May 24, 2022 • 27 mins
Virgie and Summer talk about fat erasure from fitness spaces, the new (fat positive!) rules of hiking, and the simple joy of petting moss.
Topics include:
Empowerment through Hiking [02:40]
“Fat Time” [05:05]
Nature/Body Parallels [07:36]
Fitness Trauma [10:58]
How Summer Reclaimed Nature [13:22]
Fat Girls Hiking [17:59]
Redefining “Hiking” [19:45]
The Fat Girls Hiking Community [23:30]
The Tool of Being in Nature [25:19]
For more of Summer’s work, follow her @fatgirlshiking and buy her new book "Fat Girls Hiking." For more Rebel Eaters Club, follow @virgietovar and @transmitterpods for updates! And be sure to visit rebeleatersclub.com to download your starter pack if you haven't already!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
From Transmitter Media. This is Rebel Eaters Club and I'm
your host, Virgie Tovar. Today we're going to be talking
about something super fun, super exciting, and a little bit sweaty.
It's hiking. Joining me is Summer Mashad's Good Summer is
the founder of Fact Girls Hiking, a collective for all
(00:23):
types of people and all types of bodies to get
excited about nature and movement. She's also the author of
a new book, also called Fact Girls Hiking, True to
Form Summer called in from a yurt in rural Oregon,
surrounded by the sounds of wind and dogs and the
occasional truck. Summer. Welcome to Rebel Eaters Club. Thank you
(00:45):
for having me, Virgie. I'm super excited to be talking
to you. Me too, Me two same Okay. So, in
Rebel Eaters Club sort of fashion or tradition, we start
with a snack. Do you want to tell us what
a snack Summer? Yes? So, my favorite snack for a
very long time, I think, since I was a child,
(01:06):
is popcorn. I love popcorn, MiG grape popcorn with toppings.
I love doing popcorn on the stove, um with oil
and let it pop and that's very fun and I
like to put um. Today I have Micway popcorn because
you know it's early, and I put a little parmesan
cheese on it. Yes, I mean I I also made
(01:26):
my grape popcorn. We have this death Star popcorn maker,
and I was like, I just don't have time to
pull it out. But it's so cool. It's like this
weird Star Wars e ball that shoots out popcorn. M okay,
so I'm going to count down from three ready three
to one? Chop Podgy. It's so delicious. I especially have
(01:54):
to say my favorite part of Mike. I mean, I
love the popcorn kernels when they're popped, but I actually
love the half popped kernels at the bottom of the
bag or the bowl whatever you have. They're just like
popped open just a tiny bit and they're crunchy. Oh.
I used to fight over them with my siblings when
I was a kid, Like I love the fat popped
(02:15):
blowing my mind a little bit because like, I feel
like those are sort of I don't know, I don't know.
I think I feel like those kernels are controversial territory.
I'm like, I feel like it there would be untouchable kernels,
And so I'm like, are we reclaiming the bottom kernels?
Are we doing this? I have to be just like
popped open, just a tiny bit, not the ones that
are unpopped, you know, just a tiny pop. And oh
(02:35):
it's like I don't know. Okay, I'm gonna have to
try this. I'm gonna try acquired taste maybe yeah, yeah, Okay,
I'm doing it though, m Okay, so tell me. I mean,
so in your new book, you write, I didn't know
my body's strength and resilience until I put myself in
situations where I had to rely on my intuition, knowledge
and creative problem solving to get my fat body from
(02:59):
the trailhead, through the woods and to the destination. I mean,
I love that this idea of hiking is something that
can strengthen intuition, that can connect us to our problem
solving abilities. Right, um, And so I guess this leads
me to the question, right, when hiking goes right, what
(03:20):
does it do for you? What does it do for
a person? I think it's empowering. I think it really
is empowering, and I've I've had lots of other people
say the same thing. It's really good for your mental
health to be in nature like that, Like there's it's
like scientifically proven, there's been studies done about it, right,
And I think that's amazing that it has that benefit.
(03:42):
And I can really see how it benefits me, and
when I've led group hikes, how it benefits other people,
how they can just slow down, go at the pace
that feels comfortable for them. And really, you know, pet
the moss, look at a leaf, see how the lights
coming through the tree. Is just what does that feel like?
And what is that experience going to be like? To
(04:05):
be really in nature in that way, and especially when
it's warm enough to have bare feet on the ground,
there's something about like I am part of this earth
and the earth is part of me, and it makes
me feel like insignificant. It really does. It really is
(04:27):
like this healing space where I can be like I
am just being, I am just existing, I'm in this
world and I definitely feel that that. You know, it's
really like nurturing my inner child to like, you know,
walk on a log. And but yesterday I did a
little walk and there's a bay and I was it
was low tide, so I was walking in the bay
and there's all this drift logs and I would found
(04:49):
some sticks and then I'm just like drawing in the sand.
And it's just such a simple thing, right, just finding
a cool stick and drawing in the sand. And you
know there's no point to it, but it feels good.
And I think we all need that, we all need
to like just play. Really, it's just play. Yeah. I
mean when you say it makes you feel insignificant, I
(05:10):
completely understand that. I mean, like, I live really close
to the Pacific Ocean, like walking distance, and I notice
on days where my problems or my trauma start to
feel massive, the ocean is always there to remind me
of the scale, the scale of time, the scale of nature.
(05:31):
And it can be so liberating to be reminded of
this thing that can be so pressing in the moment,
like maybe a deadline, maybe that thing that you messed
up on at work or whatever, and then you go
into nature and you see the enormity and the incredibleness
of it and you're reminding I think the other thing
that I love about nature is time is different in nature.
(05:54):
And I sort of feel like, you know, I didn't
come up with this, Actually, some other scholars did, but
it's called that time. It's also like queer time or
people of color time, right, this idea that like there
are these sort of alternative ways, the alternative speeds of
life that are possible, right, because we're sort of told
there's this one way to take time, like everything should
(06:16):
be as fast as possible, as pragmatic or as practical
as possible. But nature is actually on a totally different
It's not on the deadline system. It's on its own thing.
And I think that's one of the most healing things
to me about nature is being like, wow, like the
time it takes for one single leaf to grow, the
time that it takes for this one little project that
(06:37):
an animal is doing takes you know, weeks, hours, months,
and you know what I mean. And I love that feeling. Yeah,
And it's a good reminder that like growth takes time, right,
like healing takes time. And I think that nature really
offers us that space to see how things are kind
of changing all around you all the time. And going
on a trail that I go on often in the
(06:59):
winter is very different than in the summer, and what
different things you can see and experience in these different
times and so change. I always think I have a
hard time with change, And when I'm really observing nature
in this way that I like to do, I'm reminded
that like change is always happening. It's like always constantly,
constantly changing, and I think it really helps me to
be like it's okay that I'm kind of always changing too,
(07:23):
And I'm reminded that as a human, I kind of
always want to be growing and changing in the same
ways that nature are and kind of just always just
living in the moment, which is really hard to do
in our culture. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah, And I think especially
if you're in a marginalized body, like that kind of
connection is not something that you know, I feel like
(07:45):
I was not allowed to have that, And I was
sort of thinking about the parts of my body that
I feel still are lacking resolution. Right, I'm like, Okay,
I can reclaim my belly somehow. That felt really easy,
but there's these other things because other parts, like for
arms or my inner thighs, where I'm like, this is
still bugging me after you know, so many years of
(08:05):
doing this work. And I sort of was like, I
was like, what tool do I need to develop in
order to kind of work through some of this. And
I actually was like nature, I decided to just go
out to the park and be like, hey, is it
possible that there's a part that part of me is
mirrored in nature? And I'm like, of course the answer
is yes, right, And so what I did was I
(08:26):
was like, Okay, let's look for inner thighs today in nature.
And because I mean I have I have case scars,
I have like discoloration all the things right from like
years of chubb rub. And so I went out and
I was like, oh, my goodness, that tree is the
same shade of my inner thighs. That tree right there,
that plant like has these kinds of like little ripples
that look exactly my guys do when I like cross
(08:48):
my legs or when I like, you know, sit down
criss cross apple sauce um, and like that those like
pores that I have that are somehow like you know,
carrying like so many extra hairs than any other poor
that it looks like this little cactus pad has like
multiple follicle little little pores. And so anyway, it's like
I love that experience of just being like, yeah, go
(09:09):
out in nature. Every single part of your body, whether
it's socially acceptable quote I quote or not is there.
I totally agree with you. And I see my fat
body reflected in nature all the time, especially on the beach.
Like when I'm on the beach, I see stretch marks
all the time. And I feel like stretch marks is
something that you know, we're taught that we shouldn't have
(09:29):
and that we should try to eradicate with whatever lotions
and all the things that capitalism can sell to us, essentially,
And I saw it yesterday actually, just like these the
way the water and the wind sort of makes these
little ridges and it's beautiful, like it is gorgeous, And
every time I see them, just like like it takes
my breath away in this really unexpected way, and I
(09:51):
always take a photo of it, and I usually posted
on the Factors Hiking Instagram because I'm like people should
see this, like look at these stretch marks on the beach,
Like no one would look at these stretch marks on
the beach and say, oh, like you know, let's get
rid of those, or let's eradicate stretch marks on the beach.
It's beautiful and we can embrace our bodies in that
same way. With how they're reflected in nature, Like, there's
(10:11):
nothing wrong with our bodies having dimples and you know,
cellulite and stretch marks and discoloration or whatever we want
to say it is on our bodies that we don't like, right,
it doesn't have to be a bad thing. We can
reframe the things that we've been programmed to think about
the way our bodies are, you know. And I think
(10:31):
just you know, I love, you know, taking photos of
myself next to these spaces because it really reminds me
of that reflection and it's beautiful. It really is beautiful. Yeah,
I mean absolutely. I mean I'm curious if if you
could talk a little bit about the messages that you
(10:52):
were receiving that you needed healing from that hiking ended
up becoming like a medicine or a bomb. Four. I
mean absolutely. I was as a kid, I was a
dancer and a gymnast, and I was in track and field,
and I really loved these movement spaces. And I consider
(11:13):
what happened to me in these fitness spaces to be
a trauma and like a source of shame about my
body because I was always the last person, you know,
and we had to do like the running the mile
in gym class. I was always the last person, and
I remember pushing myself and pushing myself and doing the
best that I could, but being like you know, talked
(11:35):
down to or shamed or told that it was not
good and not right. And I just thought, like, how
can that not be good? I really did my best.
I wasn't like not trying to do my best, and
it was still put down and it really instilled this
feeling of like I'm not good enough, like in the
eyes of my gymnast or my dance instructor or you know,
(11:58):
the track and field coaches, like I'm not good enough.
And I really internalize that, honestly, I really did. And
it's really like connecting with other people who are doing
things that you have maybe that scene a fat person do,
so like for me, it was like connecting with people
who are like scuba divers and competitive bicycle riders and
(12:18):
they're fat and like that to me be like, what,
so we can really do? You know, people can do
whatever they want. And to really see that and to
see how people are sort of changing that narrative of
like who is a hiker? It can be anyone, you know,
It's not just like this thin white dude in an
(12:38):
ARII ad like, it's it's anyone who wants to have
that experience and do that activity. So that's really how
I've been able to like turn this like trauma fitness
from my childhood into a healing space from that honestly,
and I know that it's helped others as well, and
so like it's honestly such a yef Like I feel like,
(13:01):
who am I to be the person to do this work?
You know, I am no expert. I just am like
some weirdo who likes to pet moss and you know,
hates diet culture and all the shame that it, you know,
gives to us. So I love that loves moss hates
diet culture. That's right. I just put that on a
(13:24):
T shirt. You should you should have been. It's really good.
I'm thinking about, like, you know, for that transition from
that kid who is sort of learning and internalizing shame
to the person who is reclaiming nature and hiking. You know,
how did the repair the shift in that relationship? How
(13:45):
did that happen? Oh? Man? Ill? So I feel like
it took me a long time to get where I
am now, So yeah, as a kid, I had this
trauma fitness, and then as a teenager I started really
learning about feminism. And I remember the first time I
ever saw the word fat being used in a non
derogatory way was this zine called Fats, which is now
(14:09):
a book by Marilyn Juan, And it really was like
really like questioning beauty standards as a teenager. I think
really helped me because I had my dad was in
the modeling industry. He worked as a modeling agent in Chicago,
and that was like really a bizarre you know. I
would meet people who were models, who were in magazines
and commercials and things at the time, and they were teenagers.
(14:30):
They were like my age, so like having that experience
of like being in that world and being just like
I was a weird teenager. I dressed really weird and
I definitely was called the freak of my high school.
And my twenties was like that too, you know, and
it really did it really just did take a long
time of me not connecting to my body, to be honest.
It was really like this thing is here and I
(14:52):
wasn't really like in my body, and I think it
was more just like really appreciating what my body is
and what my body does is for me. And you know,
I think about you, Virgie often when I think about
that storytell about how you were a little kid and
you're just like shaking your whole body and how that
felt so good to you and it made you so happy,
(15:13):
And like, I think about that often because it's really
just like this freedom just to like be in your body,
and I definitely lost that for twenty years, you know,
And it was like I was like in my late
thirties and I'm in my early forties now that I
found hiking and I could really get back to that
place of like, yeah, fuck beauty standards first of all,
and then how can I be in my body without
(15:37):
rejecting in it. It's like when those thoughts come up,
it's really like telling myself a different story. So it's like, Okay,
I'm feeling a little bit a shame because I'm breathing
heavy on this hike, or I'm kind of sweaty, and
like it seems like the rest of the group's kind
of going a little faster. And you know, that stuff
comes up from when I was a kid of like
not being good enough and I really just tell myself
(15:58):
these like different things, like just be like, um, you're
doing great. I just say you're doing great and like
that sometimes is enough. Or I'll just be like you're
doing great, You're perfect the way you are, like you know,
all these kind of like silly affirmations, but they really
do help me to stop the the shame spiral that
can sometimes happen. You know, yes, yes, I'm like I'm
(16:20):
just thinking. My my therapist, no matter how terrible anything
I tell him, he's like good awareness, virgie. You know,
it's like I hate awareness is terrible. He's like great awareness.
Like so I mean like idle thing, Yes, I hate this.
I feel terrible. I am being triggered in a great
(16:42):
awareness Like that's the very we can always say that
to ourselves. Right, this sucks right now. And guess what,
it's not going to always feel sucky, but it sucks
right now, right. I think acknowledging our feelings on things
is the first step for sure, And then step could
be like, you know, this sucks and you're doing great,
(17:04):
like you're doing great in a sucky situation, and because
we don't, you know, like the I don't want to
be like toxic positivity, where like I have to be
positive all the time. Either. I don't put that pressure
on myself, but I think it is important for me
to sort of like know that this is not my thought,
Like this shame is not my own thought. Like I'm
way too rebellious to shame myself, Like I am still
(17:27):
that teenage feminist zine maker. I do not need to
like you know, perpetuate those ideas within myself. But you know,
sometimes it's hard and I have to like, you know,
really just be in that be in that feeling of
like I'm having a lot of shame and you know
that's also okay, and just reminding myself it's not going
(17:48):
to always feel that way. So can you tell me,
like what is factorals hiking and how did you come
(18:10):
up with this idea? So fact orls Psyking is a
community organization that I started in twenty fifteen, and it
really started as an Instagram account and I was documenting,
you know, places I was hiking or places like camped
or traveled to and really just as a way for
people to see fat people in nature. And from there
(18:34):
it led to leading group hikes, which I honestly had
no idea how to do when I first started, and
then it led to chapters all over the country and
there's a few outside of the US as well, just
to have that representation for people wherever they are, you know,
because it's important to have representation, and it's important to
be with a group that you feel is going to
(18:56):
celebrate who you are, whoever that is, because we welcome
people of all sizes and all genders. Even though our
name is Fact Girls Hiking. I just want marginalized people
in general just to be able to experience that same
healing space that I've found for myself. And so that's
really like the offering of factorls. Hiking is a healing
space to connect with themselves, with nature and with other
(19:16):
people in the community who you know, come together. Yes, okay,
So I mean pretty much all of us grow up
essentially understanding hiking as a calorie burning exercise activity. I mean,
I think a lot of us are socialized unfortunately to
(19:36):
see nature almost like an outdoor gym. And I'm wondering,
right like, as you're doing this work to create access
and to create space for healing, what does it look
like to redefine hiking, To redefine the outdoors for the
work that you're doing. Oh, it's so important to redefine
hiking because there's definitely this gate keeping that happens than
(20:00):
the outdoor industry of like what is a hike? And
to me, a hike is anytime you're moving in nature
and you don't even have to do a hike, Like
you can just sit and be in nature intentionally. You
can sit in your yard in a chair, you can
sit on a blanket in a space that is green
and just really connect to whatever the nature is around you.
It doesn't have to be ten miles to constitute a hike.
(20:23):
And this is how I'm reframing it to my community
and in my work, that we can make up the
rules of what a hike is for us. And so
when I lead a group hike, it's really like inviting
people into this space that's very intentional. So we have
community guidelines where we will have absolutely no weight loss
or diet talk in this space online or in real life,
(20:45):
you know, And that can be kind of tricky because
we're all sort of, you know, given this information from
our culture and from society that as fat people we
should be wanting to lose weight and make ourselves smaller
to be more acceptable. And I don't leave that and
I don't subscribe to that. And I really invite people
to be like, whatever you need on a hike, if
(21:06):
it's a group hike or if you're by yourself, you
could One of my mottos is go at your own pace.
Like I can't go at the same pace as other people.
I have chronic pain, and that's fine, and so I
go at the pace that feels good for me. And
I always lead group hikes from behind, and for me,
the slowest people, which is me included, are the people
setting the pace of each group hike. And I always
(21:28):
reassure people that the slowest people in the group are
going to get the most support from the hike leaders.
And that's how it should be. Yes, no fatty left behind.
You know, we don't have to exclude people in that way.
I mean, I'm so glad you brought up no fatty
left behind. Honestly, that's one of my favorites. That is
my favorite of fact roles hiking guidelines is that you
(21:51):
that you lead from the rear. And let's discuss I
mean for people, I mean the rear of a hike
is a specific space when you're in a fat body
or in a body that doesn't move at the same
speed as what's considered maybe normal or whatever, right, which
is like a really horrible feeling. Yeah. I've heard so
(22:12):
many terrible stories from people who have gone on like
more traditional kind of group hikes and have been left behind,
and I just think that is shitty. As a leader,
you should not be leaving people behind. It's unsafe, it's
not cool, and you know, honestly fuck those people who
leave anyone behind. And the other thing is how fact
Rol's hiking is different is you decide what the endpoint
(22:33):
of your hike is. Your destination is wherever you end up,
and that is amazing and perfect and I will celebrate
that with you because you did that. Like I remember
I was leading a hike in in New York and
there was like a creek crossing and it had rained
a bunch recently, so it was like a pretty intense
creek crossing, even for me, and I'm like fine with that.
(22:54):
So there's several people on the hike that were like, yeah,
I don't really want to keep going, I don't want
to go over that creek. And I was like I
don't want to eat. And so some people kept going
and some of us stayed back and just kind of
sat on a tree log and talked about fat phobia
in the forest and that was like an it was
an amazing experience. And so it's an invitation for people
(23:15):
to really like listen to their bodies and listen to
their needs and advocate for their needs. And that's what
Factor's taking. In the spaces that I create with Factor's taking,
that's what it's about, is you are safe to advocate
your needs. Yes, yes, I mean I love this one
hundred percent. I mean I think all of that, that
freedom and that autonomy, it's so healing, you know, because
(23:37):
I think the idea, right again with the historical connection
of hiking in nature with exercise, the idea is it
should feel kind of miserable one hundred percent of the time.
And I think that, you know, like it just resisting
that is amazing. So I want I want to talk
about community. So being on the trail alone is one thing,
but being a trail leader bringing people along into your
(23:59):
vision for what's possible for our relationship to hiking to nature,
to our bodies. What have you learned from making the
fact girls hiking community. I have learned so much about
myself and my own insecurities as a leader. When I
first started leading group hikes, I wanted to be on
(24:19):
the top of a mountain with a group of fat people,
and I thought, God, that would be so epic, you know,
And so I led a hike where we were climbing
this pretty challenging trail near Portland, and you know what,
most of us were miserable and it wasn't like the
most fun experience. And most of us made it to
the top, and you know, it was like not as exciting,
(24:40):
not as great as I thought it would be, to
be honest, and so like, what I've learned is we
don't need to stand on top of a mountain together
to be epic and empowered and inspired. We can sails.
We can just be wherever we are, like in nature together.
(25:01):
And really my focus more now is having accessible spaces,
really like having spaces where wheelchair users will be able
to access the trail or you know, people who can't
go up in elevation, whatever people's needs are, Like, I
want to make sure that anyone who wants to come
on a hike has a space where we can be
seen and celebrated and everyone should have that space, you know, yes, Okay, So, Summer,
(25:26):
if you had one tool, if you had to pick
one tool that you'd give to our Rebel Eaters Club
listeners to help them reconnect with nature, to use nature,
to reconnect to their body, what would it be. So
the tool that I think is really important is to
connect to nature. You don't have to hike. You can
literally be inside your home. You can, you know, look
(25:48):
at your plant. You can touch the leaves of your plant,
you can learn more about your plant. Right. You can
go outside. You can sit on a chair in your
yard or in a park and just be observing what's
going on around you in the natural world. You don't
have to go on a hike. So I think it's
really just like changing the mindset of what a hike is.
I often am just sitting in my chair on the beach,
(26:11):
and that is totally valid and it's really like a
way to heal the wounds of diet culture for me.
I love this so much, Summer, Thank you so much
for being on Rebel Eaters Club. Thank you for having me. Virgie.
(26:48):
Whether you're right to reclaim hiking or not no judgment.
Some are laid out the revolutionary foundation for reimagining who
is in the outdoors and what is possible when it
comes to how we relate to nature our bodies. I
love a good reframe. If you have thoughts on this conversation,
or what makes a good trail snack, or just want
to say hi, reach out DM me on social media
(27:11):
at Virgie Tovar, DM our producers at Transmitter Pods, or
send us an email at Rebel Eaters Club at gmail
dot com. Rebel Eaters Club is brought to you by
Transmitter Media. This episode was written and produced by Isabelle Carter.
Sarah Knicks is Transmitters executive editor. Wilson Sarah is our
managing producer, Greta Khan is our executive producer, and I'm
(27:33):
your host, Virgie Tovar. Rick Kwan is our mix engineer.
And thanks to Taka Yasuzawa who wrote some of the
music we use in the show. If you love Rebel
Eaters Club, tell your friends and share the love by
writing a review on your favorite podcast app. See you
next week.
From Transmitter Media. This is Rebel Eaters Club and I'm
your host, Virgie Tovar. Today we're going to be talking
about something super fun, super exciting, and a little bit sweaty.
It's hiking. Joining me is Summer Mashad's Good Summer is
the founder of Fact Girls Hiking, a collective for all
(00:23):
types of people and all types of bodies to get
excited about nature and movement. She's also the author of
a new book, also called Fact Girls Hiking, True to
Form Summer called in from a yurt in rural Oregon,
surrounded by the sounds of wind and dogs and the
occasional truck. Summer. Welcome to Rebel Eaters Club. Thank you
(00:45):
for having me, Virgie. I'm super excited to be talking
to you. Me too, Me two same Okay. So, in
Rebel Eaters Club sort of fashion or tradition, we start
with a snack. Do you want to tell us what
a snack Summer? Yes? So, my favorite snack for a
very long time, I think, since I was a child,
(01:06):
is popcorn. I love popcorn, MiG grape popcorn with toppings.
I love doing popcorn on the stove, um with oil
and let it pop and that's very fun and I
like to put um. Today I have Micway popcorn because
you know it's early, and I put a little parmesan
cheese on it. Yes, I mean I I also made
(01:26):
my grape popcorn. We have this death Star popcorn maker,
and I was like, I just don't have time to
pull it out. But it's so cool. It's like this
weird Star Wars e ball that shoots out popcorn. M okay,
so I'm going to count down from three ready three
to one? Chop Podgy. It's so delicious. I especially have
(01:54):
to say my favorite part of Mike. I mean, I
love the popcorn kernels when they're popped, but I actually
love the half popped kernels at the bottom of the
bag or the bowl whatever you have. They're just like
popped open just a tiny bit and they're crunchy. Oh.
I used to fight over them with my siblings when
I was a kid, Like I love the fat popped
(02:15):
blowing my mind a little bit because like, I feel
like those are sort of I don't know, I don't know.
I think I feel like those kernels are controversial territory.
I'm like, I feel like it there would be untouchable kernels,
And so I'm like, are we reclaiming the bottom kernels?
Are we doing this? I have to be just like
popped open, just a tiny bit, not the ones that
are unpopped, you know, just a tiny pop. And oh
(02:35):
it's like I don't know. Okay, I'm gonna have to
try this. I'm gonna try acquired taste maybe yeah, yeah, Okay,
I'm doing it though, m Okay, so tell me. I mean,
so in your new book, you write, I didn't know
my body's strength and resilience until I put myself in
situations where I had to rely on my intuition, knowledge
and creative problem solving to get my fat body from
(02:59):
the trailhead, through the woods and to the destination. I mean,
I love that this idea of hiking is something that
can strengthen intuition, that can connect us to our problem
solving abilities. Right, um, And so I guess this leads
me to the question, right, when hiking goes right, what
(03:20):
does it do for you? What does it do for
a person? I think it's empowering. I think it really
is empowering, and I've I've had lots of other people
say the same thing. It's really good for your mental
health to be in nature like that, Like there's it's
like scientifically proven, there's been studies done about it, right,
And I think that's amazing that it has that benefit.
(03:42):
And I can really see how it benefits me, and
when I've led group hikes, how it benefits other people,
how they can just slow down, go at the pace
that feels comfortable for them. And really, you know, pet
the moss, look at a leaf, see how the lights
coming through the tree. Is just what does that feel like?
And what is that experience going to be like? To
(04:05):
be really in nature in that way, and especially when
it's warm enough to have bare feet on the ground,
there's something about like I am part of this earth
and the earth is part of me, and it makes
me feel like insignificant. It really does. It really is
(04:27):
like this healing space where I can be like I
am just being, I am just existing, I'm in this
world and I definitely feel that that. You know, it's
really like nurturing my inner child to like, you know,
walk on a log. And but yesterday I did a
little walk and there's a bay and I was it
was low tide, so I was walking in the bay
and there's all this drift logs and I would found
(04:49):
some sticks and then I'm just like drawing in the sand.
And it's just such a simple thing, right, just finding
a cool stick and drawing in the sand. And you
know there's no point to it, but it feels good.
And I think we all need that, we all need
to like just play. Really, it's just play. Yeah. I
mean when you say it makes you feel insignificant, I
(05:10):
completely understand that. I mean, like, I live really close
to the Pacific Ocean, like walking distance, and I notice
on days where my problems or my trauma start to
feel massive, the ocean is always there to remind me
of the scale, the scale of time, the scale of nature.
(05:31):
And it can be so liberating to be reminded of
this thing that can be so pressing in the moment,
like maybe a deadline, maybe that thing that you messed
up on at work or whatever, and then you go
into nature and you see the enormity and the incredibleness
of it and you're reminding I think the other thing
that I love about nature is time is different in nature.
(05:54):
And I sort of feel like, you know, I didn't
come up with this, Actually, some other scholars did, but
it's called that time. It's also like queer time or
people of color time, right, this idea that like there
are these sort of alternative ways, the alternative speeds of
life that are possible, right, because we're sort of told
there's this one way to take time, like everything should
(06:16):
be as fast as possible, as pragmatic or as practical
as possible. But nature is actually on a totally different
It's not on the deadline system. It's on its own thing.
And I think that's one of the most healing things
to me about nature is being like, wow, like the
time it takes for one single leaf to grow, the
time that it takes for this one little project that
(06:37):
an animal is doing takes you know, weeks, hours, months,
and you know what I mean. And I love that feeling. Yeah,
And it's a good reminder that like growth takes time, right,
like healing takes time. And I think that nature really
offers us that space to see how things are kind
of changing all around you all the time. And going
on a trail that I go on often in the
(06:59):
winter is very different than in the summer, and what
different things you can see and experience in these different
times and so change. I always think I have a
hard time with change, And when I'm really observing nature
in this way that I like to do, I'm reminded
that like change is always happening. It's like always constantly,
constantly changing, and I think it really helps me to
be like it's okay that I'm kind of always changing too,
(07:23):
And I'm reminded that as a human, I kind of
always want to be growing and changing in the same
ways that nature are and kind of just always just
living in the moment, which is really hard to do
in our culture. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah, And I think especially
if you're in a marginalized body, like that kind of
connection is not something that you know, I feel like
(07:45):
I was not allowed to have that, And I was
sort of thinking about the parts of my body that
I feel still are lacking resolution. Right, I'm like, Okay,
I can reclaim my belly somehow. That felt really easy,
but there's these other things because other parts, like for
arms or my inner thighs, where I'm like, this is
still bugging me after you know, so many years of
(08:05):
doing this work. And I sort of was like, I
was like, what tool do I need to develop in
order to kind of work through some of this. And
I actually was like nature, I decided to just go
out to the park and be like, hey, is it
possible that there's a part that part of me is
mirrored in nature? And I'm like, of course the answer
is yes, right, And so what I did was I
(08:26):
was like, Okay, let's look for inner thighs today in nature.
And because I mean I have I have case scars,
I have like discoloration all the things right from like
years of chubb rub. And so I went out and
I was like, oh, my goodness, that tree is the
same shade of my inner thighs. That tree right there,
that plant like has these kinds of like little ripples
that look exactly my guys do when I like cross
(08:48):
my legs or when I like, you know, sit down
criss cross apple sauce um, and like that those like
pores that I have that are somehow like you know,
carrying like so many extra hairs than any other poor
that it looks like this little cactus pad has like
multiple follicle little little pores. And so anyway, it's like
I love that experience of just being like, yeah, go
(09:09):
out in nature. Every single part of your body, whether
it's socially acceptable quote I quote or not is there.
I totally agree with you. And I see my fat
body reflected in nature all the time, especially on the beach.
Like when I'm on the beach, I see stretch marks
all the time. And I feel like stretch marks is
something that you know, we're taught that we shouldn't have
(09:29):
and that we should try to eradicate with whatever lotions
and all the things that capitalism can sell to us, essentially,
And I saw it yesterday actually, just like these the
way the water and the wind sort of makes these
little ridges and it's beautiful, like it is gorgeous, And
every time I see them, just like like it takes
my breath away in this really unexpected way, and I
(09:51):
always take a photo of it, and I usually posted
on the Factors Hiking Instagram because I'm like people should
see this, like look at these stretch marks on the beach,
Like no one would look at these stretch marks on
the beach and say, oh, like you know, let's get
rid of those, or let's eradicate stretch marks on the beach.
It's beautiful and we can embrace our bodies in that
same way. With how they're reflected in nature, Like, there's
(10:11):
nothing wrong with our bodies having dimples and you know,
cellulite and stretch marks and discoloration or whatever we want
to say it is on our bodies that we don't like, right,
it doesn't have to be a bad thing. We can
reframe the things that we've been programmed to think about
the way our bodies are, you know. And I think
(10:31):
just you know, I love, you know, taking photos of
myself next to these spaces because it really reminds me
of that reflection and it's beautiful. It really is beautiful. Yeah,
I mean absolutely. I mean I'm curious if if you
could talk a little bit about the messages that you
(10:52):
were receiving that you needed healing from that hiking ended
up becoming like a medicine or a bomb. Four. I
mean absolutely. I was as a kid, I was a
dancer and a gymnast, and I was in track and field,
and I really loved these movement spaces. And I consider
(11:13):
what happened to me in these fitness spaces to be
a trauma and like a source of shame about my
body because I was always the last person, you know,
and we had to do like the running the mile
in gym class. I was always the last person, and
I remember pushing myself and pushing myself and doing the
best that I could, but being like you know, talked
(11:35):
down to or shamed or told that it was not
good and not right. And I just thought, like, how
can that not be good? I really did my best.
I wasn't like not trying to do my best, and
it was still put down and it really instilled this
feeling of like I'm not good enough, like in the
eyes of my gymnast or my dance instructor or you know,
(11:58):
the track and field coaches, like I'm not good enough.
And I really internalize that, honestly, I really did. And
it's really like connecting with other people who are doing
things that you have maybe that scene a fat person do,
so like for me, it was like connecting with people
who are like scuba divers and competitive bicycle riders and
(12:18):
they're fat and like that to me be like, what,
so we can really do? You know, people can do
whatever they want. And to really see that and to
see how people are sort of changing that narrative of
like who is a hiker? It can be anyone, you know,
It's not just like this thin white dude in an
(12:38):
ARII ad like, it's it's anyone who wants to have
that experience and do that activity. So that's really how
I've been able to like turn this like trauma fitness
from my childhood into a healing space from that honestly,
and I know that it's helped others as well, and
so like it's honestly such a yef Like I feel like,
(13:01):
who am I to be the person to do this work?
You know, I am no expert. I just am like
some weirdo who likes to pet moss and you know,
hates diet culture and all the shame that it, you know,
gives to us. So I love that loves moss hates
diet culture. That's right. I just put that on a
(13:24):
T shirt. You should you should have been. It's really good.
I'm thinking about, like, you know, for that transition from
that kid who is sort of learning and internalizing shame
to the person who is reclaiming nature and hiking. You know,
how did the repair the shift in that relationship? How
(13:45):
did that happen? Oh? Man? Ill? So I feel like
it took me a long time to get where I
am now, So yeah, as a kid, I had this
trauma fitness, and then as a teenager I started really
learning about feminism. And I remember the first time I
ever saw the word fat being used in a non
derogatory way was this zine called Fats, which is now
(14:09):
a book by Marilyn Juan, And it really was like
really like questioning beauty standards as a teenager. I think
really helped me because I had my dad was in
the modeling industry. He worked as a modeling agent in Chicago,
and that was like really a bizarre you know. I
would meet people who were models, who were in magazines
and commercials and things at the time, and they were teenagers.
(14:30):
They were like my age, so like having that experience
of like being in that world and being just like
I was a weird teenager. I dressed really weird and
I definitely was called the freak of my high school.
And my twenties was like that too, you know, and
it really did it really just did take a long
time of me not connecting to my body, to be honest.
It was really like this thing is here and I
(14:52):
wasn't really like in my body, and I think it
was more just like really appreciating what my body is
and what my body does is for me. And you know,
I think about you, Virgie often when I think about
that storytell about how you were a little kid and
you're just like shaking your whole body and how that
felt so good to you and it made you so happy,
(15:13):
And like, I think about that often because it's really
just like this freedom just to like be in your body,
and I definitely lost that for twenty years, you know,
And it was like I was like in my late
thirties and I'm in my early forties now that I
found hiking and I could really get back to that
place of like, yeah, fuck beauty standards first of all,
and then how can I be in my body without
(15:37):
rejecting in it. It's like when those thoughts come up,
it's really like telling myself a different story. So it's like, Okay,
I'm feeling a little bit a shame because I'm breathing
heavy on this hike, or I'm kind of sweaty, and
like it seems like the rest of the group's kind
of going a little faster. And you know, that stuff
comes up from when I was a kid of like
not being good enough and I really just tell myself
(15:58):
these like different things, like just be like, um, you're
doing great. I just say you're doing great and like
that sometimes is enough. Or I'll just be like you're
doing great, You're perfect the way you are, like you know,
all these kind of like silly affirmations, but they really
do help me to stop the the shame spiral that
can sometimes happen. You know, yes, yes, I'm like I'm
(16:20):
just thinking. My my therapist, no matter how terrible anything
I tell him, he's like good awareness, virgie. You know,
it's like I hate awareness is terrible. He's like great awareness.
Like so I mean like idle thing, Yes, I hate this.
I feel terrible. I am being triggered in a great
(16:42):
awareness Like that's the very we can always say that
to ourselves. Right, this sucks right now. And guess what,
it's not going to always feel sucky, but it sucks
right now, right. I think acknowledging our feelings on things
is the first step for sure, And then step could
be like, you know, this sucks and you're doing great,
(17:04):
like you're doing great in a sucky situation, and because
we don't, you know, like the I don't want to
be like toxic positivity, where like I have to be
positive all the time. Either. I don't put that pressure
on myself, but I think it is important for me
to sort of like know that this is not my thought,
Like this shame is not my own thought. Like I'm
way too rebellious to shame myself, Like I am still
(17:27):
that teenage feminist zine maker. I do not need to
like you know, perpetuate those ideas within myself. But you know,
sometimes it's hard and I have to like, you know,
really just be in that be in that feeling of
like I'm having a lot of shame and you know
that's also okay, and just reminding myself it's not going
(17:48):
to always feel that way. So can you tell me,
like what is factorals hiking and how did you come
(18:10):
up with this idea? So fact orls Psyking is a
community organization that I started in twenty fifteen, and it
really started as an Instagram account and I was documenting,
you know, places I was hiking or places like camped
or traveled to and really just as a way for
people to see fat people in nature. And from there
(18:34):
it led to leading group hikes, which I honestly had
no idea how to do when I first started, and
then it led to chapters all over the country and
there's a few outside of the US as well, just
to have that representation for people wherever they are, you know,
because it's important to have representation, and it's important to
be with a group that you feel is going to
(18:56):
celebrate who you are, whoever that is, because we welcome
people of all sizes and all genders. Even though our
name is Fact Girls Hiking. I just want marginalized people
in general just to be able to experience that same
healing space that I've found for myself. And so that's
really like the offering of factorls. Hiking is a healing
space to connect with themselves, with nature and with other
(19:16):
people in the community who you know, come together. Yes, okay,
So I mean pretty much all of us grow up
essentially understanding hiking as a calorie burning exercise activity. I mean,
I think a lot of us are socialized unfortunately to
(19:36):
see nature almost like an outdoor gym. And I'm wondering,
right like, as you're doing this work to create access
and to create space for healing, what does it look
like to redefine hiking, To redefine the outdoors for the
work that you're doing. Oh, it's so important to redefine
hiking because there's definitely this gate keeping that happens than
(20:00):
the outdoor industry of like what is a hike? And
to me, a hike is anytime you're moving in nature
and you don't even have to do a hike, Like
you can just sit and be in nature intentionally. You
can sit in your yard in a chair, you can
sit on a blanket in a space that is green
and just really connect to whatever the nature is around you.
It doesn't have to be ten miles to constitute a hike.
(20:23):
And this is how I'm reframing it to my community
and in my work, that we can make up the
rules of what a hike is for us. And so
when I lead a group hike, it's really like inviting
people into this space that's very intentional. So we have
community guidelines where we will have absolutely no weight loss
or diet talk in this space online or in real life,
(20:45):
you know, And that can be kind of tricky because
we're all sort of, you know, given this information from
our culture and from society that as fat people we
should be wanting to lose weight and make ourselves smaller
to be more acceptable. And I don't leave that and
I don't subscribe to that. And I really invite people
to be like, whatever you need on a hike, if
(21:06):
it's a group hike or if you're by yourself, you
could One of my mottos is go at your own pace.
Like I can't go at the same pace as other people.
I have chronic pain, and that's fine, and so I
go at the pace that feels good for me. And
I always lead group hikes from behind, and for me,
the slowest people, which is me included, are the people
setting the pace of each group hike. And I always
(21:28):
reassure people that the slowest people in the group are
going to get the most support from the hike leaders.
And that's how it should be. Yes, no fatty left behind.
You know, we don't have to exclude people in that way.
I mean, I'm so glad you brought up no fatty
left behind. Honestly, that's one of my favorites. That is
my favorite of fact roles hiking guidelines is that you
(21:51):
that you lead from the rear. And let's discuss I
mean for people, I mean the rear of a hike
is a specific space when you're in a fat body
or in a body that doesn't move at the same
speed as what's considered maybe normal or whatever, right, which
is like a really horrible feeling. Yeah. I've heard so
(22:12):
many terrible stories from people who have gone on like
more traditional kind of group hikes and have been left behind,
and I just think that is shitty. As a leader,
you should not be leaving people behind. It's unsafe, it's
not cool, and you know, honestly fuck those people who
leave anyone behind. And the other thing is how fact
Rol's hiking is different is you decide what the endpoint
(22:33):
of your hike is. Your destination is wherever you end up,
and that is amazing and perfect and I will celebrate
that with you because you did that. Like I remember
I was leading a hike in in New York and
there was like a creek crossing and it had rained
a bunch recently, so it was like a pretty intense
creek crossing, even for me, and I'm like fine with that.
(22:54):
So there's several people on the hike that were like, yeah,
I don't really want to keep going, I don't want
to go over that creek. And I was like I
don't want to eat. And so some people kept going
and some of us stayed back and just kind of
sat on a tree log and talked about fat phobia
in the forest and that was like an it was
an amazing experience. And so it's an invitation for people
(23:15):
to really like listen to their bodies and listen to
their needs and advocate for their needs. And that's what
Factor's taking. In the spaces that I create with Factor's taking,
that's what it's about, is you are safe to advocate
your needs. Yes, yes, I mean I love this one
hundred percent. I mean I think all of that, that
freedom and that autonomy, it's so healing, you know, because
(23:37):
I think the idea, right again with the historical connection
of hiking in nature with exercise, the idea is it
should feel kind of miserable one hundred percent of the time.
And I think that, you know, like it just resisting
that is amazing. So I want I want to talk
about community. So being on the trail alone is one thing,
but being a trail leader bringing people along into your
(23:59):
vision for what's possible for our relationship to hiking to nature,
to our bodies. What have you learned from making the
fact girls hiking community. I have learned so much about
myself and my own insecurities as a leader. When I
first started leading group hikes, I wanted to be on
(24:19):
the top of a mountain with a group of fat people,
and I thought, God, that would be so epic, you know,
And so I led a hike where we were climbing
this pretty challenging trail near Portland, and you know what,
most of us were miserable and it wasn't like the
most fun experience. And most of us made it to
the top, and you know, it was like not as exciting,
(24:40):
not as great as I thought it would be, to
be honest, and so like, what I've learned is we
don't need to stand on top of a mountain together
to be epic and empowered and inspired. We can sails.
We can just be wherever we are, like in nature together.
(25:01):
And really my focus more now is having accessible spaces,
really like having spaces where wheelchair users will be able
to access the trail or you know, people who can't
go up in elevation, whatever people's needs are, Like, I
want to make sure that anyone who wants to come
on a hike has a space where we can be
seen and celebrated and everyone should have that space, you know, yes, Okay, So, Summer,
(25:26):
if you had one tool, if you had to pick
one tool that you'd give to our Rebel Eaters Club
listeners to help them reconnect with nature, to use nature,
to reconnect to their body, what would it be. So
the tool that I think is really important is to
connect to nature. You don't have to hike. You can
literally be inside your home. You can, you know, look
(25:48):
at your plant. You can touch the leaves of your plant,
you can learn more about your plant. Right. You can
go outside. You can sit on a chair in your
yard or in a park and just be observing what's
going on around you in the natural world. You don't
have to go on a hike. So I think it's
really just like changing the mindset of what a hike is.
I often am just sitting in my chair on the beach,
(26:11):
and that is totally valid and it's really like a
way to heal the wounds of diet culture for me.
I love this so much, Summer, Thank you so much
for being on Rebel Eaters Club. Thank you for having me. Virgie.
(26:48):
Whether you're right to reclaim hiking or not no judgment.
Some are laid out the revolutionary foundation for reimagining who
is in the outdoors and what is possible when it
comes to how we relate to nature our bodies. I
love a good reframe. If you have thoughts on this conversation,
or what makes a good trail snack, or just want
to say hi, reach out DM me on social media
(27:11):
at Virgie Tovar, DM our producers at Transmitter Pods, or
send us an email at Rebel Eaters Club at gmail
dot com. Rebel Eaters Club is brought to you by
Transmitter Media. This episode was written and produced by Isabelle Carter.
Sarah Knicks is Transmitters executive editor. Wilson Sarah is our
managing producer, Greta Khan is our executive producer, and I'm
(27:33):
your host, Virgie Tovar. Rick Kwan is our mix engineer.
And thanks to Taka Yasuzawa who wrote some of the
music we use in the show. If you love Rebel
Eaters Club, tell your friends and share the love by
writing a review on your favorite podcast app. See you
next week.
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