October 27, 2021 • 31 mins
The Red Table gets heated as the Estefans discuss colorism within the Latin community. 1 in 4 Hispanics identifies as Afro-Latino and many face discrimination from both their Black and Latin sides. Queer Eye’s Karamo Brown speaks candidly about how he grappled to accept his Cuban roots as a Black man, while singer and TV star, Amara La Negra, reveals how she experienced racism on the set of a popular television show. Plus, we break down the difference between Race and Ethnicity.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Vendos me and then Gloria Stefan. Here you are listening
to Red Table Talk via Stephans Podcast, all your favorite
episodes from our Facebook watch show in audio. They make
sure that you know that you are the darkest one. Colorism,
the disturbing truth. We don't talk about my grandmo. Let say,
(00:22):
don't go outside and don't darken on my family. And
I still get emotional right now because you think I'm
a kid. Afro Latinos speak out about the discrimination they
face within their own community because whatever it is, it
doesn't look like me. Our culture secret exposed at the
(00:43):
Red Table. A lot of us are very hypocrite. Why
why there is racism? They don't pretend to like us
and really not like us. Latino that is a term
(01:03):
that unites all Latinos, regardless of nationality or skin color.
It's about a shared culture and a sense of belonging.
But let's be clear, being Latino is not a race.
There are black Latinos, white Latinos in every shade in between.
One in four US Hispanics identify as Afro Latino, and
two thirds of Hispanics with darker skin colors report discrimination
(01:28):
common yet racist phrases such as major lassa or improving
the race encouraged generations of Latinos to value European features
and skin tone. One survey showed that of dark skinned
individuals were viewed as less intelligent and therefore less worthy.
(01:49):
Lank what case is self hot. This is what colorism
looks like. It may not be something we want to acknowledge,
but that's exactly why we wanted to bring it to
the table. We cannot know what it's like to be
in the skin of darker Latinos because we were born
(02:13):
like this. In Latino families, you can have someone with
very dark skin, you could have someone with very light skin,
and they can be brother and sister. That dynamic within
the family can cause your family to treat you different.
People looking from the outside to treat you different, Which
is why we need to use this platform to amplify
this issue, because I don't know what that feels like.
(02:34):
It breaks my heart to think that after Latinos feel
racism in their own family because you think of racism
as a general thing in society or we need happens
in your own family is very difficult. Is that feeling
of being the trauma of being oppressed. As humans, we
tend to get close to what makes us comfortable, and
(02:57):
sometimes we treat different as less them, and that is
one of the biggest issues in the world. This is
something that needs to be gutted from the inside out
because they're dealing with things in their life that we
will never know merely as a result of the color
of their skin. Here we go, girls. Caramo is best
known as the culture expert on the hit show Queer Eye,
(03:18):
which I love. But what you may not know is
that Catamo's grandmother was Cuban. For most of his life,
he rejected his Latin roots because of the racism he
felt within his own family. Welcome to the table, baby,
I am loving this switter. Thank you, I appreciate it
so much. I'm trying to be a little sexy and
(03:39):
at your grandma's Cuban and int oping Jamaica Yes Ja Jamaica. Yeah.
And she uh er, yes, she she was, but she
was lighter growing up. I felt very embarrassed even today,
to be honest, talking to the producers and talking to people.
Every time they refer to me as Afro Latino or Latino,
I get very uncomfortable still to this something new. It's
(04:01):
very new. Your Latino family did not accept you. Not
accept sounds deliberate. I don't think they understood what they
were doing, but it was this subliminal, unconscious, internalized racism
that was in them. Do you feel like within your family,
if somebody's lighter, you know, they'll joke and be like, oh,
you know, because you're the darker one and I'm the
(04:21):
lighter one. And that of course, of course, for me,
playing outside as a kid was nerve wracking because my
grandmother would say, don't go outside and don't darken up
my family. Don't darken up my family. Don't darken up
my family. So I would not go outside until after
five pm because then the sun would be less. And
I still get emotional right now because you think, I'm
(04:43):
a kid and I should not have to be thinking
about not going outside and playing because I don't want
to get darker. So that my grandmother doesn't say a comment.
Maybe she even thought she was trying to protect it,
and that's what it was, and in her mind to
thinking that it was going to be better for you
to be lighter. Her intention was to protect me, to
(05:06):
to try to say things that she thought was going
to help me. But the impact is that it destroyed
me emotionally. But it also made me feel like I
wasn't connected to my culture. Intention versus impact, that is huge.
My family is to say, oh, your nose, and my grandmother,
even my mother would squeeze my nose. But it was
(05:28):
because it's more my nose is more African, my nose
is more black. And for many years I kept saying
to myself, I need to know Jack. I did not
know where that internalized hatred I had for myself was
coming from your drama. I mean, we don't realize it,
but you know it starts with the family that people
around you. You know, like those experiences are going to
(05:48):
mark you for the rest of your life. I'm the
only boy. I have sisters, and they range from very
light to I have one sister who's the darkness and
her treatment was the worst. The reason that I am
the person on where I that has the emotional and
mental conversations is because I understand the trauma and damage
where maybe and not to discount my sisters who are lighter,
(06:09):
they didn't experience because they were well Nita. There were
all these things that were for me. I didn't hear
those things as often. But you're gorgeous, appreciate. Have you
ever been told that you couldn't possibly be lat you
know because you're blank. Yes, it wasn't even a question.
(06:31):
It's immediately like no, no, no, you're Jamaican, there's no
Cuban and it's an easy way just to dismiss me
and discriminate me. That's why I love what you're doing here,
because there's so many people who are going to watch
you here this for the first time and say, oh,
this is a problem. Maybe I shouldn't be making these comments.
And so what I love about this conversation is that
for those individuals who are experiencing their mental health, their
(06:52):
emotional health being damaged, this is a moment where you
can understand that you are beautiful as you are. Because
it's a journey that I'm going on right now to
love myself because of the internalized racism that I heard
and experience from my Latin side, and I started to say,
I have to build myself back up conversations like this
where I look at you all and you look like
(07:13):
people my family and you're affirming me for the first time,
It's like, Okay, I'm getting chills, I'm getting emotional. It's
like I feel included. You have to go through a
process after trauma to understand it, to turn it into
something meaningful, to then be able to help somebody else.
You don't just live like this, go through trauma and
then oh, sure, I'm fine, I'm unaffective. Build however, you
(07:37):
change it with your sons. I tell them the skin
is gorgeous, the darker it's beautiful. I want to make
sure they hear it. And I realized it's important the
language I have in my home. I no longer allow
other family members, cousins, aunt's, uncle's, anyone to make comments
to my kids and me to walk away. It's important
for me now to be respectful of my family, especially
(07:59):
those who are older, but to also say, this is
why that is hurtful, this is why it is damaging,
and this is why I'm hoping we can talk about
why you think that's okay to say, and how you
changing that could actually make us a stronger. Fact, because
a stronger because families there but they're comparing. There's something
I say to people all the time. Comparison is the
(08:20):
thief of joy. If you want to steal the joy
from your family, whether it's their skin tone, whether it's
their education. Keep comparing your kids and see if you
don't steal the joy and the love that's in your home.
And let's try to be better. Let's try to really
think about what we're saying to each other as human beings.
I understand that your boyfriend Carlos is with you. Yes,
we have him join us because it would be so
(08:41):
relevant to this conversation. How god like beautiful couple it is.
How did you guys meet on Instagram? I said to
them and the d M very quickly. He's a beautiful
(09:05):
photographer and creative director. And so I saw his work
and I was like, oh, I like this work. But
then I saw his face and I was like, oh,
I like updated black men, Latin men, white men. I
was with a man who for three and a half
year he's Puerto Rican and I not once tried to
speak Spanish, tried to expose my culture, do anything, and
with that person, I could not connect because I was
(09:28):
too afraid. This is the first time I've ever felt
comfortable and embracing my Latin side being with Carlos um
and it's and I'm getting pretty good at it, Thank you.
And it's only be because Carlos and I practice, you know,
practical and and like the only way no fear. You're
(09:48):
jump in. But the fear has went away because he
doesn't judge me. It says, no te cuentamentarios. I'll tell
(10:10):
you what I think. Making the race better is understanding
and not creating these barriers or even having to say
that phrase in Mexico realist contacto as Latinos. We need
to make sure we're looking at Wow. That's the first
(10:30):
time I ever said we yeah, there you go. That's crazy.
That was really just that's great. And so we had
to think about what internalized within the Latino community. Are
we saying to ourselves and believing and then passing on
that is wrong about Latinos or black people period? What
do you guys information estados? Uh, we have to learn
(11:03):
just we need to do better. We can't change what
happened before we can learn from it and try to
move forward. For being so open, Thank you, Thank you
for being When was a child, she felt she was
discriminated against because of the color of her skin and
the texture of her hair. Now, as the star of
(11:25):
love and hip, Hop Miami, which I also love. She's
using her voice to speak up for black Latinos. Welcome
a matter, Hell yeah, hearing the Loveagra born Diana dan
(11:46):
Ellis de los Santos got her start in show business
at four years old, dancing in the popular Spanish variety
series Sabado Higante, where both she and Lily were regular
cast members. People know me or I started off as
Diana los Antos back when I used to you know,
work at Salian Francisco, which, by the way, now that
I'm grown, I don't know how you did it because
(12:08):
that was a lot that why why why, I'll tell you,
I'll tell you why. Being on that platform it was young,
I learned a lot from it. I'm grateful for the opportunity.
Do you know, we know that he wasn't a you know,
the easiest cookie um, at least not for me. And
obviously no, you don't mean bored that we grown now,
(12:31):
there were many things that he could have done with
his platform to help people like myself. During choreographies, they
never knew where to place me gonna look awkward. He
was one of those that also made a lot of
those umusto Joe, because you know, ego, who's gonna go
(12:55):
against the power racist comments with racist years of forty
years ago, we didn't have this car and the people
have gotten away with it because even if you knew
it and I love all these great things, yes, but
if you had the opportunity of going to sleep and
waking up black, would you want to wake up black?
(13:16):
Would you want to be treated as a black person?
And this is where I come in where I'm like, okay,
let's have real conversations. Okay, but you were the only
black little girl and how many years? Remind me? Thirty
five years is a great accomplishment. Come on, Londo, We've
been here for the longest time. There isn't a Latin
(13:36):
country that doesn't have black people, per Rico, Cuba, every
single place in the world. And that's the part that
I feel that it's unfair. That's how LIKESTLT like. Everybody
(14:05):
was like drama and we just try to cover it up.
But a lot of us are very hypocrite, and that's
just the truth. You know what I'm saying, There is racism,
do you, sista? I would never think it. Would you
(14:27):
want your daughter, your son to marry a black person?
You know? What I'm saying. They're, oh, yeah, but she's right.
Not most people are not like most people. Most people
have the subtext of racism. Whether they tell you their face,
I'm not racist, they're feeling it in there. And and
it's the truth. This is not the pain for anybody
on this table specifically, it's for the people that are watching.
They and it's the truth. And if you're racist, don't
(14:51):
pretend to like us and really not like us. What
a We leave the same thing with the notes. I've
heard it all, and they make sure that you know
that you are the darkest one. It's like, I see
you gotta tell me, and don't get it twisted with
(15:13):
this wig that I got on right now, the badness
I got my curls. I embraced it. I played part
of the game. I know what it is. I know
that African American parents have the talk, Yes to Latino,
(15:33):
Afro Latino parents have the talk. Or Afro Latinos still black? Yes,
we still have to have that conversation. No, but do
the is my question? Listen to what you just told you,
Afro Latinos black, You'll never if you walk by a street,
(15:59):
you walk by a supermarket, or whatever. There's always a
security walk. Do you need anything, man, Do you need anything? No?
I don't. Why don't you ask somebody else? That's way
to me. I'm so passionate about it, and I don't
want to sugarcoat it. Being black, it's not being black
in America, it's not being black in Cuba, it's not
being black, and it's being black in the world. Just
see us as people, you know, Just see us as people. Man.
(16:22):
What you said is so important. Feel the fierce need
if somebody says something inappropriate to be like that is disturbing,
severely inappropriate. And also I want to ask is it
okay if I say something? Is it okay? If I
insert myself here? Because I feel like I almost have
to use my voice. But I also don't want to
make anybody uncomfortable. Whatever you feel in your heart and
(16:43):
your spirit, you do it, stand behind it, and especially
if you know that it's coming from a good place.
None of us will ever feel some type of way
because you're defending us. Because you're standing up for us,
We're grateful because no one doesn't. Growing up, you never
saw people like us select those to meet was life
and I had the honor of being able to work
for her by the way she went through a lot
(17:04):
of discrimination in Cuba and even when she had the
opportunity having a major role. I've gone to auditions, but
novelas and yes, Latino, exactly, we have like two they've
told me we went. So then here comes apart where
(17:29):
I'm because Latina, with all due respect, como como Jennifer Lopez,
como Shi, whatever it is, it doesn't look like me
to agree with you. We have grown very much, really
have we? How many black people do you see? How
many black people do you see lavelas? How many black
(17:50):
people do you see the covers of magazines? Do you
see them in movies? No? You don't us. So it's like,
have we really evolved? You? For me and I started
doing an emotional when I hear you're talking. Was super impactful.
You don't understand how important it was for me to
(18:11):
see you on love in hip hop. If I would
have had you as a kid, Jesus, but I'm so
thankful that I had you as a grown man. I
know that there's not enough and there you still are
tokenized in so many ways. But I have to tell you,
even though you are that one, and there should be more.
I'm so thankful that you are the one. Thank you
so much, thank you. I have to give you all
(18:34):
the credit in the world as well. I remember one
of the most important moments in my career was performing
with you on stage in the American wirel like you,
always make sure to give that credit to everyone, because
it takes a team to make those performances happen, and
within that team there were people like us. And even
(18:56):
though that I was very young, I shall always be
thank you. But you know what's funny, I thought it
was us, I know, sharing our African traditions and are
that's such a part of who we are, and to me,
that's celebratory. You don't know because how impactful certain moments
(19:17):
can be for people. Peopoth are gonna be amount of
the role models for the next generation. What do you
tell them? You go first, be patient with yourself and
love every part of who you are. And it might
take a little bit longer because of the negative things
you've been hearing your entire life, but know that it's
up to you to love yourself and to see the
beauty even if your family, your culture, or the world
(19:39):
around you does not make you feel like it is
okay to love who you are and except who you are.
I would say, oh, I don't get the way I
see and I would say more, I don't get the
way I see. Anything me embrace your neig to embrace it,
(20:01):
understand it, fear it as a power. God blessed you
with melanin. Melanine is a power. Understand that the world
shall come against you and you need to be prepared
for whatever is to come. Don't let anyone, anyone makes
you feel that you're less than That's the most important
thing because when you have education, you have power. I
(20:24):
want to bring out somebody that gave you your power. Mom,
even God. Yes. A Dominican mother, Anna Olaga overcame many
obstacles to help Ama pursue her dreams. She saw the
discrimination young Amera faced and taught her to love herself
by confronting racism head on. The fact that you created
(20:49):
is important. The whos mulling the chicken town like a
young Ama. No no, no, no, no, no, she's she's bro.
(21:43):
That pain that you carry is what's going to make
a difference for the people you talk to because you
lived it in your own skin. You have something to
share that Hey she did this. Look at this. You
know you're proud there you thank you for being here
and being so honest and being that force of nature
that you are a woman. This is very in a
(22:05):
hidden weed. That's good. So they know it's real. It's
real on the red thing. Dr Elizabeth Horge Freeman has
spent her life studying the effects of prejudice and racism
towards a latinos throughout the US and Latin America. Welcome,
Dr Freeman. We're so happy to have you in this
free for all. I am just so excited to be
(22:27):
part of the table. You've been listening to their stories, Yeah,
I'm sure your brain is exploding with so many facts
and statistics and things connections, please enlighten us. Listening to
both Amata stories and Chromo stories. In many ways, they
resonate with the patterns and trends that we see across
Latin America and across the United States with Afro Latinos.
(22:48):
It's the conversation about the journey learning and unlearning. Right,
so learning your history, learning to own who you are,
learning to own your body, but also to unlearn some
of the negative anti black attitudes that are expressed in
families and seen in broader society. And even when we
talk about family, oftentimes families are making decisions about who
to invest in because they're thinking about who's the better investment,
(23:12):
who has the best shot. And there were a number
of cases where you have mothers oftentimes treating their children
differently based on what they look like, and what that
would translate into with differences and how children were eating,
where they went to school, if they went to private
versus public school. You also had a case where it
wasn't just mothers. There was a father who literally gave
away his three darker scant daughters to raise his lighter
(23:34):
scanned daughters. I mean, it was a it was a
pretty brutal situation, trauma, and how can we listen to
that discrimination and families dressers are away. So education is
part of that, but that treatment is connected to the
broader social structure. Right, So this isn't about fixing families,
It's about fixing our society because in so much of
the conversation about discrimination and colorism, we focus so much
(23:57):
on color and I just want to make sure we
wreck gnizes that it's not just color it's hair, it's features,
it's lit it's literal, it's all. It's this constellation of
racial features that shape people's outcomes. And that's been the
crux of my work is to understand and unpacked how
that plays out in people's lives. What's the difference between
(24:18):
race and this is a really great question. No, let
me explain what race and ethnicity are. Both of these
categories are, first of all, constructed categories. Humans made these categories,
and what they mean actually varies depending on what country
you're coming from. So I feel like I have to
say that upfront, these are not kind of objective categories.
(24:39):
But when we talk about race, we're typically talking about
physical features, whereas ethnicity refers to culture, it refers to language,
it refers to kind of people's social experiences, and it's
often connected to geographic area. The other question that people
sometimes ask is how does nationality fit with this? Then,
if that's raised, and that's ethnicity, nationality is just about
(24:59):
your legal identity, where do you have your citizenship. Oftentimes
folks they mix up all three of these terms. They
don't understand that Latinos are a pretty heterogeneous group that
consists of lots of different racial categories. Okay, so wait,
we're so I am race for Cuban. Okay, so let's
let's break it down. Are you a Cuban citizen? No? No,
my nationalities, so you are American American? Yeah, okay, and
(25:23):
then my race, well, you're raised. What is your race?
She's part Lebanese parts. Yeah. Let's talk about physical features.
How are you read here in the United States? I
would cogor to say that you are white. You're white.
You are white. I am white. She is white. We
are white. Now your ethnicity, You're you're clearly Latina, right,
(25:45):
this is this is part of what we're here to
talk about. But even that category is interesting because some
Latinos feel like, well, I don't necessarily want to be
just subsumed in this Latino category because in some ways
that Latino ethnicity subsumes Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, all
these had. Of course, it just thrown into this Lettino ethnicity.
It's a convenient that we created. Issue becomes that folks
(26:06):
don't see black folks. It's equal because they don't have
the opportunity to see us possibly at the same level.
Those are the games. They are today that by the way,
I wish that we could continue this conversation all day,
me too. But the words I'm taken away from this
(26:28):
communication love and unity and support for each other and allies.
Thank you God, amo Amada, Dr Hoorge Freeman for sharing
your stories. This is a tough conversation that we need
to continue to have in order for things to change.
So thank you for being here and for pouring out
(26:49):
your hearts to us. And we want to end this
red Table with a special performance by my beautiful Emily
singing her song I just wanted to be over. It's
one of my favorites that she's at. In college, I
had an experience with a friend of mine who was
dark skin. We went to eat in a restaurant, got
our food to lend, which the waitress came over and said,
(27:09):
you guys need to go. You're not welcome to eat here.
And I literally was like why, And she looked at
my friend and touched her skin, and it really made
me feel the need to use my voice and put
my anger from that experience on paper and try to
get it to as many people as possible to show
that not only my an ally, but this is bothersome
(27:29):
and we need to speak up as human beings. H
m hm hm forward dreams made believe. Moving on with
(28:05):
something weird, to come to terms of the absurd is
from freedom, yet somehow disturbed fifty two, twenty twenty new
gets are in numbers in between. When will the jest
reveal its in equating triumph with the color of a skin.
I just find it to be over. I just find
(28:30):
it to be true, to be through. I just want
it to be over, to be to be foo. Hey,
(28:50):
it's me family, tree blue with ladder fluid on my greens.
I hide the roots aground me to this earth. I
fear the only redetermined gives the bird. It's not too
late to right their arms of faith forgetful. This is
the only Manda lame increases Sue that's focusing and raise
(29:11):
your girls. To feed my Tina lu thanky. To be
a bad, to be frud, to be's rude. I just
want to I just want to be fo to be rude,
(29:43):
m just blue, just to be all the, to be true,
(30:45):
to be frue. I just want it to be all the,
to be cool, to be to be through, to be food,
(31:08):
to be his friend, to be food, Thanks for listening.
To join the red Table Talk family and become a
part of the conversation, follow us at Facebook, dot com,
forward slash, red table Talk, Stefans. Red Table Talk via
(31:31):
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Vendos me and then Gloria Stefan. Here you are listening
to Red Table Talk via Stephans Podcast, all your favorite
episodes from our Facebook watch show in audio. They make
sure that you know that you are the darkest one. Colorism,
the disturbing truth. We don't talk about my grandmo. Let say,
(00:22):
don't go outside and don't darken on my family. And
I still get emotional right now because you think I'm
a kid. Afro Latinos speak out about the discrimination they
face within their own community because whatever it is, it
doesn't look like me. Our culture secret exposed at the
(00:43):
Red Table. A lot of us are very hypocrite. Why
why there is racism? They don't pretend to like us
and really not like us. Latino that is a term
(01:03):
that unites all Latinos, regardless of nationality or skin color.
It's about a shared culture and a sense of belonging.
But let's be clear, being Latino is not a race.
There are black Latinos, white Latinos in every shade in between.
One in four US Hispanics identify as Afro Latino, and
two thirds of Hispanics with darker skin colors report discrimination
(01:28):
common yet racist phrases such as major lassa or improving
the race encouraged generations of Latinos to value European features
and skin tone. One survey showed that of dark skinned
individuals were viewed as less intelligent and therefore less worthy.
(01:49):
Lank what case is self hot. This is what colorism
looks like. It may not be something we want to acknowledge,
but that's exactly why we wanted to bring it to
the table. We cannot know what it's like to be
in the skin of darker Latinos because we were born
(02:13):
like this. In Latino families, you can have someone with
very dark skin, you could have someone with very light skin,
and they can be brother and sister. That dynamic within
the family can cause your family to treat you different.
People looking from the outside to treat you different, Which
is why we need to use this platform to amplify
this issue, because I don't know what that feels like.
(02:34):
It breaks my heart to think that after Latinos feel
racism in their own family because you think of racism
as a general thing in society or we need happens
in your own family is very difficult. Is that feeling
of being the trauma of being oppressed. As humans, we
tend to get close to what makes us comfortable, and
(02:57):
sometimes we treat different as less them, and that is
one of the biggest issues in the world. This is
something that needs to be gutted from the inside out
because they're dealing with things in their life that we
will never know merely as a result of the color
of their skin. Here we go, girls. Caramo is best
known as the culture expert on the hit show Queer Eye,
(03:18):
which I love. But what you may not know is
that Catamo's grandmother was Cuban. For most of his life,
he rejected his Latin roots because of the racism he
felt within his own family. Welcome to the table, baby,
I am loving this switter. Thank you, I appreciate it
so much. I'm trying to be a little sexy and
(03:39):
at your grandma's Cuban and int oping Jamaica Yes Ja Jamaica. Yeah.
And she uh er, yes, she she was, but she
was lighter growing up. I felt very embarrassed even today,
to be honest, talking to the producers and talking to people.
Every time they refer to me as Afro Latino or Latino,
I get very uncomfortable still to this something new. It's
(04:01):
very new. Your Latino family did not accept you. Not
accept sounds deliberate. I don't think they understood what they
were doing, but it was this subliminal, unconscious, internalized racism
that was in them. Do you feel like within your family,
if somebody's lighter, you know, they'll joke and be like, oh,
you know, because you're the darker one and I'm the
(04:21):
lighter one. And that of course, of course, for me,
playing outside as a kid was nerve wracking because my
grandmother would say, don't go outside and don't darken up
my family. Don't darken up my family. Don't darken up
my family. So I would not go outside until after
five pm because then the sun would be less. And
I still get emotional right now because you think, I'm
(04:43):
a kid and I should not have to be thinking
about not going outside and playing because I don't want
to get darker. So that my grandmother doesn't say a comment.
Maybe she even thought she was trying to protect it,
and that's what it was, and in her mind to
thinking that it was going to be better for you
to be lighter. Her intention was to protect me, to
(05:06):
to try to say things that she thought was going
to help me. But the impact is that it destroyed
me emotionally. But it also made me feel like I
wasn't connected to my culture. Intention versus impact, that is huge.
My family is to say, oh, your nose, and my grandmother,
even my mother would squeeze my nose. But it was
(05:28):
because it's more my nose is more African, my nose
is more black. And for many years I kept saying
to myself, I need to know Jack. I did not
know where that internalized hatred I had for myself was
coming from your drama. I mean, we don't realize it,
but you know it starts with the family that people
around you. You know, like those experiences are going to
(05:48):
mark you for the rest of your life. I'm the
only boy. I have sisters, and they range from very
light to I have one sister who's the darkness and
her treatment was the worst. The reason that I am
the person on where I that has the emotional and
mental conversations is because I understand the trauma and damage
where maybe and not to discount my sisters who are lighter,
(06:09):
they didn't experience because they were well Nita. There were
all these things that were for me. I didn't hear
those things as often. But you're gorgeous, appreciate. Have you
ever been told that you couldn't possibly be lat you
know because you're blank. Yes, it wasn't even a question.
(06:31):
It's immediately like no, no, no, you're Jamaican, there's no
Cuban and it's an easy way just to dismiss me
and discriminate me. That's why I love what you're doing here,
because there's so many people who are going to watch
you here this for the first time and say, oh,
this is a problem. Maybe I shouldn't be making these comments.
And so what I love about this conversation is that
for those individuals who are experiencing their mental health, their
(06:52):
emotional health being damaged, this is a moment where you
can understand that you are beautiful as you are. Because
it's a journey that I'm going on right now to
love myself because of the internalized racism that I heard
and experience from my Latin side, and I started to say,
I have to build myself back up conversations like this
where I look at you all and you look like
(07:13):
people my family and you're affirming me for the first time,
It's like, Okay, I'm getting chills, I'm getting emotional. It's
like I feel included. You have to go through a
process after trauma to understand it, to turn it into
something meaningful, to then be able to help somebody else.
You don't just live like this, go through trauma and
then oh, sure, I'm fine, I'm unaffective. Build however, you
(07:37):
change it with your sons. I tell them the skin
is gorgeous, the darker it's beautiful. I want to make
sure they hear it. And I realized it's important the
language I have in my home. I no longer allow
other family members, cousins, aunt's, uncle's, anyone to make comments
to my kids and me to walk away. It's important
for me now to be respectful of my family, especially
(07:59):
those who are older, but to also say, this is
why that is hurtful, this is why it is damaging,
and this is why I'm hoping we can talk about
why you think that's okay to say, and how you
changing that could actually make us a stronger. Fact, because
a stronger because families there but they're comparing. There's something
I say to people all the time. Comparison is the
(08:20):
thief of joy. If you want to steal the joy
from your family, whether it's their skin tone, whether it's
their education. Keep comparing your kids and see if you
don't steal the joy and the love that's in your home.
And let's try to be better. Let's try to really
think about what we're saying to each other as human beings.
I understand that your boyfriend Carlos is with you. Yes,
we have him join us because it would be so
(08:41):
relevant to this conversation. How god like beautiful couple it is.
How did you guys meet on Instagram? I said to
them and the d M very quickly. He's a beautiful
(09:05):
photographer and creative director. And so I saw his work
and I was like, oh, I like this work. But
then I saw his face and I was like, oh,
I like updated black men, Latin men, white men. I
was with a man who for three and a half
year he's Puerto Rican and I not once tried to
speak Spanish, tried to expose my culture, do anything, and
with that person, I could not connect because I was
(09:28):
too afraid. This is the first time I've ever felt
comfortable and embracing my Latin side being with Carlos um
and it's and I'm getting pretty good at it, Thank you.
And it's only be because Carlos and I practice, you know,
practical and and like the only way no fear. You're
(09:48):
jump in. But the fear has went away because he
doesn't judge me. It says, no te cuentamentarios. I'll tell
(10:10):
you what I think. Making the race better is understanding
and not creating these barriers or even having to say
that phrase in Mexico realist contacto as Latinos. We need
to make sure we're looking at Wow. That's the first
(10:30):
time I ever said we yeah, there you go. That's crazy.
That was really just that's great. And so we had
to think about what internalized within the Latino community. Are
we saying to ourselves and believing and then passing on
that is wrong about Latinos or black people period? What
do you guys information estados? Uh, we have to learn
(11:03):
just we need to do better. We can't change what
happened before we can learn from it and try to
move forward. For being so open, Thank you, Thank you
for being When was a child, she felt she was
discriminated against because of the color of her skin and
the texture of her hair. Now, as the star of
(11:25):
love and hip, Hop Miami, which I also love. She's
using her voice to speak up for black Latinos. Welcome
a matter, Hell yeah, hearing the Loveagra born Diana dan
(11:46):
Ellis de los Santos got her start in show business
at four years old, dancing in the popular Spanish variety
series Sabado Higante, where both she and Lily were regular
cast members. People know me or I started off as
Diana los Antos back when I used to you know,
work at Salian Francisco, which, by the way, now that
I'm grown, I don't know how you did it because
(12:08):
that was a lot that why why why, I'll tell you,
I'll tell you why. Being on that platform it was young,
I learned a lot from it. I'm grateful for the opportunity.
Do you know, we know that he wasn't a you know,
the easiest cookie um, at least not for me. And
obviously no, you don't mean bored that we grown now,
(12:31):
there were many things that he could have done with
his platform to help people like myself. During choreographies, they
never knew where to place me gonna look awkward. He
was one of those that also made a lot of
those umusto Joe, because you know, ego, who's gonna go
(12:55):
against the power racist comments with racist years of forty
years ago, we didn't have this car and the people
have gotten away with it because even if you knew
it and I love all these great things, yes, but
if you had the opportunity of going to sleep and
waking up black, would you want to wake up black?
(13:16):
Would you want to be treated as a black person?
And this is where I come in where I'm like, okay,
let's have real conversations. Okay, but you were the only
black little girl and how many years? Remind me? Thirty
five years is a great accomplishment. Come on, Londo, We've
been here for the longest time. There isn't a Latin
(13:36):
country that doesn't have black people, per Rico, Cuba, every
single place in the world. And that's the part that
I feel that it's unfair. That's how LIKESTLT like. Everybody
(14:05):
was like drama and we just try to cover it up.
But a lot of us are very hypocrite, and that's
just the truth. You know what I'm saying, There is racism,
do you, sista? I would never think it. Would you
(14:27):
want your daughter, your son to marry a black person?
You know? What I'm saying. They're, oh, yeah, but she's right.
Not most people are not like most people. Most people
have the subtext of racism. Whether they tell you their face,
I'm not racist, they're feeling it in there. And and
it's the truth. This is not the pain for anybody
on this table specifically, it's for the people that are watching.
They and it's the truth. And if you're racist, don't
(14:51):
pretend to like us and really not like us. What
a We leave the same thing with the notes. I've
heard it all, and they make sure that you know
that you are the darkest one. It's like, I see
you gotta tell me, and don't get it twisted with
(15:13):
this wig that I got on right now, the badness
I got my curls. I embraced it. I played part
of the game. I know what it is. I know
that African American parents have the talk, Yes to Latino,
(15:33):
Afro Latino parents have the talk. Or Afro Latinos still black? Yes,
we still have to have that conversation. No, but do
the is my question? Listen to what you just told you,
Afro Latinos black, You'll never if you walk by a street,
(15:59):
you walk by a supermarket, or whatever. There's always a
security walk. Do you need anything, man, Do you need anything? No?
I don't. Why don't you ask somebody else? That's way
to me. I'm so passionate about it, and I don't
want to sugarcoat it. Being black, it's not being black
in America, it's not being black in Cuba, it's not
being black, and it's being black in the world. Just
see us as people, you know, Just see us as people. Man.
(16:22):
What you said is so important. Feel the fierce need
if somebody says something inappropriate to be like that is disturbing,
severely inappropriate. And also I want to ask is it
okay if I say something? Is it okay? If I
insert myself here? Because I feel like I almost have
to use my voice. But I also don't want to
make anybody uncomfortable. Whatever you feel in your heart and
(16:43):
your spirit, you do it, stand behind it, and especially
if you know that it's coming from a good place.
None of us will ever feel some type of way
because you're defending us. Because you're standing up for us,
We're grateful because no one doesn't. Growing up, you never
saw people like us select those to meet was life
and I had the honor of being able to work
for her by the way she went through a lot
(17:04):
of discrimination in Cuba and even when she had the
opportunity having a major role. I've gone to auditions, but
novelas and yes, Latino, exactly, we have like two they've
told me we went. So then here comes apart where
(17:29):
I'm because Latina, with all due respect, como como Jennifer Lopez,
como Shi, whatever it is, it doesn't look like me
to agree with you. We have grown very much, really
have we? How many black people do you see? How
many black people do you see lavelas? How many black
(17:50):
people do you see the covers of magazines? Do you
see them in movies? No? You don't us. So it's like,
have we really evolved? You? For me and I started
doing an emotional when I hear you're talking. Was super impactful.
You don't understand how important it was for me to
(18:11):
see you on love in hip hop. If I would
have had you as a kid, Jesus, but I'm so
thankful that I had you as a grown man. I
know that there's not enough and there you still are
tokenized in so many ways. But I have to tell you,
even though you are that one, and there should be more.
I'm so thankful that you are the one. Thank you
so much, thank you. I have to give you all
(18:34):
the credit in the world as well. I remember one
of the most important moments in my career was performing
with you on stage in the American wirel like you,
always make sure to give that credit to everyone, because
it takes a team to make those performances happen, and
within that team there were people like us. And even
(18:56):
though that I was very young, I shall always be
thank you. But you know what's funny, I thought it
was us, I know, sharing our African traditions and are
that's such a part of who we are, and to me,
that's celebratory. You don't know because how impactful certain moments
(19:17):
can be for people. Peopoth are gonna be amount of
the role models for the next generation. What do you
tell them? You go first, be patient with yourself and
love every part of who you are. And it might
take a little bit longer because of the negative things
you've been hearing your entire life, but know that it's
up to you to love yourself and to see the
beauty even if your family, your culture, or the world
(19:39):
around you does not make you feel like it is
okay to love who you are and except who you are.
I would say, oh, I don't get the way I
see and I would say more, I don't get the
way I see. Anything me embrace your neig to embrace it,
(20:01):
understand it, fear it as a power. God blessed you
with melanin. Melanine is a power. Understand that the world
shall come against you and you need to be prepared
for whatever is to come. Don't let anyone, anyone makes
you feel that you're less than That's the most important
thing because when you have education, you have power. I
(20:24):
want to bring out somebody that gave you your power. Mom,
even God. Yes. A Dominican mother, Anna Olaga overcame many
obstacles to help Ama pursue her dreams. She saw the
discrimination young Amera faced and taught her to love herself
by confronting racism head on. The fact that you created
(20:49):
is important. The whos mulling the chicken town like a
young Ama. No no, no, no, no, no, she's she's bro.
(21:43):
That pain that you carry is what's going to make
a difference for the people you talk to because you
lived it in your own skin. You have something to
share that Hey she did this. Look at this. You
know you're proud there you thank you for being here
and being so honest and being that force of nature
that you are a woman. This is very in a
(22:05):
hidden weed. That's good. So they know it's real. It's
real on the red thing. Dr Elizabeth Horge Freeman has
spent her life studying the effects of prejudice and racism
towards a latinos throughout the US and Latin America. Welcome,
Dr Freeman. We're so happy to have you in this
free for all. I am just so excited to be
(22:27):
part of the table. You've been listening to their stories, Yeah,
I'm sure your brain is exploding with so many facts
and statistics and things connections, please enlighten us. Listening to
both Amata stories and Chromo stories. In many ways, they
resonate with the patterns and trends that we see across
Latin America and across the United States with Afro Latinos.
(22:48):
It's the conversation about the journey learning and unlearning. Right,
so learning your history, learning to own who you are,
learning to own your body, but also to unlearn some
of the negative anti black attitudes that are expressed in
families and seen in broader society. And even when we
talk about family, oftentimes families are making decisions about who
to invest in because they're thinking about who's the better investment,
(23:12):
who has the best shot. And there were a number
of cases where you have mothers oftentimes treating their children
differently based on what they look like, and what that
would translate into with differences and how children were eating,
where they went to school, if they went to private
versus public school. You also had a case where it
wasn't just mothers. There was a father who literally gave
away his three darker scant daughters to raise his lighter
(23:34):
scanned daughters. I mean, it was a it was a
pretty brutal situation, trauma, and how can we listen to
that discrimination and families dressers are away. So education is
part of that, but that treatment is connected to the
broader social structure. Right, So this isn't about fixing families,
It's about fixing our society because in so much of
the conversation about discrimination and colorism, we focus so much
(23:57):
on color and I just want to make sure we
wreck gnizes that it's not just color it's hair, it's features,
it's lit it's literal, it's all. It's this constellation of
racial features that shape people's outcomes. And that's been the
crux of my work is to understand and unpacked how
that plays out in people's lives. What's the difference between
(24:18):
race and this is a really great question. No, let
me explain what race and ethnicity are. Both of these
categories are, first of all, constructed categories. Humans made these categories,
and what they mean actually varies depending on what country
you're coming from. So I feel like I have to
say that upfront, these are not kind of objective categories.
(24:39):
But when we talk about race, we're typically talking about
physical features, whereas ethnicity refers to culture, it refers to language,
it refers to kind of people's social experiences, and it's
often connected to geographic area. The other question that people
sometimes ask is how does nationality fit with this? Then,
if that's raised, and that's ethnicity, nationality is just about
(24:59):
your legal identity, where do you have your citizenship. Oftentimes
folks they mix up all three of these terms. They
don't understand that Latinos are a pretty heterogeneous group that
consists of lots of different racial categories. Okay, so wait,
we're so I am race for Cuban. Okay, so let's
let's break it down. Are you a Cuban citizen? No? No,
my nationalities, so you are American American? Yeah, okay, and
(25:23):
then my race, well, you're raised. What is your race?
She's part Lebanese parts. Yeah. Let's talk about physical features.
How are you read here in the United States? I
would cogor to say that you are white. You're white.
You are white. I am white. She is white. We
are white. Now your ethnicity, You're you're clearly Latina, right,
(25:45):
this is this is part of what we're here to
talk about. But even that category is interesting because some
Latinos feel like, well, I don't necessarily want to be
just subsumed in this Latino category because in some ways
that Latino ethnicity subsumes Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, all
these had. Of course, it just thrown into this Lettino ethnicity.
It's a convenient that we created. Issue becomes that folks
(26:06):
don't see black folks. It's equal because they don't have
the opportunity to see us possibly at the same level.
Those are the games. They are today that by the way,
I wish that we could continue this conversation all day,
me too. But the words I'm taken away from this
(26:28):
communication love and unity and support for each other and allies.
Thank you God, amo Amada, Dr Hoorge Freeman for sharing
your stories. This is a tough conversation that we need
to continue to have in order for things to change.
So thank you for being here and for pouring out
(26:49):
your hearts to us. And we want to end this
red Table with a special performance by my beautiful Emily
singing her song I just wanted to be over. It's
one of my favorites that she's at. In college, I
had an experience with a friend of mine who was
dark skin. We went to eat in a restaurant, got
our food to lend, which the waitress came over and said,
(27:09):
you guys need to go. You're not welcome to eat here.
And I literally was like why, And she looked at
my friend and touched her skin, and it really made
me feel the need to use my voice and put
my anger from that experience on paper and try to
get it to as many people as possible to show
that not only my an ally, but this is bothersome
(27:29):
and we need to speak up as human beings. H
m hm hm forward dreams made believe. Moving on with
(28:05):
something weird, to come to terms of the absurd is
from freedom, yet somehow disturbed fifty two, twenty twenty new
gets are in numbers in between. When will the jest
reveal its in equating triumph with the color of a skin.
I just find it to be over. I just find
(28:30):
it to be true, to be through. I just want
it to be over, to be to be foo. Hey,
(28:50):
it's me family, tree blue with ladder fluid on my greens.
I hide the roots aground me to this earth. I
fear the only redetermined gives the bird. It's not too
late to right their arms of faith forgetful. This is
the only Manda lame increases Sue that's focusing and raise
(29:11):
your girls. To feed my Tina lu thanky. To be
a bad, to be frud, to be's rude. I just
want to I just want to be fo to be rude,
(29:43):
m just blue, just to be all the, to be true,
(30:45):
to be frue. I just want it to be all the,
to be cool, to be to be through, to be food,
(31:08):
to be his friend, to be food, Thanks for listening.
To join the red Table Talk family and become a
part of the conversation, follow us at Facebook, dot com,
forward slash, red table Talk, Stefans. Red Table Talk via
(31:31):
Steffans is a production of Westbrook Studios in partnership with
I Heart Radio's Michael Dura podcast Network. For more podcasts
from my Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
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