April 1, 2021 • 31 mins
Welcome to Reparations Fight Club!The only rule about Reparations Fight Club is that in America there is no Reparations Fight Club! Erika and Whitney settle in ringside to call the shots, as the stakes are raised in this bare-knuckle bout between: The Case Against Reparations and The Case For Reparations! Evanston, IL history-maker, Alderwoman “I-got-it-done” Robin Rue Simmons, squares up against conservative talkie Larry “Get-out-my-face” Elder! And Houston’s favorite, Sheila “Action-Jack-you-up-son” Lee, delivers a flurry of HR40 flavored uppercuts to reparations gainsayer, Louisiana’s own Mike “Hell-no” Johnson! Folks it’s a blood feud, and a close match, but in the end is The Case For Reparations too weary to withstand the centuries of quicksand, inertia and f*ckery from The Case Against Reparations?!...Let’s listen!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Erica Alexander and I'm Whitney Dow. Welcome to Reparations
The Big Payback, a production of Color Farm Media, I
Heart Radio and The Black Effect Podcast Network Day. Whitney,
we're halfway through this journey now, how are you feeling
about it? Man? Well, it's been quite a ride, you know.
I did not expect to find myself here, you know.
(00:26):
And it's also been an education. As you know, I
came into this thing. I believe in reparations. I believe
in the necessity of reparations, and I also knew it
was a really complicated subject as well. How do you
go about it? Who gets them? And actually what does
it mean when American society decides to do something like this? Yeah,
and what if we don't, you know, right, because it's
(00:46):
not just a financial issue, it's a moral issue, and
it's also a practical issue. How do you do this?
I think if something Tony Morrison said to Charlie Rose
that growing up she always felt superior, morally, superior to
white people. Part of at is about the dead old,
the unpaid debt, white America or America in quotes, Oh
(01:06):
and are those the same thing? Yeah? Well, I don't know.
I mean, wait, but until that debt is paid, as
Seeley says in the Color Purple, until you do right
by me, and you're gonna be amazed. I can finish this.
Everything you think about is going to crumble, or maybe
everything you believe about yourself is gonna crumble. This is
a serious warning to America. Let's call it America for now,
(01:29):
the debtor or the indebted entity. Well, now that we
bring it up, I've always felt that sense of superiority. Really, yeah,
I did shown up growing up. I certainly didn't need
to oppress somebody to feel a sense of self worth. Well,
you know, growing up a sort of a quote normal
white guy in Cambridge, Massachusetts. You know, we talked a
lot about that in my house. I grew up in
(01:49):
a very liberal house. This idea of discrimination against black people.
I grew up in the seventies during the bussing era,
so it was like really apparent all around us. But
there wasn't a sense that we were oppressing anybody. Yeah,
which is freaky because especially when Europe in Massachusetts, you know,
that's all they did, that's what that was their hobby.
But you know, that's the thing you hear from white
(02:10):
people time after time. I didn't have any slaves. Are
you looking at me? Yeah? But in terms of awareness
of white privilege and that language of white privilege wasn't
even around then, I think that it was something that
was sort of like way out there. I think that
the people that I knew and the people that believed
they were doing good saw themselves as acting against a structure.
(02:31):
They didn't actually see themselves as part of the structure. Yes,
but they were already complicit in a moral crime. And
I think that that's one of the things about this
debate on reparations, talking about complicity in a way white
people have not heard before, in a way they can
hear it, and black people too. You know, there should
be a book how to talk to your white friends
when you're talking about their moral complicity in an ongoing
monstrous crime. For Dumming, Is this something we're going to
(02:55):
write together? Erica? Every day, we write the book with
me every day, And I think some days the book
seems to write itself. I think, what do they say,
history repeats itself the first time as a tragedy, the
second time as what a prize fight? Prize fight? Mm
(03:16):
tonight our main event, the heavyweight bout. We've all been
waiting for the epic battle between the Case for Reparations
and the Case against Reparations. I'm your host, Erica Alexander,
here in historic Madison Square Garden to bring you all
(03:37):
the thrilling round by round action in this colossal matchup.
Joining me at ringside is color man Whitney. Dow Whitney.
I think it's fair to say we're about to witness history.
That's right, Erica, and what a thrill to be here
to see it tonight. Fair is the name of the game,
and history is in the ring tonight. You can say
that again, History is in the ring tonight. Okay, all right,
(03:59):
sat The stakes in this fight couldn't be higher. Black
people in America's stand to gain a kind of reckoning,
both moral and financial, for the crime of slavery and
the deprivations that follow. Is it an idea whose time
has come? Well, it's certainly been gaining traction lately. The
question is would Black America's gain be White America's loss.
(04:22):
No one likes to face up to ugly truth's and
no one likes to give up money. Let's talk about
tonight's contenders. The reigning chip is the case against reparations
coming to the ring, weighing in at over four hundred years.
The case against reparation says, what more do you people want?
(04:42):
Slavery and all that bad stuff was a long time ago.
Enough is enough, That was then, this is now, Get
over it, get on with it. Fair is fair, sort
of a series of one two punches. Exactly Sorry, I
got a little carried away. And tonight's challenger, our challenger.
Tonight is the case four reparations coming to the ring,
(05:05):
also weighing in it over four hundred years. That case
for reparation says, are you kidding? The forced, unpaid labor
of millions of black people built this country and its
wealth under slavery, which Lincoln said, if slavery is not wrong,
nothing is wrong. So slavery and Jim Crow and their
cruel consequences are moral crimes against a group of people
(05:30):
that need to be redressed. But there's also the practical,
the economic issue of helping to level the playing field
for slaveries still disenfranchised modern day legal ties. I'm sorry,
I thought you just said legal tease, I said, legatees
Airs descendants inheritors in a sense, we're all inheritors. You've
been doing your homework, color man. Well, when you're a
(05:52):
white color man, you gotta try harder. That's the bell
for a round one. Leading off the case for reparations
will be the Evanston, Illinois alder women who may history,
which he passed the first local reparations bill. She's fast.
You won't see her coming, but she gets the job done.
Give it up for Robin Rules, Simmons. Reparations are due
(06:18):
because it's an unsettled debt in this nation. We have
over four hundred years of various forms of enslavery, and
we know that chadow enslavement has been outlawed, but this
nation was built on kidnapping Africans, torturing them, enslaving us,
and later transitioning it into lynching and jim crowing. And
(06:41):
then you know redlining and over policing and racial terra
and predatory lending practices and micro and macro aggressions and
all forms of oppression and crimes against our humanity as
a black nation, and we have not been able to overcome.
We have not been able to enjoy the same livability
as our white friends and neighbors in this nation. We
(07:03):
have not met the standard of the values that we
say of liberty and justice for all in this nation.
For black folks, we still are excluded from the American
dream and the liberties that we have earned and are
worthy of. So reparations are in order because it is
the only way to right the wrong of this nation
(07:24):
that continues today. Reparations are in order, their overdue because
it is the only legislative process or tool to respond
in a way of redress and repair for damages and
egregious actions and crimes against the humanity of black people.
Reparations are in order because of the wealth gap, the
(07:45):
achievement gap over policing. Just look at look at the
public lynching of George Floyd. Look at the outcomes and
the impact of the COVID pandemic and the disparate conditions
of the black community, and how it impacted our health
with underlying health conditions, and how it financially further crippled us.
And we have not yet overcome from the financial crisis
(08:07):
of two thousand and eight. And reparations are overdue, but
more tangibly because a moral argument hasn't been enough. It
will lift up all of America, increase the tax base.
It will increase home ownership rates that will make safer neighborhoods.
It will provide more college degrees which would create more
(08:28):
high paying career paths, and more black businesses would be
launched and more black folks would be employed because we
hire black people. It would begin to heal this nation
in a way that we have not addressed. A moral
document in this nation is our budget. And until we
put funding behind our actions and a action plan that
is viable and forward moving, we will not get to
(08:51):
the healing that we say we all want to experience
here in this nation. In two thousand and nineteen, our city,
after an extensive community process, says passed the nation's first
reparation that's funded by adult use cannabis sales tax. We
said yes to reparations are in order. We said yes
to putting action and funding behind our commitment to black
(09:13):
lives matter and the things that we value. We took
a huge jump beyond apology and ceremony into action towards repair.
And so what happened is we said yes to giving
a twenty dollar direct benefit to qualify black residents in
Evanson or their direct descendants because of our city's practice
(09:36):
of enforcing anti black housing policies that stripped away. Well,
it's important for our city because now we have proven
that we have the will and the heart to advance
something for the black community, specifically, we have proven that
we are committed to reparatory justice, and we can now
continue to do more programming. We can expand that fund,
(09:59):
we could look at other areas within our purview of
damages to the Black community, and now we can hold
our institutional partners that were accomplices to our conditions in
the black community accountable to their role. That's including universities, corporations,
family foundations, other government agencies like the state, and of
(10:20):
course HR forty. So it was significant for Evanston because
it's our road to repair. We're on our way. But
I believe that it was a significant action for this
nation because it shows what is possible through a legislative
process when the leaders and the community have the heart
and the will to advance something tangible and measurable. It
(10:42):
shows what is possible, and I believe that all other
cities are feeling an accountability to their Black communities to
do something similar and appropriate for their cities. One thing
that I have learned about this reparation movement and that
I remain in awe of, is the foundation of the movement,
(11:02):
and I'll start within Cobra. They were able to work
with John Conyers to advance reparations thirty two years ago.
They were fighting the fight that we fight today. They
are responsible for the progress that we have today. They
made Evanston's victory possible. They're making HR forties momentum victory
(11:25):
possible because they've got us to this point in two
thousand and twenty one where we're advancing and passing a
local initiative and where we're very close to advancing HR
forty through legislative process. Stepping into the squared circle here
to represent the case against reparations as a nationally known
(11:47):
conservative talk show host, and he's a veteran puncher and
counter puncher, Larry Elder. Black people have overcome to the
point now where only of black people are below the
federally defined level of poverty. Still too high, but in
nineteen forty that number was eighty seven percent, and twenty
(12:09):
years later that number had been reduced to forty seven percent,
a forty point drop in twenty years. That is the
greatest twenty year period of economic expansion for the history
of black Americans. And notably, they came before the Brown
Versus Board of Education decision, that came before the Civil
Rights of bills of nineteen sixty four nineteen sixty five.
Despite all of this racism, all of this prejudice black
(12:30):
people still overcame. In nineteen sixty four, Martin Duviking gave
an interview to the BBC and he said he was
surprised at the changes that have taken place in America
in recent years, and he believed that a black person
could become president in forty years time or maybe even less.
That's roughly around the time when Obama became president. And
(12:50):
Martin Luther King did not say, we will know when
we've arrived at the Promised Land when there's a black
coach of Notre Dame, which has happened. When there is
a black female who's the president of an Ivy League university,
which has happened. When blacks are mayors of all the
major cities in America, which has happened. When blacks are
police chiefs of the major cities in America, When they
are superintendents of schools of America, or mayors of America,
(13:13):
sometimes all three at the same time. He did not
say that. He did not say when black people become
millionaires and billionaires, which has happened. He said, when a
black person becomes president. That's one will know. We've reached
a point where people are being evaluated based on the
content of their character to the extent that it is
reasonable to expect. And the idea that slavery built America
(13:35):
is belied by the fact that at one time Virginia
was the most populous and wealthiest state in the Union,
but within a couple of generations it had fallen behind
states in the North because the South dependent upon slavery,
which impoverished the South relative to the North, which is
primarily why the North won the election. No one could
have had our very few people could have had a
(13:55):
lifehearted than my father. My father was thirteen years old
one in nineteen fifteen. He was kicked out of his
house by his mother Athens, Georgia. Jim McCrow at the
beginning of the Great Depression. The man walked down the street,
did whatever he could. Ultimately he became a pullman quarter
on the trains, which is the largest private employer of
blacks in those days travel all the world. Became a
(14:15):
marine was one of the first black marines, it told
a Montfort Court Marine. And my dad always told my
brothers and be the following, hard work wins you get
out of life. Would you put into it? You cannot
control the outcome, but you are in control of the effort.
And before you complain about what other people did to you,
go to the nearest mirror and say to yourself, what
could I have done to change the outcome? And my
(14:36):
dad always told us this, no matter how hard you work,
no matter how good you are student or later, bad
things will happen to you. How you respond to those
bad things will tell your mother and me if we
raised a man. And my father always said this about
the Democratic Party. They want to give you something for nothing,
and when you're trying to get something for nothing, you
almost always end up getting nothing for something. To them,
I would say, I'll take your share, pass it along.
(14:59):
It's been mentioned a couple of times that America has
yet to atone for sleep. Well, remember that Lyndon Johnson
launched the so called War on Poverty in nineteen sixty five,
he specifically talked about the need to redress past the
grievances for blacks. Since then, we've spent over twenty two
trillion dollars in payments to fite the so called war
on poverty. The War on poverty and various government programming
(15:21):
that was for a economically disadvantaged community did not target
the repair needed in the black community. And we have
seen a overwhelming participation from the non black community, the
white community, accessing those resources. That's about personal responsibility. They
are think tanks on the left, like the Brookings Institution,
(15:42):
and think tanks on the right like the American Enterprise
ines too. And they agree that the way to escape
parvertys to do a handful of things. Number one, finished
high school. Number two, don't have a kid until you
get married. Number three, get a job, keep a job,
and don't put that job to get another job in
Number four, avoid the criminal justice system. And they don't
say that this formula only applies to you with your wife,
just the form place to anybody. We are going to
(16:03):
have reparations. It needs to be specific and targeted to
the black community in response to the egregious conditions in
which we have singularly been exposed to in this nation
as intentional and as radical and as robust as Jim
crowing and all other forms of discrimination and black oppression
(16:25):
that we have experienced in this nation. Wow, that was
a tough first round, Whitney, I'd say both sides came
out swinging aerica, and both sides landed some very solid blows. Now,
the case against has the weight of habit and custom
on its side. Down South, they call it tradition, and
(16:45):
it's always been this way, so why shouldn't it stay
this way? Right? But the case for reparations is scrappy,
and they have to be to sort of jiu jitsu
their way around that way and try for a knockout. Ah.
They don't call it the sweet science for nothing. But
neither side here is pulling any punches. I'd make that
round just about even on points, wouldn't you, Whitney, I'd say,
so this is shaping up to be a hell of
(17:07):
a fight. Who's ahead and the count? Are these punches landing?
Which side looks like a winner? To find out, we
asked the man in the street, which man's figure speech
could be? The woman in the street, Oh, got it,
but why are they in the street just listen. Reparations
I'm not sure on that issue. I'm like conflicted right now.
(17:30):
You know what I mean. If it's going back to
the communities to help education, more community centers, I'm for it,
you know what I mean, But it got to show
you know what I mean, don't just say it. Show it.
They've been older, I mean, work hard. You're living in providing,
you know what I mean. Just for me, for instance,
I live in the projects. It took advantage of us. Yeah,
so this day is still going on. What you call
(17:51):
it right now is just organized slavery. You know what
I mean. You don't see it, but it's there. It's
got to be some changes. That's why I say I'm conflicted,
because you got something that's out there that really help
you out, that's willing to help you out. But it's
hard to tell of good from the bad nowadays. I'm
definitely four reparations. I believe that reparations would allow African
American people to level up to what we've missed over
(18:14):
the years, kind of get on a level playing field
with everybody else and keep pushing from there. So I
definitely am before and made the best man win. I'm
pretty sure I'm in favor of it because if you
go back far enough, while my ancestors are able to
actually trace back my timeline as a white person in America,
and I can see financially where I was even come
from a while other people who were taken from different
(18:37):
countries and continents, they don't have that ability. Their financial
liberty was stripped from them before they even got to
this country. So I feel it's only right. The fact
that they had to work was at twelve generations that
we forced slaves to work in this country before the
Emancipation Procommission went through. That's fall generations of lost financial
income right there. And while that's twelve generations of financial income,
(18:57):
other people will been able to character. So I think
it's about time we're able the touchback cop or was
it the donkey and a and like a personage of
land and Abraham Winkeld promised I would like my forty
acres in the view, which is more than was offered. Now.
Forty acres is a pretty good money and for reparations
because black people in this country had an unfair start,
(19:19):
and there were systems in place that did not allow
black people in America to live free. And so if
those systems which continue to exist and perpetuate violence against
black people and black bodies in this country, action has
to be taken, and it's on us. It's on our
government to support the people who built this country. Money
(19:42):
is power. If we don't have access to money, then
we don't have access to move forward. So reparations is
a start to have us have the power so we
can move forward to do something that we want to
do with the money. But no amount of money will
make up for the deliberate, harmful practices that our family
(20:07):
and our ancestors have had to endure. This crowd came
to see a fight, and they're getting a fight. There's
the bell for round two. Who do we have carrying
on the case for reparations and coming to the center
of the ring. You know her, you love her? Now
(20:27):
serving her four term as a Democrat in Congress representing
the great City of Houston, Texas, including Beyonce Noels Carter
and a proud champion of HR forty, the reparations phil
here is US Representative Sheila Jackson Lee. HR forty is
in fact the response of the United States of America
(20:50):
long overdue. Slavery is the original sin. Slavery has never
received an apology. The number of Africans who died in
the New Passage over two million. Number of enslaves who
died during slavery, first, second and third generation over two
point five million. Who has a history like that. Reparations
(21:12):
should be welcomed by all Americans, for we are not
asking one American to give one payment. What we're saying
is it's the only way that slavery ended was a
governmental action of the thirteenth Amendment. Governmental action and reconstruction
failed after twelve years because it was imploded by governmental people,
(21:35):
and after reconstruction, a reign of terror that had never
been seen, the hanging fruit, the lynching, the oppression of voting,
the tearing away of land, and the amazing concept of
the continuing de jure and de facto impact of slavery. Today,
one million African Americans are incarcerated. That is a continuing
(21:57):
impact of Black children live in poverty compared to eleven
percent of white children. The national averages eighteen percent would
suggest the percentage of black children living in poverty is
more than a hundred and fifty even In spite of
the glorious overcoming of the talent that is part of
our community, the scrapping together of making sure our children
(22:19):
received education, the putting together something out of nothing, we
still have been impacted. Black people in America are the
descendants of Africans kidnapped and transported to the United States
with the explicit complicity of the U. S. Government and
every arm of the United States lawmaking and law enforcement infrastructure,
and dehumanizing and atrocities of slavery were not isolated occurrences,
(22:43):
but mandated by federal laws that were codified and enshrined
in the constitution. Role of the federal government and supporting
the institution of slavery and subsequent discrimination erected against blacks
is an injustice that must be formally acknowledged and addressed.
I just simply asked, why not and why not now?
If not all of us, then who God bless us
(23:05):
as we pursue the final justice for those who lived
in slavery for two hundred and fifty years in the
United States of America. Please support HR forty well. She
certainly got her shots in Now all greased and gloved
and ready to rumble is another US representative, a Republican
(23:28):
repping Louisiana's proud fourth Congressional district. He's a lawyer and
a former radio talk show host, so you know he
can bring it. Making the case against reparations. Here's Congressman
Mike Johnson. Just consider this, Okay. There are tens of
(23:50):
millions of today's non African Americans who are descended from
people who arrived in the country, of course after slavery ended,
and therefore they can't be held responsible for its legacy. Indeed,
only a small percentage of the total American population were
slave owners. For the aforementioned reasons and many others, such
an approach has been widely unpopular, at least in our
recent history. In the nineteen seventies, civil rights organizations openly
(24:13):
rejected the idea of reparations, which the double a CPS
assistant director himself called quote an the iological, diversionary and
paltry way out for guilt ridden whites unquote. See. The
legal question is the federal government can't constitutionally provide compensation
today to a specific racial group because other members of
that group, maybe several generations ago, were discriminated against and
(24:35):
treated in humanely. According to the U. S. Supreme Court,
they would refer to that as an unconstitutional racial preference,
and the federal government is not allowed to provide race
based remedies that are quote ageless in their reach into
the past and timeless in their ability to affect the
future unquote. Now listen, I get it. I've read the scholarship.
I know that some proponents of this legislation believe that
the very discussion of reparations itself would be cathartic for
(24:58):
oig nation. But we have to ask if discussions can
result in justice today, they certainly probably won't provide consensus. Instead,
many people have good conscience believe they'll distract from the
many persistent causes of current racial disparities. They certainly exist.
The despicable racism of America's past is part of that,
but so are other social and cultural dynamics, which are
(25:20):
themselves often negatively influenced by well intended government policies. When
you are behind in a foot race, the Reverend Martin
Luther King Jr. Said in nineteen sixty three, the only
way to get ahead is to run faster than the
man in front of you. So Dr King's words reflect
an important tradition of self reliance that has had eloquent
advocates in the African American community. Frederick Douglass, book or T. Washington, W. E. B. Dubois,
(25:41):
and many others. All them we're saying, in their different
ways that African Americans were not powerless to better their
lives until America owned up to its historical sins and
offered them a generous financial settlement. The point is as
important today as ever. Those great leaders encourage people to
take control of and responsibility for their own lives, because
that gives every human being a greater sense of meaning, purpose,
and satisfaction. The premise of HR forty and similar legislation, however,
(26:05):
well did they They may be risks communicating the opposite message.
Would it propagator worldview that says external forces from a
century and a half ago were directing the fate of
Black Americans today? I mean, it's an honest question, some
people ask. I think people who areheartedly agree that our
nation is still in the process of healing from its
reprehensible sins of the past can ask that question. Some
(26:27):
aren't you, Well, you weren't there. It's in and so
the reason why people afraid of reparation because they don't
know their history. They don't study anything. People who are
victimized for no other reason for who they were. They
are Rustin, who organized the nineteen sixty three March on
Washington and was one of Martin Luther King Jr's closest advisers,
described the concept as quote a ridiculous idea unquote. Barack
(26:48):
Obama opposed reparations when he ran for president in two
thousand and eight, and Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders did
as well eight years later. This is now an accelerated
or updated civil rights era. We need catastrophic change in
the embedded disparities. Let's try to look it in the
eye and address it as Americans together. There's no doubt
(27:10):
that prejudice exists in our society, just as it has
in every society since the fall of Man in the garden.
The question, the honest question we have, is what do
we do about it? WHOA? That was a surprisingly strong
round for the case against reparations. They had the other
side on the ropes. And now wait, wait, the case
(27:30):
for reparations is down for the count WHOA, Yes, Erica,
just because the case against reparations. Defending the status quo
doesn't mean they didn't come ready to fight. They got
in some serious botty blows in that round. You could
feel them from here. Oh oh, is not looking good, Whitney.
(27:57):
Oh no, it's not the case for reparations. Had better
get up quick next time on reparations. The big payback.
The match between the case four reparations and the case
against reparations continues. If non blacks are forced to pay
(28:18):
for compensation or something from which they do not feel responsible,
that is not going to help race relations at all.
In fact, the attitude that most non blacks would take
they're being shaken down for something that's not their fault.
This is not about taking from you because you ain't
the government. You don't have enough money to pay us.
This is not about taking from you because you're not
(28:39):
the private corporations they have profited from us being a
stock and a bunt. The federal government never owned a
single slave. Slavery was a private practice. If private individuals
the United States think that black people owed some sort
of conversation, then by all means reach into their own
pockets and make those payments. But somehow to punish all
(29:00):
taxpayers or something from which they had absolutely no responsibility
to me is completely wrong. Now people outside the Afriman
community that say, well I wasn't a slave on them,
or I was in nowhere there you benefit from what
your grandparents got. If we finally get out, just do
it's actually beneficially used because finally you'll get an opportunity
(29:22):
to not be seeing it is somehow we're weight around
your neck while you're trying to swim. We'll be free
to do what we need to do. The idea that
blacks are somehow, hundreds of years later mentally shackled by
the fact that they came as enslaved people makes no
sense at all. I would like to tell white people
on the other side of this. At some point you
have to say to yourself, I have benefited. So when
(29:44):
Mitch McConnell say that was a hundred fifty years ago,
mit you seventy five. That was two minches ago. So
you could die, come back live again. And that's how
cooch slavery is meet. So not only a reparations to
cash payout, they need to be long term. As a
d me purposeful systems and organizations set up that puts
(30:04):
Black people who were brought in here his beast in
shadow on a pathway to having their full rights and
prible to just recognized and enjoyed. And I guarantee you,
the better the economy is in the African American community,
the better the overall econom legal. This podcast is produced
by Eric Alexander bennar Non and Whitney Dow. The executive
(30:26):
producers are Charlemagne the God and Dolly s. Bishop. The
Supervising Producer is Nicole Childers and the lead producer is
Devin Maddock Robins. The producer writer is Serice Castle, and
the Associate producer is Kevin Fan with additional research support
provided by Nile Bliss. This episode was written by Tony Purrier.
Sound designed by Chelsea Daniel. Original music by dj D
(30:50):
t P Reparations. The Big Payback is a production of
color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and The Black Effect
Podcast Network in association with Best Case Studios. For more
podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
(31:12):
Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
I'm Erica Alexander and I'm Whitney Dow. Welcome to Reparations
The Big Payback, a production of Color Farm Media, I
Heart Radio and The Black Effect Podcast Network Day. Whitney,
we're halfway through this journey now, how are you feeling
about it? Man? Well, it's been quite a ride, you know.
I did not expect to find myself here, you know.
(00:26):
And it's also been an education. As you know, I
came into this thing. I believe in reparations. I believe
in the necessity of reparations, and I also knew it
was a really complicated subject as well. How do you
go about it? Who gets them? And actually what does
it mean when American society decides to do something like this? Yeah,
and what if we don't, you know, right, because it's
(00:46):
not just a financial issue, it's a moral issue, and
it's also a practical issue. How do you do this?
I think if something Tony Morrison said to Charlie Rose
that growing up she always felt superior, morally, superior to
white people. Part of at is about the dead old,
the unpaid debt, white America or America in quotes, Oh
(01:06):
and are those the same thing? Yeah? Well, I don't know.
I mean, wait, but until that debt is paid, as
Seeley says in the Color Purple, until you do right
by me, and you're gonna be amazed. I can finish this.
Everything you think about is going to crumble, or maybe
everything you believe about yourself is gonna crumble. This is
a serious warning to America. Let's call it America for now,
(01:29):
the debtor or the indebted entity. Well, now that we
bring it up, I've always felt that sense of superiority. Really, yeah,
I did shown up growing up. I certainly didn't need
to oppress somebody to feel a sense of self worth. Well,
you know, growing up a sort of a quote normal
white guy in Cambridge, Massachusetts. You know, we talked a
lot about that in my house. I grew up in
(01:49):
a very liberal house. This idea of discrimination against black people.
I grew up in the seventies during the bussing era,
so it was like really apparent all around us. But
there wasn't a sense that we were oppressing anybody. Yeah,
which is freaky because especially when Europe in Massachusetts, you know,
that's all they did, that's what that was their hobby.
But you know, that's the thing you hear from white
(02:10):
people time after time. I didn't have any slaves. Are
you looking at me? Yeah? But in terms of awareness
of white privilege and that language of white privilege wasn't
even around then, I think that it was something that
was sort of like way out there. I think that
the people that I knew and the people that believed
they were doing good saw themselves as acting against a structure.
(02:31):
They didn't actually see themselves as part of the structure. Yes,
but they were already complicit in a moral crime. And
I think that that's one of the things about this
debate on reparations, talking about complicity in a way white
people have not heard before, in a way they can
hear it, and black people too. You know, there should
be a book how to talk to your white friends
when you're talking about their moral complicity in an ongoing
monstrous crime. For Dumming, Is this something we're going to
(02:55):
write together? Erica? Every day, we write the book with
me every day, And I think some days the book
seems to write itself. I think, what do they say,
history repeats itself the first time as a tragedy, the
second time as what a prize fight? Prize fight? Mm
(03:16):
tonight our main event, the heavyweight bout. We've all been
waiting for the epic battle between the Case for Reparations
and the Case against Reparations. I'm your host, Erica Alexander,
here in historic Madison Square Garden to bring you all
(03:37):
the thrilling round by round action in this colossal matchup.
Joining me at ringside is color man Whitney. Dow Whitney.
I think it's fair to say we're about to witness history.
That's right, Erica, and what a thrill to be here
to see it tonight. Fair is the name of the game,
and history is in the ring tonight. You can say
that again, History is in the ring tonight. Okay, all right,
(03:59):
sat The stakes in this fight couldn't be higher. Black
people in America's stand to gain a kind of reckoning,
both moral and financial, for the crime of slavery and
the deprivations that follow. Is it an idea whose time
has come? Well, it's certainly been gaining traction lately. The
question is would Black America's gain be White America's loss.
(04:22):
No one likes to face up to ugly truth's and
no one likes to give up money. Let's talk about
tonight's contenders. The reigning chip is the case against reparations
coming to the ring, weighing in at over four hundred years.
The case against reparation says, what more do you people want?
(04:42):
Slavery and all that bad stuff was a long time ago.
Enough is enough, That was then, this is now, Get
over it, get on with it. Fair is fair, sort
of a series of one two punches. Exactly Sorry, I
got a little carried away. And tonight's challenger, our challenger.
Tonight is the case four reparations coming to the ring,
(05:05):
also weighing in it over four hundred years. That case
for reparation says, are you kidding? The forced, unpaid labor
of millions of black people built this country and its
wealth under slavery, which Lincoln said, if slavery is not wrong,
nothing is wrong. So slavery and Jim Crow and their
cruel consequences are moral crimes against a group of people
(05:30):
that need to be redressed. But there's also the practical,
the economic issue of helping to level the playing field
for slaveries still disenfranchised modern day legal ties. I'm sorry,
I thought you just said legal tease, I said, legatees
Airs descendants inheritors in a sense, we're all inheritors. You've
been doing your homework, color man. Well, when you're a
(05:52):
white color man, you gotta try harder. That's the bell
for a round one. Leading off the case for reparations
will be the Evanston, Illinois alder women who may history,
which he passed the first local reparations bill. She's fast.
You won't see her coming, but she gets the job done.
Give it up for Robin Rules, Simmons. Reparations are due
(06:18):
because it's an unsettled debt in this nation. We have
over four hundred years of various forms of enslavery, and
we know that chadow enslavement has been outlawed, but this
nation was built on kidnapping Africans, torturing them, enslaving us,
and later transitioning it into lynching and jim crowing. And
(06:41):
then you know redlining and over policing and racial terra
and predatory lending practices and micro and macro aggressions and
all forms of oppression and crimes against our humanity as
a black nation, and we have not been able to overcome.
We have not been able to enjoy the same livability
as our white friends and neighbors in this nation. We
(07:03):
have not met the standard of the values that we
say of liberty and justice for all in this nation.
For black folks, we still are excluded from the American
dream and the liberties that we have earned and are
worthy of. So reparations are in order because it is
the only way to right the wrong of this nation
(07:24):
that continues today. Reparations are in order, their overdue because
it is the only legislative process or tool to respond
in a way of redress and repair for damages and
egregious actions and crimes against the humanity of black people.
Reparations are in order because of the wealth gap, the
(07:45):
achievement gap over policing. Just look at look at the
public lynching of George Floyd. Look at the outcomes and
the impact of the COVID pandemic and the disparate conditions
of the black community, and how it impacted our health
with underlying health conditions, and how it financially further crippled us.
And we have not yet overcome from the financial crisis
(08:07):
of two thousand and eight. And reparations are overdue, but
more tangibly because a moral argument hasn't been enough. It
will lift up all of America, increase the tax base.
It will increase home ownership rates that will make safer neighborhoods.
It will provide more college degrees which would create more
(08:28):
high paying career paths, and more black businesses would be
launched and more black folks would be employed because we
hire black people. It would begin to heal this nation
in a way that we have not addressed. A moral
document in this nation is our budget. And until we
put funding behind our actions and a action plan that
is viable and forward moving, we will not get to
(08:51):
the healing that we say we all want to experience
here in this nation. In two thousand and nineteen, our city,
after an extensive community process, says passed the nation's first
reparation that's funded by adult use cannabis sales tax. We
said yes to reparations are in order. We said yes
to putting action and funding behind our commitment to black
(09:13):
lives matter and the things that we value. We took
a huge jump beyond apology and ceremony into action towards repair.
And so what happened is we said yes to giving
a twenty dollar direct benefit to qualify black residents in
Evanson or their direct descendants because of our city's practice
(09:36):
of enforcing anti black housing policies that stripped away. Well,
it's important for our city because now we have proven
that we have the will and the heart to advance
something for the black community, specifically, we have proven that
we are committed to reparatory justice, and we can now
continue to do more programming. We can expand that fund,
(09:59):
we could look at other areas within our purview of
damages to the Black community, and now we can hold
our institutional partners that were accomplices to our conditions in
the black community accountable to their role. That's including universities, corporations,
family foundations, other government agencies like the state, and of
(10:20):
course HR forty. So it was significant for Evanston because
it's our road to repair. We're on our way. But
I believe that it was a significant action for this
nation because it shows what is possible through a legislative
process when the leaders and the community have the heart
and the will to advance something tangible and measurable. It
(10:42):
shows what is possible, and I believe that all other
cities are feeling an accountability to their Black communities to
do something similar and appropriate for their cities. One thing
that I have learned about this reparation movement and that
I remain in awe of, is the foundation of the movement,
(11:02):
and I'll start within Cobra. They were able to work
with John Conyers to advance reparations thirty two years ago.
They were fighting the fight that we fight today. They
are responsible for the progress that we have today. They
made Evanston's victory possible. They're making HR forties momentum victory
(11:25):
possible because they've got us to this point in two
thousand and twenty one where we're advancing and passing a
local initiative and where we're very close to advancing HR
forty through legislative process. Stepping into the squared circle here
to represent the case against reparations as a nationally known
(11:47):
conservative talk show host, and he's a veteran puncher and
counter puncher, Larry Elder. Black people have overcome to the
point now where only of black people are below the
federally defined level of poverty. Still too high, but in
nineteen forty that number was eighty seven percent, and twenty
(12:09):
years later that number had been reduced to forty seven percent,
a forty point drop in twenty years. That is the
greatest twenty year period of economic expansion for the history
of black Americans. And notably, they came before the Brown
Versus Board of Education decision, that came before the Civil
Rights of bills of nineteen sixty four nineteen sixty five.
Despite all of this racism, all of this prejudice black
(12:30):
people still overcame. In nineteen sixty four, Martin Duviking gave
an interview to the BBC and he said he was
surprised at the changes that have taken place in America
in recent years, and he believed that a black person
could become president in forty years time or maybe even less.
That's roughly around the time when Obama became president. And
(12:50):
Martin Luther King did not say, we will know when
we've arrived at the Promised Land when there's a black
coach of Notre Dame, which has happened. When there is
a black female who's the president of an Ivy League university,
which has happened. When blacks are mayors of all the
major cities in America, which has happened. When blacks are
police chiefs of the major cities in America, When they
are superintendents of schools of America, or mayors of America,
(13:13):
sometimes all three at the same time. He did not
say that. He did not say when black people become
millionaires and billionaires, which has happened. He said, when a
black person becomes president. That's one will know. We've reached
a point where people are being evaluated based on the
content of their character to the extent that it is
reasonable to expect. And the idea that slavery built America
(13:35):
is belied by the fact that at one time Virginia
was the most populous and wealthiest state in the Union,
but within a couple of generations it had fallen behind
states in the North because the South dependent upon slavery,
which impoverished the South relative to the North, which is
primarily why the North won the election. No one could
have had our very few people could have had a
(13:55):
lifehearted than my father. My father was thirteen years old
one in nineteen fifteen. He was kicked out of his
house by his mother Athens, Georgia. Jim McCrow at the
beginning of the Great Depression. The man walked down the street,
did whatever he could. Ultimately he became a pullman quarter
on the trains, which is the largest private employer of
blacks in those days travel all the world. Became a
(14:15):
marine was one of the first black marines, it told
a Montfort Court Marine. And my dad always told my
brothers and be the following, hard work wins you get
out of life. Would you put into it? You cannot
control the outcome, but you are in control of the effort.
And before you complain about what other people did to you,
go to the nearest mirror and say to yourself, what
could I have done to change the outcome? And my
(14:36):
dad always told us this, no matter how hard you work,
no matter how good you are student or later, bad
things will happen to you. How you respond to those
bad things will tell your mother and me if we
raised a man. And my father always said this about
the Democratic Party. They want to give you something for nothing,
and when you're trying to get something for nothing, you
almost always end up getting nothing for something. To them,
I would say, I'll take your share, pass it along.
(14:59):
It's been mentioned a couple of times that America has
yet to atone for sleep. Well, remember that Lyndon Johnson
launched the so called War on Poverty in nineteen sixty five,
he specifically talked about the need to redress past the
grievances for blacks. Since then, we've spent over twenty two
trillion dollars in payments to fite the so called war
on poverty. The War on poverty and various government programming
(15:21):
that was for a economically disadvantaged community did not target
the repair needed in the black community. And we have
seen a overwhelming participation from the non black community, the
white community, accessing those resources. That's about personal responsibility. They
are think tanks on the left, like the Brookings Institution,
(15:42):
and think tanks on the right like the American Enterprise
ines too. And they agree that the way to escape
parvertys to do a handful of things. Number one, finished
high school. Number two, don't have a kid until you
get married. Number three, get a job, keep a job,
and don't put that job to get another job in
Number four, avoid the criminal justice system. And they don't
say that this formula only applies to you with your wife,
just the form place to anybody. We are going to
(16:03):
have reparations. It needs to be specific and targeted to
the black community in response to the egregious conditions in
which we have singularly been exposed to in this nation
as intentional and as radical and as robust as Jim
crowing and all other forms of discrimination and black oppression
(16:25):
that we have experienced in this nation. Wow, that was
a tough first round, Whitney, I'd say both sides came
out swinging aerica, and both sides landed some very solid blows. Now,
the case against has the weight of habit and custom
on its side. Down South, they call it tradition, and
(16:45):
it's always been this way, so why shouldn't it stay
this way? Right? But the case for reparations is scrappy,
and they have to be to sort of jiu jitsu
their way around that way and try for a knockout. Ah.
They don't call it the sweet science for nothing. But
neither side here is pulling any punches. I'd make that
round just about even on points, wouldn't you, Whitney, I'd say,
so this is shaping up to be a hell of
(17:07):
a fight. Who's ahead and the count? Are these punches landing?
Which side looks like a winner? To find out, we
asked the man in the street, which man's figure speech
could be? The woman in the street, Oh, got it,
but why are they in the street just listen. Reparations
I'm not sure on that issue. I'm like conflicted right now.
(17:30):
You know what I mean. If it's going back to
the communities to help education, more community centers, I'm for it,
you know what I mean, But it got to show
you know what I mean, don't just say it. Show it.
They've been older, I mean, work hard. You're living in providing,
you know what I mean. Just for me, for instance,
I live in the projects. It took advantage of us. Yeah,
so this day is still going on. What you call
(17:51):
it right now is just organized slavery. You know what
I mean. You don't see it, but it's there. It's
got to be some changes. That's why I say I'm conflicted,
because you got something that's out there that really help
you out, that's willing to help you out. But it's
hard to tell of good from the bad nowadays. I'm
definitely four reparations. I believe that reparations would allow African
American people to level up to what we've missed over
(18:14):
the years, kind of get on a level playing field
with everybody else and keep pushing from there. So I
definitely am before and made the best man win. I'm
pretty sure I'm in favor of it because if you
go back far enough, while my ancestors are able to
actually trace back my timeline as a white person in America,
and I can see financially where I was even come
from a while other people who were taken from different
(18:37):
countries and continents, they don't have that ability. Their financial
liberty was stripped from them before they even got to
this country. So I feel it's only right. The fact
that they had to work was at twelve generations that
we forced slaves to work in this country before the
Emancipation Procommission went through. That's fall generations of lost financial
income right there. And while that's twelve generations of financial income,
(18:57):
other people will been able to character. So I think
it's about time we're able the touchback cop or was
it the donkey and a and like a personage of
land and Abraham Winkeld promised I would like my forty
acres in the view, which is more than was offered. Now.
Forty acres is a pretty good money and for reparations
because black people in this country had an unfair start,
(19:19):
and there were systems in place that did not allow
black people in America to live free. And so if
those systems which continue to exist and perpetuate violence against
black people and black bodies in this country, action has
to be taken, and it's on us. It's on our
government to support the people who built this country. Money
(19:42):
is power. If we don't have access to money, then
we don't have access to move forward. So reparations is
a start to have us have the power so we
can move forward to do something that we want to
do with the money. But no amount of money will
make up for the deliberate, harmful practices that our family
(20:07):
and our ancestors have had to endure. This crowd came
to see a fight, and they're getting a fight. There's
the bell for round two. Who do we have carrying
on the case for reparations and coming to the center
of the ring. You know her, you love her? Now
(20:27):
serving her four term as a Democrat in Congress representing
the great City of Houston, Texas, including Beyonce Noels Carter
and a proud champion of HR forty, the reparations phil
here is US Representative Sheila Jackson Lee. HR forty is
in fact the response of the United States of America
(20:50):
long overdue. Slavery is the original sin. Slavery has never
received an apology. The number of Africans who died in
the New Passage over two million. Number of enslaves who
died during slavery, first, second and third generation over two
point five million. Who has a history like that. Reparations
(21:12):
should be welcomed by all Americans, for we are not
asking one American to give one payment. What we're saying
is it's the only way that slavery ended was a
governmental action of the thirteenth Amendment. Governmental action and reconstruction
failed after twelve years because it was imploded by governmental people,
(21:35):
and after reconstruction, a reign of terror that had never
been seen, the hanging fruit, the lynching, the oppression of voting,
the tearing away of land, and the amazing concept of
the continuing de jure and de facto impact of slavery. Today,
one million African Americans are incarcerated. That is a continuing
(21:57):
impact of Black children live in poverty compared to eleven
percent of white children. The national averages eighteen percent would
suggest the percentage of black children living in poverty is
more than a hundred and fifty even In spite of
the glorious overcoming of the talent that is part of
our community, the scrapping together of making sure our children
(22:19):
received education, the putting together something out of nothing, we
still have been impacted. Black people in America are the
descendants of Africans kidnapped and transported to the United States
with the explicit complicity of the U. S. Government and
every arm of the United States lawmaking and law enforcement infrastructure,
and dehumanizing and atrocities of slavery were not isolated occurrences,
(22:43):
but mandated by federal laws that were codified and enshrined
in the constitution. Role of the federal government and supporting
the institution of slavery and subsequent discrimination erected against blacks
is an injustice that must be formally acknowledged and addressed.
I just simply asked, why not and why not now?
If not all of us, then who God bless us
(23:05):
as we pursue the final justice for those who lived
in slavery for two hundred and fifty years in the
United States of America. Please support HR forty well. She
certainly got her shots in Now all greased and gloved
and ready to rumble is another US representative, a Republican
(23:28):
repping Louisiana's proud fourth Congressional district. He's a lawyer and
a former radio talk show host, so you know he
can bring it. Making the case against reparations. Here's Congressman
Mike Johnson. Just consider this, Okay. There are tens of
(23:50):
millions of today's non African Americans who are descended from
people who arrived in the country, of course after slavery ended,
and therefore they can't be held responsible for its legacy. Indeed,
only a small percentage of the total American population were
slave owners. For the aforementioned reasons and many others, such
an approach has been widely unpopular, at least in our
recent history. In the nineteen seventies, civil rights organizations openly
(24:13):
rejected the idea of reparations, which the double a CPS
assistant director himself called quote an the iological, diversionary and
paltry way out for guilt ridden whites unquote. See. The
legal question is the federal government can't constitutionally provide compensation
today to a specific racial group because other members of
that group, maybe several generations ago, were discriminated against and
(24:35):
treated in humanely. According to the U. S. Supreme Court,
they would refer to that as an unconstitutional racial preference,
and the federal government is not allowed to provide race
based remedies that are quote ageless in their reach into
the past and timeless in their ability to affect the
future unquote. Now listen, I get it. I've read the scholarship.
I know that some proponents of this legislation believe that
the very discussion of reparations itself would be cathartic for
(24:58):
oig nation. But we have to ask if discussions can
result in justice today, they certainly probably won't provide consensus. Instead,
many people have good conscience believe they'll distract from the
many persistent causes of current racial disparities. They certainly exist.
The despicable racism of America's past is part of that,
but so are other social and cultural dynamics, which are
(25:20):
themselves often negatively influenced by well intended government policies. When
you are behind in a foot race, the Reverend Martin
Luther King Jr. Said in nineteen sixty three, the only
way to get ahead is to run faster than the
man in front of you. So Dr King's words reflect
an important tradition of self reliance that has had eloquent
advocates in the African American community. Frederick Douglass, book or T. Washington, W. E. B. Dubois,
(25:41):
and many others. All them we're saying, in their different
ways that African Americans were not powerless to better their
lives until America owned up to its historical sins and
offered them a generous financial settlement. The point is as
important today as ever. Those great leaders encourage people to
take control of and responsibility for their own lives, because
that gives every human being a greater sense of meaning, purpose,
and satisfaction. The premise of HR forty and similar legislation, however,
(26:05):
well did they They may be risks communicating the opposite message.
Would it propagator worldview that says external forces from a
century and a half ago were directing the fate of
Black Americans today? I mean, it's an honest question, some
people ask. I think people who areheartedly agree that our
nation is still in the process of healing from its
reprehensible sins of the past can ask that question. Some
(26:27):
aren't you, Well, you weren't there. It's in and so
the reason why people afraid of reparation because they don't
know their history. They don't study anything. People who are
victimized for no other reason for who they were. They
are Rustin, who organized the nineteen sixty three March on
Washington and was one of Martin Luther King Jr's closest advisers,
described the concept as quote a ridiculous idea unquote. Barack
(26:48):
Obama opposed reparations when he ran for president in two
thousand and eight, and Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders did
as well eight years later. This is now an accelerated
or updated civil rights era. We need catastrophic change in
the embedded disparities. Let's try to look it in the
eye and address it as Americans together. There's no doubt
(27:10):
that prejudice exists in our society, just as it has
in every society since the fall of Man in the garden.
The question, the honest question we have, is what do
we do about it? WHOA? That was a surprisingly strong
round for the case against reparations. They had the other
side on the ropes. And now wait, wait, the case
(27:30):
for reparations is down for the count WHOA, Yes, Erica,
just because the case against reparations. Defending the status quo
doesn't mean they didn't come ready to fight. They got
in some serious botty blows in that round. You could
feel them from here. Oh oh, is not looking good, Whitney.
(27:57):
Oh no, it's not the case for reparations. Had better
get up quick next time on reparations. The big payback.
The match between the case four reparations and the case
against reparations continues. If non blacks are forced to pay
(28:18):
for compensation or something from which they do not feel responsible,
that is not going to help race relations at all.
In fact, the attitude that most non blacks would take
they're being shaken down for something that's not their fault.
This is not about taking from you because you ain't
the government. You don't have enough money to pay us.
This is not about taking from you because you're not
(28:39):
the private corporations they have profited from us being a
stock and a bunt. The federal government never owned a
single slave. Slavery was a private practice. If private individuals
the United States think that black people owed some sort
of conversation, then by all means reach into their own
pockets and make those payments. But somehow to punish all
(29:00):
taxpayers or something from which they had absolutely no responsibility
to me is completely wrong. Now people outside the Afriman
community that say, well I wasn't a slave on them,
or I was in nowhere there you benefit from what
your grandparents got. If we finally get out, just do
it's actually beneficially used because finally you'll get an opportunity
(29:22):
to not be seeing it is somehow we're weight around
your neck while you're trying to swim. We'll be free
to do what we need to do. The idea that
blacks are somehow, hundreds of years later mentally shackled by
the fact that they came as enslaved people makes no
sense at all. I would like to tell white people
on the other side of this. At some point you
have to say to yourself, I have benefited. So when
(29:44):
Mitch McConnell say that was a hundred fifty years ago,
mit you seventy five. That was two minches ago. So
you could die, come back live again. And that's how
cooch slavery is meet. So not only a reparations to
cash payout, they need to be long term. As a
d me purposeful systems and organizations set up that puts
(30:04):
Black people who were brought in here his beast in
shadow on a pathway to having their full rights and
prible to just recognized and enjoyed. And I guarantee you,
the better the economy is in the African American community,
the better the overall econom legal. This podcast is produced
by Eric Alexander bennar Non and Whitney Dow. The executive
(30:26):
producers are Charlemagne the God and Dolly s. Bishop. The
Supervising Producer is Nicole Childers and the lead producer is
Devin Maddock Robins. The producer writer is Serice Castle, and
the Associate producer is Kevin Fan with additional research support
provided by Nile Bliss. This episode was written by Tony Purrier.
Sound designed by Chelsea Daniel. Original music by dj D
(30:50):
t P Reparations. The Big Payback is a production of
color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and The Black Effect
Podcast Network in association with Best Case Studios. For more
podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
(31:12):
Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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