December 22, 2021 • 25 mins
Two of the most controversial social media personalities come to the Table for a face-off on the Cancel Culture epidemic. Perez Hilton, who created the most notorious celebrity gossip blog, shares his regrets for his past behavior and targeted celebrity takedowns, including Britney Spears, Arianna Grande, Lady Gaga and Lindsey Lohan. YouTube personality Gabbie Hanna confronts Perez about what she calls his “hypocrisy” and reveals how being cancelled cost her professionally and personally. What is too far? What is fair game? Join this lively debate and sound off below.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bienveni, Thos mend Gloria Stefan. Here you are listening to
Red Table Talk via Stefens Podcast all your favorite episodes
from our Facebook watch show in audio. Has cancel culture
gone too far? Everything I do is twisted. I've lost
two record deals, friends, sponsors. Please, I love TikTok. I'm sorry,
(00:21):
I will shut up in the minds of the overwhelming majority,
I am irredeemable. He sounds such a hypocrite. A lot
of people to say the same thing about you know,
that's just tough. Are we ready, ladies, I don't know.
I don't know. Alright, Well, let's get started in the
(00:44):
concept of cancel culture is everywhere, from our politics to
pop culture. Some view cancel culture as a modern form
of social justice, a way to hold others accountable for
offensive words and actions past and present. Others feel that
cancel culture is a dangerous trend led by online mobs
(01:05):
who will stop at nothing to silence anyone or anything
they disapprove of. I think personally it has gone too far.
I think it's dangerous. I feel like accountability personally for
me and cancel culture are two separate things. I'm glad
the world is changing, and we need to hold people
accountable for being racist or being homophobic. For example, in
the case of somebody who has broken the law, maybe
(01:27):
even you know, an abuser of some sort, they need
to be taken out of society to not be a threat.
But that's not the responsibility of a fourteen year old online. Yeah,
but if you take them out, the biggest question is
do you forgive them? Do we give them a second chance?
Human beings are going to make mistakes. You've made mistakes,
I've made mistakes. The danger is there that it's a
(01:49):
broad spectrum. Some people have been canceled for, in my opinion,
things that they haven't even done. And then there are
people who deserve to not have a platform. But a
lot of the time I think that they're kind of viewed,
possibly in the same kind of way. Okay, they've been
counseled for something they did twenty years ago when things
were different. So are we really doing something that is
(02:10):
helping the society. I think we're way more sensitive. I've
been doing the same show El Gordon La Flaca for
the last twenty four years, and I can look back
and say there are things that were now When I
see it. It was politically incorrect totally, but it was
at times. I've been watching this with a keen interest,
and because you went through some kind of councel culture,
(02:34):
I did you know, mom, you got cats off. I
walked right into a firestorm when I stood up for
a woman who was let go from the County Film
Board for expressing her opinion that artists from communist Cuba
should be able to perform in Miami, as the embargo states.
I wrote a letter to the paper defending everyone's right
to freedom of speech, even those whose points of view
(02:56):
may not reflect our own. And the first thing I
write said, let me clearly state that I am staunchly
anti communists. A guy got a steam roller and steamed
rolled my CDs, and I got trashed and dragged. They
call it now right, that's a new world, one lingo girl,
I just learned that this week what happened to me
(03:16):
was local. Now it's worldwide. For a long time, people
have been doing this to other people. It's not something new,
but it has evolved and changed with the Internet. The
rise of gossip bloggers like Perez Hilton in the early
two thousand's paved the way for today's online mobs. As
the man behind Hollywood's most hated website, Perez made a
(03:39):
name for himself by urging his followers to cancel scandal
plague stars like Britney Spears and Lindsey Lohan. In two
thousand and ten, he had a change of heart and
vowed to stop attacking and insulting celebrities on his blog,
Welcome Perez. I'm sure a lot of people are going
to know you that were watching the show on a
(03:59):
lot of people are probably gonna be angry at you me. Yeah,
for bring it, maybe giving me a platform, and that
very well, maybe true, But changing this dialogue and moving forward,
the importance of having you here is for you to speak.
If you've contributed to this world, and now how are
you going to contribute to changing it? What do you
consider yourself when it comes to the industry. I consider
(04:20):
myself an entertainer. I wouldn't say I'm a journalist, although
I do take what I do seriously. But for example,
like there were human beings on the other side of
your stories and we have to call a spain spare
you said some hurtful things. Did you feel powerful when
you did those things? That word power to me, it
never resonated because that would imply that I can force
(04:42):
people to do things, and I can force people to
think a certain way. I could have influence, But I'd
like to view it more like opportunity. I have the
opportunity to share and people have the opportunity to receive. Seriously, yeah,
I viewed what I did as shining the light. I'm
shining the light on celebrities that get it right and
(05:04):
those that get it wrong, those that are behaving badly.
And in your mindset, did you think, maybe, oh, well,
they know what they signed up for. That's one of
the many talking points that I would tell my brain
to program it to justify my behavior. I was a
drug addict and attention was my drug. I knew what
I was doing was bad, and I kept doing it
(05:26):
and I kept being rewarded for it. And by the way,
I think that's one of the big issues with social
media and the kids that are getting on it, because
we all crave attention and we all crave acceptance. Right now,
acceptance is likes. Perez was getting plenty of those legs
on TikTok until late when he was banned from the site.
(05:47):
I feel like my world is crumbling. He suddenly found
himself on the other side of the cancel culture coin
and begged TikTok to reconsider. Get on the phone with
me and talk to me. Please, TikTok anybody but the
bend remains in effect. What did you do on the app?
(06:08):
You know they have this thing called the four you
page where random videos pop up on your feed. I
saw this video because she was and still is the
most followed person on TikTok, Charlie at the time. She
was just fifteen years old. I saw this video of
her on the beach in a bikini dancing what I
(06:30):
thought was sexually to a song with very explicitly sexual
lyrics about having sex. So what I said, which I
do not regret, I would have rephrased it now, was
is this appropriate? I should have Maybe that was the question,
But didn't you also call her like bland? She's very
(06:52):
girl next door bland, basic boring. That's still a fifteen
year old girl. She's a child, you know. I do
do it for the views because she was like the
number one asking that question. Um, because now it wasn't
it was a specific question I had, and there was
like a petition to get me banned, and I just
(07:15):
was viewed as the enemy. Where does this happen? This
change dot org? I do think it's interesting though a
lot of people, both old and young, think that having
an opinion that might not be positive is bullying. Were
you bullied in school? I was for being fat? Actually,
(07:35):
what did you learn from those dark moments in your life?
I wasn't aware of it at the time, but the
whole birth of Perez and so much of what I
did and still do, was a reaction to my childhood trauma.
Now I realized that I was kind of wielding a sword,
(07:57):
and I just wanted to wield the sword because life
had been so unkind and unfair to me. But a
sword can really hurt people. At the height of his
blog's popularity, Perez was infamous for out in closeted gay
celebrities like Clay Aiken, Lance Bass, and Neil Patrick Harris
before they were ready to come out to the public.
(08:20):
Did you feel, maybe because you were openly gay, that
that was your like permission to out people that were
gay that didn't come out. No, that's just U. I
never understood how you, as a gay man could put
anybody in that situation where I don't understand that I
was outed by a family member. Okay, but to the family, Yeah,
(08:43):
I was outed to my family too, And I can
tell you if somebody did that to the public, if
you have done that to me, Oh girl, to answer
your questions, please, I knew what I was doing was wrong.
I would tell myself all these mantras, all these talking
points to you know, be that drug addict, Well, I'm
gonna do this because of that. So yeah, I would
(09:04):
say things like, well, I'm just sharing with my friends
online what my friends in private talk about. So why
should I treat my public friends any differently than my
private friends? And not your friends. They're the audience of
these people, Okay, Perez, I want to address this with
you because last week we had Lauren Hildeggie at this
(09:28):
very table to talk about the online abuse of women,
and your name came up. And one of the things
that bothered her the most was the photo that you tweeted,
because it was almost forcing her to come out. Let's
watch it. To the point of the coming out thing,
I wasn't ready. I didn't know because I'm also Latino,
(09:49):
you know, So there was that looming thing of like
what is my community going to feel about me? And
my immediate family knew, but it was like, yeah, I
felt really yeah. I don't view myself as outing her.
That picture that was in the photo booths. She never
intended for that to get out for especially young women.
(10:10):
Sexuality is so fluid. Girls with you, I'm so certays.
You can't say for a woman like and a male
oh well, gay man, it's different, like women have sex
with women like no matter Like that's there's a lot
of women who will make out with women and don't
identify as men, And a lot of people in society
will look at two women together and they don't legitimize
(10:31):
our relationship. They're like, oh, girls make out with girls,
it's just a college phase. Oh yeah, girls together are hot, Like,
which is what you're doing right now? I think you can't.
Sexuality is very for a lot of your man you're
not a woman. You can't speak to a woman's experience.
That's not fair. When I shared those photos, I didn't
say anything negative. I just shared the photos that were
(10:52):
already trending. It's not like on the train and took
advantage that you would get more views and followers. I
wouldn't do it as taking advantage. How did I take advantage?
But that's what you said before, like, oh, you see
a good story, I'm gonna just spread it and perpetuated.
What I'm saying is just let it go, like let
her figure it out. It kind of goes back to
just like the nature of what I do or a
show like what do we do? Don't you that has
(11:17):
nothing to do with her career? Yeah, it's a story.
Why do you have now we know this story? But
as an ninity as a show, if we get a
picture from Laurie, we would have done exactly stop. That's
my point. It was private. It was because it was
known that it was a private family photo, that it
was a wedding. It was media. This is a problem
(11:40):
as a culture of exploiting young people for things like
their sexuality, their private life. We should have people who
put flags in the sand and say no. But then
we're talking about censorship or what are you saying. I'm
not talking about censorship. I'm talking about we have somebody
right here. They've done damaging things to a lot of
people and has been on the other end of receiving hates.
(12:01):
I've accepted that in the minds of the overwhelming majority,
I am irredeemable. There is nothing I could ever do change,
grow evolved, mature to make things right with my past.
Like not even if I donated all of the money
(12:23):
that I've made over the last years, if I gave
it all away, they would say, Okay, that's nice. It
still doesn't erase his pastor that's great, he's still a
d bag or what an idiot? I can't believe he
gave away all his money. I do believe that a
lot of people view cancel culture as a form of entertainment.
Absolutely alright. YouTube star Gabby Hannah skyrocketed to fame in
(12:46):
two thousand thirteen and has consistently made headlines for online
feuds with other social media influencers. Those feuds have escalated
to online mobs calling for Gabby to be canceled. Fans
of her rivals Have you even started a petition similar
to the one that led to Perez Hilton's TikTok band. Gabby,
(13:07):
who's also building her music career, says this has devastated
her both personally and professionally. You know, w what I
say or do. It's just like everything I do is twisted. Welcome, Gabby,
this table's on fire woman, it's on something. Absolutely just
aching back there. You should have just well, I wanted here.
(13:30):
I was trying to be respectful. First of all. I
cannot tell you how honored I am to be here
with everyone at this table. I am obsessed with you
so much. Everything that you're saying leave so I feel
like you're speaking out of my journal, like everything that
you've been saying about the picture, because you are absolutely correct.
It's the equivalent of if somebody starts a rumor in
(13:52):
high school and it's kind of gossip among the mean girls,
and then somebody takes the overhead and announces it to
the entire high school, and then the principle sends a
newsletter to the entire community. That's the difference between what
they did and what you did. So validation for you
you have the Gabby show. Would you have posted that picture?
Absolutely not. My content doesn't revolve around other people, like
(14:14):
look at my top videos, like I'm making content about myself.
I would never want to make my name on I
was gonna say no offense, but yes offense. I would
never make my name on someone else's why do we
do on a TV show. I think that if it's
something involving somebody's sexuality or anything involving anybody's personal life,
I personally don't think that the media has to say
anything about anyone. And that's where I think that we
(14:36):
need a drastic shift in culture. We do love talking
about celebrities as if their characters humanity is completely out
of the window. And I say this as somebody who
obviously had a really great life online, but it's just
we have to start looking at humans as humans. If
I ask Gabby, like who are you? Are you musician, actress, entertainer,
I would identify as an artist first and foremost of
(14:57):
a lot of different kinds. That's how I like to identify.
That's what makes me feel good, and I like to
spend most of my days creating. I started this when
nobody knew what social media was and I was twenty
two years old. I just came out of college and
I remember telling people I'm going to be a miner
and people said that's not a thing, and I said
it will be, so I kind of dove into it
without really understanding what that meant. And that's also when
(15:18):
I didn't work through anything in my life yet, and
I had so many mental issues going on, and I
had so much pass trauma. I was trying to figure
out who I was. I was twenty two years old,
but now here I am and I'm thirty, and there's
so much of my life online and so much of
my energy and my privacy that people now have access
to that I wish I could eliminate. But these kids now,
of course, That's why when I see these children, I
(15:41):
was in tenth or eleventh grade when I got my
first cell phone. We had limited text messages. These kids
are on their phone all the time, and what happened
in the pandemic is they have nothing to do but
be on their phones, accessing every part of each other's lives.
Everything is digital. I went to the Internet because I
had a really hard time socializing in real life, had
a hard time making friends, and then all of a sudden,
I'm on the internet and I have all of these
(16:02):
followers who think I'm cool and I'm the popular girl.
So I waiting this addiction that Perez talked about. Absolutely.
But what upset me is when I was back there
is I was really eager to hear what you had
to say, and it feels like you can't take accountability
at all. From where I'm sitting, like, hearing you speak,
it sounds like you have no idea what you're saying.
(16:23):
You sound like such a hypocrite. You're still doing the
thing that you got canceled for. But you know you
don't have to say an you think about anyone like
you can just shut your mouth and that'd be cool too.
A lot of people can say the same thing about you.
In fact, over the last few months, many people have
come forward accusing you of very hurtful, toxic, cruel things,
(16:47):
and people can do their own research and if they do,
which you'll see, there's nothing there. I never intentionally got
into the drama community. The drama community got into me.
The online drama came to a head when Gabby posted
a series of emotional videos before deciding to take a
break from social media and walk away from her millions
(17:08):
of subscribers. Everybody's already decided that I'm like this monster
combative wants to hurt people. Person Everybody created a version
of me that's just not real, And it felt like
everyone in my actual real life, not the people who
pretend to know me based on whatever interaction they've had.
They say, it feels like the people on the internet
literally think you're the opposite of who you are, and
(17:30):
I wanted to prove them wrong. Like I just wanted
to show them who I was. But that's where the
ego comes in. Is I cared so much still about
what other people thought of Bill Now, No, not now,
but like at that point when I was like making
those videos and trying to defend myself and tell my side.
But I've always been like an oversharer. So like, if
I'm sad, I like talking about it, like a post
about it. When I show them that I'm hurt, it
(17:51):
hurts more. When people pick it apart, I'd like tell
me that I'm like thinking, or that I shouldn't be
feeling this way or what, or that I deserve it. Okay,
this is very valuable. It's important that we show the
ultimate thing that can happen consequence with popularity. Through the
course of this, I've lost two record deals, I've lost friends, opportunities,
(18:13):
money numbers. Like, there wasn't a professional, personal, financial, any
type of benefit that I've gotten from this, and I
have not wanted it. That's why I think I've tried
every single thing that I could do, and then the
only thing that I felt like I had left was Okay,
I guess I just have to tell my side. But
then halfway through that I stopped because even that I realized, like, Okay,
this is not feeding my soul in the way that
(18:35):
I wanted it to. That will affect your mental health.
Of course, you know, I've been canceled and I'm canceled
over and over again by the public. But one thing
we have not talked about, which I find sad and interesting,
is cancel culture has become so accepted in so many circles,
especially when you're talking about politics on both sides. If
(18:59):
you just agree, you don't think the way that other
people think, you're instantly canceled. And listen, I grew up
in Miami with a lot of family members. You can't
even have a conversation. I know I I don't align
with their views, but that's still my family member, and
I'm still going to love you, and that's important. And
I'm really glad you said that, because there isn't enough
(19:20):
love in disagreement. Just like I came out here, was
like I don't agree, what you're saying about like girls.
That's why I came out a little bit heated because
that that conversation was like I'm still a little bits always,
but like you and I can disagree and we can
have nothing but respect and love for each other, and
that's a good thing. So thank you for just like
pointing that out. We can all as human beings. And
(19:41):
this is something I feel like we need to work on,
is empathy. We want to try to figure out this
whole new world and what we should change in it
or how we can help it be better. To me,
what's especially is scary is that, you know, we keep
seeing now people in their twenties losing jaws over things
(20:01):
they said when they were teenagers on social media over
a decade ago. Here to help us impact this complicated
issue is n YU Communications Professor Gabrielle Gambril, Professor. How
far does cancel culture go? Like, do you hold somebody
accountable for things they said when they were children that
(20:22):
didn't have an idea of what they were doing. It
depends on how many people are coming to say that's
not okay. How many people are like, uh, I'll let
that slide. As people, no one is perfect, and we
recognize that no one is perfect. We talked about cancel culture.
We talked about people's reputation, their credibility, and their profit.
Why are you concerned with someone's credibility? Is it because
(20:44):
there's a social impact element? There is there? Because are
they harming the world? Yes, as someone doing something wrong
where you're like, actually we need to step in because
I just did research and this is wrong, and hey, guys,
I actually do need your help because justice needs to
be done. I don't even necessarily think that cancel culture
is a bad thing. I wouldn't call it cancel culture.
(21:06):
I do believe that righteous indignation could be and often
is a positive. But what is disappointing is it seems
like so often people's go to is cancel first. Where's
the line? The line is determined by the public. You know.
Bill Cosby is a convicted rapist. He was released from
(21:29):
prison on a technicality. Since his release, he has announced
plans to do a docu either series or film, and
go on tour a stand up comedy tour. I'm pretty
sure it'll sell out. Why is he being allowed now
to go on tour and do a doctorentary and it
really speaks to who's outrage, who's upset, who's trying to
(21:50):
cancel you. So if we talk about one of the
greatest entertainers of all time, Michael Jackson, yes you say
Michael Jackson, I'm I'm saying a p y t like
all day long. However, to some people, if you say
Michael Jackson, they may say, don't play that here. They
may bring up children, they may bring upstarted things. It's
based on your perception or that community you're speaking to. Now,
(22:13):
if things are of the past and things resurface, you
need to help your audience, help your community understand who
you are today. Another thing of cancel culture. But you're
a malicious Are you being rude? Are you being disrespectful?
And then that also gets to people talking about cancel
culture or bullying because when you bully someone, if you
are a bully, you are intentionally trying to hurt someone
(22:34):
and not necessarily give them better. Okay, So when it
comes to cancel culture, yes I needs too far. When
someone is contemplating their life, when someone is saying this
really hurt me, or you know, do I deserve to
be here anymore? Can I ever come back from that
that's where cancer culture can be dangerous. And again I say, parents,
(22:55):
we have to be aware of what our children are
seeing doing how much time there alone on the webbits
of very dangerous place that really is so toxic and dangerous.
I can't think of another resource like that that has
ever existed. Absolutely, and I would like to hear final
thoughts from the both of you. I think one great
(23:15):
solution is to really treat everybody like family and view
them like a cousin or a brother or a sister
and acknowledge I don't agree with that, but you're still
my brother, You're still my cousin. And if you view
people that way, you'll treat them and talk about them differently.
That's very important. We have this type of society now
(23:37):
where everybody is allowed to have an opinion, and everybody
feels really almost like they're supposed to have an opinion
on everything. I think we just need to really lead
with kindness more and also try to detach ourselves a
little bit from the conditioning that we have with social media,
which is this is all we're worth now for me
at least, like so much worth came from numbers, because
when those numbers start slipping from five million views to
(23:59):
one million. You're like, what am I doing wrong? And
now you're in the cycle of trying to please everybody
but yourself, and you lose your soul and yourself completely.
And this is a lesson for all of us. We
need to lower the temperature of our social discourse in
every way. And we can continue to silence or cancel
someone just because we disagree with them, and the only
true way forward is to respectfully engage in an open
(24:22):
dialogue and that fosters growth, empathy, and compromise. Thank you
to all of our guests who joined the table today
and to all of you for being with us. Human
beings are going to make mistakes. You've made mistakes. I've
made mistakes. May I've made no mistakes. We keep growing
until the day we die. If you think you know
(24:43):
it all, you don't know anything, because we'll continue to
evolve every day and maybe we're all coming out of
the dark. Maybe thanks for listening. To join the Red
Table Talk family and become a part of the conversation.
Follow us at Facebook dot com, forward slash, red table Talk, Stefans.
(25:04):
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favorite shows.
Bienveni, Thos mend Gloria Stefan. Here you are listening to
Red Table Talk via Stefens Podcast all your favorite episodes
from our Facebook watch show in audio. Has cancel culture
gone too far? Everything I do is twisted. I've lost
two record deals, friends, sponsors. Please, I love TikTok. I'm sorry,
(00:21):
I will shut up in the minds of the overwhelming majority,
I am irredeemable. He sounds such a hypocrite. A lot
of people to say the same thing about you know,
that's just tough. Are we ready, ladies, I don't know.
I don't know. Alright, Well, let's get started in the
(00:44):
concept of cancel culture is everywhere, from our politics to
pop culture. Some view cancel culture as a modern form
of social justice, a way to hold others accountable for
offensive words and actions past and present. Others feel that
cancel culture is a dangerous trend led by online mobs
(01:05):
who will stop at nothing to silence anyone or anything
they disapprove of. I think personally it has gone too far.
I think it's dangerous. I feel like accountability personally for
me and cancel culture are two separate things. I'm glad
the world is changing, and we need to hold people
accountable for being racist or being homophobic. For example, in
the case of somebody who has broken the law, maybe
(01:27):
even you know, an abuser of some sort, they need
to be taken out of society to not be a threat.
But that's not the responsibility of a fourteen year old online. Yeah,
but if you take them out, the biggest question is
do you forgive them? Do we give them a second chance?
Human beings are going to make mistakes. You've made mistakes,
I've made mistakes. The danger is there that it's a
(01:49):
broad spectrum. Some people have been canceled for, in my opinion,
things that they haven't even done. And then there are
people who deserve to not have a platform. But a
lot of the time I think that they're kind of viewed,
possibly in the same kind of way. Okay, they've been
counseled for something they did twenty years ago when things
were different. So are we really doing something that is
(02:10):
helping the society. I think we're way more sensitive. I've
been doing the same show El Gordon La Flaca for
the last twenty four years, and I can look back
and say there are things that were now When I
see it. It was politically incorrect totally, but it was
at times. I've been watching this with a keen interest,
and because you went through some kind of councel culture,
(02:34):
I did you know, mom, you got cats off. I
walked right into a firestorm when I stood up for
a woman who was let go from the County Film
Board for expressing her opinion that artists from communist Cuba
should be able to perform in Miami, as the embargo states.
I wrote a letter to the paper defending everyone's right
to freedom of speech, even those whose points of view
(02:56):
may not reflect our own. And the first thing I
write said, let me clearly state that I am staunchly
anti communists. A guy got a steam roller and steamed
rolled my CDs, and I got trashed and dragged. They
call it now right, that's a new world, one lingo girl,
I just learned that this week what happened to me
(03:16):
was local. Now it's worldwide. For a long time, people
have been doing this to other people. It's not something new,
but it has evolved and changed with the Internet. The
rise of gossip bloggers like Perez Hilton in the early
two thousand's paved the way for today's online mobs. As
the man behind Hollywood's most hated website, Perez made a
(03:39):
name for himself by urging his followers to cancel scandal
plague stars like Britney Spears and Lindsey Lohan. In two
thousand and ten, he had a change of heart and
vowed to stop attacking and insulting celebrities on his blog,
Welcome Perez. I'm sure a lot of people are going
to know you that were watching the show on a
(03:59):
lot of people are probably gonna be angry at you me. Yeah,
for bring it, maybe giving me a platform, and that
very well, maybe true, But changing this dialogue and moving forward,
the importance of having you here is for you to speak.
If you've contributed to this world, and now how are
you going to contribute to changing it? What do you
consider yourself when it comes to the industry. I consider
(04:20):
myself an entertainer. I wouldn't say I'm a journalist, although
I do take what I do seriously. But for example,
like there were human beings on the other side of
your stories and we have to call a spain spare
you said some hurtful things. Did you feel powerful when
you did those things? That word power to me, it
never resonated because that would imply that I can force
(04:42):
people to do things, and I can force people to
think a certain way. I could have influence, But I'd
like to view it more like opportunity. I have the
opportunity to share and people have the opportunity to receive. Seriously, yeah,
I viewed what I did as shining the light. I'm
shining the light on celebrities that get it right and
(05:04):
those that get it wrong, those that are behaving badly.
And in your mindset, did you think, maybe, oh, well,
they know what they signed up for. That's one of
the many talking points that I would tell my brain
to program it to justify my behavior. I was a
drug addict and attention was my drug. I knew what
I was doing was bad, and I kept doing it
(05:26):
and I kept being rewarded for it. And by the way,
I think that's one of the big issues with social
media and the kids that are getting on it, because
we all crave attention and we all crave acceptance. Right now,
acceptance is likes. Perez was getting plenty of those legs
on TikTok until late when he was banned from the site.
(05:47):
I feel like my world is crumbling. He suddenly found
himself on the other side of the cancel culture coin
and begged TikTok to reconsider. Get on the phone with
me and talk to me. Please, TikTok anybody but the
bend remains in effect. What did you do on the app?
(06:08):
You know they have this thing called the four you
page where random videos pop up on your feed. I
saw this video because she was and still is the
most followed person on TikTok, Charlie at the time. She
was just fifteen years old. I saw this video of
her on the beach in a bikini dancing what I
(06:30):
thought was sexually to a song with very explicitly sexual
lyrics about having sex. So what I said, which I
do not regret, I would have rephrased it now, was
is this appropriate? I should have Maybe that was the question,
But didn't you also call her like bland? She's very
(06:52):
girl next door bland, basic boring. That's still a fifteen
year old girl. She's a child, you know. I do
do it for the views because she was like the
number one asking that question. Um, because now it wasn't
it was a specific question I had, and there was
like a petition to get me banned, and I just
(07:15):
was viewed as the enemy. Where does this happen? This
change dot org? I do think it's interesting though a
lot of people, both old and young, think that having
an opinion that might not be positive is bullying. Were
you bullied in school? I was for being fat? Actually,
(07:35):
what did you learn from those dark moments in your life?
I wasn't aware of it at the time, but the
whole birth of Perez and so much of what I
did and still do, was a reaction to my childhood trauma.
Now I realized that I was kind of wielding a sword,
(07:57):
and I just wanted to wield the sword because life
had been so unkind and unfair to me. But a
sword can really hurt people. At the height of his
blog's popularity, Perez was infamous for out in closeted gay
celebrities like Clay Aiken, Lance Bass, and Neil Patrick Harris
before they were ready to come out to the public.
(08:20):
Did you feel, maybe because you were openly gay, that
that was your like permission to out people that were
gay that didn't come out. No, that's just U. I
never understood how you, as a gay man could put
anybody in that situation where I don't understand that I
was outed by a family member. Okay, but to the family, Yeah,
(08:43):
I was outed to my family too, And I can
tell you if somebody did that to the public, if
you have done that to me, Oh girl, to answer
your questions, please, I knew what I was doing was wrong.
I would tell myself all these mantras, all these talking
points to you know, be that drug addict, Well, I'm
gonna do this because of that. So yeah, I would
(09:04):
say things like, well, I'm just sharing with my friends
online what my friends in private talk about. So why
should I treat my public friends any differently than my
private friends? And not your friends. They're the audience of
these people, Okay, Perez, I want to address this with
you because last week we had Lauren Hildeggie at this
(09:28):
very table to talk about the online abuse of women,
and your name came up. And one of the things
that bothered her the most was the photo that you tweeted,
because it was almost forcing her to come out. Let's
watch it. To the point of the coming out thing,
I wasn't ready. I didn't know because I'm also Latino,
(09:49):
you know, So there was that looming thing of like
what is my community going to feel about me? And
my immediate family knew, but it was like, yeah, I
felt really yeah. I don't view myself as outing her.
That picture that was in the photo booths. She never
intended for that to get out for especially young women.
(10:10):
Sexuality is so fluid. Girls with you, I'm so certays.
You can't say for a woman like and a male
oh well, gay man, it's different, like women have sex
with women like no matter Like that's there's a lot
of women who will make out with women and don't
identify as men, And a lot of people in society
will look at two women together and they don't legitimize
(10:31):
our relationship. They're like, oh, girls make out with girls,
it's just a college phase. Oh yeah, girls together are hot, Like,
which is what you're doing right now? I think you can't.
Sexuality is very for a lot of your man you're
not a woman. You can't speak to a woman's experience.
That's not fair. When I shared those photos, I didn't
say anything negative. I just shared the photos that were
(10:52):
already trending. It's not like on the train and took
advantage that you would get more views and followers. I
wouldn't do it as taking advantage. How did I take advantage?
But that's what you said before, like, oh, you see
a good story, I'm gonna just spread it and perpetuated.
What I'm saying is just let it go, like let
her figure it out. It kind of goes back to
just like the nature of what I do or a
show like what do we do? Don't you that has
(11:17):
nothing to do with her career? Yeah, it's a story.
Why do you have now we know this story? But
as an ninity as a show, if we get a
picture from Laurie, we would have done exactly stop. That's
my point. It was private. It was because it was
known that it was a private family photo, that it
was a wedding. It was media. This is a problem
(11:40):
as a culture of exploiting young people for things like
their sexuality, their private life. We should have people who
put flags in the sand and say no. But then
we're talking about censorship or what are you saying. I'm
not talking about censorship. I'm talking about we have somebody
right here. They've done damaging things to a lot of
people and has been on the other end of receiving hates.
(12:01):
I've accepted that in the minds of the overwhelming majority,
I am irredeemable. There is nothing I could ever do change,
grow evolved, mature to make things right with my past.
Like not even if I donated all of the money
(12:23):
that I've made over the last years, if I gave
it all away, they would say, Okay, that's nice. It
still doesn't erase his pastor that's great, he's still a
d bag or what an idiot? I can't believe he
gave away all his money. I do believe that a
lot of people view cancel culture as a form of entertainment.
Absolutely alright. YouTube star Gabby Hannah skyrocketed to fame in
(12:46):
two thousand thirteen and has consistently made headlines for online
feuds with other social media influencers. Those feuds have escalated
to online mobs calling for Gabby to be canceled. Fans
of her rivals Have you even started a petition similar
to the one that led to Perez Hilton's TikTok band. Gabby,
(13:07):
who's also building her music career, says this has devastated
her both personally and professionally. You know, w what I
say or do. It's just like everything I do is twisted. Welcome, Gabby,
this table's on fire woman, it's on something. Absolutely just
aching back there. You should have just well, I wanted here.
(13:30):
I was trying to be respectful. First of all. I
cannot tell you how honored I am to be here
with everyone at this table. I am obsessed with you
so much. Everything that you're saying leave so I feel
like you're speaking out of my journal, like everything that
you've been saying about the picture, because you are absolutely correct.
It's the equivalent of if somebody starts a rumor in
(13:52):
high school and it's kind of gossip among the mean girls,
and then somebody takes the overhead and announces it to
the entire high school, and then the principle sends a
newsletter to the entire community. That's the difference between what
they did and what you did. So validation for you
you have the Gabby show. Would you have posted that picture?
Absolutely not. My content doesn't revolve around other people, like
(14:14):
look at my top videos, like I'm making content about myself.
I would never want to make my name on I
was gonna say no offense, but yes offense. I would
never make my name on someone else's why do we
do on a TV show. I think that if it's
something involving somebody's sexuality or anything involving anybody's personal life,
I personally don't think that the media has to say
anything about anyone. And that's where I think that we
(14:36):
need a drastic shift in culture. We do love talking
about celebrities as if their characters humanity is completely out
of the window. And I say this as somebody who
obviously had a really great life online, but it's just
we have to start looking at humans as humans. If
I ask Gabby, like who are you? Are you musician, actress, entertainer,
I would identify as an artist first and foremost of
(14:57):
a lot of different kinds. That's how I like to identify.
That's what makes me feel good, and I like to
spend most of my days creating. I started this when
nobody knew what social media was and I was twenty
two years old. I just came out of college and
I remember telling people I'm going to be a miner
and people said that's not a thing, and I said
it will be, so I kind of dove into it
without really understanding what that meant. And that's also when
(15:18):
I didn't work through anything in my life yet, and
I had so many mental issues going on, and I
had so much pass trauma. I was trying to figure
out who I was. I was twenty two years old,
but now here I am and I'm thirty, and there's
so much of my life online and so much of
my energy and my privacy that people now have access
to that I wish I could eliminate. But these kids now,
of course, That's why when I see these children, I
(15:41):
was in tenth or eleventh grade when I got my
first cell phone. We had limited text messages. These kids
are on their phone all the time, and what happened
in the pandemic is they have nothing to do but
be on their phones, accessing every part of each other's lives.
Everything is digital. I went to the Internet because I
had a really hard time socializing in real life, had
a hard time making friends, and then all of a sudden,
I'm on the internet and I have all of these
(16:02):
followers who think I'm cool and I'm the popular girl.
So I waiting this addiction that Perez talked about. Absolutely.
But what upset me is when I was back there
is I was really eager to hear what you had
to say, and it feels like you can't take accountability
at all. From where I'm sitting, like, hearing you speak,
it sounds like you have no idea what you're saying.
(16:23):
You sound like such a hypocrite. You're still doing the
thing that you got canceled for. But you know you
don't have to say an you think about anyone like
you can just shut your mouth and that'd be cool too.
A lot of people can say the same thing about you.
In fact, over the last few months, many people have
come forward accusing you of very hurtful, toxic, cruel things,
(16:47):
and people can do their own research and if they do,
which you'll see, there's nothing there. I never intentionally got
into the drama community. The drama community got into me.
The online drama came to a head when Gabby posted
a series of emotional videos before deciding to take a
break from social media and walk away from her millions
(17:08):
of subscribers. Everybody's already decided that I'm like this monster
combative wants to hurt people. Person Everybody created a version
of me that's just not real, And it felt like
everyone in my actual real life, not the people who
pretend to know me based on whatever interaction they've had.
They say, it feels like the people on the internet
literally think you're the opposite of who you are, and
(17:30):
I wanted to prove them wrong. Like I just wanted
to show them who I was. But that's where the
ego comes in. Is I cared so much still about
what other people thought of Bill Now, No, not now,
but like at that point when I was like making
those videos and trying to defend myself and tell my side.
But I've always been like an oversharer. So like, if
I'm sad, I like talking about it, like a post
about it. When I show them that I'm hurt, it
(17:51):
hurts more. When people pick it apart, I'd like tell
me that I'm like thinking, or that I shouldn't be
feeling this way or what, or that I deserve it. Okay,
this is very valuable. It's important that we show the
ultimate thing that can happen consequence with popularity. Through the
course of this, I've lost two record deals, I've lost friends, opportunities,
(18:13):
money numbers. Like, there wasn't a professional, personal, financial, any
type of benefit that I've gotten from this, and I
have not wanted it. That's why I think I've tried
every single thing that I could do, and then the
only thing that I felt like I had left was Okay,
I guess I just have to tell my side. But
then halfway through that I stopped because even that I realized, like, Okay,
this is not feeding my soul in the way that
(18:35):
I wanted it to. That will affect your mental health.
Of course, you know, I've been canceled and I'm canceled
over and over again by the public. But one thing
we have not talked about, which I find sad and interesting,
is cancel culture has become so accepted in so many circles,
especially when you're talking about politics on both sides. If
(18:59):
you just agree, you don't think the way that other
people think, you're instantly canceled. And listen, I grew up
in Miami with a lot of family members. You can't
even have a conversation. I know I I don't align
with their views, but that's still my family member, and
I'm still going to love you, and that's important. And
I'm really glad you said that, because there isn't enough
(19:20):
love in disagreement. Just like I came out here, was
like I don't agree, what you're saying about like girls.
That's why I came out a little bit heated because
that that conversation was like I'm still a little bits always,
but like you and I can disagree and we can
have nothing but respect and love for each other, and
that's a good thing. So thank you for just like
pointing that out. We can all as human beings. And
(19:41):
this is something I feel like we need to work on,
is empathy. We want to try to figure out this
whole new world and what we should change in it
or how we can help it be better. To me,
what's especially is scary is that, you know, we keep
seeing now people in their twenties losing jaws over things
(20:01):
they said when they were teenagers on social media over
a decade ago. Here to help us impact this complicated
issue is n YU Communications Professor Gabrielle Gambril, Professor. How
far does cancel culture go? Like, do you hold somebody
accountable for things they said when they were children that
(20:22):
didn't have an idea of what they were doing. It
depends on how many people are coming to say that's
not okay. How many people are like, uh, I'll let
that slide. As people, no one is perfect, and we
recognize that no one is perfect. We talked about cancel culture.
We talked about people's reputation, their credibility, and their profit.
Why are you concerned with someone's credibility? Is it because
(20:44):
there's a social impact element? There is there? Because are
they harming the world? Yes, as someone doing something wrong
where you're like, actually we need to step in because
I just did research and this is wrong, and hey, guys,
I actually do need your help because justice needs to
be done. I don't even necessarily think that cancel culture
is a bad thing. I wouldn't call it cancel culture.
(21:06):
I do believe that righteous indignation could be and often
is a positive. But what is disappointing is it seems
like so often people's go to is cancel first. Where's
the line? The line is determined by the public. You know.
Bill Cosby is a convicted rapist. He was released from
(21:29):
prison on a technicality. Since his release, he has announced
plans to do a docu either series or film, and
go on tour a stand up comedy tour. I'm pretty
sure it'll sell out. Why is he being allowed now
to go on tour and do a doctorentary and it
really speaks to who's outrage, who's upset, who's trying to
(21:50):
cancel you. So if we talk about one of the
greatest entertainers of all time, Michael Jackson, yes you say
Michael Jackson, I'm I'm saying a p y t like
all day long. However, to some people, if you say
Michael Jackson, they may say, don't play that here. They
may bring up children, they may bring upstarted things. It's
based on your perception or that community you're speaking to. Now,
(22:13):
if things are of the past and things resurface, you
need to help your audience, help your community understand who
you are today. Another thing of cancel culture. But you're
a malicious Are you being rude? Are you being disrespectful?
And then that also gets to people talking about cancel
culture or bullying because when you bully someone, if you
are a bully, you are intentionally trying to hurt someone
(22:34):
and not necessarily give them better. Okay, So when it
comes to cancel culture, yes I needs too far. When
someone is contemplating their life, when someone is saying this
really hurt me, or you know, do I deserve to
be here anymore? Can I ever come back from that
that's where cancer culture can be dangerous. And again I say, parents,
(22:55):
we have to be aware of what our children are
seeing doing how much time there alone on the webbits
of very dangerous place that really is so toxic and dangerous.
I can't think of another resource like that that has
ever existed. Absolutely, and I would like to hear final
thoughts from the both of you. I think one great
(23:15):
solution is to really treat everybody like family and view
them like a cousin or a brother or a sister
and acknowledge I don't agree with that, but you're still
my brother, You're still my cousin. And if you view
people that way, you'll treat them and talk about them differently.
That's very important. We have this type of society now
(23:37):
where everybody is allowed to have an opinion, and everybody
feels really almost like they're supposed to have an opinion
on everything. I think we just need to really lead
with kindness more and also try to detach ourselves a
little bit from the conditioning that we have with social media,
which is this is all we're worth now for me
at least, like so much worth came from numbers, because
when those numbers start slipping from five million views to
(23:59):
one million. You're like, what am I doing wrong? And
now you're in the cycle of trying to please everybody
but yourself, and you lose your soul and yourself completely.
And this is a lesson for all of us. We
need to lower the temperature of our social discourse in
every way. And we can continue to silence or cancel
someone just because we disagree with them, and the only
true way forward is to respectfully engage in an open
(24:22):
dialogue and that fosters growth, empathy, and compromise. Thank you
to all of our guests who joined the table today
and to all of you for being with us. Human
beings are going to make mistakes. You've made mistakes. I've
made mistakes. May I've made no mistakes. We keep growing
until the day we die. If you think you know
(24:43):
it all, you don't know anything, because we'll continue to
evolve every day and maybe we're all coming out of
the dark. Maybe thanks for listening. To join the Red
Table Talk family and become a part of the conversation.
Follow us at Facebook dot com, forward slash, red table Talk, Stefans.
(25:04):
Red Table Talk via Stefans is a production of Westbrook
Studios in partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael Tura podcast Network.
For more podcasts from my heart, visit the I heart
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