October 26, 2023 • 50 mins
A man loves rare books. A lot. But the man doesn't have any money and those rare books are pricey. So he steals books. A lot. There was one man, though, who couldn't let this happen. One man standing for truth, justice, and the literary way. So began a cat and mouse game that exists to this day.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey, Elizabeth Dutton, how's it going. I'm pretty good. I've
been waiting for you. Oh yeah, it's fine, but it's fine, Elizabeth.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Okay, whatever, I wasn't waiting blood. You know what's ridiculous?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I do? Okay? Can I tell you?
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'd love it before Bruce Willis took the role. Bruce
Willis out of guy. Lots of other people were offered
this part. Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was offered it. He turned
it down. Why because he wanted to get into comedy.
Elizabeth Sylvester Stallone he turned it down. Clint Eastwood, El Gibson,
James Kahn turned it down, Richard Gear turned it down. Finally,
the role was offered to Frank Sinatra. He also turned
(00:41):
it down. Now that actually made the most sense, even
though Frank was in his seventies. Now, why did it
make sense to offer a role to Frank sinatchra before
Bruce Willis and that role turned out to be die Hard?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
That was gonna say, That's all I could think when
die Hard?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Wow, Yes, the role Diehard originally was going to Frank
Sinatra was better fit. And I honestly, he can tell you.
There's a good reason. Diehard is based on Roderick Thorpe's
novel Nothing Lasts Forever. In that novel, retired detective Joe
Leland takes on terrorists in the headquarters of the Claxon
Oil Corporation on Christmas e. Nothing Last Forever was the
(01:14):
sequel to Thorpe's nineteen sixty six novel The Detective. Now,
if you know your Sinatra filmography, then you know that
that book was also adapted into a movie of the
same name, and it came out first obviously in nineteen
sixty eight. The Detective featured joe Leland as the officer
investigating a supposed suicide, and joe Leland was played by
Frank Sinatra.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
One of the.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Biggest box office hits of Sinatra's whole career was The Detective.
It was one of the highest gropasing movies in nineteen
sixty Ye you ever heard, I know a lot of
people haven't. I've watched it. It's actually kind of enjoyable,
really gritty. Yeah. So if Sinatra had returned to the
role of John McClain, which they would have still called
John Leland, Diehard would have been a sequel.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Wow, you know whatdiculous? It's ridiculous. Do you want to
know what else is ridiculous?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Dude?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Do I highbrow Kleptomania? Oh, this is ridiculous Crime a
(02:24):
podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists, and cons. It's
always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred percent ridiculous.
You heard that. How many books do you think you owned?
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Zarin Books?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Jeez?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
A lot?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Like I have a pretty good library. I don't even
have all my books with me, like in my living space,
so I would thousands.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Really. Yeah, My mom has a library in her house
and then they are also well they are like bookcases
in all the other rooms, so I think her total
has to be well north of a thousand.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Oh no, he is like, yeah, it's a ten thousand
lot of books, a lot of books, stack, a lot
of novels and stuff. Real quick.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Oh yeah, well, I like I have bookcases and then
I have books stacked on the ground in my in
my office. And I moved to ebooks because storage was
becoming an issue. And then I moved to audio books
because I'm an old lady. I'm really enjoying it, like
in the garden.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Okay, anyway, some old radio shows. I haven't even gotten
audiobooks yet.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I'm feeling the audiobooks right now. But speaking of books, Yes,
what would you say are your top five books? Like,
in no particular order. I know it's a tough one,
like top five, you know, top five bands or songs.
That's really hard. You know, we should we should just
have an episode that's us listing our top fives of
stuff and then accusing each other of the crime of neglecting.
(03:42):
That's my indulgence. But anyway, what would you just, off
the top of your head? Top five books.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I'm gonna go top five, not the top five I
think that are best. I'm gonna go with most formative,
because I think that's easier for me to exactly. Okay,
Number one the Bible according to Mark Twain, Okay, the
full title.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
And number two Lynston Hughes, The Big Cu. Number three
that's his auto that's his autobiography or one of his
books is autobiographical. Number three, The Book of Laughter and
Forgetting Wlankandera. I really liked that one Fear of Flying
Erica Jong because of when I read it, it meant a
lot to me, and I love Tropica Cancer by Henry Miller,
so I put those kind of together. But if I
(04:21):
said Tropic Cancer Hendry Miller is.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Just like, really, you were perfect?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, exactly once again, So I'm gonna go with the
zipliss f of Erica Jeong on this one instead, So
Fear of Flying and then lastly, if I'm being honest,
I would say Fear of Fear and Loathing Las Vegas.
I read it one day in a park and it
was an amazing novel. And I was really young. I
was in college, and of course it was the exact
perfect time to read a book like that. I was
blown away by the use of the language to tell
(04:45):
you the storytelling. I mean, so, I thought that was
a really powerful book. And I had read other stuff
his prior to it. Yeah, I thought that one was
just really great and I read it all one sitting,
which is I recommend I read to Dartha like that.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
It's really weird formative.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Also, your book Driftwood coming in at U number five
is with an asterisk because I feel like you'd be like, no,
you can't say that your book drift Woods.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Oh, thank you?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
What? Top five?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
That's good? Here are my top five. Thank you for asking.
Oh yeah, what are your no particular tell me what
Joan Didion's Run River, or if I were to go
like nonfiction slouching towards both the Him one hundred Years
of Solitude, Gabriel because Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, or maybe
like Travels with Charlie or with cortes Ian Rankins, Knots
(05:30):
and Crosses. I don't know that that's the first Inspector
Rebis novel.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
You told me about Inspector I like, I want to
check this.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
And then The Heart is a Lonely Hunter by Carson
I think would be like some of these I love
for the craft of them, and then some I love
because they remind me of the place and time in
my life. When I read them, like you were.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
To formative books, it stayed with me.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, exactly. And so you know, like any like if
I would have like a song or a movie or
band list, it's shifting sands, you know. It's sort of
like in this what you come up with off the
top of your head. Listen, rude dudes, tell us your
current five top current top five books in the comments
on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Ridiculous crime book clubs.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Really eager to see what people love seriously, So yeah,
go to Instagram and put your top five in the comments.
So anyway, books, I have a ton of books, but
I don't have any rare ones. I have like the
giant Old Family Bible, but like it's not worth money
in the real world.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
You don't have like a first printing of the de
camera On.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
No, just no, I have. I have assigned Anne LaMotte
bird by bird, and she told me she doesn't sign books,
but I was like, I was able to browbeat her
in the signing.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Really.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah, so that's like the most you know, high level
I have. Do you have any rare books? And then
where are they located in your house? And how far
are you from the nearest rare bookstealer. I'm just just curious.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Just curious. Now. Actually, I do have some books that
are worth something. A couple of them are like weird
aesoteric books. I've got some really old Freemason books that
a friend of mine gave me that are like from
the nineteenth century, wow, that are definitely worth something. I
have some American history books that are some first printings
that are like written by people from American history. So yeah,
I'm not going to tell you about where they are
because I don't trust you. Call me a freak.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, there are people who dedicate their lives to rare books.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And well some do you do you have any rare books?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I just told you you have none, none.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Zero, zero, second time.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And LaMotte bird by Bird and then I have a
gigantic old family bible that has like deeds in like
real estate letters from the gold Rush era. That's all
I have. But so people, there are people who dedicate
their lives oh their books. Some are like they collect.
Some are there to preserve. They really just want to
preserve them, the first editions and such and zaren you
(07:48):
know what happens when there are valuable objects that are
portable and sold with little or no paperwork. Yes, crime, yes,
exactly crime. Enter John Charles guilty. My dude was born
in Modesto, California.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I know where that is.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
In nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I'm wearing a Modesto Nuts minor league baseball cap. Right.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Their minor league team is called the Nuts, and you
have a hat and you're wearing it. Go Nuts, Go Nuts.
It's the craziest looking at Anyway, I've mentioned Modesto briefly before,
and you know you laughed at it. But I think
it's a I think it's a great Central Valley.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
No, I picked because I'm from Davis, so I'm out
of the Central Valley, and therefore I look down on
Stockton in California.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Central Valley feeds the world, and you gotta respect, please,
you gotta give respect. Modesto ninety miles east of San Francisco.
It's like smack dab in the middle of robust farmland.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
San Franisco's on your way to the Gold Country.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Do you know how the city got its name, by
the way, Modesto.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, for being a very demure and modest environ Well.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
It started out as a stop on the railroad that
connected Sacramento to Los Angeles. Yeah, Central Pacific. Yeah, eighteen
seventies when it was created. One of the founders of
the railroad company, Mark Hopkins, he wanted to name it
after his associate, a banker named William Ralston, and yeah,
Ralston told him to pick something else, don't call it Ralston.
(09:12):
And then a railroad employee overheard this conversation and then
said really loudly in Spanish that Ralston was a modest man,
and so the other founder of the company, Charles Crocker,
another big he decided to call the place modest though,
in honor of Ralston's Yeah, exactly, the modest one. Moestah,
(09:35):
so guilty Modesto's own. I'm not sure if you would
call him modest. Well, judge, you'll judge for yourself when.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
You try not to judge Elizabeth just watching judging.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
When he was a little kid, he started showing his
true colors, you know, as we all do. But his
true color was a hue called kleptomenia.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yes, he could not The kid could not stop stealing.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
He rant color.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
When he was nine, he stole a baseball catcher's mitt.
He got it home and he realized the mitt was
for left handed people and he's right handed. Ramp So
where did he get these thieving ways, you know, that's
the big question. Well, his parents, they wound up helping
him out with that in later years. So I think
it was like a nature nurture even balance for this
(10:21):
modesto nut Gilkey. He doesn't just love to steal. He
has other passions like reading. Oh, he fell in love
with reading. Thanks to Richie Rich comic books.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Hey got to start somewhere. That's a good place.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
The Richie Rich character who's called the poor little rich Boy,
only child of super wealthy parents, girl's richest kid. Yeah,
you just want to like smack him. He was so
rich that, like his middle name was a dollar sign,
so gross, gold toilets all around. Did you ever get
into Richie Rich?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Look at me? Do you think I wanted to read
a Little Rich Boy? No, I wanted.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
He never did it for me.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
My sister liked Actually, so they were in the house.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
I saw, okay, And I told you I had this
weird thing where like I felt I could like probably
beat him up, and I didn't respect that.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I barely Casper the ghost. I mean, I can tolerate
that kind of a kid like these, you know, and
also like a Heathcliff another one. I'm like, I don't know, Garfield,
what is this?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
So?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
You know what? When I was a kid, I had
those Garfield books. I can remember like laughing hysterically at them,
and then I've looked at them since and.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Being like what my parents worried about me?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I'm sure at the age of five, what was I on.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Well, at least we've got two kids, because this one
little that's not right.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Okay, So for both of us, and we are speaking,
I'm trying to just make my mom proud. So Richie
rich comic books. They sent John Charles Guilty into a
fantasy world of wealth and instant gratification. And he was
there for it. He was living for it.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It was his Calvin and Hobbes.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yes, so or bloom County County. So you know you
love reading, you love books, you love stealing stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yes, talking about me or friends.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
We have a mashup on our hands. So in nineteen
ninety seven, Guilty was twenty nine years old. He went
to his first ever antiquarian book fair, Zarin, Where was
your first antiquarian book fair?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Elizabeth? I'm so pleased to you ask me this question.
It's lying there in the promise of the future before
me somewhere. I can't quite see it. It's not come
into view, but I can feel it approaching an antiquary coming.
Do you see it? Are you going to bring it
to me?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I think so, because it would be my first antiquarian.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Did dawn break on the horizon?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I bet you'd be cool. So in his first antiquarian
book fair, he bought three tomes yes, a first edition
of The Dunewich Horror by H. P. Lovecraft, Rosemary's Baby
over eleven, and seven Gothic Tales by Isaac Dennison.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Likes them dark tails.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, he's a spooky boy. And then you know, he
and the vendors, they're charmed by this whole thing. They're
just having a great time until the vendors realized that
he had paid for all three of them with bad
checks and maxed out credit cards. Oops ooopsies. To quote Sophocles,
profit is sweet, even if it comes from deception. Then,
and to quote Homer, so Gilki he had. He had
(13:20):
a real job. Sometimes. He got a holiday temp job
at Saxsmith Avenue department store in San Francisco. He was
the perfect employee. Everyone loved him. He even got a promotion,
which I didn't think was possible for holiday temp work.
But what have you. Maybe they promoted him to a
full time gig. Either way, he was working. While he
(13:40):
was working, what do you mean, Elizabeth, What do you mean, Elizabeth?
Great question, Dave. So he was spreading holiday cheer and
collecting credit card numbers oh.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I love doing that. Hundreds of great way to holiday.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
He would record a credit card number and then wait
a month before using it, which is smart. Yeah, No
one suspects that the information was lifted at Sacks. You know,
could be anywhere after a month. And I figure, if
you're shopping at SAX in the holiday season, you're putting
some miles on that card. The plastic is getting put
through the paces to melting exactly. That back and forth
(14:16):
teaching is that a lot of friction. So once he
had the card and enough time had passed, he would strike.
He'd hit up a payphone in a hotel lobby and
from there he'd place book orders at rare booksellers and
he'd either pick up the book and say that he
was just a friend doing it as a favor for
the buyer, or he'd have his dad go pick it up.
Oh wow, Yeah, his dad was all about this.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
They did teach him the life.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, oh yeah. His dad loved criming. So but I
don't know if his dad, like I think that Guilkey
brought his dad into criming. But you have to have
some element at home if you can.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, or at least you know, you lean that way.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah, so Gilkey and his dad. They researched the Modern
Library's list of one hundred best novels looking for potential
high value targets. So if you want books that are
or something, they have to have credibility with the people.
So guilty steps were impressive. Autograph copies of Mayor of
Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy, an Invisible and an autograph copy
(15:11):
of Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. Huh. A first edition
of the Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck, which was like,
oh my god, unipper O Sarah, founder of the California Missions.
Another one of.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Those find edition.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Just cursed. First editions of Jack Kerouac's On the Road Tennessee,
Williams the street Car Named Desire, Kay Thompson's Elouise in Paris,
and Mark Twain's Life on the Mississippi first edition. He
was racking him up.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
He's also going for all big names.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
He was, though, about to cross pads with another character
in this tale, a white hat on the horizon, ready
to take down such a vile thief, Ken Sanders, a
man named Ken Sanders.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Future Kentucky chicken owner, Yeah exactly, and Colonel in the army.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Dude was born in nineteen fifty one to some lapsed
Mormons in Salt Lake City, Utah, and early on he
decided the best way to approach religion was to quote
stay the hell away from it. Yes, head, So, Ken
Sanders is more than a non Mormon. Though he's a
book dealer. He's also the head of security for the
Antiquary and Booksellers Association of America a BAA A BAH.
(16:22):
Another thing about Ken Sanders, he's an amateur detective, a
self appointed quote biblio Dick.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Yes that I.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Cannot stress how much I love this, the whole thing.
I'm savoring all the details, so biblio Dick. Sanders. He
noticed a trend. He heard about more and more book
dealers who'd been the victim of bounce checks, fraudulent credit
card charges. Dealers. You know, they report thefts to the
ABAA A BAA in what are called pink sheets, and
they're piling up. So when when he notified the police
(16:51):
of this pattern he was seeing, they just did not care.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Nerds poured a keg on him and like push him
into a locker.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I could, biblio Dick, because it sounds like something Vincent
Price would play like this really confident nerd.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
You just would Would the biblio dick be dissuaded?
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I gotta know, are you I doubt it?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Are you pickling kidding me? So Sanders he sounded the alarm.
He let other book dealers know about the rash of thefts,
and he said, most dealers in rare books are quote
a very small mom and pop operation, So losing five
thousand dollars book is pretty serious adverse economic impact.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, that's huge rrect Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
You can't have that. So the biblio dick he took action.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Oh so he got to like not to shoe leather
but book leather.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Right, he just bounded on up. So Sanders he developed
an online system to track thefts, and he also came
up with a way to get the theft notifications to
other booksellers as quickly as possible, less smart so no
more pink sheet filing stacking up nineties baby. So, with
his data set established, he saw a pattern. There was
one thief who worked pretty much only on the West coast,
(17:54):
using stolen credit cards, and the books were later picked
up by a quote friend. But there was a curious
detas tail in this. The books never resurfaced on any
market for resale, never came up. Let's take a break.
When we come back, we'll continue this developing Guilty Biblio
Dick Cat and Mouse game.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, Hello was.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Aaron, Hello Elizabeth. We're talking biblio dis.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Biblio Dick Modesto's own Charles John, Charles Gilkey Utah's finest
ken Biblio Dick Sanders. I just love saying.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
It's your heart out Montana.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Books are important to both of these fellas, and so
let's look at Sanders' backstory. His love of books and
books selling started at a young age, just like Gilkey.
It started with comic books. He'd sell comic books to
his pals in grade school. His favorite character not Richie
Rich spider Man, like it, Gordon spider Man, dds spider Man.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I love the crime fighting dentist.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Sanders explained quote he had powers, but he was messed up.
What awkward kid wouldn't be attracted to him? God bless My.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Best friend of was a huge Spider Man. J Charlesworth
loved the Spider Man.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I know so much about him just from our bike
riding conversations.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
So this guy biblio Dick. His grandparents would take him
to Bertrand Smith's Acres of Books. You ever heard of Acres? Yeah,
it was a huge independent bookstore in Long Beach, California.
It's no longer, but at the time it was the
largest and oldest family owned secondhand bookstore in California. It
had more than a million books in stock. Yeah, it
(19:49):
sounds like heaven and it was for Sanders. The future
Biblio Dick would talk to the owner Bertrand Smith himself
about Edgar Allan Poe, Maxfield Parrish, Lewis Carroll, which I
love Maxfield Parish art. It's cheesy, but I love it.
I love a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, I love a lot of cheesy.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
So what do you always say?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
What everybody corny?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Everybody corny? When you embrace that, yeah, it's all okay.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, once you realize you hang out, he probably surprised.
You're like, oh, man, I was hanging out these people
I thought were whatever, cool, tough with it, and they're
like they were just because you know why I hung
out with everybody? Everybody corny?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah exactly, So the biblio Dick he corny too. Smith,
the owner of the bookstore. He was impressed by the
boy's curiosity, so he would let him into the rare
book room at the store, and that's where Sanders got
to see first hand stuff like first edition Edgar Allan Poe,
the Rate. And so this is how he recalled it, quote,
(20:46):
I have always been a bookseller. I created Cosmic Aeroplane
Books out of Steve Jones's old hippie head shop in
nineteen seventy five, founded my own publishing company, Dream Garden
Press in nineteen eighty and I've been running Ken Sanders
Rare Bookstown Salt Lake City for the past twenty five years.
My dad joked that when my mom gave birth to me,
I was clutching a book. It's the only world I
(21:07):
ever wished to know. Wow, Yeah, I love this guy.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
So you take that love of books and then a
sense of justice and you get biblio Dick.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, and that that little bit of spider Man. I
can do this, Yes, example don't expect me to, but
I can do this.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
So this is how he said quote. I would certainly
be the last person to deny that I'm obsessed with books.
If you want to say I'm obsessed with book thieves
as well. I probably wouldn't argue that point either.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, fair point.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
So one time Sanders chased a book thief on foot
and then smashed their car window as they were attempting
to drive away. Like he does not play, Ye, Biblio
Dick does not play.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
He's reminding me more and more of my friend exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Sanders, driven by the love of books, justice detecting, he
coordinated a sting. Oh yes, so January twenty ninth, two
thousand and three. Gilky's now thirty four years old.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
He got heel like he would bring in furries to
help him, Like you now, I like this guy. Do
you see the furries who did like the hacking recently,
there's like a team of furries who've been out there
like hacking all these like spaces like then, like shutting
things down and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
They go, they put on a furry costume, like a costume.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, they're like amateur superhero furries. So there, their superhero
costume is a furry.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
They just sweat it up.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Oh yeah, smells bad exactly. But I imagine like that
would be his kind of friends. You know, he could
like call a friend, his friend shows up and like
he's driving over to furry costume in a Honda Civic.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
See. I didn't connect him to the furries, but that
same sense of like righteousness, like and like interest your
own way. Yeah, okay, I'll give it to you. So guilty.
Thirty four years old. January of two thousand and three,
he got on the phone and he called a rare
bookstore in Santa se California, San is So he ordered
(22:50):
up a rare edition of the Grapes of Wrath by
John Steinbeck, six thousand dollars out the door. So guys like, great,
can I get your credit card numbers? Like sure, it's one, two,
three for jan five, Potato six. Cool. Like what are
you going to pick this book up, mister page r
Bookington And he's like, oh, you know what, ship it
to my hotel in Palo Alto. It's like San Jose
(23:13):
and Palo Alto aren't that far apart. Palo Alto is
a lovely town that's been ruined by Facebook. Another tech nonsense.
That's another crime for another time. So ship it to
Palo Alto, he says. Little does he know the bookstore
in santase was working with Sanders the Biblio Dick. So
as soon as they got the call and it matched
(23:33):
all the other Hanky patterns, they alerted him and Biblio
Dick went right to the cops. That credit card number
they ran it stolen, So the cops they go to
the hotel and they wait and Guilkey he showed up
and the police nabbed him. He told him, dude, I'm
nothing but a transient, a mere drifter. Really yeah, yeah, no,
(23:54):
I just made that up.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I am nothing but a mere drifter.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I'm going to go to where there's like police activity
and just walk up to them and be like, I
am nothing. I am a mere transiend I'm mere drifter.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
I want you to promise me that you've ever see
news cameras ever walk up and act like you saw
whatever the crime was, and start giving an impromptu interview
on camera.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Now, my grandfather, oh I want for my birthday, Elizabeth,
did you doing a on camera interview as a character.
My grandfather, when I was growing up, he would call
us at the house and be like, you gotta watch
Channel seven six o'clock news, and he's like, just watch
because he would see them doing like in San Francisco
he'd be you know, they'd be filming something like that,
and he would walk back and forth in the background. Yeah,
(24:36):
And we just watched him walk back and forth, back
and forth, and he'd be like, did you see me?
I'm like totally grand book. That's awesome anyway.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
See, you got a family tradition double I do.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
So I'm a I'm a TRANSI and the moondrifter h
And he's like, someone paid me twenty bucks to just
pick up a book. I don't know what it's about,
but I'll take twenty bucks.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
So the police let him go, but then they followed
him to where he said the exchange point was going
to be, you know, the like I'm supposed to pick
up this book and take it over here to this
Wiener Schnitzel or whatever. No one shows up, so they
arrest him. He gets booked for credit card fraud and
grand theft. And because of this, a search warrant was
issued for his apartment on Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
And where is that, Elizabeth.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
It's a fake island. It's landfill. It's a fake island.
It was built for the nineteen thirty nine Golden Gate
International exposition, the World's Fair. It's in the middle. It's
at the midpoint of the Bay Bridge that connects San
Francisco to its better half. Oakland t I as we
call it, or as I call it, or as no
one calls it. It's attached to a real island. You're
a buena. It was a military base top Island, Traysure,
(25:42):
I call it Treysure Island. It was a giant film
stage at one point. Right now it's been developed out
with housing and little dude had an apartment there. So
when the cops get into his place, he.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Lived in the middle of a bridge on a fake
If you have to take a bridge to leave house
in either.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Direction, whatever you're going to do.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, if you want to go east, you gotta take
the bridge twice.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yep, exactly. So they go in and they find twenty
six confirmed stolen rare books, and then they found way
more rare books that they thought are likely stolen, but
they didn't have evidence for those, so they you know,
left and b where Jesus flaying him. But they got
the twenty six that were like, okay, these were actually
reported stolen, so guilty. He told the police that he
(26:24):
was unemployed, and he had no place of residence, which
is surprising since they were to his apartment.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Since they're in his house.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
And then he threw another supreods all your stuff, you
have a house, so like queen for a day. So
he posted bail for fifteen thousand dollars and so where okay,
where'd you get that? Then off he goes, Yeah, off
he goes. So the cops they keep their fingers crossed
that he's going to show up for his hearing scheduled
(26:52):
for February eighteenth, two thousand and three.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I'm going to take a flyer and say he did not.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Yeah, he did not. He did not. So we have
we have this fantastic tension with Gilkey the Fraudster book
thief and Sanders the Unstoppable biblio dick. Oh yes, I
think we need to add a new character up the
action of attention. Can I give you Alison Hoover Bartlett.
(27:17):
I know Bartlett. She's a journalist. She wrote a book
called The Man Who Loved Books Too Much. Yeah, she
saw this crazy thing playing out and she not only
wrote about it but inserted herself into the story too.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Joists Oh god.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, Bartlett said quote, we were all tenacious hunters. Guilkey
for books, Sanders for thieves, and me for both of
their stories.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Me for the story.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
So Bartlett is sympathetic to Guilkey. She even compares them
to mister Rogers.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Well, they both like sweaters. I suppose they got a
comfortable shoe thing going on.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Railway to a magical world. So here's her assessment of
the biblio dick though quote when people steal from anyone
in the trade, Ken Sanders feels an almost personal attack
on him, and he wants to do anything he can
to catch these guys. He is determined to catch book
thieves as guilty was in stealing the books.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I don't think I think it's a bad read. I
think that he's more determined. You're selling him short totally.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
So Bartlett spent lots of time with Guilkey trying to
understand his motivations. Apparently he used the term quote getting
things for free when he talked about his thefts. I
got this book for free library box, someone handed it
to him. He also complained how he quote didn't want
like to spend his own money. Yeah, no kidding, right,
(28:38):
So me neither kid, But what you know, this is life.
Bartlett figured that guilty quote actually stole for love the
love of rare books. That is so apparently rare book
theft is actually more common than fine art theft.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Oh yeah, more access.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Yeah, and forgery is also popular, which makes sense. So
like there aren't crazy minting marks and seals on old books,
and the materials aren't too hard to source, like if
you can find old stock of stuff like but when
I talk about the forgery, here's an example. The Great
Gatsby without a dust jacket, like a first edition no
dust jacket is worth one hundred and fifty bucks. Throw
(29:15):
an original dust jacket on that puppy and you're looking
at four thousand dollars. So thieves are going to want
to conjure up some old looking books.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
You've got to stop getting rid of my dust jackets.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
That's what I'm missing the moral of the story.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
And also what about when I put in the fake
signature autograph from the author? Should I be doing that?
Is that good?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
You just got to want to source older ink. You
want to make sure that you're using the time contemporary materials.
Just it's easy. So back to guilty, he eventually went
to trial. He did show up. He didn't plead out
during his trial. You know, he claimed to be innocent,
but at the same time he's telling everything to bartlet
So over the course of a year after the sting.
(29:55):
He then eventually pleads guilty to conspiracy, grand theft, identity theft,
credit card theft, and possession of stolen property.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Did they just run out of charges? Well, that's all
we got. The book is done, bro.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
He stole like about two hundred thousand dollars worth of books,
two hundred thousand dollars with the books mostly inner around
San Francisco between nineteen ninety nine and two thousand and three.
So he gets sentenced to eighteen months in San Quentin Prison. Yeah,
which is a pretty that has a pretty robust library.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
As far as that's actually, I've.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Been in San Quentin before. Yeah, it's you know, looks
like a prison from the thirties. It's crazy views outside,
spectacular right on the bay. Did you know that there's
actually a college located inside the prison.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
I did know that, Elizabeth, because you told me.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
It's called Mount tamil Pias College. It's an independent, nonprofit,
actual college in a prison. It's not connected. It's like
not a state college. The professors are all volunteers from
places like Callan Stanford's amazing, so look it up. Guilkey,
he cooled his heels in sand Do.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Have a podcast?
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, Houseley, So Gilkey, he's in San Quentin. He gets
released on parole less than two years later. And what
did you do when he got out?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Started stealing books?
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Bee?
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Hey Bartlett? It was it.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
What's that girl?
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
So Bartlett, I couldn't stop thinking about you.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Bartlett asks him, like, what are you going to do
for a job, and he says, quote work. Actually they
do have an opening at a bookstore. Like, oh, your horror,
you nave So they did go to a bookstore together though, okay,
and not for a job.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Search a date.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
There is a date, sharn close. I want you to
picture it. Yes, you are John Crichton, owner of the
brick Row Bookshop in San Francisco. It's founded in nineteen fifteen.
The brick Row one of the oldest antiquarian book businesses
in the whole United States. Today it's quiet and you're
behind the counter organizing a new batch of small Victorian
(31:55):
books you picked up recently. Charming little tomes no bigger
than your hand, each with beautifully embossed art new vague covers.
You have KCSM, the local jazz station playing quietly in
the background. The bell dings as the door opens, and
two people enter your shop, A shorter, balding man and
a pleasant looking woman Guilty and Bartlett for those of
(32:15):
us in the know, you're currently not in the know
Zarin aka John Crichton. So these two they chat quietly
to each other as they enter the store and begin
to look around. The guy looks familiar, but you can't
really place him. You ask if they need any help.
They tell you they're just browsing. Where do you know
that guy from it's driving you crazy? Does he live
in the neighborhood? But there's like something about him that's
(32:38):
giving you.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Bad vibes, say my bowling league in the seventies.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
But then that's it. You got it. A couple of
years ago you sold a copy of Hardy's The Mayor
of Casterbridge to a guy. Of course, great sale, twenty
five hundred dollars. Then a month after that you got
a call someone was complaining of a twenty five hundred
dollars charge on their credit card, even though they'd never
been to brick rope. For that is the castor bridge
(33:03):
guy man f that guy, you think, so you begin
to follow the pair around. Gilkey loudly complains about rare booksellers.
He moans about how the first editions he bought weren't
first editions after all, how books get described as having
dust jackets but they arrive naked. He goes on and
on about how antiquarian booksellers are all cheaters and liars.
(33:25):
The woman with him is like cringing. She looks like
she's dying inside. You're made to tough stuff. You don't
survive in the cutthroat, scheming, ultra violent, rare book world
without having some grit. It's you just keep following him around,
waiting for him to make a mistake, try and pocket
a book or something. That's when you're gonna go full
(33:45):
John Wick on the guy. He doesn't know about the
network of book assassins that you have, or quick staple
the upstairs filled with tattooed telephone operators waiting to put
a price on this guy's head. Or maybe that's all
just fantasy. Maybe whatever, you're tailing guy and you're enjoying
the jazz playing in the background. Then finally they leave
the store, the bell on the on the door bidding them,
(34:07):
I do you get on the phone? Who are you
gonna call? Kenny Sanders Biblio dick himself. Let's take a break.
When we come back, we'll see how this butting friendship
between the journalist and the thief develops. Welcome, what's up, hi, Bartlett? Yes,
(34:43):
he went with Gilkey to the scene in one of
his crimes, and he peacocked around the place, rubbing it
in dude's face. In your face. Darn ever, he rubbed
it in your face. So when Sanders found out about
this visit to brick Row, he was pissed. But he
was so pissed he dashed off a strongly worded email
to Bartlett.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Downed a glass of pepsi, and said that man has
it coming.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Quote, I don't want to hear about your sick games.
Ever again, he's not having it. So Bartlet, though, just
kept going deeper and deeper into the enigma that was Guilkey.
She visited with his family and was told by his
mother quote, I mean it's innocent. Maybe he was just
wandering around or looking around with a book, and he
must have forgot about it and then he got caught.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Ma'am, mom, come on, come.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
On, missus Gilkey. She showed Bartlet Gilkey's bedroom quote. His
shoes were neatly lined up on the floor, and artwork
he had collected hung on the walls. I made a
move to leave, but his mother motioned toward the closet,
which she opened. See how he keeps his things neat,
she said. And look more books, Yes, more books, stacks
(35:54):
and stacks of them. Their spines faced the back of
the closet, as if in hiding. This seemed the most private,
most intimate corner of Guilkey's room. But instead of looking
inside to see if I recognize any of the books
he had stolen, I turned away. I was afraid of
what I might find if I drew the books from
the pile, what degree of crime and what degree of
responsibility I might bear in knowing the books were there.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I'm less of an investigative journalist and more of an accomplice. Yeah. Wow,
So so he's living with his mom basically in his
little boy lifestyle, and his mom I want to see
his room, she like. I made the bed so please
forgive this, and then yeah, the whole like, do you
want to see my boy's room? And then she's say
the books all turned backwards, no spines forward, and she's like,
I don't want to touch the book pile. What did
(36:38):
she glean from this trip?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
A book? She wrote a book from it. Yeah, So
Guilkey and Bartlett they keep meeting for interviews over the
course of three years.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Wow and slow dating totally.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Not speak dating. Per book reviewer Joel Hyde quote, it
is easy to blame Bartlett for not cooperating more in
the apprehension of a thief, for embarking instead the fool's
errand of trying to understand his heart. It is easy
to blame her for blurring the distinction between the desire
to possess books and the desire to steal them, not
to mention the distinction between the desire to possess books
(37:12):
and the love of them. And then he goes on.
Every profession affords ethical dilemmas, and being reminded of how
difficult and necessary it is to struggle with those dilemmas
is of some value. It just isn't anywhere near as
valuable as it would be to get back books that
were stolen from.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Us exactly, so you can do both. You can return
the books and then wonder.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, Guilkey, he'd been hard to catch because rather than
resell the pieces he acquired, he hoarded them for himself.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
And they never had the markets again.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Right, So it's totally true. According to biblio Dick, these
are iconic, valuable books that everybody knows and they're very distinctive.
But I could never find any trace in the marketplace
of them resurfacing or being sold, so it's not this
is like, oh, he's living on this.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Guilkey confessed to Bartlett that what he really wanted was
a rare book collection that would be worth millions all
to himself.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Totally. He's like that collector in the Twilight Zone, or
his glasses break, or he's got all the books.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
It's like, yeah, so Bartlett, She wrote that Guilkey was
obsessed with quote the image of an English gentleman with
a grand library, and Bartlett said, quote he told me
he wanted to have a fine gentleman's library, and he'd
have a big oak desk with a globe on it,
and he would wear a smoking jacket. People would look
at his book collection and see that this was a
man of culture, an aeradype man, and that's what really
(38:40):
drove him.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
So he wanted to be Thomas Jefferson politics. He wanted
to be Richie rich You want to Ben Franklin. He
wanted to be one of those guys with a big He.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Wanted the world to see him as cultured and debonair.
And that's what he thought would be his ideal self.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Books that smelled of leather.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
And so, according to Bartlett, quote, he has the love
of books, but he also has a love of what
the ownership of books.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Says, Yes, what it means to others.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Yeah, just like collectors talk about their books on the
shelves is kind of a memoir that reflects on who
they are and what their interests are. Sure, Guilty's no different,
he told Bartlett. Quote, there's a sense of admiration you're
going to get from other people. So he's doing it,
you know, for four others.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, collecting books that no one ever will see. But
he's doing it so that he could imagine that other
people would find him more interesting, his imagination of others
would perceive them.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
So she said that Guilty was trying to build an
identity for himself, and he was trying to keep it
in the world. Yeah, but guilty said quote I never
take books from libraries, yet many people do and then
sell them at large profits. That would be stealing.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
I think they're both stealing. I think you can qualify.
It's not like only one of them can be stealing.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
So most of his thefts remain unrecovered, and they're believed
to be in a storage unit somewhere in northern California.
Let's get hunting, let's figure this out.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
You could probably find it. I would bet on you.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I could probably find it. So the full extent of
his thefts and the exact whereabouts the whereabouts of all
the books he stole totally unknown. Some think that the
mysterious storage unit contains not just rare books, but like autographs, prints, maps, stamps,
comic books, like Hollywood memorabilia, coins, maybe Guyeri's Lamba Yeah yeah,
(40:25):
and like since there isn't a.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Set on like basically a lottery ticket, and people know
that he's alive and it's somewhere, yeah, I feel for him.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah. So there's not a specific list of actual items
that have been stolen. And are believed to be in
the unit, So even if they knew where it was,
they don't have probable cause for a warrant. A judge
would never sign up. H Bartlett had all this access
to Guilkey, and Sanders, who'd never actually met him, had
a request. He told Bartlett, quote, ask him to tell
(40:54):
you the location of his storage unit where he hides
the books. It must be near his home in Modesto.
Gives me a clue. Guilty refused. He heard that request,
was like no.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, He's like, are you kidding? Whatever reason I did all.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
This, He's like, whatever, girl, Yeah, you're not mad.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
You're not my mom. Only she can make me make
my shoes be straight.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
I'm picturing Sanders biblio dick in his like film noir
office with theories and evidence and red string on the walls,
slamming his hand down on the desk when he hears this,
and then the furry at the desk and go for yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
You got it.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
It's like, I'm so close to like triangulating the location.
Let me just call Elizabeth and we'll work on this.
It's amazing that it is a much better story, right.
I just imagine like a big lavender tale.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Yeah, exactly, like an NFL mascot that's sexier. Totally to
that Directionndy, what you want.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Well, this is what biblio Dick has to say.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
Quote.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
He has this irrational belief that he deserves to have
a fine library, and since he can't afford it, we
who are in the trade, who have all of these
lovely books, deserve to just give them to him, And
since we won't, it's his or ordained right to steal
them from us. He's a dirty little book thief and
there's nothing romantic about it. There's nothing noble about him.
He might have a passion for books, but his passion
(42:09):
is for thievery. As far as I'm concerned, he's the
man who loved to steal books too much. And that's
where you good. Then he's a dirty little book thief.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
He ain't no Robin Hood no.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
According to Bartlett, quote, he has absolutely no remorse for
his crimes. He told me the details of how he
went about it, which I described in the book, but
he feels that it was his right to take the books.
During a phone conversation, he told Bartlett that it's like
he feels like he's sixty percent wrong and forty percent right,
and that well, he said that like book dealers are
(42:43):
like keeping these books from the public, which like you
with shoving them.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
In them from the public. They're offering them for sale
to the public.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
These books.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
One point, he said, quote, how am I supposed to
build my collection unless I'm like this multi millionaire?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Well, has he ever met a thought that actually followed
through on? Or did you always stop in the middle
and make a turn?
Speaker 4 (43:06):
Apparently not so.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
During two thousand and nine, a bookseller in Canada got
in touch with Sanders. She'd sold a book for five
hundred dollars, but the check was bad. Name on the check,
John Charles Gilkey, whoa chase was on He's back Fall
twenty ten. Gilkey gets arrested.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Oh so it wasn't like a copycat doing a little nod.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
No, he was just put his actual name on a check.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
That was like a loopan move. He like blaming someone else.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
My god, that would be perfect Fall twenty ten. He
gets arrested, not for kiting checks, stealing credit card numbers
so that he get like a first edition of Ojy's
if I did it. No, he was arrested for threatening
to burn down a print gallery in San Francisco after
the manager declined to sell him an item.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
See I'm telling you the boy I wrist.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
I was going to say, the boy ain't right, Like
he just burned it all down. December fifteenth, twenty ten,
he gets arrested again in San Francisco trying to steal
two antique maps. Okay, I don't know what became of
those arrests. July of twenty eleven, John Waite the security
chair of a baa Antiquarian Booksellers Association of America. He
(44:14):
posted a circulation please be aware that convicted fraudster and
thief John Gilkey is operating once again, likely out of
northern California. And like the alarms went off and there
were people like, oh my god, put my pants on,
I got to do this on the phone. Totally, there's
a hustle, there's like network lights loading their weapons the continent. Totally.
(44:35):
That's all I keep saying with this. Antiquarian Booksellers is
like a complete John Wick universe in my head, but
not as ultra violent.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Okay, sure for you whatever for me.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Cartoon violence, Yeah, I love cartoon violence. A comic book
dealer in New York State is his latest victim. In
addition to rare books, he's moved on to print stamp
comics like.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
She worked on LPs. Go Vinyl Right.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
He was arrested late last year in San Francisco following
a parole violation, but he was released after he or
someone posted seventy five thousand dollars bail.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Bartlet.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
This is this is the detail that's driving me nuts.
He's driving me modesto nuts. He's not selling the books
for cash. His family isn't rich, Bartlett. She wasn't there
for the first bail out, and she's not rich. Who's
bailing him out?
Speaker 2 (45:28):
I'm telling you it's Bartlett's my guest.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Do you think so?
Speaker 2 (45:31):
I think she loves it over that three years, but
a time I think she's like started to see something
in him. Maybe she's looking for book too. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
But he's skipped bail, of course, and there's an outstanding
warrant for his arrest and an ongoing San Francisco police investigation.
Really yeah, good luck with that. He basically disappeared, but
he's still active. So John Gilkey, if you're listening, you
are welcome to come on the podcast and tell your story.
(45:59):
We promise not to call Biblio Dick, although I probably will.
She will because amazing for her too. Biblio Dick, if
you want to come to hook it up, I want
to hear all your ridiculous crime story. I git one
hear your side, Gilkey, hit us up online. Let us
know you're still alive. Tell us what you're going to
steal next. Tell me where the where do you? Where's
(46:19):
your storage in case you need to ride? Do you
need to ride to your storage studio?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Yeah? I mean I'm gonna be a modesta for a game.
We can go nuts.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
I can take you anywhere, just I'll drive you there
as Aaron. What's your ridiculous takeaway?
Speaker 4 (46:32):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
For this one, I think it's got to be that
Bartlett thought that she would learn anything from this hanging
out with him for all these years. Because everything the
quotes you told me and what we've learned about him,
you're telling of his story, I did learn something. I
don't think we learned anything from her version, because it
seems like her perspective was kind of skewed, if that
(46:54):
makes sense. So I feel it's kind of like ridiculous
that she spent so much time around a person that
she should have just been dating, and then apparently she
got a book out of it, you know, So I'm like, oh,
you missed.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Yeah, it's fat. I'm fast.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
You're ridiculous takeaway. Thank you for I did not try
that sometimes, Okay, I will.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
I'm fascinated by her and her getting sucked into this.
You know, it makes for a good story. Biblio Dick
hero of all heroes.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Oh, I love me a good Jack Mormon. I grew
up in a town with a lot of Mormons, and
the ones who are ex Mormons fascinating. Well, a lot
of strength of character going against all of your family
and your culture. And really I often like.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
This guy's like so dedicated to books and literature, and
his investment in not just the value of the books
is like you know, commerce, but what they.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Mean and you know to others, not just to him.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Right, And when we're talking about like our top fives,
you think about what those books mean to us, and
that if you could have like first editions of those
or signed copies, how important that would be to you
and how connected you'd be because of the stories that
these writers have crafted. So if you want a first
edition signed driftwood.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
That just about a second. If I had the first edition.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Signed paperback has the better cover, I always go with
the paperback on that one.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I would be willing to steal one of those. You know,
do you have one? Don't answer that, don't ask.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
Well, that's all I have. You can find us online
at ridiculous crime dot com. There's merch there. I heard
sometimes no, sometimes yes. We're also at Ridiculous Crime on
Twitter and Instagram. I quit Twitter? What I deactivated my account?
Speaker 2 (48:35):
You did?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
I did?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
You know up his.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I'm not as brave as you do.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Not email?
Speaker 3 (48:41):
Do it? Do not email ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com.
And then, but please god, why aren't you people leaving
talkbacks on the iHeart app?
Speaker 2 (48:51):
We do like those. We'll start playing with you.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
I ask very little of the root is and I
give so much and all I wanted some talkback?
Speaker 2 (48:59):
You have the woman a pete.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
Uh, yeah, that's it. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth
Dutton and z Aaron Burnett, produced and edited by First
Edition Dave Cousten's Who Research is by Marissa handbound copy
of Leaves of Grass Brown and Andrea Brahmstoker's Dracula printed
(49:23):
on a silver dagger song Sharpened Hear. The theme song
is by Thomas Original Nancy Comic in a plastic sleeve
Lee and Travis Moneyball with no dust jacket. Totally naked,
totally legal, totally cool. Dutton Executive producers are Sergeant at
Arms of the A B A A. Ben Bollen and
Shadow Chancellor of the A B A A. Noel Brown.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Dus Crime Say It One More Time.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio four More Podcasts,
my heart Radios, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows,
Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey, Elizabeth Dutton, how's it going. I'm pretty good. I've
been waiting for you. Oh yeah, it's fine, but it's fine, Elizabeth.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Okay, whatever, I wasn't waiting blood. You know what's ridiculous?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I do? Okay? Can I tell you?
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'd love it before Bruce Willis took the role. Bruce
Willis out of guy. Lots of other people were offered
this part. Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was offered it. He turned
it down. Why because he wanted to get into comedy.
Elizabeth Sylvester Stallone he turned it down. Clint Eastwood, El Gibson,
James Kahn turned it down, Richard Gear turned it down. Finally,
the role was offered to Frank Sinatra. He also turned
(00:41):
it down. Now that actually made the most sense, even
though Frank was in his seventies. Now, why did it
make sense to offer a role to Frank sinatchra before
Bruce Willis and that role turned out to be die Hard?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
That was gonna say, That's all I could think when
die Hard?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Wow, Yes, the role Diehard originally was going to Frank
Sinatra was better fit. And I honestly, he can tell you.
There's a good reason. Diehard is based on Roderick Thorpe's
novel Nothing Lasts Forever. In that novel, retired detective Joe
Leland takes on terrorists in the headquarters of the Claxon
Oil Corporation on Christmas e. Nothing Last Forever was the
(01:14):
sequel to Thorpe's nineteen sixty six novel The Detective. Now,
if you know your Sinatra filmography, then you know that
that book was also adapted into a movie of the
same name, and it came out first obviously in nineteen
sixty eight. The Detective featured joe Leland as the officer
investigating a supposed suicide, and joe Leland was played by
Frank Sinatra.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
One of the.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Biggest box office hits of Sinatra's whole career was The Detective.
It was one of the highest gropasing movies in nineteen
sixty Ye you ever heard, I know a lot of
people haven't. I've watched it. It's actually kind of enjoyable,
really gritty. Yeah. So if Sinatra had returned to the
role of John McClain, which they would have still called
John Leland, Diehard would have been a sequel.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Wow, you know whatdiculous? It's ridiculous. Do you want to
know what else is ridiculous?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Dude?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Do I highbrow Kleptomania? Oh, this is ridiculous Crime a
(02:24):
podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists, and cons. It's
always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred percent ridiculous.
You heard that. How many books do you think you owned?
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Zarin Books?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Jeez?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
A lot?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Like I have a pretty good library. I don't even
have all my books with me, like in my living space,
so I would thousands.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Really. Yeah, My mom has a library in her house
and then they are also well they are like bookcases
in all the other rooms, so I think her total
has to be well north of a thousand.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Oh no, he is like, yeah, it's a ten thousand
lot of books, a lot of books, stack, a lot
of novels and stuff. Real quick.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Oh yeah, well, I like I have bookcases and then
I have books stacked on the ground in my in
my office. And I moved to ebooks because storage was
becoming an issue. And then I moved to audio books
because I'm an old lady. I'm really enjoying it, like
in the garden.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Okay, anyway, some old radio shows. I haven't even gotten
audiobooks yet.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I'm feeling the audiobooks right now. But speaking of books, Yes,
what would you say are your top five books? Like,
in no particular order. I know it's a tough one,
like top five, you know, top five bands or songs.
That's really hard. You know, we should we should just
have an episode that's us listing our top fives of
stuff and then accusing each other of the crime of neglecting.
(03:42):
That's my indulgence. But anyway, what would you just, off
the top of your head? Top five books.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I'm gonna go top five, not the top five I
think that are best. I'm gonna go with most formative,
because I think that's easier for me to exactly. Okay,
Number one the Bible according to Mark Twain, Okay, the
full title.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
And number two Lynston Hughes, The Big Cu. Number three
that's his auto that's his autobiography or one of his
books is autobiographical. Number three, The Book of Laughter and
Forgetting Wlankandera. I really liked that one Fear of Flying
Erica Jong because of when I read it, it meant a
lot to me, and I love Tropica Cancer by Henry Miller,
so I put those kind of together. But if I
(04:21):
said Tropic Cancer Hendry Miller is.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Just like, really, you were perfect?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, exactly once again, So I'm gonna go with the
zipliss f of Erica Jeong on this one instead, So
Fear of Flying and then lastly, if I'm being honest,
I would say Fear of Fear and Loathing Las Vegas.
I read it one day in a park and it
was an amazing novel. And I was really young. I
was in college, and of course it was the exact
perfect time to read a book like that. I was
blown away by the use of the language to tell
(04:45):
you the storytelling. I mean, so, I thought that was
a really powerful book. And I had read other stuff
his prior to it. Yeah, I thought that one was
just really great and I read it all one sitting,
which is I recommend I read to Dartha like that.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
It's really weird formative.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Also, your book Driftwood coming in at U number five
is with an asterisk because I feel like you'd be like, no,
you can't say that your book drift Woods.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Oh, thank you?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
What? Top five?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
That's good? Here are my top five. Thank you for asking.
Oh yeah, what are your no particular tell me what
Joan Didion's Run River, or if I were to go
like nonfiction slouching towards both the Him one hundred Years
of Solitude, Gabriel because Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, or maybe
like Travels with Charlie or with cortes Ian Rankins, Knots
(05:30):
and Crosses. I don't know that that's the first Inspector
Rebis novel.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
You told me about Inspector I like, I want to
check this.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
And then The Heart is a Lonely Hunter by Carson
I think would be like some of these I love
for the craft of them, and then some I love
because they remind me of the place and time in
my life. When I read them, like you were.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
To formative books, it stayed with me.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, exactly. And so you know, like any like if
I would have like a song or a movie or
band list, it's shifting sands, you know. It's sort of
like in this what you come up with off the
top of your head. Listen, rude dudes, tell us your
current five top current top five books in the comments
on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Ridiculous crime book clubs.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Really eager to see what people love seriously, So yeah,
go to Instagram and put your top five in the comments.
So anyway, books, I have a ton of books, but
I don't have any rare ones. I have like the
giant Old Family Bible, but like it's not worth money
in the real world.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
You don't have like a first printing of the de
camera On.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
No, just no, I have. I have assigned Anne LaMotte
bird by bird, and she told me she doesn't sign books,
but I was like, I was able to browbeat her
in the signing.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Really.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah, so that's like the most you know, high level
I have. Do you have any rare books? And then
where are they located in your house? And how far
are you from the nearest rare bookstealer. I'm just just curious.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Just curious. Now. Actually, I do have some books that
are worth something. A couple of them are like weird
aesoteric books. I've got some really old Freemason books that
a friend of mine gave me that are like from
the nineteenth century, wow, that are definitely worth something. I
have some American history books that are some first printings
that are like written by people from American history. So yeah,
I'm not going to tell you about where they are
because I don't trust you. Call me a freak.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, there are people who dedicate their lives to rare books.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And well some do you do you have any rare books?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I just told you you have none, none.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Zero, zero, second time.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And LaMotte bird by Bird and then I have a
gigantic old family bible that has like deeds in like
real estate letters from the gold Rush era. That's all
I have. But so people, there are people who dedicate
their lives oh their books. Some are like they collect.
Some are there to preserve. They really just want to
preserve them, the first editions and such and zaren you
(07:48):
know what happens when there are valuable objects that are
portable and sold with little or no paperwork. Yes, crime, yes,
exactly crime. Enter John Charles guilty. My dude was born
in Modesto, California.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I know where that is.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
In nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I'm wearing a Modesto Nuts minor league baseball cap. Right.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Their minor league team is called the Nuts, and you
have a hat and you're wearing it. Go Nuts, Go Nuts.
It's the craziest looking at Anyway, I've mentioned Modesto briefly before,
and you know you laughed at it. But I think
it's a I think it's a great Central Valley.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
No, I picked because I'm from Davis, so I'm out
of the Central Valley, and therefore I look down on
Stockton in California.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Central Valley feeds the world, and you gotta respect, please,
you gotta give respect. Modesto ninety miles east of San Francisco.
It's like smack dab in the middle of robust farmland.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
San Franisco's on your way to the Gold Country.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Do you know how the city got its name, by
the way, Modesto.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, for being a very demure and modest environ Well.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
It started out as a stop on the railroad that
connected Sacramento to Los Angeles. Yeah, Central Pacific. Yeah, eighteen
seventies when it was created. One of the founders of
the railroad company, Mark Hopkins, he wanted to name it
after his associate, a banker named William Ralston, and yeah,
Ralston told him to pick something else, don't call it Ralston.
(09:12):
And then a railroad employee overheard this conversation and then
said really loudly in Spanish that Ralston was a modest man,
and so the other founder of the company, Charles Crocker,
another big he decided to call the place modest though,
in honor of Ralston's Yeah, exactly, the modest one. Moestah,
(09:35):
so guilty Modesto's own. I'm not sure if you would
call him modest. Well, judge, you'll judge for yourself when.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
You try not to judge Elizabeth just watching judging.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
When he was a little kid, he started showing his
true colors, you know, as we all do. But his
true color was a hue called kleptomenia.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yes, he could not The kid could not stop stealing.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
He rant color.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
When he was nine, he stole a baseball catcher's mitt.
He got it home and he realized the mitt was
for left handed people and he's right handed. Ramp So
where did he get these thieving ways, you know, that's
the big question. Well, his parents, they wound up helping
him out with that in later years. So I think
it was like a nature nurture even balance for this
(10:21):
modesto nut Gilkey. He doesn't just love to steal. He
has other passions like reading. Oh, he fell in love
with reading. Thanks to Richie Rich comic books.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Hey got to start somewhere. That's a good place.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
The Richie Rich character who's called the poor little rich Boy,
only child of super wealthy parents, girl's richest kid. Yeah,
you just want to like smack him. He was so
rich that, like his middle name was a dollar sign,
so gross, gold toilets all around. Did you ever get
into Richie Rich?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Look at me? Do you think I wanted to read
a Little Rich Boy? No, I wanted.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
He never did it for me.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
My sister liked Actually, so they were in the house.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
I saw, okay, And I told you I had this
weird thing where like I felt I could like probably
beat him up, and I didn't respect that.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I barely Casper the ghost. I mean, I can tolerate
that kind of a kid like these, you know, and
also like a Heathcliff another one. I'm like, I don't know, Garfield,
what is this?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
So?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
You know what? When I was a kid, I had
those Garfield books. I can remember like laughing hysterically at them,
and then I've looked at them since and.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Being like what my parents worried about me?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I'm sure at the age of five, what was I on.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Well, at least we've got two kids, because this one
little that's not right.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Okay, So for both of us, and we are speaking,
I'm trying to just make my mom proud. So Richie
rich comic books. They sent John Charles Guilty into a
fantasy world of wealth and instant gratification. And he was
there for it. He was living for it.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It was his Calvin and Hobbes.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yes, so or bloom County County. So you know you
love reading, you love books, you love stealing stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yes, talking about me or friends.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
We have a mashup on our hands. So in nineteen
ninety seven, Guilty was twenty nine years old. He went
to his first ever antiquarian book fair, Zarin, Where was
your first antiquarian book fair?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Elizabeth? I'm so pleased to you ask me this question.
It's lying there in the promise of the future before
me somewhere. I can't quite see it. It's not come
into view, but I can feel it approaching an antiquary coming.
Do you see it? Are you going to bring it
to me?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I think so, because it would be my first antiquarian.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Did dawn break on the horizon?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I bet you'd be cool. So in his first antiquarian
book fair, he bought three tomes yes, a first edition
of The Dunewich Horror by H. P. Lovecraft, Rosemary's Baby
over eleven, and seven Gothic Tales by Isaac Dennison.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Likes them dark tails.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, he's a spooky boy. And then you know, he
and the vendors, they're charmed by this whole thing. They're
just having a great time until the vendors realized that
he had paid for all three of them with bad
checks and maxed out credit cards. Oops ooopsies. To quote Sophocles,
profit is sweet, even if it comes from deception. Then,
and to quote Homer, so Gilki he had. He had
(13:20):
a real job. Sometimes. He got a holiday temp job
at Saxsmith Avenue department store in San Francisco. He was
the perfect employee. Everyone loved him. He even got a promotion,
which I didn't think was possible for holiday temp work.
But what have you. Maybe they promoted him to a
full time gig. Either way, he was working. While he
(13:40):
was working, what do you mean, Elizabeth, What do you mean, Elizabeth?
Great question, Dave. So he was spreading holiday cheer and
collecting credit card numbers oh.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I love doing that. Hundreds of great way to holiday.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
He would record a credit card number and then wait
a month before using it, which is smart. Yeah, No
one suspects that the information was lifted at Sacks. You know,
could be anywhere after a month. And I figure, if
you're shopping at SAX in the holiday season, you're putting
some miles on that card. The plastic is getting put
through the paces to melting exactly. That back and forth
(14:16):
teaching is that a lot of friction. So once he
had the card and enough time had passed, he would strike.
He'd hit up a payphone in a hotel lobby and
from there he'd place book orders at rare booksellers and
he'd either pick up the book and say that he
was just a friend doing it as a favor for
the buyer, or he'd have his dad go pick it up.
Oh wow, Yeah, his dad was all about this.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
They did teach him the life.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, oh yeah. His dad loved criming. So but I
don't know if his dad, like I think that Guilkey
brought his dad into criming. But you have to have
some element at home if you can.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, or at least you know, you lean that way.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah, so Gilkey and his dad. They researched the Modern
Library's list of one hundred best novels looking for potential
high value targets. So if you want books that are
or something, they have to have credibility with the people.
So guilty steps were impressive. Autograph copies of Mayor of
Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy, an Invisible and an autograph copy
(15:11):
of Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. Huh. A first edition
of the Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck, which was like,
oh my god, unipper O Sarah, founder of the California Missions.
Another one of.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Those find edition.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Just cursed. First editions of Jack Kerouac's On the Road Tennessee,
Williams the street Car Named Desire, Kay Thompson's Elouise in Paris,
and Mark Twain's Life on the Mississippi first edition. He
was racking him up.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
He's also going for all big names.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
He was, though, about to cross pads with another character
in this tale, a white hat on the horizon, ready
to take down such a vile thief, Ken Sanders, a
man named Ken Sanders.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Future Kentucky chicken owner, Yeah exactly, and Colonel in the army.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Dude was born in nineteen fifty one to some lapsed
Mormons in Salt Lake City, Utah, and early on he
decided the best way to approach religion was to quote
stay the hell away from it. Yes, head, So, Ken
Sanders is more than a non Mormon. Though he's a
book dealer. He's also the head of security for the
Antiquary and Booksellers Association of America a BAA A BAH.
(16:22):
Another thing about Ken Sanders, he's an amateur detective, a
self appointed quote biblio Dick.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Yes that I.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Cannot stress how much I love this, the whole thing.
I'm savoring all the details, so biblio Dick. Sanders. He
noticed a trend. He heard about more and more book
dealers who'd been the victim of bounce checks, fraudulent credit
card charges. Dealers. You know, they report thefts to the
ABAA A BAA in what are called pink sheets, and
they're piling up. So when when he notified the police
(16:51):
of this pattern he was seeing, they just did not care.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Nerds poured a keg on him and like push him
into a locker.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I could, biblio Dick, because it sounds like something Vincent
Price would play like this really confident nerd.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
You just would Would the biblio dick be dissuaded?
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I gotta know, are you I doubt it?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Are you pickling kidding me? So Sanders he sounded the alarm.
He let other book dealers know about the rash of thefts,
and he said, most dealers in rare books are quote
a very small mom and pop operation, So losing five
thousand dollars book is pretty serious adverse economic impact.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, that's huge rrect Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
You can't have that. So the biblio dick he took action.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Oh so he got to like not to shoe leather
but book leather.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Right, he just bounded on up. So Sanders he developed
an online system to track thefts, and he also came
up with a way to get the theft notifications to
other booksellers as quickly as possible, less smart so no
more pink sheet filing stacking up nineties baby. So, with
his data set established, he saw a pattern. There was
one thief who worked pretty much only on the West coast,
(17:54):
using stolen credit cards, and the books were later picked
up by a quote friend. But there was a curious
detas tail in this. The books never resurfaced on any
market for resale, never came up. Let's take a break.
When we come back, we'll continue this developing Guilty Biblio
Dick Cat and Mouse game.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, Hello was.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Aaron, Hello Elizabeth. We're talking biblio dis.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Biblio Dick Modesto's own Charles John, Charles Gilkey Utah's finest
ken Biblio Dick Sanders. I just love saying.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
It's your heart out Montana.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Books are important to both of these fellas, and so
let's look at Sanders' backstory. His love of books and
books selling started at a young age, just like Gilkey.
It started with comic books. He'd sell comic books to
his pals in grade school. His favorite character not Richie
Rich spider Man, like it, Gordon spider Man, dds spider Man.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I love the crime fighting dentist.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Sanders explained quote he had powers, but he was messed up.
What awkward kid wouldn't be attracted to him? God bless My.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Best friend of was a huge Spider Man. J Charlesworth
loved the Spider Man.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I know so much about him just from our bike
riding conversations.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
So this guy biblio Dick. His grandparents would take him
to Bertrand Smith's Acres of Books. You ever heard of Acres? Yeah,
it was a huge independent bookstore in Long Beach, California.
It's no longer, but at the time it was the
largest and oldest family owned secondhand bookstore in California. It
had more than a million books in stock. Yeah, it
(19:49):
sounds like heaven and it was for Sanders. The future
Biblio Dick would talk to the owner Bertrand Smith himself
about Edgar Allan Poe, Maxfield Parrish, Lewis Carroll, which I
love Maxfield Parish art. It's cheesy, but I love it.
I love a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, I love a lot of cheesy.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
So what do you always say?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
What everybody corny?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Everybody corny? When you embrace that, yeah, it's all okay.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, once you realize you hang out, he probably surprised.
You're like, oh, man, I was hanging out these people
I thought were whatever, cool, tough with it, and they're
like they were just because you know why I hung
out with everybody? Everybody corny?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah exactly, So the biblio Dick he corny too. Smith,
the owner of the bookstore. He was impressed by the
boy's curiosity, so he would let him into the rare
book room at the store, and that's where Sanders got
to see first hand stuff like first edition Edgar Allan Poe,
the Rate. And so this is how he recalled it, quote,
(20:46):
I have always been a bookseller. I created Cosmic Aeroplane
Books out of Steve Jones's old hippie head shop in
nineteen seventy five, founded my own publishing company, Dream Garden
Press in nineteen eighty and I've been running Ken Sanders
Rare Bookstown Salt Lake City for the past twenty five years.
My dad joked that when my mom gave birth to me,
I was clutching a book. It's the only world I
(21:07):
ever wished to know. Wow, Yeah, I love this guy.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
So you take that love of books and then a
sense of justice and you get biblio Dick.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, and that that little bit of spider Man. I
can do this, Yes, example don't expect me to, but
I can do this.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
So this is how he said quote. I would certainly
be the last person to deny that I'm obsessed with books.
If you want to say I'm obsessed with book thieves
as well. I probably wouldn't argue that point either.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, fair point.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
So one time Sanders chased a book thief on foot
and then smashed their car window as they were attempting
to drive away. Like he does not play, Ye, Biblio
Dick does not play.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
He's reminding me more and more of my friend exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Sanders, driven by the love of books, justice detecting, he
coordinated a sting. Oh yes, so January twenty ninth, two
thousand and three. Gilky's now thirty four years old.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
He got heel like he would bring in furries to
help him, Like you now, I like this guy. Do
you see the furries who did like the hacking recently,
there's like a team of furries who've been out there
like hacking all these like spaces like then, like shutting
things down and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
They go, they put on a furry costume, like a costume.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, they're like amateur superhero furries. So there, their superhero
costume is a furry.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
They just sweat it up.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Oh yeah, smells bad exactly. But I imagine like that
would be his kind of friends. You know, he could
like call a friend, his friend shows up and like
he's driving over to furry costume in a Honda Civic.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
See. I didn't connect him to the furries, but that
same sense of like righteousness, like and like interest your
own way. Yeah, okay, I'll give it to you. So guilty.
Thirty four years old. January of two thousand and three,
he got on the phone and he called a rare
bookstore in Santa se California, San is So he ordered
(22:50):
up a rare edition of the Grapes of Wrath by
John Steinbeck, six thousand dollars out the door. So guys like, great,
can I get your credit card numbers? Like sure, it's one, two,
three for jan five, Potato six. Cool. Like what are
you going to pick this book up, mister page r
Bookington And he's like, oh, you know what, ship it
to my hotel in Palo Alto. It's like San Jose
(23:13):
and Palo Alto aren't that far apart. Palo Alto is
a lovely town that's been ruined by Facebook. Another tech nonsense.
That's another crime for another time. So ship it to
Palo Alto, he says. Little does he know the bookstore
in santase was working with Sanders the Biblio Dick. So
as soon as they got the call and it matched
(23:33):
all the other Hanky patterns, they alerted him and Biblio
Dick went right to the cops. That credit card number
they ran it stolen, So the cops they go to
the hotel and they wait and Guilkey he showed up
and the police nabbed him. He told him, dude, I'm
nothing but a transient, a mere drifter. Really yeah, yeah, no,
(23:54):
I just made that up.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I am nothing but a mere drifter.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I'm going to go to where there's like police activity
and just walk up to them and be like, I
am nothing. I am a mere transiend I'm mere drifter.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
I want you to promise me that you've ever see
news cameras ever walk up and act like you saw
whatever the crime was, and start giving an impromptu interview
on camera.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Now, my grandfather, oh I want for my birthday, Elizabeth,
did you doing a on camera interview as a character.
My grandfather, when I was growing up, he would call
us at the house and be like, you gotta watch
Channel seven six o'clock news, and he's like, just watch
because he would see them doing like in San Francisco
he'd be you know, they'd be filming something like that,
and he would walk back and forth in the background. Yeah,
(24:36):
And we just watched him walk back and forth, back
and forth, and he'd be like, did you see me?
I'm like totally grand book. That's awesome anyway.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
See, you got a family tradition double I do.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
So I'm a I'm a TRANSI and the moondrifter h
And he's like, someone paid me twenty bucks to just
pick up a book. I don't know what it's about,
but I'll take twenty bucks.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
So the police let him go, but then they followed
him to where he said the exchange point was going
to be, you know, the like I'm supposed to pick
up this book and take it over here to this
Wiener Schnitzel or whatever. No one shows up, so they
arrest him. He gets booked for credit card fraud and
grand theft. And because of this, a search warrant was
issued for his apartment on Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
And where is that, Elizabeth.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
It's a fake island. It's landfill. It's a fake island.
It was built for the nineteen thirty nine Golden Gate
International exposition, the World's Fair. It's in the middle. It's
at the midpoint of the Bay Bridge that connects San
Francisco to its better half. Oakland t I as we
call it, or as I call it, or as no
one calls it. It's attached to a real island. You're
a buena. It was a military base top Island, Traysure,
(25:42):
I call it Treysure Island. It was a giant film
stage at one point. Right now it's been developed out
with housing and little dude had an apartment there. So
when the cops get into his place, he.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Lived in the middle of a bridge on a fake
If you have to take a bridge to leave house
in either.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Direction, whatever you're going to do.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, if you want to go east, you gotta take
the bridge twice.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yep, exactly. So they go in and they find twenty
six confirmed stolen rare books, and then they found way
more rare books that they thought are likely stolen, but
they didn't have evidence for those, so they you know,
left and b where Jesus flaying him. But they got
the twenty six that were like, okay, these were actually
reported stolen, so guilty. He told the police that he
(26:24):
was unemployed, and he had no place of residence, which
is surprising since they were to his apartment.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Since they're in his house.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
And then he threw another supreods all your stuff, you
have a house, so like queen for a day. So
he posted bail for fifteen thousand dollars and so where okay,
where'd you get that? Then off he goes, Yeah, off
he goes. So the cops they keep their fingers crossed
that he's going to show up for his hearing scheduled
(26:52):
for February eighteenth, two thousand and three.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I'm going to take a flyer and say he did not.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Yeah, he did not. He did not. So we have
we have this fantastic tension with Gilkey the Fraudster book
thief and Sanders the Unstoppable biblio dick. Oh yes, I
think we need to add a new character up the
action of attention. Can I give you Alison Hoover Bartlett.
(27:17):
I know Bartlett. She's a journalist. She wrote a book
called The Man Who Loved Books Too Much. Yeah, she
saw this crazy thing playing out and she not only
wrote about it but inserted herself into the story too.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Joists Oh god.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, Bartlett said quote, we were all tenacious hunters. Guilkey
for books, Sanders for thieves, and me for both of
their stories.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Me for the story.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
So Bartlett is sympathetic to Guilkey. She even compares them
to mister Rogers.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Well, they both like sweaters. I suppose they got a
comfortable shoe thing going on.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Railway to a magical world. So here's her assessment of
the biblio dick though quote when people steal from anyone
in the trade, Ken Sanders feels an almost personal attack
on him, and he wants to do anything he can
to catch these guys. He is determined to catch book
thieves as guilty was in stealing the books.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I don't think I think it's a bad read. I
think that he's more determined. You're selling him short totally.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
So Bartlett spent lots of time with Guilkey trying to
understand his motivations. Apparently he used the term quote getting
things for free when he talked about his thefts. I
got this book for free library box, someone handed it
to him. He also complained how he quote didn't want
like to spend his own money. Yeah, no kidding, right,
(28:38):
So me neither kid, But what you know, this is life.
Bartlett figured that guilty quote actually stole for love the
love of rare books. That is so apparently rare book
theft is actually more common than fine art theft.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Oh yeah, more access.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Yeah, and forgery is also popular, which makes sense. So
like there aren't crazy minting marks and seals on old books,
and the materials aren't too hard to source, like if
you can find old stock of stuff like but when
I talk about the forgery, here's an example. The Great
Gatsby without a dust jacket, like a first edition no
dust jacket is worth one hundred and fifty bucks. Throw
(29:15):
an original dust jacket on that puppy and you're looking
at four thousand dollars. So thieves are going to want
to conjure up some old looking books.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
You've got to stop getting rid of my dust jackets.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
That's what I'm missing the moral of the story.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
And also what about when I put in the fake
signature autograph from the author? Should I be doing that?
Is that good?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
You just got to want to source older ink. You
want to make sure that you're using the time contemporary materials.
Just it's easy. So back to guilty, he eventually went
to trial. He did show up. He didn't plead out
during his trial. You know, he claimed to be innocent,
but at the same time he's telling everything to bartlet
So over the course of a year after the sting.
(29:55):
He then eventually pleads guilty to conspiracy, grand theft, identity theft,
credit card theft, and possession of stolen property.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Did they just run out of charges? Well, that's all
we got. The book is done, bro.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
He stole like about two hundred thousand dollars worth of books,
two hundred thousand dollars with the books mostly inner around
San Francisco between nineteen ninety nine and two thousand and three.
So he gets sentenced to eighteen months in San Quentin Prison. Yeah,
which is a pretty that has a pretty robust library.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
As far as that's actually, I've.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Been in San Quentin before. Yeah, it's you know, looks
like a prison from the thirties. It's crazy views outside,
spectacular right on the bay. Did you know that there's
actually a college located inside the prison.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
I did know that, Elizabeth, because you told me.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
It's called Mount tamil Pias College. It's an independent, nonprofit,
actual college in a prison. It's not connected. It's like
not a state college. The professors are all volunteers from
places like Callan Stanford's amazing, so look it up. Guilkey,
he cooled his heels in sand Do.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Have a podcast?
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, Houseley, So Gilkey, he's in San Quentin. He gets
released on parole less than two years later. And what
did you do when he got out?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Started stealing books?
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Bee?
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Hey Bartlett? It was it.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
What's that girl?
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
So Bartlett, I couldn't stop thinking about you.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Bartlett asks him, like, what are you going to do
for a job, and he says, quote work. Actually they
do have an opening at a bookstore. Like, oh, your horror,
you nave So they did go to a bookstore together though, okay,
and not for a job.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Search a date.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
There is a date, sharn close. I want you to
picture it. Yes, you are John Crichton, owner of the
brick Row Bookshop in San Francisco. It's founded in nineteen fifteen.
The brick Row one of the oldest antiquarian book businesses
in the whole United States. Today it's quiet and you're
behind the counter organizing a new batch of small Victorian
(31:55):
books you picked up recently. Charming little tomes no bigger
than your hand, each with beautifully embossed art new vague covers.
You have KCSM, the local jazz station playing quietly in
the background. The bell dings as the door opens, and
two people enter your shop, A shorter, balding man and
a pleasant looking woman Guilty and Bartlett for those of
(32:15):
us in the know, you're currently not in the know
Zarin aka John Crichton. So these two they chat quietly
to each other as they enter the store and begin
to look around. The guy looks familiar, but you can't
really place him. You ask if they need any help.
They tell you they're just browsing. Where do you know
that guy from it's driving you crazy? Does he live
in the neighborhood? But there's like something about him that's
(32:38):
giving you.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Bad vibes, say my bowling league in the seventies.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
But then that's it. You got it. A couple of
years ago you sold a copy of Hardy's The Mayor
of Casterbridge to a guy. Of course, great sale, twenty
five hundred dollars. Then a month after that you got
a call someone was complaining of a twenty five hundred
dollars charge on their credit card, even though they'd never
been to brick rope. For that is the castor bridge
(33:03):
guy man f that guy, you think, so you begin
to follow the pair around. Gilkey loudly complains about rare booksellers.
He moans about how the first editions he bought weren't
first editions after all, how books get described as having
dust jackets but they arrive naked. He goes on and
on about how antiquarian booksellers are all cheaters and liars.
(33:25):
The woman with him is like cringing. She looks like
she's dying inside. You're made to tough stuff. You don't
survive in the cutthroat, scheming, ultra violent, rare book world
without having some grit. It's you just keep following him around,
waiting for him to make a mistake, try and pocket
a book or something. That's when you're gonna go full
(33:45):
John Wick on the guy. He doesn't know about the
network of book assassins that you have, or quick staple
the upstairs filled with tattooed telephone operators waiting to put
a price on this guy's head. Or maybe that's all
just fantasy. Maybe whatever, you're tailing guy and you're enjoying
the jazz playing in the background. Then finally they leave
the store, the bell on the on the door bidding them,
(34:07):
I do you get on the phone? Who are you
gonna call? Kenny Sanders Biblio dick himself. Let's take a break.
When we come back, we'll see how this butting friendship
between the journalist and the thief develops. Welcome, what's up, hi, Bartlett? Yes,
(34:43):
he went with Gilkey to the scene in one of
his crimes, and he peacocked around the place, rubbing it
in dude's face. In your face. Darn ever, he rubbed
it in your face. So when Sanders found out about
this visit to brick Row, he was pissed. But he
was so pissed he dashed off a strongly worded email
to Bartlett.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Downed a glass of pepsi, and said that man has
it coming.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Quote, I don't want to hear about your sick games.
Ever again, he's not having it. So Bartlet, though, just
kept going deeper and deeper into the enigma that was Guilkey.
She visited with his family and was told by his
mother quote, I mean it's innocent. Maybe he was just
wandering around or looking around with a book, and he
must have forgot about it and then he got caught.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Ma'am, mom, come on, come.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
On, missus Gilkey. She showed Bartlet Gilkey's bedroom quote. His
shoes were neatly lined up on the floor, and artwork
he had collected hung on the walls. I made a
move to leave, but his mother motioned toward the closet,
which she opened. See how he keeps his things neat,
she said. And look more books, Yes, more books, stacks
(35:54):
and stacks of them. Their spines faced the back of
the closet, as if in hiding. This seemed the most private,
most intimate corner of Guilkey's room. But instead of looking
inside to see if I recognize any of the books
he had stolen, I turned away. I was afraid of
what I might find if I drew the books from
the pile, what degree of crime and what degree of
responsibility I might bear in knowing the books were there.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I'm less of an investigative journalist and more of an accomplice. Yeah. Wow,
So so he's living with his mom basically in his
little boy lifestyle, and his mom I want to see
his room, she like. I made the bed so please
forgive this, and then yeah, the whole like, do you
want to see my boy's room? And then she's say
the books all turned backwards, no spines forward, and she's like,
I don't want to touch the book pile. What did
(36:38):
she glean from this trip?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
A book? She wrote a book from it. Yeah, So
Guilkey and Bartlett they keep meeting for interviews over the
course of three years.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Wow and slow dating totally.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Not speak dating. Per book reviewer Joel Hyde quote, it
is easy to blame Bartlett for not cooperating more in
the apprehension of a thief, for embarking instead the fool's
errand of trying to understand his heart. It is easy
to blame her for blurring the distinction between the desire
to possess books and the desire to steal them, not
to mention the distinction between the desire to possess books
(37:12):
and the love of them. And then he goes on.
Every profession affords ethical dilemmas, and being reminded of how
difficult and necessary it is to struggle with those dilemmas
is of some value. It just isn't anywhere near as
valuable as it would be to get back books that
were stolen from.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Us exactly, so you can do both. You can return
the books and then wonder.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, Guilkey, he'd been hard to catch because rather than
resell the pieces he acquired, he hoarded them for himself.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
And they never had the markets again.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Right, So it's totally true. According to biblio Dick, these
are iconic, valuable books that everybody knows and they're very distinctive.
But I could never find any trace in the marketplace
of them resurfacing or being sold, so it's not this
is like, oh, he's living on this.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Guilkey confessed to Bartlett that what he really wanted was
a rare book collection that would be worth millions all
to himself.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Totally. He's like that collector in the Twilight Zone, or
his glasses break, or he's got all the books.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
It's like, yeah, so Bartlett, She wrote that Guilkey was
obsessed with quote the image of an English gentleman with
a grand library, and Bartlett said, quote he told me
he wanted to have a fine gentleman's library, and he'd
have a big oak desk with a globe on it,
and he would wear a smoking jacket. People would look
at his book collection and see that this was a
man of culture, an aeradype man, and that's what really
(38:40):
drove him.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
So he wanted to be Thomas Jefferson politics. He wanted
to be Richie rich You want to Ben Franklin. He
wanted to be one of those guys with a big He.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Wanted the world to see him as cultured and debonair.
And that's what he thought would be his ideal self.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Books that smelled of leather.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
And so, according to Bartlett, quote, he has the love
of books, but he also has a love of what
the ownership of books.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Says, Yes, what it means to others.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Yeah, just like collectors talk about their books on the
shelves is kind of a memoir that reflects on who
they are and what their interests are. Sure, Guilty's no different,
he told Bartlett. Quote, there's a sense of admiration you're
going to get from other people. So he's doing it,
you know, for four others.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, collecting books that no one ever will see. But
he's doing it so that he could imagine that other
people would find him more interesting, his imagination of others
would perceive them.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
So she said that Guilty was trying to build an
identity for himself, and he was trying to keep it
in the world. Yeah, but guilty said quote I never
take books from libraries, yet many people do and then
sell them at large profits. That would be stealing.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
I think they're both stealing. I think you can qualify.
It's not like only one of them can be stealing.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
So most of his thefts remain unrecovered, and they're believed
to be in a storage unit somewhere in northern California.
Let's get hunting, let's figure this out.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
You could probably find it. I would bet on you.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I could probably find it. So the full extent of
his thefts and the exact whereabouts the whereabouts of all
the books he stole totally unknown. Some think that the
mysterious storage unit contains not just rare books, but like autographs, prints, maps, stamps,
comic books, like Hollywood memorabilia, coins, maybe Guyeri's Lamba Yeah yeah,
(40:25):
and like since there isn't a.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Set on like basically a lottery ticket, and people know
that he's alive and it's somewhere, yeah, I feel for him.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah. So there's not a specific list of actual items
that have been stolen. And are believed to be in
the unit, So even if they knew where it was,
they don't have probable cause for a warrant. A judge
would never sign up. H Bartlett had all this access
to Guilkey, and Sanders, who'd never actually met him, had
a request. He told Bartlett, quote, ask him to tell
(40:54):
you the location of his storage unit where he hides
the books. It must be near his home in Modesto.
Gives me a clue. Guilty refused. He heard that request,
was like no.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, He's like, are you kidding? Whatever reason I did all.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
This, He's like, whatever, girl, Yeah, you're not mad.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
You're not my mom. Only she can make me make
my shoes be straight.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
I'm picturing Sanders biblio dick in his like film noir
office with theories and evidence and red string on the walls,
slamming his hand down on the desk when he hears this,
and then the furry at the desk and go for yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
You got it.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
It's like, I'm so close to like triangulating the location.
Let me just call Elizabeth and we'll work on this.
It's amazing that it is a much better story, right.
I just imagine like a big lavender tale.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Yeah, exactly, like an NFL mascot that's sexier. Totally to
that Directionndy, what you want.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Well, this is what biblio Dick has to say.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
Quote.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
He has this irrational belief that he deserves to have
a fine library, and since he can't afford it, we
who are in the trade, who have all of these
lovely books, deserve to just give them to him, And
since we won't, it's his or ordained right to steal
them from us. He's a dirty little book thief and
there's nothing romantic about it. There's nothing noble about him.
He might have a passion for books, but his passion
(42:09):
is for thievery. As far as I'm concerned, he's the
man who loved to steal books too much. And that's
where you good. Then he's a dirty little book thief.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
He ain't no Robin Hood no.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
According to Bartlett, quote, he has absolutely no remorse for
his crimes. He told me the details of how he
went about it, which I described in the book, but
he feels that it was his right to take the books.
During a phone conversation, he told Bartlett that it's like
he feels like he's sixty percent wrong and forty percent right,
and that well, he said that like book dealers are
(42:43):
like keeping these books from the public, which like you
with shoving them.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
In them from the public. They're offering them for sale
to the public.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
These books.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
One point, he said, quote, how am I supposed to
build my collection unless I'm like this multi millionaire?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Well, has he ever met a thought that actually followed
through on? Or did you always stop in the middle
and make a turn?
Speaker 4 (43:06):
Apparently not so.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
During two thousand and nine, a bookseller in Canada got
in touch with Sanders. She'd sold a book for five
hundred dollars, but the check was bad. Name on the check,
John Charles Gilkey, whoa chase was on He's back Fall
twenty ten. Gilkey gets arrested.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Oh so it wasn't like a copycat doing a little nod.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
No, he was just put his actual name on a check.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
That was like a loopan move. He like blaming someone else.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
My god, that would be perfect Fall twenty ten. He
gets arrested, not for kiting checks, stealing credit card numbers
so that he get like a first edition of Ojy's
if I did it. No, he was arrested for threatening
to burn down a print gallery in San Francisco after
the manager declined to sell him an item.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
See I'm telling you the boy I wrist.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
I was going to say, the boy ain't right, Like
he just burned it all down. December fifteenth, twenty ten,
he gets arrested again in San Francisco trying to steal
two antique maps. Okay, I don't know what became of
those arrests. July of twenty eleven, John Waite the security
chair of a baa Antiquarian Booksellers Association of America. He
(44:14):
posted a circulation please be aware that convicted fraudster and
thief John Gilkey is operating once again, likely out of
northern California. And like the alarms went off and there
were people like, oh my god, put my pants on,
I got to do this on the phone. Totally, there's
a hustle, there's like network lights loading their weapons the continent. Totally.
(44:35):
That's all I keep saying with this. Antiquarian Booksellers is
like a complete John Wick universe in my head, but
not as ultra violent.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Okay, sure for you whatever for me.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Cartoon violence, Yeah, I love cartoon violence. A comic book
dealer in New York State is his latest victim. In
addition to rare books, he's moved on to print stamp
comics like.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
She worked on LPs. Go Vinyl Right.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
He was arrested late last year in San Francisco following
a parole violation, but he was released after he or
someone posted seventy five thousand dollars bail.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Bartlet.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
This is this is the detail that's driving me nuts.
He's driving me modesto nuts. He's not selling the books
for cash. His family isn't rich, Bartlett. She wasn't there
for the first bail out, and she's not rich. Who's
bailing him out?
Speaker 2 (45:28):
I'm telling you it's Bartlett's my guest.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Do you think so?
Speaker 2 (45:31):
I think she loves it over that three years, but
a time I think she's like started to see something
in him. Maybe she's looking for book too. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
But he's skipped bail, of course, and there's an outstanding
warrant for his arrest and an ongoing San Francisco police investigation.
Really yeah, good luck with that. He basically disappeared, but
he's still active. So John Gilkey, if you're listening, you
are welcome to come on the podcast and tell your story.
(45:59):
We promise not to call Biblio Dick, although I probably will.
She will because amazing for her too. Biblio Dick, if
you want to come to hook it up, I want
to hear all your ridiculous crime story. I git one
hear your side, Gilkey, hit us up online. Let us
know you're still alive. Tell us what you're going to
steal next. Tell me where the where do you? Where's
(46:19):
your storage in case you need to ride? Do you
need to ride to your storage studio?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Yeah? I mean I'm gonna be a modesta for a game.
We can go nuts.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
I can take you anywhere, just I'll drive you there
as Aaron. What's your ridiculous takeaway?
Speaker 4 (46:32):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
For this one, I think it's got to be that
Bartlett thought that she would learn anything from this hanging
out with him for all these years. Because everything the
quotes you told me and what we've learned about him,
you're telling of his story, I did learn something. I
don't think we learned anything from her version, because it
seems like her perspective was kind of skewed, if that
(46:54):
makes sense. So I feel it's kind of like ridiculous
that she spent so much time around a person that
she should have just been dating, and then apparently she
got a book out of it, you know, So I'm like, oh,
you missed.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Yeah, it's fat. I'm fast.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
You're ridiculous takeaway. Thank you for I did not try
that sometimes, Okay, I will.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
I'm fascinated by her and her getting sucked into this.
You know, it makes for a good story. Biblio Dick
hero of all heroes.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Oh, I love me a good Jack Mormon. I grew
up in a town with a lot of Mormons, and
the ones who are ex Mormons fascinating. Well, a lot
of strength of character going against all of your family
and your culture. And really I often like.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
This guy's like so dedicated to books and literature, and
his investment in not just the value of the books
is like you know, commerce, but what they.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Mean and you know to others, not just to him.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Right, And when we're talking about like our top fives,
you think about what those books mean to us, and
that if you could have like first editions of those
or signed copies, how important that would be to you
and how connected you'd be because of the stories that
these writers have crafted. So if you want a first
edition signed driftwood.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
That just about a second. If I had the first edition.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Signed paperback has the better cover, I always go with
the paperback on that one.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I would be willing to steal one of those. You know,
do you have one? Don't answer that, don't ask.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
Well, that's all I have. You can find us online
at ridiculous crime dot com. There's merch there. I heard
sometimes no, sometimes yes. We're also at Ridiculous Crime on
Twitter and Instagram. I quit Twitter? What I deactivated my account?
Speaker 2 (48:35):
You did?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
I did?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
You know up his.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I'm not as brave as you do.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Not email?
Speaker 3 (48:41):
Do it? Do not email ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com.
And then, but please god, why aren't you people leaving
talkbacks on the iHeart app?
Speaker 2 (48:51):
We do like those. We'll start playing with you.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
I ask very little of the root is and I
give so much and all I wanted some talkback?
Speaker 2 (48:59):
You have the woman a pete.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
Uh, yeah, that's it. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth
Dutton and z Aaron Burnett, produced and edited by First
Edition Dave Cousten's Who Research is by Marissa handbound copy
of Leaves of Grass Brown and Andrea Brahmstoker's Dracula printed
(49:23):
on a silver dagger song Sharpened Hear. The theme song
is by Thomas Original Nancy Comic in a plastic sleeve
Lee and Travis Moneyball with no dust jacket. Totally naked,
totally legal, totally cool. Dutton Executive producers are Sergeant at
Arms of the A B A A. Ben Bollen and
Shadow Chancellor of the A B A A. Noel Brown.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Dus Crime Say It One More Time.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio four More Podcasts,
my heart Radios, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows,
Hosts And Creators
Zaron Burnett
Elizabeth Dutton
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