RTC Gone Wild

There's wild and there's disturbing...and the latter is where we are headed as Leah and Demetri are joined by award-winning documentary film director and writer Katinka Blackford Newman. In this episode they discuss the mind blowing details of Katinka's latest docufilm "Girls Gone Wild Exposed" which digs deep into the darkness of Joe Francis and his Girls Gone Wild franchise.All that plus the hot topics: A woman's twisted revenge on her cheating boyfriend, a chilling home discovery and what would you do if you found a large sum of money in a couch you got from Craigslist?  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to a real time crime
and welcome me back to America. Um baby in l A.
And if you are looking at a clip of me,
you can see we've got the murder board behind me,
which only means one thing. I'm at home. Am I happy? No?
I was just let's let's stop the facade. We don't

(00:35):
have to pretend like you're happy to be back in
your your apartment living room in Los Angeles while your
boyfriend is over in Europe. You left for Europe for
like You're like, I'm going for a long weekend. Five
weeks later, she's like, I'm back. Here's what really happened, Dmitri.
You didn't lay out the timeline correctly, and everyone deserve
know the details. I was going to a comedy festival
in Dubai for six days. Then some friends were like, hey,

(00:59):
when you come to in Croatia with us before Dubai.
Me having never been to Europe, never studied abroad, has
never gone on vacation, was like, yeah, maybe I'll do it.
And since I've never gone on vacation, I was basically
just like, oh my god, two and a half weeks
out of America, this is insane. I shouldn't do this.
This is crazy. So three days into my trip and

(01:20):
a visa, my friend Danny was like, oh my god,
there's this um Jewish guy coming and you I should
really get together. He's Australian. That was my Australian accent,
and I hate when people push Jews together. So I
was like, no, I don't want to meet this guy.
You know. It's like we're not going to get along
just because we're both Jewish, you know. And You're like, no,

(01:41):
we're gonna get along because holy crapp, he's hot. There
we go. I saw him and I was like, never mind,
I'm in um and the rest was history. And so
after Dubai, I went back to London, and then I
went to the can Film Festival, and I went back
to London, and then we went to Paris together, and
then we went back to London and I met his family. Oops,
I'll in into my ex in London who literally tackled

(02:03):
me to the street in front of your new boy.
He wasn't there, but he pulled me from here's the
craziest thing. He found me in London, pulled me from
behind and then tackled me down on onto the street
and I literally didn't even scare. Was your ex boyfriend
like a w w E wrestler or uh no. But

(02:24):
the fact that I didn't scream, let's you know that,
I'm just like prepared to die. I was like, well,
all right, it just gave up. I guess you got
to be that. In order to host a true crime podcast,
you have to be okay with with whatever happens. I
was like, well, this is it, you know, um. But anyway,

(02:45):
you guys, this is not what this is about. I
came here because I literally waited for the very last
day to come home for Air Griffin's wedding, which is today.
So go to Eric's wedding later. And if Eric wasn't
getting married, I would have stayed in Europe. So we
have Eric to thank for my grand return. Earn. Wait,
so why didn't you bring um, why don't you bring
your boyfriend back? He also has a wedding. Did Eric

(03:07):
not give you a plus one? Yeah? Well no, Eric,
Eric did give me a plus one ironically yesterday because like, yeah,
we have a cancelation. You want to bring your boy
and my keys in. He's been following your social media
like crap. Well, Eric has heard of me talk about
my sad seat of life literally for years now, so he,
of all people, is very happy about this. But no,

(03:27):
he couldn't come. He also has a wedding, but I'll
see him in a couple of weeks. You guys, no
one wants here about thank you. I think I think
they deserved an update because I'm sure they've been following
you on social media. I think they deserve to kind
of hear the update and what's going on. But it's
also understanding we don't want to lay it all out
now because we want to save it for when he
comes on. Yeah, but also, you know on my social media,
I'm still single and all my clips are like, oh
my god, I'm single. And there was a couple of

(03:51):
your story has got a couple of pictures. They look
like engagement pictures. So I was gonna ask you about that.
He only lost two thousand followers one photo of him,
did you really? I lost two thousand followers, and then
I posted some stories being like, look, people, at some point,
I am going to find a guy who will stay forever.
So if you're going to leave, just leave now, because
if I don't know what you thought, did you think

(04:11):
I was gonna marry you person I've never met from
the internet, Like, what did you want? Yeah? But I
mean you know so anyway, moral of a story is, uh,
I haven't really released the crack in on Instagram yet,
thank you. Speaking of boyfriends, our first hot topic today
deals with a woman who allegedly films herself throwing her

(04:34):
cheating mother's ashes in a body of water. Hm. The
fact that you just said you've heard and seeing it all,
I mean, that's one of our hot topics for today.
Another hot topic will be discussing is an animal rescue
ceo arrested after thirty dead cats and dogs found in
her house. Finally rounding out with a socalled woman finding

(04:56):
thirty six dollars in cash hidden in account she bought
off Craigslist. And we have a very special guest today,
Katinka Newman, who is a documentary filmmaker who created Girls
Gone Wild Exposed, which will be airing Monday, doing thirteenth
on t n T. I can't wait to talk to her.
But let's go back to that first. Let's not over
So she this woman had a boyfriend that cheated on

(05:18):
her and her revenge was to film herself. By the way,
when you film yourself, you can't self sticks. But you
can't then say I didn't do it, because you may
be evidence yourself. You're literally like, look at me, I
did it, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I did it.
But this this this, So there's the two wrongs make
a right thing right, but then there's like a worse

(05:40):
or a worse wrong. Right. So I'm sorry that your
boyfriend cheated on you. Okay, but if you want to,
I don't really give ah, it seems like he cheated
because she's a little crazy. Well yeah. And then so
her getting back at him was to throw his mother's
ashes in a lake, Like I don't think I'm sorry
that he cheated on you. Move on. It was a
boy friend. Sometimes this ship happens. I don't think it

(06:02):
should happen, but sometimes it does. But two, then desecrate
his mother's ashes in a lake, because that's like your
revenge thing. Just lose the sympathy. The whole point of
of doing something or saying you got cheated on, I assume,
is to gain sympathy, and you've thrown that out the window.
I think we're gonna have to call you, Dmitri popass Off.

(06:22):
I think we're I think we're okay, Okay, you never mind. Yeah.
So this forty year old woman, Augustine Gladden e in
May I mean okay. So this is nearly two years
after she was accused of throwing her boyfriend's mother's ashes
into Lake Worth Um had a video go viral on
social media about her throwing the ashes the lake. Of course,

(06:47):
it's always social media bringing things back into the light,
use social sleuths. Apparently this happened in you know, covid
made people do crazy things, but she cannot check off
COVID for this one. This is all her babe. So
apparently they were not a good terms, which is obvious.
And then the man overheard a conversation between the suspect
and her daughter in which she said she'd thrown the
urn into the lake and then she later did admit

(07:10):
to it, and a video posted to the social media
platform TikTok l o l described the incident gain traction
over the weekend, gaining more than the thirty thousand views,
which should be honest, is not that name um. The video,
which appears to be re enactment of the incident, received
a hundred comments, and to be fair, I don't know
why we're considering this viral like this is. You know,

(07:33):
I got a hundred comments on bathing suit. I should
have gotten more, to be fair, should have gotten more.
It should have been illegal that I only got a hundred.
But she's now facing an abuse of a corpse charge,
which is a class A misdemeanor. I mean, that's class
as Let me wow, thank you, thank you, welcome back

(07:55):
to l a joke. I really appreciate it. Now let
me ask you something to Metri. What's the craziest thing
you've done or would do to get revenge on an
unfaithful partner? Ear muffs to your wife? E exactly what
I said. Played the sympathy card right, getting that the
whole point of when you've been wrong, this is your
prime opportunity to get to get sympathy and to get

(08:15):
attention from other people. Just just own it. Once you
do something wrong back, then you're just as bad, but
in a different on a different stage. Well, Dmitri, thank
you for asking me the same question in return. So
here's literally Leah, how about you? You're not allowed to breathe, Dmitri.
I'm well aware that you asked me a question so
that you can answer and go ahead, what would you do?

(08:38):
You know, that's like when someone says, like you text someone, hey,
how are you? But really you're just trying to get
the conversation going so you can talk about yourself anyway.
Um Hey, Dmitri, Hey, how are you okay? So I
will say that this was not intentional and it's not
as weird or crazy at all as anyone would think.
So I had suspected that my ex boyfriend was cheating
on me with multiple women around in the world, which

(09:01):
he was. It was a long story. So then there
was one day where he was in Mexico l O
L and he told me he was so tired. He
was working on set and I had so much thing
was like, oh, babe, I'm so sad for like, you know,
you're you work so hard. You deserve sleep and you
deserve all the best things. You're so hard working. I

(09:23):
love you so much. And he's like, oh, I'm just
going from set to sit. Did he say sex to
sex or set to the set? L O L? Hurt
my feelings one more time? In Dmitri, I might just
cry about it, don't worry. I don't have any feelings left.
Was it the antidepressants or is it the exhaustion? Who's
to say so. Then so then there was this girl

(09:43):
that he recently started following on Instagram. Um, at this time,
on Instagram, you could still see who liked too his photos,
so you were still able to you were still able
to stalk feeble that right, right, he was liking all
our photos. And then I saw that he had been
commenting all this extremely flirty stuff on her photos, and

(10:06):
he recently started following her. And then I saw that
they were musical music festival together and she was posting
like her eyes on him on her Instagram story and
all this sort of stuff very benign. So then he
came home and I asked him about her. I said, Hey,
what's something going on that girl? And he was like,
you're being crazy, nothing's going on with her. And she's

(10:31):
an old friend, Oh, an old friend that you just
happened to meet this weekend, someone you just started following
because she's such an old friend. Anyway, So then the
next weekend he's like he goes back to Mexico and
he was like, oh, I'm so tired and going set
to set again, and I have a little less sympathy
this time. And I see that she happens to be

(10:53):
on set from her Instagram stories because she's a little
cloud chaser. He was well known person. Okay, So then
I see in her Instagram story he was like, Babe,
I can't make it back to America. I gotta shoot
this whole weekend. And I was like, that's okay, I
understand you're busy. Congratulations on being successful. I've seen her

(11:16):
Instagram story that they she actually let me reverse. He
flew to go see her in Guadalajara for the whole
weekend and she's instagramming the fun. You were still together
at this point. No, no, no. So once I saw
that there had been some questionable moments in the past
where I like blocked unblocked him, you know, went crazy.
I was like, you're cheating on me and he was like, no, no,

(11:38):
I just got um I caught something at the gym.
I'm sure he did. I would rule that out either,
and um, yeah, I caught something at the gym. So
I didn't. And I didn't want you to think I
was cheating on you with someone, so I didn't want
to tell you I was home. When I was home,

(11:58):
you know, there's a lot of little white lies in there,
I think along the way white lies are just full
on lines. Anyway, more old story. So then I blocked
him on everything. And at this time, I'm basically living
with this guy. I had already moved out of my
apartment and I was just about to leave to go

(12:19):
to an event. So I had this is so random.
I cut my hair, and I had intended to come
back to the apartment, but I never went back to
the apartment. And I left my hair, like my dead
hair all over the floor. So weird, like piles of

(12:42):
dead air everywhere. That's our social clip right there, no context,
just I just left my dead hair all over the
floor like I left the DNA. We know who did it.
It was me. It's my hair on the floor. Is
it's exactly the color of my hair because it's my hair,
sure is. And um, I can only imagine since I
blocked him, he tried getting in touch with me a bunch. Uh,

(13:06):
he came home and just saw my hair everywhere. Anyway. Um,
not to beat a dead hair. Still not as bad
as throwing an urn of of of mother his mother's
ashes and like, no, Dodd, Dodd, but it's not and
it wasn't even revenge, it was unintentional. I just couldn't
fathom the idea of going back there anyway. Um, So yeah,

(13:30):
let's just move on. I think because I'm I think
I spent a lot of time talking about my ex boyfriend.
I'm actually a little more nervous to hear what story
you might have that goes along with this next one. Sorry,
seeing the light fade from Dmitri's eyes the harrowing thing.
So this woman is arrested after they find dead cats
and two dead dogs and two dead cats that were

(13:52):
decomposed and kept inside cages and creates in her home.
And she was the CEO of an animal rescue so
I think she I think she misinterpreted what that job entailed.
Dear God. Apparently deputy has performed a welfare check at
her home, Caroline Pennington's house. She's forty seven. Uh, this

(14:13):
is May twenty second, So it does a couple of
weeks ago after receiving calls about a smell of death
at her house. Not even something weird's happening, the smell
of death. Who called this in? I don't know who
called it in, But I mean, obviously it must have
been a neighbor or something. But it's twisted. This woman
was the CEO of an animal rescue and somehow she
got thirty animals into her home and it says that

(14:36):
they died from um starvation and dehydration. So that that
was my point. Clearly, she doesn't know what that job entails.
Where was she rescuing from them from if she brought
them home and left them to do, absolutely animal cruelty.
But also, like, do you think that you would be
able to identify the smell of I think it's probably
a smell of like because people have reported like when
it's usually like a dead body or something. But people

(14:58):
people say, oh, it's just it's probably beyond a stench
that you've ever comprehended. So you're like, this has got
to be something bad. The other thing that's so odd
is that apparently they've been deceased for a while. How
did she live there? How did she physically live there?
Wouldn't you not be able to breathe? I'm guessing she

(15:19):
has some issues. She's not all there um clearly obviously
to do any of the stuff that she has done.
Um is sick and twisted, So it's a great question
how did she live there? But it's kind of like
who even needs an answer for that? Because if you're
able to do the first part, the second part doesn't
really the second part is not going to surprise. I mean,
do you think she used her status as CEO and

(15:41):
director of the animal rescue called Growl to steal donations
meant for the care of animals? Mud? But what was
she even doing with that money? Like it appears it's
not as if she was taking care of herself or
her home or what was she using the money for?
Kind of confusing. I don't condone and scams like that, obviously,

(16:01):
and especially not when you're harming animals. But I mean,
this is gonna sound so think it through though. If
you're taking the money and you're taking me up, you're
just bringing them home and then leaving him dead and
you're in your house or your apartment, it doesn't it
a huge mental disconnect here obviously for many reasons, but
you couldn't even execute this. What do you think that
she'll get charged with? And do you think that she'll

(16:23):
file for mental owners I think that's what I think
that's the hip thing to do. The trendy thing to
do now is to is to say, oh, is mental
illness because we're probably not there to think of it, right,
because maybe they do have a mental illness or they
obviously have some sort of mental illness to be able
to do something like this. But two then be like,

(16:44):
you know, they get a lawyer, and a lawyer says, well,
here's what we're gonna do, and that's where the whole
I just I understand that everybody deserves a lawyer, but
that's where this kind of stuff bothers me is because
don't come in and give them something that might get
them off, because they don't deserve to get off, and
they don't deserve to make up reasons why they can
get out of something. Just lay out the truth and
I let the jury decide. And guys, that was Dmitri

(17:05):
Pappus on getting off. I don't think that was the illegal.
Uh all right. We don't have a lot of time
today because we have an incredible interview coming up, So
I just want to, do you mind if we just
run through this last story to me, because I think

(17:26):
it's we're leaving it on an upbeat. I think we
should do that before we were the guest. I think
let's let's have an upbeat story. And this is a
wild story because I just want to say good people
like this I think are rare. And it sounds like
this woman found got odd, which most of us need
to do. Let me listen. Okay, this so cold woman
finds thirty six thousand dollars in cash in cold art
cash hidden in her couch that she bought on craigslist.

(17:49):
Like okay, and here's what happens is in one of
the pillows. And she said she was never tempted to
keep what she found. She immediately returned the money to
the family who gave her the furniture. She said, God
has been kind to me and my children. They're all
alive and well I have been beautiful grandchildren. So what
can I ever ask of God? Yeah? Thirty six dollars? Okay?

(18:12):
So she said he was browsing online ads for new
furniture and she saw some free items free, so she
clicked on the first thing that came to mind that
the family wanted to give away was a sofa and
everything in their bedroom. And she said she thought it
was maybe a gimmick and it wasn't a gimmick. The
family just wanted to give away the furniture and explain
that a loved one had recently passed and that they
were just liquidating everything they owned. So the sofa and

(18:37):
the chair fit perfectly into her home, and when she
was inspecting them, she just found thirty six thousand dollars
of cash and envelopes. And when she returned the cash
to the family, they said that they had also found
other cash inside the house, but only a few hundred dollars,
which is I mean, this is all crazy. Also, I
just will say my Jewish grandmother did this as well.

(18:58):
She had money in books and in in pillow cases
and just like a whole bunch of interesting things like that.
But anyway, as a thank you, they agreed to pay
for a new refrigerator for her and gave her very
I mean, if you found thirty six hundred dollars in
the second hand couch dollars, I think I'm I think

(19:22):
I'm I'm notifying the people, I honestly do. I think
one part of me would probably a little scared to
be like, do they know? And now they're gonna come
and get it at some point. So I'd like to
to take out the portion where they come breaking into
my house to take it back. Maybe they were hiding
it from someone and how to get it out of
the house. I don't want to be the target from
somebody else. But also, you know, I can't sit here
and preach that. I think people should do the right

(19:43):
thing more often. And I'd be like, oh, if I
found thirty six thou dollars in a couch where I
knew where the couch came from, if I got the
couch from like a second hand store, maybe it's different.
I probably hold on the money. I thought it was
drug money. That was my first thought, right, was that
this is dirty money, and that's so terrifying. My second
thought was could I pay off my student loans in cash?

(20:06):
And the answer is no, not even close. But the
thing is so my My first and um, I'm know
we're gonna go because we have a guest, But my
thing is my first thing was like, you know what,
who who hides thirty six thousand dollars and then forgets
like you sell a couch, whatever you do, you don't
remember you put it there. But then it said that
a lovel one had passed, so clearly the loved one
probably hit it there and they were just getting murder

(20:27):
of the furniture. So then I really do feel badly
for them, Yeah, of course. And it's like, you know,
the money and for the family. Do you think they
should have given her more money? I probably would have
given her, like I don't know, thousand dollars and you
get twenty two hundred and a new fridge. Oh, this

(20:48):
is like the prices, right, it is like the press, right,
the fridge and you get a fridge and you that's oprah.
I probably would have done five thousands. Yeah, I wouldn't
have that. That was the number that came to me
to look at us, look at us a little five
thousand airs. But also you know, it's interesting like I
found something valuable in an unexpected place once too, I
found a British Jewish boyfriend and abisa, which is like

(21:09):
I literally fell in love and a hopeless placed. So anyway,
you guys let us know in the comments on at
Real Time Crime Pod how much money you would have
given her back. And we gotta go to break because
we're about to talk to a Girl's Gone wild. Bosed
documentary filmmaker and we're about to hear everything, all the

(21:32):
dirty secrets about Girls Gone Wild that we have not
heard about. So stay tuned, don't touch that dial. We'll
be right back and we're back. Hello, everyone, Welcome back

(21:56):
from our break. I hope you enjoyed whatever ad you
listen to. I know I did. Guys, this part of
the episode is really special. We have with us an
incredible award winning documentary filmmaker, director, and writer who created
Girls Gone Wild Exposed, which is airing Monday June on
t n T. Her name is Katinka Blackford Newman. Katinka. Okay,

(22:21):
we're very glad to have you here today and I
am just so excited about Girls Gone Wild Exposed, which
is airing Monday, June on t NT, the day before
my birthday. Early birthday gift for me, Katinka. So, you're
an award winning documentary filmmaker, director, writer, and you've been

(22:41):
in the TV business for over twenty five years, so
you know a good story when you hear one. And
we've got a million questions for you about Girls Gone
Wild Exposed, Why you got involved, what intrigued you about it?
And we can get into all of that in just
a second, but For those of you who don't know
what Girl Has Gone Wild is because you've been lynn
living under a rock. Let's talk a little bit about

(23:03):
what Girls Gone Wild Exposed will uncover. It will uncover
the truth behind former Hollywood it boy Joe Francis as
he continues to evade justice and reveals for the first
time audio recording a verbal altercation between Francis and his
estranged wife, plus young women's account of being exploited, coerced,
and assaulted while Francis raked in millions of dollars. On June,

(23:26):
Will air Girls Gone Wild Exposed, taking viewers beyond the
harmless fun of what T shirt competitions and bus fueled
spring breaks and into dark back rooms with Joe Francis,
where girls were coerced to take part in actions far
more sinister than flashing on a beach. The show documents
frances is increasingly bizarre and violent downward spile, which all

(23:47):
played out in the public eye while he continued to
rub shoulders with some of Hollywood's most popular stars. I'm
sure you know a lot of them. With first time
exclusive accounts, the two hour episode uncovers an audio recording
of a verbal altercation between Frances and his estranged wife,
along with interviews from the women who say their lives
were ruined and who are now battling to reclaim their
identities by sharing their stories, some of whom were even

(24:11):
on the covers of these videos without ever even knowing it.
All right, Katenka so pleased to be here. It was
so happy to have you. And I mean, everyone knows
about Girls Gone Wild. This is a huge sensation that
took America by storm. And I guess we're curious to
know what attracted you to the Girls Gone Wild story

(24:32):
in the first place, and how did this whole project
come about? Well, I guess as a as a film
like filmmaker, I like to give a voice to ordinary people. Um.
And it struck struck me that there was that there
was definitely going to be a story behind this. But
what I didn't realize I thought to begin with that
I was going to be making a film about a

(24:54):
sleazy pornographer. Had no idea the extent of the abuse
um that was behind the Girls Gone Wild empire. UM
so Joe Francis. He basically was given a free pass
by the entertainment industry, by the Celebsit that he hung
out with um and women trusted him. People trusted him
because he rubbed shoulders with the Kardashians and m Brad Pitt,

(25:19):
Jennifer Andison go on and so forth. Um So, to
begin with, I thought it was I thought that we
were going to be making something that that was was
just looking perhaps at the that that you know, things
weren't quite as they seemed, and that there would be something,
you know, beyond the kind of the girls flashing the

(25:41):
camera the camera, and so you didn't know how right
you were. I didn't know how what wright it was
absolutely right. So, um, it turned out to be a
much bigger story I was. I was genuinely shocked by
some of the footage that I saw. So basically what
was happening is that girls were being filmed without there,
without even knowing that the cameras were there. So some

(26:04):
some girls were taking part in bikini contests and they
had no idea that the cameras were there, and then
they would discover many years later that they were had
been cut into the Girl's Gone World videos. But worst
of all, there were girls who were some some were underage,
but some had just turned eighteen. They were they were

(26:26):
applied with drink by Joe Francis and his cameramen, and
they were then asked to sign very complex legal documents,
and then he and his camera member would persuade them
to take part in really hardcore girl on girl sex
scenes that they would never ever usually have taken part in,

(26:46):
and then they would wake up the next morning think,
oh God, what what what did I do? And of
course that they had signed away all of their rights
and that's what it just still out there. It's interesting
because you when you say, you know, it's it seemed
one thing and I do you know, this was at
the time where all this kind of reality stuff was
really booming, and so people thought, oh, I'm gonna be

(27:08):
on camera, but it was really was portrayed in Hollywood
and everywhere. I'm proud to say that I never bought
any of those and I never got into those, but
it was there was portrayed that this was just people
having fun and oh there's a camera, I'm gonna lift
up my shirt, and it seemed very much like everybody was,
you know, was going along with this is just people
who wanted to do this. But then I watched them
and deep down and after the years went on, we

(27:30):
learned that it wasn't that. But I watched the trailer
for your documentary, and uh, fantastic, by the way, even
just that two and a half minutes. But when it goes, oh,
and this, and girls were doing this and this, and
then you cut to the one girl and she goes,
it was the worst out of my life. And it's
like that right there encapsulated everything that we didn't know
what was happening. You know, we thought, as you explained,

(27:51):
everybody thought, oh, they're doing this for a free T shirt,
how exciting. But there was so much darkness behind it.
And and also most of these women were never compensated, right,
that's right. I mean he was making his hype was
one while I was making a hundred million a year,
and these girls were getting a T shirt or a hat.

(28:12):
So it was built into his business model that he
knew that he would be that that that he would
be sued by some girls who are underage or whose
image he had stolen or whatever. On the for the
main part, he got away with it because once these girls,
if they were eating her over, if they had signed
that document, that was it. They had no rights whatsoever.

(28:34):
But occasionally girls who were under age or whatever would
would be able to sue. So that was in his
business model. So there was a lawyer who was who
was representing somebody and she had access to these documents
and that was that was in his business plan that
he was that millions would be spent on when he

(28:55):
was dude, but then very very in terms of talent,
it was just T shirts and hats. Can you imagine
being So it's in your business model. Put some money
aside for when we inevitably get sued for taking advantage
of under each girls like that's that's in the budget.
That's why do you think they didn't take any precautions
to find out how old people were before they felt

(29:16):
they did? They did, but girls, I mean did the
sad things were so keen to do it that they
would lie about their age. For me, I call girls
gone wild. When I look at my credit card statement
after going to the Chanel store in Paris getting that
back for a while, Joe France has got nothing on me. Um, yeah,

(29:43):
I mean this is honestly. This is also interesting because
Joe touted female empowerment because he said that these women
had a choice to participate in the videos he produced,
just like you were saying, and when you factor in
all the alcohol they consume, do you believe that they
were actually at menage of or do you think that
there was an element of female empowerment. I mean when

(30:07):
you some of the some of the videos of just girls,
you know, just taking taking their t shirt up and
flashing their breasts and so on, you know, that's that's
one thing. It's a completely different thing when you've got
girls who are drunk scenes and really genuinely their lives

(30:32):
were ruined by that. You know, years later that that
footage was out there, they met, but at that point
they they have got married and so on and so forth. Um,
some were, um just kind of ostracized by their community
because of what because of what had happened. So it
really lives were being ruined. It. It just wasn't about

(30:55):
girls flashing for the cameras. That's not what it was.
That's really not what what that was about. That was
just a front and behind that something much much since
more sinister was going on. And as the as our
research progressed, worse than that that that Joe Francis is
a violent abuser. The film opens with an audio recording

(31:21):
of him beating up his the mother of his children.
M and there have been many charges of violence against him.
So he's got form. And what's the current state of
him right now? Is he out of the country in Mexico,

(31:41):
So if he comes back to the to the States,
he'd be arrested. And he's just living in a luxurious
a state, right. Yeah, he has a beautiful Mexican villa.
Uh yeah, yeah, his wife, he's not his His wife
is fighting for custody for the for the children. Embroiled
in a in a custody battle, and he was saying

(32:04):
that she kidnapped their two daughters. But I guess that
she left saying that Francis was doing drugs and was
abusive throughout all that, Right, isn't that what was going
on there? I think he says that she could um,
he says that she kidnapped the children. I doubt if
she's got the children. They met because of the you know,

(32:29):
America's most Hottest Woman in America competition, Right, that was
how they met and she won, That's right. Yes, I
think I think they may have met before that, but
but she was but she was in the in the
girl's Gone wild idears, So it was a competition for
the position of his girlfriend. Well basically, well, you know,

(32:55):
it's really interesting because there is a difference between flashing
a camera, right, that doesn't necessarily ruin your or that's
something that happens at Mardy Grad that that's HBO or
Netflix say, but anything past that, you know, some people
might even say doing that could can make your career
as an actress. But anything past that is you know
that that's exploiting someone if that is against their wishes.

(33:16):
Well they were. They were completely drunk and and persuaded
to sign very complex legal documents that company the rights
to the right to sell that, to use that those
images and sell them to to other distributors. So it

(33:41):
was it's really sad. I mean when I when I
watched those videos, it was just sickning. You could just
so young and it kind of looked like child pornography,
it really did. They were They looked so young, they
were so impressionable, and they were they were being forced
into into augy is and Joe was coaching the girls,

(34:03):
right did jail All his camera men were choreographing these orgies.
You know, millions of people were buying these videos. People
saw what was going on, So it's really extraordinary that
it's it's kind of allowed to character continue. Yeah, they

(34:29):
they had infomercials, right and the and like the paid
programming on TV where they would advertise these videos and
people would order them and they would be sent and
the fact just to think that that's what was on
the videos and that was happening. And I don't know
if it was just that he went about it legally
from the perspective of being able to do anything about it,
but that seems kind of ridiculous to be able to
buy paid programming and have a commercial for people to

(34:51):
order vhs and DVDs. Yeah, particularly that because they weren't
being paid. I mean, it's quite different thing, isn't it.
If you've got actors who are big, who who understand
the contract that they're signing and elect to take part
in a pornography scene because they're being properly paid, that's
a completely different thing than girls who are barely legal

(35:17):
of the legal age, you know, barely eighteen and some
in some instances they were also underage because they lied
about their age. But yes, say they are just eighteen, Um,
they just don't know what they're doing. They're not getting
paid for it at all. They're getting a hat or
a T shirt. It's completely wrong and exploitative, and they're

(35:38):
doing things they just clearly would never usually do. Right,
And so Joe filed for bankruptcy before Mexicol with his
ex Abbey and their two daughters. So do you think
that he has as money to survive for a long time? Well,

(35:59):
I know that you can that he rents out his
Mexican villa for I think it's something like forty dollars
a night, So he has a lot of celebrity guests.
You know, what do you think the man? The man

(36:20):
is as an entrepreneur through and through? Yeah? Right? He
said he has two daughters. Now I don't know how
old they are. But do you think or was there
any kind of change in his mind at some point
when he all of a sudden he was taking advantage
of these girls for so long that when he had daughters.

(36:40):
Sometimes it can change someone because you see something from
a different perspective. Do you think there was any any
bit of that? You think he's just as as sleezy
now as he was then. Um, I think that Joe
Francis has a lot of uncontrollable anger issues. Documentary reveals
his impowering taken had taken out a restraining order against it.

(37:04):
There were many charges and one of the reasons that
he fled to Mexico was there was he if he
came back, he would have to go to prison because
there was a he was he was found guilty of
assault and battery. He invited some girls back to his
house um and wouldn't allow them to leave and and

(37:29):
banged one of their heads against the ground. So that
was the That was the final charge and led to
him fleeing from Mexico as well. Of course there was
the money issues as well. So he has huge violent

(37:51):
he has huge issues with abuse and violence. And I
don't think that that just changes overnight and ego because
I are the line where he says, I'm Joe Francis,
like he thinks, you know, clearly thinks he's untouchable, Like
why would why would I have to answer to anything
he has that he does have? Yeah, exactly, there is
a sense of entitled mention, and I think that it's

(38:12):
just not something that changes overnight. And the documentary dells
into some into a possible EXPNA. She's not an excuse,
but it's an explanation for where that comes from. He
went to one of those, UM, one of those schools
for troubled teens where the schools were very wealthy pet
middle class parents send their kids who are a bit troublesome,

(38:36):
and they are these schools are well. The school that
he went to was shut down because of abuse, UM.
And the regime is just horrendous. I mean literally, you're
dropped their age for eleven or twelve, Your parents don't
tell you that you're going there, that you think you're
going somewhere completely different, and then you look up and

(38:58):
they're driving down down the driveway and you don't. You
don't see them for another twelve months. So he went
to one of those schools, and many as the pupils
who went there, UM, some have have killed themselves, some
have drug problems, all sorts. So some of them have

(39:19):
then turned and and done the same thing to other
people where they lie to them. And of course, so
it's this, it's what it's the situation, isn't it that
the abuse becomes the abusers? Maybe is where his need
to control who has come from. Well, I mean to
me teaser, it just seems like a level of narcissism

(39:44):
that's completely uncontrollable. He thinks he can get out of
any legal issue. He's he's kicking and screaming, essentially being
like do you know who I am? That's that his
whole energy is do you know who I am? As
they're showing him with Mario Lopez and you know he's
rubbing shoulder. Is that the Kardashians. You know. It's also
confusing because it's like, with all the money he had

(40:05):
and all the success, how did he get so far
in debt? Well, um, it's a good question, I guess. Um. Well,
actually the main reason entirely because of that, because of

(40:25):
that sense of entitlement and us and so he basically
he um, uh, he lost a whole load of money
in one of Steve Win's casinos. Um, and then he
landed to win, Oh my god. And then there was
a big court case and uh, and Joe lost. So

(40:47):
he lost a huge amount of money from that. Now,
let me ask you this. So when you started this
documentary said Okay, I think I know what this is.
This is going to be this you know, pornography thing,
and then you realized that the depth in the darkness
to it, was there ever point either where you wanted
to stop or was it that you wanted to Then

(41:09):
you became someone like I really want to get to
the bottom of all this and expose all of this.
And and I imagine there's a part of you that
hopes that this guy will be caught and brought back
in and justice will be served. For the justice will
never be served because those people won't get it, will
never wipe away from their lives, They'll never get their
lives back and all the trauma that's happened to them,
but justice being serving that he would have to, you know,
suffer for what he's done as well. Well. The documentary

(41:32):
was commissioned initially is a one hour and then when
we realized what we had, the broadcaster asked if if
we could make it into a two hour and we
were like yeah, um. And I think for me the
most important thing was that actually these women hadn't hadn't
had a voice before. It takes a lot of courage

(41:54):
to come out on TV and say that you've been
raped by somebody who um, who has been a celebrity, UM.
And I think that I think it's been amazing for
the for the for the survivors to have had a
voice in the documentary and to really be believed, because

(42:16):
I think that I think that there's a sort of
consensus that a TV documentary like this, we wouldn't give
people a platform unless we were sure that their versions
of events were extremely credible. We wouldn't take the risk.
So it automatically gives people credibility. He doesn't it, um

(42:37):
And I think that that has been massively empowering for
women who have for the women who have been completely disempowered.
And you'll see when you see the documentary, you'll see
that these are women who were disbelieved and who in
one instance, she she one a paltry amount in a

(42:58):
in a case against France, so she got ten tho
dollars because argued made some kind of argument that the
company was going to again bankrupt or whatever, and that
she should just take what she could get or whatever. Um. So,
So for me, that was the most satisfying thing. Um.

(43:19):
And he's an incredibly charming, convincing man who may well
just believed his own publicity that you know, the things
that he says that he genuine when you. You'll see
in the documentary that he just says things that completely
are not true. Like there's a video of him and

(43:39):
there's some CCTV footage of him beating somebody up, and
you just and you just then see him saying, oh,
you know that, that he didn't do it, and I
just wonder whether he believes it. But he actually just
really has his own kind of version of events just
playing in in his hair it and he is a

(44:00):
complete He believes what he tells himself, and certainly a
lot of people believe him because he's just so charming,
so weird, because I just keep telling people I want
an Oscar, but I didn't, and I really do believe it,
I really do, you know. I think that is again
just like a level of narcissism that's so out of control.

(44:22):
And a lot of narcissists are very charming. That's why
people fall for them, and that's why they make great
business people. That's why you know, a lot of narcissists
do very well financially when they're unmasked. This sort of
behavior happens because the narcissists love themselves, right, so then
they portray that and then people see that confidence, and
it goes back to some of the best liars of
the thing. It's that old Costanza, George Costanza from Seinfeld.

(44:45):
He goes, it's not a lie if you believe it.
And so it's very possible that Joe Francis thinks I
didn't do anything wrong. I didn't do this, I didn't
do that, And it's like, that's very it's a very
difficult case to argue with with someone. I think that
that is uh. I think that's absolutely I think that
you're right. I think he just believe it himself. So

(45:08):
do you think that there's anything that people will find
absolutely surprising while watching the documentary? Yes, I think the
level of violence and I think the exploitation, but what
was really going on behind closed doors? But these girls
were just they were they were applied with drink. And

(45:29):
when you hear we couldn't were not we weren't allowed
to actually for obvious reasons, show the sex scenes. But
you can hear the audio, which in some ways kind
of like worse. I think people will just be totally shocked.
And the bases, the kind of the the whole kind
of business shenanigans, how he was with his business. You know,
people were tricked into a continuity agreement, the way he

(45:53):
was with his staff, so on and so forth, there
was a lot that we couldn't put in. But I
think the thing that we're in people's mind is um
The audio recording of him beating up is the mother
of his his children is absolutely chilling. I remember the
first time I heard it, it was like, you know,
it just made it was just sickly. It sounds like

(46:15):
he's about to kill her. Was the recording from before
Mexico or in Mexico, within Mexico recently she had recorded it?
M hmm. I mean, also, do you think, after researching
Joe that his intention when he set out to create

(46:36):
this empire was for to get this out of hand?
Like do you think that this was part of his
nature and his business plan or do you think it
started a little bit more innocently and then he just
started spiraling and seeing what he could get. I think
I don't know the answer to that question, but I
think that if you don't have a moral compass, it

(46:58):
doesn't take long. But that I mean, if you if
you don't have any kind of parameters, we don't have
any morality, I mean nothing was off limits for Joe Francis,
absolutely nothing. So he started actually taking clips. So he
worked as a production or he worked on a company
of making a program called Band from Television UM and

(47:25):
that was so basically he was he was that was
a serious sort of taking kind of outtakes that no
one could broadcast, and he would sort of package them up. Well,
that kind of like shows a sense of tastelessness anyway,
because they're kind of like accidents, you know, things that
train crashes, things that nobody else would want to want

(47:46):
to see, want to broadcast. So already you can see
that that this is somebody who who has a lack
of empathy that wants to make that you know that
that doesn't care what he's broad asking, doesn't care about
people's feelings, It doesn't have a sense of taste and decency,

(48:06):
just doesn't have a kind of moral compass, doesn't care
that he's making money out of people's misfortunes. And in
some instances, you know, people there's footage of people dying.
What did he care? It was gonna it was gonna
he was going to make money out of it, noether
that it was a train crash or skiing accident or whatever.
If you if you could make money out of it, great, well. Okay, So,

(48:29):
according to the Hollywood Reporter, Francis had been found guilty
of false imprisonment, tax evasion, defamation, contempt of court, and
assault causing great bodily injury, and he planned no contest
to fill any child abuse and misdemeanor inner prostitution. Do
you think that if he ever came back to America
that he would be charged with anything else? Um M,

(48:55):
I don't know the answer to that question. I mean
that would that would be enough. I mean, he'd certainly
have to start. He'd and me have to go to
prison to serve the sentence that he run away from,
that's for sure. And the woman whose head he bashed
did five? She did? Yes, she did? And does she
have any life long injuries? Um I don't know the

(49:18):
answer to that question. We didn't talk to her. We
talked to her. Uh. We talked to the policewoman who
handled that case, and we read the files. But that
seems to be his plans, his modus operanda. There were
more than one occasions when one occasion when he would

(49:40):
slam the head of a woman on the floor, but
that was that's his that's his mode of attack more.
He's done that more than once. Your claim to fame
is making a fortune out of other people's misfortunes. It's
pretty sick. Now. Question about the celebrit is because obviously

(50:00):
you mentioned he ran with some with some high profile celebrities.
I think I know the answer to this, But none
of them are in the documentary. No, I mean we
approached a hundred of his celebrity friends to ask them
to take part, and maybe that I that makes sense,
and as and it is, it is really shocking. You know,

(50:21):
they couldn't claim that they didn't know what was going
on at the time. I mean, Joe Francis was was
in prison as in the early two thousand's, and he
was imprisoned for quite serious charges, child pornography charges. But
and actually you're seeing the documentary, the King Kardashian is
wearing a T shirt saying free Joe Francis, and there's

(50:45):
a clip of her mom, you know, talking to to
phoning Joe in in jail, saying, oh, you know, we
must get you out. I mean, it's extraordinary because Joe
Francis wasn't he was in jail for serious charges and
they continue to be his friend when he is after that.
So I didn't know what will happen after the documentary

(51:07):
as whether they will um separate themselves from him. I
don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Imagine this,
that's that typical. We knew him as this, we didn't know.
It's kind of like people that an hour or nowadays
that the more recent one where I had never been
to the island. I didn't know what went on on
the island. You know. It's whenever someone's attached to someone
and then it comes out that that they were like, oh, yeah,

(51:30):
we're friends, and there's pictures. It's difficult to deny, as
you just mentioned with with some of those people that
they were in those scenes and all of a sudden,
it's like, well, I didn't know. So the next step
is to come out and say I didn't know what
was going on behind the scenes. I didn't know any
of that, and I'm apault. So I expect a wave
of that too when the documentary comes out. Well, yeah,
well you can't. They can't. They just can't say that
he was in jail in the early two thousand's, you know,

(51:55):
it was it was obvious what he was doing. I mean, yeah,
this has excellent vibes all over. I mean the other thing,
you know, it's the same thing as what Dmitri is saying.
It's it's like when people try to say, can you
separate the art from the artist? Where you know, it's
like all these people who occurred, and like, can you
separate Harvey Weinstein from all the amazing films he produced?

(52:17):
Can you separate? And I think it's once you know
the charges, and if you have eyeballs and you've been
hanging out for a while, you have to know. There's
no way you can't know. You know, it's just someone
turning a blind die. I mean, they knew. I mean.
The other thing is that this is feeling very reminiscent
of Hugh Hefner and the Playboy enterprises. You know. The

(52:39):
only difference I would say from what I'm hearing is
that he wasn't as violent. It's exact from what we
from what we've heard, you know, they think the violence
is really what separates them. And of course you never
was charged and ran to Mexico. Um, you know, do
you think that do you think that there's any store

(53:00):
of connection between Girls Gotten Wild and Playboy in that regard, Well,
I don't know too much about Playboy, but it seems
that it was a much more honest enterprise. I guess,
you know, people were paid, weren't they knew what they
were doing, they weren't underage, um, so it was it

(53:22):
was more it was more transparent and more open, whereas
this just this was just this was just kind of
like it was not what it seemed at all. That
was not it was not what it seemed. There was
no integrity there, there was no sense of, you know,

(53:47):
we're going to pay these people properly. They know what
they're doing, they're signing contracts, they know they there's informed consent.
This is so dark. This is like, this is like
the guy like Hugh Hefton, And I'm not justifying anything
he did, because we talked about his those exploits recently
on episode two. But this is kind of like Joe
Francis was just a guy that had came into money

(54:08):
and didn't didn't give a ship and didn't care no repercussions,
and and you know, you have to went about it
a different way. And again I'm not justifying what he did.
But Joe Francis just took didn't even take the precautions
to make it look like a legitimate thing. He you know,
he well, like you said, force people to sign things
when they were drunk and this and that. He didn't

(54:29):
pay him, and so it just seemed like he just thought, oh, Okay,
I got this thing going, I'm just gonna And I
imagine as the money came in and the celebrities hung
out with him, he probably felt more and more invincible. Yeah.
I think that's right. I mean, he's he's just some
of the that just he just has to win. And
you see it over and over again that you're either
you know, you're either with him or you're against him.

(54:51):
So he would just turn against anybody that the people
who had been friends who disagreed with him with him,
and he would just turn against and immediately and he
just and he just had to win. And that's why
he lost a lot of money at the end um
of his time in the in the in the States,
because he just got into this battle with Steve Win

(55:13):
which was ridiculous, and he ended up losing I think
as much as fourty million, so he had I mean, yeah,
I mean, sorry, a little shot in freud up. But
I mean it's also interesting because forty million to someone
who's making way more than that almost seems like a

(55:33):
drop in the butt when in the first two years
girl has gone wild and made more than twenty mail
and it was just in the first two years. It's like,
how do you how how how do you get to
such a level of narcissism that that you go against
Steve could win in because because you're all this money

(55:56):
for doing nothing, for for for basically partying. His entire
life was a spring break and he's got hundreds of
million dollars a roll again, So why wouldn't he think
that he can do anything in the world. That's that's insane,
Endemitri Springburn does for everything. You know, we don't wanna
take up all your time because we could do this forever.

(56:17):
But is there anything else that you would like to
share about the documentary or about Joe Francis or anyone
related to the documentary that you think our listeners. Um,
I just I hope that the documentary um just gives
courage to the victims of other abuses, ready to stand

(56:39):
up and be and be counted, and that as a
society that we will will listen victims of abuse, and
that you know, however famous or rich these guys are,
it's really important, isn't it that we um that we
keep our eyes open for for abuse, And is that

(57:01):
celebrities take responsibility who they're friends with because it's their
endorsements that allow these guys to get away with it. Yeah. Um,
I say, here, here's my pitch. I think we had
a dog to Bounty on the wrong one episode and
we're talking about Brian Landry at the time, and we
weren't sure if he was in Mexico, and he was like,
the FEDS can't go down to Mexico. He goes I can.

(57:23):
So here's my pitch. Keep the cameras rolling, Let's talk
to Dog and let's send him down there and drag
Joe Francis aspect to the US. And he is a
great cloud, great brilliant idea. Yeah, this is the case
for Dog. Okay, Well, Katinka, we can watch Girls Gone
Wild Exposed on June thirteen, that's Monday, June thirteen on

(57:43):
t n T. We'll be tuning in. I can't wait
to watch. After speaking with you and watching the trailer,
I am I don't think excited is the right word,
but I'm so intrigued about learning more about this case.
And if you guys are in Mexico, keep an eye
peeled for Joe Francis and don't give him your forty
k and night to stay at a villa. There other

(58:05):
villas in Mexico. You don't need to stay at his.
Good Poka, Tanka, it has been wonderful chatting with you.
Thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate
you something and thank you so much. Have a great
evening to thank you too, Tinka. Well, she was. I mean,

(58:34):
it's always interesting seeing someone that's so delightful. But clearly
she's you know, she knows what she's doing. She's good
her job, and I mean it's weird to think of
someone the type of person that you need to make
something like that right. In order to expose someone for
being a douche bag, you have to have someone that's
really good and wants to call that stuff out. Absolutely.

(58:56):
I think, sorry, are we gonna Uh? I'm like, what
order are we in? I think we're doing. I think
we're just tagging it now and then we can go
back and do the first part okay, great, um, so
we'll just cut this part out. Thank you, Danielle Hi.
All right, Wow, that was so specially getting to talk
to Entaca. Wow, that was so special getting to speak

(59:19):
with Katinka, And I'm very excited to tune in for
the episode episode. This is what happens when you just
get off a flight and then do a podcast. Hello,
thank you so much, and you guys, this has been
another episode of Real Time Crime. I've been Leo Lamar.
You can find me on Instagram, Twitter at Leo Lamar

(59:41):
l E H L A M A r R and
on TikTok with five hours and obviously Real Time Crime Pod.
Find us on Instagram, follow us Dmitri. Where can we
find you on the internet. You can find me same
thing Instagram and Twitter, says just at Dmitri pappas d
E M E t R I P A P p
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a crime that we've talked about? Fill us in call us.
Are you considering Oh, I cut off the jingle. If
you're considering committing a crime, call us first. We can
talk you down from it, unless the crime is stealing

(01:00:30):
my heart, because my British boyfriend will be very upset.
You guys, call us live at eight six six one
crime that's eight six six to anyone. Come eight six
six twenty one crime that's eight six six two on
two seven four six three. Stay safe. We love you.
Goodness my screen frost, goodbye, So actual slaves