How To Winnaretta Friends and Influence Culture: The Singer Sewer Heiress

Winnaretta Singer inherited her father's massive sewing machine fortune, but she still had to marry an aristocrat to be part of high society. One big problem - she was a lesbian! Fortunately she found the perfect match in Prince Edmond de Polignac. They both loved music, art, and best of all - he was gay too! Together they threw stacks of money at artists and composers whose names we still know today.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Summertime and Georgia. I'm not I've been in Georgia since
I was twelve, and I'll tell you the two things
I like least in this world are humidity and boiled peanuts.
So I don't know what I'm doing here for so long.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
The first one is, you know, every man for himself,
but boiled peanuts are good. You need to get your
shit together.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Okay, I'll say I will say this for boiled peanuts
and the people who love them out there. I can
totally understand if you like boiled peanuts. If you're someone
who would take, you know, a box from Amazon, soak
it in some hot water, add a little bit of
sea water for that salt. Actually not seawater, because that's
too much flavor. Just salty, just salty, soggy cardboard.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Whatever. Man, how you have the cage in style like
there's flavored a boiled peanut.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Sure, but your base is still something that is known
for its crunchiness. You know what, We're made soggy?

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Where can we fight? Everyone?

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Give it the first big ridiculous romance fight to have
a fight about on air right here. I'm ready. I'm
not going to give in on this one.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, at least it's something that doesn't really matter.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Well, some would say that it does. There's certain circles
in which I will not express that opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Very true, you could get harmed physically.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
It's tough, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
I think the boiled peanuts were a natural evolution of
the humidity problem. Everything is just a little wet, so
you have to get used to liking it that way
and in fact make it a virtue.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Let's lean into the fact that everything's a little hot
and soggy around here and do it with nuts.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
I mean, that's better than complaining about it. Twenty four
to seven, which make it? Are you talking about hot
and wet?

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Who would do that? Well, summertime in Georgia, you know,
we're we're making it. It's all right. We've got a
roof over our heads, our air conditioning kind of works,
and we've we've we've been in a worse situations, so
we're doing all right. We're just sweating a little.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Bit, hopefully same to y'all. Just a little sweat, but nothing,
nothing too bad.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
The problem is when we start recording, obviously we have
to turn off all the fans and the AC and
everything for sound purposes. So you know, being a podcaster,
it's a tough life. It's pretty that the conditions in
which we work, I would say, not far off from
like miners, oh wow, or.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Soldiers yeah, very trench like.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah, oh very much. So I would say.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
They're going to write an ode to us any day.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Now, hang on, the third pillow under my ass is
a little crooked, so let me just okay, I've got it.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
That third pillows really giving me that trench.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
But just like coal miners, it's my point. So hey everybody, Hey,
welcome back to the show. So excited to have you
as always. Yeah, yeah, you're right as I am always
excited to have you.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
It really is.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
It's not like specific to this episode.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
No, it's just very exciting. Yeah, people listening to any
word you say.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Oh my god. If you told anytime she told sixteen
year old me that people are just going to shut
up and listen to you talk for an hour, oh
my god, I'd be like, yeah, but do I have
to share the mic with anybody?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Wow? Sixteen year old you?

Speaker 1 (03:28):
You'd be like yeah, but yeah. He'd be like yeah,
but she's hot. Oh and he'd be like all right.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
So we're ringing endorsement sixteen year old.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
He didn't understand. He didn't know it works out.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
He didn't know me yet.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, no, he did not. He was dreaming of you.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Oh I'm your dream girl.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Look there's you know that. My dreams have a lot
of girls, but you are the standout character.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Oh. Thanks, I guess I'll take that. Speaking of a
lot of girls.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Speaking a lot of girls.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, we got we got our subject today also dreamed
of many women. Yeah, we're finally getting to this. We
got real sidetracked off this topic right to tell you
about Isaac Singer and his multiple families in New York,
his like four or five families, then million children.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
We were gonna tell the Winneretta Singer story, and then
you found her father, Isaac Singer, the creator of the
Singer Sewing Machine. Check that episode out if you hadn't
heard it yet, because it's a great predecessor.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Who really is. But now it is time to get
to our listener. Suggestion from Seth bats at Seth Sculptures
on ig of Winoretta Singer. This was Isaac's twentieth child
that he had with his second actual real wife that
he actually married, Isabella boy year and Whinneretta had two

(05:00):
case marriages and multiple lesbian love affairs, besides using her
fortune to fund and commission work from like now iconic musicians, painters,
and writers. Wow, they wouldn't have been anything without her.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Wow. Okay, so let's get.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Into Winnaretta singer who is also known as the Princess.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Let's go hey, their friends come listen.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
Well, Eli and Diana got some stories to tell. There's
no matchmaking, a romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relations ship,
a love. There might be any type of person at all,
an abstract concept or a concrete wall. But if there's
a story where the second glance ridiculous romance.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
A production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Before we get into this, I think this is relevant.
There's just this conversation on in like the theater world
about whether or not because somebody just got an Egot designation, Yeah,
which is the Emmy, Grammy Oscar designation. They won the
Tony just because they funded a Broadway show. We're not

(06:06):
in it or designed it in any way or creatively
in control at all. Right, they just funded it. So
people are questioning whether or not that counts because they're
like Oh, you did was pay for it, so.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
You didn't really you're not a creator.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
On the other hand, if there's no money, there's no project, right,
So there was kind of a big debate about that,
and I think that's very relevant to Winneretta's story.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
I don't know if this funder had any input during
the show, but they at least had the mind an
impulse to say this is the one, this will work.
I'm choosing this show over others.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, and if there is something to be said for
the eye of that's good, even if nobody else sees it.
There's something there that I think will hit with people
whatever reason. So I don't know. That's just something I've
I've been thinking about a lot since researching Wineretta.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Since she is a money person for the arts. I
will say that if we really want to dig into
this debate, I am willing for a wealthy producer to
come in and fund some of our projects and we
will come back to you all and give a full
report as to whether or not they deserve, you know,
any sort of recognition for that, and I'll tell you

(07:16):
right now they do. So if you have a bunch
of money and want some recognition for anything we do.
You know, shoot us an email. That's right, We're ready
for you.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
At gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah. Thanks to iHeartRadio for this one so far.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Huh. But we're open to other sponsors.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
We've got a lot more projects ready to go and
the only thing we're missing is the money.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, we need a win Aretta of our own. So
win Aretta Singer was born in Yonkers, New York in
eighteen sixty five. Now, after the Civil War ended, the
Singer family moved to Paris until the outbreak of the
Franco Prussian War in eighteen seventy and then they moved
to Devonshire and Isaac bought the giant Old Way mansion

(07:59):
and he built the Wigwam on that estate. That's that
building with like the fully equipped theater where he had
the full circus come through and all that stuff that
we kind of talked about in the Isaac Singer episode.
But that is where Winneretta kind of grew up for
the first part of her life. Okay, pretty dope place
for a kid to grow up. Then, in eighteen seventy five,
Isaac Singer died and we told you then too that

(08:21):
his second wife Isabella Boyere remarried to a Dutch virtuoso
violinist named Victor Rupsat in eighteen seventy nine. Okay, now,
this guy was the son of a shoemaker, but he
pretended to be nobility to help him get gigs, basically
a con man for music gigs. But his fake nobility
became real in eighteen eighty one when he was gifted

(08:43):
the title of Duc.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
De Campos els Now using Isabella's money, which of course
she inherited when Isaac died. All that singer sower money.
Victor collected rare stringed instruments, including this one called Vitomps
Guarini Jasu, which is built in seventeen forty one and
it's considered to be one of the finest violins ever made.

(09:07):
I'm so fascinated by these individual instruments having names. It's
like it's like fantasy character swords. Yeah, you know, Oh,
this is Sting, this is gleam Dring, this is the
sar Jess. That's so cool that this one thing, you know,
you could track its movements around the world. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, have you ever seen the red violin?

Speaker 1 (09:28):
I haven't seen it, but I remember that I.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Think it's about a stratavarius. It it's also like it's
the other best instrument ever is that one violin? But
it's so funny to think about how these fine instruments
they're so good that you can't play them, Like you're
not supposed to ever touch that.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
I ever play that.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
But they are apparently like sound amazing.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
So I'm like like putting plastic on your furniture, like exactly,
if you keep it, you're you're eliminating its purpose by
keeping it pristine, you.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Keep all your action figures in the box. Come on,
I gotta play game.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Well, this particular violin is now also one of the
most expensive instruments in the world. It was last sold
to an anonymous bidder for sixteen million dollars. I gotta
say it's smart to say anonymous, because I got a
problem with you if you dropped sixteen million on one
violin but you can't even touch Come.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
On, apparently it's gifted to like this top violin player
for her use for the rest of her life.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Oh okay, why they bought it?

Speaker 2 (10:27):
I guess I would be like, damn, I must be
a violinist. They want me to play this or at
least hold onto it, because I don't think she's allowed
to play it.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Victor and Isabella they turned the grand salon of their
Parisian mansion into a musical salon, and some of the
best musicians of the day would come over and put
on concerts right there and there. They used to have
those living room concerts, you know, sixteen to thirty people
would come in and sit down with their little fans
and golf clap for the most beautiful music probably anyone's

(10:57):
ever heard in Western culture. Now. Winneretta, of course, Isabella's daughter,
the last daughter of Isabella and Isaac Singer. She never
received a formal music education, but she was passionate about music,
and she attended most of the concerts that her mom
and stepdad held in this musical salon. And for her
thirteenth birthday, she requested a performance of Beethoven's Opus one

(11:22):
thirty one string Quartet as a gift. And that, my friends,
is the gift of a child of privilege. Okay, I
was like thirteen, Like when I was thirteen, I wanted
a forty five dollars Lego set, and that was asked
a you.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Know, well, she already had a pony.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
So yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
But a lot of people point this out as like
showing like what a musical mind she really had, because
I guess the Opus one thirty one, or all of
Beethoven's later work at the time was considered kind of incomprehensible.
So like the average listener like they were like, this
is complicated and artistic. Oh wow, So it was like
a sign of what a great year she had that

(12:00):
she liked. This was her favorite quartet and I really
liked it.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Or she was a show off and with music nerd
and she's like, actually I like Beethoven's later's Probably she's
like a lot of people think it's too complicated, but
I prefer it.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Oh you like O to joya cute So a fair
weather fan, that's what.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
I'm hearing, fair Weather Beethoven.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Hey, they all had their heyday, but all was not
well in the roops at home. Oh no, Because many
sources refer to Victor's quote unquote violent behavior. Oh though
not many details are given, so unclear if you just
was like someone who shouted a lot, if he actually
hit people, if there was any kind of sexual element, no, no,

(12:49):
no details, just that he was kind of a violent man.
But it seems safe to say that Winneretta suffered some
kind of abuse in this household, because as soon as
she came of age at twenty one years old and
was able to control her inheritance, she took her money
and ran. Yeah, she got the buck out of there. Unfortunately,
she could run as far as she wanted because Isaac
Singer left her a little over nine hundred thousand dollars,

(13:13):
which is hers from here twenty four point eight million
dollars today. Geez, she couldn't really go anywhere she wanted.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
I'd be happy enough if I had nine hundred thousand
dollars already, but it's actually work twenty five times that.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Seriously, Manipulation's a bitch, let me tell you.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Well, look these rich teenage girls with their Beethoven quartets
on their birthdays and then just oh, here's twenty five
million dollars. Geez.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
All right, Well, but even a woman of privilege had
a limited life at this time. Whenneretta went to Paris,
she set herself up. She bought this large hotel to
live in, but she knew there was not really a
place in society for an unmarried woman. Okay, she's just
the maid, right, nobody wants her around, right, right.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
And she also.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Didn't want just any old place in society. We're talking
about a privileged woman here. She wanted to be part
of the aristocratic society of arts. And that's kind of
one thing that your money cannot buy you unless you,
you know, give a large sum to the king or
something like that. But you know, that's kind of an
inherited thing. So she said, what do I gotta do?

(14:26):
What do I get it? Marriage boom, the solution to
so many problems in the ridiculous Romance universe. And so
Whenneretta accepted the very first man to ask her to
marry him, and that was a prince named Louis Vilfred
d'escay mont Belliard.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Wow, Okay, lot of name. Yeah, he's got enough names
that you.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Know he's can borrow one of these.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah. But on their wedding night, according to Sylvia Kahan's
biography of Winneretta, which is called Music's Modern Muse, this
guy entered his bride's bedroom only to find Winneretta perched
on top of the bureau swinging an umbrella, yelling quote,
if you touch me, I'll kill you, damn, which I'd

(15:08):
be like, well, okay, I'm sorry. I thought we were
getting married here. I didn't realize I was under violent.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Threat sad I do earlier?

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Huh, I guess you do not.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
I'm picturing him in like a frog, you know, dressing
gown sure, feeling himself. Yeah, now he's got a fight
on his hand.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Married this beautiful woman. She said yes so quickly when I.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Proposed to her, I thought she was in love with me.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
So, you know, kind of an inauspicious start to this
blissful married life. But Winneretta wasn't kidding here. She was
a lesbian and she had zero interest in, you know,
whatever Louis had going on under those dressing gowns. There's
not really a lot of detail out there about Louis himself,
but it's likely that the two of them led just

(15:56):
completely separate lives. Yeah, total marriage of what he called
marriage of convenience.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
But as she was now the Princess de guy mont Balliard,
she established her own first musical salon, and she hosted
orchestral concerts ell as well as chamber music and composers
like Forret or Chabrier or Dandee and Moore performed there
at her own salon, and this helped them find fans

(16:24):
and patrons. She also rented a palazzo in Venice, and
she sent Forret there for a vacation, and that's where
he started composing. Sank Melodi de Venice now Whinneretta also
studied painting, and she was very accomplished. She studied with
Felix Baret and spent time in Eduard Manet's studio. Wow, yeah,

(16:46):
one of the greats.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Apparently he never really took students, he only had one
like formal student. But I guess she went to his
studio and yeahs you know, but it wasn't anything like
he took her under his winger.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
You can watch it, no questions.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
You are lucky to be in my prison.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Can I audit that class.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
One auditing of Mane studio people?

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Well? In fact, when Aeretta did so well, she exhibited
her work at the Chicago World's Fair in eighteen ninety three,
but according to Palazzo Contorini Polgna dot com, her paintings
were even mistaken for mayonnaise creation. She really must have
learned quite a bit from watching him. A funny story.

(17:28):
Some of my paintings have been misconstrued for mayonnaise.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Oh wait a minute, in the past, hang on.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Blaba, white paint. Gross, it's deep, it's tangy.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Well, of course this marriage could not last, all right,
I'm sure Old Louis from the moment she started trying
to swing an umbrella at him, trying to get out
of this.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
So in eighteen ninety two, the Vatican annulled the scay
Montbelliard marriage since it had never been consummated. But you know,
we all know by now that society, especially at that point,
hates a divorcee. Right, So when Aretta kind of lost
her place in society that she had been building so much,
particularly in the elevated circles that she'd been moving in,

(18:10):
she was sort of a persona and on grad it
was very scandalous, interesting forced. So near the end of
the year, her friends Count Robert de Montesquieu, who is
like a well known dandy and es fete. He was
one hundred percent the model for Marcel Proust's dandy Baron
de Charlis. In this book In Search of Lost Time,

(18:30):
the remembrance of things passed depending on which translation. You see,
he might even have inspired Dorian Gray Oscar Wilde story
and Gray, oh kidding, butte that's how well known of
like a dandy he was. Everybody was like, this guy's
really handsome, very effeminate, kind of mean perfect, this is
my guy?

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Did he did he inspire Dorian Gray because he was
like Paul Rudd and he just never seemed to age,
never aged, And so Oscar Wilde is like, man, this
guy year after year was going on Oscar wild like,
I bet there's a painting in the basement somewhere.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Hella pakmarks ravage well. Count Robert Demontesque and his cousin,
the Countess Elizabeth Grefeu, approached her, urging Winneretta to remarry.
They were like, girl, all you got to do to
get yourself re established is to find you a good man, right,
And they even had the guy in mind. It was

(19:24):
a friend of theirs name Prince Edmund de Paulaignac. Now
he's twenty years older than Winneretta, but he had a
lot to recommend himself as a husband. Okay, first of all,
he's a prince, so Winneretta could have that title. She's
looking a princess. Secondly, he was broke. He had lost
a lot of money on some get rich quick schemes,
so he really needed a rich wife. Okay, so he'd

(19:46):
be yeah, he'd be open to it. Thirdly, and best
of all, Edmund de Paulaignac was gay.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
Oh my god, Count Robert.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
May even has been a former lover of his.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
Oh, the perfect husband, The perfect husband. Winneretta's perfect husband
is a lot different than most people. She's like, Okay,
he's a prince, A lot of people are good with that.
And he's broke, and he's gay. That's the the all
three boxes I was looking for. Check check, check.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
A rich lesbian woman has a different checklist than most
of us, I suppose.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, Winneretto could just put her umbrella away and.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Relax, you know. Yeah, he was not coming after her.
So Winneretta and Edmund were married in eighteen ninety three,
and she became the Princess da Polignac, and these two
actually had an amazing marriage. Edmund was a talented composer.
He'd actually won several prizes, and he was also very
passionate about music and art and literature, just like Winneretta.

(20:41):
So they found really a kindred spirit. Like you know,
you like art, I like art, You like music, I
like music. You like people of your same sex, I
like people like this.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Was great, This is all working out so well.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
So they ended up really kind of loving each other
in that way, and they support or to each other constantly.
I mean, that's you got to say, that's a really
good partnership.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Absolutely, if you can call it a bond of true love.
Even though it's fully platonic, they were truly in love
with one another. They got each other really well. So
this was kind of a masterpiece in matchmaking from Robert
de montesque. Great job, Robert.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
I wonder if there's something there where, let's say they're
out having their little flings, their little same sex flings
on the side or whatever, is there still a little
bit of jealousy. It's like, even though we're not sexually bonded,
I just don't like you spending intimate time with someone else.
You and I are right thing.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
Right, listen. I don't think with these two, but yes,
it definitely happens. There's a few of her lovers that
were married to gay men as well. In like Mariage
blanc or lavender marriages halls a lot because they were
each other's beards essentially. Where Yeah, they would get jealous
of one another all the time, even though I'm not
interested in what you got, but that's my wife or

(21:56):
that's my husband. Yeah, you know, I still feel a
sense of possession. Very interesting people.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
I mean, jealousy is really complicated.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
We'll get into that a little bit.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah. Yeah, So Winneretta produced Edmund's concerts multiple times. All
of his compositions got to be heard. But the first
thing they did was set up one of those, of course,
incredible artistic salons in their Parisian music room and they
would debut performances of works for musicians like Debussy, Ravel,
Fouret and Chabrier, just huge names in French composition. Beautiful

(22:30):
little concerts.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
I would totally go to one of these nights.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Oh yeah. They also would have authors like Marcel Proust
and crossover alert Oscar Wilde and Collette would come by
all the time and give little readings of their works. Amazing.
Also additional crossover alert, the Polignacs hosted our friend BDSM

(22:53):
connoisseur Percy Granger, who dedicated some of his folk song
compositions to winner Retta.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
How crazy is this?

Speaker 1 (23:02):
I mean, like, go figure that all the same names
are the ones that got written down and recorded and
were rich. It was a small circle.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Belle Epoch Paris is up insane. Like the amount of
people American, British and English and French that were all
in these salons ended up being amazing together. Pretty crazy.
Apparently Marcel Proust came to the salon because of Robert
Montesquieu introduced him, and Marcel got a lot of his

(23:33):
like observations of society that he became famous for writing
in those salons. So kind of Winneretta salon was sort
of his, like what he was writing about.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
In fact, Marcel Proust wrote that before they had ever
met in person, Winneretta and Edmund de Paulagnac had bid
against one another at an art auction trying to win
a Monet Claude Monet's Champe de tulip Wow, full painting
of Julip.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
I mean, look, if you want a beautiful painting of tulips,
you call Claude Monette. I tell you that.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Well, of course, you know we already know Edmund was
having money troubles, so of course Winneretta won this. Yeah,
and at the time, Edmund was apparently enraged to have
been outbid by an American woman. Oh real snobby about it.
But then he later joked, quote, I married the American
and could look at the painting as often as I like.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
I wonder if that was like the cinch for him
in this marriage. She's like, oh, it's a woman. I'm
not into that. She likes music. Okay, she's rich, that's good.
She's got my painting.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
That's probably. Robert was apparently like, hey, man, you should
marry Winnetta singer. Dude, like, you'll solve all your problems.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Probably say she's got that monet, you can hang it
right in your room.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
I said, whatever I have to do to get that painting,
I will, I will marry a woman.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
In fact, also Monette himself would hang out at the
Polyniac salon all the time. He also became friends with
actual pain Oh my god, pretty dope.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, that's better than just buying the painting.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
He could be like, drum me another tulip?

Speaker 1 (25:09):
Why well, yeah, why why buy the milk you can
get for free?

Speaker 2 (25:13):
For free for dinner the price of dinner.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Why by the tulips when you can just befriend Claude Monette.
That's the other version of that saying.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
For real, uh Whinneretta also introduced Edmund to Polignac, to
Venice because remember she already like going there, Oh sure,
and it soon became one of his favorite places. He
particularly loved this palace on the Grand Canal. It was
called the Palazzo Contari ni dal Zaffo. And one day
in nineteen hundred, they're having dinner with some rich friends

(25:40):
and he kind of saw it, you know, the corner
of his eye, and he spontaneously exclaimed, quote, ah, that
is the place to live in. We must manage to
get it, one way or another. And apparently this kind
of amazed Whineretta because Edmund rarely asked for anything for himself,
like he didn't really take advantage of this rich white

(26:01):
he had. So when Iaretta decided, you know what, I'm
gonna buy him that palazzo, thanks so much. And it
took her a few months of like real estate wrangling.
We all know it takes a while to close on
a house, but she got it and it became the
Palazzo Contarini Polignac.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
What I will say, I just looked it up at
the Palazzo Contorini dal Zafo aka Contorni Polignac. It's beautiful.
It is beautiful, beautiful. I would totally buy it if
I had the money'sta it's It's a private residence today
still apparently for the Polignac family, and they do a

(26:37):
frequent art events.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
The foundation that she sets up inherited it, so they
do a lot of concerts. Let's go, ready, go. We
haven't been to Venis though, No, we'll record an episode.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Well, I've been to visits on my study abroad and
wasn't my favorite. Damn sorry, Well, sadly for a big
tone shift here. Her husband, Edmund, had never really been
in great health. I remember he was twenty years older

(27:10):
than her as well, and he died just seven months
after she bought him the palazzo, shortly after his sixty
seventh birthday, and Winneretta basically spent the rest of her
life honoring him in the best way that she knew.
How artistic patronage leading to some of the most beloved
artistic works of our time, and we have barely even
scratched the surface on all of her lesbian love affairs.

(27:33):
So we're going to talk about that right after this break.
Welcome back, everybody, now.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Winneretta and Edmund both had affairs during their marriage. That
was sort of part of the the deal, right, Neil, Right,
was that we get to each do our own thing. Yeah,
but most of Winneretta's most famous relationships seemed to have
started after Edmund died. Okay, So I don't know why,
speculation station. Maybe she felt like she could be more

(28:09):
out and proud as a widow than as a married woman.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Oh sure.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Maybe she's just a little more private about who and what.
Or maybe they both just kind of went for people
that weren't names, or.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
They're just like they seem to really enjoy spending time together.
Maybe they just devoted a lot of their time together
and she wasn't that often out there looking you know, Yeah,
or she was just so busy with her art she
didn't have a lot of time for those flings.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Right, Very true. That sounds like or maybe like he's
you know, such a shield in a way that like
her female friendships weren't as remarked on. Sure, and then
after he's gone, everyone's like, well, she's spent ten years
with this one, lady. Oh you know what I mean, Like,
I don't know for sure, but just saying. And you guys,
Winneretta picked some amazing women to have affairs with, like

(28:55):
of course, because her circle is incredible.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah right, just scratching.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
The surface here. One of her lovers was Olga Demeyer,
who was an artist, muse and model. She was a
champion fencer, and she was an opium addict. They were
together from nineteen oh one to nineteen oh five.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Quite a comboat, uh huh.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
She also had a relationship with the composer Ethel Smith
in nineteen oh three, Big Suffragists. She wrote like the
Suffragette Anthem and was this amazing composer she fell deeply
in love with, Winneretta started writing an opera about her.
Winneretta also had an affair with the painter Romaine Brooks
starting in nineteen oh five, and fans of our Collette

(29:36):
series might remember Romaine Brooks. We've brought her up before
because she had a fifty year menage with Natalie Clifford Barney,
who was another famed Parisian lesbian. She was actually an
American expat like Winneretta. She was a big proponent of
non monogamy. And apparently Winneretta did not like Natalie Clifford. Oh,
I thought they would have been total broski too similar.

(29:59):
Winneretta was like acted like she didn't even know her
something like she were like, I don't know what that is.
That so I think I think Wheneretta was a little
more conservative than Natalie Clifd Barney, Natalie Clifford Barney's like
non monogamy just set her apart. I think because she
was just like, there's no reason to tie yourself down
or whatever, even though Winneretta's totally got a lot of
overlap too, right. Winneretta also had a playing with the

(30:23):
pianist and singer Renata Burgatti in the early nineteen twenties,
the socialite Violet Trifuses for ten years from nineteen twenty
three to nineteen thirty three, and the landscape expert and
garden designer al Veiled Chaplain from nineteen thirty eight to
nineteen forty three. It's a big name, a lot of
big names and kind of long relationships. A lot of them.

(30:43):
They were together for a while, and.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Some people even say that she had an affair with
author Virginia Wolf, although some people think that they were
just friends, and in fact, Virginia Wolf did throw some
shade on Winneretta. At one point, she wrote to a friend, quote,
to look at her, You'd never think she ravished half
the virgins in Paris. Yeah, it's like she's not. I

(31:06):
don't know for all that, damn Virginia Wolf noted for
her wicked burns.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Virginia Wolf almost be roasted by Virginia Wolf.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
But look, I know, we just rattled off a lot
of like and she did this, she did that, And
you're like, but what tell me more? I know, But
all these women were so accomplished and talented, with so
much story of their own, that were actually going to
do a whole separate episode dedicated just to the lesbian
lovers of Winneretta Singer.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Every one of them is so cool, you guys, right
there really are.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
There's a ton of crossover. Some of these lesbians had
affair with each other, some of their gay husbands were
having affairs with each other as well. Just a real,
real spider web of relationships and stories. So so stay tuned.
You know, we've got a lot more to talk about
with Winnaretta right here. But then next episode we're going
to go through all.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
These individuals lovers and all their lovers.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yes, yeah, it's gonna be chaos, but we will talk
about one well known story about Winneretta. She was in
Venice at one point and she invited a married woman
that she had a crush on to dinner. The husband
of this woman, who had not been invited himself, got
super jealous and drunk, and he came in. He pushed

(32:22):
his way past the servants and he was in the
dining room and he yelled at Winneretta quote.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
If you're half the man you pretend to be, come
and fight a duel tomorrow at the lead o the
fighting bit for the honor of my wife.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
Then he threw a bunch of place settings and candlesticks
into the grand canal. Then he got escorted out. All
the items were recovered. Feel sorry for those divers because
the Venice Grand Canal is not one i'd want to
swim in. That's sure, in a.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Gondola with like a net, you know, like.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Scooping out of man.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
But they had to be heavy, right, they must have dove.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
To the ball. It was. Yeah, that was a lot
of work for this. Oh of course, of course, so
you know, damage undone. But surely a lot of gossip
going around this story for months. Seriously, did you hear
what this Beauci did?

Speaker 2 (33:20):
That's Beaucci.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, I don't know what his name was.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
No one does. The woman is not named, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
She was like you keeping my name out of the
history books for these ones.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
But yeah. One of the gossips that was probably dining
out in this story for a long time was Winneretta's matchmaker,
Count Robert de Montesquieu, because after their marriage, Robert felt
like he had done Edmond and Winneretta a huge favorite
getting them together, and he didn't think they showed enough
gratitude for it. Oh well, they should be bound and

(33:53):
scrape a little more.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
We're my finder's feet exactly, maybe a.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Hand for some ship that they don't want to pay for.
He also claimed he was not invited to the wedding.
Edmund de Polignac always said that was not true. He's like,
none of that is true. But Robert basically broke off
their friendship, and then he spent as much time as
he could spreading rumors about the couple, and he would
rag on Winneretta for her neu veau riche background, so
just being kind of a bitch. So he probably loved

(34:19):
this story and talked about it everywhere he went, like, Oh,
did you hear the one about Winneretta. She's probably still
getting her candlesticks out of the canal.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Damn.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Also, this is something of a tangent, but it's such
a fun story. Conspiracy lovers might be interested.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Oh do you mean here's where it gets crazy.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yes, this is where I wanted to across there with
stuff they don't want you to know. Yes, But in
nineteen oh one, there were two women named Charlotte Anne
Moberly and Eleanor Jordaine, and they went to visit the Petit,
which is three Antoinette's palace rights.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, her own separate little quarters, right.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
And so they're wandering around in nineteen oh one, and
they claim that they actually traveled back in time or
experienced a haunting because they said they saw Marie Antoinette
and members of her court and servants like doing stuff
in the and they said they described kind of a
spooky vibe. So they published an account of this incident

(35:17):
in nineteen eleven. It's now called the Moberly Jordaine Incident,
and it caused a huge sensation. It was like the
Bigfoot of its time, right, it was a big deal. Yeah,
but it's like captured imaginations allway.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Sure. Sure, But in the nineteen.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Sixties it was suggested that these two women had actually
stumbled on one of Count Robert de Montesque's party where
his avant garde friends dressed up and performed tableaux vivant
or living pictures in period costume, and then Marie Antoinette
they saw may even have been a cross dress all,
oh my god. And so they're like these Edwardian spinsters

(35:56):
seeing an avant garde party would have probably seemed very
spooky and so real to them. So they actually saw
some gay party and oh my godd thought they traveled
back in time.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
They're probably tripping on mushrooms too. I mean, that's like
me walking into Dragon Con and being like, oh my god,
the ghosts from the future have come back. It's just
like Star Trek exactly, posing for pictures with each other.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
So that account was accepted, and there was no no
more publications here. Their story was allowed to be printed
after that.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Gotcha. They put a stamp on it and said no,
this was one of his parties.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
They're pretty sure that that's incredible.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
That's crazy. They were tripping so hard they thought they
were in that they were being surrounded by ghosts. You
wonder if they're like poking party guests and being like,
are you real poking my face a ghost?

Speaker 2 (36:50):
I'm supposed to be posing right now? Kind of ruining it.
I do love too. They saw a man in address
and they were like.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Haunting. Well, anyway, let's get back to a Winnaretta singer.
She is a widow now. She chose to show her
love for Edmund to Polignac by supporting the artists and
musicians that they had loved together. My poor long lost husband,
let me preserve his legacy here through art.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Right.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
She created a fund for a yearly Wagner concert, because
Wagner had been Edmund's favorite composer, and in fact, for
Edmund's funeral. She rented out this palazzo in Venice, where
the composer Wagner had frequently stayed, and she had musicians
playing Wagner in his honor, and all the palazzo owners
along the Grand Canal hung these banners in tribute to Edmund.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah, I think that's nice.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
It kind of shows to that Edmund. You know, it's
really easy to kind of write off Edmund is like
Winneretta's husband or whatever. But he was clearly a very
important member of this team, Like be brought in as
many artists as she did, you know, to their salon.
He was as much of a connection point for all
these iconic people as she was. So right, it's just
easy to forget that. But he actually had a lot

(38:04):
of these contacts as well.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
And I'll say, and I'm the half joking but half
serious here, if you're someone with money looking to invest
it somewhere and you throw it into the next tech
trend fad, you know that can fizzle out, yep, business,
startup whatever, Like you're trying to make a lot of
money and maybe works. But if you want your name
celebrated in the streets long after you're dead and one

(38:27):
day people you know, give a podcast talking about how
great you were, you throw your money to artists, that's right, right,
And you support culture absolutely in your area, and you
know people are going to celebrate you when you're alive
and after your death, right.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
Because you're literally bankrolling beauty and expression and some things
that people can't do without.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Things that there last.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
You can do without things that last that last. Exactly.
Not every artist is going to hit every time, but
it's still worth your money.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yep. No, every artist hits, you know, so give them money.
Don't think about that. It's not about well and kind
of seriously, it's not about whether or not it's successful.
You're not investing like an investor, like, let me take
a gamble in this artist and hope I make a
ton of money, like you're just That's the thing with
art is that it doesn't operate on the same commercial
spectrum as every other business. Its value is different than dollars,

(39:20):
and it has tremendous value. That's not wi wu, it's
not hippie dippy, it's not ignorable. It's actually super important
literally every culture through history. Anyway, get your minds out
of the bank for one minute to please everybody. Oh
my god, there'll be time for that later anyway. Winneretta

(39:41):
also created the Edmund de Polignac Prize for Writing, which
was awarded annually to British authors. And she was a
patron of people like Collette and Marcel Proust, and Jean Cocteaux,
who is one of the leaders of the Surrealist and
Dadaist movements, and poets like Anna de Noilli and Paul Valeri.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
That's right, and names. Knowing that she knew Marcel Proust
and Jean Cocteau. I can imagine this is never written anywhere,
but I can't imagine that she probably crossed paths at
some point with Claude Cahoun and Marcel Moore. I really
hope so.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
I hope so right.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
But she might have been a little too They might
have been too out there for her, because again we
found out she is a little more conservative than maybe
her Her life seems to be taxed now. But I
hope so. I think that would be cool, that's cool
if she if Claude was at one of the salons.
Of course, Winderette is still bankrolling musicians as her favorite.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Right.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
She was honoring Edmund to Polognac's memory by commissioning several
compositions that are still well loved today, including the opera
Renard by Igor Stravinski, Concerto's by Poulan kurt Vile's Second Symphony,
and Eric Satis Socrates. She actually even intervened to keep
Eric Setti out of jail while he was writing Socrates,

(41:00):
like a libel suit was brought against him or something.
She's like, hang on, let him finish this shit that
I paid for already.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
He's busy. You don't have time for jail. He's busy
right now.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
He was like, okay, here's the commission fee, and here's
for your bail. And she kept up her weekly concerts
at her house. She was hosting the first performances of
many of these pieces, in addition to performances from names
like the dancer Isidora Duncan, the composer Nadia boulangeres Armand
de Paulagnac, cole porter Darius Milhoude. She also bankrolledge Diagilev's

(41:32):
Ballet Rouss on several occasions, and apparently got very jealous
of the money that she spent on Stravinsky. He said,
quote Renard is just some scraps he found in his
dresser drawer.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Wow, man, artists are so petty, they're so Petty.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Ay, this is another reason why I would be so
fun to go, because you just like listen to these
bitches complain about each other. Apparently also went to another
of his great supporters, who was Coco Chanel.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Oh famed Nazi.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Famed Nazi sympathizer col Kerschannel, and he told her that
Winneretta had given him seventy five thousand francs, but he
was still broke and the Belly Roost needed some support
or whatever. And Chanelle, speaking of Petty, grabbed her check
book and replied, quote, the Princess de Polagnak is a
grand American lady. I am only a steamstress. Here is

(42:21):
two hundred thousand. Wow, what a bitch?

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Well, I who am I? I'm just a poor seamstress.
Here's okay, here's more than double what she gave you.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Rescribe the aglae though, because he knew exactly what to say,
like you knew he said that, I'll put huh. Definitely,
I didn't get enough from Winneretta. Who can I.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
I know, see, he's Petty knows Petty, Petty knows, he
sees it, he knows it, he sees it, and he
uses it.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Let me fan the spite from Coker channel to fund
my ballet.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Oh my god. Well, also, if y'all like Vivaldi, oh
the four Seasons you're hearing now. In Winneretta's time, Vivaldi
was well known to classical music connoisseurs. It was a
very particular, you know, it was the Vivaldi was the
punk rock of his dad. You only knew if you

(43:11):
were really in.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
It, if you were like music, you got it.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
But he actually might have faded into obscurity over time
if it weren't for Winnaeretta and her friend Olga Rudge.
Olga Rudge was a violinist and actually Ezra Pounds long
term mistress, speakingism and and Olga was also a frequent
collaborator with the pianist and singer Renata Borgatti, who we
mentioned earlier. Renata Borgotti had a fling with Winneretta. More

(43:40):
spiderweb here, Yeah, exactly right now. According to the Lotsa
Contorni Polignac dot com, Olga was researching early music in
Dresden in the nineteen thirties and she found a pile
of Vivaldi manuscripts, mostly a violin concerti, and she transcribed
these manuscripts. She brought them back to Venice. I think

(44:00):
there's something here. It's Vivaldi violin hello, and Winneretta like, yeah,
this looks good to me, opened up her pocketbook for
Olga and Ezra pound to fund a publication of these works. Now,
most of the work Olga discovered hadn't been played in
the public for over two hundred years, so Winneretta started

(44:21):
to include them in her concerts, and of course this
just contributed to this overall revival of appreciation for Vivaldi.
And now every time a fancy rich people seen comes
on a TV show, you're going to hear this right exactly.
It is synonymous with high culture, right.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
And how funny is it that Vivaldi needed a patron
in his time and then two hundred years later it
required another wealthy person to keep his music relevant. I'm like, like,
just to back to our conversation about egots or whatever.
The money really does matter.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
It does? It does, It does, and again.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
It's frustrating, but it does.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
If you right now want to contribute to art, we
will take your contributions. And if you are listening to
this episode two hundred years from its publication day. You
can still fund our work, that's right, you know, revive it,
bring it back, and then find us. Use your future
life phrase to bring us back. If it's a good future.

(45:26):
If it's not, y'all, y'all, y'all can have it. But
if we fixed all these problems, I'd love to see.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
It, uh huh, Yeah, back these our brains or whatever.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
And yeah, and we'll can upload us or we'll bring
you more ancient art from the twenty first century.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah it's vintage, thank you.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Ye. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
But Winneretta did not just spend her money on music
and painting. Sure, however important that is. When the Great
War broke out in nineteen fourteen, when pretty much every
nation was plunged into an economic depression after it, and
during the Second World War, Winneretta spent her money where
she thought it was needed the most, on the poor.

(46:06):
Imagine that, and we'll hear all about her public service
right after this break.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Welcome back, everybody.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
So Winneretta singer Paula yak knew that a lot of
people were not as lucky as she was in her
financial situation, but instead of turning her back on them,
she chose to help.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Look, there's a lesson in somebody who knows how to
use their money, right, all right, And I tell you
what she helped. She funded a ton of arts, she
funded a ton of poor people. And you know what,
she was still rich, Hella rich, You can still do
it rich.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, she had no second mortgage on her palazzo.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
She was doing all right, you can fund the arts
and feed the poor and still be rich.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
You can still be Hella comfortable. So in nineteen eleven,
Winneretta funded the building of a housing project for the
working poor, and it actually became a model for future
affordable public housing projects because when Auretta included things like
modern appliances indoor plumbing, she made sure the building had
a lot of natural light and safety features for children.

(47:16):
Like she was thinking about human beings living there, yeah,
instead of just like, let's make the most uncomfortable prison
cell looking place dang and dark that we can. Now.
During the Great War, she went to all her rich
friends and she's like, you ain't driving it, And she
amassed a fleet of limousines, oh that they all had,
and she funded their conversion into ambulances and mobile radiology

(47:39):
units and the guidance of none other than Madam Marie Kirie.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
So these limos end up rumbling to the front lines
to help wounded soldiers.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Oh my god. Cool. Well, after the war, Winneretta collaborated
with another wealthy American expat, Consuela Vanderbilt, the Duchess of Marlborough.
They constructed a three hundred and sixty bed hospital in
a suburb of Paris, specifically to treat middle class workers.
It's called the Fush Hospital, and it is still in

(48:09):
operation today. In fact, it's rated the top hospital in France,
especially if you need a kidney transplant. So maybe one
day I'll be swinging by there, I.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
Know, right, I hope not. I was thinking to you though, Look.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
I just get kidney stones a lot. It's true, probably
partly because a particular period of my life where I
almost exclusively drank energy drinks. So please PSA for the day,
get away from that poison.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
It's not good for you.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
The worst.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
I are you back.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
I think they're sponsors that I didn't say any names.
You didn't. Well, this hospital also includes a nursing school,
so a bunch of really great stuff happening here because
of Winneretta and Consuelo. She was also a patron of
the scientist Eduard Branlee, who was the first to invent
a wireless telegraph. Winneretta also kept up her public housing projects.

(49:06):
She commissioned the modern architect Le Corbusier to build or
reconstruct several shelters for the homeless, as well as shelters
for battered or abandoned women and children for Paris's Salvation Army. So,
just a lot of really good She's just like, I
need to do good things. I mean, I've been leaning
good life. I got a lot of money and just
handed to me and kind of because my dad made

(49:27):
a sewing machine. Okay, uh, time to start doing some
good in the world.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Yeah. I love that she didn't turn her back on
people like that, right, she really she was like, I
have all this money and no one to spend it on.
She didn't have kids of her own or anything like that.
She's just like, what am I supposed to do? But
to make the world around me a better place.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
And then she's like, I ha done, snatched up all
the buildings on land that I can. So she bought
a barge that La Corbusierre remodeled into a floating homeless
shelter in the winter. Oh so now it's like, not
only can this can I house the homeless on land?
I can also do it on sea.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Listen, you gotta use whatever space you.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Got, right, And this also became a children's camp in
the summer, and it was moored on the sand river.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
That's right. Apparently in like twenty eighteen they were like
historic rain there in France and it got brought on floodwaters.
And so now that barge is at the bottom of
the seind Oh, and they're trying to pull it back up.
I don't know if they have or not.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Sure, let's go.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
It's very interesting that he because he apparently look for
Corbisier was like, I thought it was a really cool challenge.
He was, you know, a very limited space. You can't
add on a lot to a barge, so he's trying
to fit as many beds and it as possible and stuff.
So he probably really enjoyed that commission, which is kind
of cool.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
See it could be fun to help people too.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
What a thing.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
It just really in a philanthropy this episode.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
No, right, Well, it's hard not to be inspired by
winterreda if I had a lot of money, I hope
I would be a winner.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Retto, Yeah, yeah, let's find out. If anybody wants to
give us a lot of money, we'll show you what
kind of people we are.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
You don't want to be Winnaretta, yourself, Let me be
with your money now. In nineteen thirty nine, when the
Second World.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
War broke out, the sequel nobody wanted.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Exactly, a horrible sequel. Winneretta was actually back in Devonshire
because her younger brother had died, and because of travel
embargoes and stuff like that, she never really got to
return to her beloved parish. Sure, but you know, our
girls stayed active. She organized concerts and charitable events for
the Red Cross. She made friends with big British music

(51:35):
names of the day, Palazzo Contarini. Poliniac says that she
frequently considered actually going home to America, but she just
could not bring herself to get on a plane. She
did not have the courage to get on an airplane.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Oh yes, sure, sure so.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
In nineteen forty three, during a bombing in London in
the Blitz, Winneretta died of a heart attack at the
age of seventy eight aw Man. She was buried in
the family crypt in Turkey, England, and the newspaper Le
Figaro in Paris published her obituary a year later, and
they kind of explained the gap in coverage, writing quote,

(52:13):
the events and subjugation of free speech in France made
it impossible to speak in a manner befitting the Princess
Edmond de Polignac and the homage she deserves. It is
impossible to write a chronicle of the twentieth century without
including the salon on Avenue Henri Martin and the Palazzo
on the Grand Canal.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Yeah, for real, which is so true.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
I think we talked about that a little in Colette
as well. Yeah, not that she died in forty three,
but that just it was nobody could say anything because
it was occupied France, so you couldn't really talk about
all of the amazing homosexual people that made France so
incredible and unique in the twenties.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
It's trying not to get bogged down in it, but it's
heartbreaking to me that she died in forty three. France
was liberated in forty four, so she did not get
to see and know that Paris was returned. You know
that it didn't stay. You know, you only hope that,
you know, I don't know what kind of foresight do
you have during a war to know what's going to
happen at the end of it. But yeah, true, But

(53:14):
it is sad to me that she died while Paris
was occupied by the worst people of all time, you know.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
So I do wonder if she thought, well, will we
ever get out of this? Was never ending? Is Germany
going to win? I mean, forty three is a pretty
low point.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Yeah. Yeah, but I'm but you can't see why it
took them until after forty four to be able to
say anything about it. But I'm glad that they they
did loudly. Yeah, you know, they really came out and
were like, let me wait, we didn't drop the ball
on this, y'all. We got something to say. Yeah, you
know that's great. Now today, Winnoretta's good work is still

(53:54):
being carried on by the Foundation singer Paulagnac that she
had in Doubt in nineteen twenty eight, which they are
dedicated to funding science, literature, the arts, culture, and French
philanthropy through gifts and travel scholarships and the foundation inherited
Winnaretta's mansion and they still hold concerts there today. They
elevate the next generation of French music. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
I looked at the artists that I don't they're no
one I've heard of but for a while, right, Yeah,
they seem very cool. A lot of trios and cool
like class musicians. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Now, look, Winneretta. This is a woman obviously who had
an incredible eye and ear for the unique, you know,
just stuff you hadn't really thought of much before. She
wanted to put it front and center.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
And and the fact that she continues to shape arts
and culture even after her death. It's pretty incredible, right
for real. I mean that's the thing is like part
of that, Like we were talking about earlier funding the arts,
it's going to have an impact long beyond your time here,
Like stuff you don't even It's like planting a tree
that you know you're never going to see it its

(55:01):
full height, but you also know that it one day
will be at that full height. And that's something special, I.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
Think, and it's a special mind. Yeah, you can think
of that. I think we talked about that with Olmsted,
the park designer. He designed Central Park, Yeah, and also
Piedmont Park here in Atlanta. Yeah, but he always talked
about that. He's like, if you're a landscape architect, you're
picturing a park that is full grown, but you're building
a park that is new, and it don't look like

(55:27):
your mind's eye and you might never see your mind's
eye vision because it's supposed to be fifty one hundred
years from now, which I think just that kind of
long term vision is such a unique skill set. Like
I don't know, it's just a fascinating.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Right, and that's a harp on it, but it's so
important this idea, especially that, like I don't know, if
you have any sort of inkling about whether or not
you have an existence after death, you know, and then
does the state of the world matter to you in
that existence wherever you are, then you might want to consider, right,

(56:02):
you know, also just consider what you know is happening
to your name. Do you want to be the most
hated person or a forgotten person or a person who
is hundreds of years later being celebrated. Yeah, they were
the wonderful things they.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
Did and associated with so many like beautiful works of art,
I mean, insanely beautiful compositions. I was listening to a
lot of these. I'm not a classical music connoisseur by
any means, right, so I was like, who's Poolong, Who's
Eric Seti? And I listened to a lot of these
while researching this, and they're all incredible, of course they are,

(56:37):
but like, right, I don't know, It's just it's just
amazing to have that kind of heart and that kind
of ear for those whotch of things and know what's
going to touch people insane so intensely that we are
still listening to Seti and still go into the Lincoln
Center and stuff to hear the string quartet opus one
three or whatever, Like she knew what would stick.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
And I think that's the thing too, is that we
talked about funding a work of art and it's the
work or if you're saying, like, imagine, you know, being
part of this one particular thing, but you also have
to consider that art is yeah, like a string in
a tapestry, right, like it is part of a larger
culture and that culture we live in, like regardless, So

(57:20):
each piece of art, right, and each conversation, each thing
that happens is obviously part of a larger hole that
we have to live in. How people are being influenced
to what their behavior is like. You know, are you
in a miserable hell hole or are you in kind
of a golden age? And that often comes from people
supporting art with money, And there's just it's so like

(57:44):
winter at a show in here. It's not hard to
have a lot of money and spend a lot of
money on stuff. That's not a financial investment return, but
it's a cultural investment return. The world you live in
is better. And guess what, most of the time you
still have a lot of money. There aren't a lot
of wealthy donors and patrons out there who are like, well,
I used to be rich, but then I funded the arts,

(58:06):
so now it's gone. There's plenty. Uh huh, you got plenty.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
And back to the foundation that she ended out, uh
huh has no other funding source than her endowment. So today, wow, Wow,
she had enough money that that foundation is going strong.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
Yeah, yeah, very credible, incredible And she never suffered for cash,
not at all, you know, not a once, not a once.
Just incredible. Uh. The American diplomat Moral Cody said it
best about Winneretta. He said, quote Winneretta Singer was the
woman among us who decisively shaped and directed and nourished

(58:44):
the social and artistic and literary life of the young. Yeah.
I mean again, just setting up the present and the future. Yeah.
I think it's really amazing stuff. It's so absolutely vital
to a healthy society. Sorry, it just is. We got

(59:04):
tens of thousands of years of evidence to pull from.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
So true.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
So stop being dumb and der money on artists. Georgia
the lowest arts funded state in the country, Throw some
cash out there to make it work. I know we
don't need to get you started. We don't, miss Queen
of the nonprofits. Huh.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
But I just you know, I love to you that
She never she never commissioned Stravinsky or anything thinking oh
this is gonna hit.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
She commissioned him because she liked it. Yeah, she thought
it sounded good. And she's like, you know what, hey,
I write something else. I'm going to give you enough
money that you don't have to work or run around
or worry about your rent or whatever. All you need
to be doing is working on your music. The same
with Faret when she gave him her palazzo in Venice
for a minute, go take a load of like you're tired, man,

(59:55):
like go, which is the other thing is so frustrating.
Everyone's supposed to do art as there like hobby or
second thing, and like also be supporting their life.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Yeah, and how many how many artists can't right now
listening to this say, oh, if I just had time
off where you don't have to worry about anything, not
a pause because there's a pandemic going on, but like
just a forced vacation where all my whole thing is
to sit and create.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Well, and again even that it's not really vacation, because
we talk about a lot, you know, you and I
talk about how when you're creating it often looks like
time off and it's not. It's work, right, and it yeah,
it's time off if I'm just kicking back and being like, oh,
right later, I'm gonna play some video games for a while.
But sitting there with the blank page in a quiet
space with some music on, you know, with a window

(01:00:45):
by the sea or whatever, it doesn't even have to
be that that's work, and it's that it's hard work,
and it's frustrating work, and it's challenging work. And also
I was going to say that she likely did that
for lots of people whose names we don't know too
about exactly, because she didn't. It wasn't like everyone I
fund is a hit. She was like, I'm throwing money

(01:01:05):
out to a bunch of stuff, and some of these
people are gonna be really impressive.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Yeah, are they gonna last as long as they last
like the ballet roost or something like, They're gonna do
whatever they can do and whatever time they have, and
that's okay, Like they don't have to be you know,
still going on.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Yeah, yeah, And a lot of artists exist within their
own time with with great importance and skill and you know,
incredible works and that's all they are, and that's that's great.
Too much needed, And also to your point about just
being able to go do your work without him a
worry about it. Bob Dylan retired, he was like, I'm

(01:01:44):
done making music. I'm gonna go sit in a cabin
by myself fair a while. And he went there. He
sat down and something like night two, he's like he
didn't you And he's like, wait a second, and he
wrote like a rolling stone because he was just away.

(01:02:06):
He's just got to separate himself for a minute. He
wrote like a rolling Stone, like one of the most
epic poems. Yes, the music of all time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
I really think that is what happened with Fret. I
think she was really like, you are burnt out, go relax.
But while he's relaxing, he's inspired and regenerated. He's like
in Venice, it's beautiful, there's music and art all around him.
He's got something to be inspired by. He strolls by
the canal every day, sees the gondolas. He's like thinking
about something that strikes a chord. Next thing you know,

(01:02:37):
you're writing sonk melody, Like you know what I mean
of Venice, Like he couldn't have written that Venus. So
I don't know, it's just something to be said about. Like,
like you said, a lot of creativity and creation can
look like idleness or oh you're walking around looking at
the freaking stars or nature or something, and it looks

(01:02:59):
like you're just indulging yourself, and in a way, you are.
Because art is about taking in and reflecting and expressing.
I mean, that's that is what it is. So if
you lived in a little cave your whole life, what
kind of art could you really make you have to
go out and experience and react to things around you,
and exactly so, I just I just love that she's

(01:03:21):
straight up like, you know, Gabriel, you look in a
little worn. Let's just give you a wonderful vacation and
guess what happened. You're gonna make something great. But even
if he hadn't, that's not why she sensed it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Exactly Exactly what I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
To say is I need a vacation and I will
write sunk melody to buddies.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Look, and one last point here that I think is
really important to once again a massive cultural influence, a
massive period of history and a surge in in just
in cultural benefit that we owe all to the let's right,
you know, that's right. It just keeps happening.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
They're great people and just the LGBT crowd in general.
Of course, I am also very amen, very good at contributing,
very true.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
Dioga liv also homosexual. We had plenty of homosexual affairs
as well.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
So this one goes out to the lesbians.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
This one is for the lesbians of bellipowk Paris and
also today.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Yea, yep, yeah, oh what a great story.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
I Loretta.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
I love Winneretta, and we've got more to tell of
Winneretta because we're going to get into those lesbian relationships
more specifically next time.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
I'm sorry, but everyone I looked up, I was just like, what,
they all have some crazy shit going on with their romances,
So we're going to try to condense them all under
one episode's stay tuned, It's coming back true. So got
to say thanks again to Seth Bats at Seth Sculptures
for this wonderful suggestion, because we got three episode actually

(01:05:00):
and it's been really fun. So thank you so much
to Seth. And if you have any suggestions or anything
you'd like to say about Winneretta or a show or us,
or just you know, I don't know. If you have
some bank roll and you want to give us some
money for our next amazing projects or vacation or whatever,
please reach out. It's ridict Romance at.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Gmail dot com, that's right, or you can find us
on Instagram as well.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
I'm at O Great as Elive, I'm at Dianamite Boom.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
And follow the show at ridict Romance Great.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
I love hearing from y'all always, so wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Thanks for tuning in, We love you, Catch you next
time Bright.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
So long friends, it's time to go. Thanks for listening
to our show. Tell your friends names uncles, and to
listen to a show Ridiculous Rollmans