Shi Gets Real: The Seductive Spy Story of M. Butterfly

Bernard Bouriscot worked in the French Embassy in China in the 1960s, where he befriended a man named Shi Pei Pu. Soon, Shi revealed his biggest secret - he was actually a woman in disguise! They fell in love, and Bernard started spying for the Chinese government in order to stay close to her. But Shi had more secrets, and Bernard was in for some shocking truths!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Hey, y'all.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
I felt like I had a little secret when I
said it like that. Hey, everybody, what guess what? I
have no secrets for you. I wear everything on my sleeve.
You get what you know what you're getting with me.
That's one thing. People have always said, I got nothing
to hide. Do you think that's true? You know me

(00:22):
better than most.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
I don't think you have anything to hide unless you've
hidden it very very very well. For me.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Maybe I have.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
I know well and apparently you can.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
I guess I'm really good at keeping secrets. Then I'll
tell you what secret. I'll tell you what. I don't
have any secrets right now, but I'm a great secret keeper.
Right If someone says, hey, don't tell anyone about this,
because you know we we know people. I'm sure everyone
knows people where if you tell them, don't tell anyone
about this. They can't help it. It bursts out of

(00:57):
them like just you know, a rain erupting from I'm
a magical volcano. They have to get it out. There's
just an impulse. It's like I must tell someone, and
I'll tell you whatever that is in your brain, it's
broken in mind. I have no impulse to share secrets.

(01:20):
It's just not interesting to me. So you can tell
me whatever you want, as long as you say, please
don't tell anyone. Eh, okay, well yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
I need to know it's in confidence. I've definitely had
someone like I've said like, oh, yeah, I remember talking
about that with so and so about whatever, and they'd
be like, oh damn, put me on blast. You know, yes,
we'll talk about that. And I was like, oh, if
you had said so, I would have definitely kept it
to myself. But if you're just talking to me, yeah,
you got. I'm not going to assume that this is
a privileged information.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Right, So everyone email your deepest darcacy to ridict romancegmail
dot com with the subject line keep this a secret. Yeah,
and we will not read it on the show, but
we'll be glad to know it. But you were about
to say something.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Oh I don't okay, sorry, I'm trying to think of
something to talk about this. It's not going to frustrate me.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Oh well, it must be a mere weeks away from
the Atlanta Fringe Festival.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
It is mere weeks in the fringe.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well, we'll just leave it at it's very exciting it's
going to be a festival with lots of cool performances,
and you're very tired and.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Overwel and I'm tired and I'm here now all as well.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah, we're we're we're going to take a break from
that and uh and go back in time a little bit.
How does that sound?

Speaker 1 (02:37):
That sounds lovely?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, separate ourselves from that chaotic world into this chaotic world.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yay, a different chaos, someone else's chaos. More importantly true,
I'm not mine, I'm not involved.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, you all can leave your troubles behind and enjoy
these people's troubles just like us.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Because this is a pretty crazy story we're about to
tell you today. This story was suggested by a listener
Katie p or At a clockwork Kitten on Instagram. Thank you, Katie,
this is a really good recommendation because today we're talking
about Bernard Borischool, who is a French diplomat who got
into some really big trouble in the nineteen eighties for

(03:20):
slipping information to the Chinese government on a deal to
help protect his friend and lover Shu Pay Pooh, who
was Sha Pay Poo. Well, that's where it gets complicated.
So let's dive into the story of show pay Pool
and Bernard Boris Skull and the honey pot plot that

(03:41):
titillated a nation.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh sounds dangerous. Let's go.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Hey their French come listen.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well, Eli and Diana got some stories to tell.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
There's no matchmaking, a romantic tips.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
It's just about ridiculous relation, ships, a love.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
There might be any type of person at all, and
abstract concept don't conquer. But if there's a story, we
were the second Glance Ridiculous Romans.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
A production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Okay, most of our info is coming from a nineteen
ninety three New York Times article written by Joyce Wadler
that's called the true story of m Butterfly, the spy
who fell in love with a shadow.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Fascinating So, Bernard A.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Burisco was a Frenchman. He was bored. I don't know
if that's you put on that. Well, anyway, he is
a Frenchman. He was born in nineteen forty four, and
he went to boarding schools as a kid, and while
he was there he engaged in multiple homosexual affairs. Sure,
but after he left school he became very determined to

(04:44):
have sex with a woman because he felt that homosexual
activity was just like a rite of passage in an
all male school. He was like, that's not me, that's
just what you do.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
That's just another sport we play, right, I guess so
much boys in a room? What else are we getting into?

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Joyce wrote quote, he enjoyed it, but it made him
feel guilty. He felt so badly about it that when
he turned eighteen, he made a promise to himself, he
will stop sleeping with boys. It's a schoolboy's game. Oh okay,
what a weird schoolboy game.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, you know, back then it was like that or
a hoop and a stick, right, I.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Guess so one or the other. Nineteen forty four we.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Got our own hoop and stick over here. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
It's sad though that He was like, I enjoyed it,
but I can't do it.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
I know it does suck to that. There's like everybody's
it's clearly what everybody's into. Why do we have to
feel guilty about it? Well? Well, Bernard ended up a
college dropout at the age of twenty, but he managed
to finagel himself a job as an accountant at the
French embassy in China. In nineteen sixty four. This is
right around or just after the Cultural Revolution when Mao

(05:55):
Zetong was taken over, and a lot of stuff changing
in China at this time.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, very period.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Oh yeah, And French President Charles de Gaulle, who you
might know from the worst airport in the world. We've
got a personal story about that one will horrible. Well,
Charles Degall recognized the People's Republic of China and the
new communist regime of Chairman Now in January of nineteen
sixty four, and then France became the first Western power

(06:24):
to open an embassy there in China since the Korean
War eleven years earlier. So a lot of relations going
on between France and China. Probably a relatively good relationship
between the two countries at the time, yeah, compared to
a lot of the others.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Right, But in China, foreigners are not welcome at this
period of time. They're kind of like, we just want
to be dealing with China's stuff with Chinese people. We
don't want a bunch of randoms run around. So it's
kind of dangerous to be a foreigner in China. You
don't really get to talk to Chinese people. Without government permission.

(06:59):
Everyone who's in the French embassy is basically just like
pushing paper. They're saving for retirement, you know, they're not
really there to like make big changes in the world.
There's something so Bernard is kind of bored and lonely.
He thought he would get an exciting, like traveling diplomat job,
but he ends up in this embassy where you like
can't really leave, you're not really talking to anybody new.

(07:20):
And yeah, he does get invited to like French embassy things,
little events and get togethers and whatever, but all the
diplomats that work there can tell he's like a working
class kid. He's not really one of them. You know,
they're from a higher echelon of society and this guy's
just a clerk, you know. Okay, so he's kind of
getting iced out at the parties.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
You dropped at the college you and the boarding school
where you played oops and sticks. Will the other boys
you're not one of us, well, Bernard is. I mean,
he's a good looking guy. He's kind of shortening. He's
got these broad shoulders and he's got a small waist.
He's got like a swimmer's body. A top little fellow nice.
So you know, people are always giving him the eyes

(08:02):
and they're like, oh, never mind, he is from our class.
So at a Christmas party that year, Bernard meets a
twenty six year old Chinese man named Shape Pooh. And
this guy was teaching some of the embassy wives Chinese.
They could get around a little easier. And Bernard really
wanted to befriend some Chinese people. He's trying to open

(08:23):
up his diversity, you know, getting to know the locals.
I'm sick of being trapped in this little box. And
he says, hey, maybe we should be friends. I could
stand to learn the little Chinese myself. And they do.
They get to know each other a little bit. Bernard suggests,
as should that he go out dancing. There's all these
pretty girls here, sir, why don't you go out and

(08:44):
try dancing. You're a handsome lad. And she says, well,
I don't really like dancing and never really date women
at all. And when Bernard asks him why he never dates,
he tells him, oh, well you would never understand.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
He's like, I would.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
I love a schoolboys game, right, Oh so you're hoop
and stick player, I see now.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Sha of course, is his last name, not his first name,
but it's easier to say, so we're just gonna say
them now. Sha invited Bernard to dinner a few days later,
which was very exciting because you don't usually get to
like go out and hang out with Chinese people. And
he tells him, I was an actor and a singer
as a teenager under the tutelage of Mae Lanfeng, who

(09:28):
is one of the most famous actors in China, and
they specialized in female roles. Okay, so they're playing women
on stage.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Okay, Shakespearean kind of thing, and the men are playing
women exactly.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Sha also played female roles, that's what you know. He
learned to do under the tutelage of Meylan Feng, and
he was really well suited to it because he was
kind of a short guy. He had sort of feminine
features in small hands, so he was able to really
play with that androgyny. But now he writes operas and
plays and he's telling Bernard, my dad was a professor

(10:00):
before he died. But my mother lives with me in
Beijing and she's a teacher. And Sha also had two
older sisters. Okay, so she's learning all this stuff about Sha,
they're getting really close.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Well, they did become very close friends, and they hung
out all the time. Bernard felt like they tell each
other things they can't tell anyone else. Say I'm a bestie.
I know I can unload on you. And she had
a really lonely childhood because his sisters are actually way
older than him. So he tells Bernard a lot of
stories about the history of China and his own roles

(10:32):
on stage, and one night he told him about the
most famous role he ever had. It was in a
production of the Story of the Butterfly.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Long ago in China, there lived a beautiful girl named
Ju ying Tai. She was the daughter of a very
learned man, and she dearly wished to attend one of
the imperial schools, but being a girl, she was not
permitted to do so. But her brother did really badly
in school, so she really upset her. She made a
plot with her brother. They exchanged clothes and she went

(11:04):
to school in his place, pretending to be a boy.
And she was this brilliant student. But in school she
met a handsome boy named Lang Shan Beau and they
came to love each other. Oh, but Liang could not
understand this strange attraction that he felt for another boy.
It's like a Mulan situation. And Ju, who was attracted

(11:25):
to Liang as well, yearned to tell him her secret,
but of course she refrained because she was afraid it
would bring dishonor to her family. Then word came out
that she had to go home because her family had
found her a husband. So finally, Jue revealed her true
identity to her friend Liang, and he declared his love

(11:46):
for her and asked her to marry him. But even
though she loved him, Ju could not disobey her family,
so she went home, and distraught, Liang took his own life.
Ju's family insisted that she proceeded with her wedding with
the other guy that they found, and she agreed, but
she said she had to first go visit her beloved's
grave and you know, pay her respect, say her goodbyes.

(12:08):
And there beneath the willows, she threw herself on his
tomb and died. Her family, who finally understood how much
their daughter loved Liang, buried her beside him, and the
souls of the two lovers turned into butterflies and flew
away together and over the grave, willow branches grew and intertwined.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Oh lovely story.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
So that's the story of the Butterfly.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well. In mid March of nineteen sixty five, Bernard was
offered a position at an expedition in Brazil. Not so bad,
I mean, some nice tropical vacation in there.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I'm sure he's excited because he was like, that's the
whole point of me being a diplomat or a diplomat's accountant,
run around the world.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah. So he tells Sha that he plans to resign
from the embassy in China, and she says, hey, why
don't you come over to my house? And this is
the first time he's had an invite over to Show's house.
Bernard is very excited because hardly any foreigners ever get
to go to a Chinese person's home. It's very special. Yes,
and there he met SHA's mother, who served him some tea.

(13:14):
Now days later, Sha walked with Bernard through the Forbidden
City and he told him the story of the Butterfly again,
and he told Bernard I have a secret quote, look
at my hands, look at my face. That story of
the butterfly, it's my story too.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yes, it turned out that shape Coop was secretly a woman.
She had been born years after her two older sisters,
and she explained to Bernard that her mother had been
told by her mother in law that if she had
another girl, the son would take another wife.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
So she's mother is like, she has another girl, and
she's like, I don't want to lose my position in
my household is some other lady. And of course the
husband actually didn't want another wife either. He sort of
loved his wife, so he's like, get off my back, mom.
So they agreed to raise Sha as a boy and
conceal his true identity from the grandmother. Wow, I'm like,

(14:18):
what kind of power does the grandma have?

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (14:20):
I had him full online about her grandkid to keep
her from getting you to marry someone else.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
You know, Elders across many cultures have some sway. But
I think in China, as I understand.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
It, Oh, yeah, a very serious situation.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
That is wild.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
So Sha has been concealing themselves as a man, teaching
Chinese to these ladies, uh huh, and befriending Bernard, and
finally decides to reveal her true identity to her best
friend Bernard.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Amazing. I bet when she was playing in the Butterfly Show,
they were like, damn, you are so good at playing
a woman pretending to be a man. You know. I
don't know where you get that instinct, but you just
a natural. I'm total natural.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Close my eyes and I really get method with it.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Well, that is incredible. Obviously there's going to be some
fallout from this, and of course we want to know
Bernard's reaction. So we'll take a quick break and we'll
be right back more after this.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Welcome back to the Honeypot.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
So Bernard believes Shaw's story right away, and he promises,
I will not tell anyone about this your secret then mind.
But now that he knows Sha is a woman, he
feels like they should start having sex. The New York
Times article says, quote, he doesn't feel a great passion.
It's something he feels he and Shad have to do.

(15:39):
You are a woman, I am a man. We love
one another. Therefore we should have.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
Sex, all right, Bernard.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, So his attitude is like, oh, well, if you're
a woman and you're talking to me, that means we
should be doing it, right, Like we should sleep together.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
So like he just cannot imagine being friends with a lady.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Oh yeah about a sexual component, or maybe it was like.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
His you know, insane, he was like so obsessed with
trying to have sex with a woman. Yea, So maybe
he was just like, oh, we get along and turns
out you're a woman, so maybe I could finally fulfill.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
This, yeah life's mission. But he wasn't very good at
talking to people except this dude apparently, so well, he
makes this proposition and she is like, yeah, okay, but
not now, all right, And of course Bernard is like,
all right, well, you know, no rush, just let me know.
It's been you know, eight years, what's what's few more weeks?

(16:31):
Take your time.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
So eventually they did start having a physical affair, but
the sex was not very satisfying. She always seemed very
nervous and had to like guide him. It was very
rushed and in darkness, and she tells Bernard that in
order to maintain her fake identity as a man, she's
taken hormones and she's afraid that it's damaged her health,

(16:54):
and that's sort of offered up as an explanation for
why their sex is always kind of rushed and so
carefully guided and everything. But you know whatever, he's like
getting what he always wanted. So he's probably feeling pretty good, right.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I guess, or he's like really everything I was hoping
it would be.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
Maybe that's it. It's like, wow, turns out all of
us about.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Maybe Hoop and Stick was more fun.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Boys do it better.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Well.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
At the end of December nineteen sixty five, just as
Bernard is about to leave for Brazil and leave Sha
behind in China, Shit tells him she's pregnant. Oh well,
Bernard swears he will come back, and he's like, I
can't cancel the expedition now, but I will come back
to China. I promised you, And he says, we'll please
name the kid Bertrand if it's a boy.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Well, four years later, Bernard finally comes back to China.
Now he has had a serious love affair with a
beautiful French medical student, a woman, and he is still
seeing her at this point. But after his trip through
the Amazon rainforest in Brazil, he did end up get
a job back at the French embassy in Beijing as
an archivist so that he can find Shappey Pooh and

(18:06):
his son Bertrand. He writes to her, but he's not
sure he has the right address anymore, so he tries visiting,
but he goes to all these wrong houses until a
girl is like, oh my god, you're looking for shipepoo.
Come with me right this way. She takes him to
the right address and there is Shad pay pooh. Four
years later, and Bernard goes in and gives her a

(18:27):
big old smooch.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
And she tells him times have been awful while he
was gone. Those last four years have been really difficult,
and it's really too dangerous for him to be visiting
her because everyone in the building is going to see
that there's a foreigner in her apartment. Oh, not cool,
that's not cool. And of course we know Sha is
concealing a giant secret, still living as a man, right,

(18:49):
so it's understandable that shows like, please don't get attention
on me, right, And I mean, you can't just be
coming around here and people are going to start asking
me a lot of questions. They're going to start paying
a lot more attention to me than I want. Yeah,
and she tells him we do have a son together,
he's just not here. But on Bernard's second visit, she
does show a picture of bertrand to him and he
sees he sees the kid, and he's like, oh, I'm

(19:10):
so excited. But just then loud shouting is heard right
outside the door. Sha is terrified. She opens the door
and dozens of people Russian. They start yelling and pointing
at Bernard, and one grabs an alarm clock and says
it's a radio.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
They're spine.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Oh shit, So she was not fucking around saying it
was really dangerous.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
No.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, people are jumping in all kinds of conclusions.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Right, So these three guys in army uniform show up
and they take share to her bedroom and they close
the doors. You study here while we deal with this frenchman.
And one of them does speak French, so he's like,
what are you doing here, bro? And Bernard thinks fast
and he's like, oh, well, I'm taking lessons from Sha
on the on the greatness of Chairman MoU to better

(19:54):
understand the cultural revolution.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
First, they're like, well, there's so much to say about
the great chair.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Oh well, allow me to shime in. I've got a
few things to add too. Oh yeah, oh yeah. So
they you know, they do kind of accept this story
after a minute, after Bernard really grovels and says, he's
so great. I just needed to learn more about this
awesome guy, isn't he the.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Besket if only Plans was more like China, right, what
I say?

Speaker 2 (20:19):
They're like, hey, this guy's all right, So they do
accept his story. They let him go, They send him
out of the apartment. All right, go on your way home.
Praise beat a mau. We all love him, We're glad
you do too, et cetera, et cetera. But after a
little while, Shaw has not returned, so Bernard is getting
worried that he got shut into some serious trouble.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
So he becomes a little obsessed with just seeing her
one time just to make sure she's okay. And he
knows he can't just like drop by again, right that
turned out really badly, So instead he borrows a bicycle
from the embassy and he bikes by her neighborhood just
to see even catch a glimpse of her while she's
walking around outside or something. But he realized he's being

(21:01):
followed three guys who are also on bikes and they're
just following around. So he's like, oh, he doesn't sound
like maybe the smartest guy in the world. Because he
borrowed the bike from the embassy, so it has diplomatic plate,
oh man, like street plate. So it's like, you're not
really incognito, my friend.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Maybe they're like, well, he's not a spy, because that's
the stupidest thing a spike can do.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
They need some better training. But this makes him even
more nervous. She's like, what happened to shit, I haven't
seen her now, people follow me around, like what's going on. Finally,
in October he spots her walking with an elderly lady
and he's like, so he kind of surreptitiously gets up
close to her, and he kind of whispers in her
ear that he'll wait at a certain corner of this

(21:45):
really busy intersection in the city every Thursday at two pm.
And he's like, just come there so I can see you.
I know you're okay. And for months, she takes a
bench across the street and he takes a bench on
the other side of the road, and so they're not
even in the same side of the street. They're crossed
like seven lanes of traffic.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
But they sit on the bench across from each other
again just to see each other, just to kind of
be close for a second. One time, Bernard managed to
pass a letter to Sha, but a woman saw him
do it and screamed out loud, oh my God, which
sounds like she was going through something else. I don't
know why guys like somebody would be so scary.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
I mean, I just feel like the culture at the
time people were so nervous about spies and foreigners and
stuff that, and they're such you know, they're so into
their country right that they see someone passing a note
and they're like, it's my civic responsibility to draw attention
to this.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, that's a spy.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Somebody do something.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
It's very true. It kind of gives you a good
idea of what kind of environment.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
You're dealing with.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, so Bernard's losing hope. He starts to feel like
he's never going to see Shaw or his child ever.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Well, one day in Spring called Bernard up and says
that she spoke to her boss at the Writers' Association
and received permission to teach Bernard classes about Chairman Mao
twice a week. So this scheme was still gonna work.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
Oh, just made the lie real.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah. Yeah, they remember how much they loved it when
you said you were taking classes on chairman. Now let's
do that. Let's just do it. So Bernard comes to
her house and she reads to him from a book
of Mao quotations, and he sits across from her, and
he praises Mao as a great poet, and think, oh, man,
this guy knows how to write a book. You know,
little red backed and smart. I like it. They're afraid

(23:36):
that there's microphones in the house. They really want to
put on a show. But then Bernard talks to her
out in the hallway, and over the next month or so,
he learns that their son together, Bertrand, was obviously of
mixed race, right. They knew this was half Chinese half
French child, So therefore he was not safe in Beijing.
So Sha had him sent to live near the Russian

(23:58):
border with one of the family servants.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
So that's why he ain't engaging with.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Her sun around. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
Well, then Bernard learns that she's not going to be
teaching him anymore. All of a sudden, someone else from
the Chinese government is going to take over his lesson.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
That was the whole point. Wait about I feel like
it's a movie trope too. When you walk into a
party and you're like, oh, I'm gonna I'm going to
ask this girl to dance and finally get to know her.
And she's like, oh, I was just about to start
the room here dance with my sister. Oh that's not
what I wanted.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
I don't want to dance with her.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
I wasn't really interested in dancing, right.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
So unfortunately, now Bernard actually has to take real classes,
take these real classes from someone else in the Chinese
government whose name was Kang shown okay, and they study.
Now it's all chill for a few weeks. But then
Bernard says, hey, I completely understand the Cultural Revolution.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Now I've learned enough.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Thank you, I'm ready to graduations.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Well, I think he probably don't need to take these
classes anymore.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Huh, I'm a head out. But no, He's like, you've
taught me everything. The Cultural Revolution is so amazing. I
feel like I've got a real grasp on the principles
of it and everything you're trying to do. And da
da da, And now I want to help the Chinese people.
I want to help the Cultural Revolution really succeed because
I get it so much. It's so amazing. It's definitely

(25:26):
the best way to run things, and he's suggests a
Kaying that his position at the embassy might give him
access to some useful information. Now, Bernard is a low
level we already said this, right, He's not like a diplomat, right,
He's not in some high level meetings or anything. He
doesn't get military reports, but he does get everybody's messages

(25:48):
to file, so he's like, they've already read them, but
like I can look at them too, And there is
some tantalizing stuff about the movements of Russia, the Russian army.
At this point, China does not have an ambassador in Russia,
so they're very interested in what's going on there because
they don't have anybody reporting back to them, right, and
they have a huge border with Russia. So it's like

(26:10):
I need to know what they're up to. So Bernard
starts slipping documents under his shirt or into his briefcase
at THEES day, bringing them to Kang, who makes copies
and then gives them back to Bernard, and then he
goes and slides them back in their files. No harm,
no foul, nobody'll know, right, And Bernard doesn't really feel
bad about this because Kang is like, we don't have

(26:30):
any interest in French state secrets. Okay, we don't want
to know what France is up to. We only want
to know about Russia.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
So Bernard's like, I'm not betraying my own country.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Here, so it's okay, betraying the Russians, like whatever. Well,
he does manage to start seeing Shaw more and more often,
but it's not really all that great of a time together.
She makes him these extensive shopping lists of stuff to
buy for her. She's always complaining that he doesn't spend

(26:59):
enough time with her, and he's like, because I'm always
at the store. I mean. They're having sex, but it's
as unsatisfying as ever, and Shit basically just uses her
hands and her mouth in their sexual encounters. He actually
threatened to marry the French girl at one point, and
she's like, oh, wow, so you would do that. You
would just leave and go to France and never see

(27:22):
your son again? Oh no, oh damn, I did have
a son. I guess I got some responsibilities here, even
though he hasn't even seen this kid. Right, But sometimes
things are okay between them. They still get along, They
still have a something of a relationship, and sometimes they
even talk about living in Paris together. Well, in spring

(27:43):
of nineteen seventy two, Bernard's post at the Chinese embassy
ends and he does ask Sha if she would go
to Paris with him, but Kang says not, it's impossible.
You can't get out of the country. Show you're gonna
stay right here. And Bernard's upset about this, but he
does feel like, hey, I've kind of done quite a
service to the Chinese government. I've given them hundreds of

(28:04):
documents about Russia and all this mail and everything, so
y'all kind of owe me. I guess she'll be safe.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
Here with you guys, right right, Maybe I don't have
to worry about her.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
But a year later, he goes back to see Sha
okay and knocks on the door. Sha greets him, and
she says, I've got a surprise for you. Oh, and
right behind her is Bertrand so Bernard finally meets his
kid for the first time, and he does see a
family resemblance. He's like, that's my kid, Bertrade. Amazing, and

(28:36):
the kid is about six years old at this point.
But Sha said, you know, as you've been away, the
environment in China got a little more liberal, and also
her mother was very sick and dying, and she wanted
to see your grandkid one more time. So Sha thought
it would be okay to bring Bertrand to Beijing. But
to keep up appearances, she had adopted Bertrand as Sha Pepou,

(28:58):
the man, her male self as her males adopted Bertrand
as her son. Okay, interesting, so Bertrand's Chinese name was Sha.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Dude do okay? Well, Bernard has met his son, He's
seen Sha again. It's time to return to Paris. At
this point, he has quit the diplomatic service. He hasn't
worked in months, but he's making ends meet because he's
selling rugs and other things that he bought in China
or Saudi Arabia bottom sheep there sell them back home
for a high price. And he also does have some

(29:28):
one night stands with both men and women alike. Then
he met a handsome Frenchman named Tieri Toulet. These guys
fell crazy in love together and they moved it together quickly,
and eventually, you know, the rug bunny ran out and
Bernard had to join the diplomatic service again. You know,
every time I get out. They keep following me back

(29:49):
in because I need money paycheck right, So he accepts
a posting at the French Embassy in New Orleans. Fun. Yeah,
it's the seventy it's New Orleans. They're going to gay
bars and clubs. They're having a great time for about
two years.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
But then it was nineteen seventy seven, and by now
China is in the news a lot because the Gang
of Four who were kind of in charge of everything,
or the old guard they had fallen. Everything's changing in China.
It's another chaotic time, and Bernard is getting really worried
about Sha and Bertrand because he's like, all the people
I knew there, they might not be there anymore. Who knows, Like,

(30:29):
I don't know what the purge did. So finally, one
night he confesses everything to Tieri. He tells him I
actually have this woman back in China. We have a
kid together, and he asks, can I bring Shah back
to Paris and we all live together in a minage.
That's my ideal situation is that I have both my
wife and my husband at the same time, same place.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
My wife, my husband, my son. You know, it's all
about me and everybody else just kind of has to
join in on this thing.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
And Tierri's like, oh, okay, he's not really in the idea.
But he's like, I mean, I guess you're married, So
what am I going to do?

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Well that day you find out your husband has a
wife and a kid, you know, what can you do?

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Okay? Adapt He's like, I don't want to break up
with you, right, I mean? So Bernard asks about getting
a job or diplomatic posting in the Far East so
he can get closer to shut and he gets offered
this real shit job in Mongolia. Oh it is the
smallest French embassy. Everyone thinks it's the most miserable place
in the world. Oh man, that's all you're hearing about this.

(31:31):
But it's only a thirty six hour train ride from Beijing.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Is that all?

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Thirty six hours is so long?

Speaker 2 (31:38):
Ass? Yeah? I guess it's closer than Paris.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
It's closer to the New Orleans, New Orleans.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
So Bernard's like, great, I'll take the job.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Well, security at this Mongolian job sucks. There is no
official embassy. The diplomats work out of hotel. Since it's
such a small staff, Bernard has not only his job,
but he doubles as the ambassador's secretary. So he's like, yeah,
you gotta file this paperwork, but you gotta do my
drag cleaning. You gotta give me a ride to wherever

(32:06):
I gotta be in the morning. Make my coffee. I said,
two creams, no sugars. Well, on his way to the gig,
he stopped over in Beijing to visit you, and he
tells her get in touch with Kang. Let him know
we can get back on that espionage horse. And I'm
go ahead and slip you some more info from my
new job. Let Kang no se Yeah that sounds old,

(32:29):
Kang boy.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, but the.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Communications at his new job are super boring. All they
get is like, there's Mongolian plans for a staging of
the opera Carmen Ooh, big secrets. Kang's like, wow, so
glad I know that you're really changing the global power
map here, buddy.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Thanks, I'm I'm gonna elevate this right to the top.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah. Or he digs up quote a request from the
ambassador for ten 'bdifiers and a cheese tray. My god,
how did you ever get this sensitive information rights?

Speaker 1 (33:07):
What are they up to?

Speaker 2 (33:10):
We've got our top guys on it.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
They're clearly planning to cut something.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
So basically he's got nothing to offer Kang at first,
but Kang is still like, look, there's no such thing
as bad intelligence, so whatever you can tell us about
Russia is still super important because China is threatened by
Soviet revisionism, where like, they don't want Russia defining what
communism is, right, I want their own thing to kind
of be the global idea of communism. So Bernard is

(33:39):
still in the lookout. He's like, don't worry, I know
how to look past the cheese trays and the operas.
I'm gonna find some good dirt on Russia.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Meanwhile, he asks for a visa for his cousin TIERI
visit him.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
We're close, You're very very close.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Cousin Tierri. He also set up a court of like
young Mongolian students who like became like his besties. I
guess his little followers in Mongolia because they lived in
pretty deprived conditions until Bernard came along. At the university,
they're only allowed a three minute shower once a week,
and it's like the matron, you know, is standing outside

(34:18):
the shower controlling the water, so at three minutes she
just shuts it off. Oh so, but Bernard is like,
you can use my bathroom whenever you want. And they
don't have a lot of good food, but he has
the best food and French champagne and he just lets
them like rate his fridge whenever he wants. And I
don't care how good your food is. If you got
college students around, they're gonna come over for that. But

(34:39):
the best thing about it was that there was nothing
sexual in his invitations. The students were never propositioned or anything.
He just liked having folks around. You know, this guy's again,
he's a bit of a kind of a party guy, right.
He wants people, he wants friends. He wants to be
out at parties and in the middle of like nowhere Mongolia.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
And as she's spending time with these guys, he's like,
whoof you get a three minute shower once? It's a
week and I'm having a hard time hanging out with
you guys, So why do you come over to rinse
off once in a while?

Speaker 1 (35:06):
I needed to use my bathroom.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Now she can love this French soap I got. Well,
you know, Bernard also can't be tied down. So while
he's trying to figure out how he's gonna get Sha
back to Paris, he does have a couple of affairs,
one with a married woman, but quote that doesn't deter him.
He has a formula for married women. You invite the
woman to lunch, which is a respectable meal. Then you

(35:29):
invite her back to your apartment for coffee, which is
merely polite. There you play the bittersweet love songs of
Jacques prel and sit beside her on the sofa and
take her in your arms. When she says no, you
ignore her because she means yes. By six she has
returned to her husband. Wow, Bernard, what a system you've got.

(35:51):
She had a problem you straight up include when she
says no, she means yes.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
O Lord, what a ridiculous ula. You just say, take
it on lunch and you turn a coffee, and then
you put on the bittersweet love songs of Jacques Brea.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
All amidst all these affairs, his partner Tieri came to
visit him, but after he left, Bernard had a little
fling with a Polish girl. Oh so, just a lot
of opportunities for him here in Mongolia.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Right, I guess I am happy that he has really
embraced his bisexuality. At this point, the guys decided, you
know what, it don't need to be ashamed of liking
sex with men, right, I also like sex with women.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Now, while all this is going on, he is visiting
Beijing every six weeks with documents from the embassy. He
gets thirty six hours in the city, so as long
as the train ride, it's just enough time to buy
things for the Mongolian students and for Sha. Everybody's always
given Bernard a damn shopping list. He socialized with the diplomats,

(36:55):
he rendezvous with Kang, but of course Shah is getting
mad at him that he doesn't spend more time with
her when he's in Beijing. And now he does try
to get some better info for Kang, you know, some
more sexy stuff that they can use. But it's like
always dumb shit that he's picking up. He's got stuff
about like how East Germany built a meat processing plants,

(37:16):
oh no, or how the French ambassador feels that the
fedoras that Mongolian politicians wear make them look like al Capone.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
These Deep States secret here, I guess we have.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
To write a report every day about what you're doing.
You're just like nothing, I mean, nothing's going. It's Mongolia.
It's the middle of nowhere. The university students smell better.
I don't know, but Kang keeps telling him, don't go
out of your way, all right, it's too dangerous for
you to like try to get sensitive stuff. So whatever

(37:50):
you come across, that's fine. You don't have to go
out of your you know, don't have to go the
extra mile.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Right. In nineteen eighty two, Bernard submitted an official request
for a visa for Sure to come to a three
month cultural lecture tour in France. It's like, how about
she comes here and tells us how great Communism is day.
But when she arrives in Paris with their son, bertrand
Bernard is in Belize on another posting, so Tiery has

(38:18):
to look after Sha and Bertrand it's like, oh, okay,
I guess I'll spend my weeks caring for my boyfriend's
girlfriend and her son.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Okay, right, I don't even want them here.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
So Sha and Bertrand move in with Thierry, and he
knows the secret that Sha is really a woman. But she,
of course, she has to stay disguised as a man
even while they're in Paris, so that no one in
China hears anything suspicious. Secret can't get out. Finally, Bernard
returns to parish. Tiery is like, oh my god, thank god,
take your girlfriend, get her out of my face, and

(38:51):
he does. He goes and starts introducing around to all
his friends, but he doesn't introduce her around. He introduces
him around because of course they don't want this sea
getting out. Sha does have to go back to China. Eventually,
they don't reveal her secret and she's got their son
with them, but Bernard introduces her as Bertrand's uncle. So

(39:12):
Sha starts networking, getting to know people in Paris. She
ends up working in opera again and even gets into
two TV shows. So monsieur Sha, this fella, this uncle
is actually getting pretty famous in Paris.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, you know what that means. It means attention, right,
And so these French surveillance agents they realize that shape
Poo is living in Bernard's apartment and they're like, huh,
so you must have met while in your diplomatic service,
So that means that might be a government employee of China.
That's a big problem. They need to, you know, have

(39:49):
clearance to have a government person run around. They don't
want same issue as in China. You can't have somebody
run around work with the government that you don't know about.
Maybe pass the secrets.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
They don't want since he worked in the garn in China,
they don't want his Chinese friends coming back because those
guys are probably also government, right.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
I think they're just like, we just need to like
clear him, you know what I mean. I get asked
some questions. So in nineteen eighty three they bring Bernard
in for questioning and ask him what's up with this guy?
What's your relationship? What's the deal? And two days later
they charge Bernard with Espiona. Oh shit, and then they
go see Sha Pey poop. Now Sha is like, oh shit,

(40:26):
I'm in trouble. Starts complaining about a history of heart problems.
It says, I'm real sick. So they're like, great, we'll
bring a doctor in, but she won't allow an examination.
When the doctor comes in, so they're like okay, and
she finally says, okay, I'll tell you the real truth.
I'm a woman. I was raised as a man, you know,

(40:46):
explain to them that she never knew Bernard was involved
in espionage and that has completely got nothing to do
with me. I only taught him classes about chairman.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Now, my friend Bernard espionage, how weird. He's like a
male clerk, what does he know?

Speaker 1 (41:03):
So five days later, the French arrests Sha as well,
and the judge says, we're going to give Sha a
medical examination, prove this whole story about being a woman
in a man's disguise.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Well, on July eighth, in prison, Bernard heard that Sha
is in the same prison as him, and he's like, Oh,
that's weird because of course I'm in a male prison
and Sha is really a woman, So I guess they
don't know that yet. They still think it's a man.
They just put her in here whatever. Both of them
are escorted by police back to Bernard's apartment for a search.

(41:38):
Tierry is there too, and while they're at the apartment
with the police and everybody, Bernard asks Sha to marry him.
Oh he thinks that'll keep her safe, right, Like, oh,
if we're for a husband and wife, they can't charge
a husband in mine with the same crime.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
It's like the Blues method always worse.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
I got the worst fucking lawyer. Well, anyway, he just
does think this, this will help if they're married, if
everybody thinks they're getting married. But she says it's too late,
we can't do this. And on July thirteenth, Bernard was
sitting in his prison cell listening to the news on
the radio, and there's a bulletin that talks about the

(42:20):
accused spy should pay Pooh, a man who is disguised
as a woman, who is actually a man. The announcer
on the radio said, quote, he is a man. So
totally blows Bernard's lid right off the top of his head,

(42:42):
absolutely bakes his baguettes. Uh, completely unravels his beret. I
don't know cargo. Yes, his croissants are toasted. He's like,
what should put should pay? Pooh? Is really a man
this whole time? No way. Well, look, we've got a

(43:04):
little bit more to this story, and we're gonna tell
you everything that's happened here and try and make it
all make sense. So stick around right off this break
and we'll be right back. Welcome back, everybody. Let's figure
out what the hell's going on here with pe poop, I.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Am all turned around. So this is a man dressed
like a woman who's actually a man. So it turns
out that when the French gave Sha the medical examination,
they had been given a set of rules, like some
things to figure out.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Okay, here's your checklist exactly.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
And this is the check The following is the checklist. Quote.
Determine if the prisoner, in addition to his masculine organs,
has external female organs. If he does, not, determine whether
he might have had female organs in the past. Determine
whether the prisoner shows any trace of surgical intervention of
the sexual organs. If so, make a report of the

(44:00):
nature of that intervention. Determine whether the prisoner, as he
has claimed, has the ability to withdraw his penis and
testicles into his body cavity. And finally, examine the prisoner's
anis for signs of sodomization.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Damn, examining my anis is a sign of sodomization.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
You don't know about withdrawing your That's like it's like
a go go gadget thing to which, well, I have
heard of penis into your cavity.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Drag Queen's being able to do this. Oh okay, uh yeah.
I had a drag queen friend who was like, this
is how you can actually those up inside. I mean
that's from whence they came, you know, I guess so,
which sounds like something I'm not going to experiment with myself.
But more power to you if that's your superpower.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Also, what a checklist? I know, you know, the doctors
that got it were like, I went to a medical
school for this, you.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Know, eight years of university.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Eight years.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
So the doctors do their little check and determine that
Sha is a man with very typical male sexual organs,
no signs of surgical intervention, no signs of sodomization, and
despite all of his talk about heart problems, they say,
this guy's got a totally normal heartbeat.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Nothing wrong there, Everything looks fine.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
So Sha says, after this, okay, all right, let me
explain everything to you guys. The New York Times article
quotes it for us in words that will just borrow
from them. Yeah, and if talk about anatomical manipulation bothers
you you know, I don't know, plug your ears for
a second or something, they say, quote easily smoothly. He

(45:43):
pushes his testicles up into his body cavity. The skin
of the scrotal sack hangs slack like curtains. The man
now pushes his penis between his legs towards his back,
bisecting the skin of the scrotum, and squeezes his legs
tightly together. The penis is hidden while the skin of

(46:03):
the scrotum resembles the vaginal lips beneath a triangle of
pubic hair pushed between the empty scrotle sack. The penis
has also created a small cavity so that shallow penetration
is possible. Wow, So now we learn about what this
sort of weird, uncomfortable sex that Bernard and show we're having,

(46:28):
and why Bernard didn't really know and why should eventually
was just like let me just use my hand's mouth
here for both of us.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Much better. Yeah, okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
You know, in a in a dark bedroom, when when
emotions are high and everybody's trying to have a good time,
you can miss a lot.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
I guess, especially if you know she's like turn all
the lights off. Yeah, you know, our guide your where
you need to go, and it'll be very specific every time.
And now, of course I'm the radio. All they say
is that Sha is a man. They don't explain all
the squirtle curtains or whatever. But Bernard is not believing this,
of course, He's like, no, I can't be okay, I've

(47:10):
known her for years now decades and we have a
kid together, and like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Right?

Speaker 1 (47:15):
So they're interrogated separately for six months, and then they
finally get interrogated together. Oh and Bernard hears Sha say
with his own mouth that he is a man. He
also hears Shah say quote, I never told Bernard I
was a woman. I only let it be understood that
I could be a woman.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Wow. So the old uh you know, I'd never technically
and told you trick. Come on, another blue family legal trick.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
I see, maybe yeah, probably. And then he also says
that Bertrand is not his son, but of course, but
he also does say that through artificial insemination, Bertrand is
Bernard's son.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Oh whoa, which I got quite like, so I saved it.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Okay, that'sn't like Bernard's like, you like, what how did
you just anyway throw this?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Well it's shallow cavity, uh, I mean.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
You know, scraped into a vial.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
I don't throw that in the freezer and then take
it to the lab and we'll make.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
A kid in a I mean, what a weird, elaborate
thing to do.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
Okay, okay, Well, for eight months people have been telling
Bernard that Sha was really a man, but he had
refused to believe it. After a second interrogation at court,
they were sitting together in a holding cell waiting for
police to transport them back to prison, and Bernard says, quote,
so it's true you're a man, and Sha says, quote,

(48:43):
of course. Oh so, Bernard says, show me, and Sha
pulls down his pants to prove it. And when Bernard asks,
why didn't you tell me this whole time? I mean,
I'm bisexual. Come on, like, I don't have a problem.
This would have been fine, okay, and Shaw says, quote,
oh there was no time.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
There was no time when I've known you for a decade,
when I've been buying you shit every fucking thirty six hours.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Oh real quick, before you go to the grocery store,
I'm actually a man.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
Okay, Like, why even bother with the lie in the
first place? Oh so weird, So Chris Bernard is devastated
and very depressed. Again, most sure Shah is famous in France.
Oh yeah, yeah, and so this is a really big deal.
Even if it was, you know, it probably would be
anyway because it's like an espionage thing. But this is

(49:37):
with a famous person doing espionage, so it's like all
over the country everybody knows about it. Bernard's a bit
of a laughing stock, and so he's really depressed. And
then he hears that Shah gets released from prison to
go await trial at home because of his heart problems.
Oh the quote unquote heart problem. Right, so he's like, man,

(49:57):
Shug gets to go like hang out at home. Then
another blow when blood tests come back proving that Bertrand
is not Bernard's son at all.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Oh man, no relation.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
Poor Bernard was very upset and he decided he would
rather be dead. So he pulled the razor blade out
of his shaving razor and he slit his own throat.
But he survived. He did not go deep enough, I guess.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah. Well, in May of nineteen eighty six, they finally
have this trial, and lawyers argue that Bernard didn't even
give the Chinese government any substantial info it would be
stupid to throw the book at him. Just be a
waste of time. You know, what are we even talking
about here? Some cheese plates exactly.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
They're reading this stuff.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Like come on, come on, Oh, Mongolia is doing Carmen.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Like, okay, they wear fedoras, who cares, what's the big deal.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
And the lawyers say that Shah could have escaped to
China while awaiting trial if he was, you know, such
an incredible spy, right, so you know, we let him
stay at home and he doesn't break out, so he
can't really be some superspy that we're all making him
out to be. So at the end of the trial,
both of them get sentenced to six years in prison.
But in April of nineteen eighty seven, just the next year,

(51:11):
Sha got a presidential pardon because his imprisonment is an
embarrassment to the Chinese government and it was damaging international
relations between China and France, and this case wasn't serious
enough for those kinds of consequences to be acceptable. This
is not worth what we're going through.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
So, right, if you were selling French state secrets or
something really important, sure, but.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
So Sha enjoys this notoriety, ends up staying in Paris.
I've made so many friends here and I got all
these connections. And he returned to the opera to perform.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Bernard got his pardon, his presidential pardon four months later.
I guess they were like, you can stay for a minute, think.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
About what you've done.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, and again, you know, he's a bit of a
laughing stock in Paris. But he ended up living contentedly
with Thiery. Ok So Tierry's still there. I'm happy he
didn't break.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Up with it. That guy stuck it out.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
I thought, this is a very easy going gentleman like that.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
Worth it. My god.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
There's no contact between Bernard and Sha or Bertrand who.
Of course, Sha had adopted back in China, so that's
still his adoptive.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Sh So the adoption was real.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
The adoption was real.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
I guess he really needed a cover for this pregnancy
or whatever. But anyway, in nineteen eighty eight, their story
was turned into the famous play M Butterfly by David
Henry Hwang. Actually B. D Wong played the part of Well,
the part that was inspired by Sha.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
B d Wong I know, phenomenal actor, great actor. If
you might know him as the scientist in Jurassic Park,
doctor Wu what did we just see him? And oh
he was in Gotham. He was the other doctor Strange,
the DC mister Strange in Gotham. A scientist, that's right,
that's a bad scientist anyway, many more things. But of

(52:57):
course B. D.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
Wong and like Sha, doesn't give a lot of inner views.
He prefers to be sort of a mysterious, you know,
kind presence. But Bernard cooperated with author Joyce Wadler on
a full biography of his story called Liaison. It was
published in nineteen ninety three, and he's not as bitter
as he could be about the whole thing. He's quoted
as saying, quote, when I believed it, it was a

(53:19):
beautiful story. So I guess he I don't know, maybe
those four months were good for him to, like, right.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Think about what he'd done.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
Yeah, getting well, there's very and I feel like I
would be very mad. So I don't know. Just I
guess he figured out, you know whatever, no no harm
really came from it. I suppose.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
I mean, it's so nice that he's able to take
something positive from it. I guess. I mean, you know
what the emotions were real, you know that kind of
thing is like, maybe that person didn't really love me,
maybe that person was lying to me the whole time.
But I was a person in love, you know. I
had this amazing magical experience of whatever he's He technically
got his adventure right, going all over the world. Maybe
it wasn't as fantastic as he imagined it would be.

(53:59):
But the guys lived a pretty adventurous life for a
long time there.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
That's very true.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
So what about the young boy Bertrand? Or should do
do well? He explained the mystery of where he came
from in his own statement to the police. He was
from China's Huiger minority, and he said that he had
actually been sold by his mother. He said, quote, it
was not that my mother did not love me. We
were starving. And from Joyce Wadler's two thousand and nine

(54:27):
obituary for Sha, it said that at the time of
SHA's death in two thousand and nine, Bertrand was living
in Paris and had three sons of his own.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Man Bernard brought both of them over from China. He
had brought like his biggest mistake over from China. I
had to like share the city.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Had a great time living it up in Paris.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
Now.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
In that obituary, that same obituary, it was reported that
Sha Pepoo disliked answering questions about the sexual specifics of
the affair.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Sure, as many people do.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Most people don't like. But in a nineteen eighty eight interview,
he said, quote, I used to fascinate both men and women.
What I was and what they were didn't matter. I mean,
I guess, but it sort of does matter to poor Bernard.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Well, you know, I guess it doesn't matter if you
know it doesn't matter. But if you're deliberately misleading.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Right exactly.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
I think that's if someone's like, are you a man
or are you a woman? You can absolutely say like
does it matter to you? What difference does it make?
And that person can then say you're right, fuck it,
I think you're cool, I think you're hot. Who cares?
Or you can say, well, personally, it does matter to me,
and it's something that you know I would I would
like to have disclosed in some way or another. I mean,

(55:41):
maybe you don't identify as a man or a woman,
it may matter to someone else for their sexual preferences
in terms of how you identify.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah, and I think too, it's like so odd to
make up this lie, Yeah, especially because Bernard really didn't
seem to care, particularly if you're a male or female.
I mean especially later on. You know, at the time
he met Sha, he was very much looking for a
woman to have an affair with. Yeah, but later he's like,
you know, I'm with Thierry you know when, and women alike.

(56:12):
I don't have no problem.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Well, I think that's what I'm saying too, is like
it's not so much that the identity is important. It
could very well not be important to anyone. But the
deliberate secret keeping exact's sketchy, that's not honest. And that
gets into like consent issues, right, Like I lied to
you about who I am, and then we had a
sexual relationship. Well, then I didn't really have a sexual

(56:35):
relationship with the person I thought I was. That's deceitful.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Yeah, that's true. And it sounds like the plan here
was for Sha to I guess, to pretend to be
a woman, so the baby thing would happen and it
would like tie Bernard to China. I see, I'm assuming
that that was maybe the idea was that it would
be like, oh, if you have a kid here, you'll
keep coming back. You'll want to like take care of us. Okay,

(57:00):
you know, but in some ways it just feels like
really bored spies trying to have fun. Spy thing happened, right,
They made up this honeypot with this guy who really
can't get him anything exciting.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
So you're saying, just to clarify that she was put
up to this by the Chinese government, is the implication?

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Yes, I believe. So it looks like it was a
honeypot trap. It was supposed to be. This sexy woman
comes in and you fall for her, and then she
starts pulling your strings for it.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Which I mean just goes to show the elaborate nature
of espionage and how in depth something might be just
to learn from one guy, like when Mongolia is getting
a cheese plate. You know, the investment. I don't feel
like the payoff was worth the investment, but I guess
you have to throw that much stuff at the wall
to see where sick.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
And maybe they even start with low level because they're like, well,
you'll get promoted one day and you'll already be in
my pocket. But I imagine that was maybe the idea,
and they didn't realize they were dealing with somebody kind
of unambitious, like you're not not trying to like I'm
a diplomat. He's like, I just want to go party.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
I didn't realize they overestimated they were working with here.
I guess, so that's funny. I mean yeah, I mean,
I guess that makes sense. Like we're going to give
you a Chinese sun. You're going to really feel like that.
The more you progress here, probably the deeper we're going
to pull you in, exactly to the point where suddenly
he's like chief ambassador to China from France and they're like, yeah,

(58:26):
you're basically Chinese at this point, right, And like.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Even this stuff like keeping him away from Shah so much,
and like the following him on bikes and all this
stuff might have added to it, like he would feel, oh,
she you know, she's in real danger and I have
to do. You know, I'm assuming all of that was
completely fabricated.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Amazing, amazing, how expensive you.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Know, Oh my god, I mean, spy shit is for real,
Like you say, you do so much work, you know,
to maybe get one nugget of a donation that may
or may not ever be useful.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
That's the other thing. What an embarrassing flop for Chinese
intelligence because even even when he got caught and the
French government was like, yeah, this really was nothing. This
is just we're only punishing you because you were so stupid,
and China's like, wow, we really really kind of bungled
that one, right.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
And I guess Show was like, I ain't going back
to China.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
Yeah right. I wonder if Show would have been in
danger back in China because maybe he revealed too much
once he got caught, you know that once the gig
was up, it was like, yeah, don't come home.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
I wondered that too, Or if he was just like
I'm in Paris and it's like more fun. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Yeah, I'm making it as an opera star. True.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
I wasn't doing opera in China, And.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
So that part of the story must have been true. Yes,
the butterfly story.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
That I think was true.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
I guess that's the best way to build a fake
character is you got to include a lot of truth
in there that's so true.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
You got to build it around a nuggetive truth that
you can have that ring of sincerity.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Yeah, What I love is that Bernard is introducing everyone
to Sha and be like, this is a man, and
everyone else is like, yeah, that's a man. And Bernard
is the only one who thinks this guy's a woman,
and he doesn't know he's He's the only one who's.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Wrong, I know. But then I am like, okay, so
then show why bother telling the French government that you
are a woman. Of course they're gonna like did he
really think they weren't gonna make to verify that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
I think he was like, oh, yeah, well you're gonna
have to get a doctor in here, and they're like,
we've actually got one outside. Yeah, And it was like,
oh shit. In China that would have taken six weeks.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
They're like, you know, this is France. Have you ever
heard of impotency court? You're one looking at your genitals.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
When Bernard was notified at the time, he was living
in a French nursing home and he was notified of
SHA's death, Bernard just said quote, he did so many
things against me that he had no pity for. I
think it's stupid to play another game now and say
I am sad. The plate is clean. Now I am.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
Free Oh wow, So I kind of think that's sad.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
I mean, how long is were they together? And Bernard's
like putting all of this time and energy and love
into a fake, completely fake relationship and he didn't even
get to build a bond with Bertrand, which I guess
is kind of a blessing in disguise because they ended
up not having a relationship at all. But I'm just like,
man that you know, to just think this whole time

(01:01:32):
that you have someone a kid with somebody and you're
you're working so hard to keep them safe and supplied
and comfortable and whatever, to and then be like, I
feel like a fucking moron. I'm a total patsy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Yeah, And I mean for all the for all the
adventure that he got, Yeah, I mean to know that
the underlying motivation for it was false. I mean, you
know it was a total lie, and that you did that, yeah,
that that you loved this person and that they clearly
did not love you back the way they told you
they did. That that hurts no matter what the circumstances.
And then you add that it's all about like you know,

(01:02:06):
super high governmental espionage bullshit. That's just insult to injury,
and then on.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Top of that, the friendship wasn't even real. Yeah, so
he's like, even if you're not a woman and we're
not in love and whatever, that was my friend. That
was my best friend. If we recall, he said I
could tell him things I could not tell anyone else,
Like that's how he felt about him. So just to
find out that that's completely fake would just be really.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Heartbreaking, right, And I imagine should going back to Kang
the Chinese government and just being like, well, I found
out this guy used to play hoop and stick at
his boarding school. Like I don't know, he's telling me
all his secrets, but it's not like there's state secrets.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
You know, Yeah, I got nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
How long do I have to keep doing this?

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Like, you know what, let's take a pregnancy. This is
going to be the thing that does it. He'll be like,
I got to provide for my family and get a
better job at the embassy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
I don't know, I do wonder show. We can assume
Shaw was happy to help his government, right, I can
assume that, yeah, but also we don't know. I mean, like,
you know, how much of this show was like can
I can I get away from this dude, is this
really going to be my whole life is pretending to
this guy's secret wife?

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
You know how long agot to keep this up for
that's got to be frustrating too.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
I mean that's very true.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
You know, definitely not the victim here, but probably a
victim at least of you know, of government manipulation. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
I do have so many questions. I wish there was
a little more information about Shah yeah and his like
real background, because was he placed at the embassy teaching
the wives, you know, as like a lay in the
groundwork for a honeypot thing or was he actually doing that?
And then when he's like, oh, I made friends with

(01:03:50):
this guy here, right, the government then was like, oh hey,
well let's use that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
I'm just wondering what the timeline is. I wonder if
government work.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
I wonder if Shaw wasn't very good at it, and
they were and they were like, okay, go teach embassy
wives until you make friends with an ambassador and then
you're going to seduce him and tell him you're a woman.
And like three months in he cannot make friends with
an ambassador until this one, like loser comes up He's
like I made friends with a clerk and they're like,

(01:04:19):
fuck whatever, fine, take it. He's like their lowest agent.
He's like really trying to prove himself because he's bungled
all the last three of his cases.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Damn shu.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Yeah, well this is what you get. You got your
head in the clouds. All you ever think about is
opera and the story of the Butterfly Wild.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
What a ride?

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Yes, oh my god, he.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Was on a roller coaster this time for real. Well,
thank you again to Katie for this amazing suggestion. This
was really fun to learn about. I wish I did
have a spy here to kind of explain that that
process right, But I feel like we nailed it. We
probably got it right. But you guys, let us know
what you think. We always want to know what you
think and what other stories we should be doing, So

(01:05:03):
reach out to us. Our email is redict romance at
gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
That's right. You can find us on Instagram. I'm at
O Great, it's Eli.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
I'm at Diana Mite Boom.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
And the show is at redict Romance. Follow along and
send us for your reviews and your thoughts, and we
can't wait to catch you all at the next episode.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Thanks so much for spending time with us today. We
love you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
Bye, Solong friends, it's time to go. Thanks for listening
to our show. Tell your friends, nabors, uncles, and dance
to listen to our show, Ridiculous Romance