November 17, 2021 • 25 mins
How well do you know the men in your life? In a RTTE first, the Estefans invite only men to the Table for a vulnerable and eye-opening conversation. Superstar Mexican boxer, Canelo Alvarez, shares a side of himself most don’t know. Actor and author, Justin Baldoni, has a warning for parents of boys and reveals how he never felt “man enough” growing up. It’s real talk where men actually open up about their feelings.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Venidos Me and Gloria Stefan. Here you are listening to
Red Table Talk via Stefens Podcast, all your favorite episodes
from our Facebook watch show in audio. How well do
you really know the men in your life? I wanted
to be stronger, tougher, harrier, and also resenting my dad
because he wasn't that lumberjack guy. Inside The Minds of
(00:21):
Men with actor Justin Baldoni and superstar Boxer Can the
Tough and the Sweden for a rare conversation where men
actually talk about their feelings with people. Something and the
two words we need to stop saying to our men.
(00:42):
I cried in front of my girlfriend. She actually told
me to manna. Today we're doing something we've never done before.
We've invited only men to the table to talk about
what it means to be a man. Because for generations,
men have been conditioned to be seen as strong, rugged, independent, fearless,
(01:03):
and as masculine as possible traits that, when taken too far,
can lead to aggression, violence, physical and mental health issues,
and suicide, quite literally toxic masculinity. But many men today
are challenging those traditional ideas of manhood. A recent g
Q survey showed that one third of the men said
(01:26):
they wanted to be described as gentle, while only eight
percent wanted to be macho. In today's world, famous and
powerful men equally share parenting duties, where dresses, apply makeup,
and crying all in public, strength or sensitivity, fearlessness or feelings?
What does it mean to be a real man in
(01:47):
today's world? Joining the Red Table to help men find
a happy medium is Mexican superstar boxer Canello Albares ranked
as the number one boxer fighting today. Canelo Alvarez pulls
no punches when inside the ring, and his upcoming November
six fight against Caleb Plant has history on the line.
(02:09):
The winner of this bout is said to become the
first undisputed super middleweight champion in boxing history. A victory
in this fight would secure Carnello's legacy as one of
the greatest boxers of all time. But this fierce fighter
shows an entirely different side outside the ring. Canelo is
an affectionate father who dotes on his wife and three children.
(02:34):
Is the tough and the sweetest and the sweetest istorica
who's tantalis little. They would be in your relemented came
(03:06):
personally the questo peroo, the mira elca como repetaas el
(03:27):
carino cats ela those canelos not economic con s yes,
impression almost completed to not care former two pences grea
(04:13):
do you pences cinto calias and your second to it
is mala familiar noises responsible what I mean excellent the
(04:45):
Palace two temple club not too free, not free level
commonly parentalecause it's the course you can also compute. Look
(05:15):
so it took like Plantlement of Los Angeles, come to
Chris get machismo lab sometimes annual allowed personal move people.
(05:53):
I'm gonna need to corea qual majority at the machesmoke
cricket okay, combat depending plate court away the cano to
(06:32):
gris gets connecta conto centimientos the connect them more ego
con your home rose into coral can your legal for me? Really,
(06:59):
I mean your admittance for locate to represent us. You're
okaya jose rrno joran claro momentary easily it is Carlo, yes,
(07:52):
oh god, definiteante ello jovida as they ye canello to
(08:20):
Slui phisi case cambia si ermano amazing And you know
(08:42):
what it comes from a place of being so humble,
and he said something that really called my attention. If
you want to change as a man, you have to
want to do it. A lot of them they just
don't want to change. He also spoke about machismo starting
in the home, how we raise our boys and girls,
and the fact that he's comfortable crying, like, but now
(09:04):
we have another delicious male as resident Heartthrob Raphael on
the beloved series Jane the Virgin, which I had the
honor to be on. Justin Baldoni called the eye of
many women and probably quite a few mento. Justin has
made it his mission to reach men and help create
(09:25):
positive change, exploring traditional masculinity and reimagining what it means
to be a man in one Welcome Justin to the table.
Thank you so much for having me. I wish I
could be with you in person. We're going to get
to the book that you wrote that I find amazing
(09:46):
and so incredible and so needed right now. But I
want to hear about Europe bringing. I grew up in
l a and then we moved to Oregon when I
was ten, and so I got to experience kind of
like the liberal and conservative mindsets, and when we moved
to kind of more of the conservative area of the country,
where a lot of the dads were like rough and
tumble and lumberjack kind of guys and worked with their hands,
(10:06):
and my dad was more of an entrepreneur. I remember
just feeling like I didn't fit in because I wanted
to be bigger, stronger, tougher, harrier that eventually happened um,
and and also resenting my dad because he wasn't that
lumberjack guy. And so growing up having that dichotomy of
wanting my dad to be tougher, wanting him to teach
me how to fight, teach me at hunt, and feeling
(10:26):
like there was something wrong with me because I wasn't
naturally that thing because where I grew up, the box
was you need to be strong, tough, hairy, smoke to tobacco,
drink beers every weekend, go camping, you know, shoot, dear,
to be man enough. There are statistics about how these
pressures imposed on men have negative health repercussions. Things that
(10:51):
you're mentioning, even like chewing tobacco and drinking and encouraging
men over time to do that is leading to lower
life expectancies. What would you tell young boys so that
we can teach them and teach women as well. Oh,
thank you, Emily. This is an interesting question because men
have really been trained and brought up to be robots,
(11:11):
to be emotionless, and women have been brought up to be,
in many ways the opposite. All of us boys have
been taught to do that for self preservation, because showing
emotion is weak, because being sensitive is weak, when in reality,
us men are deeply insecure. We just can't admit it
to anybody because admitting it would then be counterproductive to
(11:34):
all of the socialization that we've been taught. Because we've
been taught we have to be strong and confident and
brave and tough and take fiscal risks and know all
the answers and take up space and you name it.
And you've been called brave because you're challenging this traditional masculinity.
How do you define brave? I would argue that one
of the bravest, strongest things you could do is admit
(11:57):
your weakness to another man, because that is when everything
is on the line. We train as athletes, we spent
all of this time reinforcing the idea that we gotta work, work, work, work, work,
put in the work, getting the gym every day, hustle, hustle, hustle.
But we don't do it emotionally, God forbid. We put
in the same amount of work and the gym as
we do in our hearts. So it's so much about
(12:18):
reframing the narrative, understanding that this is not about saying
you as a man are bad or wrong. But at
the end of the day, we have to look at
the world and we've got to look at the fact
that one in four women, over the course of their
lifetime has a very high probability of being raped. We
men are doing this. But if we're the problem, then
what I would argue and what I would offer to
men is that we're also the solution. And all of
(12:41):
you women know there's nothing men love more than finding solutions.
So I would like to invite men in and not
attack and call men out justin. I got so excited
when I heard that the Spanish version of your book
Men Enough is now available everywhere. Tell everyone about the
book because I read it and I love it. You
(13:02):
mentioned about undefining what do you mean with with that
particular choice of word, because it's fascinating to me, and
it's a very astute. When I first started this journey
with masculinity, I thought I wanted to to redefine what
it meant to be a man. The way that we've
been brainwashed and socialized to believe that we have to
(13:23):
be as men has created a box, a very rigid
definition of masculinity. For me, undefining it simply means to
take ourselves out of the box. Because if you really
think about it, masculinity is a performance. Why because we
have to earn it, because it is subject to somebody
else's approval. Even the word emasculated that means that somebody
(13:47):
can take away my masculinity. Well, if I'm going through
the world thinking that my masculinity has to be proven
in every place that I go, that I'm not born
with it, that I'm already coming from a place of lack,
I'm already coming from insecurity because I don't have enough
of it. That we're always trying to like prove an
exercise dominance over somebody else, and we'll never get to
(14:08):
the top. If we're gonna do better, we have to
change exactly what you're talking about. That dynamic. Yeah, just
think I'm listening to you, and I think this is
the hardest thing you're ever going to do in your
life to try to connect with the men. You're right,
it's not easy. It's I question why I'm doing this
all the time, because really, at the end of the day,
(14:29):
I am going up against the very people I want
to be accepted by. And that's a really hard thing
for us two men, because we want to be accepted
by other men. And so that's why, as an example,
you have some you have silence when other men say things,
um that are sexist or racist, when you see other
(14:50):
men maybe treating women certain ways. There's so much silence
because of the fear of going up against other men.
And for me doing this work is terrifying also because
most men that don't actually listen fully to what I
have to say or read the book just assume that
I'm doing it for money or fame or to try
(15:11):
to get laid, which is what I get that all
the time, which is hilarious, and not understanding that at
the root of this is is actually my desire to
set myself free. And by the way, women are just
as guilty because there is this whole mystique to a
woman about you know, the big magic comes and sweeps
(15:32):
you off your feet and you don't have to worry
about anything the rest of your life because he's going
to have all the answers. What role do you think
the modern rising femininity plays in today's masculinity. Well, first
of all, I love where this conversation is going, and
something that my wife and I talk a lot about,
what's the woman's role here. We can't separate ourselves from
the idea that we're all raised in the same system.
(15:54):
Women have their own version of internalized misogyny, which is
you're raised in a culture that teaches you that you
need to be protected. But it's also true because you
do need to be protected. And this idea that women
want to feel protected is real. But the idea that
we're raising our next generation to protect means that we're
too late. It's a band aid to a deeper problem. Right.
(16:16):
We have to actually stop it at its source, which
means we have to be teaching our young boys to
stand up to other boys. But what I do want
to say is this, it's really important. A lot of
the messages I get from men are okay, justin I
need your home. I cried in front of my girlfriend
or my wife or um, I did this thing, and
I was vulnerable, and she actually she she actually told
(16:40):
me to man up. And so what it comes down
to is you got to go all the way back
to the source and recognize that like when we're raising
these boys, when we're raising our children, we have to
allow them to feel, allow them to cry, and ourselves
we have to find spaces where we can let it out.
I know how good I feel after I cry. When
you have one of those days that you know that
(17:01):
you're talking to our friends and they just go, you
know what, just let it out, Let it out, let
it out. But if I would see a guy, I mean,
I was looking at you, and I'm thinking, if I
would see a guy doing the same thing, yeah, I
think I would say I would let it out. But
I would be like, no, no, no, no, I think
I would feel uncomfortable if you know, like, I really
(17:23):
want to help you because you're you understand a woman,
but I exactly brave of you to admit it. May
that's where we started, right, I wouldn't un understand if
I'm doing the right thing telling the guy, yes, let
it up. There's a responsibility here of understanding that us
men can't make that move. We can't like step into
(17:43):
that part of ourselves. We can't be vulnerable, especially with
the woman, if the woman also has been socialized to
see that his weakness. And I think this really exists
in the machismo culture, especially from a lot of my
conversations with Latin men and women, this idea of these roles,
because if you're trained to see that as weakness as
(18:04):
a woman and as a man, you're taught you can't
ever go there, then our gap is too big. We'll
never get there. So I think that there's a little
bit of work on both parts, and it's about time
that we embrace vulnerability of strength. I think that we
need to be teaching our boys to feel to cry. Emily,
you brought up earlier this idea of um physical ailments
being linked to masculinity, and there were studies that were
(18:27):
done in the eighties that show that the tears that
we cry as children, as human beings, actually contain stress hormones. Wow,
the tears that we need to cry when we're children
are actually our body telling us we have to release something,
and those stress hormones. When they're not released, they lead
to things like cancer and heart disease and you name it.
(18:50):
What have you found about masculinity and mental health of men?
Like how the expectations of masculinity, what it does to
your head? Well, the greatest myth of masculinity is that
we have to do it alone, that we can't ask
for help. Here's the beautiful thing. I'm on a healing
journey trying to understand my own trauma. Why I act
(19:11):
the way that I act because I'm tired of hurting
people that I love. And the deeper I go in,
the more I replace that energy and time I used
to spend on my body with going in and healing
the parts of myself that have been broken for years,
the little Justine that has been screaming for love and
attention and compassion. The more I heal that, the more
I recognize that my desire for influence and success and
(19:37):
for money and all of that is really just a
trauma response, and all of ours is, if we really
think about it, there was a part of us that
wasn't seen growing up, And so for me, I recognize
that I'm the most at peace when I'm telling the
truth and when I'm encouraging truthful, honest conversations. We all
have a job to do, which is we have to
(19:57):
go in first, and we have to recognize it's our
job to heal. It's not our partner's job, it's not
somebody else's job. And the most manly thing we can
do is recognize that we have stuff we have to
work out and we need somebody else's help to do that. Absolutely,
I'm not an expert. I'm a guy that's just on
a journey trying to heal and trying to unlearn. And
I hope that people are willing to talk to experts
(20:19):
and therapists and go and go deep because the world
needs us to heal. Well you are. You may not
be an expert, but you are starting the conversation. But
since I love my experts too, we're going to bring
one to the table. Dr Michael Eric Dyson serves as
a Distinguished Professor at Vanderbilt University and has authored over
(20:40):
twenty books. His new book, Entertaining Race Performing Blackness in
America explores the challenges that many men face, especially in
the African American community. Welcome Dr Dyson with Justin at
the table. What is your first reaction to everything you've
been hearing. Look, it's an extraordinarily necessary conversation to have because,
(21:02):
as they say in the streets, stakes is high. The
consequences of this are not just theoretical, not just philosophical.
They're in our bodies, there in our relationships, there are
our homes. Men's conception of masculinity has a profound impact
on how we view the world, how we share power
or don't, how we view women or don't. What is masculinity? You? Well, look,
(21:27):
it's a variety of things, is what Justice has been
speaking about. It's in process, right, Russell Westbrook a tremendous
basketball player during fashion week, Oh my god, he's wearing
a dress robbing. Way before then, you were a little girl,
Emilia had to wear a surrong in order to go
into the restaurant. Men, no doubt about it. So I
(21:50):
welcome the opportunity for men to relieve the burden of
having to carry the mythology that we know it all,
that we can think at all. As you were saying, Elier,
that you have to do it by yourself, to have partnership,
to ask other people, to reach out, to ask questions.
That's extremely important in terms of redefining masculinity. And I
(22:11):
listened to brother Justin brilliantly deconstruct masculinity and ask questions
about what we as men should do and what we
should be about. And I can't help but think about
the way in which race makes a difference even there,
because as a white guy, you're presumed to have a
certain kind of power and authority, and therefore you can
give it up easily. But if you're a Latino, if
(22:33):
you're African American, if you're a black person, if you're
a person of color, and as a man, you haven't
been granted from birth the same prerequisites and the same
presumptions about your masculinity that you can so easily lay
it down because we needn't got it yet. So it's
been a fascinating conversation, and it's so necessary for all
of us to ask serious questions about the destructive character
(22:56):
of our toxic masculinity, poisonous patriarch key, and the way
in which our masculinities have punished as much as they
have relieved and punished every male professor. How about if
you start doing that as a man and the woman
tells you you just said, we'll show me how because
you're more of a man than me. That's when it's
(23:20):
the woman's responsibility, because it's both sides. You know, we
can't play into it not already. That continued masculinity is
never a one way conversation. It's a dual conversation. It's
a tripard conversation. It's a conversation with the culture our
women in our lives tell us manner, step up to
the plate, be a responsible human being. How do you
claim that part of your masculinity that says I want
(23:42):
to nurture and protect, I want to love my loved ones,
I want to protect my children at the same time
express it in a way that allows them the freedom
to say, I'm gonna claim to be who I am.
I'm not going to be limited by earlier visions of
manhood that restrict my ability to be free. Just then,
what have you found the response to be, what do
(24:03):
you think is happening? Is it getting better? What I'm
seeing happen is men are hurting so much right now
because they've never had an outlet, They've never been able
to talk about this stuff. And what I'm finding, what
I found after the Ted talk especially, was that men
would publicly attack, but then privately they were messaging me
in the masses, and that just goes to show the
issue that we have, which is we are different private
(24:23):
than we are public. It's very difficult for you guys
to express yourself. We're looked at. Why are you so emotional?
You're a man. No, I'm emotional because I'm a man
and I don't want to hold in to raise my
blood pressure, to raise my heart disease, to raise my cholesterol.
Let me let that poison out your stress tears. Don't
(24:43):
eat the stress tears, let them flow out, and then
I think we have a better, uplifted conception of what
it means to be a man. We're all in this together,
is a bottom line. And when men do better, women
are better, and vice versa, because it's all very interlocked.
We're human beings. Love every and don't judge. Thank you
both for being here. Thank you so much, Jason. Hopefully
(25:06):
this conversation opened some eyes, changed some minds, and hopefully
we'll have a positive impact on our children or future,
both men and women, so that we can just become
better and be more loving towards each other and make
the world a better place to be. Thank you to
all of our guests who joined us, and all of
you out there and kind of this conversation. I'm good.
(25:29):
Thanks for listening. To join the red Table Talk family
and become a part of the conversation. Follow us at
Facebook dot com, forward slash, red table Talk, Stefens. Red
Table Talk via Steffans is a production of Westbrook Studios
in partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael Dura podcast Network.
For more podcasts from my Heart, visit the I Heart
(25:50):
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Venidos Me and Gloria Stefan. Here you are listening to
Red Table Talk via Stefens Podcast, all your favorite episodes
from our Facebook watch show in audio. How well do
you really know the men in your life? I wanted
to be stronger, tougher, harrier, and also resenting my dad
because he wasn't that lumberjack guy. Inside The Minds of
(00:21):
Men with actor Justin Baldoni and superstar Boxer Can the
Tough and the Sweden for a rare conversation where men
actually talk about their feelings with people. Something and the
two words we need to stop saying to our men.
(00:42):
I cried in front of my girlfriend. She actually told
me to manna. Today we're doing something we've never done before.
We've invited only men to the table to talk about
what it means to be a man. Because for generations,
men have been conditioned to be seen as strong, rugged, independent, fearless,
(01:03):
and as masculine as possible traits that, when taken too far,
can lead to aggression, violence, physical and mental health issues,
and suicide, quite literally toxic masculinity. But many men today
are challenging those traditional ideas of manhood. A recent g
Q survey showed that one third of the men said
(01:26):
they wanted to be described as gentle, while only eight
percent wanted to be macho. In today's world, famous and
powerful men equally share parenting duties, where dresses, apply makeup,
and crying all in public, strength or sensitivity, fearlessness or feelings?
What does it mean to be a real man in
(01:47):
today's world? Joining the Red Table to help men find
a happy medium is Mexican superstar boxer Canello Albares ranked
as the number one boxer fighting today. Canelo Alvarez pulls
no punches when inside the ring, and his upcoming November
six fight against Caleb Plant has history on the line.
(02:09):
The winner of this bout is said to become the
first undisputed super middleweight champion in boxing history. A victory
in this fight would secure Carnello's legacy as one of
the greatest boxers of all time. But this fierce fighter
shows an entirely different side outside the ring. Canelo is
an affectionate father who dotes on his wife and three children.
(02:34):
Is the tough and the sweetest and the sweetest istorica
who's tantalis little. They would be in your relemented came
(03:06):
personally the questo peroo, the mira elca como repetaas el
(03:27):
carino cats ela those canelos not economic con s yes,
impression almost completed to not care former two pences grea
(04:13):
do you pences cinto calias and your second to it
is mala familiar noises responsible what I mean excellent the
(04:45):
Palace two temple club not too free, not free level
commonly parentalecause it's the course you can also compute. Look
(05:15):
so it took like Plantlement of Los Angeles, come to
Chris get machismo lab sometimes annual allowed personal move people.
(05:53):
I'm gonna need to corea qual majority at the machesmoke
cricket okay, combat depending plate court away the cano to
(06:32):
gris gets connecta conto centimientos the connect them more ego
con your home rose into coral can your legal for me? Really,
(06:59):
I mean your admittance for locate to represent us. You're
okaya jose rrno joran claro momentary easily it is Carlo, yes,
(07:52):
oh god, definiteante ello jovida as they ye canello to
(08:20):
Slui phisi case cambia si ermano amazing And you know
(08:42):
what it comes from a place of being so humble,
and he said something that really called my attention. If
you want to change as a man, you have to
want to do it. A lot of them they just
don't want to change. He also spoke about machismo starting
in the home, how we raise our boys and girls,
and the fact that he's comfortable crying, like, but now
(09:04):
we have another delicious male as resident Heartthrob Raphael on
the beloved series Jane the Virgin, which I had the
honor to be on. Justin Baldoni called the eye of
many women and probably quite a few mento. Justin has
made it his mission to reach men and help create
(09:25):
positive change, exploring traditional masculinity and reimagining what it means
to be a man in one Welcome Justin to the table.
Thank you so much for having me. I wish I
could be with you in person. We're going to get
to the book that you wrote that I find amazing
(09:46):
and so incredible and so needed right now. But I
want to hear about Europe bringing. I grew up in
l a and then we moved to Oregon when I
was ten, and so I got to experience kind of
like the liberal and conservative mindsets, and when we moved
to kind of more of the conservative area of the country,
where a lot of the dads were like rough and
tumble and lumberjack kind of guys and worked with their hands,
(10:06):
and my dad was more of an entrepreneur. I remember
just feeling like I didn't fit in because I wanted
to be bigger, stronger, tougher, harrier that eventually happened um,
and and also resenting my dad because he wasn't that
lumberjack guy. And so growing up having that dichotomy of
wanting my dad to be tougher, wanting him to teach
me how to fight, teach me at hunt, and feeling
(10:26):
like there was something wrong with me because I wasn't
naturally that thing because where I grew up, the box
was you need to be strong, tough, hairy, smoke to tobacco,
drink beers every weekend, go camping, you know, shoot, dear,
to be man enough. There are statistics about how these
pressures imposed on men have negative health repercussions. Things that
(10:51):
you're mentioning, even like chewing tobacco and drinking and encouraging
men over time to do that is leading to lower
life expectancies. What would you tell young boys so that
we can teach them and teach women as well. Oh,
thank you, Emily. This is an interesting question because men
have really been trained and brought up to be robots,
(11:11):
to be emotionless, and women have been brought up to be,
in many ways the opposite. All of us boys have
been taught to do that for self preservation, because showing
emotion is weak, because being sensitive is weak, when in reality,
us men are deeply insecure. We just can't admit it
to anybody because admitting it would then be counterproductive to
(11:34):
all of the socialization that we've been taught. Because we've
been taught we have to be strong and confident and
brave and tough and take fiscal risks and know all
the answers and take up space and you name it.
And you've been called brave because you're challenging this traditional masculinity.
How do you define brave? I would argue that one
of the bravest, strongest things you could do is admit
(11:57):
your weakness to another man, because that is when everything
is on the line. We train as athletes, we spent
all of this time reinforcing the idea that we gotta work, work, work, work, work,
put in the work, getting the gym every day, hustle, hustle, hustle.
But we don't do it emotionally, God forbid. We put
in the same amount of work and the gym as
we do in our hearts. So it's so much about
(12:18):
reframing the narrative, understanding that this is not about saying
you as a man are bad or wrong. But at
the end of the day, we have to look at
the world and we've got to look at the fact
that one in four women, over the course of their
lifetime has a very high probability of being raped. We
men are doing this. But if we're the problem, then
what I would argue and what I would offer to
men is that we're also the solution. And all of
(12:41):
you women know there's nothing men love more than finding solutions.
So I would like to invite men in and not
attack and call men out justin. I got so excited
when I heard that the Spanish version of your book
Men Enough is now available everywhere. Tell everyone about the
book because I read it and I love it. You
(13:02):
mentioned about undefining what do you mean with with that
particular choice of word, because it's fascinating to me, and
it's a very astute. When I first started this journey
with masculinity, I thought I wanted to to redefine what
it meant to be a man. The way that we've
been brainwashed and socialized to believe that we have to
(13:23):
be as men has created a box, a very rigid
definition of masculinity. For me, undefining it simply means to
take ourselves out of the box. Because if you really
think about it, masculinity is a performance. Why because we
have to earn it, because it is subject to somebody
else's approval. Even the word emasculated that means that somebody
(13:47):
can take away my masculinity. Well, if I'm going through
the world thinking that my masculinity has to be proven
in every place that I go, that I'm not born
with it, that I'm already coming from a place of lack,
I'm already coming from insecurity because I don't have enough
of it. That we're always trying to like prove an
exercise dominance over somebody else, and we'll never get to
(14:08):
the top. If we're gonna do better, we have to
change exactly what you're talking about. That dynamic. Yeah, just
think I'm listening to you, and I think this is
the hardest thing you're ever going to do in your
life to try to connect with the men. You're right,
it's not easy. It's I question why I'm doing this
all the time, because really, at the end of the day,
(14:29):
I am going up against the very people I want
to be accepted by. And that's a really hard thing
for us two men, because we want to be accepted
by other men. And so that's why, as an example,
you have some you have silence when other men say things,
um that are sexist or racist, when you see other
(14:50):
men maybe treating women certain ways. There's so much silence
because of the fear of going up against other men.
And for me doing this work is terrifying also because
most men that don't actually listen fully to what I
have to say or read the book just assume that
I'm doing it for money or fame or to try
(15:11):
to get laid, which is what I get that all
the time, which is hilarious, and not understanding that at
the root of this is is actually my desire to
set myself free. And by the way, women are just
as guilty because there is this whole mystique to a
woman about you know, the big magic comes and sweeps
(15:32):
you off your feet and you don't have to worry
about anything the rest of your life because he's going
to have all the answers. What role do you think
the modern rising femininity plays in today's masculinity. Well, first
of all, I love where this conversation is going, and
something that my wife and I talk a lot about,
what's the woman's role here. We can't separate ourselves from
the idea that we're all raised in the same system.
(15:54):
Women have their own version of internalized misogyny, which is
you're raised in a culture that teaches you that you
need to be protected. But it's also true because you
do need to be protected. And this idea that women
want to feel protected is real. But the idea that
we're raising our next generation to protect means that we're
too late. It's a band aid to a deeper problem. Right.
(16:16):
We have to actually stop it at its source, which
means we have to be teaching our young boys to
stand up to other boys. But what I do want
to say is this, it's really important. A lot of
the messages I get from men are okay, justin I
need your home. I cried in front of my girlfriend
or my wife or um, I did this thing, and
I was vulnerable, and she actually she she actually told
(16:40):
me to man up. And so what it comes down
to is you got to go all the way back
to the source and recognize that like when we're raising
these boys, when we're raising our children, we have to
allow them to feel, allow them to cry, and ourselves
we have to find spaces where we can let it out.
I know how good I feel after I cry. When
you have one of those days that you know that
(17:01):
you're talking to our friends and they just go, you
know what, just let it out, Let it out, let
it out. But if I would see a guy, I mean,
I was looking at you, and I'm thinking, if I
would see a guy doing the same thing, yeah, I
think I would say I would let it out. But
I would be like, no, no, no, no, I think
I would feel uncomfortable if you know, like, I really
(17:23):
want to help you because you're you understand a woman,
but I exactly brave of you to admit it. May
that's where we started, right, I wouldn't un understand if
I'm doing the right thing telling the guy, yes, let
it up. There's a responsibility here of understanding that us
men can't make that move. We can't like step into
(17:43):
that part of ourselves. We can't be vulnerable, especially with
the woman, if the woman also has been socialized to
see that his weakness. And I think this really exists
in the machismo culture, especially from a lot of my
conversations with Latin men and women, this idea of these roles,
because if you're trained to see that as weakness as
(18:04):
a woman and as a man, you're taught you can't
ever go there, then our gap is too big. We'll
never get there. So I think that there's a little
bit of work on both parts, and it's about time
that we embrace vulnerability of strength. I think that we
need to be teaching our boys to feel to cry. Emily,
you brought up earlier this idea of um physical ailments
being linked to masculinity, and there were studies that were
(18:27):
done in the eighties that show that the tears that
we cry as children, as human beings, actually contain stress hormones. Wow,
the tears that we need to cry when we're children
are actually our body telling us we have to release something,
and those stress hormones. When they're not released, they lead
to things like cancer and heart disease and you name it.
(18:50):
What have you found about masculinity and mental health of men?
Like how the expectations of masculinity, what it does to
your head? Well, the greatest myth of masculinity is that
we have to do it alone, that we can't ask
for help. Here's the beautiful thing. I'm on a healing
journey trying to understand my own trauma. Why I act
(19:11):
the way that I act because I'm tired of hurting
people that I love. And the deeper I go in,
the more I replace that energy and time I used
to spend on my body with going in and healing
the parts of myself that have been broken for years,
the little Justine that has been screaming for love and
attention and compassion. The more I heal that, the more
I recognize that my desire for influence and success and
(19:37):
for money and all of that is really just a
trauma response, and all of ours is, if we really
think about it, there was a part of us that
wasn't seen growing up, And so for me, I recognize
that I'm the most at peace when I'm telling the
truth and when I'm encouraging truthful, honest conversations. We all
have a job to do, which is we have to
(19:57):
go in first, and we have to recognize it's our
job to heal. It's not our partner's job, it's not
somebody else's job. And the most manly thing we can
do is recognize that we have stuff we have to
work out and we need somebody else's help to do that. Absolutely,
I'm not an expert. I'm a guy that's just on
a journey trying to heal and trying to unlearn. And
I hope that people are willing to talk to experts
(20:19):
and therapists and go and go deep because the world
needs us to heal. Well you are. You may not
be an expert, but you are starting the conversation. But
since I love my experts too, we're going to bring
one to the table. Dr Michael Eric Dyson serves as
a Distinguished Professor at Vanderbilt University and has authored over
(20:40):
twenty books. His new book, Entertaining Race Performing Blackness in
America explores the challenges that many men face, especially in
the African American community. Welcome Dr Dyson with Justin at
the table. What is your first reaction to everything you've
been hearing. Look, it's an extraordinarily necessary conversation to have because,
(21:02):
as they say in the streets, stakes is high. The
consequences of this are not just theoretical, not just philosophical.
They're in our bodies, there in our relationships, there are
our homes. Men's conception of masculinity has a profound impact
on how we view the world, how we share power
or don't, how we view women or don't. What is masculinity? You? Well, look,
(21:27):
it's a variety of things, is what Justice has been
speaking about. It's in process, right, Russell Westbrook a tremendous
basketball player during fashion week, Oh my god, he's wearing
a dress robbing. Way before then, you were a little girl,
Emilia had to wear a surrong in order to go
into the restaurant. Men, no doubt about it. So I
(21:50):
welcome the opportunity for men to relieve the burden of
having to carry the mythology that we know it all,
that we can think at all. As you were saying, Elier,
that you have to do it by yourself, to have partnership,
to ask other people, to reach out, to ask questions.
That's extremely important in terms of redefining masculinity. And I
(22:11):
listened to brother Justin brilliantly deconstruct masculinity and ask questions
about what we as men should do and what we
should be about. And I can't help but think about
the way in which race makes a difference even there,
because as a white guy, you're presumed to have a
certain kind of power and authority, and therefore you can
give it up easily. But if you're a Latino, if
(22:33):
you're African American, if you're a black person, if you're
a person of color, and as a man, you haven't
been granted from birth the same prerequisites and the same
presumptions about your masculinity that you can so easily lay
it down because we needn't got it yet. So it's
been a fascinating conversation, and it's so necessary for all
of us to ask serious questions about the destructive character
(22:56):
of our toxic masculinity, poisonous patriarch key, and the way
in which our masculinities have punished as much as they
have relieved and punished every male professor. How about if
you start doing that as a man and the woman
tells you you just said, we'll show me how because
you're more of a man than me. That's when it's
(23:20):
the woman's responsibility, because it's both sides. You know, we
can't play into it not already. That continued masculinity is
never a one way conversation. It's a dual conversation. It's
a tripard conversation. It's a conversation with the culture our
women in our lives tell us manner, step up to
the plate, be a responsible human being. How do you
claim that part of your masculinity that says I want
(23:42):
to nurture and protect, I want to love my loved ones,
I want to protect my children at the same time
express it in a way that allows them the freedom
to say, I'm gonna claim to be who I am.
I'm not going to be limited by earlier visions of
manhood that restrict my ability to be free. Just then,
what have you found the response to be, what do
(24:03):
you think is happening? Is it getting better? What I'm
seeing happen is men are hurting so much right now
because they've never had an outlet, They've never been able
to talk about this stuff. And what I'm finding, what
I found after the Ted talk especially, was that men
would publicly attack, but then privately they were messaging me
in the masses, and that just goes to show the
issue that we have, which is we are different private
(24:23):
than we are public. It's very difficult for you guys
to express yourself. We're looked at. Why are you so emotional?
You're a man. No, I'm emotional because I'm a man
and I don't want to hold in to raise my
blood pressure, to raise my heart disease, to raise my cholesterol.
Let me let that poison out your stress tears. Don't
(24:43):
eat the stress tears, let them flow out, and then
I think we have a better, uplifted conception of what
it means to be a man. We're all in this together,
is a bottom line. And when men do better, women
are better, and vice versa, because it's all very interlocked.
We're human beings. Love every and don't judge. Thank you
both for being here. Thank you so much, Jason. Hopefully
(25:06):
this conversation opened some eyes, changed some minds, and hopefully
we'll have a positive impact on our children or future,
both men and women, so that we can just become
better and be more loving towards each other and make
the world a better place to be. Thank you to
all of our guests who joined us, and all of
you out there and kind of this conversation. I'm good.
(25:29):
Thanks for listening. To join the red Table Talk family
and become a part of the conversation. Follow us at
Facebook dot com, forward slash, red table Talk, Stefens. Red
Table Talk via Steffans is a production of Westbrook Studios
in partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael Dura podcast Network.
For more podcasts from my Heart, visit the I Heart
(25:50):
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com