Piketon

The Piketon Massacre is a real crime that occured in Ohio in 2016 but has the feel of a fictional mash-up of Ozark, The Sopranos and Twin Peaks. In this episode Leah and Demetri dig deep into the incredible story with the help of the hosts of "The Piketon Massacre" podcast Stephanie Lydecker and Courtney Armstrong. 

And emotions run high as Leah and Demetri discuss the horrific shooting that took place in Uvalde, Texas.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Crime. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Real Time Crime.
I'm your host, Leo Lamar. My little social salutes we've
got with us today. Our friend. The fact that I

(00:22):
said friend and he's already laughing, I take it back.
I'm laughing because you called him your little social sluths.
Social it was. It was a very cruel and deville.
Thank you. That's that is my dream role to play, Corrella.
I think I've already got in the bag. But anyway,
you know, guys, it's just a hundred one single men. Oh,

(00:47):
we just live action this thing. This is actually the
most accurate thing that I've ever heard. So um a
little update. Still in Europe. I'm a can. I'm in
Can right now. I am I ever coming home Can.
By the way, just see you guys know that is
a that is a city that she doesn't mean she's
in the can, like coming to you from the bathroom.
Would that be funny? Hey guys, so I'm actually in jail.

(01:07):
If you could come and if everyone could just put
together like a little go fund me to get me
out the bail? Is that pretty high? What did I do?
It's a long story, but mostly just a drunk tank okay, no,
I'm so I'm in can France's great. I'm here for
the film festival anyway, Um, Dmitri you you just Dmitri
heavy side without heavy sighing. It's it's a it's a

(01:29):
dark time here right now. And you know what, I'm
glad that you're not here to you know, not that
you're not feeling it over there. But after everything what happened,
and we'll started in Buffalo, you know, last week, but
in Texas at the elementary school, it's it's a it's
a difficult time to um, to be here and to
be jovial and too and to try and to try

(01:51):
and go on, especially as a parent, it's a difficult
time to deal with this stuff. And and it's also
and immediately what we do best here in this kind
as we politicize everything where people do and all of
a sudden it's this and it's that, and people come
on and they have their statements and and it's it's
maddening because you want people for a moment, you know,
not not glory. I'm so definitely not glorifying these times.

(02:13):
But after eleven there was a little bit of a
bond here when the pandemic. It's a little bit of
a bond here, The bond of people coming together seems
to it's it's growing shorter and shorter, so there's not
even that recovery period where we all feel like we're
morning together, and that makes it more difficult. I am
so deeply disturbed by everything. All the notifications I've gotten

(02:37):
have been about gun violence, and it's so deeply upsetting,
and I just think that our country is changing in
a way that feels I mean, I've said this before,
I'll say it again. You know, l A is pretty
much as liberal as you can get besides New York
in America. And there used to be signs on the
highway that would say gun control now or band guns,

(03:00):
and now it's like story or gun safely, and that's troubling.
That just really shows you the sign of the times.
So anyway, obviously what we will be speaking about right now,
we'll just do one hot topic today, which is the
Texas school shooting, and then we're gonna chat with Courtney
Armstrong and Stephanie Lydecker, who are incredible hosts of the

(03:23):
Pike Town massacre, and Dmitri not to um you know
as much as I love talking about my love life.
I think we can just hop right to this today
unless you unless you feel it's necessary to get an update.
Um yeah, I'm always up for an update, but it

(03:44):
maybe it seems a little uh appropriate today. Yeah, we'll
save it for the next time. Just stay with this
guy until next time, so we can still talk about
it before we get it. Obviously, we're gonna do the
one hot topic about Texas, the elementary school, and it
is clearly, as I'm sure you know, a very sent
st of topics. So we're letting you know that we
will be talking about it, and just to prepare you

(04:04):
that you know, it's it's never a comfortable thing to
talk about, but that's that's where we're headed right now.
Thank you, Dmitri. So everyone has heard about this story,
and if you haven't yet, just turn on your TV.
This is happening right now. But okay, UM, this is

(04:25):
a really tragic story, you guys. This is the Texas
school shooting that's all happening in real time. Multiple people
are dead, including several children, after an active shooter incident
at rob Elementary School in Uvaldi, Texas. Law enforcement sources
has confirmed all of this and obviously we've seen it
all over the news, and I think there are nineteen

(04:48):
children dead now unless there was a new update, I
don't know if anyone has that information to me treat
as far as I knew, Yeah, that's the last I
had heard. This is a second deadliest school shooting in
American history, and two patients were transferred to Seeing Antonio
for treatment, while third was pending transfer the hospital set

(05:11):
a forty five year old who was also hospitalized after
getting grazed by a bullet um. We don't know the
status on their life at the moment. And I just
apparently this young man also shot his grandmother before going

(05:32):
to the elementary school and shot these children and teachers.
My heart is broken. I mean, it's like, how many
times does need to happen for anything to change? It's
already times. I'm I'm baffled. I just don't get it.

(05:55):
I mean, it's like, even if even if they armed teachers,
right the whole life good guy with a gun versus
the bad guy with the gun thing, It's like, then
you have to train teachers and guns. Then it's like
what happens if the student gets access to the guns somehow?
And how about it's like, having more guns doesn't ever
feel like the answer. It doesn't. And then that's a
responsibility to put on the teachers that that that's not

(06:17):
what their job is. And by the way, that should
not be an excuse. That should not be like, well,
we can't do that because these same lawmakers that are
like you know that are saying, oh, we should arm teachers.
They're the ones that if you look at their bios
on social media, right, they're the ones that are posting, oh,
you know, no one's taken our second amendum went away
from us. No one's gonna take our guns. Hey, ammunition

(06:38):
and guns are selling out faster than like they're bragging
about it, So don't tell me that it's not a
great I know what they say. They say that the
people that have these guns that they're not but you're
glorifying it, right, and you're making a big deal out
of it. So then that's to eighteen year olds now
that have gotten weapons that they shouldn't have had because
they don't have to pass any kind of checks, or

(06:58):
they get im illegally or whatever. It is. The point
is you have to make it harder. Okay, it's not
just armed teachers. No, make it harder. First. And here's
the other thing. So, just to update, it's nineteen children
and two adults. That's twenty one people. My other thought is,
so the shooter is dead mhm, and the police shot him.

(07:22):
I'm always I'm just like, what is the motive? What?
What's what's going on? How is this happening? And also
it's like, oh, so are we supposed to just amp up?
Are we supposed to have a professional level of security
and metal detectors and and and like defencive gates around

(07:43):
elementary schools and middle schools and high schools and movie
theaters and malls and like, at what point is this?
It's like, how do we prevent these sorts of issues?
How do we prevent gun violence? I mean, it's like
how much security is secure enough? I don't get it. Yeah,

(08:05):
during the pandemic, you know, h everyone kind of got
into the thing of good kids back in schools. You know,
their mental health isn't that well? You know what, there's
something about mental health about going to school and not
no no, if you're coming home or if someone's gonna
walk in and excuse me and and and shoot you
and your classmates. I'm struggling with the story. Obviously as

(08:26):
a parent I have this is difficult for me. Um.
But you know it's like I saw someone I can't
let this go. I saw someone on the news yesterday
and they you know, everyone comes up with their little
spin of their other topics, and someone was like, you know,
this is also this is about you know, kids being
afraid to to um to. What's the I forget what

(08:49):
the word was, but he's basically like tattle. You know kids,
you know, if you see something you have to say something. Hey,
hey dude, go for yourself. It's like, no, that's that's
not where you're gonna where you're gonna direct this blame
right now? Okay, because number one, this was an eighteen
year old kid and these were elementary school students, so
what ten, eleven and younger? Right, So it's not like

(09:10):
this was a classmate that brought up knife to school
and no one said anything. So get your little propaganda
bullshit off the news right now. Okay, there's certain things
that we have to focus on, and you blaming children
who are some of them no longer with us is
not the angle that anybody needs. And there's there's no
one that should be given a guy like that a microphone.
The children should never be blamed. No, this is us,

(09:33):
this is adults, This is adults. This is I mean,
I'm I'm kind of speechless. And I know you're a
parent so that this is hitting you in a way
that I can't even imagine, But I I just I
just don't understand. This is just illogical to me. How

(09:54):
we don't have any sort of banning of guns, gun
control in a me in full way, And why is
it taking so long? It just doesn't make it's nonsensical.
And I think that is the end of the story.
You know, I am how many more times, how many
more times? I just don't like. This is the definition

(10:15):
of an insanity. I brought one, it is, and and
people normalizing it or being like, well, just armed teachers,
that's the only way to go. It's not the only
way to go. And I have brought one of my
kids this morning to uh she had an overnight today,
which is you know, is for me as a parent,

(10:36):
it's a difficult time to grasp that. But obviously you
have to do what you have to do. But as
she's getting ready to get on the bus. She was
a little nervous in general, and not because we had
talked about this, but she was a nervous. She's like, Dad,
let's take a selfie. And in my head, I'm like,
like does she know? Or two? I have all this
swirling around my head right now, and I'm like, so
you get that moment where like, let's take a selfie
and then you can't but help it nowadays and I'm like,

(11:00):
you know, like you look at this stuff. And there
were parents in Texas that maybe took a selfie before
school or maybe said I love you, or maybe said
see you later or whatever, and that was the last
time they got to do that with their children. And
that is not something that I think about stuff like
that anyway. Like that's just the way that I'm wired.
I think about. I value life, right, I had some
some instances where I lost some family members when I

(11:21):
was young, and so I value my everyday life. But
that shouldn't be a normal thing for people to think about.
I'm going to the store. I'm going to think, yes,
always tell somebody that you love them, but it should
not be is this the last time I'm gonna see somebody?
Because I'm going to the store or because they're going
to in school. Sorry, no, I think this is all

(11:43):
exactly how everyone is feeling, and you're just vocalizing it.
And um, I'm I I really feel at a loss
of words for this story. And I'm grateful that you
have such a strong perspective on it, and I'm also
sorry that you have to have such a strong perspective
on it. I mean, this is completely I can't imagine

(12:05):
having children at that school. And and the other thing
is that the children who live will never be the
same either. So all the survivors are going to have
survivors guilt, and they're going to be afraid of being
indoors and buildings that they would normally deem safe. And
you know that's this is a tragedy that doesn't just

(12:25):
end here. Yeah, And it's like and sadly you can
rattle off the other people the other where those other
students and people are from Columbine, Newtown, Parkland, Like, there's
so many schools that you can rattle off in your head,
and it's like, I don't know what to do anymore.
I mean, I think this is a little bit of

(12:47):
a touchy hot topic for both of us. And we're
gonna just quickly cut to break and have a breather,
and I suggest you all have a sip water, take
a break, come back to podcast, and we've got some
great guests coming up. We love you very much and
our heart goes out to everyone who's affected in this tragedy.

(13:09):
We'll be right back. Yeah, oh my gosh, it's great
to have you both. Thank you so much for being
here with us time today. Thank you. We are big,

(13:30):
huge fans Dark Day though I guess to be here
just based on what's happening in the world today. Yeah,
too much real time crime. I think the unfortunate thing
about our podcast is that every time we think we're
just gonna do some you know, old cases and maybe
a couple of of of hilarious, funny little crimes here

(13:51):
and there, it's always like, oh no, wait, another huge
tragedy just happened, which is also the point of this podcast.
Exactly no, exactly know. We talked at that a lot,
not to jump in about you know, talking about crimes,
is that perpetuate crimes or you know, what is the
cross section? And personally, I think it's really important to
talk about it. So what you guys, do I think

(14:13):
is incredibly valuable not to get heady. Thank you, thank you.
I think, you know, I used to think that. I
used to think, you know, the more we publicize stuff,
but then I thought, you know what, I think people
need to talk about stuff otherwise you just keep it
all inside. And I don't think that talking about the
crimes is what you know, causes people to commit them.
I think I think when you give someone that committed

(14:34):
a crime a reality show or something like that, then yes,
maybe we're crossing the line there. But I think he's
talking about the tender Swinler again. I am. That's still irritating.
I just took people's money and everybody, and then everybody's like,
hold on, let's give this guy a show. It's made
off have a show yet. I think you'd have a
great reality show up next. It's anyway, I won't, I

(14:59):
won't hijack, but you know, no, no, please hijack away.
That's the whole point of this thing is hijack. Yeah, literally,
that's actually the alternate name for this podcast. Well, it's
real time hijack. As you hijack please please, Stephanie. The
well we're gonna do is we're gonna keep interrupting you,
so we're gonna make the hijack difficult for you. No
one just sits there and I agrees to be hijacks.

(15:19):
Go ahead. Now that's part of the game, as we
all continually hijack each other. So I'm sorry, but this
is not going to be fun for anyone. We get it, No,
we really get it. But like to back up to
what you were just saying about talking about crimes, I
think it's the only way we know how to keep
ourselves safe is sort of knowing that these hideous things
do in facts happen, and how we can, you know,

(15:40):
spot the boogeyman in the room and hopefully prevent these
things from happening again. So that's it from my soapbox. Yeah, no,
I agree, I think um even on social media. I'm
in life, I'm sarcasm, but um, Somewhere along the way
I used to keep all stuff inside, and somewhere along
the way I realized, you know what, if I have
a thought kind of like, I'll write it out. And

(16:01):
because I realized that sometimes other people need to hear
it or need to or think, hey, I didn't think
of it that where or it's nice to know that
someone else is having these feelings too, or so I
think it's important. Well, it's also nice to have an
alternative perspective on an event that you might not have
heard before and gather more insight and to change your
own perspective. Maybe not to mention. If you meet somebody

(16:24):
who has been the victim of a crime or has
survived something as hideous as some of the crimes that
we talk about, and they have the wherewithal and the
ability to come and sit down for an interview and
push on with their lives and share their story. I
find it very inspiring. It really puts things into perspective

(16:44):
in terms of what I was whining about yesterday. You know,
you wake up to what we've seen today, this level
of tragedy, and it's mind blowing, and it just kind
of reminds us all to you know, get grateful and
you know, be aware. We've got the incredible, beautiful, talented
Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Lye Decker on the podcast today.

(17:05):
We are so grateful to have you both here, and
they're the hosts of the Pike Town Massacre podcast and
it's available on all Apple podcasts. They're already far into
their episodes. So if you're someone who likes to binge,
o ho, I have a treat for you. Plan a
road trip baby. So you both are unscripted TV producers

(17:28):
and now you host this podcast about the terrifying Pike
Town massacre along with co host Jeff Shane, who's not here.
That's fine, We want to ask questions. But did you
kill him? It sounds like sometimes sometimes Jeff is a
good nickname for him. Ha ha. So the show tells
the story of the horrific family annihilation. On the night

(17:50):
of a and rural pike Town, Ohio, eight members of
the road and family were all shot to death. Season
two of the Pike Town Massacre just began and it
starts with a band all puns intended. One of the
four suspects in the massacre, who has been pleading his
innocence for years, changed his mind and entered a guilty plea.

(18:10):
That would be like Amber heard turning around in court
right now and just being like, you know what I did?
Ship the bed the dog? She done that? Yes, she has?
Is that there we go? Depends who you ask. Yeah, well,
if we asked Johnny. So two years later in their neighbors,
the Wagoners were arrested and charged with committing the largest

(18:33):
massacre in Ohio's history. Shocked by the arrest, the ones
close knit and religious community remains divided and unable to cope. Ladies,
Before we go more into the nitty gritty, is there
anything you want to share about the pod or your
experience or if you want to just um talk about
Jeff since he's not here. Um, Jeff, you this in spirit,

(19:00):
and we wish you were in person as well, um,
because as Stephanie said, he has a real I know
you said in person, but it sounded like you said,
I wish he was in prison as well. Uh. Sometimes
one courtney, Um, but yeah, I'll say what what brought

(19:21):
part of what brought us to to this story and
staying on the story for so long is actually going
and visiting Piked in which Stephanie, Jeff and I all
went to Piked in Ohio, UM several times and we
got to knock on doors and speak to people who
were integral to all sides and and just to find

(19:44):
out kind of in wasn't in real time exactly when
the tragedy happened, but it was in tragedy, lingers and
the effects. You know, they lad there forever, um, and
so I think that's part of what's kept us is
really the people who were involved. I just wanted to

(20:09):
set up so the for those of you that don't know,
there were a family of eight, right, were massacred execution
style in this town, in different homes, all on the
same day, all on the same day. And initially reports
said that it was in fact execution style, and they
thought it was this assassin who came in in the
night and went to four different locations. And we now

(20:32):
know that it was far from an execution. It was
a straight massacre. It was an overkill. Four members of
the same you know, eight members of the same family,
ranging in age as young as sixteen years old. We're
all murdered. Some of them were mothers holding their babies.
And to find out two years later, the babies, thankfully
we're all left alive at the scene. Um tragic as

(20:55):
even that sounds for the life to come. But find
out two years later that a local, very prominent family
who was very close to the victims were in fact
the killers. And um, now we know that as fact,
as one of them has pled and you're talking about
a mother, a father, and two sons, and the four

(21:16):
of them we now know, as a matter of fact,
plotted and planned for months and months to essentially eradicate
an entire bloodline and did so pretty successfully and almost
got away with it. And you know, the town is
a small town, like so many that we are all
from myself included, and imagine knowing either somebody on the

(21:39):
victim side or someone on the accuse side. It was
a small town that was rocked. It's considered the largest
crime investigation in Ohio's history. So you don't go anywhere there,
whether you're at the Walmart or at the you know,
the local little shop. Who is not affected they went
to high school with the accused, or they know into

(22:00):
a well one of the victims, so and and not
to mention. So this was in two thousand sixteen, right,
And then this family that you're referring to, which I
can't wrap my head around. You know some parents that
then commit murders with their kids like together, that's there's
obviously yes, no, I can't. But so then it was

(22:20):
two years right until they were arrested. So you're talking
about a close knit community and amongst this, that family
was just there for two years acting like, wow, I
can't believe this happened. So that's enough to re rattle you, right,
the whole communities rattled in two thousand sixteen. Then two
years later they found out that these people that they
were probably opening up to about this were the ones

(22:41):
that did it. And so then you shook again. Yeah,
and the the Wagner family, who again is now all
the four of them are in prison. Um, you know,
they took to social media and as Stephanie said, they
were connected to the Rodents, the victims family, and so
they were saying in interviews and on their own posts,

(23:02):
you know, we need to find the monsters who did this,
and we have such love for the Rodents, and it's
it's really um diabolical what they were doing, just the
you know, the level of fraud really they were perpetrating.
After the fact, not to mention just one other detail
that kind of stucks with us. You know. Season three

(23:24):
premieres today, and we have a lot of access to
the accused families who were under a gag order or
frankly were petrified and too scared to speak with us
for good reason, and this looks like a regular family, right,
So Angela Wagner, who is the accused mother. So there's
a mother, her husband, Billy Wagner, her eldest son, George Wagner,

(23:47):
and then a younger son, Jake Wagner. The mom, now
we know now was plotting it. She was on surveillance
at Walmart buying the equipment for silencers and the shoes
that were later found at the crime scene. They had
murder meetings, sitting around the kitchen table, meeting planning to

(24:08):
do this. And at the time they lived together. Can
you imagine this? So they got a car, they got
into a car allegedly, and then went from one house,
committed a massacre, got back in a car, went to
another house, committed a massacre four times, and then went
home burd and went about life. And that piece that

(24:29):
is just too much to kind of wrap your brain around,
because you'd like to think, no, I under saying like
this is why parents should never live with their adult children.
Good point. You know, it's like it drives people to
the point of insanity just having a murder. Yeah, and
they just decided to plot murders of other people. I mean,
this is just clearly mental illness, but also you know

(24:52):
the term murder meeting. I just imagine them sitting around
the dinner table being like, oh, honey, past the potatoes,
and who should we kill first. It's like that's out
of a comedy. It almost doesn't even seem real. They
seem like fake people. And the fact that when they
found the bodies, they weren't just shot multiple times, they
were also bruised, so you know that they were beaten
before they were shot. So it leads to so many

(25:15):
questions about the motive. And I think that you know,
they've said it it's about custody, battle and that sort
of thing, But what do you think it really is?
Do you think that's it? This is you have no
idea the question you just asked. By the way, you're like,
that's what the whole show was about. Yeah, yeah, I'm

(25:36):
gonna give the I'm gonna give a real short, black
and white answer, which is not the full scope um
allegedly because you know, this is all still coming out
in court. Um. It is custody over a little girl
who was shared between the youngest son on the killer side,

(25:56):
Jake Wagner and Hanname Rodin and and they were an
unmarried couple who had um by all accounts fairly happily
for years, split custody and they lived the three of
them as a little unit, part time at one family,
part time at the other. Uh, their romantic relationship ended.

(26:19):
And yeah, the thought that it was an absolute obsession
of getting custody of this little girl by the killer family, well,
guess what, you don't have custody ever anymore. So nobody
that's correct. Um So anyway, that that is one simple answer. However, Stephanie, listen,

(26:43):
Stephanie just took her heels off, exactly, she took her
hoops out. She's ready to go. We are like, listen,
this is at one point went from a who done
it to a wide done it right? So we were
really looking into the why how could there possibly be
a killer family who sticks to the same story for years?
Very difficult? And how could there be a killer mom

(27:04):
at the helm of this who's really setting her kids
out for potentially death? Also, they could have all been
killed in this massacre. So, you know, season three, that
becomes part of our initial obsession. But I think now
we're seeing that, you know, this is a really convenient narrative,
and you know, trials are now on the horizon, so

(27:24):
much of this will be disclosed. But it seems as
though custody, in my humble opinion, allegedly is the touch
point that makes us all categorize it and put it
in a nice safe box and say, okay, must have
been over custody. That's that. And now we're seeing that
there there may have been a much larger plot and play. Um.
There's been talking about the cartel, and there's been talking

(27:45):
about more nefarious things happening in the in the greater
pipes in area. UM, and we have access of really
some scary information, you know, on our podcast. We have
to put everything through really a very serious legal lens
because the trials are upcoming and some of the participants
are really participating in a way that they haven't before. UM,

(28:05):
So we can't say anything that hasn't been appropriately vetted.
But it's pretty the custody thing we now know to
be where I believe to be a very small piece
of a very scary puzzle. Well I know, I mean
that would make sense because like I said, all right,
well you didn't you thought all this through, that you
planned you aplotted out this whole thing, but you didn't
think that this is for custody. And now nobody has

(28:29):
the kid, right, so so there has to be more
to it. But the the the psychosis to have family
planning things, to go shopping at Walmart for your murder weapons,
and it's insane. And by the way, if you see
the picture of Angela Wagner, this mom, she just looks
like a regular person. She looks like anybody we all

(28:49):
could have grown up next to, you know. Isn't know
what they always say. They always seems so nice. I mean,
the prominent family and then and then you people, you
don't have to be worried about. That's why they've got
nothing to lose, you know. But they're just they're already
putting it out there. It's the regular people, you know
that we're worried about their secrets. Well, so I'm sorry, Dmitri,

(29:11):
No I hijacked you. No, no, no, no no, it's so.
But then to go like the way you painted this out, Stephanie,
is then they went and committed a murder, then went
to the next house. Never once along that way did
they have any remorse, like you would think at some
point when someone goes and they kill someone, they go whay, wow, okay.
But to do it four times and never shift. How

(29:32):
does nobody actually have some moment of clarity midway that
they're just saying, no, let's not do this, Oh my god,
please no. Now we are hearing um and learning pieces
of that night that does shape even what we're speaking
about now. I'm in a pretty profound way, um, in
a jaw dropping weight. We're on season three right now.
We also did a documentary about the murders prior to this,

(29:56):
so it seems impossible that you could speak about one
story for that long. And just when we think we're like, okay,
that's a wrap, the whole thing gets all turned around
and we're more confused, probably this season than ever before
because as trials now happen. And by the way, this
Insullary family that was so close knit and they all
lived together and they can get murdered together in that

(30:17):
crazy killer mom well, now they're eating each other little
by little and you know, turning on each other for
the first time in the tory tales that we're hearing
about them leading up to this murder spree, essentially in
the days leaving after and also you know they're getting
allegedly threats behind bars and are maybe potentially allegedly I

(30:39):
don't know how many times to say that, Um, you know,
maybe this is a convenient story to keep them alive
behind bars because there's a bigger plot and play. But
no matter how you slice it, you know, three young
mothers were murdered holding their babies. I mean, what kind
of a sick o? What can put that plan in place?
To me? In my had When you say it like that,

(31:02):
it makes me think because didn't they change their story
and come forward two years later and decide that now
they're going to change their plead to being guilty. And
I'm like, maybe you're right, there is or a bigger
plot at play because maybe they felt safer behind bars
than they did an ounce and even weirder at first
when they were arrested. That's when we got involved to

(31:22):
do the documentary. We went there immediately once arrests happened,
and we kind of set out to disprove that a
killer mom could exist or a killer family, which you
know there's not many of those, if any, Uh, it's impossible, right,
And they really did plead their innocence and they were
pretty convincing. You know. Honestly, I think when we started
this me of everybody was like, I kind of think
that they could not have done it. No way, it

(31:44):
has to be something larger. Um. And now to the
five year anniversary. Jake Wagner, the youngest son, he's the
one that pled and basically said, Okay, I did some
of this killing, and I am going to now testify
against my mother, my brother, and my father to get
their death sentences off the table, which is a pretty

(32:05):
big difference. UM. And now they're all jumping in to
either spare their lives, some of them really want to
get free, um. And they all their stories aren't really
matching up, and they have to, which is you know,
compelling in and of itself. There's going to be a
showdown in court where for the first time they're seeing

(32:25):
each other eye to eye, and you know, the fate
of all four of them really does lie in the
limbo is Jake the father of the child of the
custody correct, he allegedly found God in prison and by
the way, there's a whole religious element of this too,
which is fascinating. But apparently behind bars he discovered God

(32:45):
and was born again and is now you know, purging
his conscience. I think I can say this, but Court,
we were at something, we were at crime Time not
that long ago, and we were speaking about it, and
you know, the people who were there had really captivating
interesting questions that we're trying to sort of go through
on the podcast this season. And somebody had come up
to us and said, I have access to Jake Wagner

(33:07):
on a regular basis and he's writing this manifesto behind bars,
and it kind of gave me chills. I don't know
what that means. Is a manifesto imply that he has
more to say and he's going to or he's going
to leave this manifesto behind and take his life. I'm
not suggesting that's going to happen, but there's clearly more
happening behind closed doors, and those doors are about to open.

(33:32):
The family feels very Ozark to me. It is I think,
you know, like we like, well, at some point even
this season especially, I was like, this sounds like too
much like Ozark? Is is that possible? But we couldn't
imagine it being any weirder? And it is. Yeah, it's
at the and yes, it said it's very good visual

(33:58):
to revoke. Now, what was the what was the initial
thing that led I guess the tipping point that led
them to be suspects to begin with, right, because clearly
two years passed, whether they were suspects or not, something
tipped it where they're like, okay, now they were being accused.
Go go go, go get an hour. I mean it

(34:20):
was it was a multitude of things. I mean, they
the investigation was so broad and vast. I mean there
were many many national, federal and local agencies just scouring.
So it was in doing the you know, in doing
the interviews and talking to people. Listen, it's like if

(34:42):
any if any wife is dead, it's the husband. You
look at the significant other, right, And so I think
part of it just started from Okay, this is a
very close relationship, and then they start peeling the onion back.
And these families were connected on that wasn't their only connection.
That was business. They had generations of the family knew

(35:04):
each other. So it's unclear exactly if there's thus smoking
gun aside from evidence that came to be found. But
in the initial days, it was really just talking to
people and finding out and by the way, these Wagner's,
they bought a vehicle for the purpose of murder. We
know that now as a matter of fact, after the

(35:24):
murders happened, they were like, it's too painful to be
here any longer, and they went to Alaska. They basically
liquidated all of their things, dipped and went to Alaska
for two years, right in the like dead of night. Okay,
so but that doesn't make them guilty. Alright, fine, they're
there for two years. They come back to pike him
for reasons we still don't entirely know. Allegedly because the

(35:44):
eldest accused father, his father was dying and they came
back to care for him, and soon there after they
were arrested. And one other big quick note that I
think was also fascinating about this investigation and I promised
to stop talking, is after the after the murders, this

(36:08):
was again the largest crime investigation in Ohio's history. It's
a small town, so you know, everyone's doing their very best.
There was four different locations and they basically moved all
of these four homes, which were you know, very nice
trailer homes. You know that they were able to move
into a different location in this like trailers, No in

(36:29):
a hangar if you will to preserve evidence. And look,
we see this all the time. We were raised in
the House of Nancy Grace. Preserving a crime scene investigation
is top priority at all costs, right, not touching anything
if you're going to move four of these locations where
these murders happened, there's so much room for error in

(36:51):
that potentially, and we always believed that that would be
the cornerstone for the Wagner's defense. Good luck proving that
that wasn't tampered with or misplaced or or planted. Right,
you know that that seems like a narrative that everybody
could probably get on board with. We thought that we're
gonna be uh free to be honest. In fact, we've
always been there careful about what we say. We don't

(37:11):
want to Wagner coming for us. So you know, it
didn't seem as though they were going to spend their
lives in prison in my purview, and then Jake spoke up.
So it's that there's so many tentacles to it at
this point, but it is a really fascinating investigation also,
and how that is now unfolding and the Special prosecutor
who's about to go to trial is a really magnanimous

(37:36):
female prosecutor who's like not letting it go and is
a superstud And you know, we're really just bracing ourselves
for the information that we're we're all kind of dying
to know, I mean, getting contaminated evidence and tampering with evidence.
And I mean this is such a common theme. It

(37:56):
happened in the Amn and Knox case, it happened in
doomin a ram Z, and it happens so frequently. And
usually when things are tampered with, these are the biggest
cases because there are loose ties, so you find people
really pulling at strings to create storylines that make sense
because they either want to force a narrative or they

(38:16):
want to uh, you know, force justice whatever that looks like.
And I mean there are so many things that you
were saying that we're just like so thought provoking and
also terrifying, you know, when you're like, we don't want
to Wagner after hotly, Yeah do they so they know you,

(38:38):
but I mean they're behind bars. But there are other
Wagners out there well, and we know many of the Wagners,
to be honest, We've interviewed hundreds of people, whether remotely
or in person, collectively Courtney, Jeff and myself and Chris Graves,
who also works on this with us. We've entered so
many people on all sides, and many have choosen to
be either anonymous or have don't want super diticipate after

(39:00):
what they've told us. So I feel like and we
can't say anything unless it's you know, so right, because
it could potentially have influence. But it is one of
those things that on the Wagner side, the Acque side,
you know, they don't believe it either. You know, people
are heartbroken that their families, who they really believed in
and we're rallying for and trying to get out of prison,

(39:24):
are now saying, oops, I might not have been that
honest from the jump, and I'm so sorry to be
such a great liar. And how to four people become
such great liars together? And at the end of the day,
not to lose sight of these you know, beautiful road
and family. They were very beloved and lovable and they
were a fun, loving Gregarius family who had so much
ahead of them. Um, it's so easy for them to

(39:45):
get lost in the story and you know, we always
try not to belabor that, but um, it's one of
those stories that has really become a piece of our DNA,
and we think about it and talk about it to nauseam.
So thank you for living me. So no, I'm gonna so,
I'm gonna ask a question. It's a weird question. And
I tried to let it go in my head, but
I haven't been able to, so I just have to

(40:06):
get it out. You said that they bought a car
to commit the murders. What car did they buy for?
What's what's your murder vehicle? It's the truck. There's always
a truck, isn't that what Brian Laundry. Isn't that the
car that he Well the other thing too, is I
feel like running is obvious guilt, you know. I mean

(40:27):
that happened with Brian Laundry. He immediately dipped after he
murdered Gabby Petito. And then even when they went to Florida,
I think it was too much for the parents, so
they went on a trip camping there, like we just
got to get out of here. You know. It's it's
constant running from the truth and the pain. And I mean,

(40:48):
go to Alaska, I mean, that's as far as you
can get, you know. So their thought on it was that,
you know, there's there's speak to that at the time
was that we're leaving not as a dip to show guilt,
but rather there's still a three year old daughter at
the center of this who just lost her entire poor family.
And you know, the town had had some rumors about

(41:09):
the Wagner's potentially being involved somebody through a bottle or
something at Angela Wagner, and they thought, you know what,
for the sanctity of our beautiful three year old, we
want to be able to move on healthily with We're
gonna reevaluate and reimagine our lives in Alaska, far far
from the police. And by way, did they went to
church every day and seemingly kind of picked up and

(41:31):
moved on And maybe had they stayed there? So curious,
why would you possible? Why would they come back? Yes?
And by the way, Jake Wagner, the don't get restarted.
Jake Wagner, the youngest son whose daughter and the custody
was at the center of this. Allegedly, this guy goes
to Alaska with his family and meets another young girl

(41:53):
meets another young girl at church who he's basically set
up with through their pastor. And this young girls like
she he seemed lovely, can you imagine? And then a
nice handsome single day they got married. Yeah, they got married. Yes. Yes.
And now she's a big piece of this too. She's
on the witness list. We have recently heard that the

(42:13):
special prosecutor had to create a new Social Security number
for her because she had to be you know, gone
in the dead of night for her own safety. Um.
And you know, we've been really actively hoping to you know,
get access to her and hear her voice. But again,
she was married into a killer family. Um, you know,

(42:33):
talk about it. I have the worst gut in the
world when it comes to Truelo. So you know, can
you imagine this young yeah? You know so? Um yeah.
The plot pickins, you know where when we do go
through the Alaska piece of it in in lots of
detail this season. I mean it makes me think, like,
is Alaska that bad that it would force you to

(42:55):
come back and admit guilt to a crime. Many people
love Alaska, including Jewel you know, a Laska's a beautiful
place too many, Um, but it seems far away and
very remote and again forever going to church. One of
the oldest sons too. This has always haunted me, the
eldest son, George Wagner of the accused. He has requested
a Bible in solitary confinement in prison, solitary consignment to

(43:22):
get ready. I'm starting to think that everyone that goes
to church isn't always good and doesn't always have the
best intentions in mind. Where did you get that idea
from Dmitri? Piece a few things together from different things
all over the world. Interesting, Well, you know, did they
have children together? Did not know that? Behaving as like

(43:43):
a bit of a you know, new stepmother to uh
the three year old at the time, and you know
thought she married into this like lovely family, not realizing
once you get married into this family, it seems like
the the windows shut in, the doors shut, and you're
you're stuck in health captive. Really, Mama Waggoners going to

(44:04):
Walmart at Yeah? And they so just even before all this,
you know, you had mentioned how they lived together as
adults and then also with any women. I mean George Wagner,
the oldest one, he had a wife for a while,
then she too moved in and when they were splitting
custody with Hannah Rodin, so it was really complete control.

(44:26):
So not just mom dad, the two sons. Any woman
they were seriously involved in was then also brought in
and kept under surveiled. They were surveiled, they were tracked,
they were and this goes, this goes back years. It's
it's unbelievable. What what is hers? What do you think

(44:48):
her issue is the definite level of yeah, it's I
mean it's insane too, you know, to try and put
reason to something unreasonable as I we struggle with that.
So right, you know, what is it? I It's hard
to know, except there is definitely obsession um protection of

(45:10):
whether it's the bloodline or what Angela Wagner the mother
deems as hers, which would be her boys and anyone
who impacts them. So you met, you got you meet
one of the Wagner boys, who are lovely by many accounts,
we might add, we've heard many stories this season seasoningly
so they were shy and they were loved. They meet

(45:31):
a nice girl. That nice girl comes into the mix
um and then as immediately cut off from her family.
If there's a child involved, they get rid of the
mom and force custody to be given to Angela Wagner
at the killer mom, who's really the grandmother now of
like the said three year old, for example, And then
she starts making them call her mom, so they you know,

(45:53):
Angela Wagner kill her mom was in her son's girlfriends
social media. She was tracking all of them for months
and months and months. And the one the second the
eldest son's now ex wife who thankfully survived. Um, and
this did not happen. It's the youngest. I'm making this
very confusing. There's two times now that Angela Wagner killer

(46:17):
Mom has forced custody issues on both of her sons
loved ones in hopes of getting rid of the women
and keeping the kids for herself. So the mom, the
mom is the epicenter of all this, and you think
she's probably the one that just from the inside the house,
step the whole family and masterminded all this just to

(46:37):
keep her little empire. And she's the she's the center
of everybody. We thought that in episode one, and now
I think if you asked me today and we're really
we're still mid stream on season three. UM, I don't
think that's it anymore. Yeah. Yeah, damn your reality show producers.

(47:00):
Yeah wow, that's really good, you know, And now I'm
gonna go binge myself. I'm just I mean, because it
seems so clear and now it's so unclear. Wow. Thank
you so much. Thank you for that. Yeah, I mean
it's so interesting hearing about just obsession. Well, you know
the old adage, obsession breeds content, and you know, when
when someone is angry or furious or jealous or any

(47:25):
of those things, these like crimes of passion, whether they're
sexual involved or romantic or familial, becomes really intense. And
to have such an entanglement where the entire family is
essentially it's like a it's like a baby racket. I mean,
it is unfathomable. Really. Can you imagine being a girl

(47:48):
in the in the Alaskan church and she's like, oh,
I met this really nice guy and maybe maybe you
find out someone has something in the past, and then
you're like, okay, well it was murdering. You're like, oh,
what happens? So someone fell down hit their head and
he was kind of blamed for it. No, it's or
is that he and his whole family allegedly massacred of
an entire family, Like, holy crap, wait, do you think

(48:08):
the pastor feels really bad? He's like, oh no, I
have the worst judge of character. And I set up
a very nice Christian Alaskan woman with an entire family
of murderers. You know, like, there's something we got gotta
talk to that pastor. He's really the problem here. How's
this sermon? The next Sunday, He's like, I'd like to
come clean on something I kind of regret. Yeah. Yeah,

(48:28):
He's like, who do I confess my sentence too? Uh? Yeah,
I mean this is um And you know, we we
also make a podcast called Crazy and Lovely. You know,
really every episode kind of does look at that intersection
between when something starts really loving and seemingly normal on
its nose and then turns deadly. And unfortunately, those stories

(48:49):
are seemingly never ending, right and you know we're seeing
it in the news right now. Um, why why go
to see therapist, go talk to a family, a friend,
move something there? There's so many other answers than what
we talk about every day, which is murder. And I

(49:10):
don't know that we'll ever fully understand it, right, Courtney
and I debate this today. She's the cerebral, smart one
of us and is always saying, why do you ask why?
Why do you ask? Why you cannot make sense of
nonsensical people or situations? And I sort of have to
believe that somewhere we can. And you know, that's kind
of why I guess we're all on this right now,

(49:31):
and why crime is something that we're also obsessed with.
It's you know, we're on a justice journey, right and
we want to be able to categorize it in our heads.
And this is just another example of one that's really
been hard to do. It's that's that's the thing is
it's something that that we can't wrap our heads around.

(49:51):
So that's what intrigues you the most, right it scares
the shit out of you. And I think that's why
so many people are scared of death, because they don't
know the end. That's that's an answer that they don't know. Right.
But when these things happen and you think, okay, well
let's look into it, and then you want the why
because it's the only way to make you feel better.
Because if you don't have the why, then anybody around
you can be one of these people. Right, So then

(50:13):
you feel your world dissolves an extremely small and you
feel and anything can happen. And I think that's a
scary point. So we need that. Why we need well,
what was the one thing that really set this off?
Why did people not see they should have seen? So
you always want that reason. Yeah, and Stephanie and Courtney.
Unfortunately we are out of time for today. I feel

(50:34):
like we could talk to you for hours about this,
and trust me, we've got questions. Okay, we have questions,
um and and you really mind me when you were like,
oh no, it's not at all what you think it was.
So I'm gonna binge, watch binge, watch binge, listen the
pot to the pod. I have no brain cells laft

(50:54):
type and in Europe for a month, and I'm very
excited to listen to your podcast. And is there any
are there final thoughts you want to leave our listeners with?
Don't all jump in at once. I thought a hijacker,
I know, I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's because
you already hooked us with something. You're like, I know,

(51:14):
I got to come up with something that tops in
the last thing. You're like, we gave you not to
be hijackie, um court go for it. Um. I have
plenty to say. UM No. I mean I would say
if um, you know, for for anyone who listens to
UM piked In Massacre or Crazy and Love or right here.

(51:38):
I think one thing that I just put out there
is to keep in mind that real people are involved
in all of these. That's really good. Do genuinely go
out to the victims. And also, you know, one thing
about the piked In Massacre specifically is we do get
a lot of uh, we get a lot of information
from people who tip us off to a lot of

(51:59):
interesting stuff when we take it very seriously, and we
really do find interesting pieces of information because whether it's
a local or a distant family member or a psychic medium.
You'd be shocked how many listeners have reached out directly
with information. And it's really made us pivot many times

(52:20):
where you know, we thought we locked an episode and
then we get some mail from a listener and it
completely confuses us again and we go down that rabbit hole,
which ends up being accurate. So I would just say
anybody listening, please do reach out and find us. Um.
You know, we do read and we do take it

(52:40):
seriously and we um, we try to be mindful of
just staying out of the way of the story. And um, yeah,
our hearts go out to the Rodents and the Rodan family.
Thank you so much, Courtney and Stephanie. I mean absolutely,
our hearts go out to the Rodan family. This is
such a sad tragedy. I mean, this is one of

(53:00):
the most tragic stories I've heard in a really long time.
I wish actually that is true, but there are constantly
new tragedies every day in America and around the world
at this point. But thank you so much for your
work and for your beautiful hearts and souls. And you
guys go listen to the Piketown massacre. I mean, if

(53:20):
you're not, I am, and I need someone to talk
to about it. Yeah, everybody's there's three seasons. Check it out.
And then the trial starts for at least for for
George the fourth right that starts in August. So maybe
you guys can come back and when things get underway,
we can talk more about the about the trial and
or the verdict. And thank you so much for having
us in real time crime. Yeah, we're mega fans, so

(53:42):
keep the fight going and thank you for having us well, Dmitri.
I think that is the conclusion of this episode of

(54:06):
I mean just sad after sad after sad, So I'm
gonna go I mean just also just totally bonkers because
you know, there's going to be a Netflix movie about
this family, and I hate that I have to think
that way, but I'm like, no, it's obvious. It's like
this is too wild and out there and weird, and

(54:27):
I almost am so fascinated by these bigger stories where
there's always something larger at play. We're like, wow, where
did this start to unravel? You know, going from getting
away with murder to deciding that you want to plead guilty.
I gotta know everything. I gotta know, like you could
have gone away with this. We need more information and

(54:48):
if you have information, you know what to do. Call
them live at eight six six crime. That's eight six
six to anyone. Come, it's ani six to anyone Time.
That's eight six sext two on two seven four or
six three you guys. Um sorry about that weird whisper,
Stay safe, we love you, don't commit me crimes can night.

(55:10):
Oh you can also find us on the internet, you know,
all the places, Dmitri Pappas on Instagram again like I
said before, very funny Instagram account, and Leo Lamar with
two hours at the end on Instagram, Twitter TikTok has
five hours, and my to dot com. I'll be doing
some stand up in London, so if you're in town

(55:30):
next week, dm me. I got a lot of messages
when I was in London last weekend. I did not
have time to do stand up because it's there for
a hot twenty four hours. But after that very hot,
very hot, I mostly slept a um. But I will
be back next week. I'll be doing some shows. Message
me and I can send you the information. Again. We

(55:52):
love you, I'll stay safe. Good night. It's real soon,
real soon around the trade. I mean, is it actually
real time crime or solving anything or is that just
the thing we say it's a thing we say, got it? Okay?
See NAXT week for more real time crime, only on
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