December 28, 2021 • 22 mins
One look at the usual dysfunction of our criminal legal system drew the attention and weight of this driven financier and philanthropist to engage and strategize for the biggest return on investment.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Last season on Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam, we spoke
with Mike novo Grats about Galaxy Gives, the philanthropic arm
of the Novograts family, and their efforts to disrupt the
money bail system. Today we are rereleasing that interview to
highlight Mike's tireless advocacy for criminal legal system reform, as
well as our gratitude for having such a reliable partner
(00:24):
in that fight, which brings to mind Mike's family mantra
when you can help help and you can always help. Hi.
I'm Jason Flam Here on Righteous Convictions. I speak with
some of today's most prominent and active agents of change,
people who see the wrong in the world and are
(00:44):
driven to make it right. Today's guest has done phenomenally
well in the world of finance and brings that same
instinct to his transformative work in the criminal legal reform movement.
If we're gonna be contributors to criminal justice reform movement,
we really need to understand it, and so we spent
about three months mapping out what the system looked like.
In that journey, which had the visiting prisons in jails,
(01:07):
going to Europe and look at their prisons and jails.
Everything I looked at kissed me off. I only lose
my temper around fairness and it just some so God
am unfair. Underwriting a nationwide cash bail fund was just
the beginning for this financier whose strategic philanthropy has already
had a massive impact. Hedge fund manager and righteous philanthropist
(01:31):
Mike no regrads right now on Righteous Convictions. Welcome back
to Righteous Convictions. This is my podcast where I have
(01:51):
the privilege of interviewing some of the most important, influential
and interesting change makers in the world. And today no exception.
Today I'm going to be interviewing Mike nova Grats, my
friend and somebody I really look up to. I gotta
be honest. So Mike, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks
a lot, Jason. So, Mike, I could spend the entire
podcast just reading your resume, but it would probably be
(02:14):
then you wouldn't get to talk. But it's really crazy.
I mean, for a guy who is the captain of
the Princeton wrestling team while pursuing a degree in economics,
that's a pretty unusual combination. Growing up in Virginia, spending
time in the New Jersey National Guard, Goldman Sachs, a
hedge fund called Fortress Investments, and finally now Galaxy Investments,
where you focused on cryptocurrency. But more importantly, you're a
(02:37):
philanthropist with a really strong point of view, not only
mission oriented, also personally engaged in a way that few
others are. But before we get into all that, I
want to hear about your growing up. You know, so
I grew up in a big Catholic family, middle class.
My dad was in the army. I'm one of seven kids.
I had a very aspirational mother. I think she thought
(02:59):
our family would be the Kennedy's because she named my
sister Jackie, my brother Robert, me Michael, my next brother John. Yeah,
there was a bit of a pattern. She swears it
wasn't the Kennedy's, but she wanted a lot for her kids.
You know. We grew up in a good public school
neighborhood and everyone was Yeah, I used the word aspirational,
even though it was middle class. You know, was aspirational
(03:21):
middle class. I think I learned from my parents a
really simple message which permeates how I lived my life
and our philanthropy. If you can help help. It was
literally that simple, and you can always help. But we
grew up going to the church and you know, serving
at a suit kitchen and my dad coaching the soccer team,
or my mom teaching c c D, which was the
(03:44):
Catholic Catechism that you used to get your a Catholic kid.
That just kind of was in the DNA of our family.
And so every one of my siblings as a philanthropist
in their own right, some of its community based, some
of its friend based, some of its strategic. Not a sister,
John Poland, who you know, runs this thing called the
Acumen Fund. So like philanthropy and talking about changing the world,
(04:06):
you know, started when she was fourteen and I was ten,
and we used to laugh, how are you going to
change the world? You know, She's gotta start now, and
I was like, I gotta make a lot of money first.
And so the day Fortress went public and we had
stupid amounts of money at least on paper. My first
call with my sister, she said, okay, it's by time
you start. I mean, that's great. And of course Fortress
(04:27):
is the hedge fund that put you in a position
to really make a difference. And now you've moved on
to your own fund, Galaxy Investments, and your strategic philanthropy
through Galaxy Gives. And it's interesting because you have a
really diverse set of interest. I'm talking about the Acumen Fund,
n y U LA and Going Medical Center, Princeton Varsity
Club School for Strings, the Jazz Foundation. I mean, obviously
(04:49):
music is very near and dear to my heart my
whole being as well, but even more so is your
work in the criminal legal reform space. Now, through Galaxy Gives,
you found a way to use your money to attack
the problem from several different angles in order to have
the greatest impact. And we're going to get into what
that means in a minute, but I want to know
(05:10):
how did you first notice become aware of the need
for change in our criminal legal system. Kind of idiosyncratic,
My daughter Anna decided she was going to get a
summer job for the Bronx Defenders, and she in the
summer would go up to the Bronx and was a investigator,
(05:31):
and she was a soft horn, all the five ft
pounds probably, and she would intrepidly march around the Bronx
with one of her partners and take statements from more
data owners and look at the tapes and and I
was like, you can't really be, you know, an investigator here,
a summer intern. She's like that, I'm all they got,
and that intriguement, you know, through Anna, I met Robin Steinberg.
(05:55):
She's just the force of nature. And then I went
to a an event. As luck would have it, I
owned a lot of cryptocurrencies in two thousand and seventeen
and they went sky high and it put me in
a different financial position to be able to contribute. And
I went to a conference that my brother in law
throw called Audacious, where people would come up with audacious
(06:15):
ideas and philanthropists would either fund them or not fund them.
And I heard Robin's pitch. It was really a nine
minute pitch on the injustice of cash bail. And it
was literally a very quick and intuitive decision. You know,
I made my my far largest philanthropic contribution to help
stand up the bail project, taking this idea that heard
(06:36):
her husband and a bunch of people. And I know, Jason,
you had contributed a lot, had started in New York
and taken it nationally. That's what really got me into
criminal justice. I heard a story I felt I could
help is that what my mother said, if you can help, help,
I was in a position to help, and help you did.
And to clarify the bail project that Robin was pitching out,
Audacious was, as Mike explained, a nationwide expansion of the
(06:59):
Bronx Freed Fund that Robin began a decade earlier with
my help, and it's great that this interview is happening.
On the heels of our episode was Scott Heckinger, who
similarly started the Brooklyn Community Bail Fund as well as
his new organization Zealous, in which again, Mike, you know
you've made a very smart investment. And I use that
word investment because that's how I think about how you
(07:21):
approach this endeavor, Because once you got involved in the
criminal legal reform space, you really did your homework in
order to create a strategy that would get the biggest
well let's call it a return on investment. I mean,
you didn't just write a check. You know. I realize
you can't just be an idiot and like plunge into
something and not know anything about it. And so I
(07:43):
hired this awesome lieutenant I got named Billy Waterson. You
know well, uh, and said Billy, if we're going to
be contributors to criminal justice reform movement, we really need
to understand it. And so we spent about three months
mapping out on a big giant piece of paper what
the system look like. Who was funding what, from pre
(08:05):
trial stuff to death penalty to food in prisons, almost
every vertical probation and parole. And we were meeting leaders
of the different organizations and we kind of mapped out
what we thought was right and wrong and who was
funded and who wasn't funded. In that journey, which hadn't
be visiting prisons and jails have made me go to
(08:27):
to Europe and look at their prisons and jails. It
just got me angry and angry. Everything I looked at
kissed me off. And you know, I think when I
look back at my life, only lose my temper around
fairness and it just you so God them unfair. And
so we started Galax Leaders, We started funding lots of
(08:47):
other groups. I John the Reform Alliance and Colone just
has become a major part of my life and I've
received so much more the stories, the emotion, the understanding
that the learning from all these men and women that
I've met that have suffered immensely and somehow come out
the other side whole you beads miraculously has been a
(09:10):
real blessing, and so I am more optimistic than most
in the field that changes possible. I think George Floyd
that tragedy reopened people's eyes up and I think it
opened window where we can reimagine how things are done.
And so we're doubling down, not back in the way.
(09:38):
As an investor, I always try to invest in ideas
I believe in and leaders because you could have great idea,
what you don't have the right leadership, nothing's going to happen.
And Robin just exuded competence and confidence and purpose and
so she was easy to invest in, you know, I
(09:59):
mean she was running the Brox Defenders. Robin Steinberg told
me how she had thousands of clients being sent to
Rikers Island every year just because they couldn't post bail
for these nood nick nothing offenses. And I'm talking about trespassing,
jumping a turnstile, smoking a joint, open container violations, even
riding a bike on a sidewalk. And for our audience
(10:23):
who may not know how bail works, basically, when you
get picked up for a low level crime, you have
to post bail that will be returned to you upon
your return to court. But if you can't pay, if
you can't post a bail, then you're held in jail
pre trial instead. And this is supposedly allegedly to ensure
(10:43):
that you won't flee, But that's a myth because if
you think about it, if you're a person who doesn't
have a few to pose for bail, you definitely don't
have the resources that would allow you to flee your neighborhood,
much less the city, state, or country. So I don't know,
but I digress. So a bail fund, like the Bronx
Freedom Fund or Mike's and Robin's nationwide version of that,
(11:06):
the Bail Project pays the bail on behalf of the accused,
and when that person returns for their court day, the
money is given back, which replenishes the fund, so it's
self sustaining. But even more importantly, it fills a very
important need, which is that it extends the justice system
that the rich and middle class experience, at least to
(11:26):
some extent, it extends this to the poor. With the
exception of violent crimes where a high bail is usually
set tonight. People will go to bed in jail in
a dangerous jail cell, away from their loved ones, away
from their job, away from their kids, having not been convicted,
solely because they can't afford bail. Now, most bail that
(11:49):
we paid in New Europe is on the two thousand dollars. Nationally,
our average bail is just about three thousand dollars. The
bulk of America, over fifty percent of Americans do not
have four hundred dollars at their disposal. Here what I
just said, half of our country doesn't have four d
five hundred dollars at their disposal. And so you know,
(12:09):
if you're rich New York and you're like, oh, why
didn't they just borrow money from one of their friends,
they don't have friends with five hundred dollars. And half
of the country has no savings. And so what ends
up happening is you end up sitting in jail for
thirteen days, eighteen days, nineteen days, and you end up
pleaing out. And so of cases in America are playing
(12:30):
and you know the d A, I'll give you a
lesser crime, and you play, and you end up pleading
guilty and now you have a record for the rest
of your life, and if you want to fight it,
you could be in jail a long period of time.
Before we're bailed out, people like, wow, I can't believe
you bailed out the triple murderer, Like, no one's bailing
out the triple murderer. Who who's bail is said at
eight hundred thousand dollars? And then there's bail bondsmen. That's
(12:50):
not what bill funds do. Bill funds bail out people
who have much lower level bails that are below where
bail bondsmen will make right because the bail bondsman he
charged as are you serious rate? You don't get the
money back, but on a hundred or two hundred dollar
bails doesn't make any sense for it, And so they
don't start really until the ten thousand and that's a
(13:11):
whole different conversation about what a crap industry that is.
But so the Bail Project had this mission to first
be humanitarian right a service where a service industry, we
are literally paying bails because other people aren't and they
can't afford it. But that allows us to collect tons
of data and then to start arguing and advocating for
better laws and doing it with evidence that keeping people
(13:35):
out of jails counterintuitively keeps communities much safer. And the
other side will argue that, my god, New York has
this bail on and look at how much more dangerous
things got. That's just not the truth. The facts are
the exact opposite. Even with COVID, prime is down, and
if you look at the violent crimes, very few I
think total of three work about people who would have
(13:55):
been kept in but got bailed out by the new
bail laws. Of question. The media runs with that narrative
the minute, and I hope people will be aware of this.
When you see some story that some parole or some
guy who's bailed out went and committed some gruesome crime,
it's because it's sensationalistic, and so the media runs with that.
But it really is just a head fake because society
benefits greatly. As Mike said, when are people are allowed
(14:16):
to go home to their families, their schools, their jobs,
their churches, whatever they do. And this has been proven, right,
what's the statistic Mike on people that the bail fund
bails out Because I think some people try to say
they're going well, but if you're not responsible to pay money,
you won't show up for court. Right, But the statistics
proved that's a lie as well. In New York it
was over in nationwide, it's certainly over ninety percent. There
(14:38):
are a few pockets, and we learned a lot. Right,
there were some places where people weren't showing up as well,
and then we realized, oh, they're not showing up because
they have no transportation and they have no telephones, like
these are really poor people in rural Tulsa, women in Tulsa.
Then you figure out, okay, how do you get them
the support structure so they will show up. Most people
don't want to run a fallow the law once they've
already been arrested. They want to show up for their
(15:00):
date and get it beyond that. And so it's not like,
you know, Bonnie and Clyde are running off in hiding
and putting on some costumes. Right. Most people that miss
bailed miss it because they don't have transportation that they
don't want to lose their job. Right, because you can
spend time in jail, you're losing your job. You're scared
of prison rape and of prison suicide. Happens in the
(15:20):
first three weeks people are in jail. It doesn't happen
in prison. It happens in jail. Here's a great statistic.
Fifty are close to the people we bail out, get
the charges dropped about of the people we bailed out,
and never spend another day in jail, Like, so, why
are we keeping all these people in jail waiting trial.
(15:58):
If you had a magic and could change one thing,
what would it be. I think it would be to
shift from a system of punishment to one of rehabilitation
and to one of helping people process their trauma. Are
prison system should be a giant factory to help people
get through trauma. And we've made huge progress as a
(16:20):
society on how to help people get through trauma, from
therapy to meditation to you know, drugs like psilocybin and
things like restorative justice. In prison, I had this amazing
story of somebody asked me to take care of one
of the guys that had just got out if I
could buy him a suit, And so I took the
guy out to buy him a suit because he was
just out after fifteen years. And I heard his story
(16:44):
and he was sitting in one of these restorative justice groups,
which is really like group therapy, and he had very sadly,
as a young gang member, shot some guy in the
back of that who had snitched. He didn't understand why
he did it, understand And seven years in one of
these restorative justice groups, seems telling his story and it
(17:04):
flashed through his brain him as a little kid where
he had snitched on his uncle as a five year
old and his uncle smashed him in the back of
the head and split his head open. And and he
literally as he's telling that story, it all kind of
pieced together for him, and he quick broke down and cried,
and he had this healing moment, and from that day
(17:26):
on he has been nothing but love and healing and helpful.
And you know, he was finally given clemency. I think
ten years later I heard that story and I was like,
Oh my god, that's that's what we're supposed to be
trying to do, to help people through their trauma so
they can become whole citizens again, taxpayers, contributors and having
learned from their mistakes. Like that's what a criminal justice
(17:50):
system should be. And listen, I'm not arguing that no
one should spend time. I'm not a prison abolitionist. I
think we could rip all the prisons out and build
a better system. But I do think, you know, society
has a tright to protect itself, that some people are
traumatized enough that they're just too dangerous to be left
on the street, that they need to go through a
process until they can heal themselves. And but we don't
(18:12):
approach prison that way. We just say, cage um away
and hold them there because you know, they sucked up
and screw them. And it's just such a lost opportunity
for us as a country. And I think it can
get changed. I like that. That's really good. This's is
not a lot we disagree on. Um. You know, I
want to I want to tear the whole fucking thing
(18:32):
down as well, and I want to build a system
like the ones they have in Europe in Germany, for instance,
in prisons to cells have locks on them, but they
locked from the inside. They respect the people even though
they may have done something that society doesn't think that
you should be able to do. Our whole system has
to be rethought on why we cage people. And you
can go to other Western countries where every single person
(18:56):
that runs the jail or prison in those countries has
at least a master's in rehabilitation. Most have PhDs right
the ideas to rehabilitate. In the US, every single person
I have met that runs a prison started as a guard.
I'm with you, Mike. I want to see us treat
our citizens as something more than almost an animate objects
(19:17):
to be processed and then tortured by a system that's
only designed to do that. And so we're in lockstep
on that stuff. And so Jason, I'm optimistic. You know,
when we when we got involved, like I was three
and four years ago, there was literally only about a
hundred million dollars of philanthropic capital year coming into the space.
And my guess is there's over a billion now. There
(19:37):
are so many people I know that have gotten involved
in big ways, in small ways. George Floyd's accelerated it.
Like I was pushing for Biden to hire a criminal
Justice Are, I'm still going to push for it. I've
been a little disappointed in their approach so far. Like well,
the criminal Justice Are, we had a drugs are. Let's
flip it to help be a convener using the federal
purse to pressure states in the same way they pressured
(19:59):
states to you know, past higher drinking ages with mother
skins from driving back in. There's lots of the federal
government can do. You've got Democrats in the White House.
I want to see them doing more. Both Biden and
VP Harris didn't have a great record on criminal justice,
and they got a chance to redeem themselves. And so
let's let's hope we see something. I want to leave
(20:21):
on an optimistic note, yep. And I think we're going
to see the end of mass incarceration in the next decade,
or at least a huge dent in it. And I'd
like to really speed that up. And I'm thrilled it
order to work alongside you and the other great people
in this movement and for this movement. If you want
to learn more about all the great work that Mike
and his team were doing, go to Galaxy Gives dot com.
That's Galaxy Gives dot Com. So this is now the
(20:44):
close of the show. We always do it pretty much
the same way, which is we just leave off with
me thanking you for being here and sharing your perspective
and giving us all the reason to be optimistic. And
then I turned my microphone off and I leave yours on.
For whatever you think we may have left out. I
called the sex of the show words of wisdom. So
what do you got words of wisdom? Listen. I love
(21:06):
what you're doing. I think everybody from the tribute the
thing I said at the beginning of the show, if
you can help help. I learned that from my mom
and dad. A lot of people think, wow, I don't
have the resources to help. Everybody has a resource, and
so that's my word of wisdom. You'll find the more
effort you put in, the more you're gonna get back,
and so you can help help. You might make that
(21:29):
a T shirt. Thank you for listening to Righteous Confesctions
with Jason Plom. I'd like to thank our production team
Connor Hall, Jeff Claver, and Kevin Wardis. With research by
Lalla Robinson. The music in this production was supplied by
(21:50):
three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook,
and Twitter at Lava for Good. You can also follow
me on TikTok and Instagram at its Jason Flom. Righteous
Convictions with Jason Flom is a production of Lava for
Good Podcasts and association with say about company number one
(22:12):
h
Last season on Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam, we spoke
with Mike novo Grats about Galaxy Gives, the philanthropic arm
of the Novograts family, and their efforts to disrupt the
money bail system. Today we are rereleasing that interview to
highlight Mike's tireless advocacy for criminal legal system reform, as
well as our gratitude for having such a reliable partner
(00:24):
in that fight, which brings to mind Mike's family mantra
when you can help help and you can always help. Hi.
I'm Jason Flam Here on Righteous Convictions. I speak with
some of today's most prominent and active agents of change,
people who see the wrong in the world and are
(00:44):
driven to make it right. Today's guest has done phenomenally
well in the world of finance and brings that same
instinct to his transformative work in the criminal legal reform movement.
If we're gonna be contributors to criminal justice reform movement,
we really need to understand it, and so we spent
about three months mapping out what the system looked like.
In that journey, which had the visiting prisons in jails,
(01:07):
going to Europe and look at their prisons and jails.
Everything I looked at kissed me off. I only lose
my temper around fairness and it just some so God
am unfair. Underwriting a nationwide cash bail fund was just
the beginning for this financier whose strategic philanthropy has already
had a massive impact. Hedge fund manager and righteous philanthropist
(01:31):
Mike no regrads right now on Righteous Convictions. Welcome back
to Righteous Convictions. This is my podcast where I have
(01:51):
the privilege of interviewing some of the most important, influential
and interesting change makers in the world. And today no exception.
Today I'm going to be interviewing Mike nova Grats, my
friend and somebody I really look up to. I gotta
be honest. So Mike, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks
a lot, Jason. So, Mike, I could spend the entire
podcast just reading your resume, but it would probably be
(02:14):
then you wouldn't get to talk. But it's really crazy.
I mean, for a guy who is the captain of
the Princeton wrestling team while pursuing a degree in economics,
that's a pretty unusual combination. Growing up in Virginia, spending
time in the New Jersey National Guard, Goldman Sachs, a
hedge fund called Fortress Investments, and finally now Galaxy Investments,
where you focused on cryptocurrency. But more importantly, you're a
(02:37):
philanthropist with a really strong point of view, not only
mission oriented, also personally engaged in a way that few
others are. But before we get into all that, I
want to hear about your growing up. You know, so
I grew up in a big Catholic family, middle class.
My dad was in the army. I'm one of seven kids.
I had a very aspirational mother. I think she thought
(02:59):
our family would be the Kennedy's because she named my
sister Jackie, my brother Robert, me Michael, my next brother John. Yeah,
there was a bit of a pattern. She swears it
wasn't the Kennedy's, but she wanted a lot for her kids.
You know. We grew up in a good public school
neighborhood and everyone was Yeah, I used the word aspirational,
even though it was middle class. You know, was aspirational
(03:21):
middle class. I think I learned from my parents a
really simple message which permeates how I lived my life
and our philanthropy. If you can help help. It was
literally that simple, and you can always help. But we
grew up going to the church and you know, serving
at a suit kitchen and my dad coaching the soccer team,
or my mom teaching c c D, which was the
(03:44):
Catholic Catechism that you used to get your a Catholic kid.
That just kind of was in the DNA of our family.
And so every one of my siblings as a philanthropist
in their own right, some of its community based, some
of its friend based, some of its strategic. Not a sister,
John Poland, who you know, runs this thing called the
Acumen Fund. So like philanthropy and talking about changing the world,
(04:06):
you know, started when she was fourteen and I was ten,
and we used to laugh, how are you going to
change the world? You know, She's gotta start now, and
I was like, I gotta make a lot of money first.
And so the day Fortress went public and we had
stupid amounts of money at least on paper. My first
call with my sister, she said, okay, it's by time
you start. I mean, that's great. And of course Fortress
(04:27):
is the hedge fund that put you in a position
to really make a difference. And now you've moved on
to your own fund, Galaxy Investments, and your strategic philanthropy
through Galaxy Gives. And it's interesting because you have a
really diverse set of interest. I'm talking about the Acumen Fund,
n y U LA and Going Medical Center, Princeton Varsity
Club School for Strings, the Jazz Foundation. I mean, obviously
(04:49):
music is very near and dear to my heart my
whole being as well, but even more so is your
work in the criminal legal reform space. Now, through Galaxy Gives,
you found a way to use your money to attack
the problem from several different angles in order to have
the greatest impact. And we're going to get into what
that means in a minute, but I want to know
(05:10):
how did you first notice become aware of the need
for change in our criminal legal system. Kind of idiosyncratic,
My daughter Anna decided she was going to get a
summer job for the Bronx Defenders, and she in the
summer would go up to the Bronx and was a investigator,
(05:31):
and she was a soft horn, all the five ft
pounds probably, and she would intrepidly march around the Bronx
with one of her partners and take statements from more
data owners and look at the tapes and and I
was like, you can't really be, you know, an investigator here,
a summer intern. She's like that, I'm all they got,
and that intriguement, you know, through Anna, I met Robin Steinberg.
(05:55):
She's just the force of nature. And then I went
to a an event. As luck would have it, I
owned a lot of cryptocurrencies in two thousand and seventeen
and they went sky high and it put me in
a different financial position to be able to contribute. And
I went to a conference that my brother in law
throw called Audacious, where people would come up with audacious
(06:15):
ideas and philanthropists would either fund them or not fund them.
And I heard Robin's pitch. It was really a nine
minute pitch on the injustice of cash bail. And it
was literally a very quick and intuitive decision. You know,
I made my my far largest philanthropic contribution to help
stand up the bail project, taking this idea that heard
(06:36):
her husband and a bunch of people. And I know, Jason,
you had contributed a lot, had started in New York
and taken it nationally. That's what really got me into
criminal justice. I heard a story I felt I could
help is that what my mother said, if you can help, help,
I was in a position to help, and help you did.
And to clarify the bail project that Robin was pitching out,
Audacious was, as Mike explained, a nationwide expansion of the
(06:59):
Bronx Freed Fund that Robin began a decade earlier with
my help, and it's great that this interview is happening.
On the heels of our episode was Scott Heckinger, who
similarly started the Brooklyn Community Bail Fund as well as
his new organization Zealous, in which again, Mike, you know
you've made a very smart investment. And I use that
word investment because that's how I think about how you
(07:21):
approach this endeavor, Because once you got involved in the
criminal legal reform space, you really did your homework in
order to create a strategy that would get the biggest
well let's call it a return on investment. I mean,
you didn't just write a check. You know. I realize
you can't just be an idiot and like plunge into
something and not know anything about it. And so I
(07:43):
hired this awesome lieutenant I got named Billy Waterson. You
know well, uh, and said Billy, if we're going to
be contributors to criminal justice reform movement, we really need
to understand it. And so we spent about three months
mapping out on a big giant piece of paper what
the system look like. Who was funding what, from pre
(08:05):
trial stuff to death penalty to food in prisons, almost
every vertical probation and parole. And we were meeting leaders
of the different organizations and we kind of mapped out
what we thought was right and wrong and who was
funded and who wasn't funded. In that journey, which hadn't
be visiting prisons and jails have made me go to
(08:27):
to Europe and look at their prisons and jails. It
just got me angry and angry. Everything I looked at
kissed me off. And you know, I think when I
look back at my life, only lose my temper around
fairness and it just you so God them unfair. And
so we started Galax Leaders, We started funding lots of
(08:47):
other groups. I John the Reform Alliance and Colone just
has become a major part of my life and I've
received so much more the stories, the emotion, the understanding
that the learning from all these men and women that
I've met that have suffered immensely and somehow come out
the other side whole you beads miraculously has been a
(09:10):
real blessing, and so I am more optimistic than most
in the field that changes possible. I think George Floyd
that tragedy reopened people's eyes up and I think it
opened window where we can reimagine how things are done.
And so we're doubling down, not back in the way.
(09:38):
As an investor, I always try to invest in ideas
I believe in and leaders because you could have great idea,
what you don't have the right leadership, nothing's going to happen.
And Robin just exuded competence and confidence and purpose and
so she was easy to invest in, you know, I
(09:59):
mean she was running the Brox Defenders. Robin Steinberg told
me how she had thousands of clients being sent to
Rikers Island every year just because they couldn't post bail
for these nood nick nothing offenses. And I'm talking about trespassing,
jumping a turnstile, smoking a joint, open container violations, even
riding a bike on a sidewalk. And for our audience
(10:23):
who may not know how bail works, basically, when you
get picked up for a low level crime, you have
to post bail that will be returned to you upon
your return to court. But if you can't pay, if
you can't post a bail, then you're held in jail
pre trial instead. And this is supposedly allegedly to ensure
(10:43):
that you won't flee, But that's a myth because if
you think about it, if you're a person who doesn't
have a few to pose for bail, you definitely don't
have the resources that would allow you to flee your neighborhood,
much less the city, state, or country. So I don't know,
but I digress. So a bail fund, like the Bronx
Freedom Fund or Mike's and Robin's nationwide version of that,
(11:06):
the Bail Project pays the bail on behalf of the accused,
and when that person returns for their court day, the
money is given back, which replenishes the fund, so it's
self sustaining. But even more importantly, it fills a very
important need, which is that it extends the justice system
that the rich and middle class experience, at least to
(11:26):
some extent, it extends this to the poor. With the
exception of violent crimes where a high bail is usually
set tonight. People will go to bed in jail in
a dangerous jail cell, away from their loved ones, away
from their job, away from their kids, having not been convicted,
solely because they can't afford bail. Now, most bail that
(11:49):
we paid in New Europe is on the two thousand dollars. Nationally,
our average bail is just about three thousand dollars. The
bulk of America, over fifty percent of Americans do not
have four hundred dollars at their disposal. Here what I
just said, half of our country doesn't have four d
five hundred dollars at their disposal. And so you know,
(12:09):
if you're rich New York and you're like, oh, why
didn't they just borrow money from one of their friends,
they don't have friends with five hundred dollars. And half
of the country has no savings. And so what ends
up happening is you end up sitting in jail for
thirteen days, eighteen days, nineteen days, and you end up
pleaing out. And so of cases in America are playing
(12:30):
and you know the d A, I'll give you a
lesser crime, and you play, and you end up pleading
guilty and now you have a record for the rest
of your life, and if you want to fight it,
you could be in jail a long period of time.
Before we're bailed out, people like, wow, I can't believe
you bailed out the triple murderer, Like, no one's bailing
out the triple murderer. Who who's bail is said at
eight hundred thousand dollars? And then there's bail bondsmen. That's
(12:50):
not what bill funds do. Bill funds bail out people
who have much lower level bails that are below where
bail bondsmen will make right because the bail bondsman he
charged as are you serious rate? You don't get the
money back, but on a hundred or two hundred dollar
bails doesn't make any sense for it, And so they
don't start really until the ten thousand and that's a
(13:11):
whole different conversation about what a crap industry that is.
But so the Bail Project had this mission to first
be humanitarian right a service where a service industry, we
are literally paying bails because other people aren't and they
can't afford it. But that allows us to collect tons
of data and then to start arguing and advocating for
better laws and doing it with evidence that keeping people
(13:35):
out of jails counterintuitively keeps communities much safer. And the
other side will argue that, my god, New York has
this bail on and look at how much more dangerous
things got. That's just not the truth. The facts are
the exact opposite. Even with COVID, prime is down, and
if you look at the violent crimes, very few I
think total of three work about people who would have
(13:55):
been kept in but got bailed out by the new
bail laws. Of question. The media runs with that narrative
the minute, and I hope people will be aware of this.
When you see some story that some parole or some
guy who's bailed out went and committed some gruesome crime,
it's because it's sensationalistic, and so the media runs with that.
But it really is just a head fake because society
benefits greatly. As Mike said, when are people are allowed
(14:16):
to go home to their families, their schools, their jobs,
their churches, whatever they do. And this has been proven, right,
what's the statistic Mike on people that the bail fund
bails out Because I think some people try to say
they're going well, but if you're not responsible to pay money,
you won't show up for court. Right, But the statistics
proved that's a lie as well. In New York it
was over in nationwide, it's certainly over ninety percent. There
(14:38):
are a few pockets, and we learned a lot. Right,
there were some places where people weren't showing up as well,
and then we realized, oh, they're not showing up because
they have no transportation and they have no telephones, like
these are really poor people in rural Tulsa, women in Tulsa.
Then you figure out, okay, how do you get them
the support structure so they will show up. Most people
don't want to run a fallow the law once they've
already been arrested. They want to show up for their
(15:00):
date and get it beyond that. And so it's not like,
you know, Bonnie and Clyde are running off in hiding
and putting on some costumes. Right. Most people that miss
bailed miss it because they don't have transportation that they
don't want to lose their job. Right, because you can
spend time in jail, you're losing your job. You're scared
of prison rape and of prison suicide. Happens in the
(15:20):
first three weeks people are in jail. It doesn't happen
in prison. It happens in jail. Here's a great statistic.
Fifty are close to the people we bail out, get
the charges dropped about of the people we bailed out,
and never spend another day in jail, Like, so, why
are we keeping all these people in jail waiting trial.
(15:58):
If you had a magic and could change one thing,
what would it be. I think it would be to
shift from a system of punishment to one of rehabilitation
and to one of helping people process their trauma. Are
prison system should be a giant factory to help people
get through trauma. And we've made huge progress as a
(16:20):
society on how to help people get through trauma, from
therapy to meditation to you know, drugs like psilocybin and
things like restorative justice. In prison, I had this amazing
story of somebody asked me to take care of one
of the guys that had just got out if I
could buy him a suit, And so I took the
guy out to buy him a suit because he was
just out after fifteen years. And I heard his story
(16:44):
and he was sitting in one of these restorative justice groups,
which is really like group therapy, and he had very sadly,
as a young gang member, shot some guy in the
back of that who had snitched. He didn't understand why
he did it, understand And seven years in one of
these restorative justice groups, seems telling his story and it
(17:04):
flashed through his brain him as a little kid where
he had snitched on his uncle as a five year
old and his uncle smashed him in the back of
the head and split his head open. And and he
literally as he's telling that story, it all kind of
pieced together for him, and he quick broke down and cried,
and he had this healing moment, and from that day
(17:26):
on he has been nothing but love and healing and helpful.
And you know, he was finally given clemency. I think
ten years later I heard that story and I was like,
Oh my god, that's that's what we're supposed to be
trying to do, to help people through their trauma so
they can become whole citizens again, taxpayers, contributors and having
learned from their mistakes. Like that's what a criminal justice
(17:50):
system should be. And listen, I'm not arguing that no
one should spend time. I'm not a prison abolitionist. I
think we could rip all the prisons out and build
a better system. But I do think, you know, society
has a tright to protect itself, that some people are
traumatized enough that they're just too dangerous to be left
on the street, that they need to go through a
process until they can heal themselves. And but we don't
(18:12):
approach prison that way. We just say, cage um away
and hold them there because you know, they sucked up
and screw them. And it's just such a lost opportunity
for us as a country. And I think it can
get changed. I like that. That's really good. This's is
not a lot we disagree on. Um. You know, I
want to I want to tear the whole fucking thing
(18:32):
down as well, and I want to build a system
like the ones they have in Europe in Germany, for instance,
in prisons to cells have locks on them, but they
locked from the inside. They respect the people even though
they may have done something that society doesn't think that
you should be able to do. Our whole system has
to be rethought on why we cage people. And you
can go to other Western countries where every single person
(18:56):
that runs the jail or prison in those countries has
at least a master's in rehabilitation. Most have PhDs right
the ideas to rehabilitate. In the US, every single person
I have met that runs a prison started as a guard.
I'm with you, Mike. I want to see us treat
our citizens as something more than almost an animate objects
(19:17):
to be processed and then tortured by a system that's
only designed to do that. And so we're in lockstep
on that stuff. And so Jason, I'm optimistic. You know,
when we when we got involved, like I was three
and four years ago, there was literally only about a
hundred million dollars of philanthropic capital year coming into the space.
And my guess is there's over a billion now. There
(19:37):
are so many people I know that have gotten involved
in big ways, in small ways. George Floyd's accelerated it.
Like I was pushing for Biden to hire a criminal
Justice Are, I'm still going to push for it. I've
been a little disappointed in their approach so far. Like well,
the criminal Justice Are, we had a drugs are. Let's
flip it to help be a convener using the federal
purse to pressure states in the same way they pressured
(19:59):
states to you know, past higher drinking ages with mother
skins from driving back in. There's lots of the federal
government can do. You've got Democrats in the White House.
I want to see them doing more. Both Biden and
VP Harris didn't have a great record on criminal justice,
and they got a chance to redeem themselves. And so
let's let's hope we see something. I want to leave
(20:21):
on an optimistic note, yep. And I think we're going
to see the end of mass incarceration in the next decade,
or at least a huge dent in it. And I'd
like to really speed that up. And I'm thrilled it
order to work alongside you and the other great people
in this movement and for this movement. If you want
to learn more about all the great work that Mike
and his team were doing, go to Galaxy Gives dot com.
That's Galaxy Gives dot Com. So this is now the
(20:44):
close of the show. We always do it pretty much
the same way, which is we just leave off with
me thanking you for being here and sharing your perspective
and giving us all the reason to be optimistic. And
then I turned my microphone off and I leave yours on.
For whatever you think we may have left out. I
called the sex of the show words of wisdom. So
what do you got words of wisdom? Listen. I love
(21:06):
what you're doing. I think everybody from the tribute the
thing I said at the beginning of the show, if
you can help help. I learned that from my mom
and dad. A lot of people think, wow, I don't
have the resources to help. Everybody has a resource, and
so that's my word of wisdom. You'll find the more
effort you put in, the more you're gonna get back,
and so you can help help. You might make that
(21:29):
a T shirt. Thank you for listening to Righteous Confesctions
with Jason Plom. I'd like to thank our production team
Connor Hall, Jeff Claver, and Kevin Wardis. With research by
Lalla Robinson. The music in this production was supplied by
(21:50):
three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook,
and Twitter at Lava for Good. You can also follow
me on TikTok and Instagram at its Jason Flom. Righteous
Convictions with Jason Flom is a production of Lava for
Good Podcasts and association with say about company number one
(22:12):
h
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