September 5, 2024 • 34 mins
Rachel can't stop thinking about Brittany Cartwright.
Attorney and podcast host Dennis Vetrano is breaking down how Jax's past actions and the couple's famous reality TV show moments could play a part in their upcoming divorce. Plus, he sheds light on what it's like dealing with a narcissistic personality during divorce.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome back to another episode
of Rachel Goes Row with your host Rachel Savannah Levis.
There has been a lot of discussion surrounding Jackson Britney's
decision to split, and I wanted to bring on an
expert to talk about what it looks like from a
(00:28):
legal standpoint. Today, I have divorce attorney and podcast host
Dennis Vitrano to help me break it all down. Hi Dennis,
thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
No problem, It's gonna be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I love your content on TikTok and I love your messaging.
So happy to have you on today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Oh the feeling is mutual. Thank you so much. Yes,
I try to you always tell people, I try to
be that lawyer like you ran into me at a pub.
You know, what would I tell you about divorce, relationships,
whatever else? So try to be real.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Strange topic to be talking about on a podcast for me, anyway,
divorce isn't something that I'm that familiar with. And you know,
I talk a lot about like relationships stuff and codependency stuff,
and I'm sure you have some knowledge with that too.
But you are a divorce attorney, and so you're very
(01:19):
knowledgeable of the whole process of divorce. And I don't
know if you're you're following vander Pump Rules or The
Valley or any reality TV stuff, but two of the
cast members recently, you know, the divorce papers just became
public and so that's kind of our topic of conversation today.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yep, let's put it this way. I've always been a
fan of my wife's, it's been a huge fan of
vander Pump. So we've watched it all the way up
until just recently and we just started, you know, binging
a little bit on The Valley, so you know, obviously
read the headlines.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well it's perfect. Yeah, So from separation to divorce? How
long can that process take? Is it a long period? Typically?
What's the average?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, let's put it this way. Keep in mind on
a New York lawyer and theirs is taking place in California.
But I will say there are a lot of parallels
and a lot of similarities from state to state, although
the law is specifically different. But you know, it's funny
with separation like New York State used to have, like
you'd need to be separated for a year before you
could before you would get the divorce if you wanted
to go through a legal separation process. But I think
(02:25):
a lot of the states now have no fault divorce,
and I know California now you know, has had it
for a long time.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
What's a no fault divorce?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
No fault basically is irreconcilable differences, right. So it's funny
because New York State used to be a fault state,
which meant you'd have to prove grounds. So we would
literally have trials on infidelity, on abandonment, on crueling, and
your Maine treatment. And it's funny because you were you
were entitled to a jury trial on that, so you
(02:53):
could actually impanel a jury to determine where there grounds
enough to grant the divorce. You know what I mean
in some of those cases, Oh my god, I mean
I think trying to prove grounds. Yes, I mean, I
think with the divorce process in general, and this is
something that will be universal from state to state. It's
(03:13):
such a unique area of law, divorce and family law,
in that it's law and its emotions, and when you
get the flood of emotions involved with legal issues, it
can really be crazy expensive and time consuming and stressful.
So I mean you know, just looking in from the
outside with Jackson Britney's situation, I mean, there's so many
(03:36):
emotions there and it's really that's not much different than
the average divorce, but some obviously more than others.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So yes, I could see that. And I'm sure, like
if you're dealing with a narcissistic personality, the ego is
very heavily involved in the pride and wanting to just
be on top. And I'm sure there's a lot of
money that goes into that in a lot of time.
Like I'm sure the the whole dragging it out is
(04:02):
a power play that you've probably seen.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
One hundred percent. And it's funny because I've had people
ask me before, like, do you ever get the jerk
in your case? Do you ever get the guy or
gal that you know is like the problem, right, And
I said, yeah, you know, how do you deal with that?
I said, well, I try to point them in the
right direction to get their emotions under control, right, And
that may mean you know, mental health, counseling, treatment, et cetera.
(04:26):
And then I try to give them the right advice
and point them in the right direction. But those die
hard narcissists they're gonna treat me the same way they
treated there soon to be ex spouse. And I would
say like, look, you know, I know, you know why
this person is getting divorced, you know, and those are
the situations where you know, the money and the time
and it just piles up.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
When someone requests custody or grants their ex visitation, when
there's children involved, What could that indicate? You know?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I think, let's put it this way. The headlines that
I've read, and again I'm not involved in Brittany or
Jack's divorce and I haven't actually looked at their papers,
but from what I've seen, she's said I want custody,
but I'm willing to give him visitation. So usually for me,
if I have that client, what that will indicate to
me is they know they want that other parent to
(05:20):
be involved in the child's life because they know that
the father will be super take on in a super
important role moving forward. Right, they understand that, I think,
you know, from what they've said about the papers, it's
clear that Britney sees that. But she also sees from
what they've said is in the papers, that she needs
to have custody, she needs to be in the driver's seat,
meaning that you know, Jack's in her view, you know,
(05:43):
may have issues that need to be dealt with. So
if there's ever a circumstance where she feels that child
is unsafe or is not being well cared for, she
can step in and say, hey, I'm the custodial parent.
You have your entitlement to visitation, but look, you know
I need to do what's best for the child in
that situation. So I think that that says a couple
of different things based on what was filed in their situation.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
From what I've been told, yes, and just with the
current events, the situation that Jacks did recently come out
of a impatient facility, could that be used in the
court as support for Brittany to have custody?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Of course, of course, And I will tell you if
I was representing him. I think there's such a stigma
with mental health. By the way, I love the idea
that you're an advocate for mental health, and I feel
like it's super suit. It's such a hot button issue
and it's so important with relationships and divorces, and because
at the end of the day, all of the problems
in those situations, their underpinnings are mental health issues. So
(06:47):
I think if I was representing Jax, I would say, hey, look,
if you have an issue you know you need to
deal with. If you go into treatment and you deal
with it and you've gotten past it, you're in a
better place situation, and you're gonna look more favorable in
the eyes of the court. If you know you have
an issue, you've determined what it is, and you say, hey,
(07:08):
this is me, this is on me, I'm gonna deal
with it, and you deal with it, now that's a
plus in his you know column for me. However, if
you know you have an issue and then you check
in but you don't really want to engage, or you
check yourself back out, or you're like, well I never
really had a problem in the first place, and like,
so I guess I guess. What I'm saying is, if
(07:29):
it's ongoing untreated issues, yes, it can be used against you.
It will be used against you, and it will be
a substantial issue in the case. I think if you've
dealt with it, like I would advise him to, and
you follow through with all the recommendations, now you're saying
they judge, Hey, I'm you know, self aware enough. I'm
astute enough about my person and care enough about my
(07:53):
kid that whatever issues I may have, I've dealt with
and it's important to me.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I mean, we're using Jackson Brittany as an example to
talk about this larger topic, but I'm sure people are
very curious to see, like, is Jack's going to be
able to maintain his recovery? And I think we all
want that to be the case, but it's only going
to be a matter of time.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It is, And I think it's important for people to
realize that the Jackson Britney situation is an example of
what goes on every day in a divorce lawyer's office
or in the you know, in the courthouse, a family court.
We see these cases every day, so it's not like
and I think it's important for them to see that individually,
(08:39):
and even if they listen to the podcast, like, understand,
you're not alone. Understand you're not the first couple to
go through this situation. You're not the first person who
realized they may have some mental health issues or may
have some substance abuse issues that they need to deal
with whatever the issue is, and you will get through
it if you commit to working through it.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
When should someone file for separation versus make it official
with a divorce.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Many times what you'll see and again I we're using
their situation as an example. I think many times people
aren't quite mentally. They know mentally, they know in their head,
hey it's this is over, it's time, but like their heart,
they just can't. They just can't bring themselves to site.
I'm gonna file those divorce papers, I think. So I
(09:25):
always call like separations like you know, a divorce on
training wheels, right, because they kind of you know, all
of the separations. Because we've done a lot of separations
as well. I don't think I've ever had a separation
turn around to a reunification or a restoration of the marriage.
They've almost always went to divorce. So so in my mind,
(09:45):
I think it's your brain is telling you the marriage
is over. Your brain is telling you there's continued you know,
obligations or implications financially by staying married, But your heart's
telling you I can't quite pull that trigger yet. And
I think sometimes it's just downright out of fear. I mean,
you haven't you know. I'll use for an example, like
(10:06):
a woman in a domestically violent relationship or feeling like
they're with a narcissist or a bully or somebody a
toxic person who pushes them around. They're almost they're afraid
that the only way they can almost sell the other
person on moving in that direction was just temporary. We're
just doing a separation, just temporary, you know. And I
find that's kind of the way for them to get out,
(10:27):
you know, because they're they're afraid.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
No, that makes a lot of sense. So basically, like
the separation is a precursor to the divorce. But I'm
sure are there people that are like, no, there's no separation,
We're just getting a divorce. Like, you don't need to
necessarily take that step, you.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Know, Look, you don't end a marriage over they're leaving
the cap off the toothpaste that you don't end a
marriage over that. There are a number of different factors
you need to consider as to whether or not you
really are sure you want to divorce this person that
the you know, theoretically you've dedicated your life too. But
I think once you get there, and I think I think,
especially in my experience for women, they think about they've
(11:07):
been very introspective very thoughtful about these issues for a
long time, and by the time you get to that
place mentally where your head says, hey it's time, then
it's time. I mean, it's like, you know, forgive the
expression like rip off the band aid, it's time to
it's time to go all the way.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And then what is the difference between a separation and
a divorce.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Well, it's funny because I think a lot of people
there's so much confusion around separation. So I'll have clients
like I had one just the other day. I came
in and said, hey, we've been separated for years, said, well,
do you have an agreement that provides a legal separation
or written up agreement that provides for all of the
terms of your separation and officially saying by contract that
(11:53):
you were resolving all of the prospective issues that would
come up within the context of the divorce case. Have
you done that? And they're like, no, I just moved out. Well,
that's not really in the eyes of the low, at
least in New York State, it's not. That's not an
official separation, that's just your physically separated. So I think
it's important for people to distinguish the difference between a
physical separation a legal separation. You know, so if you
(12:18):
legally separate, you have an agreement that provides for all
of the perspective issues that may come up in the
context of the divorce case, so you're protected financially, It
provides for what's going to happen with the kids. It
provides you know who's going to live where, and as
long as you live, separate and apart pursued to that
and reasonable compliance with it by the end of the year.
You just submit divorce papers at the end of the
(12:38):
year in New York and then you're done. So it's
important for people to distinguish physical separation versus legal separation.
Legal separation is basically you're doing all the nuts and
bolts that would come up in the context of the
divorce case, but you're doing it now and then filing
for divorce later.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Makes sense. Okay, yep. Are there resources for someone thinking
about split.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It's more of a comprehensive approach, right. I think first,
you have a lot of resources you can drawn in
your own life, and I think sometimes people overlook them.
So I think you've got to find friends. You've got,
you know, friends you can count on and I think,
you know, I always say, like, you need that one
friend that's going to give you the hug, that's gonna
(13:24):
that's gonna let you cry on their shoulder when you
need it. And you need that one friend who's gonna
kick in the butt when you need it and say, hey,
get up off the ground and dust yourself off and
move forward. I do think you could benefit from a
divorce coach, and a divorce coach is kind of a
newer thing in our area. In our area of law,
divorce coaches are typically ei they're counselors or just people
(13:45):
who've been through the process who know like how to
filter things, so like, hey, you know your ex calls
yesterday and is cursing you out about visitation with the kids?
Like how much you know, what do you need to say?
Like how do you respond? How many things do you
need to engage with?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Divorce first coaches are really come in handy there rather
than calling your divorce lawyer and they're charging it five
hundred dollars an hour to talk about it. Yeah right,
yeah right, So and then I think, you know, you
have to do everything you can to keep yourself intact motivated, inspired,
(14:21):
and mentally well throughout the process. And that's where, like
your counselor will come in, you know, That's where And
I think, and I think it's important to really be
choosy with who you pick for that. I think, pick
somebody who you feel comfortable with, who's knowledgeable in whatever
issues may be coming up. You say, hey, I'm looking
for a counselor who's well versed in domestic violence, and
(14:42):
who is you know, well recommended, because that's the situation
you're in, you know, and then your counselor can help
you with that piece of it. So I think there
are resources out there, and I think most people look
at it just as hey, I need a divorce alark. Well, yeah,
you do, probably early on to give you advice. But
(15:02):
I think just as important, if not more important, you
need a counselor. You need a group of friends and
family who will support you. And you could also use
a divorce coach. And the divorce coach will also tell
you things like hey, start getting documents together, like hey,
if there is an issue with custom and visitation, you know,
get together a notebook of all the irrelevant and important
issues through the process. So I think for too long,
(15:25):
the divorce industry has put people their files on a
conveyor belt. Okay, the divorce lawyer is going to look
at this, we're gonna we reach an agreement. We'll send
you over the judge to sign off, and you're done.
And the clients are like beside themselves emotionally, like a
mental wreck, like like they can't co parent with the
(15:45):
other parent, Like they just like, Okay, but we got
your divorced. We've done our job. We're done.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, But that's not a.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Person that's dealing with a folder. These folders are people.
You need to focus on your mental wellness and and
you know how well you're doing emotionally, and get to
the other side intact, so that you see this as
not the end of your life, but a turn of
a page in your life, and you're going onto the
next thing, bigger, better things. Look at that horizon, right.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
That reframing is so important because I'm sure it's hard
to even begin the healing process. It's probably even more
traumatic going through a divorce process and the arguing and
the mediation that has to happen and all of that.
So reframing like this isn't the end of the world.
(16:36):
It's just we're getting to the end of this chapter
in your book, and eventually we're going to be able
to turn the page and it's going to be righter, bigger, brighter,
better things are on the horizon. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Can we play that back again for everybody who's out
there who's in the problem, is considering a divorce, who
was going through it, because that's exactly it. Honestly, you
hit the now right in the head saying it just synopsizing,
like what I've been thinking about the process for quite.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Sometimes when a divorce is made public, how does that
complicate things legally?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Or does it?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I mean it does insofar as a career is concerned.
It does in so far as companies are concerned. So
we you know, very frequently we have like high level corporations,
And what I will tell both parties and the attorney
on the other side is you want to work through
this in an amicable way as best you can. And
a lot of times, a lot of situations where the
kids are working in this like major company, so you
(17:46):
don't want to come out. I remember one of the
col trainings we went for one of the uh, one
of the daughter is one of the main heirs for
the Gallub Corporation, which I think, if I remember correctly,
it was like price Shopper went through a divorce, and
you you do not want your employees, your major managers,
or you know, if you're involved in a show, or
you own a restaurant, you don't want your employees knowing
(18:09):
you're about to go through a divorce or that it's
getting messy, or that they might be dividing that corporation
or they might be selling the restaurant, because then what's
gonna happen is you're gonna have a mass exodus of
employees and then you're gonna lose the company. And the
company tends to be the thing that drives everything financially.
So I say to client's in this process, it is
a different thing. You You you are not the average
(18:30):
person where you can just knock down, drag out, curse
every each other out and like not worry about it. Okay,
there's mental aguage there and there's embarrassment. But when you're
a public figure, you run running a major corporation or
you're a TV star, like your livelihood could depend on
what plays out in the press. So you know, it's
very important that you keep all of the inner workings
(18:53):
of your divorce as private as is possible. I can't
remember what celebrity divorce IM thinking it might have been
Tom Cruise divorce or something like that. I just don't remember.
But we didn't find out about the divorce process until
the agreement what's finalized. Nobody knew, and that's.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
What's supposed to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
What you should be doing is if you know you're
gonna split, behind closed doors, have respect for each other.
Listen if your emotions are totally whacked or you know,
out of control, and you're like, hey, this person with
a jerk our whole marriage, and I need to get
back at them, and I want to really stick at
the find somebody to help you get your emotions under control.
No matter what side you are on this situation, keep
(19:33):
it under wraps, keep your confidentiality, everything behind closed doors.
And believe me, not just your pocketbook, but your kids
will thank you if.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You do that. Such a good point. Thank you for that,
and probably like one of the major struggles of being
in the public eye and sharing such personal things of
your life for the world's consumption and entertainment, purposes, and
that's just one of the things that you have to sacrifice,
(20:08):
that privacy when you agree to be a public figure.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
It's funny because what I was thinking about is, you know,
we've watched all of these videos of their best moments
and their worst moments. In terms of Jackson Brittany, we've
seen them excel, we've seen them thrive, and we've seen
them struggle, and it's all been played out for the
public on TV. So the other thing that has occurred
(20:33):
to me in this process is, you know, those things
can be used in court, custody grounds, finances for yeah,
so you know, remember, once something is public and it's
out there, you've got to be very concerned about how
you know that can be used against you, and it
is a trade off and it is a sacrifice. But
(20:54):
I think for the two of them, you know, again
just using them as an example, two public figures who
we've seen the best and the worst of both of them,
which is just a human nature, right. You got to
know your you each have a lot to gain but
also a lot to lose. So now it's time to like, hey,
real talk.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Let's say, you know, Jaxson's has something he needs to
deal with in counseling. If he's dealing with it, good
for him. It's going to make him a better person,
a better father, better at everything if he if he
tackles those issues and you know, try to work through
it with Brittany in a in a way of calm
and understanding, because knowing what do you do? You do
you really want that plane out in a court rule?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, for this specific example, Brittany was the one that
served Jack's the divorce papers. Is there like certain rights
that the receiving party have in receiving the divorce papers
or how does that work? Or is there is it
just like equal?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, it's funny because I saw a piece on this. Well,
let me back up a little bit. What I was
told is that he was served on the set at work.
I don't know how true that is. There's just no
way for me to know. But I will say I've
had clients before who come to me and say, Dennis,
I want you to serve his butt at work. I
want all of his friends to see I'm not doing that.
(22:19):
I will literally tell them I'm not doing that because
I and I'm not saying that was her motivation, but
I'm saying. I have had clients who their motivation was
embarrassment and shock and annoyance, and I stick him with
those papers, and I said, I'm not doing that. And
in large part because once when you start that divorce process,
you want to start it on as even of a
(22:39):
keel as you can. It's already emotional. People are already upset,
they're already insulted. They're being served with divorce, even if
they knew it was coming, and even if they wanted
to be divorced, it's still a shock to the to
the senses, right, it's still like a blow to the ego.
So as even as you can. So what we'll typically
do is I'll send a letter and I'll say, hey,
you know, retained by your wife to start a divorce process.
(23:02):
You know, here's a copy of the papers. Please forward
these to your lawyer. Talk to your lawyer about it
so we can start working towards an amicable resolution of
your matter. And here's an enclosed document where you can
sign off and say you've received them, and then pass
them along to your lawyer. I just think keeping the
emotions as low as possible at the outset is just
a good idea, because you don't want the emotions to
start up here and then they're just gonna go higher
(23:23):
and hire and hire, and then it spins out of
control on that tit for tat throughout the process. Then
you're in this spiral of money and time and aggravation
that you need to get out of.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Sounds so toxic. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And I mean, you know, just those little things I
think you know, you're if you have the right divorce
lawyer has been through the process, they're gonna tell you
to do those things. You know, They're not gonna want
you to drive up the emotions or the or the
you know, acrimony early on at the outset. Insofar as
being served with the paper is funny because I watch
a video the other day of a guy saying, well,
(23:56):
you know, if you file first, you're you're controlling the timeline.
Know you're not. When you file first, you know what
you want to say first, and now it's going to
take the other person some time to actually process it
and respond. So in that way, you kind of you've
already had maybe spoken with a lawyer and had it
all planned out in advance, so that gives you kind
(24:17):
of a leg up, but the other side will have
an opportunity to respond. And you know, if you get
served with divorce papers, the best thing you can do is,
like you get served with them, put them aside. You
see them, Okay, put them aside, Take a deep breath again.
Assemble your your you know, I have one profession I
work what she calls it, assemble in your avengers. And
(24:38):
I think she's right in that. Get your friends together,
get your family together, get your support system together, get
a good lawyer, and then just like try to approach
the situation with calm and class and stick with that
the whole way through.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, common class.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
If one person doesn't want the divorce to be public,
do they have any say in that? Like, is there
any sort of protection?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I mean, look, there's two ways to resolve divorce cases.
You can resolve it via an agreement with the other side,
or you can have the court decide. There's also a
lot of cases that are filed, they go to court,
there's a lot of back and forth. The case can
pen for two or three or four or five years,
and you still ultimately resolve the case via an agreement
(25:36):
between the two parties. But I will tell you in
having handled divorce cases for twenty five years and thousands
of divorces, it is rare that that settlement that you
reach after two, three, four, five years you know, going
back and forth in court, is much different than the
one you could have reached outside the courthouse between two
(25:59):
knowledgeable professor and or including a mediator, without going inside
the courthouse at all. Once you keep it out of
the courthouse, you and your spouse are in control of
who knows what. Your counselor your mediator can't start telling
people what's in your file. Your lawyer can't start telling
people what's in your file. And if the two of
(26:20):
you agree together, hey, we're not telling anybody what's going
on with our divorce, Tell everybody everything's fine, and then
work through it again. The example, like I said before,
you can have all this sorted out behind closed doors
and say, yes, we've announced publicly, we've signed a separation agreement.
We'll be divorced by the end of the year. We're divorced.
(26:40):
What happened and what are the kids? It's done nothing
to talk about. So much easier, you know, and much
more fool proof for the two of you to agree
on something rather than having the courthouse try to.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I guess that would be true for like any legal case.
Correct it is.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I mean, I think you need to have a lawyer
who can advise you as to what your rights are.
Doesn't necessarily mean, you know. I always tell clients like, Okay, here,
here's the law in this area, and here are the
things you're entitled to. So let's say, for argument's sake,
you're entitled child support and the amount of three hundred
and fifty dollars a month. And but you know your
spouse is going to struggle if they have to pay
you that three fifty I always say, well, that's what
(27:23):
the law provides. But you can always say, hey, for
me to live well and for them to be able
to survive, I'll just do three hundred a month. Right.
That's a way to find a middle ground that works
for both of you, and then you walk away from
that situation with an amicable resolution that you're much more
likely to comply with that nobody really has to know
about two of you agree to it, and that it's
(27:43):
between the two of you.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
As a divorce attorney, do you advise people to go
into a marriage with a prenup? I do I do.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
And it's funny because what I'm getting a lot of
now are young professionals who haven't really quite made their way.
So for example, I've I've, you know, represented a couple
of people who, hey, I just started a real estate company.
I only have one or two holdings, but you know,
I'm a real estate professional and I continue to acquire
real estate. So I want to make sure that you know,
whatever happens in terms of what I make on my
(28:17):
side is kept on my side. But I'll do you
one better. I think one of the main reasons why
a prenup is important is for understanding. I think our
problem maybe in the US more than anywhere else, But
then again that's really only my only experience is that
we don't make sure we're on the same page from
(28:38):
the outset. And I think the finances are part of it.
You know, you need to know what you expect from
each other. Just have a mutual understanding. You know, do
you want to know whether you're you know, soon to
be a husband or wife has fifty thousand dollars in debt?
Do you want to know if you know if they're
if the way they pay their bills is by selling drugs.
I mean, I'm using an extreme example for a but
(29:00):
don't you want to know where their source of income
comes from, what their background is, their assets, their liabilities,
And that goes on both sides, you know, And it
may be a situation where you say, hey, you know,
take back my you go back to my example. You're
a real estate professional. You know you're gonna make a
million dollars and I'm going to help you do it
because I'm going to work in the office. I'm going
(29:21):
to do the paperwork. I'm let's say, husband or wife,
vice versa, doesn't matter if you're working in that way.
Maybe at the end of the day you say, hey,
if we end up getting divorced, I just want to
make sure all of my efforts are being compensated so
that I can live too, because I've helped create this together.
And if that's the case, great, Just have that understanding.
The prenap is about being open and honest with each
(29:43):
other at the outset and knowing what you expect from
each other. And that's the key to a long lasting relationship,
having those tough conversations, being willing to be totally transparent
with your soon to be husband.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Or wife.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
That's what leads to strong, long lasting marriages.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Great advice this podcast recording specifically may be of interest
to somebody who is going through a divorce right now,
I would guess. But I also have a lot of
listeners that are here for like the relationship advice. So,
since you've seen many divorces, do you have any advice
(30:24):
for someone who is dating to get married and what
to look for in a partner just from an attorney's
point of view.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Well, let's put it this way. It's going to come
back to what we were talking about at the outset, how
important mental health is right now. And players go, so, wow,
I don't have any mental health issues. I need to
see accounts, Larable Live, no diagnosis. Okay, But when I
say mental health, what I mean is how healthy are you?
How do you feel about your life? How grounded are you?
(30:57):
How well do you know yourself? Because you can't possibly
think that you're in the best position to choose the
right lifelong partner until you know yourself. Once you know yourself, well,
then therefore you can know what you want out of
another person for the rest of your life. That's the
(31:19):
only way really, So I think my advice is not
doesn't begin with what you look for in the other person.
It begins with looking inward. It begins with being comfortable
in your own skin. It begins with truly becoming the
person you want to be. So people say, you know
in relationship, well, you know, we got divorced because we
(31:42):
changed over time, and I want you to do your
level best to know who you are. Yes, And that
may take unpacking some baggage from your childhood. It may
take working with a counselor it may take just dating
different people. You know, I think you can date to
want to get married, But the dating, in large part,
(32:07):
I think is a way to determine what you want
and what you don't want.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I heard this great advice that was basically like, write
down all of the things that you want in your
ideal partner and then look at that list, and instead
of looking for that in somebody else, start doing that
to become that person for yourself. Ooh, because then you're
(32:34):
going to track that type of partner.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yep, yep. It's funny because I tell people like so so,
I did a piece just recently, and a lot of
people are going to hate this. It says don't date
the ugly guy. And what do I mean by that.
I don't mean like the ugly guy physically. I just
mean don't go out there looking to settle every relationship.
(32:58):
I shouldn't say every, but most relationships that I've seen
fail or those types of relationships on average ten to
fail because you're trying to settle. What I'd rather you
do is level up, like try to try to be
the best you you can be. Don't look downward because
as you're as you're looking to settle, you're exuding lack
(33:20):
of confidence. You're not exuding your full self. Look to
get what you really want, and then you will. You
will subconsciously exude that and you will attract that type
of person. And when you do that, you're going to
find your more on the same level. So again not
physically the ugly guy. But you know what I mean.
You listen, go out there and be confident, own it,
(33:42):
know who you are, know who you are, and be
it and live it, and that will lead you to
the right person that you belong with.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes, and respect yourself enough to set boundaries and be
willing to let go of the person that is not
right for you instead of clinging and hanging on when
you know it's not right.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
It would be more aggressive about that, I said, be
willing to give them the boot. But that's okay, Yes, yes, yes,
let him go, Let him go.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Thank you so much, Dennis for joining me today. I
really enjoyed your insight as a divorce attorney. It's been
a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, you too, And I'd actually like to try to
get you on my podcast if I could, to talk
about mental health issues. I really think it's a hot
button issue and I think you'd have a lot to
offer there. So it's just so important. It's such an
integral piece of relationships and divorce and people don't see
it as such, but as you dig under the levels,
that's what it is.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
So what is your podcast title?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
DRV Law The DRV Law Show.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Awesome, good to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue.
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
at Rachel Goes Rogue Podcast.
This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome back to another episode
of Rachel Goes Row with your host Rachel Savannah Levis.
There has been a lot of discussion surrounding Jackson Britney's
decision to split, and I wanted to bring on an
expert to talk about what it looks like from a
(00:28):
legal standpoint. Today, I have divorce attorney and podcast host
Dennis Vitrano to help me break it all down. Hi Dennis,
thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
No problem, It's gonna be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I love your content on TikTok and I love your messaging.
So happy to have you on today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Oh the feeling is mutual. Thank you so much. Yes,
I try to you always tell people, I try to
be that lawyer like you ran into me at a pub.
You know, what would I tell you about divorce, relationships,
whatever else? So try to be real.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Strange topic to be talking about on a podcast for me, anyway,
divorce isn't something that I'm that familiar with. And you know,
I talk a lot about like relationships stuff and codependency stuff,
and I'm sure you have some knowledge with that too.
But you are a divorce attorney, and so you're very
(01:19):
knowledgeable of the whole process of divorce. And I don't
know if you're you're following vander Pump Rules or The
Valley or any reality TV stuff, but two of the
cast members recently, you know, the divorce papers just became
public and so that's kind of our topic of conversation today.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yep, let's put it this way. I've always been a
fan of my wife's, it's been a huge fan of
vander Pump. So we've watched it all the way up
until just recently and we just started, you know, binging
a little bit on The Valley, so you know, obviously
read the headlines.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well it's perfect. Yeah, So from separation to divorce? How
long can that process take? Is it a long period? Typically?
What's the average?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, let's put it this way. Keep in mind on
a New York lawyer and theirs is taking place in California.
But I will say there are a lot of parallels
and a lot of similarities from state to state, although
the law is specifically different. But you know, it's funny
with separation like New York State used to have, like
you'd need to be separated for a year before you
could before you would get the divorce if you wanted
to go through a legal separation process. But I think
(02:25):
a lot of the states now have no fault divorce,
and I know California now you know, has had it
for a long time.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
What's a no fault divorce?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
No fault basically is irreconcilable differences, right. So it's funny
because New York State used to be a fault state,
which meant you'd have to prove grounds. So we would
literally have trials on infidelity, on abandonment, on crueling, and
your Maine treatment. And it's funny because you were you
were entitled to a jury trial on that, so you
(02:53):
could actually impanel a jury to determine where there grounds
enough to grant the divorce. You know what I mean
in some of those cases, Oh my god, I mean
I think trying to prove grounds. Yes, I mean, I
think with the divorce process in general, and this is
something that will be universal from state to state. It's
(03:13):
such a unique area of law, divorce and family law,
in that it's law and its emotions, and when you
get the flood of emotions involved with legal issues, it
can really be crazy expensive and time consuming and stressful.
So I mean you know, just looking in from the
outside with Jackson Britney's situation, I mean, there's so many
(03:36):
emotions there and it's really that's not much different than
the average divorce, but some obviously more than others.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So yes, I could see that. And I'm sure, like
if you're dealing with a narcissistic personality, the ego is
very heavily involved in the pride and wanting to just
be on top. And I'm sure there's a lot of
money that goes into that in a lot of time.
Like I'm sure the the whole dragging it out is
(04:02):
a power play that you've probably seen.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
One hundred percent. And it's funny because I've had people
ask me before, like, do you ever get the jerk
in your case? Do you ever get the guy or
gal that you know is like the problem, right, And
I said, yeah, you know, how do you deal with that?
I said, well, I try to point them in the
right direction to get their emotions under control, right, And
that may mean you know, mental health, counseling, treatment, et cetera.
(04:26):
And then I try to give them the right advice
and point them in the right direction. But those die
hard narcissists they're gonna treat me the same way they
treated there soon to be ex spouse. And I would
say like, look, you know, I know, you know why
this person is getting divorced, you know, and those are
the situations where you know, the money and the time
and it just piles up.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
When someone requests custody or grants their ex visitation, when
there's children involved, What could that indicate? You know?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I think, let's put it this way. The headlines that
I've read, and again I'm not involved in Brittany or
Jack's divorce and I haven't actually looked at their papers,
but from what I've seen, she's said I want custody,
but I'm willing to give him visitation. So usually for me,
if I have that client, what that will indicate to
me is they know they want that other parent to
(05:20):
be involved in the child's life because they know that
the father will be super take on in a super
important role moving forward. Right, they understand that, I think,
you know, from what they've said about the papers, it's
clear that Britney sees that. But she also sees from
what they've said is in the papers, that she needs
to have custody, she needs to be in the driver's seat,
meaning that you know, Jack's in her view, you know,
(05:43):
may have issues that need to be dealt with. So
if there's ever a circumstance where she feels that child
is unsafe or is not being well cared for, she
can step in and say, hey, I'm the custodial parent.
You have your entitlement to visitation, but look, you know
I need to do what's best for the child in
that situation. So I think that that says a couple
of different things based on what was filed in their situation.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
From what I've been told, yes, and just with the
current events, the situation that Jacks did recently come out
of a impatient facility, could that be used in the
court as support for Brittany to have custody?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Of course, of course, And I will tell you if
I was representing him. I think there's such a stigma
with mental health. By the way, I love the idea
that you're an advocate for mental health, and I feel
like it's super suit. It's such a hot button issue
and it's so important with relationships and divorces, and because
at the end of the day, all of the problems
in those situations, their underpinnings are mental health issues. So
(06:47):
I think if I was representing Jax, I would say, hey, look,
if you have an issue you know you need to
deal with. If you go into treatment and you deal
with it and you've gotten past it, you're in a
better place situation, and you're gonna look more favorable in
the eyes of the court. If you know you have
an issue, you've determined what it is, and you say, hey,
(07:08):
this is me, this is on me, I'm gonna deal
with it, and you deal with it, now that's a
plus in his you know column for me. However, if
you know you have an issue and then you check
in but you don't really want to engage, or you
check yourself back out, or you're like, well I never
really had a problem in the first place, and like,
so I guess I guess. What I'm saying is, if
(07:29):
it's ongoing untreated issues, yes, it can be used against you.
It will be used against you, and it will be
a substantial issue in the case. I think if you've
dealt with it, like I would advise him to, and
you follow through with all the recommendations, now you're saying
they judge, Hey, I'm you know, self aware enough. I'm
astute enough about my person and care enough about my
(07:53):
kid that whatever issues I may have, I've dealt with
and it's important to me.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I mean, we're using Jackson Brittany as an example to
talk about this larger topic, but I'm sure people are
very curious to see, like, is Jack's going to be
able to maintain his recovery? And I think we all
want that to be the case, but it's only going
to be a matter of time.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It is, And I think it's important for people to
realize that the Jackson Britney situation is an example of
what goes on every day in a divorce lawyer's office
or in the you know, in the courthouse, a family court.
We see these cases every day, so it's not like
and I think it's important for them to see that individually,
(08:39):
and even if they listen to the podcast, like, understand,
you're not alone. Understand you're not the first couple to
go through this situation. You're not the first person who
realized they may have some mental health issues or may
have some substance abuse issues that they need to deal
with whatever the issue is, and you will get through
it if you commit to working through it.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
When should someone file for separation versus make it official
with a divorce.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Many times what you'll see and again I we're using
their situation as an example. I think many times people
aren't quite mentally. They know mentally, they know in their head,
hey it's this is over, it's time, but like their heart,
they just can't. They just can't bring themselves to site.
I'm gonna file those divorce papers, I think. So I
(09:25):
always call like separations like you know, a divorce on
training wheels, right, because they kind of you know, all
of the separations. Because we've done a lot of separations
as well. I don't think I've ever had a separation
turn around to a reunification or a restoration of the marriage.
They've almost always went to divorce. So so in my mind,
(09:45):
I think it's your brain is telling you the marriage
is over. Your brain is telling you there's continued you know,
obligations or implications financially by staying married, But your heart's
telling you I can't quite pull that trigger yet. And
I think sometimes it's just downright out of fear. I mean,
you haven't you know. I'll use for an example, like
(10:06):
a woman in a domestically violent relationship or feeling like
they're with a narcissist or a bully or somebody a
toxic person who pushes them around. They're almost they're afraid
that the only way they can almost sell the other
person on moving in that direction was just temporary. We're
just doing a separation, just temporary, you know. And I
find that's kind of the way for them to get out,
(10:27):
you know, because they're they're afraid.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
No, that makes a lot of sense. So basically, like
the separation is a precursor to the divorce. But I'm
sure are there people that are like, no, there's no separation,
We're just getting a divorce. Like, you don't need to
necessarily take that step, you.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Know, Look, you don't end a marriage over they're leaving
the cap off the toothpaste that you don't end a
marriage over that. There are a number of different factors
you need to consider as to whether or not you
really are sure you want to divorce this person that
the you know, theoretically you've dedicated your life too. But
I think once you get there, and I think I think,
especially in my experience for women, they think about they've
(11:07):
been very introspective very thoughtful about these issues for a
long time, and by the time you get to that
place mentally where your head says, hey it's time, then
it's time. I mean, it's like, you know, forgive the
expression like rip off the band aid, it's time to
it's time to go all the way.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And then what is the difference between a separation and
a divorce.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Well, it's funny because I think a lot of people
there's so much confusion around separation. So I'll have clients
like I had one just the other day. I came
in and said, hey, we've been separated for years, said, well,
do you have an agreement that provides a legal separation
or written up agreement that provides for all of the
terms of your separation and officially saying by contract that
(11:53):
you were resolving all of the prospective issues that would
come up within the context of the divorce case. Have
you done that? And they're like, no, I just moved out. Well,
that's not really in the eyes of the low, at
least in New York State, it's not. That's not an
official separation, that's just your physically separated. So I think
it's important for people to distinguish the difference between a
physical separation a legal separation. You know, so if you
(12:18):
legally separate, you have an agreement that provides for all
of the perspective issues that may come up in the
context of the divorce case, so you're protected financially, It
provides for what's going to happen with the kids. It
provides you know who's going to live where, and as
long as you live, separate and apart pursued to that
and reasonable compliance with it by the end of the year.
You just submit divorce papers at the end of the
(12:38):
year in New York and then you're done. So it's
important for people to distinguish physical separation versus legal separation.
Legal separation is basically you're doing all the nuts and
bolts that would come up in the context of the
divorce case, but you're doing it now and then filing
for divorce later.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Makes sense. Okay, yep. Are there resources for someone thinking
about split.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It's more of a comprehensive approach, right. I think first,
you have a lot of resources you can drawn in
your own life, and I think sometimes people overlook them.
So I think you've got to find friends. You've got,
you know, friends you can count on and I think,
you know, I always say, like, you need that one
friend that's going to give you the hug, that's gonna
(13:24):
that's gonna let you cry on their shoulder when you
need it. And you need that one friend who's gonna
kick in the butt when you need it and say, hey,
get up off the ground and dust yourself off and
move forward. I do think you could benefit from a
divorce coach, and a divorce coach is kind of a
newer thing in our area. In our area of law,
divorce coaches are typically ei they're counselors or just people
(13:45):
who've been through the process who know like how to
filter things, so like, hey, you know your ex calls
yesterday and is cursing you out about visitation with the kids?
Like how much you know, what do you need to say?
Like how do you respond? How many things do you
need to engage with?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Divorce first coaches are really come in handy there rather
than calling your divorce lawyer and they're charging it five
hundred dollars an hour to talk about it. Yeah right,
yeah right, So and then I think, you know, you
have to do everything you can to keep yourself intact motivated, inspired,
(14:21):
and mentally well throughout the process. And that's where, like
your counselor will come in, you know, That's where And
I think, and I think it's important to really be
choosy with who you pick for that. I think, pick
somebody who you feel comfortable with, who's knowledgeable in whatever
issues may be coming up. You say, hey, I'm looking
for a counselor who's well versed in domestic violence, and
(14:42):
who is you know, well recommended, because that's the situation
you're in, you know, and then your counselor can help
you with that piece of it. So I think there
are resources out there, and I think most people look
at it just as hey, I need a divorce alark. Well, yeah,
you do, probably early on to give you advice. But
(15:02):
I think just as important, if not more important, you
need a counselor. You need a group of friends and
family who will support you. And you could also use
a divorce coach. And the divorce coach will also tell
you things like hey, start getting documents together, like hey,
if there is an issue with custom and visitation, you know,
get together a notebook of all the irrelevant and important
issues through the process. So I think for too long,
(15:25):
the divorce industry has put people their files on a
conveyor belt. Okay, the divorce lawyer is going to look
at this, we're gonna we reach an agreement. We'll send
you over the judge to sign off, and you're done.
And the clients are like beside themselves emotionally, like a
mental wreck, like like they can't co parent with the
(15:45):
other parent, Like they just like, Okay, but we got
your divorced. We've done our job. We're done.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, But that's not a.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Person that's dealing with a folder. These folders are people.
You need to focus on your mental wellness and and
you know how well you're doing emotionally, and get to
the other side intact, so that you see this as
not the end of your life, but a turn of
a page in your life, and you're going onto the
next thing, bigger, better things. Look at that horizon, right.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
That reframing is so important because I'm sure it's hard
to even begin the healing process. It's probably even more
traumatic going through a divorce process and the arguing and
the mediation that has to happen and all of that.
So reframing like this isn't the end of the world.
(16:36):
It's just we're getting to the end of this chapter
in your book, and eventually we're going to be able
to turn the page and it's going to be righter, bigger, brighter,
better things are on the horizon. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Can we play that back again for everybody who's out
there who's in the problem, is considering a divorce, who
was going through it, because that's exactly it. Honestly, you
hit the now right in the head saying it just synopsizing,
like what I've been thinking about the process for quite.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Sometimes when a divorce is made public, how does that
complicate things legally?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Or does it?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I mean it does insofar as a career is concerned.
It does in so far as companies are concerned. So
we you know, very frequently we have like high level corporations,
And what I will tell both parties and the attorney
on the other side is you want to work through
this in an amicable way as best you can. And
a lot of times, a lot of situations where the
kids are working in this like major company, so you
(17:46):
don't want to come out. I remember one of the
col trainings we went for one of the uh, one
of the daughter is one of the main heirs for
the Gallub Corporation, which I think, if I remember correctly,
it was like price Shopper went through a divorce, and
you you do not want your employees, your major managers,
or you know, if you're involved in a show, or
you own a restaurant, you don't want your employees knowing
(18:09):
you're about to go through a divorce or that it's
getting messy, or that they might be dividing that corporation
or they might be selling the restaurant, because then what's
gonna happen is you're gonna have a mass exodus of
employees and then you're gonna lose the company. And the
company tends to be the thing that drives everything financially.
So I say to client's in this process, it is
a different thing. You You you are not the average
(18:30):
person where you can just knock down, drag out, curse
every each other out and like not worry about it. Okay,
there's mental aguage there and there's embarrassment. But when you're
a public figure, you run running a major corporation or
you're a TV star, like your livelihood could depend on
what plays out in the press. So you know, it's
very important that you keep all of the inner workings
(18:53):
of your divorce as private as is possible. I can't
remember what celebrity divorce IM thinking it might have been
Tom Cruise divorce or something like that. I just don't remember.
But we didn't find out about the divorce process until
the agreement what's finalized. Nobody knew, and that's.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
What's supposed to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
What you should be doing is if you know you're
gonna split, behind closed doors, have respect for each other.
Listen if your emotions are totally whacked or you know,
out of control, and you're like, hey, this person with
a jerk our whole marriage, and I need to get
back at them, and I want to really stick at
the find somebody to help you get your emotions under control.
No matter what side you are on this situation, keep
(19:33):
it under wraps, keep your confidentiality, everything behind closed doors.
And believe me, not just your pocketbook, but your kids
will thank you if.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You do that. Such a good point. Thank you for that,
and probably like one of the major struggles of being
in the public eye and sharing such personal things of
your life for the world's consumption and entertainment, purposes, and
that's just one of the things that you have to sacrifice,
(20:08):
that privacy when you agree to be a public figure.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
It's funny because what I was thinking about is, you know,
we've watched all of these videos of their best moments
and their worst moments. In terms of Jackson Brittany, we've
seen them excel, we've seen them thrive, and we've seen
them struggle, and it's all been played out for the
public on TV. So the other thing that has occurred
(20:33):
to me in this process is, you know, those things
can be used in court, custody grounds, finances for yeah,
so you know, remember, once something is public and it's
out there, you've got to be very concerned about how
you know that can be used against you, and it
is a trade off and it is a sacrifice. But
(20:54):
I think for the two of them, you know, again
just using them as an example, two public figures who
we've seen the best and the worst of both of them,
which is just a human nature, right. You got to
know your you each have a lot to gain but
also a lot to lose. So now it's time to like, hey,
real talk.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Let's say, you know, Jaxson's has something he needs to
deal with in counseling. If he's dealing with it, good
for him. It's going to make him a better person,
a better father, better at everything if he if he
tackles those issues and you know, try to work through
it with Brittany in a in a way of calm
and understanding, because knowing what do you do? You do
you really want that plane out in a court rule?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, for this specific example, Brittany was the one that
served Jack's the divorce papers. Is there like certain rights
that the receiving party have in receiving the divorce papers
or how does that work? Or is there is it
just like equal?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, it's funny because I saw a piece on this. Well,
let me back up a little bit. What I was
told is that he was served on the set at work.
I don't know how true that is. There's just no
way for me to know. But I will say I've
had clients before who come to me and say, Dennis,
I want you to serve his butt at work. I
want all of his friends to see I'm not doing that.
(22:19):
I will literally tell them I'm not doing that because
I and I'm not saying that was her motivation, but
I'm saying. I have had clients who their motivation was
embarrassment and shock and annoyance, and I stick him with
those papers, and I said, I'm not doing that. And
in large part because once when you start that divorce process,
you want to start it on as even of a
(22:39):
keel as you can. It's already emotional. People are already upset,
they're already insulted. They're being served with divorce, even if
they knew it was coming, and even if they wanted
to be divorced, it's still a shock to the to
the senses, right, it's still like a blow to the ego.
So as even as you can. So what we'll typically
do is I'll send a letter and I'll say, hey,
you know, retained by your wife to start a divorce process.
(23:02):
You know, here's a copy of the papers. Please forward
these to your lawyer. Talk to your lawyer about it
so we can start working towards an amicable resolution of
your matter. And here's an enclosed document where you can
sign off and say you've received them, and then pass
them along to your lawyer. I just think keeping the
emotions as low as possible at the outset is just
a good idea, because you don't want the emotions to
start up here and then they're just gonna go higher
(23:23):
and hire and hire, and then it spins out of
control on that tit for tat throughout the process. Then
you're in this spiral of money and time and aggravation
that you need to get out of.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Sounds so toxic. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And I mean, you know, just those little things I
think you know, you're if you have the right divorce
lawyer has been through the process, they're gonna tell you
to do those things. You know, They're not gonna want
you to drive up the emotions or the or the
you know, acrimony early on at the outset. Insofar as
being served with the paper is funny because I watch
a video the other day of a guy saying, well,
(23:56):
you know, if you file first, you're you're controlling the timeline.
Know you're not. When you file first, you know what
you want to say first, and now it's going to
take the other person some time to actually process it
and respond. So in that way, you kind of you've
already had maybe spoken with a lawyer and had it
all planned out in advance, so that gives you kind
(24:17):
of a leg up, but the other side will have
an opportunity to respond. And you know, if you get
served with divorce papers, the best thing you can do is,
like you get served with them, put them aside. You
see them, Okay, put them aside, Take a deep breath again.
Assemble your your you know, I have one profession I
work what she calls it, assemble in your avengers. And
(24:38):
I think she's right in that. Get your friends together,
get your family together, get your support system together, get
a good lawyer, and then just like try to approach
the situation with calm and class and stick with that
the whole way through.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, common class.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
If one person doesn't want the divorce to be public,
do they have any say in that? Like, is there
any sort of protection?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I mean, look, there's two ways to resolve divorce cases.
You can resolve it via an agreement with the other side,
or you can have the court decide. There's also a
lot of cases that are filed, they go to court,
there's a lot of back and forth. The case can
pen for two or three or four or five years,
and you still ultimately resolve the case via an agreement
(25:36):
between the two parties. But I will tell you in
having handled divorce cases for twenty five years and thousands
of divorces, it is rare that that settlement that you
reach after two, three, four, five years you know, going
back and forth in court, is much different than the
one you could have reached outside the courthouse between two
(25:59):
knowledgeable professor and or including a mediator, without going inside
the courthouse at all. Once you keep it out of
the courthouse, you and your spouse are in control of
who knows what. Your counselor your mediator can't start telling
people what's in your file. Your lawyer can't start telling
people what's in your file. And if the two of
(26:20):
you agree together, hey, we're not telling anybody what's going
on with our divorce, Tell everybody everything's fine, and then
work through it again. The example, like I said before,
you can have all this sorted out behind closed doors
and say, yes, we've announced publicly, we've signed a separation agreement.
We'll be divorced by the end of the year. We're divorced.
(26:40):
What happened and what are the kids? It's done nothing
to talk about. So much easier, you know, and much
more fool proof for the two of you to agree
on something rather than having the courthouse try to.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I guess that would be true for like any legal case.
Correct it is.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I mean, I think you need to have a lawyer
who can advise you as to what your rights are.
Doesn't necessarily mean, you know. I always tell clients like, Okay, here,
here's the law in this area, and here are the
things you're entitled to. So let's say, for argument's sake,
you're entitled child support and the amount of three hundred
and fifty dollars a month. And but you know your
spouse is going to struggle if they have to pay
you that three fifty I always say, well, that's what
(27:23):
the law provides. But you can always say, hey, for
me to live well and for them to be able
to survive, I'll just do three hundred a month. Right.
That's a way to find a middle ground that works
for both of you, and then you walk away from
that situation with an amicable resolution that you're much more
likely to comply with that nobody really has to know
about two of you agree to it, and that it's
(27:43):
between the two of you.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
As a divorce attorney, do you advise people to go
into a marriage with a prenup? I do I do.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
And it's funny because what I'm getting a lot of
now are young professionals who haven't really quite made their way.
So for example, I've I've, you know, represented a couple
of people who, hey, I just started a real estate company.
I only have one or two holdings, but you know,
I'm a real estate professional and I continue to acquire
real estate. So I want to make sure that you know,
whatever happens in terms of what I make on my
(28:17):
side is kept on my side. But I'll do you
one better. I think one of the main reasons why
a prenup is important is for understanding. I think our
problem maybe in the US more than anywhere else, But
then again that's really only my only experience is that
we don't make sure we're on the same page from
(28:38):
the outset. And I think the finances are part of it.
You know, you need to know what you expect from
each other. Just have a mutual understanding. You know, do
you want to know whether you're you know, soon to
be a husband or wife has fifty thousand dollars in debt?
Do you want to know if you know if they're
if the way they pay their bills is by selling drugs.
I mean, I'm using an extreme example for a but
(29:00):
don't you want to know where their source of income
comes from, what their background is, their assets, their liabilities,
And that goes on both sides, you know, And it
may be a situation where you say, hey, you know,
take back my you go back to my example. You're
a real estate professional. You know you're gonna make a
million dollars and I'm going to help you do it
because I'm going to work in the office. I'm going
(29:21):
to do the paperwork. I'm let's say, husband or wife,
vice versa, doesn't matter if you're working in that way.
Maybe at the end of the day you say, hey,
if we end up getting divorced, I just want to
make sure all of my efforts are being compensated so
that I can live too, because I've helped create this together.
And if that's the case, great, Just have that understanding.
The prenap is about being open and honest with each
(29:43):
other at the outset and knowing what you expect from
each other. And that's the key to a long lasting relationship,
having those tough conversations, being willing to be totally transparent
with your soon to be husband.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Or wife.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
That's what leads to strong, long lasting marriages.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Great advice this podcast recording specifically may be of interest
to somebody who is going through a divorce right now,
I would guess. But I also have a lot of
listeners that are here for like the relationship advice. So,
since you've seen many divorces, do you have any advice
(30:24):
for someone who is dating to get married and what
to look for in a partner just from an attorney's
point of view.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Well, let's put it this way. It's going to come
back to what we were talking about at the outset, how
important mental health is right now. And players go, so, wow,
I don't have any mental health issues. I need to
see accounts, Larable Live, no diagnosis. Okay, But when I
say mental health, what I mean is how healthy are you?
How do you feel about your life? How grounded are you?
(30:57):
How well do you know yourself? Because you can't possibly
think that you're in the best position to choose the
right lifelong partner until you know yourself. Once you know yourself, well,
then therefore you can know what you want out of
another person for the rest of your life. That's the
(31:19):
only way really, So I think my advice is not
doesn't begin with what you look for in the other person.
It begins with looking inward. It begins with being comfortable
in your own skin. It begins with truly becoming the
person you want to be. So people say, you know
in relationship, well, you know, we got divorced because we
(31:42):
changed over time, and I want you to do your
level best to know who you are. Yes, And that
may take unpacking some baggage from your childhood. It may
take working with a counselor it may take just dating
different people. You know, I think you can date to
want to get married, But the dating, in large part,
(32:07):
I think is a way to determine what you want
and what you don't want.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I heard this great advice that was basically like, write
down all of the things that you want in your
ideal partner and then look at that list, and instead
of looking for that in somebody else, start doing that
to become that person for yourself. Ooh, because then you're
(32:34):
going to track that type of partner.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yep, yep. It's funny because I tell people like so so,
I did a piece just recently, and a lot of
people are going to hate this. It says don't date
the ugly guy. And what do I mean by that.
I don't mean like the ugly guy physically. I just
mean don't go out there looking to settle every relationship.
(32:58):
I shouldn't say every, but most relationships that I've seen
fail or those types of relationships on average ten to
fail because you're trying to settle. What I'd rather you
do is level up, like try to try to be
the best you you can be. Don't look downward because
as you're as you're looking to settle, you're exuding lack
(33:20):
of confidence. You're not exuding your full self. Look to
get what you really want, and then you will. You
will subconsciously exude that and you will attract that type
of person. And when you do that, you're going to
find your more on the same level. So again not
physically the ugly guy. But you know what I mean.
You listen, go out there and be confident, own it,
(33:42):
know who you are, know who you are, and be
it and live it, and that will lead you to
the right person that you belong with.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes, and respect yourself enough to set boundaries and be
willing to let go of the person that is not
right for you instead of clinging and hanging on when
you know it's not right.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
It would be more aggressive about that, I said, be
willing to give them the boot. But that's okay, Yes, yes, yes,
let him go, Let him go.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Thank you so much, Dennis for joining me today. I
really enjoyed your insight as a divorce attorney. It's been
a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, you too, And I'd actually like to try to
get you on my podcast if I could, to talk
about mental health issues. I really think it's a hot
button issue and I think you'd have a lot to
offer there. So it's just so important. It's such an
integral piece of relationships and divorce and people don't see
it as such, but as you dig under the levels,
that's what it is.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
So what is your podcast title?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
DRV Law The DRV Law Show.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Awesome, good to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue.
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