August 10, 2025 • 57 mins
SEGMENT 1: Greg Swan & Bob Kiessling - Fighting the Fentanyl Crisis
After losing their sons to fentanyl poisoning, Greg Swan and Bob Kiessling share how Fentanyl Fathers is bringing hope out of their personal heartbreak.
SEGMENT 2: Dr. Melanie Crites-Bachert - Unshaken: A Doctor's Stand for Truth
Dr. Melanie Crites-Bachert exposes the hidden risks of transitional surgeries and the danger of uninformed medical consent.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Content warning. This segment includes discussions of sensitive topics like
abuse and adult material. You were discussion advised.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, Finnahl is a silent killer, stealing countless lives without warning.
But today's guests are bringing light to the darkness, turning
grief into action and stories into lifelines for those who
need them most. It's a very serious subject. But before
we get to that, joining around the table is Dorothy Newton.
You know this is important to talk about, but there
(00:54):
are some sad stories attached to it. It's so sad.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
But you know what our guests today, they're my heroes
because the courage. How they're using their courage and their
pain for the greater good. Yeah, is just amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Amen, rachel An Brown.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
I think it's beautiful to see how people take their
pain and they turn it into their purpose and something
that was really tragic in their lives. Yes, good can
still come from it. And I know that's really hard
to even imagine. How could anything good happen from something
so bad? But today's guests are an example of how
you can turn it around.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
That's right. You know that scripture that says God will
take what the enemy meant for evil and turn it
for good, so sometimes it's hard to leave that can
even happen. Cindy Murder, I.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
Welcome this, thank you, and it's going to bring an awareness,
I think, to the public because you hear about fitton
On trying to stop it in the news all the time.
But I think this is going to bring some skin
to that story and help people to understand how real
life peoplea well.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Greg Swan and Bob Kissling, welcome to the table. Thank
you for having the courage to be here today and
share your story. I know that it's going to be
a blessing to all of those that you are watching
in a wake up call for some of you, because
no parents should ever have to endure the heartbreak of
losing a child. Well, today, Greg Swan and Robert Kessling
share how finanyl fathers is turning their personal tragedies into
(02:22):
a powerful message of hope. What is fittanyl Well, let's
just take a look. Fittinel is sealing lives and grieving
parents are sounding the alarm. This video shows why every
family needs to know the risk.
Speaker 6 (02:40):
It's a drug fifty times more potent than heroin, and
doctors say just touching it can send you to the
emergency room. We're talking about the synthetic opioid fentanyl, and all.
Speaker 7 (02:52):
Social media app has changed the game when it comes
to narcotics. Ventanels all over the place and just massive
amounts of it, and some of them are going to
fall trapped. About four years ago, DA in Arizona seized
zero fentanyl. This last year we sees enough fentanyl to
kill seventy million people. You're playing Russian roulette out there
when you're taking these pills and you're buying the stuff
off the street.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
This is my son Alexander. He died at fourteen years
old from fentanyl poisoning.
Speaker 8 (03:17):
This is our daughter Jessica. She was twenty nine years
old when she was killed by fentanyl.
Speaker 9 (03:23):
This is my daughter alex.
Speaker 10 (03:26):
She was murdered at twenty years old by a drug
dealer who sold her a counterfeit pill made of fentanyl.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
This is my son Daniel Joseph Parta Johnson, killed at
the age of sixteen by illicit fentanyl.
Speaker 11 (03:42):
This is my son, my son.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
What you have to understand about a lot of these
kids is they thought they were buying a Zanetz, percoset
or some other pill. They had no idea that it
was laced with vitanyl. So Greg tell us, why are
they lacing it with vitanyl? And who is lacing it
(04:33):
with ventanyl? And are they really trying to kill a generation?
Speaker 12 (04:38):
There's a conspiracy theory out there that they are, but
it seems obvious or purposeful.
Speaker 9 (04:44):
I mean, you can make up your own mind.
Speaker 12 (04:45):
But the precursors come in from China, that's a fact,
and they're offloaded into Mexico where they're pressed, and they're
shipped up through mules into the United States through distribution networks,
and they're ubiquitous throughout the United States. To the current
administration's credit, they have shut down the border to a
(05:08):
tremendous degree, ninety five percent of what it was. But still, sadly,
Americans are hired to take this stuff across the border
because they're so easy to move, because they're pills and
they're made in jungles, they're made in non labs where
they're mixed, and they're mixed unevenly only two point one milligrams.
(05:29):
Put that in perspective, there's two thousand milligrams in a
packet of sugar, So two milligrams will kill you. And
what's happened is that it's put in there to extend
the effects of the drug or the life of the drug.
And they're selling famous brands in the farmer world, percocet
xanax oxycoton adderall and it's being definitely in the methamphetamines
(05:51):
and it's definitely an illicit marijuana now, so you.
Speaker 9 (05:54):
Got to be really, really careful.
Speaker 12 (05:55):
But they put it in there, and kids are buying
it on online social.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Media, not realizing that it's laced with fish.
Speaker 12 (06:02):
They have no idea. They think it's real. It comes
even in a fake prescription bottle.
Speaker 9 (06:06):
But you can't go by sight.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Okay, well you know, I know, we have a video
to show you kind of This really puts an in
perspective of how powerful fitanyl is and what a tiny
amount can do to any young person that takes it.
Let's watch this.
Speaker 8 (06:25):
This would be how much cocaine somebody would have to
ingest to kill them. This is the approximate number of
prescription pills one would have to ingest to kill them.
(06:45):
This is the amount of heroin the average person would
have to ingest to kill them. Ventanyl. You got to
bring that camera up here real close to see it.
This much fentanyl would kill you and I if we
(07:07):
split it. They put fentanyl in cocaine, they put fentanyl
in heroin. They put fentanyl, as we already know and
talked about, into counterfeit pills. It's odorless, it's tasteless. You
don't know it's there, and when you find out it's there,
it's too late. You won't even know it. You'll be dead.
(07:28):
Twenty five hundred people would be killed by that amount
of fentanyl. Does that sound like a drug to you?
Does that sound more.
Speaker 9 (07:36):
Like a poison.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Okay, so Greg, we'll start with you. Tell us about Drew,
who loved God, good boy, did.
Speaker 12 (07:46):
All the altar calls every time, just to be sure
you'd always go up.
Speaker 9 (07:51):
And he was a lovely young man, Mary. He was
a good looking kid.
Speaker 12 (07:57):
He was a model, and he was he was very,
very smart. He had like a one sixty i Q,
which is two below Einstein's. And I loved him. He
was my He was my number one guy. He said, Dad,
You've always been my hero. And I just adored him
from the day he was born. He was the happiest
day of my life.
Speaker 9 (08:15):
And he knows that, and he always would it would
tell me that, and he was. He lived a great life.
Speaker 12 (08:21):
He was a great athlete, was state champion as a freshman,
MVP of the tennis team. But when he got into college,
he had an injury from wrestling and he hurt himself.
He was put on a painkiller called percocet, and he
liked it. And unfortunately, there's a certain amount of us,
and I'm included in this group who are predisposed to addiction.
Speaker 9 (08:41):
I'm in recovery and have been for my dull life.
Speaker 12 (08:44):
And he felt, I would say, victim to being addicted
to it, called us and said I got a problem
with these painkillers.
Speaker 9 (08:53):
I can't get off of them.
Speaker 12 (08:54):
I'm buying them illegally, illicitly.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So he was buying them off the internet, was he was?
Speaker 9 (09:01):
He was, Yeah, he was getting them illicitly. He was
getting oxy cotton.
Speaker 12 (09:05):
I have a friend ed Bish who took down the
Sackler family for making that stuff available initially, which started
the opioid epidemic.
Speaker 9 (09:15):
But he he was running up a seven.
Speaker 12 (09:18):
Hundred dollars tab on buying these things, and that's where
he had calls and have us bail them out. And
we sent him into rehabit rosecrans.
Speaker 9 (09:28):
He took it seriously.
Speaker 12 (09:28):
He got clean, He went down to Florida to his
halfway house to get better, studied, liked Florida.
Speaker 9 (09:33):
And was living there on his own, doing well. I
was super proud of him.
Speaker 12 (09:38):
We had a great weekend together at Epcot Center.
Speaker 9 (09:41):
Our last one together and how much Tom.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Passed, but where he really got clean and was doing good.
Speaker 12 (09:47):
He was a year and a half and he rode
all that beautiful blogs and you know, all these great
talks on the phone. It was our Drew. We had
our Drew back. You know, we text each other about
the latest Jim Carrey movie and he'd say, he's not
number one for a reason, man. And we just had
a great time together. And I just adored him. And
I really have to lean into my faith to just
(10:09):
think about the times are going to have with him
an eternity. And yeah, you're lost when you're you're in
a desert when you lose your.
Speaker 9 (10:15):
Kid, it's bad, And but advocating is the way out.
Speaker 12 (10:20):
You're you're put into the grave when you lose your kid,
I believe, and the way out is to advocate and
save other kids in his name, right, So what happened.
So he took an unprescribed pill from a roommate and
another guy named Rico he was looking for an apartment with,
noticed he had pinpoint pupils and was shallow breathing, and
(10:42):
he knew something was wrong with him and said, Drew, what.
Speaker 9 (10:45):
Is going on with you?
Speaker 12 (10:46):
And he had taken it because he had relapsed at
a rave a little earlier in the month, in March,
and he called his mom and said, I got to
get back on track. Told his brother didn't tell me
he was didn't want to reveal that to me, and
he took a methadone what he thought was methodone. The
rule of thumb is if you take an unprescribed pill
(11:07):
eight and ten times, it'll kill you dead like raid
kills bugs.
Speaker 9 (11:10):
It just there's no exceptions.
Speaker 12 (11:12):
If it's not prescribed you from your doctor, it's more
most likely containing fentanyl, like greatly likely. And his roommate said,
can I help you?
Speaker 9 (11:22):
Is there anything I can do?
Speaker 12 (11:23):
He said, no, just let me go home and sleep
this off. He staggered into his house, fell down, chipped
his tooth, got a little blood on his face, hopped
into his bed, laid back down and died right there
because he stopped breathing, because overdoses happened where there's the
backstem of your brain stopped your automatic breathe in, breathe out,
and he stopped breathing and passed away. His roommate knew
(11:45):
something was wrong. His would be roommate, Rico, knew something
was wrong. The next day, busted into his room, found him,
got a hold of my son Jack on Facebook, who
called me and said, are you sitting down? And I
was sleeping at the time, and shock went through me.
He goes, I need you to be sitting down right now,
and I was, and he said Drew's dead. And it
started kind of a nightmare wilderness experience, you know, the
(12:08):
brief parents let out this universal animalistic sound that Ian
Tease tell me are is.
Speaker 9 (12:15):
Everybody makes the same sound.
Speaker 12 (12:17):
It's not even a noise, It's a sound from the wilderness,
from ages of past. And I, you know, eventually, through
many trial and error of things that didn't work, which
was I relapsed at one point back back in the day,
but I also just support groups and counseling and church.
Speaker 9 (12:40):
None of it worked for me.
Speaker 12 (12:41):
Until I started getting even with death and we started
fentyl fathers. We started going telling kids like Paul Revere,
you need to under no circumstances go near an unprescribed pill.
First of all, you could get addicted to opioids. Secondly,
the stuff will kill you dead, you Little Einstein's.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Right, and you don't. A lot of the kids don't
understand that these what they think are prescription pills look
exactly like I mean exactly like prescription pills, and yet
they are laced with vintnall. How many kids have been
killed that we know.
Speaker 12 (13:14):
Of since twenty Since twenty nineteen, there's been.
Speaker 9 (13:17):
Five hundred thousand who have died.
Speaker 12 (13:19):
Has been one hundred and seven one hundred and ten
hundred and fourteen thousand in the last three years. It's
been unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Five hundred thousand, five hundred.
Speaker 12 (13:29):
Thousand died of fentel poisoning since twenty nineteen. That is
a million bereaved parents, one million of us gutted of
everything and looking for a purpose or direction or a reset.
And so we invite them to come to the Fentylfathers
dot Org and we'll put them back in the game
and have them talk to high schools and warn them about.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
It why I think that they would lace these things
with bentanol because they're literally killing their customers.
Speaker 9 (13:55):
We get that question, asked a lot.
Speaker 12 (13:57):
There's almost unlimited demand for the opiumoids and the effect
that the opioids do, which is a synthetic version of
heroin painkiller. And there's like I said, I air quoted
the conspiracy theory because it just might be you got
half a million young Americans dead, mostly by a fentanyl
(14:18):
who wanted us dead?
Speaker 9 (14:19):
Where did it come from? What were the motives behind it?
Speaker 12 (14:22):
No shot was fired, yet we have a slaughter of
Americans youth that if you put the numbers together, Vietnam, COVID,
all cancer of up to age thirty nine, all drunk driving,
all in nine to eleven attack added all up, it's
less All those famous deaths and global plane crashes since
twenty thousand and six added up, is less than.
Speaker 9 (14:43):
One year's worth of fentyl deaths.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Like a different way of having war.
Speaker 9 (14:47):
It'd be hard to argue with you.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, Bob, I want to get to your story because
I cannot imagine losing two children on the same night
to fit in all poison. Tell us about Kyler and.
Speaker 10 (15:01):
Caleb, So Kyler had just finished his school and so
they went off to celebrate throughs. This is COVID time,
strange circumstances. So I said, all right, we're going to
go to a hotel and celebrate with three other kids.
I like, I'll take you there, because they had already
started partying, like you stay here, be safe, don't go
(15:22):
on the road.
Speaker 9 (15:23):
I thought they were safe.
Speaker 10 (15:25):
Next day, twelve o'clock we were to get together for
dinner and to go get a car. One activity with
each of the boys. Didn't answer. Two o'clock, three o'clock,
no answer. My kids being irresponsible again. Five thirt ay,
get the call from the police. Please come to the hotel.
What's the problem, officer? We can't tell you can just
come to the hotel. And I knew then that this
(15:46):
is not good. So I got a ride to the
hotel and on the scene, the detective told me right
away the boys were upstairs.
Speaker 9 (15:52):
They passed. Here are the signs.
Speaker 10 (15:54):
He described the signs to us to me, and he
showed pictures of the pills. They said, we think it's Ventanyl.
We already had two of these happen just the other day.
It's happening all around us.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
What did you think in that moment when you heard
that news.
Speaker 10 (16:10):
There isn't a lot of thinking. I'd say I probably
went through a shock where it's just like, Okay, this
has happened, and there's not a lot of thoughts that
go through my head.
Speaker 9 (16:21):
I could feel the life drained out of me.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Ye, Dorothy, can you imagine? I really can't.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Do you have other kids that you have to go
back and tell your wife kids?
Speaker 10 (16:33):
So part of that is I had to stay on
mission because I was there for two hours at the scene,
a lot of police and around because it was a
crime scene they treated like a crime And yeah, so
I had to tell their mom and their younger three
younger sisters wow, and be concerned for them and be
there for them.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
So now Kyler and Caleb were adopted, Yes, And I
know I saw some journal entries earlier where they had
actually written to you and said, hey, Dad, we want
to get our life on track, you know, and I
(17:14):
love you, And they were planning for their future. And
I know that those letters and diary entries must mean
a lot to you now. And I think that's one
of the things I want to say to people watching,
is that these kids that we're talking about were not
terrible drug addicts, you know, they were kids that made
(17:35):
a bad decision, not understanding that these pills are laced
with fentanyl, and how much fentanyl is coming across the border.
How much fintanyl is in America right now? Are they
trying to seize it and get it out of the country.
I mean, what's going on with that? What do you
know about that?
Speaker 12 (17:55):
There's enough to kill every man, woman and child three
times over right now in the country. They're trying to
steal it off. But it's ubiquitous, it's everywhere. If we
want to talk a principle into letting us into the school,
we'll say, hey, just give us one shot, and we
will pretend we're someone on Snapchat wanting to buy percocets, xenix,
oxygon adderall, and we'll show a heat map around that school,
(18:18):
and we'll show the principle that your school's in a
firing squad of drug dealers. What are you going to
do about it? And your kids are exposed and they're vulnerable.
And then they say, come on and warn them, And
that's what we're trying to do. Two thirds of kids
who die our first time experimenter's users that had no
idea that they were going.
Speaker 9 (18:38):
To die for.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
They thought they were getting.
Speaker 12 (18:40):
They thought they were going to get something to make
relax or pay free or if they want to stay
up and study, which is very common in the early
college years for finals, give.
Speaker 9 (18:49):
Me an addie. You got an addy.
Speaker 12 (18:51):
If it's not from your doctor, it has fentanyl in it.
They that's the message, and yeah, they think they're going
to get a shortcut because they don't need a prescription
from a doctor.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
The acronym for Safe Students Advocating for venterol Education.
Speaker 9 (19:05):
So we a group in Miami.
Speaker 12 (19:08):
Some two gals started it. One got a full ride
to Michigan because she started it. And we've got twenty
five chapters all over the country where students are now
advocating to know where the the lozone is in the school,
to reverse an overdose, to come in and.
Speaker 9 (19:27):
Be aware like the show the emotive movies that we
do to.
Speaker 12 (19:31):
Have one thousand and one great comebacks to peer pressure,
which is a book available on our home site where
they can practice and role play how to make the
person tempting them to have drugs feel like the more
on rather than.
Speaker 9 (19:46):
Them feel less than like are you thinking this through?
Speaker 12 (19:50):
One thousand and one different ways to say that with
style points and so students advocating federal education, we are
happy to launch as a national group is run by kids,
and we're really proud of them.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
So there is something that you can take if you're overdosing.
How they even know if they're overdosing? Like, how is
that time period? Because I thought it was like so quick.
Speaker 12 (20:09):
The community that is the harm reduction community, says never
use alone. I would say, how about just never use,
but they you want to be with somebody who has
access to narcan and within four to seven minutes, if
someone goes down, their pupils are dilated or they're just
not breathing, they're having an overdose.
Speaker 9 (20:28):
If it's a frat.
Speaker 12 (20:30):
Party and someone's just drunk and you give them the
locks in their nose, you do no.
Speaker 9 (20:37):
Harm to them.
Speaker 12 (20:37):
So it wouldn't even hurt a baby, but it will
reverse the effects.
Speaker 9 (20:41):
It'll take those receptors.
Speaker 12 (20:43):
And open it up so they can automatically start breathing
and breathe out. They call it the Lazarus drug, and
so they want to get that out there in ubiquitous.
It should be everywhere fire hydrant or is in a school,
you know, fire extinguisher or an EMT thing. It should
be and I think now will be well, Bob, let's talk.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
A little bit about the grieving process. Because you had
a long grieving process of about three years. You never
dreamed you'd be sitting here or telling your story or
doing what you're doing. But why was that healing for you?
And why was that part of the restoration, if you will,
of your heart?
Speaker 10 (21:22):
So, I mean, people understand the grieving process. You know
the five stages of grief, right, so you go through
when there's you, you can't predict or tell which one's
going to pop. It said, acceptance or anger or being
sadness just devastating, absolutely devastating. Is I feel hollow inside
for the longest time, and going through that process, it
(21:44):
can really just you don't want to do anything in
life anymore. It can just really go you. And I
recognize that, boy, I could just go down into the
depths with this.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
So I even though you had the three girls that
needed you as.
Speaker 10 (21:57):
Well, Yeah, well there are those roles that I could
still play. I still had to play dad, I still
had to go to work, in ten days, I still
had to be the ministry lead for our cr program,
our recovery program. So I kept on doing those because
time alone is like a scary time during that time
because it's dark, but filling it with people that no
(22:18):
one can care, having people around you that you can
know them, know how to respond and care, having that
support neck around you had built that.
Speaker 9 (22:23):
I had that very fortunate.
Speaker 10 (22:25):
I had that and a strong relationship with the Lord
and seeking really input from elders as well as have
gone through the process and has gone through grieving, and
so when you get through that. About three years I
went through that process and then I said, Okay, God,
what's next?
Speaker 9 (22:40):
What's next? And it was really.
Speaker 10 (22:42):
To go out and do something to not let anybody
else go under this.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I would just say, sitting here, you're doing great, by
the way, but it's probably not your personality to get
up and stand and talk about what happened with your
boys or to share. So when the Lord kind of
put that on your heart, was it hard to step
into that role or have you found disgrate fulfillment from
doing that?
Speaker 10 (23:07):
Well, First, I feel it's the father's duty to extend
themselves to the community.
Speaker 9 (23:11):
Yeah, and we.
Speaker 10 (23:13):
Have to as a culture and as me personally, I
have to do something that there's so there's a compulsion.
I think there's an obedience too. When you look at
twenty four to eleven, you know those who hold back,
those who are heading towards slaughter. And it talks about
our conscious being stirred and being moved to conscious to
act on our conscience.
Speaker 9 (23:32):
That it's very, very important to me, and so really FENTANL.
Speaker 10 (23:35):
Faudors, I'd ask the school as soon as it happened,
I'll be glad to talk to kids about this.
Speaker 9 (23:39):
I'm open to talk about it. Is it fun?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
No?
Speaker 9 (23:42):
Is The preparation is grueling.
Speaker 10 (23:43):
It's not fun, but it's purposeful because at the end
of the day today I know that we're going to
save lives talking to them and this organization Fentanyl Faughthers
for any grieving parent that goes for this process gets
to the point.
Speaker 9 (23:54):
Good to talk about where now you go beyond the
fifth stage.
Speaker 10 (23:56):
There's actually a book about it now, the six stage degrees,
finding pain and to purpose. Somebody said, turning tragedy into triument.
God never wastes a hurt, but he needs us to
respond to that in order to do something good to
love others.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Well, let's talk about Fintaneil Fathers. Very interesting. It's just
about at the end of the program today. But another
nonprofit is offering a matching grant of one hundred and
fifty thousand dollars, meaning they'll match every dollar up to
one hundred and fifty thousand dollars that Fintonell Fathers can
raise up to that. So Finnell Fathers is an organization
that goes into schools and also has books and tapes
(24:34):
and training equipment to help moms and dads and others
who can have the maybe have the opportunity to go
into schools and teach. This so quick overview of Finnel Fathers.
Speaker 12 (24:46):
Fentel Fathers has a tight forty five minute program. We
go into schools, we educate kids on the day's ventyl
it's in motive with a brief parent. We show them
a movie, we give them the facts, and we make
a vow or a commitment at the end or tries
to all over die from fentanyl. We give them a
physical book called Victoria's Voice that is our benefactor with
(25:06):
one hundred and fifty thousand dollars grant and they've given
us this book to give out and they said anybody
up to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars will match.
So if you text one pill Kills to five zero
one five to five, you will be able to get
to our matching grant or go to Fentylfathers dot org
(25:26):
to donate.
Speaker 9 (25:27):
And we really appreciate your support.
Speaker 12 (25:29):
We're expanding, we're scaling and giving parents a purpose. There's
also a book available for free download called one thousand
and one Great Comebacks to Peer Pressure, and you can
download that for free at the front at the homepage,
and at the end of it there's a way. There's
a salvation message. Any brief parent, We want to hear
your story. Please come to our site and tell us
your story and we'll put you to work. We'll send
(25:51):
you the whole program on one USB stick and we'll
get you a gig talking at your local high school.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Wonderful. Well, there are there are some of you watching
the you can understand what we're talking about, or you
know of someone that this happened to. And this is
an outlet. This is a way to make a difference.
We have got to stand up and start helping to
save these young people that are being fooled by these
peals that are laced with fentanyl. We need to get
the message out, the word out. We are out of time,
(26:18):
But I don't you remember this is really important. And
Bob mentioned this in his grieving process and healing that
he had a relationship with the Lord. So I want
you to know that the Lord is near to the
broken hearted, and if you're walking through loss or pain,
you don't have to be alone. He will be with
you and he has plans for you. You know. Jeremiah
(26:43):
twenty nine to eleven is my favorite scripture. It says
he wants to give you a hope in a future.
Some of you think, well, there's just no way, you
don't know what all has happened. No, no, I'm telling
you that scripture is for you no matter where you are,
what you've been through, The Lord loves you as a
plan for your life. And if you have lost a
loved one, whether it be defendant, al or whatever, I
want you to know your life is not over. And
(27:04):
if you're watching today and you need prayer, you can
call that number on the screen. Our prayer partners are
standing by it. They would love to pray with you.
If you haven't invited Jesus into your heart, It's so
simple to do. Just say, dear Jesus, forgive me, Come
into my heart today, be Lord and Savior, and boom
it is done. You're not alone and you don't have
to be alone. Jesus said, I'll never leave you. I'll
(27:25):
never forsake you. It's simply a prayer away. So call
out on the Lord today. You've tried everything else, try Jesus.
I'm telling you you'll never be the same. Well. I
do want to thank Bob and Greg for joining us today.
For more, you can visit them online at Fitanolfathers dot org.
As always, make sure to follow us on all social media.
(27:46):
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for full episodes and exclusive content.
Let us know how table Talk is touching your life.
We love hearing from you. You can also listen to
the Joni Table Talk podcast, available now on all the
major platforms. I want to thank you so much for watching.
It's a heartfelt show, but hey, you needed to know
the information. I pray that you'll share this with your friends,
(28:08):
your family, your neighbors, and just know that we love you.
Thank you again Bob and Greg for being here today,
for sharing your stories, and we just appreciate your authenticity.
I know it's been a blessing to your audience. Hey
call that prayer line number if you need prayer today.
We love you. Bye Backward Today.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Content warning. This segment includes discussions of sensitive topics like
abuse and adult material. Viewer discretion advised.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Well, you know what, the world blurs the lines between
good and evil. God is calling believers to stand firm
in his truth. In today's guest reveals while she has
chosen to expose the true risk of transitional surgeries and
the danger of uninformed medical consent. But before we get
to that, joining around the table is April Simons. This
is a heavy subject, but it's important that we talk
(29:28):
about this. And I mean this may be a subject
that's not appropriate for small children to watch, but a
lot of people don't even understand what happens when somebody, say,
is born a male and wants to get the surgery
to become a female. They don't understand the complexities or
how dangerous that is.
Speaker 13 (29:48):
I myself will learn a lot here because we don't
talk about it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
And so it's great we're getting this information today. Yep,
Kendra welcome.
Speaker 14 (29:57):
Oh yeah, I just think about you know, I got
an email the other day for my thirteen year old.
They're going to talk about sex and education and abstinence
and all of that, and do they want to do
that school or would we rather do that?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, obviously we chose we wanted to do that.
Speaker 14 (30:11):
But my point to that is saying they're so young,
they don't understand what's happening. They're still learning their body,
they're still figuring things out, and today younger and younger
children are making this decision with.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Health of adults or doctors who are making or parenting
making decision. We're going to talk about that, and we
have a professional to talk about it. Rachel, I think
that's important.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Yeah, you know, it is important, and it's it's actually
just truly wild to me that we're even having to
do a show on this, is like, how are we
even how is this even something that's happening in our country?
And why aren't more moms standing up for babies and
our children and our kids for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Seeing we're under twenty years ago, you and I could
have never imagined we'd be sitting here talking.
Speaker 5 (30:56):
I never knew there were such a thing as transitioning
from one sex to another, but I think information hopefully
can like parents getting this kind of information, they'll realize
how horrible this would be to allow their child, yes
to go through something so tragic.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, we're so excited to have doctor Melanie Crite's back
with us, So welcome to the table.
Speaker 15 (31:18):
Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
It's so good to have you here. And I actually
am meeting you through our dear friend, doctor Simone Gold,
and she said, you have to meet Melanie. What she's
going to share is so very important because you know,
while many surgeons support sex change surgeries, doctor Melanie critz
Backer has chosen a different path. And today she explains
why she refuses to perform transitional procedures, and she's going
(31:43):
to reveal their hidden dangers. So you are what we
call a pelvic reconstructionist, right correct, And so there's not
a lot of you that know how to do this surgery,
right correct. Okay, so you know exactly what's going on
when these surgeries happen. What are some of the most
(32:04):
alarming things that you can share with our audience that
happens if people just don't know and understand.
Speaker 16 (32:11):
Well, that speaks to the point of informed consent or
lack thereof.
Speaker 15 (32:17):
And surgeons are supposed to.
Speaker 16 (32:19):
Go over the risks and benefits of surgery with patients.
That's part of the legalities, that's part of the oath
of do No harm, and that is severely lacking, and
so lots of times what happens are these patients are
just given a handout of some of the complications of
(32:39):
surgeries without the surgeon actually going over these complications with them.
And when you choose to undergo a surgery such as this,
there are a multitude of complications. It's not all sunshine
and roses after the surgery, and doctors are severely I
(33:00):
am just appalled at my colleagues and my profession because
we are just radically failing these patients by not giving
them the true picture of what's going on, and especially
with children.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
So psychiatrists and what kind of doctors are saying, yeah,
this is what you need to do without really understanding
the complexities associated with it. What other doctors do you
hear say, oh, yeah, this is what you should need.
Speaker 16 (33:24):
Yeah, So by the time they get to surgery, we're
kind of the last step. They've already generally gone through
their primary care provider or the endocrinologists or as for children, pediatricians.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
But these are not surgeons correct, These are not pelvic
reconstructions that understand how complex the male correct and the
female pelvic area is.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
And your purpose for being that type of surgeon was
and is to help, like women that have a fallen bladder,
or you're helping to reconstruct in a good way correct,
to make the body like it's supposed to function.
Speaker 16 (34:01):
Correct, And that's true reconstruction. Reconstruction is taking a tissue
that has failed and restoring it back to what it
could be, not taking a perfectly healthy tissue organ deconstructing
it and then fashioning something artificial.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
You had someone that came to your practice and that
was transitioning, that had a lot of issues going on,
and tell me what were your thoughts and what was
going on with that particular thing.
Speaker 16 (34:34):
So the patient was transitioning from a woman to a
man and was being given high doses of testosterone.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Which what does that do?
Speaker 16 (34:42):
By the way, so high doses of testosterone will when
we think of males that go through puberty, their voice deepens,
they start growing facial hair. Of course, the genitals start
enlarging and maturing.
Speaker 15 (34:58):
As they should.
Speaker 16 (35:00):
The same thing was happening with this woman who was
transitioning to a man.
Speaker 15 (35:06):
Voice was very deep, facial.
Speaker 16 (35:10):
Hair was very apparent, muscle mass increases, and notably for
women transitioning to male, the clitorists will enlarge. And that's
what high doses of testosterone do to women.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
And so she came to you because I'm sorry, I
will always call you what you're born.
Speaker 15 (35:33):
Yes, correct, your biological sex.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So she came to you and she was having what
kind of issue was referred to me for chronic pelvic pain,
So chronic pelvic pain.
Speaker 15 (35:44):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
And so you begin to look at her case and
you figured.
Speaker 15 (35:47):
Out I went through all of the normal, all of
the normal.
Speaker 16 (35:51):
Questioning and what's going on, and then we finally get
to the point of when when.
Speaker 15 (35:57):
Is this happening.
Speaker 16 (35:58):
Well, it's happening as soon as she awakens in the morning,
and it lasts for a couple of hours and then
it goes away. And actually what was happening was a
normal physiological process that happens to men in the mornings
in the case of morning erections. And what was so
appalling to me about this is I had to explain
(36:21):
this is what's happening to the patient. This was an
adult patient, and this information was not given to the patient.
It was not explained that these sorts of things would
start happening. Your body would start producing sensations and things
as men would experience. They understand, you know, they think
(36:43):
of the facial hair and the voice of deepening. That's
the most common that they expect. But the patient was
not expecting this sort of thing painful and it was
painful to the patient until the patient understood was going on.
Once once that happened, you know, and we understand, we
(37:07):
discussed that this is what it's.
Speaker 15 (37:09):
Supposed to happen to a man.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
You know.
Speaker 16 (37:12):
The patient, you know, understood and had more information to
be able to process what was happening, new things that
were happening to the body. But this was an adult patient.
That's what's so appalling to me is.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Think about the children.
Speaker 15 (37:25):
The children like, how to explain you did?
Speaker 2 (37:28):
How young are they transitioning children that you hear.
Speaker 16 (37:30):
About, Oh, my good goodness, anywhere from five, six, seven
years old.
Speaker 15 (37:37):
All the child has to do is say, well, you know,
I I think.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I feel like a boy or I have no idea
the pain that they're about to end. Correct, Like, just
let's just forget about the surgery for a minute. Like that,
women having their breast cut off, or or men that
are transitioning to women having body parts cut off, the
horrm owns themselves. It's so contrary to the way God
(38:05):
created us. Absolutely, So what does it do I mean
long term for a man to take female hormones at
big doses and for women to take male hormones at
big doses long term, because yeah, you can never stop
correct that, but what does that do to the body?
(38:25):
I mean you as a surgeon understanding that, so.
Speaker 15 (38:30):
Things surgically.
Speaker 16 (38:33):
Speaking, non surgically, when you're exposed to the opposite sex hormones.
A man taking high doses of estrogen, they are at
risk for cardiac disease. They're at risk for osteoporosis. We've
seen increased dementia for females taking high doses of testosterone.
(38:56):
There's a reason why when we supplement testosterone for men
having low testosterone that we monitor our blood work because
that creates the potential for cardiac problems. So for females
exposed to high doses of testosterone, same sorts of things, stroke,
heart disease.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Blood cloths, not to mention mentally correct Like to me,
that is probably the most important component that we could
talk about because it's what's going on up here and
the deception involved with it.
Speaker 9 (39:27):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
That is so sad because now we're seeing scores of
young people that had the surgery nine, ten, eleven, and
they get into their teen years, early twenties and they
look at the doctor and say, why did you allow this?
And I want to go back, and you can't go back.
Speaker 16 (39:45):
You can restore, you can restore to a certain extent,
but you can never restore tissue once that healthy tissue
has been deconstructed and then refashioned, deconstructed again and refashion
what was supposed to have been there, but it will
(40:06):
never function normally with complications of things of such as
fistulas and horrendous scar tissue nerve damage. You will never
have a healthy, normal, fulfilling intimate relationship with your partner.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
And you can take care of the hormones and get
them off the bad hormones right now.
Speaker 16 (40:31):
Once once a child, especially a child, and that's the
one thing that I want to you know, really drive
home here. For children, this is irreversible. Wow, this big pharma.
They are creating patients for life, very savvy, they know
what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Why is it not reversible? And kids?
Speaker 16 (40:51):
Because once you start hormonal manipulation on little bodies that
are just starting to develop, they need.
Speaker 15 (40:58):
Their normal hormones.
Speaker 16 (40:59):
If a little girl needs their normal amount of estrogen
for the ovaries and for the uterus to develop. If
you are halting that process and then bombarding with high
doses of testosterone, you're causing atrophy of those ovaries which
will never regain function.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Wow, So they can never have children.
Speaker 16 (41:19):
They likely will not be able to they to biologically
have have their own children. In the same the reverse
for a male, the testicles will atrophy, they will stop
producing sperm. So a child simply cannot. There is no
identifiable way to hit home, you know, and drive home
(41:45):
to these children because they're not old enough, they don't
have the life experience, they don't have wisdom to know
what these decisions are that they're making and the ramifications.
Speaker 15 (41:56):
In their adult life.
Speaker 16 (41:57):
And that's was so alarming in appall to me with
my profession and how my profession has failed the population.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Have you received a lot of pushback for your like
bold stands, especially not popular in the north like where
so much of this is you know, very I mean promoted.
Speaker 16 (42:17):
Yeah, I am not popular among those your voice, I
mean you are championing these children and these teenagers, and
your voice.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
You want to speak out because you genuinely want to
see people healed, and you don't want to see that
the correct destruction that you've seen as a result of this,
I think is really important.
Speaker 13 (42:42):
I'm interested to know since you said they don't give
the side effects of what the surgeries do. Do the
parents are they informed of the side effects, the long
term sete effects for these kids?
Speaker 16 (42:53):
Everything is glossed over, you know. I will tell you generally,
the parents are so far gone and they are so
entrenched in thinking that they're doing the proper thing for
their children.
Speaker 15 (43:06):
Whether that is.
Speaker 16 (43:07):
The influence of the school system or whether that's the
influence of a therapist. Parents are generally so entrenched that
they they don't understand. They just think that they are
doing what's best for their children.
Speaker 13 (43:21):
My brother's a surgeon, and I know you have to give,
just like you said, you have to give. This is
what could happen, and I'm shocked that they're just not
given it.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
It's just crazy.
Speaker 14 (43:31):
Yeah, So how many stories are you hearing where people
go and they have the surgery and then they come
back and they're having complications and now they're looking at
a lifelong of treatments of trying to deal with complications
from having this surgery and what their life looks like.
Speaker 16 (43:47):
Now, there are a large number, And in fact, there's
a law firm actually locally here in Dallas, Campbell Miller
in Pain and they are a group of God fearing
men basically left their corporate jobs because they felt led
by the Holy Spirit, and this is all that they do.
They are covered up in litigation. In fact, I have
(44:12):
spoken with them extensively to potentially be an expert witness
for them because surgeons aren't speaking out. They are covered
up in litigation for d transitioners.
Speaker 15 (44:23):
That's all they do.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
So kids are rising up and zaying, why don't you
tell me correct that this would change my life forever?
Speaker 15 (44:32):
Correct?
Speaker 5 (44:33):
Why is it so rare that surgeons won't take a
stand against this kind of surgery?
Speaker 15 (44:39):
Follow the money? And I say that wholeheartedly.
Speaker 16 (44:43):
I was a private practice doctor, so I was not salaried. Basically,
when you're a private practice surgeon, the more work you do,
the more you get paid. Of course, and a lot
of these doctors, I fully believe it is. It is
just corporate greed, and it is just the almighty dollar.
(45:04):
I mean, you know, the love of money is the
root of all evil. And these surgeries are incredibly lucrative.
When a patient starts down this road, they are a
patient for life. In fact, less does it cost I mean,
dred one hundred and twenty million dollars.
Speaker 15 (45:23):
I have my references right here. You know that.
Speaker 16 (45:30):
Between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty three, it was one
hundred and twenty million dollar industry to transition children. And
that was just that was just up until two years ago.
Now the explosion that we've seen, heaven only knows what
we're going to see, but it is a multimillion dollar industry.
(45:50):
As I said, the surgeries are incredibly lucrative. In fact,
the director of the department at Vanderbilt University was caught
on camera talking about how much money the transgender program
at Vanderbilt University was garnering from these surgeries.
Speaker 9 (46:06):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Well, well, I think we have a video of Chloe Cole,
who actually went through the transition process and now is
coming out saying it was the biggest mistake of her life.
Let's listen to what she has to say.
Speaker 17 (46:18):
My name is Chloe Cole and I am a dye Trenschner.
At the age of twelve, I began to experience what
my medical team would later diagnose as gender dysph You,
the gender specialist I was taken to taken to see,
told my parents that I need to be put on
puberty blocking drugs right away. They asked my parents a
simple question, would you rather have a dead daughter or
a living transgender son. I was fast tracked onto puberty
(46:41):
blockers and then distosterone. The resulting menopausal like hot flashes
made focusing on school impossible. I still get joint pains
and weird pops in my back, but they are far
worse when I was on the blockers. I had a
doublem mostectomy at fifteen, after my breasts were taken away
from me the tissue was incinerated. The drugs and surgeries
changed my body, but they did not and could not
(47:03):
change the basic reality that I am and forever will be,
a female. However, sixteen after my surgery, I did become suicidal.
I'm doing better now, but my parents almost got the
dead daughter promised to them by my doctors. My childhood
was ruined, along with thousands of detranitioners that I know
through our networks. This needs to stop. You alone can
(47:25):
stop it. Enough children have already been victimized by this
barbaric pseudoscience. Please let me be your final warning.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Thank you. I mean this is barbaric. I mean, I
can't even believe we're talking about this. It just makes
no sense when how many Chloees are there out there
like that that, I mean that have parents and doctors
have made the decision twelve years old. What do you
know when you're twelve years old and you're talking about adults.
They don't even have the correct information. How much is
(47:55):
spent on a person who transitions to surgeries and the
continued care? Are you saying per person? How much per person? About?
How much?
Speaker 16 (48:05):
It's generally about two hundred, two hundred and fifty thousand
dollars a year per per person?
Speaker 9 (48:11):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Wow? And then the continued care and that's.
Speaker 16 (48:15):
Just pharmacotherapy and follow ups. You add in surgeries if
they've had surgeries, if there are complications of those surgeries,
or if something happens later on.
Speaker 15 (48:28):
That you need to go back and revise.
Speaker 14 (48:31):
But it's not just the sexual pain that they experienced.
I mean she was talking about her joints, correct her
back popping from the.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
T I'm sorry.
Speaker 14 (48:39):
I get emotional because God created your body and it's
such a wonderful way to function the way you designed it.
And so when you take it out of that and
try to make it something that's not supposed to be,
the body is retaliating correct against itself. So what are
some of the other symptoms or the other type of
pain that people will experience from having this kind of surgery.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Yep.
Speaker 16 (48:59):
So the joint pain is very common, the chronic pelvic
pain that we that we talked about, the pain after
undergoing those surgeries, especially little kids, when little when when
when a baby's body and I say a baby because
they're just their babies to me, when their body is developing.
(49:22):
You can't take you can't take a developing body and
influence it the other way and not expect, not.
Speaker 15 (49:31):
Expect bad things to happen.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, Well, they be on hormones for the rest of
their life.
Speaker 5 (49:36):
Well, then, prescription wise, pharmaceuticals are making a fortune.
Speaker 15 (49:40):
That's correct.
Speaker 16 (49:41):
That's why I said they are. The pharmaceutical industry is very,
very savvy.
Speaker 4 (49:45):
What made you so passionate to join this way, especially
when there's so much that you could lose.
Speaker 16 (49:52):
Well, I didn't get the opportunity to be a mother myself,
and growing up in church, I was always involved in
the youth programs, and my daddy, who passed away in
two thousand and eight, didn't get the opportunity to be
a grandfather, and he just loved children and he would
always tell me, you got to take care of the
(50:14):
little fellers, and that's he always told me. You know
that children are our legacy. And God put me in
this position. I wasn't going to be a surgeon. I
was going into internal medicine. I did not want to
be a surgeon, Lord knows, I didn't want to be
a public reconstructive surgeon. But all of the doors just
(50:37):
kept opening and I was forced to make decisions in
my medical training career. I was forced to make decisions
very quickly. And when I was approached about doing a
public reconstructive fellowship, my husband, who I was dating at
the time, who has put up with more, God love him,
has put up with more headaches with my career than he.
(51:01):
But he said, you know what, if there's ever going
to be a doubt in your mind and you're ever
going to wonder what might have been, I want you
to do this fellowship, even though it meant two more
years apart in a long distance relationship.
Speaker 15 (51:12):
So I went ahead and did the fellowship.
Speaker 16 (51:14):
Well, now I understand why I was meant to be here.
Speaker 15 (51:19):
It was to take care of the little fellers. Yeah,
and it was.
Speaker 16 (51:23):
Because I'm not going to have a biological legacy. I
want to be known as the mother of America's children.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
That's so good. That's so good. So gender dysphoria, that's
a condition. Psychologically, it doesn't mean that you should go
and have a transitioning, life changing surgery, especially for children, teenagers,
preteens who aren't old enough to make a decision. Now
(51:51):
that so many are now coming forward and saying it
was a mistake, I mean, all you have to do
is just go to Instagram or YouTube and here's some
of these stories. Yeah, here's some of these individuals say
that they just named mental health right to help them
process what would you say to a parent this watching
that has a child that's saying this, and everyone is
saying they need to do this, what would you say
(52:12):
to them?
Speaker 15 (52:12):
I would I would quote them.
Speaker 16 (52:14):
The study from twenty eighteen say that shows that most children,
upwards of eighty percent of children desist naturally with puberty.
So what these children and what your children are experiencing
is nothing new. We've been experiencing this since the beginning
(52:37):
of time.
Speaker 15 (52:37):
All of us have.
Speaker 16 (52:38):
We've all had to go through the horrors of adolescence
and trying to figure out our bodies and everything's confusing.
Take them to church because I am convinced we don't
have a gender dysphoria problem. We've got a people don't
know Jesus problem.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yes, that's right, that's so good. That's so good. It's wild.
Speaker 4 (52:57):
There's a lot of people that are watching that I
feel like are going to be inspired by your goold stance.
Moms and dads and grandparents. Is there something that they
can do to join this fight and to help.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
Maybe change this?
Speaker 4 (53:09):
Uh, you know, legislation or you know what what are
what can people do?
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Yeah? In aformation like to have real information?
Speaker 16 (53:15):
Yes, absolutely so there are Uh, there are a number
of resources UH. Conservative Counselors dot com, Association for Mental
Health Professionals dot org.
Speaker 15 (53:27):
These are for.
Speaker 16 (53:28):
Mental health resources, do No Harmmedicine dot org for resources
and how to combat these sorts of things.
Speaker 15 (53:36):
Doctor Miriam Grossman.
Speaker 16 (53:37):
Has a wonderful book out called Lost in TransNation that
is a wonderful resource for parents to understand, uh, the
background of this and and how to speak with their children.
There is also a book out by Pamela jeger Garfield.
Speaker 15 (53:53):
I believe I got that right.
Speaker 16 (53:56):
She is a licensed social worker that actually was working
out in the field and wrote this book and how
to deal with school boards and your social social circumstances.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Right, because you have some schools that are leaving the parents.
The parents, yeah, they know. Yeah, So thank you for
being here today, thank you for the opportunity, and thank
you for sharing. And you know, I think at the
end of the day, what all of us would say
here at the table is that regardless of what the
public arena is saying, that we have to do what
we feel is pleasing in the side of the Lord
(54:28):
and what lines up with the word of God. And
we know that He created male and female and so
it's important to keep that stand and it bypasses any
other political opinion that's out there, even though it may
not be popular. We're going to try to do the
right thing and continue to do the right thing. I
know you are too. We are out of time. I
(54:49):
want you to remember that no one is beyond saving,
no matter what you may have done in the past,
even those that are watching right now that you may
have transitioned. I just want to tell you there's always hope.
I've interviewed wald Hire, you know who transitioned like in
the eighties from a male to a female back to
(55:11):
a male and is doing great, got married and now
God's using him to help in this area. And he
can do that for you. So don't think that your
life is over, that God can't use you, or he
can't bring peace in your situation, because he can. Jesus
(55:32):
is always ready and waiting to redeem all of us today,
and all we have to do is just call in
his name and say Jesus, and he'll show up just
like that, and he'll meet you right where you are.
So if you don't know him today, that is the
most important thing we can share with you. Just do
that and allow him to come in and do something
(55:53):
that only he can do in your life. Well, I
want to thank doctor Melanie Crite's backward for joining us today.
For more information on the documentary What Is a Doctor,
you can visit aflds dot org and that's America's frontline
Frontline Doctors. As always, make sure to follow us on
all social media. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for full episodes,
(56:14):
exclusive content. Let us know how table Talk is touching
your life. We love hearing from you, and of course
you can also listen to the Joni Table Talk podcasts
avable and now on all major platforms. I know this
has been a serious this a heavy topic, but I'm
just telling you these are topics that the church needs
to address and we need to talk about what's going on,
what's happening, and how we are damaging our young people,
(56:37):
our children, and we need to be a clear and
concise voice to speak truth. So thank you for listening,
thank you for watching, and I hope you'll take this
information and share it with others and that you never
know the Lord may use you to help someone to
bring truth and clarity in a situation. We'll see you
next time. By by for today,
Content warning. This segment includes discussions of sensitive topics like
abuse and adult material. You were discussion advised.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, Finnahl is a silent killer, stealing countless lives without warning.
But today's guests are bringing light to the darkness, turning
grief into action and stories into lifelines for those who
need them most. It's a very serious subject. But before
we get to that, joining around the table is Dorothy Newton.
You know this is important to talk about, but there
(00:54):
are some sad stories attached to it. It's so sad.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
But you know what our guests today, they're my heroes
because the courage. How they're using their courage and their
pain for the greater good. Yeah, is just amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Amen, rachel An Brown.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
I think it's beautiful to see how people take their
pain and they turn it into their purpose and something
that was really tragic in their lives. Yes, good can
still come from it. And I know that's really hard
to even imagine. How could anything good happen from something
so bad? But today's guests are an example of how
you can turn it around.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
That's right. You know that scripture that says God will
take what the enemy meant for evil and turn it
for good, so sometimes it's hard to leave that can
even happen. Cindy Murder, I.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
Welcome this, thank you, and it's going to bring an awareness,
I think, to the public because you hear about fitton
On trying to stop it in the news all the time.
But I think this is going to bring some skin
to that story and help people to understand how real
life peoplea well.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Greg Swan and Bob Kissling, welcome to the table. Thank
you for having the courage to be here today and
share your story. I know that it's going to be
a blessing to all of those that you are watching
in a wake up call for some of you, because
no parents should ever have to endure the heartbreak of
losing a child. Well, today, Greg Swan and Robert Kessling
share how finanyl fathers is turning their personal tragedies into
(02:22):
a powerful message of hope. What is fittanyl Well, let's
just take a look. Fittinel is sealing lives and grieving
parents are sounding the alarm. This video shows why every
family needs to know the risk.
Speaker 6 (02:40):
It's a drug fifty times more potent than heroin, and
doctors say just touching it can send you to the
emergency room. We're talking about the synthetic opioid fentanyl, and all.
Speaker 7 (02:52):
Social media app has changed the game when it comes
to narcotics. Ventanels all over the place and just massive
amounts of it, and some of them are going to
fall trapped. About four years ago, DA in Arizona seized
zero fentanyl. This last year we sees enough fentanyl to
kill seventy million people. You're playing Russian roulette out there
when you're taking these pills and you're buying the stuff
off the street.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
This is my son Alexander. He died at fourteen years
old from fentanyl poisoning.
Speaker 8 (03:17):
This is our daughter Jessica. She was twenty nine years
old when she was killed by fentanyl.
Speaker 9 (03:23):
This is my daughter alex.
Speaker 10 (03:26):
She was murdered at twenty years old by a drug
dealer who sold her a counterfeit pill made of fentanyl.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
This is my son Daniel Joseph Parta Johnson, killed at
the age of sixteen by illicit fentanyl.
Speaker 11 (03:42):
This is my son, my son.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
What you have to understand about a lot of these
kids is they thought they were buying a Zanetz, percoset
or some other pill. They had no idea that it
was laced with vitanyl. So Greg tell us, why are
they lacing it with vitanyl? And who is lacing it
(04:33):
with ventanyl? And are they really trying to kill a generation?
Speaker 12 (04:38):
There's a conspiracy theory out there that they are, but
it seems obvious or purposeful.
Speaker 9 (04:44):
I mean, you can make up your own mind.
Speaker 12 (04:45):
But the precursors come in from China, that's a fact,
and they're offloaded into Mexico where they're pressed, and they're
shipped up through mules into the United States through distribution networks,
and they're ubiquitous throughout the United States. To the current
administration's credit, they have shut down the border to a
(05:08):
tremendous degree, ninety five percent of what it was. But still, sadly,
Americans are hired to take this stuff across the border
because they're so easy to move, because they're pills and
they're made in jungles, they're made in non labs where
they're mixed, and they're mixed unevenly only two point one milligrams.
(05:29):
Put that in perspective, there's two thousand milligrams in a
packet of sugar, So two milligrams will kill you. And
what's happened is that it's put in there to extend
the effects of the drug or the life of the drug.
And they're selling famous brands in the farmer world, percocet
xanax oxycoton adderall and it's being definitely in the methamphetamines
(05:51):
and it's definitely an illicit marijuana now, so you.
Speaker 9 (05:54):
Got to be really, really careful.
Speaker 12 (05:55):
But they put it in there, and kids are buying
it on online social.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Media, not realizing that it's laced with fish.
Speaker 12 (06:02):
They have no idea. They think it's real. It comes
even in a fake prescription bottle.
Speaker 9 (06:06):
But you can't go by sight.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Okay, well you know, I know, we have a video
to show you kind of This really puts an in
perspective of how powerful fitanyl is and what a tiny
amount can do to any young person that takes it.
Let's watch this.
Speaker 8 (06:25):
This would be how much cocaine somebody would have to
ingest to kill them. This is the approximate number of
prescription pills one would have to ingest to kill them.
(06:45):
This is the amount of heroin the average person would
have to ingest to kill them. Ventanyl. You got to
bring that camera up here real close to see it.
This much fentanyl would kill you and I if we
(07:07):
split it. They put fentanyl in cocaine, they put fentanyl
in heroin. They put fentanyl, as we already know and
talked about, into counterfeit pills. It's odorless, it's tasteless. You
don't know it's there, and when you find out it's there,
it's too late. You won't even know it. You'll be dead.
(07:28):
Twenty five hundred people would be killed by that amount
of fentanyl. Does that sound like a drug to you?
Does that sound more.
Speaker 9 (07:36):
Like a poison.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Okay, so Greg, we'll start with you. Tell us about Drew,
who loved God, good boy, did.
Speaker 12 (07:46):
All the altar calls every time, just to be sure
you'd always go up.
Speaker 9 (07:51):
And he was a lovely young man, Mary. He was
a good looking kid.
Speaker 12 (07:57):
He was a model, and he was he was very,
very smart. He had like a one sixty i Q,
which is two below Einstein's. And I loved him. He
was my He was my number one guy. He said, Dad,
You've always been my hero. And I just adored him
from the day he was born. He was the happiest
day of my life.
Speaker 9 (08:15):
And he knows that, and he always would it would
tell me that, and he was. He lived a great life.
Speaker 12 (08:21):
He was a great athlete, was state champion as a freshman,
MVP of the tennis team. But when he got into college,
he had an injury from wrestling and he hurt himself.
He was put on a painkiller called percocet, and he
liked it. And unfortunately, there's a certain amount of us,
and I'm included in this group who are predisposed to addiction.
Speaker 9 (08:41):
I'm in recovery and have been for my dull life.
Speaker 12 (08:44):
And he felt, I would say, victim to being addicted
to it, called us and said I got a problem
with these painkillers.
Speaker 9 (08:53):
I can't get off of them.
Speaker 12 (08:54):
I'm buying them illegally, illicitly.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So he was buying them off the internet, was he was?
Speaker 9 (09:01):
He was, Yeah, he was getting them illicitly. He was
getting oxy cotton.
Speaker 12 (09:05):
I have a friend ed Bish who took down the
Sackler family for making that stuff available initially, which started
the opioid epidemic.
Speaker 9 (09:15):
But he he was running up a seven.
Speaker 12 (09:18):
Hundred dollars tab on buying these things, and that's where
he had calls and have us bail them out. And
we sent him into rehabit rosecrans.
Speaker 9 (09:28):
He took it seriously.
Speaker 12 (09:28):
He got clean, He went down to Florida to his
halfway house to get better, studied, liked Florida.
Speaker 9 (09:33):
And was living there on his own, doing well. I
was super proud of him.
Speaker 12 (09:38):
We had a great weekend together at Epcot Center.
Speaker 9 (09:41):
Our last one together and how much Tom.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Passed, but where he really got clean and was doing good.
Speaker 12 (09:47):
He was a year and a half and he rode
all that beautiful blogs and you know, all these great
talks on the phone. It was our Drew. We had
our Drew back. You know, we text each other about
the latest Jim Carrey movie and he'd say, he's not
number one for a reason, man. And we just had
a great time together. And I just adored him. And
I really have to lean into my faith to just
(10:09):
think about the times are going to have with him
an eternity. And yeah, you're lost when you're you're in
a desert when you lose your.
Speaker 9 (10:15):
Kid, it's bad, And but advocating is the way out.
Speaker 12 (10:20):
You're you're put into the grave when you lose your kid,
I believe, and the way out is to advocate and
save other kids in his name, right, So what happened.
So he took an unprescribed pill from a roommate and
another guy named Rico he was looking for an apartment with,
noticed he had pinpoint pupils and was shallow breathing, and
(10:42):
he knew something was wrong with him and said, Drew, what.
Speaker 9 (10:45):
Is going on with you?
Speaker 12 (10:46):
And he had taken it because he had relapsed at
a rave a little earlier in the month, in March,
and he called his mom and said, I got to
get back on track. Told his brother didn't tell me
he was didn't want to reveal that to me, and
he took a methadone what he thought was methodone. The
rule of thumb is if you take an unprescribed pill
(11:07):
eight and ten times, it'll kill you dead like raid
kills bugs.
Speaker 9 (11:10):
It just there's no exceptions.
Speaker 12 (11:12):
If it's not prescribed you from your doctor, it's more
most likely containing fentanyl, like greatly likely. And his roommate said,
can I help you?
Speaker 9 (11:22):
Is there anything I can do?
Speaker 12 (11:23):
He said, no, just let me go home and sleep
this off. He staggered into his house, fell down, chipped
his tooth, got a little blood on his face, hopped
into his bed, laid back down and died right there
because he stopped breathing, because overdoses happened where there's the
backstem of your brain stopped your automatic breathe in, breathe out,
and he stopped breathing and passed away. His roommate knew
(11:45):
something was wrong. His would be roommate, Rico, knew something
was wrong. The next day, busted into his room, found him,
got a hold of my son Jack on Facebook, who
called me and said, are you sitting down? And I
was sleeping at the time, and shock went through me.
He goes, I need you to be sitting down right now,
and I was, and he said Drew's dead. And it
started kind of a nightmare wilderness experience, you know, the
(12:08):
brief parents let out this universal animalistic sound that Ian
Tease tell me are is.
Speaker 9 (12:15):
Everybody makes the same sound.
Speaker 12 (12:17):
It's not even a noise, It's a sound from the wilderness,
from ages of past. And I, you know, eventually, through
many trial and error of things that didn't work, which
was I relapsed at one point back back in the day,
but I also just support groups and counseling and church.
Speaker 9 (12:40):
None of it worked for me.
Speaker 12 (12:41):
Until I started getting even with death and we started
fentyl fathers. We started going telling kids like Paul Revere,
you need to under no circumstances go near an unprescribed pill.
First of all, you could get addicted to opioids. Secondly,
the stuff will kill you dead, you Little Einstein's.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Right, and you don't. A lot of the kids don't
understand that these what they think are prescription pills look
exactly like I mean exactly like prescription pills, and yet
they are laced with vintnall. How many kids have been
killed that we know.
Speaker 12 (13:14):
Of since twenty Since twenty nineteen, there's been.
Speaker 9 (13:17):
Five hundred thousand who have died.
Speaker 12 (13:19):
Has been one hundred and seven one hundred and ten
hundred and fourteen thousand in the last three years. It's
been unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Five hundred thousand, five hundred.
Speaker 12 (13:29):
Thousand died of fentel poisoning since twenty nineteen. That is
a million bereaved parents, one million of us gutted of
everything and looking for a purpose or direction or a reset.
And so we invite them to come to the Fentylfathers
dot Org and we'll put them back in the game
and have them talk to high schools and warn them about.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
It why I think that they would lace these things
with bentanol because they're literally killing their customers.
Speaker 9 (13:55):
We get that question, asked a lot.
Speaker 12 (13:57):
There's almost unlimited demand for the opiumoids and the effect
that the opioids do, which is a synthetic version of
heroin painkiller. And there's like I said, I air quoted
the conspiracy theory because it just might be you got
half a million young Americans dead, mostly by a fentanyl
(14:18):
who wanted us dead?
Speaker 9 (14:19):
Where did it come from? What were the motives behind it?
Speaker 12 (14:22):
No shot was fired, yet we have a slaughter of
Americans youth that if you put the numbers together, Vietnam, COVID,
all cancer of up to age thirty nine, all drunk driving,
all in nine to eleven attack added all up, it's
less All those famous deaths and global plane crashes since
twenty thousand and six added up, is less than.
Speaker 9 (14:43):
One year's worth of fentyl deaths.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Like a different way of having war.
Speaker 9 (14:47):
It'd be hard to argue with you.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, Bob, I want to get to your story because
I cannot imagine losing two children on the same night
to fit in all poison. Tell us about Kyler and.
Speaker 10 (15:01):
Caleb, So Kyler had just finished his school and so
they went off to celebrate throughs. This is COVID time,
strange circumstances. So I said, all right, we're going to
go to a hotel and celebrate with three other kids.
I like, I'll take you there, because they had already
started partying, like you stay here, be safe, don't go
(15:22):
on the road.
Speaker 9 (15:23):
I thought they were safe.
Speaker 10 (15:25):
Next day, twelve o'clock we were to get together for
dinner and to go get a car. One activity with
each of the boys. Didn't answer. Two o'clock, three o'clock,
no answer. My kids being irresponsible again. Five thirt ay,
get the call from the police. Please come to the hotel.
What's the problem, officer? We can't tell you can just
come to the hotel. And I knew then that this
(15:46):
is not good. So I got a ride to the
hotel and on the scene, the detective told me right
away the boys were upstairs.
Speaker 9 (15:52):
They passed. Here are the signs.
Speaker 10 (15:54):
He described the signs to us to me, and he
showed pictures of the pills. They said, we think it's Ventanyl.
We already had two of these happen just the other day.
It's happening all around us.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
What did you think in that moment when you heard
that news.
Speaker 10 (16:10):
There isn't a lot of thinking. I'd say I probably
went through a shock where it's just like, Okay, this
has happened, and there's not a lot of thoughts that
go through my head.
Speaker 9 (16:21):
I could feel the life drained out of me.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Ye, Dorothy, can you imagine? I really can't.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Do you have other kids that you have to go
back and tell your wife kids?
Speaker 10 (16:33):
So part of that is I had to stay on
mission because I was there for two hours at the scene,
a lot of police and around because it was a
crime scene they treated like a crime And yeah, so
I had to tell their mom and their younger three
younger sisters wow, and be concerned for them and be
there for them.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
So now Kyler and Caleb were adopted, Yes, And I
know I saw some journal entries earlier where they had
actually written to you and said, hey, Dad, we want
to get our life on track, you know, and I
(17:14):
love you, And they were planning for their future. And
I know that those letters and diary entries must mean
a lot to you now. And I think that's one
of the things I want to say to people watching,
is that these kids that we're talking about were not
terrible drug addicts, you know, they were kids that made
(17:35):
a bad decision, not understanding that these pills are laced
with fentanyl, and how much fentanyl is coming across the border.
How much fintanyl is in America right now? Are they
trying to seize it and get it out of the country.
I mean, what's going on with that? What do you
know about that?
Speaker 12 (17:55):
There's enough to kill every man, woman and child three
times over right now in the country. They're trying to
steal it off. But it's ubiquitous, it's everywhere. If we
want to talk a principle into letting us into the school,
we'll say, hey, just give us one shot, and we
will pretend we're someone on Snapchat wanting to buy percocets, xenix,
oxygon adderall, and we'll show a heat map around that school,
(18:18):
and we'll show the principle that your school's in a
firing squad of drug dealers. What are you going to
do about it? And your kids are exposed and they're vulnerable.
And then they say, come on and warn them, And
that's what we're trying to do. Two thirds of kids
who die our first time experimenter's users that had no
idea that they were going.
Speaker 9 (18:38):
To die for.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
They thought they were getting.
Speaker 12 (18:40):
They thought they were going to get something to make
relax or pay free or if they want to stay
up and study, which is very common in the early
college years for finals, give.
Speaker 9 (18:49):
Me an addie. You got an addy.
Speaker 12 (18:51):
If it's not from your doctor, it has fentanyl in it.
They that's the message, and yeah, they think they're going
to get a shortcut because they don't need a prescription
from a doctor.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
The acronym for Safe Students Advocating for venterol Education.
Speaker 9 (19:05):
So we a group in Miami.
Speaker 12 (19:08):
Some two gals started it. One got a full ride
to Michigan because she started it. And we've got twenty
five chapters all over the country where students are now
advocating to know where the the lozone is in the school,
to reverse an overdose, to come in and.
Speaker 9 (19:27):
Be aware like the show the emotive movies that we
do to.
Speaker 12 (19:31):
Have one thousand and one great comebacks to peer pressure,
which is a book available on our home site where
they can practice and role play how to make the
person tempting them to have drugs feel like the more
on rather than.
Speaker 9 (19:46):
Them feel less than like are you thinking this through?
Speaker 12 (19:50):
One thousand and one different ways to say that with
style points and so students advocating federal education, we are
happy to launch as a national group is run by kids,
and we're really proud of them.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
So there is something that you can take if you're overdosing.
How they even know if they're overdosing? Like, how is
that time period? Because I thought it was like so quick.
Speaker 12 (20:09):
The community that is the harm reduction community, says never
use alone. I would say, how about just never use,
but they you want to be with somebody who has
access to narcan and within four to seven minutes, if
someone goes down, their pupils are dilated or they're just
not breathing, they're having an overdose.
Speaker 9 (20:28):
If it's a frat.
Speaker 12 (20:30):
Party and someone's just drunk and you give them the
locks in their nose, you do no.
Speaker 9 (20:37):
Harm to them.
Speaker 12 (20:37):
So it wouldn't even hurt a baby, but it will
reverse the effects.
Speaker 9 (20:41):
It'll take those receptors.
Speaker 12 (20:43):
And open it up so they can automatically start breathing
and breathe out. They call it the Lazarus drug, and
so they want to get that out there in ubiquitous.
It should be everywhere fire hydrant or is in a school,
you know, fire extinguisher or an EMT thing. It should
be and I think now will be well, Bob, let's talk.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
A little bit about the grieving process. Because you had
a long grieving process of about three years. You never
dreamed you'd be sitting here or telling your story or
doing what you're doing. But why was that healing for you?
And why was that part of the restoration, if you will,
of your heart?
Speaker 10 (21:22):
So, I mean, people understand the grieving process. You know
the five stages of grief, right, so you go through
when there's you, you can't predict or tell which one's
going to pop. It said, acceptance or anger or being
sadness just devastating, absolutely devastating. Is I feel hollow inside
for the longest time, and going through that process, it
(21:44):
can really just you don't want to do anything in
life anymore. It can just really go you. And I
recognize that, boy, I could just go down into the
depths with this.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
So I even though you had the three girls that
needed you as.
Speaker 10 (21:57):
Well, Yeah, well there are those roles that I could
still play. I still had to play dad, I still
had to go to work, in ten days, I still
had to be the ministry lead for our cr program,
our recovery program. So I kept on doing those because
time alone is like a scary time during that time
because it's dark, but filling it with people that no
(22:18):
one can care, having people around you that you can
know them, know how to respond and care, having that
support neck around you had built that.
Speaker 9 (22:23):
I had that very fortunate.
Speaker 10 (22:25):
I had that and a strong relationship with the Lord
and seeking really input from elders as well as have
gone through the process and has gone through grieving, and
so when you get through that. About three years I
went through that process and then I said, Okay, God,
what's next?
Speaker 9 (22:40):
What's next? And it was really.
Speaker 10 (22:42):
To go out and do something to not let anybody
else go under this.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I would just say, sitting here, you're doing great, by
the way, but it's probably not your personality to get
up and stand and talk about what happened with your
boys or to share. So when the Lord kind of
put that on your heart, was it hard to step
into that role or have you found disgrate fulfillment from
doing that?
Speaker 10 (23:07):
Well, First, I feel it's the father's duty to extend
themselves to the community.
Speaker 9 (23:11):
Yeah, and we.
Speaker 10 (23:13):
Have to as a culture and as me personally, I
have to do something that there's so there's a compulsion.
I think there's an obedience too. When you look at
twenty four to eleven, you know those who hold back,
those who are heading towards slaughter. And it talks about
our conscious being stirred and being moved to conscious to
act on our conscience.
Speaker 9 (23:32):
That it's very, very important to me, and so really FENTANL.
Speaker 10 (23:35):
Faudors, I'd ask the school as soon as it happened,
I'll be glad to talk to kids about this.
Speaker 9 (23:39):
I'm open to talk about it. Is it fun?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
No?
Speaker 9 (23:42):
Is The preparation is grueling.
Speaker 10 (23:43):
It's not fun, but it's purposeful because at the end
of the day today I know that we're going to
save lives talking to them and this organization Fentanyl Faughthers
for any grieving parent that goes for this process gets
to the point.
Speaker 9 (23:54):
Good to talk about where now you go beyond the
fifth stage.
Speaker 10 (23:56):
There's actually a book about it now, the six stage degrees,
finding pain and to purpose. Somebody said, turning tragedy into triument.
God never wastes a hurt, but he needs us to
respond to that in order to do something good to
love others.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Well, let's talk about Fintaneil Fathers. Very interesting. It's just
about at the end of the program today. But another
nonprofit is offering a matching grant of one hundred and
fifty thousand dollars, meaning they'll match every dollar up to
one hundred and fifty thousand dollars that Fintonell Fathers can
raise up to that. So Finnell Fathers is an organization
that goes into schools and also has books and tapes
(24:34):
and training equipment to help moms and dads and others
who can have the maybe have the opportunity to go
into schools and teach. This so quick overview of Finnel Fathers.
Speaker 12 (24:46):
Fentel Fathers has a tight forty five minute program. We
go into schools, we educate kids on the day's ventyl
it's in motive with a brief parent. We show them
a movie, we give them the facts, and we make
a vow or a commitment at the end or tries
to all over die from fentanyl. We give them a
physical book called Victoria's Voice that is our benefactor with
(25:06):
one hundred and fifty thousand dollars grant and they've given
us this book to give out and they said anybody
up to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars will match.
So if you text one pill Kills to five zero
one five to five, you will be able to get
to our matching grant or go to Fentylfathers dot org
(25:26):
to donate.
Speaker 9 (25:27):
And we really appreciate your support.
Speaker 12 (25:29):
We're expanding, we're scaling and giving parents a purpose. There's
also a book available for free download called one thousand
and one Great Comebacks to Peer Pressure, and you can
download that for free at the front at the homepage,
and at the end of it there's a way. There's
a salvation message. Any brief parent, We want to hear
your story. Please come to our site and tell us
your story and we'll put you to work. We'll send
(25:51):
you the whole program on one USB stick and we'll
get you a gig talking at your local high school.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Wonderful. Well, there are there are some of you watching
the you can understand what we're talking about, or you
know of someone that this happened to. And this is
an outlet. This is a way to make a difference.
We have got to stand up and start helping to
save these young people that are being fooled by these
peals that are laced with fentanyl. We need to get
the message out, the word out. We are out of time,
(26:18):
But I don't you remember this is really important. And
Bob mentioned this in his grieving process and healing that
he had a relationship with the Lord. So I want
you to know that the Lord is near to the
broken hearted, and if you're walking through loss or pain,
you don't have to be alone. He will be with
you and he has plans for you. You know. Jeremiah
(26:43):
twenty nine to eleven is my favorite scripture. It says
he wants to give you a hope in a future.
Some of you think, well, there's just no way, you
don't know what all has happened. No, no, I'm telling
you that scripture is for you no matter where you are,
what you've been through, The Lord loves you as a
plan for your life. And if you have lost a
loved one, whether it be defendant, al or whatever, I
want you to know your life is not over. And
(27:04):
if you're watching today and you need prayer, you can
call that number on the screen. Our prayer partners are
standing by it. They would love to pray with you.
If you haven't invited Jesus into your heart, It's so
simple to do. Just say, dear Jesus, forgive me, Come
into my heart today, be Lord and Savior, and boom
it is done. You're not alone and you don't have
to be alone. Jesus said, I'll never leave you. I'll
(27:25):
never forsake you. It's simply a prayer away. So call
out on the Lord today. You've tried everything else, try Jesus.
I'm telling you you'll never be the same. Well. I
do want to thank Bob and Greg for joining us today.
For more, you can visit them online at Fitanolfathers dot org.
As always, make sure to follow us on all social media.
(27:46):
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for full episodes and exclusive content.
Let us know how table Talk is touching your life.
We love hearing from you. You can also listen to
the Joni Table Talk podcast, available now on all the
major platforms. I want to thank you so much for watching.
It's a heartfelt show, but hey, you needed to know
the information. I pray that you'll share this with your friends,
(28:08):
your family, your neighbors, and just know that we love you.
Thank you again Bob and Greg for being here today,
for sharing your stories, and we just appreciate your authenticity.
I know it's been a blessing to your audience. Hey
call that prayer line number if you need prayer today.
We love you. Bye Backward Today.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Content warning. This segment includes discussions of sensitive topics like
abuse and adult material. Viewer discretion advised.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Well, you know what, the world blurs the lines between
good and evil. God is calling believers to stand firm
in his truth. In today's guest reveals while she has
chosen to expose the true risk of transitional surgeries and
the danger of uninformed medical consent. But before we get
to that, joining around the table is April Simons. This
is a heavy subject, but it's important that we talk
(29:28):
about this. And I mean this may be a subject
that's not appropriate for small children to watch, but a
lot of people don't even understand what happens when somebody, say,
is born a male and wants to get the surgery
to become a female. They don't understand the complexities or
how dangerous that is.
Speaker 13 (29:48):
I myself will learn a lot here because we don't
talk about it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
And so it's great we're getting this information today. Yep,
Kendra welcome.
Speaker 14 (29:57):
Oh yeah, I just think about you know, I got
an email the other day for my thirteen year old.
They're going to talk about sex and education and abstinence
and all of that, and do they want to do
that school or would we rather do that?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, obviously we chose we wanted to do that.
Speaker 14 (30:11):
But my point to that is saying they're so young,
they don't understand what's happening. They're still learning their body,
they're still figuring things out, and today younger and younger
children are making this decision with.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Health of adults or doctors who are making or parenting
making decision. We're going to talk about that, and we
have a professional to talk about it. Rachel, I think
that's important.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Yeah, you know, it is important, and it's it's actually
just truly wild to me that we're even having to
do a show on this, is like, how are we
even how is this even something that's happening in our country?
And why aren't more moms standing up for babies and
our children and our kids for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Seeing we're under twenty years ago, you and I could
have never imagined we'd be sitting here talking.
Speaker 5 (30:56):
I never knew there were such a thing as transitioning
from one sex to another, but I think information hopefully
can like parents getting this kind of information, they'll realize
how horrible this would be to allow their child, yes
to go through something so tragic.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, we're so excited to have doctor Melanie Crite's back
with us, So welcome to the table.
Speaker 15 (31:18):
Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
It's so good to have you here. And I actually
am meeting you through our dear friend, doctor Simone Gold,
and she said, you have to meet Melanie. What she's
going to share is so very important because you know,
while many surgeons support sex change surgeries, doctor Melanie critz
Backer has chosen a different path. And today she explains
why she refuses to perform transitional procedures, and she's going
(31:43):
to reveal their hidden dangers. So you are what we
call a pelvic reconstructionist, right correct, And so there's not
a lot of you that know how to do this surgery,
right correct. Okay, so you know exactly what's going on
when these surgeries happen. What are some of the most
(32:04):
alarming things that you can share with our audience that
happens if people just don't know and understand.
Speaker 16 (32:11):
Well, that speaks to the point of informed consent or
lack thereof.
Speaker 15 (32:17):
And surgeons are supposed to.
Speaker 16 (32:19):
Go over the risks and benefits of surgery with patients.
That's part of the legalities, that's part of the oath
of do No harm, and that is severely lacking, and
so lots of times what happens are these patients are
just given a handout of some of the complications of
(32:39):
surgeries without the surgeon actually going over these complications with them.
And when you choose to undergo a surgery such as this,
there are a multitude of complications. It's not all sunshine
and roses after the surgery, and doctors are severely I
(33:00):
am just appalled at my colleagues and my profession because
we are just radically failing these patients by not giving
them the true picture of what's going on, and especially
with children.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
So psychiatrists and what kind of doctors are saying, yeah,
this is what you need to do without really understanding
the complexities associated with it. What other doctors do you
hear say, oh, yeah, this is what you should need.
Speaker 16 (33:24):
Yeah, So by the time they get to surgery, we're
kind of the last step. They've already generally gone through
their primary care provider or the endocrinologists or as for children, pediatricians.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
But these are not surgeons correct, These are not pelvic
reconstructions that understand how complex the male correct and the
female pelvic area is.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
And your purpose for being that type of surgeon was
and is to help, like women that have a fallen bladder,
or you're helping to reconstruct in a good way correct,
to make the body like it's supposed to function.
Speaker 16 (34:01):
Correct, And that's true reconstruction. Reconstruction is taking a tissue
that has failed and restoring it back to what it
could be, not taking a perfectly healthy tissue organ deconstructing
it and then fashioning something artificial.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
You had someone that came to your practice and that
was transitioning, that had a lot of issues going on,
and tell me what were your thoughts and what was
going on with that particular thing.
Speaker 16 (34:34):
So the patient was transitioning from a woman to a
man and was being given high doses of testosterone.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Which what does that do?
Speaker 16 (34:42):
By the way, so high doses of testosterone will when
we think of males that go through puberty, their voice deepens,
they start growing facial hair. Of course, the genitals start
enlarging and maturing.
Speaker 15 (34:58):
As they should.
Speaker 16 (35:00):
The same thing was happening with this woman who was
transitioning to a man.
Speaker 15 (35:06):
Voice was very deep, facial.
Speaker 16 (35:10):
Hair was very apparent, muscle mass increases, and notably for
women transitioning to male, the clitorists will enlarge. And that's
what high doses of testosterone do to women.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
And so she came to you because I'm sorry, I
will always call you what you're born.
Speaker 15 (35:33):
Yes, correct, your biological sex.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So she came to you and she was having what
kind of issue was referred to me for chronic pelvic pain,
So chronic pelvic pain.
Speaker 15 (35:44):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
And so you begin to look at her case and
you figured.
Speaker 15 (35:47):
Out I went through all of the normal, all of
the normal.
Speaker 16 (35:51):
Questioning and what's going on, and then we finally get
to the point of when when.
Speaker 15 (35:57):
Is this happening.
Speaker 16 (35:58):
Well, it's happening as soon as she awakens in the morning,
and it lasts for a couple of hours and then
it goes away. And actually what was happening was a
normal physiological process that happens to men in the mornings
in the case of morning erections. And what was so
appalling to me about this is I had to explain
(36:21):
this is what's happening to the patient. This was an
adult patient, and this information was not given to the patient.
It was not explained that these sorts of things would
start happening. Your body would start producing sensations and things
as men would experience. They understand, you know, they think
(36:43):
of the facial hair and the voice of deepening. That's
the most common that they expect. But the patient was
not expecting this sort of thing painful and it was
painful to the patient until the patient understood was going on.
Once once that happened, you know, and we understand, we
(37:07):
discussed that this is what it's.
Speaker 15 (37:09):
Supposed to happen to a man.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
You know.
Speaker 16 (37:12):
The patient, you know, understood and had more information to
be able to process what was happening, new things that
were happening to the body. But this was an adult patient.
That's what's so appalling to me is.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Think about the children.
Speaker 15 (37:25):
The children like, how to explain you did?
Speaker 2 (37:28):
How young are they transitioning children that you hear.
Speaker 16 (37:30):
About, Oh, my good goodness, anywhere from five, six, seven
years old.
Speaker 15 (37:37):
All the child has to do is say, well, you know,
I I think.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I feel like a boy or I have no idea
the pain that they're about to end. Correct, Like, just
let's just forget about the surgery for a minute. Like that,
women having their breast cut off, or or men that
are transitioning to women having body parts cut off, the
horrm owns themselves. It's so contrary to the way God
(38:05):
created us. Absolutely, So what does it do I mean
long term for a man to take female hormones at
big doses and for women to take male hormones at
big doses long term, because yeah, you can never stop
correct that, but what does that do to the body?
(38:25):
I mean you as a surgeon understanding that, so.
Speaker 15 (38:30):
Things surgically.
Speaker 16 (38:33):
Speaking, non surgically, when you're exposed to the opposite sex hormones.
A man taking high doses of estrogen, they are at
risk for cardiac disease. They're at risk for osteoporosis. We've
seen increased dementia for females taking high doses of testosterone.
(38:56):
There's a reason why when we supplement testosterone for men
having low testosterone that we monitor our blood work because
that creates the potential for cardiac problems. So for females
exposed to high doses of testosterone, same sorts of things, stroke,
heart disease.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Blood cloths, not to mention mentally correct Like to me,
that is probably the most important component that we could
talk about because it's what's going on up here and
the deception involved with it.
Speaker 9 (39:27):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
That is so sad because now we're seeing scores of
young people that had the surgery nine, ten, eleven, and
they get into their teen years, early twenties and they
look at the doctor and say, why did you allow this?
And I want to go back, and you can't go back.
Speaker 16 (39:45):
You can restore, you can restore to a certain extent,
but you can never restore tissue once that healthy tissue
has been deconstructed and then refashioned, deconstructed again and refashion
what was supposed to have been there, but it will
(40:06):
never function normally with complications of things of such as
fistulas and horrendous scar tissue nerve damage. You will never
have a healthy, normal, fulfilling intimate relationship with your partner.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
And you can take care of the hormones and get
them off the bad hormones right now.
Speaker 16 (40:31):
Once once a child, especially a child, and that's the
one thing that I want to you know, really drive
home here. For children, this is irreversible. Wow, this big pharma.
They are creating patients for life, very savvy, they know
what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Why is it not reversible? And kids?
Speaker 16 (40:51):
Because once you start hormonal manipulation on little bodies that
are just starting to develop, they need.
Speaker 15 (40:58):
Their normal hormones.
Speaker 16 (40:59):
If a little girl needs their normal amount of estrogen
for the ovaries and for the uterus to develop. If
you are halting that process and then bombarding with high
doses of testosterone, you're causing atrophy of those ovaries which
will never regain function.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Wow, So they can never have children.
Speaker 16 (41:19):
They likely will not be able to they to biologically
have have their own children. In the same the reverse
for a male, the testicles will atrophy, they will stop
producing sperm. So a child simply cannot. There is no
identifiable way to hit home, you know, and drive home
(41:45):
to these children because they're not old enough, they don't
have the life experience, they don't have wisdom to know
what these decisions are that they're making and the ramifications.
Speaker 15 (41:56):
In their adult life.
Speaker 16 (41:57):
And that's was so alarming in appall to me with
my profession and how my profession has failed the population.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Have you received a lot of pushback for your like
bold stands, especially not popular in the north like where
so much of this is you know, very I mean promoted.
Speaker 16 (42:17):
Yeah, I am not popular among those your voice, I
mean you are championing these children and these teenagers, and
your voice.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
You want to speak out because you genuinely want to
see people healed, and you don't want to see that
the correct destruction that you've seen as a result of this,
I think is really important.
Speaker 13 (42:42):
I'm interested to know since you said they don't give
the side effects of what the surgeries do. Do the
parents are they informed of the side effects, the long
term sete effects for these kids?
Speaker 16 (42:53):
Everything is glossed over, you know. I will tell you generally,
the parents are so far gone and they are so
entrenched in thinking that they're doing the proper thing for
their children.
Speaker 15 (43:06):
Whether that is.
Speaker 16 (43:07):
The influence of the school system or whether that's the
influence of a therapist. Parents are generally so entrenched that
they they don't understand. They just think that they are
doing what's best for their children.
Speaker 13 (43:21):
My brother's a surgeon, and I know you have to give,
just like you said, you have to give. This is
what could happen, and I'm shocked that they're just not
given it.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
It's just crazy.
Speaker 14 (43:31):
Yeah, So how many stories are you hearing where people
go and they have the surgery and then they come
back and they're having complications and now they're looking at
a lifelong of treatments of trying to deal with complications
from having this surgery and what their life looks like.
Speaker 16 (43:47):
Now, there are a large number, And in fact, there's
a law firm actually locally here in Dallas, Campbell Miller
in Pain and they are a group of God fearing
men basically left their corporate jobs because they felt led
by the Holy Spirit, and this is all that they do.
They are covered up in litigation. In fact, I have
(44:12):
spoken with them extensively to potentially be an expert witness
for them because surgeons aren't speaking out. They are covered
up in litigation for d transitioners.
Speaker 15 (44:23):
That's all they do.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
So kids are rising up and zaying, why don't you
tell me correct that this would change my life forever?
Speaker 15 (44:32):
Correct?
Speaker 5 (44:33):
Why is it so rare that surgeons won't take a
stand against this kind of surgery?
Speaker 15 (44:39):
Follow the money? And I say that wholeheartedly.
Speaker 16 (44:43):
I was a private practice doctor, so I was not salaried. Basically,
when you're a private practice surgeon, the more work you do,
the more you get paid. Of course, and a lot
of these doctors, I fully believe it is. It is
just corporate greed, and it is just the almighty dollar.
(45:04):
I mean, you know, the love of money is the
root of all evil. And these surgeries are incredibly lucrative.
When a patient starts down this road, they are a
patient for life. In fact, less does it cost I mean,
dred one hundred and twenty million dollars.
Speaker 15 (45:23):
I have my references right here. You know that.
Speaker 16 (45:30):
Between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty three, it was one
hundred and twenty million dollar industry to transition children. And
that was just that was just up until two years ago.
Now the explosion that we've seen, heaven only knows what
we're going to see, but it is a multimillion dollar industry.
(45:50):
As I said, the surgeries are incredibly lucrative. In fact,
the director of the department at Vanderbilt University was caught
on camera talking about how much money the transgender program
at Vanderbilt University was garnering from these surgeries.
Speaker 9 (46:06):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Well, well, I think we have a video of Chloe Cole,
who actually went through the transition process and now is
coming out saying it was the biggest mistake of her life.
Let's listen to what she has to say.
Speaker 17 (46:18):
My name is Chloe Cole and I am a dye Trenschner.
At the age of twelve, I began to experience what
my medical team would later diagnose as gender dysph You,
the gender specialist I was taken to taken to see,
told my parents that I need to be put on
puberty blocking drugs right away. They asked my parents a
simple question, would you rather have a dead daughter or
a living transgender son. I was fast tracked onto puberty
(46:41):
blockers and then distosterone. The resulting menopausal like hot flashes
made focusing on school impossible. I still get joint pains
and weird pops in my back, but they are far
worse when I was on the blockers. I had a
doublem mostectomy at fifteen, after my breasts were taken away
from me the tissue was incinerated. The drugs and surgeries
changed my body, but they did not and could not
(47:03):
change the basic reality that I am and forever will be,
a female. However, sixteen after my surgery, I did become suicidal.
I'm doing better now, but my parents almost got the
dead daughter promised to them by my doctors. My childhood
was ruined, along with thousands of detranitioners that I know
through our networks. This needs to stop. You alone can
(47:25):
stop it. Enough children have already been victimized by this
barbaric pseudoscience. Please let me be your final warning.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Thank you. I mean this is barbaric. I mean, I
can't even believe we're talking about this. It just makes
no sense when how many Chloees are there out there
like that that, I mean that have parents and doctors
have made the decision twelve years old. What do you
know when you're twelve years old and you're talking about adults.
They don't even have the correct information. How much is
(47:55):
spent on a person who transitions to surgeries and the
continued care? Are you saying per person? How much per person? About?
How much?
Speaker 16 (48:05):
It's generally about two hundred, two hundred and fifty thousand
dollars a year per per person?
Speaker 9 (48:11):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Wow? And then the continued care and that's.
Speaker 16 (48:15):
Just pharmacotherapy and follow ups. You add in surgeries if
they've had surgeries, if there are complications of those surgeries,
or if something happens later on.
Speaker 15 (48:28):
That you need to go back and revise.
Speaker 14 (48:31):
But it's not just the sexual pain that they experienced.
I mean she was talking about her joints, correct her
back popping from the.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
T I'm sorry.
Speaker 14 (48:39):
I get emotional because God created your body and it's
such a wonderful way to function the way you designed it.
And so when you take it out of that and
try to make it something that's not supposed to be,
the body is retaliating correct against itself. So what are
some of the other symptoms or the other type of
pain that people will experience from having this kind of surgery.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Yep.
Speaker 16 (48:59):
So the joint pain is very common, the chronic pelvic
pain that we that we talked about, the pain after
undergoing those surgeries, especially little kids, when little when when
when a baby's body and I say a baby because
they're just their babies to me, when their body is developing.
(49:22):
You can't take you can't take a developing body and
influence it the other way and not expect, not.
Speaker 15 (49:31):
Expect bad things to happen.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, Well, they be on hormones for the rest of
their life.
Speaker 5 (49:36):
Well, then, prescription wise, pharmaceuticals are making a fortune.
Speaker 15 (49:40):
That's correct.
Speaker 16 (49:41):
That's why I said they are. The pharmaceutical industry is very,
very savvy.
Speaker 4 (49:45):
What made you so passionate to join this way, especially
when there's so much that you could lose.
Speaker 16 (49:52):
Well, I didn't get the opportunity to be a mother myself,
and growing up in church, I was always involved in
the youth programs, and my daddy, who passed away in
two thousand and eight, didn't get the opportunity to be
a grandfather, and he just loved children and he would
always tell me, you got to take care of the
(50:14):
little fellers, and that's he always told me. You know
that children are our legacy. And God put me in
this position. I wasn't going to be a surgeon. I
was going into internal medicine. I did not want to
be a surgeon, Lord knows, I didn't want to be
a public reconstructive surgeon. But all of the doors just
(50:37):
kept opening and I was forced to make decisions in
my medical training career. I was forced to make decisions
very quickly. And when I was approached about doing a
public reconstructive fellowship, my husband, who I was dating at
the time, who has put up with more, God love him,
has put up with more headaches with my career than he.
(51:01):
But he said, you know what, if there's ever going
to be a doubt in your mind and you're ever
going to wonder what might have been, I want you
to do this fellowship, even though it meant two more
years apart in a long distance relationship.
Speaker 15 (51:12):
So I went ahead and did the fellowship.
Speaker 16 (51:14):
Well, now I understand why I was meant to be here.
Speaker 15 (51:19):
It was to take care of the little fellers. Yeah,
and it was.
Speaker 16 (51:23):
Because I'm not going to have a biological legacy. I
want to be known as the mother of America's children.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
That's so good. That's so good. So gender dysphoria, that's
a condition. Psychologically, it doesn't mean that you should go
and have a transitioning, life changing surgery, especially for children, teenagers,
preteens who aren't old enough to make a decision. Now
(51:51):
that so many are now coming forward and saying it
was a mistake, I mean, all you have to do
is just go to Instagram or YouTube and here's some
of these stories. Yeah, here's some of these individuals say
that they just named mental health right to help them
process what would you say to a parent this watching
that has a child that's saying this, and everyone is
saying they need to do this, what would you say
(52:12):
to them?
Speaker 15 (52:12):
I would I would quote them.
Speaker 16 (52:14):
The study from twenty eighteen say that shows that most children,
upwards of eighty percent of children desist naturally with puberty.
So what these children and what your children are experiencing
is nothing new. We've been experiencing this since the beginning
(52:37):
of time.
Speaker 15 (52:37):
All of us have.
Speaker 16 (52:38):
We've all had to go through the horrors of adolescence
and trying to figure out our bodies and everything's confusing.
Take them to church because I am convinced we don't
have a gender dysphoria problem. We've got a people don't
know Jesus problem.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yes, that's right, that's so good. That's so good. It's wild.
Speaker 4 (52:57):
There's a lot of people that are watching that I
feel like are going to be inspired by your goold stance.
Moms and dads and grandparents. Is there something that they
can do to join this fight and to help.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
Maybe change this?
Speaker 4 (53:09):
Uh, you know, legislation or you know what what are
what can people do?
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Yeah? In aformation like to have real information?
Speaker 16 (53:15):
Yes, absolutely so there are Uh, there are a number
of resources UH. Conservative Counselors dot com, Association for Mental
Health Professionals dot org.
Speaker 15 (53:27):
These are for.
Speaker 16 (53:28):
Mental health resources, do No Harmmedicine dot org for resources
and how to combat these sorts of things.
Speaker 15 (53:36):
Doctor Miriam Grossman.
Speaker 16 (53:37):
Has a wonderful book out called Lost in TransNation that
is a wonderful resource for parents to understand, uh, the
background of this and and how to speak with their children.
There is also a book out by Pamela jeger Garfield.
Speaker 15 (53:53):
I believe I got that right.
Speaker 16 (53:56):
She is a licensed social worker that actually was working
out in the field and wrote this book and how
to deal with school boards and your social social circumstances.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Right, because you have some schools that are leaving the parents.
The parents, yeah, they know. Yeah, So thank you for
being here today, thank you for the opportunity, and thank
you for sharing. And you know, I think at the
end of the day, what all of us would say
here at the table is that regardless of what the
public arena is saying, that we have to do what
we feel is pleasing in the side of the Lord
(54:28):
and what lines up with the word of God. And
we know that He created male and female and so
it's important to keep that stand and it bypasses any
other political opinion that's out there, even though it may
not be popular. We're going to try to do the
right thing and continue to do the right thing. I
know you are too. We are out of time. I
(54:49):
want you to remember that no one is beyond saving,
no matter what you may have done in the past,
even those that are watching right now that you may
have transitioned. I just want to tell you there's always hope.
I've interviewed wald Hire, you know who transitioned like in
the eighties from a male to a female back to
(55:11):
a male and is doing great, got married and now
God's using him to help in this area. And he
can do that for you. So don't think that your
life is over, that God can't use you, or he
can't bring peace in your situation, because he can. Jesus
(55:32):
is always ready and waiting to redeem all of us today,
and all we have to do is just call in
his name and say Jesus, and he'll show up just
like that, and he'll meet you right where you are.
So if you don't know him today, that is the
most important thing we can share with you. Just do
that and allow him to come in and do something
(55:53):
that only he can do in your life. Well, I
want to thank doctor Melanie Crite's backward for joining us today.
For more information on the documentary What Is a Doctor,
you can visit aflds dot org and that's America's frontline
Frontline Doctors. As always, make sure to follow us on
all social media. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for full episodes,
(56:14):
exclusive content. Let us know how table Talk is touching
your life. We love hearing from you, and of course
you can also listen to the Joni Table Talk podcasts
avable and now on all major platforms. I know this
has been a serious this a heavy topic, but I'm
just telling you these are topics that the church needs
to address and we need to talk about what's going on,
what's happening, and how we are damaging our young people,
(56:37):
our children, and we need to be a clear and
concise voice to speak truth. So thank you for listening,
thank you for watching, and I hope you'll take this
information and share it with others and that you never
know the Lord may use you to help someone to
bring truth and clarity in a situation. We'll see you
next time. By by for today,
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