Darren McGuire

Kat and Dom are joined by stunt coordinator and fight choreographer extraordinaire Darren McGuire. He tells them about growing up with martial arts as a family business, facing down bears on off-the-grid camping trips, and teaching Kat and Dom all their amazing fight skills. Plus, the trio remembers their dear friend Dean Copkov.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
We would like to dedicate today's episode to our friends,
mentor and coach Dean Copkov. We miss you, Bud all
the love in the world. He was such an important
part of the show, but also an important part of
our lives and a dear friend who touched so many
people over the course of his life and career. Dean,

(00:21):
we love you and you're always with us. Thank you
for everything and for the person that you will always
be in our hearts. Hello, Tom, how are you today?

(01:07):
I'm good? Thank you? How are you? I'm good? I
am calling you from the eight and seventies or podcasting. Yeah,
you are in London. I take it. I am in London.
Oh my goodness. Though, here is my favorite fucking person, Darren.
Can you hear us? My god, I can hear you guys?

(01:28):
Yet we have the most special guest today on the podcast,
the one and only Darren McGuire. How are you guys?
Go to see you man? You too, buddy? How are
you doing too? I'm great? What about are you in
the world? What's what's your time zone? Well, I'm in Toronto, okay,
and I am just lately I've been working with my

(01:50):
brother Chris on Star Trek Discovery. Amazing, amazing, Yeah, it
really has been amazing. They have this, They have the
A R Wall. I don't know if you've ever heard
of this. It is a piece of technology that was
originally used on the Mandalorian and if you can imagine,
I don't know the exact proportions, but like half a

(02:11):
studio of screens, you know, in a curve in an
arc so that and then it's on the ceiling too,
and then it's on the floor too if they want it.
So you are completely completely surrounded by filmable background, so
being you know, if you're on an alien planet, it's

(02:31):
super handy, right because now for you guys, for you know,
for the performers, if you're supposed to be a creature
or something to that effect, you can see them and
have your eyeline. They can even light with it. It's amazing.
So I've been doing a bunch of that lately. It's
been amazing. That's incredible. Yeah, Well, Darren, we are so
so so thrilled to have you on the podcast today.

(02:53):
You've been someone that we have talked about extensively in
our rewatches and it's just such an honor and a
privilege to have you here today, and we miss you.
It's been amazing to see you guys too. I've I've
missed you. I think about you all the time. I
tell stories about stuff that we did together all the time.
It's amazing, how you know, I've been at this for

(03:14):
a while. I've done a bunch of stuff now, I've
been working with Giamo del Toro lately. And everything that
you learn along the way helps you along the way.
And I just learned so much about staging because you
guys were so talented and so willing to work hard

(03:35):
at whatever we were doing. Um, it opened up a
lot of possibilities for me creatively in terms of, um,
how we shot it. I know we're going to get
into all of this, but it was it was really
you the cast that made it possible, um and kind
of opened up my horizons creatively. And I look back

(03:59):
at it and out and I realized how lucky I
really was, and not that I haven't worked with super
talented people still since then. I have. It's been amazing,
But UM, you guys were one in a million. You know,
you all worked so hard at everything we did, and
for me as an instructor, like as a teacher. When

(04:21):
you have somebody like that that you're working with every
day at work is awesome, you know everything, And I think, look, dude,
that's really sweet of you to say. But for us,
I don't think I'm speaking out of turn with cat
here either. You know, we are hard workers, like that's
something we love to do. We we enjoy what we
do as you do. But the difference of having an

(04:43):
instructor who gels who I like, having someone that you're
excited to come and work with every day. We give
all of the credit to you because we we were
trained by you. We did all the work with you
and with your team, UM, and you inspired us to
to want to work the way that has now sort
of become our uh mantra like this is how this

(05:04):
is how you work. UM. So we have you to
thank for that, really, and I'll just echo that truly
and just say, you know it's it's Don and I've
both gone on to jobs where we've had to do
stunts and fighting and action sequences and things like this,
and it's having the foundation and having someone like you
and and folks like your team that taught us everything

(05:26):
we know and inspired us and taught us not only
the mechanics of what we're doing and how to apply
it to film, but also how to be safe and
how to keep ourselves and people around us safe and
you know, moving into other sets. It's really been the
most amazing resource to have. And and I just I
think about you every day and I'm inspired by you

(05:46):
every single day. So it's just it's it's the biggest gift.
You opened our horizons in so many ways. Thank you, Cat,
that's amazing of you to say so. And got it'd
be great to get the band back together, right like,
Oh man, I I still I still text every now
and then with Matt Hastings, and I still in touch

(06:08):
with Chris Hatcher. On occasion, I did sex Life form
us earlier in the year. And yeah, I just think
about what we had. I think about, um, you know
there are training room, Um just that space, man, every
lunch time we were there, so they started telling us
not to We were on the mini tramps and gise

(06:30):
different toys and whatever. It was. It was awesome. Oh yeah,
it was awesome. And again, like when I would you know,
and as a stunt coordinator, I'm sometimes I'm able to
engage myself completely with the fight action or the training
action that we're doing. And sometimes I have to go
back and forth in meetings and prep and dealing with
whatever all the other aspects of the job. And so

(06:52):
when I would come walking into the room and I'd
see one or more of you in there, and you know,
when you'd normally be with Dean, and I would want
were more. It was such a good feeling. Man. It
was just that it was such a good feeling. And
I feel like, you know, guys, we meet the most
of it, man, we did, I would agree, before we

(07:13):
dive into everything. Probably, why didn't you tell us a little?
I mean, we know most of this, but ondn't you
tell the audience a little about you? How you got
into this, how you got attached to the show? Like,
give us a little a little Darren lowdown? Alright, alright, Um, Well,
I grew up in northern Ontario, in Sudbury, in a
mining town about I guess it's about four and a

(07:35):
half hours north of Toronto. And my father, uh, my
grandfather was a boxer, and so my father learned about
boxing as a really young kid, and then later in
the early sixties, his cousin, my dad's cousin started taking
a style of karate called shoto kan uh, and he

(07:56):
showed my dad a few moves, being you know, my
maguire was Irish, right, so the cousins like to fight
a little bit, you know, And so my my dad's
my dad's cousin had some new moves, you know, and
my dad was impressed, and so that's what started his interest,
and so he got involved in it in the early
sixties and the early seventies are the late sixties and

(08:19):
the early seventies is really when he got zoned in.
And I was born around that time, and my dad
started teaching us. I mean, you know, we had we
had our karate gs or karate uniforms when we were
still just a little baby. But you know, I was
still seeing my g you know, I was just a
little kid, and yeah, and he taught us. He taught

(08:42):
us the basics, very much like what I taught you
guys when I first when we first started working together,
the basic punches, the basic blocks of building the arsenal
then and that just continued through our lives, myself and
my brothers, my four brothers. It was just a family
treaty and you know. It definitely made the sibling rivalries

(09:03):
more fun. Um, I'm sure you know. And my dad
had oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. And my dad had rules.
You know, we weren't allowed to fight with weapons inside
the house. You know, stuff would get broken. Yeah, whether
it was vosses or bones, one of them. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
It was a hole holes in the ceiling from the

(09:23):
niw Chuck who you know are like, oh my gosh,
I remember so many incidents. One time I was chasing
my brother Chris, who you worked with, you know, Um,
and I had the sword and all he had was
the fire poker, and so we were fighting and he
was and I was chasing him, poking him in the
butt with it, and the hook on the fire poker

(09:45):
hooked onto the corner of the wall and pulled the
whole corner of the wall out. And we had just
finished building this house so quickly before my dad got home.
We had the drywall out and we're like plastering it
and standing it and using this air dryer to dry
it off. You know. Oh yeah, yeah, it was it
was like that. It was you know, that that we

(10:05):
were a little crazy, you know, and then that just yeah,
and then I competition started to be more of an
aspect of all of our lives. And we competed heavily
in martial arts, um you know, right into my mid twenties,
and it went from regional to sort of provincial to
international kind of thing. And I knew, I mean, since

(10:29):
I was fifteen years old, I knew that I wanted
to work in film. I knew that I wanted to
somehow bring my martial arts obsession into into film. And
so my last sort of big international competition was a
World Championship that was in Lester in England, and we

(10:49):
were training in Toronto, and I got a contacted from
somebody that was doing sort of low budget chop sake films,
and uh I I played hookey from training with the
with the World Championship team, I played hockey for four
days to shoot a couple of fight scenes with Billy
Blanks in a movie. And that's really how it started.

(11:12):
And then it was just stunts, you know, you know,
and the stunts got more intense. It was still I
was still a fight specialist and acrobatic specialist, but you know,
I got lit on fire and thrown downstairs and hit
by cars and stuff along the way, and um, in
the stunts right not that wasn't That's not how you
make your way in Hollywood. For anyone listening, you don't

(11:33):
have to go through any of that. I don't think
it is just stunts, totally stunts. And it was a
gradual thing, you know. I mean, initially the jobs that
I got were completely fight based, and then as I
got my education with really excellent stunt coordinators Marco Bianco,

(11:55):
John stead Rick forsythe and these these people all contributed
to teaching me about the craft of stunts and not
just how to fall down a flight of stairs properly
or how to do a high fall into boxes properly.
To um, I was going to bring it up at
some point, it's got to come up. Oh yeah, baby,

(12:16):
we've spoken about We've spoken about it on the podcast already.
Funk it. We're gonna do it now. We've spoken about
it on the podcast already. And how furious I was
that that day They were just like, nah, there's no
way you're not going to do it, And I was like,
We've done it. We did it off a cherry picker.
It's so much harder and and the thing is the
story that I like to tell about that, And I

(12:37):
know we'll get back into it. But so I remember
looking at you and you're looking me in the eyes
and you're saying, I want to do that gag, and
I'm thinking, okay, you had already proved your athleticism to
me up to this point, and I knew you had
nerve um, and so I thought, okay, well I'm gonna

(12:59):
present with what what I would present with another stunt performer,
which was the test where we bring up the mini
tramp and we had the pad and I laid a
piece of paper towel on the matt and and said,
you know, the deal was that you had to dive
off the mini tramp comes straight down head first into
the mat, and before you roll to your back, you

(13:20):
had to snatch the paper towel off the surface of
the mat to flip onto your back to do what
we call the face off. And so I thought, this
will teach him, this will, this will, this will give
him a little fear of therapy. And he does it
correctly the first time he tries it, and I'm like,
of course he does what what? And remember dumb, I

(13:45):
was like, no, dude, do it again, you know, And
I look over at Dean and Dean's looking at me
because I thought, this is how I'm going to get
out of this, because I knew Disney Safety wasn't gonna
like it one bit, right, so of course not, and
so they then he did it again, and then he
did it again three in a row, and now you're
just showing off. Now you're starting to get in to

(14:06):
the pike, and you were like, you know, So then
I thought, all right, says a Dean. And I talked
about it. Um We're like, he's like, what do you
think about? And I'm like, it was where he is
in space, and I'm trying to think in my head too. Dom.
As soon as I saw you do that, I started thinking, okay,
so then now I have to build a case for

(14:26):
Disney Safety so that they can see why I would
think you would be safe for a stunt performer to
do that, and how I would test the stunt performer, right,
and so obviously the testing process is risky, Dom, as
you recalled, and I was worried about it, but yeah,
you just got it. And so then we went to high,

(14:48):
a little higher, a little higher, a little higher, and
you weren't hesitating, And so I remember the last conversation
with Disney Safety and he said, he said, look, we're
gonna we're gonna talk about it over here. And I said, okay,
and I said, and I made it clear, I said,
I trust it him a hundred percent to do this.
And it really was the last minute, It really was.

(15:10):
And I listen and it's exactly and I have the footage,
so I know that it's that I've done it. And
it's funny. Do you remember for training because we got
it to the height of the bridge and there was
only one patch in the studio that was physically high
enough to bring us to that place, and we had
to bring the whole rig and everything to there. Um. Yes,

(15:31):
it's such an interesting thing. We talked about trust a
lot on this podcast, a lot about trust, mostly in
relation to performing, like you have to trust your other performer,
and it's exactly the same thing with stunts, if not
more so with stunts. And I remember I watched that
video all the time. You know, I'm showing people like
I jumped with It's not a big deal or whatever,
just you know, blow my trumpet and there's not very

(15:55):
many people in the world that I would trust to
hold the back of my trousers while I'm stood over
three levels high of cardboard boxes, looking straight down at
thirty ft and looking at your eyes, looking straight up.
There's not many people I would trust to say you
can do this. And you and Dean were those two
people in my life and always will be you, always
will be that person in my life. And you told

(16:15):
me that I could jump off the Empire State and
survive it. I mean, please don't say that, but if
you told me I could, I think I think I'd
hop off. You know, Thank you, thank you, thank you.
That's just it, as you know, for folks that are
you know, this kind of schedule we were on and
the sort of things that we wanted to be able
to do to play these characters. You made it. Not

(16:35):
only did you make it possible, but you made it safe.
And you you gave us that trust and that confidence
not only in ourselves to the training, but in you
and your team and Dean and everyone else to to
be able to do things that I've not been on
the show since It's let me do as much then
being able to walk into their shows with that confidence
of going yeah, I can you show me what to

(16:56):
do and you make it safe, I can do it.
It's invaluable. Well it was, you know. And I have
to say though, as we keep passing credit back and forth,
it really is like that. Guys, like like we were
able to create that momentum and push the boundaries the
way we did because it was a combination of my

(17:19):
experience as a teacher and I could see different things
in all of you, you know, like like with with you, Dom,
you are a natural. Uh, you're a natural athlete. Not
just the physical ability, jumping ability, strength to wait, there's
all those sort of things that go in the toolbox.

(17:40):
But when I say a natural, I mean that that
your natural instinct is usually the right one movement wise
or momentum wise. It's just it's just how you put
in movement wise. There We've been out drinking together and
he's like, I'm going to make sure that I say,
his instincts are good when it comes to movement, but
not necessarily like choices nothing, but it's all part of it, dum.

(18:05):
That confidence comes from from getting the right take on
stuff right. And I remember my first exposure to you, Cat,
I was like watching you and I could see, I
could see a dance background, I could see a discipline
in your movement, and but really what I noticed is
your attention to detail. It's such a thing. And it's

(18:28):
interesting too, because I know that Clary's Clary is an artist,
if I recall correctly, and artists and artists pay very
close attention to detail. And I found that it was
interesting that your approach to the training and you had
a tendency to pick out the details, and so I

(18:50):
could grab onto that and I could get into cahoots
on what to do with your character physically. It was
just such a thing. I just I just, oh, that's
very easy, because she already approaches it in a way
that I imagine that Clary would. Of course, there's all
of the natural aptitude that I find in you, but

(19:11):
it's it was your details and your and your You
worked hard at it, you really did. You were in
there with Dean all the time, YouTube all of you
as much as I possibly. It's that attention to detail
that always inspired me and everything that you did. Whenever

(19:45):
we talk about the fights, it's that character story within
the fight that's it's almost a separate plot line that's
driving everything and the way you've blended different pieces and
attributes of different martial arts to create each supernatural characters
fighting style. It added so much to the show and
so much depth to the stories that we were telling
that people picked up on, and it it created the

(20:07):
world in another another facet that wasn't any of the
sets or the costumes or the dialogue or anything. It
filled out the world in such a rich way. Thank
you so much. It's so interesting how it happened to
I did a pilot with Hubert and it was Ransylvania
was a CBS thing and Hubert was the Wolfman. It
was super cool, and anyway I was. I was hoping

(20:28):
to get onto this other thing afterwards, and it didn't happen,
and I was a little sulky, and so I went
up north camping and I was up there for a
few days. And when the places that I go generally
there's no cell signal, there's no cell phones, there's no
it kind of like I definitely go off the grid,
as you guys remember. And when I came back out,

(20:52):
there was a email waiting for me from Matt Hastings,
who I had never met or heard of, and it
was basically just him saying that he had heard some
good things about me from another producer that I had
worked under, and wondered if I would be willing to
show up for an interview. And he didn't even say
what the show was. There was just the address where
I was supposed to go. Literally was like the next

(21:14):
day when I checked out the address, I realized what
the show was because you guys had done the first
season and and then I realized what it was, and
I quickly watched. I think I got through two or
three episodes of the first season to get a sense
of what it was. And then there I was the
next day, you know, doing my interview, and I already

(21:38):
had some ideas about things that I thought I could
contribute to based on what I had watched in the
first couple episodes and got a bit of a sense
of of all of your movement. Already. I had no
idea how amazing you guys were going to be, But
in my view, I was like, Okay, I don't know
how much they've been taught. They didn't know anything about

(21:58):
what you guys had learned to get you through that
first season, and I thought, Okay, we could take this further,
you know, yeah, and they were so they were so
open to suggestions and worked really well with me in
terms of some of the stuff that I thought you
guys needed in order to make it safer and also
to open up the possibilities for our fights. Like, um,

(22:22):
the staff which was originally was just a whip for
Emerald's character, and I had an issue with that. I thought,
now we need to make a staff out of that,
and again Matt Hastings agreed, and everybody really worked hard
to produce something that that was going to be practical
and that we could expand you know, all the new
weapons that we got to squeeze in there as the

(22:42):
time when um, yeah, I really had a plan. I
really did, and I hadn't had an imagination like I
was imagining what was possible, though I didn't know that
you would all work so hard. So I ended up
being able to do stuff that was beyond on my
wildest dreams creatively for sure, as too man, we got

(23:04):
to I mean, correct me if I'm wrong with There
are like a couple of things that we did that
hadn't been done by the actors on TV before, right, Hu,
guys man, Even just being able to say that as
fucking cool as ship, you know what I mean? Do
you remember some of those things we did? Man, you're
doing gainers towards each other on wires, ft off the floor, traveling,

(23:31):
each of you landing right in front of each other,
you know, I mean it was like there was some
of those things that like, not just in terms of
wire gigs that we did, but like, dom, do you
remember when we ran your face through the glass on
the bar right? Remember crash, crash vividly? Remember yeah, yeah, body,

(23:53):
And I remember David Makan or Mike McMurray, that was
the DP at the time. He just looked at I
think it was making just looked at me like are
we really going to do this? And you had to
keep your head in the right position that properly and
you wouldn't get hurt, and you did it every time
exactly right. And God like no good teaching, good teaching,

(24:18):
good teaching. You can, like a student can funk up
good teaching, but you're always going to suck up bad teaching,
you know what I mean. So like as some of
the teaching is good, then the opportunity for it to
be good is is there in present. I wish someone
had said that to me when I was a kid, right,
I don't know. I always think about too, because so
many things happened on a set and things changed last minute.

(24:39):
And one of the fight scenes that has become one
of my favorites was you and I on the roof
Doom when you were the owl, right before you dropped
me off and I land on the car. We had
a two or three minute fight scene planned out there,
and the way the shooting day went, we just didn't
have time for it. So the fact that we were
able to rearrange that fight, make it work and shoot
it between your team, Darren and you know, Drew and

(25:03):
Glenn on handheld cameras and me and dum and we
just did the whole damn thing, basically rewrote the whole fight.
It was nuts. There are so many instances. Yeah, and
you could. And that's what can be done with people
who can pay attention to the details. See the other
thing too. It's like it was our training right. I
remember seeing your strengths when we first did and I

(25:25):
showed up with my karate pants on. Remember in the
training room, we're doing the punches, we were doing the
kicks and building our arsenal. And as time went, like
I remember both of you wanting to get the spinheel kick.
You wanted it, and it's something that is difficult, and
it requires a dancers control over any like centrifical forces,

(25:51):
spinning footwork, a proper foot position when you make contact
with the target. It's not easy, but if you can
get it, then it's a dent for all the martial
artists watching, we all know what it takes to learn
that and that it can't be faked. And and I
remember having when in our first days training together, having

(26:14):
the arsenal that I had to work with then, And
then as time went, our training goals are achieved. Now
the arsenal gets bigger and the bag of weapons gets
bigger and bigger, so that now whether I'm choreographing or Hubert,
it was getting easier and easier now, right, like I
could take a like have a creative concept in my head,

(26:36):
like and I was even able to do some of
this early, like don do you remember and the fight
on the ship, remember, and you were under the crane
and we didn't even know each other that well yet.
And when I went for the tech survey to look
at the location and plan out where we were going
to shoot everything. And I saw that space underneath the

(26:58):
crane where the entire sword fight would have to be
done in a deep crouch, and it was something that
I just thought would be amazing visually. And I just
thought that as a filmmaker, the way the light might
reflect off the ceiling and the dramatic positions that it
would put you in. Of course, you could crack your

(27:19):
head on all the steel stuff sticking down along the top. Two. Yeah, yeah,
that was the risk for sure. Remember, dude, that was
the risk. But your character took out three people, three
soldiers in that fight, and it's one and I was
very proud of that. I remember I remember really really seeing, oh,

(27:40):
I'm in a venue now where I can I can
take those things that are in my head and and
with everybody's outing it into something different and it looked different.
This is what I remember from that scene. We were
filming episode one, and when it was the middle of
the day, it was super hot, and we're all in
those horrible jackets, were on this giant copper container and
I'm starting my chat having a cigaret out of quit

(28:00):
smoking now. By the way, well mostly, um, congratulations, mostly,
But I'm starting my chair and I'm having and I
look over and I see Darren plotting this fight scene
out in his head under this thing. And again, we
didn't know each other that well yet, but I've got
you like crouch, strength, all this stuff, and I just

(28:22):
I was watching you and AWE, just like, oh, yeah,
we're going to get on. I I love this guy.
This is awesome because this excitement, this this passion you
really feel almost like childlike jubilism that comes from doing
what you do, and that's how we feel about what
we do. So to have that like immediately it's like
giving me butterflies just talking about it, Like to have

(28:44):
that connection there, it's just like, all man, this is
this is gonna be good stuff. I'm excited about this.
It really felt like that. Yeah, I'm also having someone
who looks at each of us and goes, I'm going
to invest the time and the energy it takes in
each of you to train you and to to teach
you and to bring you into this because it's it's

(29:05):
so much I imagine for you, so much easier to
just let the professional sunt people do the job. As
opposed to taking the time to actually train actors who
you know, don knew more than I did at the time.
But I didn't know how to throw a punch, or
hold a sword or do hardly anything to be able
to do your own fighting in the future. And it's
it's I mean, here we are passing credit back and

(29:25):
forth again, but it goes without saying yeah, I mean.
And I pick a big key in that was that
you guys learn how to really do it as a
martial artist. When I was growing up, I was very
lucky genetically. I had a crazy vertical I don't know
about growing up. Let's talk about that real quick before
we move on. I went down talking about his crazy vertical.

(29:46):
What he's talking about is being able to get his
leg like up to a certain length right like most
normal human beings can reach about forty five between forty
five and ninety degrees um, and then the ballet dancwers
can get it all the way to the side of
the head. And I remember having my parents on set
and I was like, damn, showing the thing, man, just
go and show him the thing. And just so I
can only do it with my arm because I'm I

(30:06):
can't do this, but just slowly but extends all the
way up to the side of his body, and we're like, wow,
I mean that's crazy. So don't say in your younger
days ever again, because you and I both know that
this is something that you've got in the bag, so
you know that, well it's too Yeah, I mean I
definitely I worked really hard at it, and it didn't

(30:27):
come easy, guys, like a you know, I trained obsessively,
you know, like like like I wore ankle weights for example.
I went through a whole period of ankle weights for
both three and three and a half years and started
with like just like two and a half pounds on
each ankle and eventually sixteen pounds you know, and sleep
in them in and go to weddings with them and

(30:48):
embarrass my friends, and you know, it was it was.
It was one of those things where I was just
very lucky athletically to have the genetic benefits that I had,
and and having been doing it since I was a baby. Literally, um,
it just I had a lot of things going for

(31:09):
me and and I will say that the dedication was
definitely born of love. But like like most people, there's
usually you know people that work very, very hard at something.
There's usually a story behind that. There's usually a reason.
And I'm the same and I think that. Man, it

(31:30):
was just a lot of things lined up just perfectly
for me to meet you guys at the time that
I did, and to meet the type of people that
would appreciate the kind of work that goes into being
able to put my legs straight up like that and
do the things that I did. Um, So I when
I saw how committed you were, Yeah, I mean, I'm
glad that we didn't take a shortcut, that we taught

(31:52):
you the real technique and and that you embraced it
the way you did, because that's a big part of
what made it so believable, because it was believable and
look what you ended up doing, Like remember the Bob.
Remember that? And you guys would work your different techniques
on there and I and I could see you getting
more and more Persent's just going to talk about that, man,

(32:13):
Like I still have a Bob, I still have this.
You do still have a Bob. I have a I
have a little punching bag outside. But it's in England,
so it's raining all the time. It never gets you,
but it's out there. But Bob and weave. It's so
funny the little bits that I learned from Dean. Like
my friends or my girlfriend are like, let's do a
little like boxing workout class. I'm like, great, I know
exactly what to do because I learned sort of the

(32:34):
catching section from Dean. And I still go still to
this day when I go overhead so like the hooks
or whatever, I go, Yeah, you remember, Dean used to
make that noise every time you would go ahead. You
would make that noise in his mouth, and it's just
ingrained in me, like every time I do it, and
people are like, why are you making that noise? And
I'm like, I don't know, but that's what I do.

(32:55):
That's the noise that goes with that motion. It's just
how it goes. Yeah, fantastic and and and Dean. Dean
was great with you guys that way and built it
with you individually too. You guys had your things. Yeah,
it really was the biggest gift, and it's something that
you know. I I still box to this day. I
travel with a set of small mmm a gloves just

(33:17):
so I can keep it up wherever I can find
a bag and even the next job I did right
after Shadow Hunters was Arrow. My first scene my first
day on set was a three minute fight scene, and
I was so proud to be able to take what
I had learned from you guys and walk into that
stunt rehearsal and go, I at least know I can
carry myself with the technique that I have. That's all.

(33:40):
That's all you and Dean, Yeah, thank you so much.
I mean, it was you two. Obviously, you guys were
in the hot seat the most frequently. Um. But I
remember training Alberto and Dean identified it. He was like,
this guy's a boxer. He is a natural boxer. It
was just like we could believe how fast he could

(34:00):
learn it, you know, and and have that low game.
He had that look, and and and obviously Harry off
the hook. Harry is so talented. He blew my mind everything.
Harry It's crazy. Oh my god, Oh my god. And Matt.
I remember Matt's character. It was really interesting how perfect

(34:22):
he was for that. When I first met him, I thought,
his subtlety is perfect. Um. And I remember working out
fight sequences, and my favorite fight sequences were the ones
that you guys would do in a training sequence, right,
like that. Some of the stuff you and Matt did
was awesome. Some of my favorite fights. I just found

(34:42):
it remarkably easy to adapt the fight style for the characters.
Also because I think it was properly cast. I didn't
feel like any of you were fighting natural instincts in
order to perform that your character physically. It seemed that
the casting was pretty appropriate, you know, like in terms

(35:03):
of what I then had to translate the movement, there
was no problem. Let's talk about favorite fights. We should

(35:29):
talk about favorite fights. I I'm on board with you
about favorite fights being the training ones. I think mine
is probably the like opening of second half of season
two with the training with Matt and I with the
jewel access. That thing is the first time I used
those and that was so fun. However, you remember the

(35:49):
last fight we did in the training room with Alberto
with fucking broken collar bone and like freshly torn up
first So I remember about third filming that because I'm
on this killers, just trying to get me through the day.
But it's like it's the same thing that we were
talking about, right, like, you want to work hard for
these people that we care about. This Aaron was going

(36:10):
to do the do you remember who's going to do
the sweeping he'll kick that we were just talking about
over Alberto's face, and you were like, let Aaron do this,
woe man, You've gotta balance through arm And I was like,
get to funk, Bud. Do you think I'm gonna throw
I'm going to give away my last sweeping he'll kick
that I'm never going to do on this show. You
out of your mind. Wait, I'm doing it. It's gonna
cause me pain, I don't care. But it was that

(36:32):
like every time we got out, I was like, we
don't need to do that again, right because I am
in a severe amount of pain. We got it, okay, good? Correct.
Those training room fights were so special, like between the
you know, the one that you and I did with
the double wire stunt there and that you were talking
about earlier. Even the fight I had with Jackie when
she came in and it was her first episode. She
had that brand new sword and we had this this

(36:54):
five page long scene with a fight that Donny came
in at the end, and it's all of these things
that just over and over and over again. We got
to use the same space but make it so different
every time. Oh yeah, yeah. And that was again where
Matt Hastings and I were selling cahoots. You know, I
think it was like fairly early on that I I
understood what Matt wanted and how he visualized it, and

(37:17):
so then I started to craft the fights. And again
when I say I started to craft the fights, remember
there was Hubert Border who is brilliant, George Shortov brilliant,
My brother Chris the pizza fight, that was him, you know,
Chris Mark, another huge person that contributed in a big way.
But yeah, I mean I love the training sequences, like

(37:40):
Cat that fight in the second season when you kill Valentine.
I'm proud of that. That was vicious in the cold.
Oh yeah, that was a cold day, it was, And
and Cat, you were in your confidence. I remember looking
at it and being like and Dean saying like, she's
in the zone a but we're like, yeah, hell yeah.

(38:01):
Because with with everybody, with every every actor, when you
perform a fight scene, let's say, and it's still an
examination of the character, but under extreme circumstances, and so
it's very tempting to just put together a fight that
is just all the coolest moves we ever wanted to see,
but that the best fights, the best are where I

(38:24):
as a choreographer can create and provide multiple opportunities for you,
the performers, to express your character, and that means don't
over complicate the choreography at times. And I really felt
like the fight with Valentine when when Clary finally eliminates Valentine,

(38:47):
I just remember feeling that we got it right. We
got it right for you, Cat, and we also got
it right for Alan, and I thought that that was
an achievement. We on this podcast have spoken about that
seen very fondly, very often, like arguably our favorite scene.
I'm dead the whole time, so I don't really do anything,

(39:07):
but arguably our favorite scene of the only thing, the
only stunt thing that happened to me was and we
I think we've spoken about this already, is the rock smash.
Now I'm dead, so like my eyes are closed, I
don't know what's going to happen. And obviously we're not
throwing a real rock around that wouldn't be safe. It's
a sort of rubberized rock that looks real and it
bounced every time, and every time it would land a
little closer to me, and I could hear it landing
a little closer to me, and I remember Drew's cameras

(39:30):
here and I'm dead and I open and eye were
about to roll and I look at Drew and I go,
it's gonna hit me in the fucking nuts this time,
Like I promise you, It's going to hit me in
the nuts this time. Sure enough. And you just see
I saw the footage back. You just see this like
sort of side profiles. I'm dead like that, and you
see my chest going, that's the only reaction I'm allowed
to give. Just like there it is. I love it.

(39:53):
I know stuff like that would happen, like so many
things guys, where I would be thinking, there's always the
potential for does aster, right, And the more we pushed
the boundaries, the more potential for disaster that was. And
I remember too, there were times when the schedule was
mad and here I'd see you guys come in, and
I know what we're going to do that day. We're

(40:14):
gonna have you guys flipping in wires. We're going to
have you in close proximity where the team that's doing
the rigging the pulling has to be exact. You guys
have to be exact. And I remember sometimes seeing you
come in exhausted where I'd be worried. I'd be worried.
I'd be thinking, man, they really have to be paying
attention at this part of it, or they really need
to be you know. And I just remember being in

(40:38):
awe of your professionalism. Bear in mind this a few
years ago. You're just young actors, many of you were,
and I remember thinking, wow, their focus is remarkable, and
I could see they're exhausted. So there was like many
many times when when I would come out of there
and think, wow, a sponge rock and then and the

(41:02):
nuts was actually not as bad as it could have been,
not doing bad as bad it could have been. Yeah,
I mean, I remember, it's so funny we had We
had this conversation, you and I and I remember this
and it and it's followed me through right, So like
you know, you do a stunt and the medic comes
over and goes, are you okay? And I go listen.
I was once told this, and here's what it is.
If you want to do your own stunts, you can't

(41:22):
bitch about every time you bump your knee. You can't
do it because they're gonna stop you doing stunts because
it's gonna slow us down. Then we're gonna be worried
about whether you can do these things, and so on
and so forth. And it came from the day that No,
was it that rooftop fight, No, it wasn't. It was
it was the Angel rooftop fight, you remember that. And
I had to do that what it's called the half flip,
and I land on my back slash and we did

(41:44):
it over and over and over, and I come out
and my hip is like swollen and blue, and you went, hey, man, yeah,
it's a bruise. Is a bruise, that's all good. You
come to me when you've broken a leg, and I'm like,
fair enough, I see tomorrow. We're in a good spot, truly,
is you right? Like we gotta get if you want to.
You can't go in and be like, oh, I broke
a nail. Now I can't do this, And you're like, well,
you said you could. So we've prepped for everything to

(42:06):
be in place. Now we need to get the stump
performer into hair and make up and get them in
and it changes everything. We need to get to a
place where you trust each other. Where I trust that
you have trained me thoroughly, that we've choreographed it thoroughly,
that I trust Cat's going to do her job, and
I trust that I'm going to do my job, and
I really do. By the end, it like it's not
even by the end, by like barely three or four

(42:28):
episodes in when we had you, I'd already started feeling
that I'd already started feeling like I feel prepared for this.
I could see it happening with you guys. I so
could just filling it out and finding that place in
yourselves where it felt like we could do anything, you know,

(42:48):
and the trust that we developed amongst us that we're
doing stuff frequently that we're you know, because you and
Cat were in the heart seat frequently, that trust spread
to the rest, to the cast, so that I remember
that time when we did that gag with Matt where
we pulled on while he's firing the arrow back into

(43:10):
the mat. Remember that, and he didn't know, you know,
like it was that was a stunt. I mean, you know,
it was like it was something that you guys were doing,
was on the level of something that you guys were doing,
but he hadn't been doing a lot of that stuff,
and I remember that, I remember him saying, I trust you,
I trust we can do this, and he did it
so good to remember what a great shot. And when

(43:32):
I first showed Matt Hastings, I was like, hey, dude,
we can actually, I think we can watch Matt himself
flying back at high speed, firing narrowly, you know, And
and uh yeah. I was definitely one of those moments
where trust was everything. And even though I hadn't done
that much with Matt, because you guys had and you

(43:53):
had communicated and he had seen, he was able to
jump right on and do get one of the better shots,
one of those shots. When you watch it in the show,
it looks like we faked it. It looks like c
h I because you're like, there's no way, there's no way.
You did some computers with this. It was good stunts,
good camera work, good acting. It just happened. That's real life.

(44:14):
Go back and watch it if you're listening. Okay, So,
speaking of camera magic and trickery, how many times did
you double people? I can think of one, and I
was immensely jealous that you didn't double me. You doubled
the fucking newbie did, Yeah, you doubled will. Yes, I did.
I doubled will for that fight sequence. And I remember

(44:36):
when we first started choreographing it and and putting together
the concept. I remember thinking, these kicks have to be
just right, and the reason why they have to look
effortless because I really was creating the jeopardy more with
the sword, So it was I just needed the kicks

(44:57):
to be exactly right. And and because there were set
extensions that are expensive visual effects wise, I knew that
for a couple of the hits, the kick would have
to be one inch off the performer's face. And I
didn't trust most people to do that, to be honest,
and not that there aren't other people the right size

(45:18):
that could do it, but I just wanted a specific
look on it. And that was purely me getting my way.
I want the kick. I want the kicks to look
like this, and I wanted to look like that. So
I'm doing it. And so that was a little, definitely
a little, a little. I was there that day as well,
and I was like, God, damn, it looks amazing. Um, okay,

(45:41):
let me ask you a question then, So we're talking
about you getting away in this little world, and you
wanted the shots to be very specific, and you wanted
certain things right. What a lot of people don't know
about how stunts work is, we will train with you
for if we're lucky, a couple of hours, we'll get
the fight scene down. We'll get it done, and then
you film a previous, which a previous is an early

(46:01):
version of the fight that we normally film in the
stunt room. If we're lucky enough to have the location,
then we do it on location and they send it
to directors producers make sure they cover all the aspects
that they wanted because very often in the script it's
just like they fight. There's no specifics of what it is.
It's just like these two people have a fight and
then it's handed over. Um, have you ever considered directing?

(46:24):
Because these previouses were previous? They were incredible, like absolutely incredibly.
Watched them sometimes when we were like, Darren should shoot this,
like this should be done. In fact, I say, very often,
more often than not, we would look at the previous
and go, it needs to be shot exactly this way.

(46:45):
This looks incredible, and not very often they were yeah, yeah,
I thank you man. I'll tell you. In the beginning,
the fight scenes were written a little in a little
bit more detail. And then after the powers that be
started to see how Matt and I were, We're starting
to get really get into cahoots and really starting to collaborate.

(47:06):
You know, Matt would tell me, Okay, Darren, I want
I would like to have a Dolly shot here. You know,
let's not look over there, Let's keep it looking this way.
They should enter over here and it should end over there.
That was pretty much it. I was given the freedom
to create a lot of the moving movement in the staging,

(47:26):
in the action, and that that just gave me a
huge amount of experience in telling this story with the camera.
So yes, in answer to your question, Um, directing has
really become more and more of something that I'm interested in.
And I actually very recently got to direct. I was
working on Cabinet of Curiosities Miles Dale executive producer who

(47:51):
is also Yes, we love Miles Uh. He's an executive
producer on sex Life, Netflix's Sex Life also and I
had needed the first season and anyway, I got the
script and it was it was very interesting sort of
sequence that happened in the script and I gave me
an idea about how it might be shot and it

(48:12):
involved cars, and came up with an idea and then
I pitched it to Miles and it was you know,
it's Miles Dale. He's like always the smartest guy in
the room, you know. And I was very you know,
and I wasn't pitching it with the thought that I
would direct it. I was just pitching this concept I

(48:33):
had with the thought that it might look cool and
it might tell the story. Well yeah, so I anyway,
I pitched, I pitched it to him and I ended
up and I said, it's like a full on director's
guild thing. It's my first credit as a director on
sex Life and yes, thank you, thank you, and and
it definitely is born of what I learned totally. This

(48:56):
is why I bring it up, right, So do you
see bullet Train? And had bulletin so that I watched
it and I was watching it in the fight scenes.
I remember reading it and I was like, this is
ambitious and the fight scenes are like really good and
I was like, these are filmed really well. And then
I saw an interview he was Brad Pitt stunt double
on Fight Club. There you go and then they get
circle back around and he ended up working with So

(49:18):
that's that was his background. I think his name is
David David Leach, David Leach. You know what's interesting about Dave.
I first met him on three hundred Um. I played
one of the snow Yeah. I played one of the
spartans on three hundred and as did my brother Christopher
and and Hubert and Max White. We were all on
that show. Oh my god. Yeah, and we met Dave

(49:41):
and chat to Healthy who was so he originally doubled
Kanu Reeves and was part of the choreography for the Matrix.
Dave Leach double Mr Smith and Brad Pitt and I met.
That's where Chris and I first met them. And it
was actually David Leach who ultimately helped me into the
stunt coordinating position on Nikita with Maggie Q. And then

(50:06):
Dave now has gone on to direct. He directed Atomic Blonde,
Deadpool to uh, you know, he's a brilliant and so yes,
it's it's just interesting that you should say that because
it was Dave and Chad. They liked the concepts that
Chris and I had and they incourage us heavily to

(50:26):
learn editing and to do more shooting, and ultimately that's
what we've done. And yeah, and it ultimately lead to
a different approach to the work where I was looking
at much more as a director. And this was their advice.
And here we are. What a small world, What a
small world? Yet what a small world? Man, That's awesome.

(50:48):
I would I like, I would do just about anything
to be directed, even if it wasn't sun stuff. Let's
do pride and prejudice, just you and I will do
private prejudice. Or do you do a Western Darren? Yes, yeah, yeah,
I'll tell you that never was the goal in my
mind to direct. It was just like learning the craft,

(51:08):
how to tell the story with the camera like hands on,
you know. And that flowed of course from obviously if
you if you're a fight choreographer, you have to think
about how it's going to be shot, and you have
to be cognizant of the story that you're trying to tell,
and and yeah, and it just it just pays forward
and pays for it and pays ford until eventually you're

(51:31):
you're actually starting to think about it as a truly
as a filmmaker, as a director, you know, And it
is a trip, Like, dude, Like I remember when I
showed up for that directing day, you know, and there's
like four cameras and a drone, you know, and I'm
sliding cars down metal veil, you know. But it's just
oh yeah, I don't know. It's like coordinating for Geermo

(51:53):
del Toro, you know, making my little previous guys imagine
and they give that to Geermo del Toro for him
to look at my concept, you know, terrifying. I just
imagine him like sat on his desk with his oscars
around him, just like let me watch this little thing,
like fucking ship. It's the same when we send auditions off,
you know what I mean, Like you send these auditions

(52:14):
off and you know who's going to see them. You
know whose eyes these are going to end up then
in success and you're like, holy ship, man, this is
like one of these people is like why I became
an actor, and my face is going to be on
his or her computer at some point, and that's like
the most horrifying. It's something more awards rather than West Wash.
If you do it, Wash, you're doing it. You're like, okay,
well Meryl Street might watch this, so I need to

(52:36):
focus on, like how do I impress Meryl Street Me, Like,
you don't know, do your job, and then if it works,
it works, and you know what it is. You know
sort of stuff. But yeah, man, just just to be
faced with that level of talent. Like I remember we're
doing night Mery ally and there's a part in the
movie where they where you know, the character gets hit
by a car backwards and then Bradley Cooper's character stand

(52:59):
drives over him. And so it's an old car and
the back of the car is sort of steeply. It's
not very slanted, it's quite steeply sloped. And I was
concerned about how to make it look real with the
cars hitting the guy that he's supposed to fly over
top of the car. And I thought, oh no, if
it's this steep, it should hit him and he should

(53:20):
just go flying backwards. And so I was concerned about this.
I I went to see Garmo in his office and
I explained this to him and he's like, humm. So
he takes a piece of paper and he puts it
down on his desk and he grabs a marker like
a sharpie, and he draws the silhouette of the car
in one stroke, exactly the same I ship you not.

(53:44):
I was like and it and it just came out
of me. I was like, holy sh it, dude. I's like,
that looks exactly like the car and it looks like that,
and he's like, yes, yes, yes, what are you talking
about in terms of thing you know? And I'm like,
you believe I just saw this fucking guy do this.
It was like it was like, one stroke, there's the car,

(54:07):
exactly as it is. And I went back to my
office and I compared it to the actual car, and
you'd swear to god, the guy traced it. Yes. You

(54:34):
have to understand, guys, that I get that from YouTube.
I would put together an action sequence or a fight,
and we'll put it together and we'll rehearse it, we'll
shoot the previous and then I'd be standing beside Matt
at the monitor and you guys would run through it
and you would just add your flavor to it, and

(54:56):
I would become instantly poignantly aware of your talent and
I'd be like, damn, I didn't see that that's cool,
or like a little pause you might take, or like
a little look that you might cast that just added
that I can't quantify. As a choreographer, I shouldn't see it.

(55:17):
But the director in me, I'd be like, that's awesome.
That's like that's talent. That's awesome. That's like they are
wicked actors. You know, they're not just amazing athletes that
can do my bidding and create wicked fights. Amazing actors
who who give it the real texture, who instruct me

(55:40):
on how to tell the stories sometimes with just a look.
I learned so much, guys, I learned so much from you.
We learned so much from you as well. Like I
still will go into a fight scene. Now, do you
remember the three words you would say to me, all
of us, Like right before especially a particularly vicious fight,
Darren would come up and he talked, you know, I
would talk through and the camera's gonna be here, so
you know, make sure when you do this block that

(56:01):
you don't cover too far back. You're gonna cover your face,
and you know, whatever it is. We go through our
things and then he pat me on the shoulder and
he go blood and guts and then send me in.
And I still in my head whenever I do a
fight scene. Now, I said it to myself and your voice.
I go give a blood and guy see and then
I'm away and then that voice needs to happen in
my head otherwise it doesn't work. That's why bud is
on my shoulder. So and I know this every single

(56:24):
every single fight scene, so for you and Dean. This
one particularly is for Dean. But he and I remember
this so poignantly because I had broken my collar bone
right so it was the last one in particular. And
he used to do the same thing. He would pat
me always on this shoulder and you go, give her bud,
always on that shoulder. And I didn't realize it was
it was a thing until I had a broken collar bone.

(56:45):
And he goes give her bud. And Dean's are big,
like you know, pounds, just like total softly but just
this big lump of the man. And he goes give
her bud, and I go, oh, Christ, And that's why
it's right here. I'll show you. That's why Dean is
right there on my shoulderings and be there forever. Bless you, lad,

(57:05):
bless you lads, buddy mine day. But I have one
that says not fragile on my wrist right here because
That's what Dean always used to tell me. He's like,
you're not fragile, because you and Dean were the people
that never underestimated me on that set. And he would
tell me that every single day and every time we
box and every time, you know, good day, bad day,
whatever it was. And I didn't know how much that

(57:28):
phrase meant to him until much later on. But as
soon as I heard that, that immediately the only tattoo
I haven't thought about for a year. It's immediately, that's amazing. Oh,
that's amazing, I would say, guys, I'm still grieving him hard.
We all are, yeah, and I know, I know you are.
And and honestly, it inspired a lot of change in

(57:52):
my life for the better. And I will admit that
I've I've had to wander for the last couple of years.
In between work, I started to spend more and more
time up north, more sort of extreme expeditions that I
was taking twenty twenty days solo canoe trips, very up
there with the with the bears in the caribou, you know,

(58:14):
and I started filming them. I started to make them
into videos so that I could look at them later,
and I post them on YouTube, and a lot of
it has been about just processing the incredible effect that
that man had on my life and on the lives
of the people around me. You know, it's empowering. Now

(58:35):
I know that we got to share a version of
Dean that very few people in the world ever did
and and now ever will. And I am so grateful
that I was able to experience that relationship with Dean
with you guys, because you guys got him. You understood Dean,

(58:56):
you know, even when he was standing right there behind
eating a devil bay like he always seemed to be eating,
you know, and and and uh, oh my god, it
was just like, I'm so glad that that it was
you guys, because you you understood why Dean was awesome,
you really did. And uh and I'm forever, forever grateful,

(59:17):
and I love him with all my heart. And I
and I talked to Dino every day. Yeah, I talked
to him every day. And and I just want you
to know that he loved you guys, like you know,
when it was just him and I driving home because
he thought he was going to have a ride and
it's gone. And now when I'm driving him home, you know,
we'd be you know, we'd be singing at the top

(59:40):
of our lungs, listening to Pearl Jam and Sound Garden,
and you know, and we'd be driving home and then
out of nowhere, he'd stop, turn the music down. He'd say,
I love those kids a but just out of nowhere,
you know, he would just come up with some story
that something you guys were talking about, like from the heart,
hundred percent. God bless him. God bless him then, And

(01:00:03):
so God bless you guys for being a part of it.
And and I know that whenever I talked to you,
whenever we text, whenever we share, and I say I'm
missing Dino, and you guys come back and say remissing
him to like I know you are. You know what
I mean. And it's it's it's a comfort, it's a comfort.

(01:00:24):
It took me a long time to be able to
box again. Honestly, I bet long time. And I bet
you know it's we are a family and we always
will be. And that kind of trust and that kind
of love is not something that comes easily, and it's
not something that's ever going to go away. No, it isn't.

(01:00:48):
And and I will say that I don't make friends
that I make lots of friends, but I don't have
many close friends. But Dean was definitely that guy. And
I think Dean was best friends with lots of people,
and he was he was everybody loved, you know, you know,
and and you know that I'll just I'll share something

(01:01:08):
that you guys might not realize. I know what I'm
doing out there, but still I'm a human being. And
sometimes the massiveness of what it was that I would
be doing sometimes would make me nervous. And and I
remember Dean would come up and he'd look at me'd
be like, you got this a but remember him saying

(01:01:30):
that you got this it but and he'd be like,
I can see you're worried about but you got this.
Like I'm I'm here, I'm fucking right here, right but
and he would say that, and it would just like,
you know, it would make me feel tan feet taller
wood makes men use that I trust you. Yeah, maybe

(01:01:51):
I do have this, yeah Jesus dude, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And he always had a smile in his face. You know,
nine times that Jesus, what time day it was, he
was always Swinney. I remember when he was in that
fucking fast suit and it's like wrenched in his own swear.
It was like twenty pounds heavy. And he was just laughing. Man,

(01:02:12):
he was just smiling all day every day. But so
that guy, God bless and thank you for talking about that.
Obviously we all know. Yeah, I honestly I didn't know
whether or not to bring it up, and I sort
of danced around it for a second, and I was like,
you know what, he was a huge part of what
we did, Like every time we were up in the wire,
the person making sure we didn't drop fifty deaths was deep.

(01:02:34):
Oh yeah, and he would obsess about it to be like,
you know, I'd be working on a budget or something.
I'd be working long after the training day and everything
will have already been set up for the next day,
you know, whether we were in the cloisters or wherever
it was that we were shooting. And I remember sometimes
just walking out to look at it and there'd be Dean.
He'd be up there checking it again, you know, checking

(01:02:57):
the wire one more time, checking the harness one more time.
You know. It was just one of those things where
I knew that that there was legitimate love. It was
legitimate love for you guys, and we were both very
very aware that the faith that you were putting in
us to do the extreme stuff that we did. And
there was lots of extreme stuff that we did that's

(01:03:19):
very hard to quantify. We could tell stories for days
and days and days about different fights we did about Oh, dude,
I remember you in one fight scene where you're full
on defending yourself YouTube Cat. I remember where it's like
if you guys didn't get that sort out, and so
often Cat, you'd have that stupid little dag and I'd
be stressing about it, you know, and you guys would

(01:03:43):
make the block, you know, you'd make the block, you know,
and I'd feel like thank goodness, you know, and very
often do and I would talk about it. We'd be
like we would both know the scares that we had
where where it's like I thought Allan was going to
crack him right over the head that time, you know,
or you know or whatever. You know, it's like, oh

(01:04:03):
my god. And there were some wire gags that I know,
you guys know, they're scary. They're a little scary, and
you know you got to lay back in the wires
sometimes or whatever. And Dean and I when we would
talk about it after. We would always know what moments
made us both so nervous, and it was always closely

(01:04:23):
associated with love for you guys for trusting us and
allowing us to create what we did. You know, it
was so much more real than people would believe. It
was so freaking real. It really was. And and I'll
tell you it's been a long path to be able
to talk about even just to be able to talk
about Dean. There was literally a year and a half

(01:04:44):
when I couldn't look back at our old videos of
fights we did. I couldn't. It's been a combination of
time and professional help and working on my mental health. Um,
no kidding, but same here, dude. Like it's especially like
and I don't mean alien age in this, because everyone
deals with grief a certain way, but men of our

(01:05:05):
age especially was sort of taught to deal with grief
a very different way and it's not the right way
of doing it. It's not a healthy way of doing it.
And if there are men out there dealing with grief,
I hope you listen to this and some small part
of you goes it is okay to um to reach
out and to talk to people about it. Because it's important.
And I've mentioned this before and it is really important,
and thank god that you you did. You know, you

(01:05:26):
never know when it's going to get you, Like I was,
fuck me, man, this is so like I was annoyed
that this situation happened, and I got so upset by
I just like immediately started balling my eyes out. I
was watching fucking Resident Evil too, and it was way
too close to it happening, and right at the end
made it the whole way through the movie and then boom,
there's Dean's face and I'm like, okay, yep, here I go. Yeah,

(01:05:48):
I'm absolutely devastated. Legs taken rad off from under you. Yeah, dude, yeah, man,
Like someone kicked the back of my knees in. It
was nuts. That was awful, yeah to my Yeah. And
I think that, um, that grief is definitely something people
don't understand that it can literally traumatize you. And I
would that that was definitely an effect for me. Um.

(01:06:12):
And you know, and there was a couple of major losses,
all closely connected, Like I mean, I lost Fred only
months later. Um after devastated, man, absolutely devastated my giant dog, Fred,
my giant English Master Fred who was awesome, And I
had them for nine years and I know that a
giant dog like that generally they don't live that long.

(01:06:33):
So it was Yeah, it was incredibly difficult. And I'm
very very grateful that there are resources out there to
help to help with the trauma, to help with the
depression that can come with from from grief and you know,
enhance all of the traveling that I did, that the
hardcore canee trips, close calls with bears and all the
rest of it all flowed from that. Oh, I had

(01:06:55):
a couple of close ones, boy, and it all flowed
from that and has got me to a much more
positive place in my life. And uh, and I'm grateful.
So it's there you go. You know, sometimes something that
can just feel like the worst thing ever, that takes
forever to recover, can actually transport you to a place
where you are healthier, happier, better adjusted, you know, in

(01:07:19):
much more in a in a stable sort of flow.
There's hope, even when it feels like there isn't. There's hope. Yeah, absolutely, right, words,
thank you. I can't think of a better way to
round this out as well, I can. I know you've
got to get off and Darren, we don't want to
take up any more of your time. So Darren, thank
you so much for talking to us. Man. They just
the little trip down memory lane and seeing your face again,

(01:07:41):
it's been such a pleasure. Please please, please, thank you.
It's so let's all get together and have a drink
one of these days and just keep talking because I
miss you, Darren, and thank you for everything you taught
us and are still teaching us. Um, there's not a
day goes by that we don't that you influence our
lives in one way or another. So just thank you,

(01:08:03):
Thank you so much. And I want to say from
my brother Chris and myself because we both sort of
we definitely collaborated on the original concept of this show
and we talked about it often and we think of
you guys often, and it's I just love you both
and thank you so much. Thank you. Return to the

(01:08:28):
Shadows is hosted and executive produced by me Dominic, Shrwood
and Katherine McNamara. Our executive producer is Lingley. Our senior
producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. Our producer is
Hannah Harris and Kristin Familiar and our intern is sam Cats.
Original music by Alex Kinzy performed by Alex Kinzy and
Katherine McNamara, and the episode was mixed by Seth A.

(01:08:48):
Lanski