April 8, 2021 • 32 mins
Welcome to Reparations: Fight Club! A quick reminder folks, ‘snitches get stitches’! Let's go! In part two Erika and Whitney are back, ringside, calling the shots, as the battle heats up. When we last left off, The Case Against Reparations landed a surprise-whammy that floored The Case For Reparations. As we resume this battle we discover the reason the match flipped n' flopped. Then our next match pits The Big Easy’s Marc Morial, history buff and head of the National Urban League, against artful dodger and proud Evanstonian resident, John Foley. And finally...cue the bass note ya'll...our Thrilla! Heavyweight genius, Michael ‘Killer Mike’ Render, delivers a first-class, Black-BBQ-Roasting to White separatist, and 'man of constant White sorrow,' Jared Taylor! Will the case FOR reparations finally prevail? Or will the case AGAINST reparations remain undefeated?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Erica Alexander and I'm Whitney Dow. Welcome to Reparations
The Big Payback, a production of Color Farm Media, I
Heart Radio, and The Black Effect Podcast Network. Hey Whitney, Hello, Erica.
Something I've always wanted to ask you. You've got one
of those old time white boy last name first named Whitney.
(00:26):
You know, I mean you can be like Dow Whitney
instead of Whitney Dow. Well, you know, Eric, I do
have a cousin named dal Whitney. You know, our family
kind of just recycles their names over and over. Are
you profiling me? No? No, No, it's just your name.
I just think it's interesting. Yeah, interesting. I just think
it's interesting. You know, that's like the ultimate you know,
(00:47):
you're in trouble with a black woman when she says
that thing. Yeah, okay, well how would you know? Not
only have I been around Erica, I've been around you
a lot. Okay, okay, Well, you know it just struck
me that we're talking and about reparations and slavery and all.
And you're from Massachusetts, right, and went to an Ivy
League school, so yes, and well, in seventeen, another Massachusetts
(01:11):
Ivy leaguer Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin. Now that
greatly strengthened the economic foundations of slavery in this country.
And it was a paradox because the cotton gin, a
labor saving device, helped make cotton profitable, vastly increasing the
spread of slavery labor from Georgia all the way down
to Texas, and preserving and prolonging slavery in the United
(01:34):
States for another seventy years. Wait a minute, Erica, you
know you can't put that on me. I'm not responsible
for the cotton gin. Yeah no, no, yeah, yeah, that's
what they all say. I just think it's interesting. Yeah, interesting.
You know, I know you don't approve and by interesting, yes, yeah,
well you know, Erica Herman Melville, another New Englander, said
(01:58):
I did not name myself wrong me not because I
have a wicked name. Well that's a good one, you know,
and I'd use it myself if my name was messed
up like that. Yeah. Well, I don't think my name's
messed up. But go on, thanks a lot. Look I
share because I care saved by the bill. To night
(02:23):
part two of our main event, the Heavyweight Bout. We've
all been waiting for the epic battle between the Case
four Reparations and the Case against Reparations. If you're just
joining us, I'm your host, Eric Alexander. I've been here
in historic Madison Square Garden since last week. Oh my dires,
(02:48):
whoa to bring you all the thrilling round by round
action in this colossal matchup? Joining me at ringside as
color man Whitney, Dow Whitney. This has been a hell
of a fight so far. Are it looks like the
Case four Reparations is down for the count? It certainly does, Erica.
But how we didn't see it because it was a
spruce shot from a Congressman Mike Johnson blindsided his opponent,
(03:13):
congress Woman's Jela Jackson Lee, when he revealed he had
a black son. What are you talking about, willis? Yes,
a black son. We took custody of Michael and made
him part of our family twenty two years ago when
we were just newlyweds and Michael was just fourteen and
out on the streets and nowhere to go on a
very dangerous path. Michael's grown now, he has his own
young family. He turns thirty six years old next week.
(03:35):
And he's a loving dad to four precious children of
his own. God has been good to us, and he's
a success story. I mentioned that today for one reason.
I personally know the challenge that he has faced early
in his life. I have walked with him through discrimination
that he had he's had to endure over the years,
and the hurdles he's sometimes faced. I know all this,
but God was I was with him. I asked Michael
this weekend what he thinks about the idea of reparations
(03:57):
and dig this wait for it, he says, his black
sun is against reparations. Riddle me that. Well, no wonder,
Sheila jackonally never saw that coming. That's certainly a new
twist on the old I've got a black friend. The
thing is a black son beats a black friend every time. Well,
with tactics like that, the case four contenders must step
up their gain. They'll need a hero, They'll need a
(04:21):
fo Wait, hang on, though, hang on, who's this coming
to the center of the ring. It's former New Orleans
mayor Mark morel is the head of the Urban League
and a champion in the High four. Reparations. Stop the count,
Stop that count. Mark Mario has something to say. We
(04:48):
have to keep a pressure all. Look, we have to
define reparations. Some people want to define reparations as a
give me a check bill. That's not reparations. Reparations could
include that, And after all, let's be clear and honest.
The United States has paid reparations before to Japanese who
(05:09):
were interred in the camps, and there are other examples.
So this is not a new radical revolutionary concept, the
notion of reparations. It is a concept that this nation
has resistant when it comes to those whose ancestors were
enslaved for two hundred and fifty years, and in the
(05:29):
case of many of us who grew up in the South,
our ancestors lived under a system of American aparthei called
segregation for another one hundred years. I can trace my
family on my mother's side all the way back to
the Whitney Plantation, which is now the Whitney Slave Museum
in Saint John, the Baptist Parish, Louisiana. That particular plantation
(05:51):
had some three hundred plus slaves. But the point of
the matter is is that I think that there's energy
in the house. We're gonna have to build the energy
in the United States Senate. I think it's time to
do this. There's an abundance of evidence which shows if
you address economic disparities that the benefit for the nation
would be that it would expand GDP by some three
(06:14):
to five trillion. Well, that's on a base let's say
six seventeen to nineteen trillion, which is a total size
of the American economy. People said, well, how is that
the case? Because you have people of color who have
been held down and structural racism has eliminated their ability
to work to their potential and to work to their
(06:37):
complete ability to contribute to themselves, their families, and to society.
And when you unleash that power, the benefits are going
to be to them and their families, but also to
society much more broaded. So I think that's why discussion
around reparations and a discussion around racial justice has to
also help people understand not just the history of what
(07:00):
has happened in this nation since sixty nineteen, but also
what is the vision for a nation that addresses the
issues of racial justice, that repairs the breach of the
last three hundred years. I mean, we have to articulate
that vision, which I think is a positive vision well
at the same time helping people understand the predicate. I
(07:22):
think it requires significant public and private investment in infrastructure,
in education, because black communities have been under invested in
public and private investment has bypassed black communities in many cities.
And it would involve investment in infrastructure, which includes investment
(07:43):
in people because years and years of under investment. You know,
when I was growing up in the worlds, you would
see neighborhoods where the street was paid for six blocks
and when all of a sudden it stopped, and then
for the next five blocks the street was kind of
like a little dirt road. And when you looked up
and you said, why is it this way? Because this
(08:04):
is where the white residents lived, and this is where
the black neighborhood started. It's basically the same neighborhood divided
this section black. This section, like this section had a playground.
The school they went to look better, had more facilities
in the school that the black kids went to. And
(08:24):
so you know, it is about investing in those things
that help us build long term sustainability, and I think
that that is important. We talk about reparations that people said, well,
let's give everybody a check. Suppose you gave everybody a check,
does that in and of itself change the structures that
produced the results we have today. So the reason why
(08:48):
I say that is not to say that compensation payment
shouldn't be part of reparations, but that, to me, it
doesn't go far enough. WHOA, that's the fight day. One
minute you're on the ropes, next you're back in the fight.
Maybe so Erica. But this next concerned citizen from Evanston,
Illinois is in it to win it, fighting for the
(09:09):
case against reparations. He's both a slugger and a ring tactician,
and he comes with a fistful effects. Meet John Folly.
When it came out that reparations were going to target
a specific group of people, it just struck with as wrong.
If somebody needs help, that helps shouldn't be dictated by
(09:32):
someone's race, creed, color, color of their hair. If you
need help, you should be color blind. I mean, it's
just as simple as that. Whether you're a hillbilly in
West Virginia or whether you're here, if you need support,
we're going to give you support as a society. And again,
that support is not dictated by your skin color, race, creed, color, agenda,
(09:53):
or whatever the case may be. This country has been
through a lot of pain, you know, the civil rights movement.
We've come a long way, and so to reopen these
wounds just divides our community instead of uniting our community.
And sometimes what we forget, which is what our media, sorry,
and politicians, they spent a lot of time dividing us
instead of uniting us. Because one thing, we all are
(10:14):
in this room right now, we're all Americans. But if
we look at slavery, Okay, slavery ended eighteen sixty five,
the Civil rights movement came in a hundred years later.
Essentially out of the Civil rights movement, there was housing reform.
There were all sorts of laws that were passed to
protect people against the ability to buy a home. So
(10:35):
basically large part of these problems were solved over forty
years ago, fifty years ago. So why are we coming
back to this. So if you think about reparations, reparations, conceptually,
it's for those that were victimized by slavery. So if
there was going to be a time to make the
reparations for the harm of slavery, I would argue that
(10:57):
that should have been done, you know, in the late
nineteenth century, now in the twenty one century. The reason
why I'm speaking up is clearly this is wrong. Some
poor family, wherever they may be, they need help, but
we're not going to give them help because their skin color.
It just struck me so morally wrong. And there's so
many things that are done in the clandestine way. So
(11:19):
you're gonna have this Latino family who needs help, and
they're gonna say that this black family got more help,
and then they're gonna turn around, and then they're going
to find a lawyer, and then the whole thing is
going to turn into a complete cluster where it could
have been avoided. And that's the tragedy. I think everybody's
life has a certain degree of burden. I think if
(11:40):
you had Bill Gates here, he would have some burden.
God only knows what it would be. But he's got
a burden. Everyone has a burden. It's how you handle
the burden. So there is the someone told me that
they're not gonna hire me because I'm not Jewish. Do
I sit there and say I'm gonna just roll over
and die, or do I sit there say fine, I'll
just find something else, you know, different times and stuff
(12:01):
like that. There's all sorts of nice jokes about having
red hair and freckles and stuff like that. You know,
you develop a thick skinning and move on. And so
I truly don't feel that there was, at least I
gues me for myself, you know, privilege, absolutely enough. My
life wouldn't have been any different if I was black,
because it's the core of who you are, you know,
underneath it orders, it's what forms you and stuff like that.
(12:24):
So whether I'm a Hispanic Black Asian, underneath all, it's
the character of who I am is who I am,
you know, quirks and all. And by the way, we
all have our quirks. We've seen what I called the ugly,
dark and awful side of American society. We showed up
at the Capitol, the intolerance, hatred, the fealty to white
(12:46):
supremacy as an operating principle for the country, versus this
idea that this nation is multi cultural, multi religious, multi orientation,
and that is undergraded by notions of justice and equity.
Because you're a white male, we're not going to give
your family help. We're going to ignore the Hispanic family
were ignore the Asian family, but we're gonna get help
(13:06):
to this black family. But all four of them need help,
you know. I went to school in the South, the
elementary school, I went to, the middle school I went
to in the high school I went to. I was
one of the first African American students to go to
all three of those schools. And I remember being indoctrinated
with the lost Cause narrative, the idea that the South
waged the Civil War for the principle of states rights
(13:29):
and that it was a war against the Northern aggression,
not that it was a war to defense slavery. So
in many respects, the narratives that many have learned have
contributed to, if you will, the racial injustice we see
in public policy even to this very day. And that's
part of this conversation. So I don't believe in white privilege,
(13:53):
Asian privilege, Hispanning privilege, but there is parental privilege. A
child that is raised by a mom and a dad
is just gonna have a statistically better outcome. While at
the same time, I'm always a believer in the vision
for the future. What's the vision for the future. What
can the nation become if these challenges are a dressed.
We have to remain vocal. We have to remain energized.
(14:15):
We have to make sure that our demands and our
needs remain at the forefront. We all have to remain
woke and in a continuous visible demand for the things
we want. This fight has more twist and turns than
a safety pin. Who's ahead and the count are these
(14:37):
punches landing? Who will emerge victorious? To find out? We
asked the man in the street, any form of reparation,
in my opinion, definitely z owed to the black community
and people of color in general. It's gonna take a
while for people to maybe come around and figure out
what's the right in appropriate way to approach it. Whether
(15:01):
it's literally money, whether it's education, whether it's actual housing, food,
you name it. We need to figure out a way
to allocate those resources to the people who need it
the most. For it's because they brought a white people
here as slaves. They have to build of America. Without them,
America would himself being the way it is to be.
(15:24):
Any time I see the famous about those slaves they
brought here, it's break my hat. They think blacks are
loos human beings I think black Americans to African Americans,
they in lots in America. Personally, I am in favor
of preparations and the form of investment into communities of
(15:48):
people who are you descended to been directly impacted by
things like jim pro or slavery before. I think that
it would be more impactful in the long term to
invest in the commun enertees, into the education, in the infrastructure,
and those communities. Of course, I'm for it. Why shouldn't
we pay back after we hurt somebody, doesn't matter how
(16:11):
many years ago it is. I support reparations because as
a society, whether it's federal or state or local government
or other critical institutions educational, healthcare, and more, we have
created a situation where there are massive, massive racial and
equities and health and safety and wealth and education and more. Therefore,
(16:32):
we have responsibility to repair that damage. That's what reparations
is all about. I've got a feeling in these final
rounds of this fight are going to be the toughest,
no kidding. Our next spider in the case for reparations
(17:00):
is none other than a battler, a rumbler, and a
true heavyweight. He's a rapper, a tireless activist, and a
proud driver of a nineteen nine Chevy and Paula all
the way from Atlanta, g A. It's killer my I
(17:24):
think that the federal government absolutely owes us something or
why because in sixteen nineteen you brought us here. So
I believe based on that that there is a formula
in which the federal government does owe us something, and
that includes money private companies that benefited off stocks and buns.
Because after the Civil War, even though the people who
(17:46):
were promised something by Fielding or the fifteen by General Sherman,
even though they didn't get ship, many landowners were under
ridden for the property they lost. And the property was
human beings who look like me. And because so when
you look at reparations, I think everything that has touched
us in a way that profited from us and we
(18:06):
did not owes us. So that's the mixture of federal government.
And that would be cash payment in my opinion, that
would be land grants and land lottery. That would be
an exemption from taxation. That would be a forgiveness of
loans and debts that are federally subsidized. That would be
given us every opportunity to gain equal footing, to take
advantage of the opportunity of being Americans. It's the same
(18:27):
thing that was done for the colonies after they broke
from Britain. It's the same thing that was done for
the immigrant population that was asked to come here and
settle the Midwest and West. So my question becomes why
everybody except us and everybody should pay who profited from it.
According to the Angelo Project that studies America's original center
slavery from six nine forward, right we are old, over
(18:50):
fifteen trillion dollars would probably come out. According to Bob Johnson,
and even my you know, my former drug dealer mathematics
would come out between three and thou thousand dollars. Let
me tell black folks on sidey South, Dad, ain't no money.
I want people to understand that besides the cash payment
which you you should get in your deserve not only
(19:12):
a reparations to cash payout. They need to be long
term and systemic, purposeful systems and organizations set up that
puts for the first time black people who were brought
here His beast and shadow on a pathway to having
their full rights in prible to just recognized and enjoy
now people outside the Afriman community that say things like
(19:34):
I wasn't a slave onner, you benefit from what your
grandparents got. I have benefited because my grandfather got the
g I bill when black soldiers who were turned from
World War two could not get the g I p
I've benefited because at the time there were factors in
Mississippi they paid white workers. Even though they were underpaying
the white workers, they paid them more than the black
So what I need poor and working class white people
(19:56):
understand that if they have to treat us fairy. So
when Mitchell, I don't say that was a hundred fifty
years ago, mit you seventy five. That was two minches ago.
So you could die, come back live again. And that's
how cooch slavery is. Mitch. You know, double me your ass.
So my great grandparents share crop about acres. Acres benefited,
(20:17):
my grandmother benefited me. But because of that, my grandmother
was able to have any education. Because of that, she
was able moved to Atlanta by her first piece of land,
which we see her own. Why don't you want to
give black folks that chance, give us our fucking land
which we were promised by Sherman's or the Field fifteen
when he left black people to die drowned in the creek.
We were promised that give us what the funk we
(20:37):
were promised, and watch how much better this entire country happen.
So I just challenged people to understand that this is
not about taking from you because you ain't the government,
you don't have enough money to pay us. This is
not about taking from you because you're not the private
corporations that profited from us being a stock in a bun.
What this is is a reckoning of the evil and
(20:58):
the original sin America did because they enslaved people who
look like our black ass right, and now it's just
time to get that core straight. And I guarantee you,
the better the economy is in the African American community,
the better the overall economy. So fight forward. Won't reparations.
We deserve it. One day they're gonna come. We just
(21:19):
might be older, dead, but I think we can, we must,
we will. I have a lot of confidence in black people.
I have a lot of confidence in this country because
we built it for the same reason your granddad who
worked at the Ford Company. Like Forward Trucks because he
knows his hands when in the building the Ford truck,
You're not gonna shave me for like in America, because
(21:39):
I helped build it and I'm not going nowhel And
I think black people need to take the mentality. If
we do, you know, we'll see more brown towns pop up.
And if we fifty cent of the South, there's no
reason we shouldn't own fifty five percent of the South.
So black people with the cornerstone, with the foundation, let's
see ourselves that way, let's move act and operate that way.
And I think we'll see systemic change within our life family. Wow,
(22:06):
that was powerful Erica. It sure was Whitney. They don't
call him killer for nothing. He's up against a man
who calls himself a race realist and a separatist. He's
a South far from the great state of Virginia. In
for the case against reparations, give it up for Jared Taylor. Well,
(22:30):
I certainly do not propose that reparations be paid for slavery.
There's no person alive who was a slave, and there's
no person alive who was a slaveholder. If you were
going to make some kind of naturally tailored solution where
by those who worst slaves would be compensated by people
who had held him the slaves. Presumably you would track
(22:53):
down the descendants of slaveholders today and also the descendants
of those slaves and work out something between those parties.
But there is no legal theory whatsoever to seek compensation
for an act that took place between private parties many
years ago, in some cases hundred two hundred three years ago.
(23:15):
And as you know the President that many people calling
for reparations point to, which is to say, the payments
by the federal government to the Asians who in the
camps during the Second World War that was made while
those people were still alive. The payments did not extend
to the children of those people. So you could argue
(23:35):
by that standard that the statute of limitations is finished
in the United States. In fact, you could argue that
American blacks are the richest, most long lived blacks, not
only in the world but in the history of the more,
you could also make the argument that Zor O'Neil hursted
me the black foot. She said, slavery is the price
(23:57):
I paid for civilization. In other words, she was in
effect grateful for the fact that her ancestors brought to
the United States, and she grew up in the United
States rather than in Africa compared to Africa. For example,
life expectancy of American blacks, although it's shorter than that
of American plates, is ten years higher than the average
(24:19):
life expectancy in Africa. And so if you want to
look at it on strictly a cost benefit basis, the
descendants of slaves living in the United States today are,
on a material basis, is vastly better off than if
their ancestors had stayed in Africa. And the idea that
blacks are somehow, hundreds of years later mentally shackled by
(24:42):
the fact that they came as enslaved people makes no
sense at all. The blacks living here today were born here,
their ancestors were born here, and somehow there's some sort
of hereditary mental paralysis that comes in the fact that
her ancestors were enslaved. That makes no sense at all.
It is completely unfair for them to expect the United
(25:04):
States government to make payments to them, and that's the
form that almost all proposals for compensation or reparations take.
The federal government never owned a single slave slavery was
a private practice. If private individuals the United States think
that black people will own some sort of compensation, then
(25:24):
by all means reach into their own pockets and make
those payments. But somehow to punish all tax payers or
something for which they had absolutely no responsibility to me
is completely wrong. I think that if you turned around
and you said, Okay, white people, your taxes are going
to go up because we're going to tax you more
(25:45):
because we're going to give money to blacks, do you
think that would improve lace relations from the United States.
On the one hand, you will never get an answer
from black people saying yes, okay, finally we've been made whole.
The black reaction will invariably be the isn't unlough? And
what do you think the white reaction is going to be?
Poor whites in particular, and you're actually gonna be paid
(26:08):
to the children of Block and Michelle Obama because they're
descended from slaves. How do you think white people or
other people, Hispanics, Asians, anybody else who feel absolutely no
personal involved in slavery, no sense of responsibility for it,
is that going to help raise relations in the United States?
Absolutely not. It will only make them worse. You can
(26:30):
go back to believe It's nineteen sixty five. Lyndon Johnson
gave the commencement address at Howard University and he says, look,
what we need is equality of results. We can't just
have the quality of opportunity. And since then there have
been compensatory programs in the form of racial conferences for blacks.
(26:50):
Is it somehow the legacy of slavery that keeps blacks proof? No,
I don't think you can make that argument. Georgia the
state out living. In the first seven years George existed,
slavery didn't exist. But after origins, South South Carolinians and
other Southern colonies like making money. They were like ship
we get in this slavery game, get us some Niggers.
Much of this was economic, so everybody wasn't racist, but
(27:13):
economically it made sense to be. There is probably some impact.
I think it would be difficult to argue that the
effect has been zero. However, if you argue that the
problem is some sort of structural light supremacy in the
United States, it's difficult to argue why some of these
other non white groups are doing so much better than lives.
(27:34):
If the United States are somehow structurally set up to
advantage plates over people who are non white. It's certainly
not working very well. At some point, the descendant of
someone that was brought here in sixteen nineteen deserves to
steer this raggedy as chill through these trouble waters. That
(27:55):
is an element of reparation that is long deserved. If
you have to go back and find people who got
the short end of the stick, you're welcome to do so.
There's an infinite number of things, but this kind of
thing is not going to sit well on people who
have absolutely no part in that, and feel no obligation
(28:15):
to make those people hold. Is it right that we
got so many handicapps playing in US? Know it won right?
Tiger wool has had to play as some substandard golfing
places it one right. The two girls from Confident, we
got dumb ass questions when they will learn to play tenants?
But boy, once they called on, look at how we forbat.
What are the penalties for being black the United States?
It's impossible to calculate them. And yes, there are some
(28:38):
cases in which a black person a black sounding resume
does not get called back as often, But there are many,
many cases that we know about in which a black
person who is applying for job or which who was
certainly applying to university gets preference over a white or
particularly over an Asian. So black people, especially black people
with distendants of thold that are brought four would explained,
(29:01):
we need to see ourselves as the start of what's next,
and need the end of what has happened. Boom, did
you see that Killer Mike wore him out? This was
a heavyweight in action. He was clear and concise, He
(29:21):
brought the energy from the ancestors, and he was throwing hammers. Baby,
he sure was, Erica. He was throwing hammers. And Jared
Taylor's race realism was just a covert way of saying
this country is for whites only. It certainly couldn't stand
up to Killer Mike's attack, and Killer Mike showed him
it's way too late for all that. Now. I don't
know about you, Whitney, but that was a clear knockout
(29:43):
for the case four reparations. Boom, I agree that was
amazing Killer Mike threw down. But but wait a minute, Erica,
we have a ruling from the judges. The judges are
declaring it a tie, a tie. It seems like the
fixes in what are you talking about? You heard it, Whitney,
you heard you even said so Killer Mike was the
(30:06):
clear winner, Yes, but they're calling it a tie. The
case against reparations is the reigning champion and the contender
doesn't take a belt and a tied score. You need
to win by decision or buy a knockout or knockout.
Why not? Are you kidding? I guess we're just not
there yet. Next time on reparations, the big payback. When
(30:30):
I was running for president, I did talk about reparations
because if you look at American politics and there's something
that you don't understand, it does not seem to make sense.
The answers race. It's not being spoken about, but it's
the colonel behind the apparent inconsistency, the apparent craziness. And
so I look at the need for everyone in America,
(30:53):
particularly white people. I mean, let's face it, this was
a system of racism and discrimination that is conceived of
and executed by white people that is continued for centuries,
and for us to move on, it's absolutely essential so
that we could have honest conversations about how to proceed
in a just fashion. It's important to retell the story
(31:15):
for everyone, specifically for white people who have benefited from
this system and executed it. And it's not enough just
to retell the story. Actions have to be taken. Let's
talk about what it will take to repair the damage,
to address the injustice. This podcast is produced by Eric Alexander,
(31:36):
Bennar Noon and Whitney Dow. The executive producers are Charlemagne
the God and Dolly s. Bishop. The Supervising Producer is
Nicole Childers and the lead producer is Devin Madock Robins.
The producer writer is Serice Castle and the Associate producer
is Kevin Fan with additional research support provided by Nile Blast.
This episode was written by Tony Purrier. Original music by
(32:00):
d J D t P Reparations. The Big Payback is
a production of color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and
The Black Effect Podcast Network in association with best Case Studios.
For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
(32:21):
heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
I'm Erica Alexander and I'm Whitney Dow. Welcome to Reparations
The Big Payback, a production of Color Farm Media, I
Heart Radio, and The Black Effect Podcast Network. Hey Whitney, Hello, Erica.
Something I've always wanted to ask you. You've got one
of those old time white boy last name first named Whitney.
(00:26):
You know, I mean you can be like Dow Whitney
instead of Whitney Dow. Well, you know, Eric, I do
have a cousin named dal Whitney. You know, our family
kind of just recycles their names over and over. Are
you profiling me? No? No, No, it's just your name.
I just think it's interesting. Yeah, interesting. I just think
it's interesting. You know, that's like the ultimate you know,
(00:47):
you're in trouble with a black woman when she says
that thing. Yeah, okay, well how would you know? Not
only have I been around Erica, I've been around you
a lot. Okay, okay, Well, you know it just struck
me that we're talking and about reparations and slavery and all.
And you're from Massachusetts, right, and went to an Ivy
League school, so yes, and well, in seventeen, another Massachusetts
(01:11):
Ivy leaguer Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin. Now that
greatly strengthened the economic foundations of slavery in this country.
And it was a paradox because the cotton gin, a
labor saving device, helped make cotton profitable, vastly increasing the
spread of slavery labor from Georgia all the way down
to Texas, and preserving and prolonging slavery in the United
(01:34):
States for another seventy years. Wait a minute, Erica, you
know you can't put that on me. I'm not responsible
for the cotton gin. Yeah no, no, yeah, yeah, that's
what they all say. I just think it's interesting. Yeah, interesting.
You know, I know you don't approve and by interesting, yes, yeah,
well you know, Erica Herman Melville, another New Englander, said
(01:58):
I did not name myself wrong me not because I
have a wicked name. Well that's a good one, you know,
and I'd use it myself if my name was messed
up like that. Yeah. Well, I don't think my name's
messed up. But go on, thanks a lot. Look I
share because I care saved by the bill. To night
(02:23):
part two of our main event, the Heavyweight Bout. We've
all been waiting for the epic battle between the Case
four Reparations and the Case against Reparations. If you're just
joining us, I'm your host, Eric Alexander. I've been here
in historic Madison Square Garden since last week. Oh my dires,
(02:48):
whoa to bring you all the thrilling round by round
action in this colossal matchup? Joining me at ringside as
color man Whitney, Dow Whitney. This has been a hell
of a fight so far. Are it looks like the
Case four Reparations is down for the count? It certainly does, Erica.
But how we didn't see it because it was a
spruce shot from a Congressman Mike Johnson blindsided his opponent,
(03:13):
congress Woman's Jela Jackson Lee, when he revealed he had
a black son. What are you talking about, willis? Yes,
a black son. We took custody of Michael and made
him part of our family twenty two years ago when
we were just newlyweds and Michael was just fourteen and
out on the streets and nowhere to go on a
very dangerous path. Michael's grown now, he has his own
young family. He turns thirty six years old next week.
(03:35):
And he's a loving dad to four precious children of
his own. God has been good to us, and he's
a success story. I mentioned that today for one reason.
I personally know the challenge that he has faced early
in his life. I have walked with him through discrimination
that he had he's had to endure over the years,
and the hurdles he's sometimes faced. I know all this,
but God was I was with him. I asked Michael
this weekend what he thinks about the idea of reparations
(03:57):
and dig this wait for it, he says, his black
sun is against reparations. Riddle me that. Well, no wonder,
Sheila jackonally never saw that coming. That's certainly a new
twist on the old I've got a black friend. The
thing is a black son beats a black friend every time. Well,
with tactics like that, the case four contenders must step
up their gain. They'll need a hero, They'll need a
(04:21):
fo Wait, hang on, though, hang on, who's this coming
to the center of the ring. It's former New Orleans
mayor Mark morel is the head of the Urban League
and a champion in the High four. Reparations. Stop the count,
Stop that count. Mark Mario has something to say. We
(04:48):
have to keep a pressure all. Look, we have to
define reparations. Some people want to define reparations as a
give me a check bill. That's not reparations. Reparations could
include that, And after all, let's be clear and honest.
The United States has paid reparations before to Japanese who
(05:09):
were interred in the camps, and there are other examples.
So this is not a new radical revolutionary concept, the
notion of reparations. It is a concept that this nation
has resistant when it comes to those whose ancestors were
enslaved for two hundred and fifty years, and in the
(05:29):
case of many of us who grew up in the South,
our ancestors lived under a system of American aparthei called
segregation for another one hundred years. I can trace my
family on my mother's side all the way back to
the Whitney Plantation, which is now the Whitney Slave Museum
in Saint John, the Baptist Parish, Louisiana. That particular plantation
(05:51):
had some three hundred plus slaves. But the point of
the matter is is that I think that there's energy
in the house. We're gonna have to build the energy
in the United States Senate. I think it's time to
do this. There's an abundance of evidence which shows if
you address economic disparities that the benefit for the nation
would be that it would expand GDP by some three
(06:14):
to five trillion. Well, that's on a base let's say
six seventeen to nineteen trillion, which is a total size
of the American economy. People said, well, how is that
the case? Because you have people of color who have
been held down and structural racism has eliminated their ability
to work to their potential and to work to their
(06:37):
complete ability to contribute to themselves, their families, and to society.
And when you unleash that power, the benefits are going
to be to them and their families, but also to
society much more broaded. So I think that's why discussion
around reparations and a discussion around racial justice has to
also help people understand not just the history of what
(07:00):
has happened in this nation since sixty nineteen, but also
what is the vision for a nation that addresses the
issues of racial justice, that repairs the breach of the
last three hundred years. I mean, we have to articulate
that vision, which I think is a positive vision well
at the same time helping people understand the predicate. I
(07:22):
think it requires significant public and private investment in infrastructure,
in education, because black communities have been under invested in
public and private investment has bypassed black communities in many cities.
And it would involve investment in infrastructure, which includes investment
(07:43):
in people because years and years of under investment. You know,
when I was growing up in the worlds, you would
see neighborhoods where the street was paid for six blocks
and when all of a sudden it stopped, and then
for the next five blocks the street was kind of
like a little dirt road. And when you looked up
and you said, why is it this way? Because this
(08:04):
is where the white residents lived, and this is where
the black neighborhood started. It's basically the same neighborhood divided
this section black. This section, like this section had a playground.
The school they went to look better, had more facilities
in the school that the black kids went to. And
(08:24):
so you know, it is about investing in those things
that help us build long term sustainability, and I think
that that is important. We talk about reparations that people said, well,
let's give everybody a check. Suppose you gave everybody a check,
does that in and of itself change the structures that
produced the results we have today. So the reason why
(08:48):
I say that is not to say that compensation payment
shouldn't be part of reparations, but that, to me, it
doesn't go far enough. WHOA, that's the fight day. One
minute you're on the ropes, next you're back in the fight.
Maybe so Erica. But this next concerned citizen from Evanston,
Illinois is in it to win it, fighting for the
(09:09):
case against reparations. He's both a slugger and a ring tactician,
and he comes with a fistful effects. Meet John Folly.
When it came out that reparations were going to target
a specific group of people, it just struck with as wrong.
If somebody needs help, that helps shouldn't be dictated by
(09:32):
someone's race, creed, color, color of their hair. If you
need help, you should be color blind. I mean, it's
just as simple as that. Whether you're a hillbilly in
West Virginia or whether you're here, if you need support,
we're going to give you support as a society. And again,
that support is not dictated by your skin color, race, creed, color, agenda,
(09:53):
or whatever the case may be. This country has been
through a lot of pain, you know, the civil rights movement.
We've come a long way, and so to reopen these
wounds just divides our community instead of uniting our community.
And sometimes what we forget, which is what our media, sorry,
and politicians, they spent a lot of time dividing us
instead of uniting us. Because one thing, we all are
(10:14):
in this room right now, we're all Americans. But if
we look at slavery, Okay, slavery ended eighteen sixty five,
the Civil rights movement came in a hundred years later.
Essentially out of the Civil rights movement, there was housing reform.
There were all sorts of laws that were passed to
protect people against the ability to buy a home. So
(10:35):
basically large part of these problems were solved over forty
years ago, fifty years ago. So why are we coming
back to this. So if you think about reparations, reparations, conceptually,
it's for those that were victimized by slavery. So if
there was going to be a time to make the
reparations for the harm of slavery, I would argue that
(10:57):
that should have been done, you know, in the late
nineteenth century, now in the twenty one century. The reason
why I'm speaking up is clearly this is wrong. Some
poor family, wherever they may be, they need help, but
we're not going to give them help because their skin color.
It just struck me so morally wrong. And there's so
many things that are done in the clandestine way. So
(11:19):
you're gonna have this Latino family who needs help, and
they're gonna say that this black family got more help,
and then they're gonna turn around, and then they're going
to find a lawyer, and then the whole thing is
going to turn into a complete cluster where it could
have been avoided. And that's the tragedy. I think everybody's
life has a certain degree of burden. I think if
(11:40):
you had Bill Gates here, he would have some burden.
God only knows what it would be. But he's got
a burden. Everyone has a burden. It's how you handle
the burden. So there is the someone told me that
they're not gonna hire me because I'm not Jewish. Do
I sit there and say I'm gonna just roll over
and die, or do I sit there say fine, I'll
just find something else, you know, different times and stuff
(12:01):
like that. There's all sorts of nice jokes about having
red hair and freckles and stuff like that. You know,
you develop a thick skinning and move on. And so
I truly don't feel that there was, at least I
gues me for myself, you know, privilege, absolutely enough. My
life wouldn't have been any different if I was black,
because it's the core of who you are, you know,
underneath it orders, it's what forms you and stuff like that.
(12:24):
So whether I'm a Hispanic Black Asian, underneath all, it's
the character of who I am is who I am,
you know, quirks and all. And by the way, we
all have our quirks. We've seen what I called the ugly,
dark and awful side of American society. We showed up
at the Capitol, the intolerance, hatred, the fealty to white
(12:46):
supremacy as an operating principle for the country, versus this
idea that this nation is multi cultural, multi religious, multi orientation,
and that is undergraded by notions of justice and equity.
Because you're a white male, we're not going to give
your family help. We're going to ignore the Hispanic family
were ignore the Asian family, but we're gonna get help
(13:06):
to this black family. But all four of them need help,
you know. I went to school in the South, the
elementary school, I went to, the middle school I went
to in the high school I went to. I was
one of the first African American students to go to
all three of those schools. And I remember being indoctrinated
with the lost Cause narrative, the idea that the South
waged the Civil War for the principle of states rights
(13:29):
and that it was a war against the Northern aggression,
not that it was a war to defense slavery. So
in many respects, the narratives that many have learned have
contributed to, if you will, the racial injustice we see
in public policy even to this very day. And that's
part of this conversation. So I don't believe in white privilege,
(13:53):
Asian privilege, Hispanning privilege, but there is parental privilege. A
child that is raised by a mom and a dad
is just gonna have a statistically better outcome. While at
the same time, I'm always a believer in the vision
for the future. What's the vision for the future. What
can the nation become if these challenges are a dressed.
We have to remain vocal. We have to remain energized.
(14:15):
We have to make sure that our demands and our
needs remain at the forefront. We all have to remain
woke and in a continuous visible demand for the things
we want. This fight has more twist and turns than
a safety pin. Who's ahead and the count are these
(14:37):
punches landing? Who will emerge victorious? To find out? We
asked the man in the street, any form of reparation,
in my opinion, definitely z owed to the black community
and people of color in general. It's gonna take a
while for people to maybe come around and figure out
what's the right in appropriate way to approach it. Whether
(15:01):
it's literally money, whether it's education, whether it's actual housing, food,
you name it. We need to figure out a way
to allocate those resources to the people who need it
the most. For it's because they brought a white people
here as slaves. They have to build of America. Without them,
America would himself being the way it is to be.
(15:24):
Any time I see the famous about those slaves they
brought here, it's break my hat. They think blacks are
loos human beings I think black Americans to African Americans,
they in lots in America. Personally, I am in favor
of preparations and the form of investment into communities of
(15:48):
people who are you descended to been directly impacted by
things like jim pro or slavery before. I think that
it would be more impactful in the long term to
invest in the commun enertees, into the education, in the infrastructure,
and those communities. Of course, I'm for it. Why shouldn't
we pay back after we hurt somebody, doesn't matter how
(16:11):
many years ago it is. I support reparations because as
a society, whether it's federal or state or local government
or other critical institutions educational, healthcare, and more, we have
created a situation where there are massive, massive racial and
equities and health and safety and wealth and education and more. Therefore,
(16:32):
we have responsibility to repair that damage. That's what reparations
is all about. I've got a feeling in these final
rounds of this fight are going to be the toughest,
no kidding. Our next spider in the case for reparations
(17:00):
is none other than a battler, a rumbler, and a
true heavyweight. He's a rapper, a tireless activist, and a
proud driver of a nineteen nine Chevy and Paula all
the way from Atlanta, g A. It's killer my I
(17:24):
think that the federal government absolutely owes us something or
why because in sixteen nineteen you brought us here. So
I believe based on that that there is a formula
in which the federal government does owe us something, and
that includes money private companies that benefited off stocks and buns.
Because after the Civil War, even though the people who
(17:46):
were promised something by Fielding or the fifteen by General Sherman,
even though they didn't get ship, many landowners were under
ridden for the property they lost. And the property was
human beings who look like me. And because so when
you look at reparations, I think everything that has touched
us in a way that profited from us and we
(18:06):
did not owes us. So that's the mixture of federal government.
And that would be cash payment in my opinion, that
would be land grants and land lottery. That would be
an exemption from taxation. That would be a forgiveness of
loans and debts that are federally subsidized. That would be
given us every opportunity to gain equal footing, to take
advantage of the opportunity of being Americans. It's the same
(18:27):
thing that was done for the colonies after they broke
from Britain. It's the same thing that was done for
the immigrant population that was asked to come here and
settle the Midwest and West. So my question becomes why
everybody except us and everybody should pay who profited from it.
According to the Angelo Project that studies America's original center
slavery from six nine forward, right we are old, over
(18:50):
fifteen trillion dollars would probably come out. According to Bob Johnson,
and even my you know, my former drug dealer mathematics
would come out between three and thou thousand dollars. Let
me tell black folks on sidey South, Dad, ain't no money.
I want people to understand that besides the cash payment
which you you should get in your deserve not only
(19:12):
a reparations to cash payout. They need to be long
term and systemic, purposeful systems and organizations set up that
puts for the first time black people who were brought
here His beast and shadow on a pathway to having
their full rights in prible to just recognized and enjoy
now people outside the Afriman community that say things like
(19:34):
I wasn't a slave onner, you benefit from what your
grandparents got. I have benefited because my grandfather got the
g I bill when black soldiers who were turned from
World War two could not get the g I p
I've benefited because at the time there were factors in
Mississippi they paid white workers. Even though they were underpaying
the white workers, they paid them more than the black
So what I need poor and working class white people
(19:56):
understand that if they have to treat us fairy. So
when Mitchell, I don't say that was a hundred fifty
years ago, mit you seventy five. That was two minches ago.
So you could die, come back live again. And that's
how cooch slavery is. Mitch. You know, double me your ass.
So my great grandparents share crop about acres. Acres benefited,
(20:17):
my grandmother benefited me. But because of that, my grandmother
was able to have any education. Because of that, she
was able moved to Atlanta by her first piece of land,
which we see her own. Why don't you want to
give black folks that chance, give us our fucking land
which we were promised by Sherman's or the Field fifteen
when he left black people to die drowned in the creek.
We were promised that give us what the funk we
(20:37):
were promised, and watch how much better this entire country happen.
So I just challenged people to understand that this is
not about taking from you because you ain't the government,
you don't have enough money to pay us. This is
not about taking from you because you're not the private
corporations that profited from us being a stock in a bun.
What this is is a reckoning of the evil and
(20:58):
the original sin America did because they enslaved people who
look like our black ass right, and now it's just
time to get that core straight. And I guarantee you,
the better the economy is in the African American community,
the better the overall economy. So fight forward. Won't reparations.
We deserve it. One day they're gonna come. We just
(21:19):
might be older, dead, but I think we can, we must,
we will. I have a lot of confidence in black people.
I have a lot of confidence in this country because
we built it for the same reason your granddad who
worked at the Ford Company. Like Forward Trucks because he
knows his hands when in the building the Ford truck,
You're not gonna shave me for like in America, because
(21:39):
I helped build it and I'm not going nowhel And
I think black people need to take the mentality. If
we do, you know, we'll see more brown towns pop up.
And if we fifty cent of the South, there's no
reason we shouldn't own fifty five percent of the South.
So black people with the cornerstone, with the foundation, let's
see ourselves that way, let's move act and operate that way.
And I think we'll see systemic change within our life family. Wow,
(22:06):
that was powerful Erica. It sure was Whitney. They don't
call him killer for nothing. He's up against a man
who calls himself a race realist and a separatist. He's
a South far from the great state of Virginia. In
for the case against reparations, give it up for Jared Taylor. Well,
(22:30):
I certainly do not propose that reparations be paid for slavery.
There's no person alive who was a slave, and there's
no person alive who was a slaveholder. If you were
going to make some kind of naturally tailored solution where
by those who worst slaves would be compensated by people
who had held him the slaves. Presumably you would track
(22:53):
down the descendants of slaveholders today and also the descendants
of those slaves and work out something between those parties.
But there is no legal theory whatsoever to seek compensation
for an act that took place between private parties many
years ago, in some cases hundred two hundred three years ago.
(23:15):
And as you know the President that many people calling
for reparations point to, which is to say, the payments
by the federal government to the Asians who in the
camps during the Second World War that was made while
those people were still alive. The payments did not extend
to the children of those people. So you could argue
(23:35):
by that standard that the statute of limitations is finished
in the United States. In fact, you could argue that
American blacks are the richest, most long lived blacks, not
only in the world but in the history of the more,
you could also make the argument that Zor O'Neil hursted
me the black foot. She said, slavery is the price
(23:57):
I paid for civilization. In other words, she was in
effect grateful for the fact that her ancestors brought to
the United States, and she grew up in the United
States rather than in Africa compared to Africa. For example,
life expectancy of American blacks, although it's shorter than that
of American plates, is ten years higher than the average
(24:19):
life expectancy in Africa. And so if you want to
look at it on strictly a cost benefit basis, the
descendants of slaves living in the United States today are,
on a material basis, is vastly better off than if
their ancestors had stayed in Africa. And the idea that
blacks are somehow, hundreds of years later mentally shackled by
(24:42):
the fact that they came as enslaved people makes no
sense at all. The blacks living here today were born here,
their ancestors were born here, and somehow there's some sort
of hereditary mental paralysis that comes in the fact that
her ancestors were enslaved. That makes no sense at all.
It is completely unfair for them to expect the United
(25:04):
States government to make payments to them, and that's the
form that almost all proposals for compensation or reparations take.
The federal government never owned a single slave slavery was
a private practice. If private individuals the United States think
that black people will own some sort of compensation, then
(25:24):
by all means reach into their own pockets and make
those payments. But somehow to punish all tax payers or
something for which they had absolutely no responsibility to me
is completely wrong. I think that if you turned around
and you said, Okay, white people, your taxes are going
to go up because we're going to tax you more
(25:45):
because we're going to give money to blacks, do you
think that would improve lace relations from the United States.
On the one hand, you will never get an answer
from black people saying yes, okay, finally we've been made whole.
The black reaction will invariably be the isn't unlough? And
what do you think the white reaction is going to be?
Poor whites in particular, and you're actually gonna be paid
(26:08):
to the children of Block and Michelle Obama because they're
descended from slaves. How do you think white people or
other people, Hispanics, Asians, anybody else who feel absolutely no
personal involved in slavery, no sense of responsibility for it,
is that going to help raise relations in the United States?
Absolutely not. It will only make them worse. You can
(26:30):
go back to believe It's nineteen sixty five. Lyndon Johnson
gave the commencement address at Howard University and he says, look,
what we need is equality of results. We can't just
have the quality of opportunity. And since then there have
been compensatory programs in the form of racial conferences for blacks.
(26:50):
Is it somehow the legacy of slavery that keeps blacks proof? No,
I don't think you can make that argument. Georgia the
state out living. In the first seven years George existed,
slavery didn't exist. But after origins, South South Carolinians and
other Southern colonies like making money. They were like ship
we get in this slavery game, get us some Niggers.
Much of this was economic, so everybody wasn't racist, but
(27:13):
economically it made sense to be. There is probably some impact.
I think it would be difficult to argue that the
effect has been zero. However, if you argue that the
problem is some sort of structural light supremacy in the
United States, it's difficult to argue why some of these
other non white groups are doing so much better than lives.
(27:34):
If the United States are somehow structurally set up to
advantage plates over people who are non white. It's certainly
not working very well. At some point, the descendant of
someone that was brought here in sixteen nineteen deserves to
steer this raggedy as chill through these trouble waters. That
(27:55):
is an element of reparation that is long deserved. If
you have to go back and find people who got
the short end of the stick, you're welcome to do so.
There's an infinite number of things, but this kind of
thing is not going to sit well on people who
have absolutely no part in that, and feel no obligation
(28:15):
to make those people hold. Is it right that we
got so many handicapps playing in US? Know it won right?
Tiger wool has had to play as some substandard golfing
places it one right. The two girls from Confident, we
got dumb ass questions when they will learn to play tenants?
But boy, once they called on, look at how we forbat.
What are the penalties for being black the United States?
It's impossible to calculate them. And yes, there are some
(28:38):
cases in which a black person a black sounding resume
does not get called back as often, But there are many,
many cases that we know about in which a black
person who is applying for job or which who was
certainly applying to university gets preference over a white or
particularly over an Asian. So black people, especially black people
with distendants of thold that are brought four would explained,
(29:01):
we need to see ourselves as the start of what's next,
and need the end of what has happened. Boom, did
you see that Killer Mike wore him out? This was
a heavyweight in action. He was clear and concise, He
(29:21):
brought the energy from the ancestors, and he was throwing hammers. Baby,
he sure was, Erica. He was throwing hammers. And Jared
Taylor's race realism was just a covert way of saying
this country is for whites only. It certainly couldn't stand
up to Killer Mike's attack, and Killer Mike showed him
it's way too late for all that. Now. I don't
know about you, Whitney, but that was a clear knockout
(29:43):
for the case four reparations. Boom, I agree that was
amazing Killer Mike threw down. But but wait a minute, Erica,
we have a ruling from the judges. The judges are
declaring it a tie, a tie. It seems like the
fixes in what are you talking about? You heard it, Whitney,
you heard you even said so Killer Mike was the
(30:06):
clear winner, Yes, but they're calling it a tie. The
case against reparations is the reigning champion and the contender
doesn't take a belt and a tied score. You need
to win by decision or buy a knockout or knockout.
Why not? Are you kidding? I guess we're just not
there yet. Next time on reparations, the big payback. When
(30:30):
I was running for president, I did talk about reparations
because if you look at American politics and there's something
that you don't understand, it does not seem to make sense.
The answers race. It's not being spoken about, but it's
the colonel behind the apparent inconsistency, the apparent craziness. And
so I look at the need for everyone in America,
(30:53):
particularly white people. I mean, let's face it, this was
a system of racism and discrimination that is conceived of
and executed by white people that is continued for centuries,
and for us to move on, it's absolutely essential so
that we could have honest conversations about how to proceed
in a just fashion. It's important to retell the story
(31:15):
for everyone, specifically for white people who have benefited from
this system and executed it. And it's not enough just
to retell the story. Actions have to be taken. Let's
talk about what it will take to repair the damage,
to address the injustice. This podcast is produced by Eric Alexander,
(31:36):
Bennar Noon and Whitney Dow. The executive producers are Charlemagne
the God and Dolly s. Bishop. The Supervising Producer is
Nicole Childers and the lead producer is Devin Madock Robins.
The producer writer is Serice Castle and the Associate producer
is Kevin Fan with additional research support provided by Nile Blast.
This episode was written by Tony Purrier. Original music by
(32:00):
d J D t P Reparations. The Big Payback is
a production of color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and
The Black Effect Podcast Network in association with best Case Studios.
For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
(32:21):
heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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