November 22, 2022 • 33 mins
Happy Thanksgiving! Rashad is away for the holiday so Lindsay's special guest is superstar sports attorney Darren Heitner, who joins The Bag to discuss the evolving NIL landscape, and how being attractive & instagrammable isn't as important as being able to deliver on the court and for brands. New college stars like Livvy Dunne and the Cavinder Twins are raking in millions in endorsements and changing the face of college sports. Plus, the World Cup is starting! And Qatar's last minute decision to not allow alcohol sales at stadiums may lead to massive retribution from Budweiser. Want to know more? Get in The Bag!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Never lover. Good good, Hey, guys, welcome to another episode
of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio's The Bag with
(00:21):
Me Lindsy McCormick and my co host Rashaw Jennings, who
is not with us this week due to holiday travel,
and he held down the fort last week for me
when I was suffering with the flu on my honeymoon,
which those two words don't really combine well, but you know,
it is life, and we're back and I really appreciate
(00:42):
Rashad and David Meltzer taking care of business and talking
about business in the process. But today we have an
extra special guest that I am really excited for you
guys to get to hear his take on so many
different and things, from what's going on with the World
(01:03):
Cup and Quitar to in I L deals, which has
been a very hot topic of discussion, and there's no
one who knows more about this than our guest today,
Darren Heitner, who is an athlete lawyer to some of
the biggest names in the industry, from Drew Rosenhouse, Draymond Green, Um,
(01:25):
ju Juice Smith, Antonio Brown, Johnny manzel Terrell Owens. I
could go on and on with the guys that you
have worked for, Darren and I. I wish we had
longer because I'd love to pick your brain about so many,
so many things. But before we dive into talking about
your thoughts on FIFA and Qatar and your perspective as
(01:48):
a lawyer, I wanted to get your take on. I
want to hear your story. I want to hear how
you got here. Why why sports? Why sports law? Well,
I'll provide the abridged version. UM. I've always been very
interested in sports and laws separately, so to be able
(02:09):
to combine my two passions was easily a dream job
for me. And initially when I decided to go straight
from undergrad to law school and I went to University
of Florida for both, I had this impression that I
was going to create a sports agency, which I did,
build that up throughout my three years of law school,
and then do that for the rest of my life.
(02:31):
I quickly learned after those three years, and I'd say
about a year afterwards, that it actually was not was
not for me. Uh, the sleepless nights, the exorbitant amount
of money to be spent in recruiting and maintaining these individuals, UM,
how fickle they can oftentimes be, and and shifting from
agent to agent, and ultimately decided to pivot and use
(02:52):
my law degree to practice law, and instead of burning
bridges with a lot of the people that I was
competing against at the time, I maintained relationships and turned
them into clients of mind. And it's actually been probably
the best source of athlete clientele for me is having
those agents and their agencies be my clients. And it's
(03:13):
been a difficult balance to an extent, because working with
so many different agents who are competing against each other,
sometimes they may lack trust or be concerned, but I've
tried to be very cautious in terms of maintaining confidentiality
and respect and trust and it's worked out for roughly
twelve years. Over twelve years now. So what are A
(03:38):
lot of people have an idea of what a sports
agent does, but what does a sports lawyer do? Yeah,
so it's a great question. A sports agent is really
responsible for procuring finding deals on the marketing side and
then also negotiating professional team con tracts. And for the
(04:01):
work that an agent does, the agent receives a commission
when it's a team contract. Those commissions are oftentimes capped
by the players associations that serve as the unions representing
those players. On the marketing side, there is no cap
uh and it's so from an agent's perspective, their source
of revenue is really in the form of those percentage commissions.
(04:24):
Where I come in is handled pretty much everything else.
If there's a transaction that needs to be reviewed and
negotiated and the legal language revised or drafted, I'm handling
those contracts. If there's intellectual property in the form of trademarks,
If if an athletes creating a brand and needs protection
surrounding that, or is in the realm of creating content
(04:46):
and needs protection on a copyright side, we're helping there.
We're also enforcing when people are using athletes names, images
and likenesses without permission, so that would be a right
of publicity issue. And then a lot of litigation an arbitration.
There's a lot of disputes that don't really reach the
public because they primarily occur in confidential arbitration, and we
(05:09):
handle a ton of that um. In fact, I have
a couple of arbitration final hearings coming up before the
close of November between agents and players or agencies against
each other. So that's sort of the hardcore sports law
that a lot of people don't don't appreciate. Do you
think the industry is going to get to a place
where people are just hiring Rashod, for example, did away
(05:33):
with his agent negotiated his own contract. Do you think
the industry is going to get to a place where
people just hire sports lawyers and don't even need an agent.
It's an excellent question, and it's come up from time
to time, at least for as long as I've been
covering the industry. I remember, going back many years ago,
(05:54):
matt Elam coming out of the University of Florida, decided
to go out on his own, but had the assistance
of his brother abe Elam, who played in the year
in the NFL for many years. Similarly, look at someone
like Lamar Jackson, who right now obviously is in really
the infancy of a of what should be a great
career in the NFL with the Ravens thus far, and
(06:16):
has been handling the negotiation process by himself, but it
remains very rare. Most athletes feel much more comfortable having
an agent and giving away of small percentage of the
athletes revenues in exchange for the experience that the that
the agent has, the connections to scouts and general managers, UM,
(06:37):
and the capacity to really take an unbiased approach and
not necessarily hear all the bad things that the teams
say in these negotiations about the players. I think where
we may eventually see more players decide to go at
it on their own is on these rookie deals. Because
they're largely slotted, there's not much negotiation to occur. But
I've thought that for quite some time, and yet we
(06:58):
still see a year after year, the vast made already
of players decide to sign with agents. What would you
say are some of the biggest challenges you face in
this field? UM? I think honestly, it's it's more of
a personal answer than anything. Being um, somebody who has
(07:18):
a nine month old son and trying to make sure
that I spend as much time as possible with him,
and being a family man in general, even before my
son was born, and really enjoying that quality time with
my wife, with my parents, etcetera. It's challenging whether you're
an agent or in any role in the sport. In
(07:39):
the world of sports business, because there is no nine
to five. You can't ever really turn off. And while
I'm a little bit different than many sports agents because
I will put I keep my phone on silent and
I will not answer my phone when I go to sleep,
I'm not going to allow that to interrupt me. Um.
You know, I'm working many weekends, I'm working many nights
and very early morning and so um it is a
(08:01):
challenge to constantly make sure that I carve out time
for my family because that's of penultimate importance. When I
look at this list of the players you've worked with,
there's some big, controversial UH players on here, and it
has to take a special person to work with and
(08:22):
to jael with those type of personalities. What what differentiates
you from all the other lawyers out there. Well, I've
been practicing for over twelve years and I started my
own firm in June two fourteen, so roughly eight and
a half years ago. And one of the biggest gaps
(08:43):
that I saw in the legal profession is that one
lawyers were accustomed to old ways and not willing to
adjust to new technologies and how other businesses were quickly evolving,
the legal practice seemed not to be so I was
very involved with social media and Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram
(09:06):
for many years. I was probably one of the first
adopters as a lawyer of many of these platforms. But
I think more importantly, when I surveyed the landscape, I
noted that a common criticism of my profession is a
lack of effective communication. That oftentimes it would take so
many days for a lawyer to respond, if the lawyer
(09:26):
even responds at all. So I made it a point
and purpose in my practice to be extremely active in communication,
making sure that I respond to everyone day of if
I can um or even within fifteen minutes if I
can um. And I think it's really important. Particularly there's
an example today. I won't mention the athlete by name,
(09:47):
but he texted, are you available, need to talk? It's urgent,
And within five minutes I was able to put things
aside and talk to that athlete. And I think, yeah,
they demand it, and not many lawyers, if any others,
are willing to provide that type of service, and I am.
And I think, obviously, at the end of the day,
what's most important as results and being an effective lawyer.
(10:08):
But communication cannot get lost in the shuffle. I I
get the love of law and then the love of sports,
But why why the urge to work with some of
As a journalist, I've worked with some of these athletes,
and I know the size of the ego. Why why
the desire to work with some of these athletes as
(10:30):
opposed to go into a different type of law. Well,
I think everybody deserves quality representation. And yes, there are
athletes out there with magnanimous egos, and I've represented some
of them, and I'm not going to mention them my name.
I think some people can can take their fair guesses.
(10:51):
And if I have any gray hair, it's probably due
to a select few athletes that I've represented over the
past twelve years. But I enjoy a lot of the
actual substance and the subject matters that I'm looking into,
whether it be the deal flow that i'm reviewing UM,
and in particular the type of litigation and arbitration that
(11:14):
we're handling that is very sports specific and outside your
traditional case law that you may be able to look
up online. UM. I like a lot of the characters
that I do deal with. I love the personalities of
these athletes. By by and large, again, there are there
are those rare few that have been um not not
the most enjoyable experiences, but you also learn from them,
(11:37):
and I oftentimes even find that I'm not necessarily always
providing legal counsel, but sometimes even sort of serving in
the role of psychologists, even though I have no formal education.
But I want to be there to help them in
any way that I can. I mean, we hear so
many horror stories about athletes getting poor representation, whether it
(11:57):
be a lawyer and agent, a financial plan or accountants, cetera.
And being part of the athletes business team, I like
to take as much of a hands on approach as
I can, as much as the athlete will let me,
to best ensure that they're not one of these individuals
who are written about for the wrong reasons, because they
squander their finances, because they enter into the wrong deals.
(12:17):
I can't tell you how many deals I've looked at,
the vast majority of them actually where we look into
the terms and I say, don't walk away from this deal,
run from it, and without competent counsel. And I think
a lot of athletes enter into the wrong deals. What
what's an example of of terms you looked at where
(12:37):
you said run. Yeah. I think the most common one
is probably where the athlete has been asked, usually by
a friend, a colleague, or even a service provider, to
loan an amount of money um. And sometimes they come
to me without an actual promissory note in place. Other
(12:57):
times it looks like a second grade drafted it um.
And then certain times the contract itself is fine, it's robust,
it's specific, it's not ambiguous, but the deal itself doesn't
make sense, or the terms, the the interest rate, maybe
what's called you surius. It's outside the realm of what
(13:18):
is even legal within a specific jurisdiction. And you know, again,
a lot of athletes are probably enter into entering into
these types of arrangements UM. But usually I think it's
a better idea for an athlete to put his or
her money into a conservative investment, whether it be let's say,
(13:38):
a municipal bond or even a high yield stock, as
opposed to lending money to your buddy who may not
have the capital to repay you. It just doesn't make sense.
So I entered into UH. I invested in a company
called Gloss Lab, and we have a lot of big
name athletes that have jumped on board with us, from
(14:01):
Jared Goff to there's several of them. It seems like
that's the sexy thing for athletes to want to invest
in these companies, invest in these alcohol brands. Do you
would you advise against that or do you think it's
it's I mean, I guess it's different based on each
(14:23):
company um and the experience of the company and the
amount they want to invest. But is that a smart
thing for your average athlete to invest in a company
like that? Well, first of all, I'll preface my statement
by saying I try my best to not get involved
(14:44):
in actual financial diligence and recommending an athlete toward a
specific investment. That's why an athlete really should have, as
I mentioned, in a business team where there is also
a reputable financial advisor who serves in that compath city
to look at that deal flow before it even gets
to me. But no, generally, I think it's it's actually
(15:05):
wise for an athlete to diversify. And you say the
average athlete, and that's really hard to necessarily peg, but
somebody who has been in a league for a long
time and has a significant amount of guaranteed income would
actually be wise to not only look at those conservative
investments and also probably put some money into the market
and even keep some money in cash, but look at
(15:28):
some private equity opportunities or investing at the seed stage,
or more importantly, maybe at the Series A, B or
C round of some of these companies that have shown
an ability to raise capital, have shown revenues, have proven
their concept. I mean, I've invested in in brands as well.
One that I've invested alongside other athletes is not an
(15:49):
alcoholic company, but a nonalcoholic brand called Athletic Brewing, and um,
you know, they just raised a Series D round with
Dr Pepper Cure as an investor. So you know, that's
a good example of a success story. But if you're
going to invest in, you know, non public companies that
are still raising capital, that are still trying to prove
(16:11):
their concept, you better be okay with the potential of
losing your money in that investment. Obviously that's never the goal,
that's never the intention, but you have to have that
expectation that it could occur. Yeah, that's what my financial
advisor always tells me, is if you're okay with losing
it all, then let's invest it you're not and it's
(16:33):
too much money to lose, then let's not do it.
Uh I. I want to switch gears a little bit.
The New York Times did a piece recently about how
sex sells with the n I L. It had a
gymnast from L. S U. The Cabinder Twins, who I
know you've worked with and you are currently working with.
(16:53):
Who are women's basketball players for University of Miami. Do
your clients feel pressure to be sexier to make more money? No?
And I'll be on the record with you. I think
it was a pitiful piece. Um. We were contacted by
the author at The New York Times to interview the
Cavendar Twins. We rejected, and I'm very happy that we did.
(17:19):
Even the premise of the piece was not fully explained,
and I think Olivia done. The gymnast at L. S
U was actually very surprised with the article as it
came out because she had a different impression as to
what the writer was looking to to publish. And I
think anyone understands that in our world, in our society,
(17:43):
to an extent, sex and good looks sells. But to
try to put these individuals who are extremely talented, work
their tails off, put together the content on a daily basis,
are engaging with their fans. To say that it's only
(18:03):
because they look good is the weakest form of journalism,
and you know so, I think that it's very sad
to see that type of peace get published. I think
the reaction largely was exactly what I mentioned, which is
that you know, this was a writer and perhaps a
(18:24):
publication on a mission and maybe created the conclusion before
even writing the story. Um, Olivia Donn has done a
tremendous job. The cabinor Twins have done. I can't tell
you how great they are to work with, how wonderful
they are with brands. I mean, you see who I've
worked with over the last twelve years. They are the
(18:48):
easiest for brands to work with. They not only accomplish
the deliverables, they go above and beyond. There's a reason
why brands keep flocking to them over and over again.
It's not just because they look good. It's ten to
twenty different elements and that just maybe one of them.
(19:09):
I I could relate to this so much being a female,
a blonde female in the sports world, and as a journalist,
I knew going into this industry that I was going
to have to have a game plan and refute stereotypes,
and I did that by relying heavily on radio and
(19:30):
writing for different publications to build credibility. What do you
think that their secret to success has been? You you
mentioned a little of it right here with the how
easy they are to work with, and obviously they're tremendous
following that they've built up. And when you show up
(19:53):
on set on time and you're easy to get along with,
obviously that reputation gets around and more and more people
want to work with you in the industry. Uh, what
do you think that the capinor twins secret to success
has been behind the scenes and and not just what
we see on their TikTok and Instagram. I'll say two
(20:18):
things other than obviously having a tremendous lawyer. Number one, Um,
the easy answer to why they've been successful is going
into July when and I'll basically turned on for all
these athletes, they had already been spending the time to
(20:38):
procure a very large following on Instagram and on TikTok
in particular. And again it's not only because they look good,
but what people don't really follow closely, is how engaging
they are with their followers. If you comment on one
of their posts, they comment back almost right away. They're
(21:01):
liking it right almost right away. And so oftentimes when
an athlete is publishing content and feels inauthentic, and for
them it's real. There's a real connection that they're building
with their followers, which adds them so much value to
the brands that engage with them. The other thing that
(21:23):
I think is really important is very early on, they
came to me and asked who would be a good
fit to serve as an agent, because they with everything
that they're doing academics, athletics now also handling their social media,
which is really another full time job, they didn't have
the time to go out there and pound the pavement
and speak to brands, and so I connected them with
(21:46):
Average Sports and they have worked so incredibly hard to
match the camera Twins not only with many brands, but
brands that fit their interests, that had products and services
that the counter Twins either were already using or tried
(22:07):
and really enjoyed. And again, that authenticity bleeds through the
content that's being published, and then we'll cause even more
brands to latch on. So I think those two things
combined have led to a lot of success for them.
I'm jealous of their time management skills because in college,
there's no way I would have We didn't even have
social media. When I was in college. We had I
(22:28):
think Facebook was on year one and we had my Space,
which I think you and I heard about the same age.
I don't know how. I don't know how. I don't
know how they can't imagine when I was in college
balancing school and athletics and social media, and now add
(22:54):
the value they're gaining from it is a full time job,
like you said, So, I'm very jealous of their time
management skills. But the n i L seems a bit
The n i L seems a bit like the wild
West of sports business right now. And everyone's talking about
what's happening right now, But what do you see in
the future. What are what are the trends that people
(23:15):
might not be aware of. Well, I think one thing
that is slowly developing is now we have all the
college athletes who are able to benefit off of their names,
images and likenesses. Obviously, forever we've had professional athletes being
(23:36):
able to earn money from endorsement deals, autographs, et cetera.
But what we're starting to see trickle down too is
the high school athlete. And going back to July one,
when this was all of a sudden turned on for
all college athletes, you had one state that allowed high
school athletes to benefit from their n i L, that
(23:57):
being the state of California. Now we're approaching roughly a
year and a half after and I all turned on
for college athletes, and we're at about twenty states that
allow high school athletes these same rights. Interestingly, the Southeastern states,
where some of the best talent in the country comes
(24:19):
from for high school, they haven't yet turned that on,
and there's been a lot of battles within those states,
within the high school athletic associations as to what should
be done. Do we resist change or do we follow
the rest of the country. And if we resist change,
will we see some of our best athletes, those five
(24:40):
star athletes actually move out of the state while they're
still in high school so that they can benefit from
these opportunities. I think that's that's definitely an area to
follow very closely going forward. One do the South Eastern
states decide that they're willing to make the necessary change
in my estimation, or do they stay stubborn and do
(25:03):
we start to see some of that flow of the
best athletes in those states moved to others where it's allowed.
Why do you think I went to and I went
to Auburn and SEC school as well. I heard that
you went to Florida. Uh, why do you think the
SEC is so hesitant to change? And to be clear,
(25:23):
it's not the SEC, because it's not the actual colleges
or the conferences who are making these determinations. In fact,
it's the high school athletic associations. And I think there's,
as I mentioned, the fear somewhat of the unknown and
a resistance to change. You have such strong, storied programs.
(25:43):
I mean, look in my backyard in South Florida you
have St. Thomas, you have American Heritage, two of the
strongest programs in the country for football. For baseball, you
have IMG Academy in Bradenton, UM also nationally own. And
I think there's a fear that you'll take high school
(26:04):
sports and turn them pro as well and lose control
of the athlete. That's probably the biggest fear I mean,
we saw that fear among athletic directors at the collegiate
level before they saw the writing on the wall, which
was that this was going to change, whether they were
in support of it or not. And now that's what
we're starting to see at the high school level. I
(26:25):
think in a lot of states where we have seen change,
you don't have those storied programs, and they probably see
believe that they can maybe even have get an an
unfair or fair advantage over schools and other states in
the meantime while they sit idle. H. Well, the big
topic right now has been the World Cup and guitar.
(26:47):
You are obviously a brilliant lawyer, and there's I mean,
it seems like every outlet is covering this right now. Um,
I just watched Jon Stewart. For those of us who
have read subheadlines but haven't completely delved into the story,
maybe because we're Americans who don't always follow soccer, how
(27:08):
would you summarize what's happening with the World Cup and
guitar thus far? Well, I would summarize it with a
Latin phrase which is caveat emptor, and in essence, what
it means is you've made your bed now you have
to sleep in it. You know, when when you're a
(27:29):
purchaser of something, you bear the risk of doing the
diligence ahead of time. And I don't know what people
necessarily thought going into a World Cup in Qatar, where
obviously there have been a lot of geopolitical and societal
issues over in the past, at least issues or positions
(27:53):
on issues that typically do not align with what we
believe in in Western thought in the Western world, And
so I think you're starting to see that play out,
and perhaps some media members decided to cover it while
others turn their heads. Interestingly, the biggest issue thus far,
(28:17):
at least in terms of what the media is covering,
is probably this ban on alcohol consumption at the stadiums
and how that affects and Heuser Bush and Budweiser in particular,
which paid upwards I think of seventy five million dollars
for sponsorship rights with FIFA. Now understand it's different. Budweiser
(28:37):
didn't pay the Nation of Qatar. Budweiser paid FIFA, and
FIFA likely provided Budweiser with this guarantee of access and
exclusivity UM, which is quite interesting because Budweiser only days
before kickop, before the start of the World Cup, had
(28:58):
the rug pulled from beneath it, and is dealing with
the consequences of that now. So um, but again caveat
emptor you you kind of understood the situation you were
getting yourself in. Perhaps you could have taken a break
from this World Cup, but you decided to move forward anyway,
and likely because you've had a very long standing, strong
relationship with FIFA and to take a break wouldn't have
(29:21):
made sense even with this band. So if you're Budweiser
and they hire you today, do you I've heard some rumblings,
I've seen some headlines, But have they sued? Have they
not sued? Do you turn around? You sue FIFA? Not
necessarily you have to. You don't always sue a breaching party. Again,
(29:44):
assuming that there is a breach of the contract in
itself and none of us have seen the contractual language,
and maybe FIFA even shielded itself in case something like
this occurred. But assuming that they did not and there
is a breach, you don't always sue a breaching party,
especially one that you've had a longstanding relationship within, one
that you want to continue to have a relationship within
(30:06):
the future. I would say it's similar to an athlete
having an endorsement deal, let's say with a Nike and
the athlete violating immorals clause, which let's say the athlete
was found to have been driving drunk but didn't kill anyone,
(30:28):
but but got a d u I. There's a possibility
that the brand decides under the clause in the contract
to terminate. But what if it's Tiger Woods? Do you
terminate over that or not? And it comes down oftentimes
to an economic decision as opposed to a legal decision,
even though it may be a slam dunk case. Perhaps
(30:51):
you don't enforce the provision in the contract, and that
maybe what's happening behind the scenes right now, Budweiser saying,
can we turn this calamity into a success story and
we've already seen it start to market in creative ways
surrounding this and save our relationship with FIFA as opposed
to destroying it by selling What do you think the
(31:14):
implications are going forward for FIFA if any is there
anyone that's going to hold them accountable? Well, that's a
that's a tough question because I'm not certain who outside
of Budweiser would be in a position to hold FIFA
accountable for any breaches of contract. And as I mentioned,
(31:35):
I'm not even completely certain that Budweiser has a slam
done case against FIFA because I'd hate to speculate without
seeing the actual language in the contract. So to your question,
as we sit here today, I'm unaware as to whether
anyone has any rights or will enforce them against FIFA. Okay,
thank you so much, Darren. This has just been I've
(31:57):
been wanting to ask you all these questions for a
week now, and there's so many things in the news
and you don't know what to believe and not because
every media outlet is getting involved. And I am just
really grateful that you joined us today on Sports Illustrated
and my Heart Radio as the Bag because this was
such a fun interview and I wish R. Sean was
(32:19):
here to hear it. But we'll have to have you
back again. I'm sure there will be many many more
articles on n I L and a lot of fun
hot button topics that that emerged that you will I
will love to pick your brain on. So thank you
so much for joining us. I'd be happy to come back.
Thank you. Thank you guys for listening to Sports Illustrated
(32:43):
and I Heart Radio is the bag. For more podcasts
from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast from. Thank
you for listening, and thank you to our special guest,
Darren Heitner. Follow us on Instagram at Rashaw Jennings and
at Lindsay McCormick sport Arts and we'll be back next
week with Rashad. We wish you a very happy Thanksgiving,
(33:07):
Spend lots of time with your loved ones, and we'll
see you guys next week
Never lover. Good good, Hey, guys, welcome to another episode
of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio's The Bag with
(00:21):
Me Lindsy McCormick and my co host Rashaw Jennings, who
is not with us this week due to holiday travel,
and he held down the fort last week for me
when I was suffering with the flu on my honeymoon,
which those two words don't really combine well, but you know,
it is life, and we're back and I really appreciate
(00:42):
Rashad and David Meltzer taking care of business and talking
about business in the process. But today we have an
extra special guest that I am really excited for you
guys to get to hear his take on so many
different and things, from what's going on with the World
(01:03):
Cup and Quitar to in I L deals, which has
been a very hot topic of discussion, and there's no
one who knows more about this than our guest today,
Darren Heitner, who is an athlete lawyer to some of
the biggest names in the industry, from Drew Rosenhouse, Draymond Green, Um,
(01:25):
ju Juice Smith, Antonio Brown, Johnny manzel Terrell Owens. I
could go on and on with the guys that you
have worked for, Darren and I. I wish we had
longer because I'd love to pick your brain about so many,
so many things. But before we dive into talking about
your thoughts on FIFA and Qatar and your perspective as
(01:48):
a lawyer, I wanted to get your take on. I
want to hear your story. I want to hear how
you got here. Why why sports? Why sports law? Well,
I'll provide the abridged version. UM. I've always been very
interested in sports and laws separately, so to be able
(02:09):
to combine my two passions was easily a dream job
for me. And initially when I decided to go straight
from undergrad to law school and I went to University
of Florida for both, I had this impression that I
was going to create a sports agency, which I did,
build that up throughout my three years of law school,
and then do that for the rest of my life.
(02:31):
I quickly learned after those three years, and I'd say
about a year afterwards, that it actually was not was
not for me. Uh, the sleepless nights, the exorbitant amount
of money to be spent in recruiting and maintaining these individuals, UM,
how fickle they can oftentimes be, and and shifting from
agent to agent, and ultimately decided to pivot and use
(02:52):
my law degree to practice law, and instead of burning
bridges with a lot of the people that I was
competing against at the time, I maintained relationships and turned
them into clients of mind. And it's actually been probably
the best source of athlete clientele for me is having
those agents and their agencies be my clients. And it's
(03:13):
been a difficult balance to an extent, because working with
so many different agents who are competing against each other,
sometimes they may lack trust or be concerned, but I've
tried to be very cautious in terms of maintaining confidentiality
and respect and trust and it's worked out for roughly
twelve years. Over twelve years now. So what are A
(03:38):
lot of people have an idea of what a sports
agent does, but what does a sports lawyer do? Yeah,
so it's a great question. A sports agent is really
responsible for procuring finding deals on the marketing side and
then also negotiating professional team con tracts. And for the
(04:01):
work that an agent does, the agent receives a commission
when it's a team contract. Those commissions are oftentimes capped
by the players associations that serve as the unions representing
those players. On the marketing side, there is no cap
uh and it's so from an agent's perspective, their source
of revenue is really in the form of those percentage commissions.
(04:24):
Where I come in is handled pretty much everything else.
If there's a transaction that needs to be reviewed and
negotiated and the legal language revised or drafted, I'm handling
those contracts. If there's intellectual property in the form of trademarks,
If if an athletes creating a brand and needs protection
surrounding that, or is in the realm of creating content
(04:46):
and needs protection on a copyright side, we're helping there.
We're also enforcing when people are using athletes names, images
and likenesses without permission, so that would be a right
of publicity issue. And then a lot of litigation an arbitration.
There's a lot of disputes that don't really reach the
public because they primarily occur in confidential arbitration, and we
(05:09):
handle a ton of that um. In fact, I have
a couple of arbitration final hearings coming up before the
close of November between agents and players or agencies against
each other. So that's sort of the hardcore sports law
that a lot of people don't don't appreciate. Do you
think the industry is going to get to a place
where people are just hiring Rashod, for example, did away
(05:33):
with his agent negotiated his own contract. Do you think
the industry is going to get to a place where
people just hire sports lawyers and don't even need an agent.
It's an excellent question, and it's come up from time
to time, at least for as long as I've been
covering the industry. I remember, going back many years ago,
(05:54):
matt Elam coming out of the University of Florida, decided
to go out on his own, but had the assistance
of his brother abe Elam, who played in the year
in the NFL for many years. Similarly, look at someone
like Lamar Jackson, who right now obviously is in really
the infancy of a of what should be a great
career in the NFL with the Ravens thus far, and
(06:16):
has been handling the negotiation process by himself, but it
remains very rare. Most athletes feel much more comfortable having
an agent and giving away of small percentage of the
athletes revenues in exchange for the experience that the that
the agent has, the connections to scouts and general managers, UM,
(06:37):
and the capacity to really take an unbiased approach and
not necessarily hear all the bad things that the teams
say in these negotiations about the players. I think where
we may eventually see more players decide to go at
it on their own is on these rookie deals. Because
they're largely slotted, there's not much negotiation to occur. But
I've thought that for quite some time, and yet we
(06:58):
still see a year after year, the vast made already
of players decide to sign with agents. What would you
say are some of the biggest challenges you face in
this field? UM? I think honestly, it's it's more of
a personal answer than anything. Being um, somebody who has
(07:18):
a nine month old son and trying to make sure
that I spend as much time as possible with him,
and being a family man in general, even before my
son was born, and really enjoying that quality time with
my wife, with my parents, etcetera. It's challenging whether you're
an agent or in any role in the sport. In
(07:39):
the world of sports business, because there is no nine
to five. You can't ever really turn off. And while
I'm a little bit different than many sports agents because
I will put I keep my phone on silent and
I will not answer my phone when I go to sleep,
I'm not going to allow that to interrupt me. Um.
You know, I'm working many weekends, I'm working many nights
and very early morning and so um it is a
(08:01):
challenge to constantly make sure that I carve out time
for my family because that's of penultimate importance. When I
look at this list of the players you've worked with,
there's some big, controversial UH players on here, and it
has to take a special person to work with and
(08:22):
to jael with those type of personalities. What what differentiates
you from all the other lawyers out there. Well, I've
been practicing for over twelve years and I started my
own firm in June two fourteen, so roughly eight and
a half years ago. And one of the biggest gaps
(08:43):
that I saw in the legal profession is that one
lawyers were accustomed to old ways and not willing to
adjust to new technologies and how other businesses were quickly evolving,
the legal practice seemed not to be so I was
very involved with social media and Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram
(09:06):
for many years. I was probably one of the first
adopters as a lawyer of many of these platforms. But
I think more importantly, when I surveyed the landscape, I
noted that a common criticism of my profession is a
lack of effective communication. That oftentimes it would take so
many days for a lawyer to respond, if the lawyer
(09:26):
even responds at all. So I made it a point
and purpose in my practice to be extremely active in communication,
making sure that I respond to everyone day of if
I can um or even within fifteen minutes if I
can um. And I think it's really important. Particularly there's
an example today. I won't mention the athlete by name,
(09:47):
but he texted, are you available, need to talk? It's urgent,
And within five minutes I was able to put things
aside and talk to that athlete. And I think, yeah,
they demand it, and not many lawyers, if any others,
are willing to provide that type of service, and I am.
And I think, obviously, at the end of the day,
what's most important as results and being an effective lawyer.
(10:08):
But communication cannot get lost in the shuffle. I I
get the love of law and then the love of sports,
But why why the urge to work with some of
As a journalist, I've worked with some of these athletes,
and I know the size of the ego. Why why
the desire to work with some of these athletes as
(10:30):
opposed to go into a different type of law. Well,
I think everybody deserves quality representation. And yes, there are
athletes out there with magnanimous egos, and I've represented some
of them, and I'm not going to mention them my name.
I think some people can can take their fair guesses.
(10:51):
And if I have any gray hair, it's probably due
to a select few athletes that I've represented over the
past twelve years. But I enjoy a lot of the
actual substance and the subject matters that I'm looking into,
whether it be the deal flow that i'm reviewing UM,
and in particular the type of litigation and arbitration that
(11:14):
we're handling that is very sports specific and outside your
traditional case law that you may be able to look
up online. UM. I like a lot of the characters
that I do deal with. I love the personalities of
these athletes. By by and large, again, there are there
are those rare few that have been um not not
the most enjoyable experiences, but you also learn from them,
(11:37):
and I oftentimes even find that I'm not necessarily always
providing legal counsel, but sometimes even sort of serving in
the role of psychologists, even though I have no formal education.
But I want to be there to help them in
any way that I can. I mean, we hear so
many horror stories about athletes getting poor representation, whether it
(11:57):
be a lawyer and agent, a financial plan or accountants, cetera.
And being part of the athletes business team, I like
to take as much of a hands on approach as
I can, as much as the athlete will let me,
to best ensure that they're not one of these individuals
who are written about for the wrong reasons, because they
squander their finances, because they enter into the wrong deals.
(12:17):
I can't tell you how many deals I've looked at,
the vast majority of them actually where we look into
the terms and I say, don't walk away from this deal,
run from it, and without competent counsel. And I think
a lot of athletes enter into the wrong deals. What
what's an example of of terms you looked at where
(12:37):
you said run. Yeah. I think the most common one
is probably where the athlete has been asked, usually by
a friend, a colleague, or even a service provider, to
loan an amount of money um. And sometimes they come
to me without an actual promissory note in place. Other
(12:57):
times it looks like a second grade drafted it um.
And then certain times the contract itself is fine, it's robust,
it's specific, it's not ambiguous, but the deal itself doesn't
make sense, or the terms, the the interest rate, maybe
what's called you surius. It's outside the realm of what
(13:18):
is even legal within a specific jurisdiction. And you know, again,
a lot of athletes are probably enter into entering into
these types of arrangements UM. But usually I think it's
a better idea for an athlete to put his or
her money into a conservative investment, whether it be let's say,
(13:38):
a municipal bond or even a high yield stock, as
opposed to lending money to your buddy who may not
have the capital to repay you. It just doesn't make sense.
So I entered into UH. I invested in a company
called Gloss Lab, and we have a lot of big
name athletes that have jumped on board with us, from
(14:01):
Jared Goff to there's several of them. It seems like
that's the sexy thing for athletes to want to invest
in these companies, invest in these alcohol brands. Do you
would you advise against that or do you think it's
it's I mean, I guess it's different based on each
(14:23):
company um and the experience of the company and the
amount they want to invest. But is that a smart
thing for your average athlete to invest in a company
like that? Well, first of all, I'll preface my statement
by saying I try my best to not get involved
(14:44):
in actual financial diligence and recommending an athlete toward a
specific investment. That's why an athlete really should have, as
I mentioned, in a business team where there is also
a reputable financial advisor who serves in that compath city
to look at that deal flow before it even gets
to me. But no, generally, I think it's it's actually
(15:05):
wise for an athlete to diversify. And you say the
average athlete, and that's really hard to necessarily peg, but
somebody who has been in a league for a long
time and has a significant amount of guaranteed income would
actually be wise to not only look at those conservative
investments and also probably put some money into the market
and even keep some money in cash, but look at
(15:28):
some private equity opportunities or investing at the seed stage,
or more importantly, maybe at the Series A, B or
C round of some of these companies that have shown
an ability to raise capital, have shown revenues, have proven
their concept. I mean, I've invested in in brands as well.
One that I've invested alongside other athletes is not an
(15:49):
alcoholic company, but a nonalcoholic brand called Athletic Brewing, and um,
you know, they just raised a Series D round with
Dr Pepper Cure as an investor. So you know, that's
a good example of a success story. But if you're
going to invest in, you know, non public companies that
are still raising capital, that are still trying to prove
(16:11):
their concept, you better be okay with the potential of
losing your money in that investment. Obviously that's never the goal,
that's never the intention, but you have to have that
expectation that it could occur. Yeah, that's what my financial
advisor always tells me, is if you're okay with losing
it all, then let's invest it you're not and it's
(16:33):
too much money to lose, then let's not do it.
Uh I. I want to switch gears a little bit.
The New York Times did a piece recently about how
sex sells with the n I L. It had a
gymnast from L. S U. The Cabinder Twins, who I
know you've worked with and you are currently working with.
(16:53):
Who are women's basketball players for University of Miami. Do
your clients feel pressure to be sexier to make more money? No?
And I'll be on the record with you. I think
it was a pitiful piece. Um. We were contacted by
the author at The New York Times to interview the
Cavendar Twins. We rejected, and I'm very happy that we did.
(17:19):
Even the premise of the piece was not fully explained,
and I think Olivia done. The gymnast at L. S
U was actually very surprised with the article as it
came out because she had a different impression as to
what the writer was looking to to publish. And I
think anyone understands that in our world, in our society,
(17:43):
to an extent, sex and good looks sells. But to
try to put these individuals who are extremely talented, work
their tails off, put together the content on a daily basis,
are engaging with their fans. To say that it's only
(18:03):
because they look good is the weakest form of journalism,
and you know so, I think that it's very sad
to see that type of peace get published. I think
the reaction largely was exactly what I mentioned, which is
that you know, this was a writer and perhaps a
(18:24):
publication on a mission and maybe created the conclusion before
even writing the story. Um, Olivia Donn has done a
tremendous job. The cabinor Twins have done. I can't tell
you how great they are to work with, how wonderful
they are with brands. I mean, you see who I've
worked with over the last twelve years. They are the
(18:48):
easiest for brands to work with. They not only accomplish
the deliverables, they go above and beyond. There's a reason
why brands keep flocking to them over and over again.
It's not just because they look good. It's ten to
twenty different elements and that just maybe one of them.
(19:09):
I I could relate to this so much being a female,
a blonde female in the sports world, and as a journalist,
I knew going into this industry that I was going
to have to have a game plan and refute stereotypes,
and I did that by relying heavily on radio and
(19:30):
writing for different publications to build credibility. What do you
think that their secret to success has been? You you
mentioned a little of it right here with the how
easy they are to work with, and obviously they're tremendous
following that they've built up. And when you show up
(19:53):
on set on time and you're easy to get along with,
obviously that reputation gets around and more and more people
want to work with you in the industry. Uh, what
do you think that the capinor twins secret to success
has been behind the scenes and and not just what
we see on their TikTok and Instagram. I'll say two
(20:18):
things other than obviously having a tremendous lawyer. Number one, Um,
the easy answer to why they've been successful is going
into July when and I'll basically turned on for all
these athletes, they had already been spending the time to
(20:38):
procure a very large following on Instagram and on TikTok
in particular. And again it's not only because they look good,
but what people don't really follow closely, is how engaging
they are with their followers. If you comment on one
of their posts, they comment back almost right away. They're
(21:01):
liking it right almost right away. And so oftentimes when
an athlete is publishing content and feels inauthentic, and for
them it's real. There's a real connection that they're building
with their followers, which adds them so much value to
the brands that engage with them. The other thing that
(21:23):
I think is really important is very early on, they
came to me and asked who would be a good
fit to serve as an agent, because they with everything
that they're doing academics, athletics now also handling their social media,
which is really another full time job, they didn't have
the time to go out there and pound the pavement
and speak to brands, and so I connected them with
(21:46):
Average Sports and they have worked so incredibly hard to
match the camera Twins not only with many brands, but
brands that fit their interests, that had products and services
that the counter Twins either were already using or tried
(22:07):
and really enjoyed. And again, that authenticity bleeds through the
content that's being published, and then we'll cause even more
brands to latch on. So I think those two things
combined have led to a lot of success for them.
I'm jealous of their time management skills because in college,
there's no way I would have We didn't even have
social media. When I was in college. We had I
(22:28):
think Facebook was on year one and we had my Space,
which I think you and I heard about the same age.
I don't know how. I don't know how. I don't
know how they can't imagine when I was in college
balancing school and athletics and social media, and now add
(22:54):
the value they're gaining from it is a full time job,
like you said, So, I'm very jealous of their time
management skills. But the n i L seems a bit
The n i L seems a bit like the wild
West of sports business right now. And everyone's talking about
what's happening right now, But what do you see in
the future. What are what are the trends that people
(23:15):
might not be aware of. Well, I think one thing
that is slowly developing is now we have all the
college athletes who are able to benefit off of their names,
images and likenesses. Obviously, forever we've had professional athletes being
(23:36):
able to earn money from endorsement deals, autographs, et cetera.
But what we're starting to see trickle down too is
the high school athlete. And going back to July one,
when this was all of a sudden turned on for
all college athletes, you had one state that allowed high
school athletes to benefit from their n i L, that
(23:57):
being the state of California. Now we're approaching roughly a
year and a half after and I all turned on
for college athletes, and we're at about twenty states that
allow high school athletes these same rights. Interestingly, the Southeastern states,
where some of the best talent in the country comes
(24:19):
from for high school, they haven't yet turned that on,
and there's been a lot of battles within those states,
within the high school athletic associations as to what should
be done. Do we resist change or do we follow
the rest of the country. And if we resist change,
will we see some of our best athletes, those five
(24:40):
star athletes actually move out of the state while they're
still in high school so that they can benefit from
these opportunities. I think that's that's definitely an area to
follow very closely going forward. One do the South Eastern
states decide that they're willing to make the necessary change
in my estimation, or do they stay stubborn and do
(25:03):
we start to see some of that flow of the
best athletes in those states moved to others where it's allowed.
Why do you think I went to and I went
to Auburn and SEC school as well. I heard that
you went to Florida. Uh, why do you think the
SEC is so hesitant to change? And to be clear,
(25:23):
it's not the SEC, because it's not the actual colleges
or the conferences who are making these determinations. In fact,
it's the high school athletic associations. And I think there's,
as I mentioned, the fear somewhat of the unknown and
a resistance to change. You have such strong, storied programs.
(25:43):
I mean, look in my backyard in South Florida you
have St. Thomas, you have American Heritage, two of the
strongest programs in the country for football. For baseball, you
have IMG Academy in Bradenton, UM also nationally own. And
I think there's a fear that you'll take high school
(26:04):
sports and turn them pro as well and lose control
of the athlete. That's probably the biggest fear I mean,
we saw that fear among athletic directors at the collegiate
level before they saw the writing on the wall, which
was that this was going to change, whether they were
in support of it or not. And now that's what
we're starting to see at the high school level. I
(26:25):
think in a lot of states where we have seen change,
you don't have those storied programs, and they probably see
believe that they can maybe even have get an an
unfair or fair advantage over schools and other states in
the meantime while they sit idle. H. Well, the big
topic right now has been the World Cup and guitar.
(26:47):
You are obviously a brilliant lawyer, and there's I mean,
it seems like every outlet is covering this right now. Um,
I just watched Jon Stewart. For those of us who
have read subheadlines but haven't completely delved into the story,
maybe because we're Americans who don't always follow soccer, how
(27:08):
would you summarize what's happening with the World Cup and
guitar thus far? Well, I would summarize it with a
Latin phrase which is caveat emptor, and in essence, what
it means is you've made your bed now you have
to sleep in it. You know, when when you're a
(27:29):
purchaser of something, you bear the risk of doing the
diligence ahead of time. And I don't know what people
necessarily thought going into a World Cup in Qatar, where
obviously there have been a lot of geopolitical and societal
issues over in the past, at least issues or positions
(27:53):
on issues that typically do not align with what we
believe in in Western thought in the Western world, And
so I think you're starting to see that play out,
and perhaps some media members decided to cover it while
others turn their heads. Interestingly, the biggest issue thus far,
(28:17):
at least in terms of what the media is covering,
is probably this ban on alcohol consumption at the stadiums
and how that affects and Heuser Bush and Budweiser in particular,
which paid upwards I think of seventy five million dollars
for sponsorship rights with FIFA. Now understand it's different. Budweiser
(28:37):
didn't pay the Nation of Qatar. Budweiser paid FIFA, and
FIFA likely provided Budweiser with this guarantee of access and
exclusivity UM, which is quite interesting because Budweiser only days
before kickop, before the start of the World Cup, had
(28:58):
the rug pulled from beneath it, and is dealing with
the consequences of that now. So um, but again caveat
emptor you you kind of understood the situation you were
getting yourself in. Perhaps you could have taken a break
from this World Cup, but you decided to move forward anyway,
and likely because you've had a very long standing, strong
relationship with FIFA and to take a break wouldn't have
(29:21):
made sense even with this band. So if you're Budweiser
and they hire you today, do you I've heard some rumblings,
I've seen some headlines, But have they sued? Have they
not sued? Do you turn around? You sue FIFA? Not
necessarily you have to. You don't always sue a breaching party. Again,
(29:44):
assuming that there is a breach of the contract in
itself and none of us have seen the contractual language,
and maybe FIFA even shielded itself in case something like
this occurred. But assuming that they did not and there
is a breach, you don't always sue a breaching party,
especially one that you've had a longstanding relationship within, one
that you want to continue to have a relationship within
(30:06):
the future. I would say it's similar to an athlete
having an endorsement deal, let's say with a Nike and
the athlete violating immorals clause, which let's say the athlete
was found to have been driving drunk but didn't kill anyone,
(30:28):
but but got a d u I. There's a possibility
that the brand decides under the clause in the contract
to terminate. But what if it's Tiger Woods? Do you
terminate over that or not? And it comes down oftentimes
to an economic decision as opposed to a legal decision,
even though it may be a slam dunk case. Perhaps
(30:51):
you don't enforce the provision in the contract, and that
maybe what's happening behind the scenes right now, Budweiser saying,
can we turn this calamity into a success story and
we've already seen it start to market in creative ways
surrounding this and save our relationship with FIFA as opposed
to destroying it by selling What do you think the
(31:14):
implications are going forward for FIFA if any is there
anyone that's going to hold them accountable? Well, that's a
that's a tough question because I'm not certain who outside
of Budweiser would be in a position to hold FIFA
accountable for any breaches of contract. And as I mentioned,
(31:35):
I'm not even completely certain that Budweiser has a slam
done case against FIFA because I'd hate to speculate without
seeing the actual language in the contract. So to your question,
as we sit here today, I'm unaware as to whether
anyone has any rights or will enforce them against FIFA. Okay,
thank you so much, Darren. This has just been I've
(31:57):
been wanting to ask you all these questions for a
week now, and there's so many things in the news
and you don't know what to believe and not because
every media outlet is getting involved. And I am just
really grateful that you joined us today on Sports Illustrated
and my Heart Radio as the Bag because this was
such a fun interview and I wish R. Sean was
(32:19):
here to hear it. But we'll have to have you
back again. I'm sure there will be many many more
articles on n I L and a lot of fun
hot button topics that that emerged that you will I
will love to pick your brain on. So thank you
so much for joining us. I'd be happy to come back.
Thank you. Thank you guys for listening to Sports Illustrated
(32:43):
and I Heart Radio is the bag. For more podcasts
from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast from. Thank
you for listening, and thank you to our special guest,
Darren Heitner. Follow us on Instagram at Rashaw Jennings and
at Lindsay McCormick sport Arts and we'll be back next
week with Rashad. We wish you a very happy Thanksgiving,
(33:07):
Spend lots of time with your loved ones, and we'll
see you guys next week
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