January 5, 2021 • 34 mins
Are you struggling with shame, guilt, fear or self-doubt? World-renowned expert Brené Brown joins the table to help! Willow admits what it felt like to be shamed by her parents, and Jada has a revelation about her codependency
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Red Table Talk Podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
Facebook watch show in audio, produced by Westbrook Audio and
I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
on Apple Podcast. The Smith household has been buzzing on
this Red Table Talk. I'm with you in the pain
(00:21):
up coming. Oh my god, like I never even saw
it that way. I forgive you real talk with the
brilliant Renee Brown. If you're not want to talk about this,
I'm gonna piss you off. Afraid, five best selling books,
over a hundred million views for her groundbreaking talks. That
(00:41):
is it. My mind was blown. She has spent two
decades studying shame, guilt, and vulnerability. Find out how they
may be holding you back. This is about you, This
is about who you want to be. This is what's
so powerful about your show. You would never have talked
to about this fifty years ago. All right, this is
(01:11):
a special one, lady. I've got our girl, Renee Brown,
finally coming. We've been trying to have Burnee forever. I'm
so excited. Yeah, she's gonna be a good one. She's amazing. Yeah.
For me, it's perfect timing. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeahs have
been going on in game's life. You need a little
(01:31):
assistance here. Okay, all right, let's walk to the same ladies.
My whole household is buzzing. Okay. We have been looking
forward to this red table for a long time. Our
special guest is beloved and brilliant, and we've been writing
our burning questions for her all weeking. Welcome, Berne, Welcome.
(01:58):
First of all, thank you for coming. I cannot tell
you the Smith household love has been buzzing. I think
if let me tell you will get so excited. Last
night when I told him that you were, I guess
she's coming here. He wanted me to tell you that
he's such a big fan and he loves the story
(02:19):
that you tell about your husband at the lake. Yeah. Man, Yeah,
this sentence that's been floating in my data for years
kept coming to my head, which is the story I'm
telling myself. Yes, my husband was being weird to me
in the lake and it was really long. It was
just kind of this long swim and I had on
a speedo and we were working out and we're both
(02:41):
ex competitive swimmers, and I hadn't worn a speedo in
a lot of years, and I was trying to connect
with him and he kept kind of blowing me off.
And so the story I was making up is that
it was either like, oh my god, she does not
rock a speedo like she did twenty five years and
two kids ago, or she's all And so I just
looked at him and I said, look, the story I'm
(03:02):
telling myself right now is that you think I look
awful or you think I'm old. And it turned out
that he was actually in the middle of a panic
attack on the lake that day. He was having his
own struggles. Appearance and body image are still the number
one shame triggers for women, so when we make up stories,
they're often about that. When I first heard that story,
(03:24):
it was like wow, Like my mind was blown. We
just can't see what the other person is feeling or thinking.
We make up stories, and the stories we make up
are self protective in nature, and that's that's the thing.
That was the person that would have the story in
my head and claim it as true and keep it right,
(03:45):
and I'm making decisions based on it. When I got
the courage to at least be vulnerable enough to talk
about the story in my head. I got to see
the power of vulnerability. We keep on talking about that word.
Is there a simple way for you to just break
(04:05):
down what that V word means? Yes, And there's a
lot of complicated V words, and it's one of the
most complicated words. Ye. So the definition of vulnerability is
the emotion that we experience in times of uncertainty, risk,
and emotional exposure. Examples vulnerability the first date after my divorce,
(04:30):
saying I love you, first, trying to get pregnant after
my second miscarriage. I knew early on in my work
that vulnerability was the birthplace of courage. I knew that
courage didn't exist without it. And so when you think
about what y'all do at red table talk uncertain you
don't know the way the conversation is going to go
(04:51):
totally risk and emotional exposure. Yeah, got him all three,
I'll tell you. But I we we definitely be trying
to practice vulnerability over here. I definitely. I've definitely had
some moments where I've been at this table going what
(05:12):
do I say this? Do I say this? Do I
say When was the last time that you felt like
you were being most vulnerable definitely when I talked about
my self harm. Honestly feel like I lost my sanity
at one Okay, yeah, it was after that whole with
my hair thing and I was kind of like just
(05:32):
in this gray area of like who am I? Like
is there? Like do I have a purpose? And I
was just like plunged into this like black hole and
I was like cutting myself? What cutting yourself? Wet on
my wrist? I mean you can't even see it, but
like there's still a little something there, but like totally
(05:54):
lost my sanity for a moment there. Wow, looking back,
it makes me feel even stronger because so many people
d M me or or talk to me and we're
like wow, like that really helped me about you game?
For me? The one on addiction, there was a power
(06:17):
that God had been thank God had been doing me
through all it, and I just said let go and
surrender so that I could see what he was people.
(06:40):
I can't even get it up, you know. It was
really one where I felt really exposed. Yeah, what about you?
I would say for me, it would be the last
r T we're gonna start with. This is a very
personal journey that became very public. Yes, full blast no,
(07:03):
I I was feeling and just the total breakdown of
any masks that you know, But I was much courage.
I want to put it on the table. Yes, yeah,
I'm so proud of you to be able to see
you and Dad do that. For me, that was like, Okay,
that's real deal. That's real love. Like when you can
(07:25):
be like I'm with you, I'm gonna stand by you
and I'm gonna hold your hand because I love you.
That's what we do and that that's really important. But then,
you know, when I'm talking about all this brune, then
I start thinking about I get real caught up and
have always been kind of overly concerned with what other
(07:46):
people think of me. I've been sober for twenty oh
my god, twenty four years, and a lot of times
I have to literally choose, am I going to choose
use my recovery or am I going to choose making
people I don't even know feel better? And then when
(08:06):
you find a quote and it changes your life, that
it really there was my life before that and my
life after the quote is it's not the critic who counts.
It's not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have
done it better. The credit actually belongs to the man
in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and
dust blood, who strives valiantly, who airs again and again
(08:31):
and again, and who in the end, while I'll change this,
she may know the triumph of high achievement. At least
when she fails, she's daring greatly. That is so powerful,
And it's to me. Three things happen. One, I'm going
to live my life in the arena. I'm going to
(08:52):
be brave with my life, and that means choosing courage
over comfort and pissing some people off sometimes. But I'm
just not here for your purpose. I'm here for mine too.
That quote is everything I've ever learned in twenty years
of research about vulnerability. Vulnerability is not weakness. It's the
courage to show up and be real when you can't
(09:13):
control the outcome or what people think. And then the
last one that really, I think really set me free
in almost a dangerous way. But I love it, I
really love it. Is if you are not in the
arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I'm not interested
in your feedback. That right there, it's like, don't you
(09:39):
you're not even part of this conversation, because if you
actually are standing in that arena, you would this would
be a whole different One of the things I wanted
to ask you to, Brennan. A lot of times, when
we're getting acquainted with vulnerability, it tends to be daunting.
What would be some of the lessons that you could
(10:01):
offer to people in those moments? But number one thing
I've learned is one, we don't share vulnerability with everyone, right.
We share our stories with people who have earned the
right to hear them. So our vulnerability is not for everybody, Right,
That's a privilege to hear that, right. Number Two, always
(10:22):
examine your intention for sharing because, and this is a
big one for me, I never share something that's vulnerable
to me looking for a response. My healing has to
be in my sharing, not what I hear bout. Okay,
(10:42):
let's stop right there, let's start right there, because that
is it. That is it so that when one is
sharing their vulnerability, it is towards one's own healing and
personal growth. Period. So no matter what the response may be,
(11:04):
no matter how people react, at the end of the day,
you're saying the fact that you took. That step is
the win, and that's the thing to hold onto. Got it.
Never tie your growth or your win to an outcome
you can't control. There it is. That's it. That's right,
(11:28):
that's it. So I know, Willow you you were really
interested in Renee's work around shame. We talked about guilt
and shame. The difference between shame and guilt is the
difference between I am bad and I did something bad.
So you go out on Thursday night, you drink too much,
you're hungover, and you miss a really important meeting at
(11:48):
work Friday morning, and yourself talk is, God, I'm an idiot,
I'm such a loser. I'm such I'm such a zero
shame or guilt shame focused on self, I'm I'm an idiot,
I'm a loser. The guilt self talk is I can't
believe I did that. That was a stupid thing to do.
(12:11):
Not I am stupid, but that was a stupid thing
to do. And here's the reason why the difference is huge.
Shame is positively correlated with violence, addiction, aggression, eating disorders, suicide, bullying.
I mean, across the board. In my field, we call
(12:31):
it the master emotion. Not only is guilt not correlated
with those outcomes, guilt seems to be a protective factor
against those outcomes. Meaning if I am able to separate
myself from a behavior and say, you know, I get
back at an f on a paper, I'm not stupid,
(12:53):
but not studying last night was stupid. And so guilt
versus shame is it's it's everything. This is so interesting
because I just had an experience in my own personal
life that I went through something exactly like that, and
I didn't even realize that I was experiencing both shame
(13:17):
and guilt, and Rodney actually was and I didn't even
realize he was doing it at the time until you
just described needs her husband my husband, and he was like, well,
you did a bad thing. You're not a bad person.
What Rodney did that intervention is life changing. One of
(13:40):
the things we've learned in the last probably, let's say
five years, the brain processes social pain exactly like it
processes physical pain. So if you spill boiling coffee on
your hand, the same part of your brain lights up.
As if I shame you or humiliate you, We're not
(14:01):
wired for it. It destroys us. Why do people like
shaming other people so much because it feels great. Because
when we're in pain, it is a very lethal weapon
for discharging our own pain and suffering. Shame is a
(14:23):
tool of oppression, belittling, humiliating, dehumanizing the problem. What we
don't understand is shame doesn't just destroy the victim of it.
Shame destroys the person who uses it home and I
think even more so you know what I mean? Yes,
(14:44):
I think, you know I think of I rarely ever
talk about this without getting emotional, but I was raised
in a very shame based family. Um that was a
parenting tool because let me tell you something, you can
change a child's behavior on a die with shame at
you not how to look. That could just diminish your kids.
(15:07):
I mean like this because for children, shame is the
threat of being unlovable, and so for children from newborns
through about fourth or fifth grade, being unlovable actually means dying.
So shame is the threat of not being caregiving. I
(15:29):
can think about the times when I have used shame
with one of my children, and it's the most devastating
thing I can think of. And we're most likely to
shame our children or anyone around us that has less
power than us when we are either scared or we're
(15:51):
in our own shame. It's something we're taught. Like the
way that you just expressed that and paranting, I'm like,
oh my god, Like I never even saw it that way.
But I did really try, especially in raising Willow and
trying not to put shame around her social development, you know,
trying to raise a young woman and when a young
(16:13):
woman goes through but not recognizing how tremntal that using
shame as a parenting tool. Yeah, yeah, igives you. Forgive me,
I do because I I remember, but I forgive you.
I do. Where was an example when I was younger,
(16:35):
like I would just get super emotional, and like I
still get super emotional now, but you would look at
me and you would just be like, yeah, you can cry,
but like do it over like go to your room
and do it over there, like like you pushing me
away for crying. Was like, yeah, I'm a bad person
for crying that. I did have a lot of those
moments when I was like oh no, no, no, oh no,
(16:56):
we're not gonna do that. And then they had a
lot to do with me being able to handle my
own tears totally. Do you see that in something and
how I raised you? Because I mean I definitely was
the kind of parents. Again we had no vulnerability and
well we couldn't though, you know just an hour. I mean,
but I was. She was talking about the look. I
(17:18):
don't know how we did that, but that's all it took.
We were so good at that in our family, so good,
like you know. She gave me that the other and
I was like, I'm grown. Why is my heart calcitating?
She gave me the look and I'm like looking at
her and I'm like, but I'm grown, but I'm grown
in my heart's like I am grown? I am I have,
(17:45):
I have that look and I'm just gonna admit it
here for everybody. I can be scary when I'm scared. Yeah,
I had to check myself when I'm scared. I did
a look the other day. My head said that makes
my eye is water, like I'm afraid when you do
that look, because it's like a look I had growing up,
Like it's like they get your together or elsewhere? Why
(18:07):
am now? Or else Dad's way was don't collapse. Would
look at me and say, don't collapse and I would
be looking at him like yeah and trying not to
break down, like this is what's so powerful about your
show that you would never have talked about this fifty
years ago. Absolutely not right, I mean absolutely, And let
(18:31):
me tell you something else. Had you not shamed your children,
you would have been shamed by your friends. One of
my favorite people in the world as my grandmother Ellen.
She died, but I named my daughter after her, and
there's a picture of her that I have that I
keep very close by. She's nine months pregnant and she's
got a cigarette in one hand and a melomine ashtray
(18:53):
balancing on her big belly. It reminds me that don't
hold people responsible for information they didn't have. People were
mostly doing the very best they could, where some people
just terrible people. Yes, but in this case, people you
shame because it was how we parent. I'm actually glad though,
(19:15):
because I was over the top at some points in
my in my childhood career. I do recognize those moments,
you know, and it just had a lot to do
with me not being able to handle my own vulnerability
at that time, just growing up in the environments we
grew up, you know, and it's a different playing field now, Yeah,
because I think we equated being vulnerable with being weak,
(19:37):
and yeah, not just weak, dangerous. Yeah, we would be
negligent not to talk about this safety as a prerequisite
for vulnerability. Yeah, and so I can assure you that
as a white woman, I have way more permission to
be vulnerable than a black person any person of color.
(20:01):
Privilege is real, and taking the armor off in this
country for everyone is not safe. That's hugely important. Trauma
kills vulnerability, whether that trauma is abuse or neglect, or racism,
(20:22):
or poverty or homophobia. It makes vulnerability dangerous For me
and my own personal experience, I've realized that I've had
to learn how to create safety within If you could
give just a little bit around how one can feel
safe enough with themselves. This came up so much in
(20:45):
our research on trust it kind of shocked me. What
we know from the data is that when we experience
a setback or failure or heartbreak, the first casualty of
that is self trust. So we're like, I don't trust
myself anymore to take care of myself to make the
right decisions. I have a lot of that. Yeah, Yeah,
it's hard and the biggest threat to self trust is
(21:08):
do I choose to betray myself over making someone else
feel uncomfortable or disappointed. So every time we choose ourselves,
we have to stop and recognize it. Got it, Like
I chose to take care of me right now, right,
(21:30):
So you're saying every choice that you make and taking
care of yourself slowly builds that internal self trust that
makes all the sense and the word. But let me
ask this though, it can if there ever a time
where there's too much of that, because sometimes I think
that you take on so much. Well, I think that's
(21:54):
part of my codependency as well, because I don't want
to burden anybody, right, you know, I'm I want to
help everybody, but I damn sure don't want anybody to
feel like they gotta help me. Right, So is it? Now?
Let's talk about that because you just put your hand up.
Let's talk about that for saying so is that or not?
(22:14):
You do not want to talk about this? You do
not want to talk about this? We should go on you.
I'm gonna piss you off. You you should go the
next topic. Next topic I'm gonna walk is all the
way back to the uncomfortable part. All right, this is terrible.
This is me. So I'm with you in the pain
that's coming. So any strength out of whack can become
(22:41):
a form of armor. Yeah, independence is great, but it's
actually not neurobiologically how we're wired. We're actually wired for interdependence,
not codependence, and not dependence, but interdependence. We need each other.
We're not meant to do it alone. It's not how
(23:01):
we're built. So the problem with the helpers, I'll just
i'll talk about me is that if you can't receive
help with an open heart, you're never really giving it
with an open heart. So now I mean it is
(23:26):
hard because what that means. So when I when that
emerged from the data, I was like, f you, Like,
I'm I'm out, Like like this is just it does
because what happens is I was like, that's not true,
because I'm the world's best helper. I help everybody. Then
what I realized was I absolutely attached value to being
(23:49):
the helper. Absolutely think there's more value in being the
helper than being the help. There used to be like,
if I'm not helping, what value you? I ask that
that was me? Why is that my problem? Too, that's me.
That has been a self worth issue. That's a that's
a self worth issue. And so then I started asking
(24:10):
for help. I'm the oldest of four and so I'm
the one that anything. Anybody needs anything, until I fell
apart and then I couldn't do it and I had
to ask for help. And then I realized, Wow, I'm
surrounded by loving capable, more capable than me and some
and then I started receiving help and realized that takes
a lot more vulnerability. Well, I got to start working
(24:33):
on that thing. Because I don't I don't ask for help.
I will definitely say in my relationship. I have to
say that Will has just he just refuses not to help.
He's just like, I don't care. I'm gonna be there
because you need me, even if you don't know it.
I'm going to inject myself in this because you need me.
(24:57):
I'm like, no, no, no, no, I got this. I
don't want you to doing anything. He's like, yeah, okay, yep,
I'll be right there. Let me let me just let
me just bring Beau. Steve's the same way. Let me
just bring on Piste off Part two. Raise your hand
if you're perpetually piste off because they're not doing enough
and you're but you're not asking for anything, but like
you like, yeah, the resentment this is, this is I'm
(25:19):
so scared to yea, before we go Renee, I've got
two family members really quick that we're like, there is
no way that you are gonna have bnet come on,
and we can't ask some questions. They have been here
quarantining with us. So it's my sister in law and
(25:40):
my niece Jay Trish. You guys here, what's that lady?
This is my niece Jade and this is my sister
in law Trish. So honored to meet you, so so
so honored. I just love how transparent you are. So
(26:00):
you want to go first? Yes. So I am a
wife and a mother of three, and my entire life
has been spent catering to the needs of my entire
family and friends and everyone around, and I feel like
I've always put everybody else before myself, and so now
i feel like I'm low key going into like a
(26:20):
midlife crisis because I'm finally seeing and understanding how I
have to put myself first. I feel guilty sometimes because
I feel like I'm being selfish and neglecting other feelings
of my family. The journey that you're talking about was
the hardest work maybe that I've ever done in my life.
(26:42):
I have to agree. And Carl Young has this really
powerful quote, the greatest tragedy for a child is the
unlived life of a parent. M H. And what you're
trying to do right now is not going to be easy.
The push fact is going to be real. Maybe less
(27:02):
so from your your kids and your partner, but definitely
the world around you, because the world around you is
really benefiting from you. In this role of taking care
of everything and everyone. We can't really give what we
don't have. You've got to have a full, beautiful inner
(27:23):
life that is for no one else but you in
order to give to anyone else. And you've got to
ask for what you need. And that is the biggest
gifts you'll ever give your children is letting them observe
your path to wholeness. And you're going to terrify some
(27:45):
people with your own authenticity, but man, will you feel
alive and you're in a journey towards wholeness. So don't
look at it as selfishness. To see it as making
yourself whole. Yeah, that's that's good, that you are great whole. Yeah,
(28:08):
making yourself explanation because I want to make sure it's
really there is no midlife crisis, right, It's a midlife
unraveling that is real, and it's the universe grabbing us
by the shoulders at midlife and saying, wake up. The
gifts I gave to you are not being used, and
(28:30):
not using these gifts is not benign. You will pay
for it. That's real talk right there. That it's a
universal shoulder shake, not the loving kind. I wanted to ask.
You know, the pressure of social media, trying to just
(28:54):
form this perfect person, you start to look at other
people's relationships compared to each other. It's success, Like what
are they doing that I'm not doing? What advice would
you give to those millennials that are struggling secretly? M M,
So I gotta tell you, And I know this is
not popular. I'm a big fan of millennials and gin zers. Okay,
(29:18):
what is there to be fans of? That's my question now,
because I'm like, yeah, no, you know why we broke
our contract with them? Right? As adults, we're raising a
bunch of kids on active shooter drills. This is the
first generation of people saying, oh, they actually don't know
the grown ups don't know what they're doing. That's true.
(29:38):
We're winging it, and so they're they're calling all kinds
of stuff into question. And I don't like the whole
millennials with this are overprotected because at the same time
that's happening with some mostly white and wealthy kids, there's
whole groups of millennials and gin zers who have been
completely under served and underprotected. I think that's a dangerous swath.
(30:04):
I think these are mostly just young adults saying we
want something different and we don't really trust you. Yeah,
that's so true. My response to that is, damn, y'all
got good judgment is like, look outside, it's a dumpster fire,
you know, look at the White House, look at the fires,
look at the COVID And so I think for millennials
(30:27):
they feel untethered. Yeah, ground yourself is what I would say.
Ground yourself and reality check what you're doing. The cure
to the instagramming and the I am highly triggered is
plant your feet and find some purpose. Yeah, damn, you
(30:53):
just plant your feet, find some purpose and let go
of the notion that you are going to press into
your purpose while pleasing people. That is not going to
ever happen. Yep, we need to let kids experience adversity.
Adversity made me strong. I'm tough as nails. Like Look,
(31:15):
things go bad, we get into a street fight. You
want me on your side, trust me, and I definitely
want this table on my side. Yeah. So, adversity is
helpful to build courage and stamina, but we don't need trauma.
Trauma doesn't build tough people. Trauma sets people back. What
(31:36):
we've got is a generation or two of kids that
were raised with protection from adversity, but too much trauma
and the Instagram stuff is just the symptom of not
being grounded and what's real and what's important. Renee, I
(31:57):
want you to know this family loved you before we
had this conversation, but now we are utterly upset. You
are amazing. We love you. Thank you so much. You
have to invite me back to the Red Table. And
when get back on plain are you kidding me? Moved out?
(32:20):
Real talk? Thank you? Wow? That was about that was amazing. Hey, everyone,
we are so excited to bring you an all new
Red Table Talk series with the iconic Queen Gloria Stefan.
I promise you will love, love, love this new series.
(32:44):
But so the energy here is very healey, and we've
had a myriad of stars stay here, the Nero Share
j Low, Oprah and your godfather Quincy Jones. And the
ghost that lives here is famous too. This is my niece, Lily.
(33:05):
She is Esta fun. This is my daughter Emily, and
she is est fresh and I am Esta fierce. Everything
is special about Red Table Talk via Stepans or Latina's Baby.
Three different women, three different generations, three different opinions. We
(33:26):
are so honest when we come to the table. Lilia Stefan,
my niece, is a beloved Latin, a TV star, devoted
mother of two, and she is fun fun funny. I
hope we don't right, you will do it right. Who's
the biggest drama Queen? I was bored with a drama?
Emily A. Stefan, My daughter is a gifted musician. She's
(33:50):
outspoken and a powerful voice of her generation. When I
lay down the law, zip it, I'm Glara Stefan. I'm
a performer. I've been married forty two years. I'm the
mother of two, I have one grandson, five dogs, and
I am a survivor. Thank you. We are proud to
(34:13):
present Red Table Talk is Stephens Good Table. To join
the red table Talk family and become a part of
the conversation, follow us at facebook dot com slash red
table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red
Table Talk podcast produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio, and
(34:35):
I Heart Radio.
Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Red Table Talk Podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
Facebook watch show in audio, produced by Westbrook Audio and
I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
on Apple Podcast. The Smith household has been buzzing on
this Red Table Talk. I'm with you in the pain
(00:21):
up coming. Oh my god, like I never even saw
it that way. I forgive you real talk with the
brilliant Renee Brown. If you're not want to talk about this,
I'm gonna piss you off. Afraid, five best selling books,
over a hundred million views for her groundbreaking talks. That
(00:41):
is it. My mind was blown. She has spent two
decades studying shame, guilt, and vulnerability. Find out how they
may be holding you back. This is about you, This
is about who you want to be. This is what's
so powerful about your show. You would never have talked
to about this fifty years ago. All right, this is
(01:11):
a special one, lady. I've got our girl, Renee Brown,
finally coming. We've been trying to have Burnee forever. I'm
so excited. Yeah, she's gonna be a good one. She's amazing. Yeah.
For me, it's perfect timing. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeahs have
been going on in game's life. You need a little
(01:31):
assistance here. Okay, all right, let's walk to the same ladies.
My whole household is buzzing. Okay. We have been looking
forward to this red table for a long time. Our
special guest is beloved and brilliant, and we've been writing
our burning questions for her all weeking. Welcome, Berne, Welcome.
(01:58):
First of all, thank you for coming. I cannot tell
you the Smith household love has been buzzing. I think
if let me tell you will get so excited. Last
night when I told him that you were, I guess
she's coming here. He wanted me to tell you that
he's such a big fan and he loves the story
(02:19):
that you tell about your husband at the lake. Yeah. Man, Yeah,
this sentence that's been floating in my data for years
kept coming to my head, which is the story I'm
telling myself. Yes, my husband was being weird to me
in the lake and it was really long. It was
just kind of this long swim and I had on
a speedo and we were working out and we're both
(02:41):
ex competitive swimmers, and I hadn't worn a speedo in
a lot of years, and I was trying to connect
with him and he kept kind of blowing me off.
And so the story I was making up is that
it was either like, oh my god, she does not
rock a speedo like she did twenty five years and
two kids ago, or she's all And so I just
looked at him and I said, look, the story I'm
(03:02):
telling myself right now is that you think I look
awful or you think I'm old. And it turned out
that he was actually in the middle of a panic
attack on the lake that day. He was having his
own struggles. Appearance and body image are still the number
one shame triggers for women, so when we make up stories,
they're often about that. When I first heard that story,
(03:24):
it was like wow, Like my mind was blown. We
just can't see what the other person is feeling or thinking.
We make up stories, and the stories we make up
are self protective in nature, and that's that's the thing.
That was the person that would have the story in
my head and claim it as true and keep it right,
(03:45):
and I'm making decisions based on it. When I got
the courage to at least be vulnerable enough to talk
about the story in my head. I got to see
the power of vulnerability. We keep on talking about that word.
Is there a simple way for you to just break
(04:05):
down what that V word means? Yes, And there's a
lot of complicated V words, and it's one of the
most complicated words. Ye. So the definition of vulnerability is
the emotion that we experience in times of uncertainty, risk,
and emotional exposure. Examples vulnerability the first date after my divorce,
(04:30):
saying I love you, first, trying to get pregnant after
my second miscarriage. I knew early on in my work
that vulnerability was the birthplace of courage. I knew that
courage didn't exist without it. And so when you think
about what y'all do at red table talk uncertain you
don't know the way the conversation is going to go
(04:51):
totally risk and emotional exposure. Yeah, got him all three,
I'll tell you. But I we we definitely be trying
to practice vulnerability over here. I definitely. I've definitely had
some moments where I've been at this table going what
(05:12):
do I say this? Do I say this? Do I
say When was the last time that you felt like
you were being most vulnerable definitely when I talked about
my self harm. Honestly feel like I lost my sanity
at one Okay, yeah, it was after that whole with
my hair thing and I was kind of like just
(05:32):
in this gray area of like who am I? Like
is there? Like do I have a purpose? And I
was just like plunged into this like black hole and
I was like cutting myself? What cutting yourself? Wet on
my wrist? I mean you can't even see it, but
like there's still a little something there, but like totally
(05:54):
lost my sanity for a moment there. Wow, looking back,
it makes me feel even stronger because so many people
d M me or or talk to me and we're
like wow, like that really helped me about you game?
For me? The one on addiction, there was a power
(06:17):
that God had been thank God had been doing me
through all it, and I just said let go and
surrender so that I could see what he was people.
(06:40):
I can't even get it up, you know. It was
really one where I felt really exposed. Yeah, what about you?
I would say for me, it would be the last
r T we're gonna start with. This is a very
personal journey that became very public. Yes, full blast no,
(07:03):
I I was feeling and just the total breakdown of
any masks that you know, But I was much courage.
I want to put it on the table. Yes, yeah,
I'm so proud of you to be able to see
you and Dad do that. For me, that was like, Okay,
that's real deal. That's real love. Like when you can
(07:25):
be like I'm with you, I'm gonna stand by you
and I'm gonna hold your hand because I love you.
That's what we do and that that's really important. But then,
you know, when I'm talking about all this brune, then
I start thinking about I get real caught up and
have always been kind of overly concerned with what other
(07:46):
people think of me. I've been sober for twenty oh
my god, twenty four years, and a lot of times
I have to literally choose, am I going to choose
use my recovery or am I going to choose making
people I don't even know feel better? And then when
(08:06):
you find a quote and it changes your life, that
it really there was my life before that and my
life after the quote is it's not the critic who counts.
It's not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have
done it better. The credit actually belongs to the man
in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and
dust blood, who strives valiantly, who airs again and again
(08:31):
and again, and who in the end, while I'll change this,
she may know the triumph of high achievement. At least
when she fails, she's daring greatly. That is so powerful,
And it's to me. Three things happen. One, I'm going
to live my life in the arena. I'm going to
(08:52):
be brave with my life, and that means choosing courage
over comfort and pissing some people off sometimes. But I'm
just not here for your purpose. I'm here for mine too.
That quote is everything I've ever learned in twenty years
of research about vulnerability. Vulnerability is not weakness. It's the
courage to show up and be real when you can't
(09:13):
control the outcome or what people think. And then the
last one that really, I think really set me free
in almost a dangerous way. But I love it, I
really love it. Is if you are not in the
arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I'm not interested
in your feedback. That right there, it's like, don't you
(09:39):
you're not even part of this conversation, because if you
actually are standing in that arena, you would this would
be a whole different One of the things I wanted
to ask you to, Brennan. A lot of times, when
we're getting acquainted with vulnerability, it tends to be daunting.
What would be some of the lessons that you could
(10:01):
offer to people in those moments? But number one thing
I've learned is one, we don't share vulnerability with everyone, right.
We share our stories with people who have earned the
right to hear them. So our vulnerability is not for everybody, Right,
That's a privilege to hear that, right. Number Two, always
(10:22):
examine your intention for sharing because, and this is a
big one for me, I never share something that's vulnerable
to me looking for a response. My healing has to
be in my sharing, not what I hear bout. Okay,
(10:42):
let's stop right there, let's start right there, because that
is it. That is it so that when one is
sharing their vulnerability, it is towards one's own healing and
personal growth. Period. So no matter what the response may be,
(11:04):
no matter how people react, at the end of the day,
you're saying the fact that you took. That step is
the win, and that's the thing to hold onto. Got it.
Never tie your growth or your win to an outcome
you can't control. There it is. That's it. That's right,
(11:28):
that's it. So I know, Willow you you were really
interested in Renee's work around shame. We talked about guilt
and shame. The difference between shame and guilt is the
difference between I am bad and I did something bad.
So you go out on Thursday night, you drink too much,
you're hungover, and you miss a really important meeting at
(11:48):
work Friday morning, and yourself talk is, God, I'm an idiot,
I'm such a loser. I'm such I'm such a zero
shame or guilt shame focused on self, I'm I'm an idiot,
I'm a loser. The guilt self talk is I can't
believe I did that. That was a stupid thing to do.
(12:11):
Not I am stupid, but that was a stupid thing
to do. And here's the reason why the difference is huge.
Shame is positively correlated with violence, addiction, aggression, eating disorders, suicide, bullying.
I mean, across the board. In my field, we call
(12:31):
it the master emotion. Not only is guilt not correlated
with those outcomes, guilt seems to be a protective factor
against those outcomes. Meaning if I am able to separate
myself from a behavior and say, you know, I get
back at an f on a paper, I'm not stupid,
(12:53):
but not studying last night was stupid. And so guilt
versus shame is it's it's everything. This is so interesting
because I just had an experience in my own personal
life that I went through something exactly like that, and
I didn't even realize that I was experiencing both shame
(13:17):
and guilt, and Rodney actually was and I didn't even
realize he was doing it at the time until you
just described needs her husband my husband, and he was like, well,
you did a bad thing. You're not a bad person.
What Rodney did that intervention is life changing. One of
(13:40):
the things we've learned in the last probably, let's say
five years, the brain processes social pain exactly like it
processes physical pain. So if you spill boiling coffee on
your hand, the same part of your brain lights up.
As if I shame you or humiliate you, We're not
(14:01):
wired for it. It destroys us. Why do people like
shaming other people so much because it feels great. Because
when we're in pain, it is a very lethal weapon
for discharging our own pain and suffering. Shame is a
(14:23):
tool of oppression, belittling, humiliating, dehumanizing the problem. What we
don't understand is shame doesn't just destroy the victim of it.
Shame destroys the person who uses it home and I
think even more so you know what I mean? Yes,
(14:44):
I think, you know I think of I rarely ever
talk about this without getting emotional, but I was raised
in a very shame based family. Um that was a
parenting tool because let me tell you something, you can
change a child's behavior on a die with shame at
you not how to look. That could just diminish your kids.
(15:07):
I mean like this because for children, shame is the
threat of being unlovable, and so for children from newborns
through about fourth or fifth grade, being unlovable actually means dying.
So shame is the threat of not being caregiving. I
(15:29):
can think about the times when I have used shame
with one of my children, and it's the most devastating
thing I can think of. And we're most likely to
shame our children or anyone around us that has less
power than us when we are either scared or we're
(15:51):
in our own shame. It's something we're taught. Like the
way that you just expressed that and paranting, I'm like,
oh my god, Like I never even saw it that way.
But I did really try, especially in raising Willow and
trying not to put shame around her social development, you know,
trying to raise a young woman and when a young
(16:13):
woman goes through but not recognizing how tremntal that using
shame as a parenting tool. Yeah, yeah, igives you. Forgive me,
I do because I I remember, but I forgive you.
I do. Where was an example when I was younger,
(16:35):
like I would just get super emotional, and like I
still get super emotional now, but you would look at
me and you would just be like, yeah, you can cry,
but like do it over like go to your room
and do it over there, like like you pushing me
away for crying. Was like, yeah, I'm a bad person
for crying that. I did have a lot of those
moments when I was like oh no, no, no, oh no,
(16:56):
we're not gonna do that. And then they had a
lot to do with me being able to handle my
own tears totally. Do you see that in something and
how I raised you? Because I mean I definitely was
the kind of parents. Again we had no vulnerability and
well we couldn't though, you know just an hour. I mean,
but I was. She was talking about the look. I
(17:18):
don't know how we did that, but that's all it took.
We were so good at that in our family, so good,
like you know. She gave me that the other and
I was like, I'm grown. Why is my heart calcitating?
She gave me the look and I'm like looking at
her and I'm like, but I'm grown, but I'm grown
in my heart's like I am grown? I am I have,
(17:45):
I have that look and I'm just gonna admit it
here for everybody. I can be scary when I'm scared. Yeah,
I had to check myself when I'm scared. I did
a look the other day. My head said that makes
my eye is water, like I'm afraid when you do
that look, because it's like a look I had growing up,
Like it's like they get your together or elsewhere? Why
(18:07):
am now? Or else Dad's way was don't collapse. Would
look at me and say, don't collapse and I would
be looking at him like yeah and trying not to
break down, like this is what's so powerful about your
show that you would never have talked about this fifty
years ago. Absolutely not right, I mean absolutely, And let
(18:31):
me tell you something else. Had you not shamed your children,
you would have been shamed by your friends. One of
my favorite people in the world as my grandmother Ellen.
She died, but I named my daughter after her, and
there's a picture of her that I have that I
keep very close by. She's nine months pregnant and she's
got a cigarette in one hand and a melomine ashtray
(18:53):
balancing on her big belly. It reminds me that don't
hold people responsible for information they didn't have. People were
mostly doing the very best they could, where some people
just terrible people. Yes, but in this case, people you
shame because it was how we parent. I'm actually glad though,
(19:15):
because I was over the top at some points in
my in my childhood career. I do recognize those moments,
you know, and it just had a lot to do
with me not being able to handle my own vulnerability
at that time, just growing up in the environments we
grew up, you know, and it's a different playing field now, Yeah,
because I think we equated being vulnerable with being weak,
(19:37):
and yeah, not just weak, dangerous. Yeah, we would be
negligent not to talk about this safety as a prerequisite
for vulnerability. Yeah, and so I can assure you that
as a white woman, I have way more permission to
be vulnerable than a black person any person of color.
(20:01):
Privilege is real, and taking the armor off in this
country for everyone is not safe. That's hugely important. Trauma
kills vulnerability, whether that trauma is abuse or neglect, or racism,
(20:22):
or poverty or homophobia. It makes vulnerability dangerous For me
and my own personal experience, I've realized that I've had
to learn how to create safety within If you could
give just a little bit around how one can feel
safe enough with themselves. This came up so much in
(20:45):
our research on trust it kind of shocked me. What
we know from the data is that when we experience
a setback or failure or heartbreak, the first casualty of
that is self trust. So we're like, I don't trust
myself anymore to take care of myself to make the
right decisions. I have a lot of that. Yeah, Yeah,
it's hard and the biggest threat to self trust is
(21:08):
do I choose to betray myself over making someone else
feel uncomfortable or disappointed. So every time we choose ourselves,
we have to stop and recognize it. Got it, Like
I chose to take care of me right now, right,
(21:30):
So you're saying every choice that you make and taking
care of yourself slowly builds that internal self trust that
makes all the sense and the word. But let me
ask this though, it can if there ever a time
where there's too much of that, because sometimes I think
that you take on so much. Well, I think that's
(21:54):
part of my codependency as well, because I don't want
to burden anybody, right, you know, I'm I want to
help everybody, but I damn sure don't want anybody to
feel like they gotta help me. Right, So is it? Now?
Let's talk about that because you just put your hand up.
Let's talk about that for saying so is that or not?
(22:14):
You do not want to talk about this? You do
not want to talk about this? We should go on you.
I'm gonna piss you off. You you should go the
next topic. Next topic I'm gonna walk is all the
way back to the uncomfortable part. All right, this is terrible.
This is me. So I'm with you in the pain
that's coming. So any strength out of whack can become
(22:41):
a form of armor. Yeah, independence is great, but it's
actually not neurobiologically how we're wired. We're actually wired for interdependence,
not codependence, and not dependence, but interdependence. We need each other.
We're not meant to do it alone. It's not how
(23:01):
we're built. So the problem with the helpers, I'll just
i'll talk about me is that if you can't receive
help with an open heart, you're never really giving it
with an open heart. So now I mean it is
(23:26):
hard because what that means. So when I when that
emerged from the data, I was like, f you, Like,
I'm I'm out, Like like this is just it does
because what happens is I was like, that's not true,
because I'm the world's best helper. I help everybody. Then
what I realized was I absolutely attached value to being
(23:49):
the helper. Absolutely think there's more value in being the
helper than being the help. There used to be like,
if I'm not helping, what value you? I ask that
that was me? Why is that my problem? Too, that's me.
That has been a self worth issue. That's a that's
a self worth issue. And so then I started asking
(24:10):
for help. I'm the oldest of four and so I'm
the one that anything. Anybody needs anything, until I fell
apart and then I couldn't do it and I had
to ask for help. And then I realized, Wow, I'm
surrounded by loving capable, more capable than me and some
and then I started receiving help and realized that takes
a lot more vulnerability. Well, I got to start working
(24:33):
on that thing. Because I don't I don't ask for help.
I will definitely say in my relationship. I have to
say that Will has just he just refuses not to help.
He's just like, I don't care. I'm gonna be there
because you need me, even if you don't know it.
I'm going to inject myself in this because you need me.
(24:57):
I'm like, no, no, no, no, I got this. I
don't want you to doing anything. He's like, yeah, okay, yep,
I'll be right there. Let me let me just let
me just bring Beau. Steve's the same way. Let me
just bring on Piste off Part two. Raise your hand
if you're perpetually piste off because they're not doing enough
and you're but you're not asking for anything, but like
you like, yeah, the resentment this is, this is I'm
(25:19):
so scared to yea, before we go Renee, I've got
two family members really quick that we're like, there is
no way that you are gonna have bnet come on,
and we can't ask some questions. They have been here
quarantining with us. So it's my sister in law and
(25:40):
my niece Jay Trish. You guys here, what's that lady?
This is my niece Jade and this is my sister
in law Trish. So honored to meet you, so so
so honored. I just love how transparent you are. So
(26:00):
you want to go first? Yes. So I am a
wife and a mother of three, and my entire life
has been spent catering to the needs of my entire
family and friends and everyone around, and I feel like
I've always put everybody else before myself, and so now
i feel like I'm low key going into like a
(26:20):
midlife crisis because I'm finally seeing and understanding how I
have to put myself first. I feel guilty sometimes because
I feel like I'm being selfish and neglecting other feelings
of my family. The journey that you're talking about was
the hardest work maybe that I've ever done in my life.
(26:42):
I have to agree. And Carl Young has this really
powerful quote, the greatest tragedy for a child is the
unlived life of a parent. M H. And what you're
trying to do right now is not going to be easy.
The push fact is going to be real. Maybe less
(27:02):
so from your your kids and your partner, but definitely
the world around you, because the world around you is
really benefiting from you. In this role of taking care
of everything and everyone. We can't really give what we
don't have. You've got to have a full, beautiful inner
(27:23):
life that is for no one else but you in
order to give to anyone else. And you've got to
ask for what you need. And that is the biggest
gifts you'll ever give your children is letting them observe
your path to wholeness. And you're going to terrify some
(27:45):
people with your own authenticity, but man, will you feel
alive and you're in a journey towards wholeness. So don't
look at it as selfishness. To see it as making
yourself whole. Yeah, that's that's good, that you are great whole. Yeah,
(28:08):
making yourself explanation because I want to make sure it's
really there is no midlife crisis, right, It's a midlife
unraveling that is real, and it's the universe grabbing us
by the shoulders at midlife and saying, wake up. The
gifts I gave to you are not being used, and
(28:30):
not using these gifts is not benign. You will pay
for it. That's real talk right there. That it's a
universal shoulder shake, not the loving kind. I wanted to ask.
You know, the pressure of social media, trying to just
(28:54):
form this perfect person, you start to look at other
people's relationships compared to each other. It's success, Like what
are they doing that I'm not doing? What advice would
you give to those millennials that are struggling secretly? M M,
So I gotta tell you, And I know this is
not popular. I'm a big fan of millennials and gin zers. Okay,
(29:18):
what is there to be fans of? That's my question now,
because I'm like, yeah, no, you know why we broke
our contract with them? Right? As adults, we're raising a
bunch of kids on active shooter drills. This is the
first generation of people saying, oh, they actually don't know
the grown ups don't know what they're doing. That's true.
(29:38):
We're winging it, and so they're they're calling all kinds
of stuff into question. And I don't like the whole
millennials with this are overprotected because at the same time
that's happening with some mostly white and wealthy kids, there's
whole groups of millennials and gin zers who have been
completely under served and underprotected. I think that's a dangerous swath.
(30:04):
I think these are mostly just young adults saying we
want something different and we don't really trust you. Yeah,
that's so true. My response to that is, damn, y'all
got good judgment is like, look outside, it's a dumpster fire,
you know, look at the White House, look at the fires,
look at the COVID And so I think for millennials
(30:27):
they feel untethered. Yeah, ground yourself is what I would say.
Ground yourself and reality check what you're doing. The cure
to the instagramming and the I am highly triggered is
plant your feet and find some purpose. Yeah, damn, you
(30:53):
just plant your feet, find some purpose and let go
of the notion that you are going to press into
your purpose while pleasing people. That is not going to
ever happen. Yep, we need to let kids experience adversity.
Adversity made me strong. I'm tough as nails. Like Look,
(31:15):
things go bad, we get into a street fight. You
want me on your side, trust me, and I definitely
want this table on my side. Yeah. So, adversity is
helpful to build courage and stamina, but we don't need trauma.
Trauma doesn't build tough people. Trauma sets people back. What
(31:36):
we've got is a generation or two of kids that
were raised with protection from adversity, but too much trauma
and the Instagram stuff is just the symptom of not
being grounded and what's real and what's important. Renee, I
(31:57):
want you to know this family loved you before we
had this conversation, but now we are utterly upset. You
are amazing. We love you. Thank you so much. You
have to invite me back to the Red Table. And
when get back on plain are you kidding me? Moved out?
(32:20):
Real talk? Thank you? Wow? That was about that was amazing. Hey, everyone,
we are so excited to bring you an all new
Red Table Talk series with the iconic Queen Gloria Stefan.
I promise you will love, love, love this new series.
(32:44):
But so the energy here is very healey, and we've
had a myriad of stars stay here, the Nero Share
j Low, Oprah and your godfather Quincy Jones. And the
ghost that lives here is famous too. This is my niece, Lily.
(33:05):
She is Esta fun. This is my daughter Emily, and
she is est fresh and I am Esta fierce. Everything
is special about Red Table Talk via Stepans or Latina's Baby.
Three different women, three different generations, three different opinions. We
(33:26):
are so honest when we come to the table. Lilia Stefan,
my niece, is a beloved Latin, a TV star, devoted
mother of two, and she is fun fun funny. I
hope we don't right, you will do it right. Who's
the biggest drama Queen? I was bored with a drama?
Emily A. Stefan, My daughter is a gifted musician. She's
(33:50):
outspoken and a powerful voice of her generation. When I
lay down the law, zip it, I'm Glara Stefan. I'm
a performer. I've been married forty two years. I'm the
mother of two, I have one grandson, five dogs, and
I am a survivor. Thank you. We are proud to
(34:13):
present Red Table Talk is Stephens Good Table. To join
the red table Talk family and become a part of
the conversation, follow us at facebook dot com slash red
table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red
Table Talk podcast produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio, and
(34:35):
I Heart Radio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.