November 8, 2022 • 36 mins
Lola N’sangou (pronounced “Sango,”) is the executive director of Mass Liberation Arizona, building a movement for abolition in the nation's 5th most incarcerated state. Lola has been organizing to change the criminal punishment system since she was incarcerated from 2003 to 2014. While incarcerated, she co-founded Humanities Behind the Walls (HBW), a collective of organizers, artists, and educators who partnered with Arizona State University’s School of Social Transformation to bring the study of humanities to prisoners and provide participants access to grassroots organizations and campaigns.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flom podcast, where I
speak with people who see the wrong in the world
and are driven to make it right. Today, I'm speaking
with a woman who, while incarcerated, began campaigning for prisoners rights.
Upon her release, she continued her grassroots organizing, building a
movement that successfully targeted police practices and corrupt officials in
(00:32):
her home county of Mariposa, Arizona. Dismantling systems and institutions
that hold the power may seem like the purview of superheroes,
but Lolas Ango says it can be done by any
of us, and the work starts at home, sitting at
your table at dinner with your spouse or your neighbor
or you know, kids, and especially kids. If we can
(00:55):
start to develop these notions that this change is necessary
on that small scale, it will begin to grow to
the larger scale. So I always say, build your community
and strengthen it, and that then you get taken more
seriously right by those systems of power. Right now, on
Righteous Convictions, Lolas Angle m Welcome back to Righteous Convictions
(01:39):
with Jason flam My guest today has an amazing resume,
and I think this one is a first for us. Lola,
you are a catering manager. You earned a degree in
fire science, and you were the co founder of Humanities
Behind the Walls, which you started while incarcerated. And you're
currently the executive director of Mass Liberation Arizona, which is
an organization. I'm very excited to learn more about myself.
(02:02):
So welcome, saying go to Righteous Convictions. Hello, Hello, thank
you for having me. I'm so happy to have you
here to tell us about your extraordinary journey. So let's
just jump right into it. What is your origin story?
I mean, like, how in the world did you become you? Well,
that's um, that's an interesting question. So I guess you
(02:24):
did find out that I was a catering manager, actually
was a wedding planner before I went to prison, and
even better, you know, isn't it funny? And and then
I I started out I wanted to be a firefighter
when I was young, and and then I decided that
I was going to get into catering sales. I decided
to become a wedding planner. It was something I really
was passionate about. I really thought that, like that's where
(02:45):
I was going to land in my career as UM.
You know, I was a younger person, and then suddenly
my life changed and I ended up UM finding myself
prosecuted by the Americopa County Attorney's Office in two thousand two,
and in two thousand three, UM I was convicted of
an offense and sent to prison and where I was
(03:05):
set to be there for twelve years and in Arizona,
because it's a truth and sentencing state. I ended up
spending ten point to never forget the point to those
count years in prison. And it was during the time
I was It didn't take long. I was there for
about five minutes to before I recognized there was overt racism,
ag ism, UM that there was this whole dynamic of punitive,
(03:27):
like there's such this punishing environment, and I couldn't figure
out really what there was to do about that. I
hadn't really prisons weren't on my radar when I was younger.
I had no idea like about crime and punishment. I
didn't vote UM toward like anything that had you with prisons,
and so I was really caught off guard by just
how bad it was and the conditions were really awful,
(03:48):
and I started just to listen to people's stories, and
I started to find out it just wasn't what we
thought it was. And during the time that I was there,
I really couldn't sit still and sort of witnessed this
behavior and also was happening, you know, towards me to
this overt racism and this this like super violent system
um that really just humanized you on a daily basis.
And I started to organize while I was inside, and
(04:09):
I didn't even realize I was doing it. I really
started to recognize that there was organizing probably for the
latter part of my sentence, when I was introduced to
abolition as like a theory of change, and I was like,
holy wow, I've been in here organizing this whole time.
And and yeah, so once I got an idea of
what abolition was, I actually was. I was sitting in
(04:30):
a dorm room um with like three women and there
was a mail call. It was so strange because like
everybody suddenly had a legal meal. Was like like three
people and they all had legal mail in an air
in prison in Arizona. When you get legal mail, you
have to like sign for it. Guards aren't able to
open it. It's a hole to do and suddenly, like
(04:50):
everybody in the dorm had. It was a huge disruption,
was like a four hour mail call and I was like, wow,
I guess I'm gonna get legal mail. What's this about?
And I walked up to go get the legal mail
and was a newsletter. It was called the Abolitionists and
it came from an organization out of the Bay Area
called Critical Resistance. And I opened it up and I
saw myself in there. I saw prison art. I saw
(05:12):
stories of black liberation. I saw how people are dehumanized
by the system. And it was run by and written
by people who were formally incarcerated. And I just sat
down on the floor and like drank it all. And
I was so thirsty for it. And I also recognized
it wasn't lost on me, this huge disruption that they
caused within the prison to get get it to me.
And I was like, wow, okay, this is what is it?
(05:33):
So Ever since then, I've been an abolitionist and the
rest of history. So that was your like Eureka moment.
And it's interesting too, because Arizona is you know, I
think when people think of Arizona, they think of our pile,
they think of his disgusting treatment of well, immigrants in
particular and Latinos, but everybody who was locked up in
(05:53):
his quote unquote his jails as he would call them, right,
And you know it's also a place where I had
Prisons have existed for quite some time. Um, you know,
I think almost most people get the private prisons need
to be abolished, But your work is an abolition writ large.
(06:14):
And so there you have this incredible moment right where
you're you know, it's almost like you got hit by
the lightning bolt. What happens next, Well, you know, I
started to realize that there could be a framework to
the organizing I had done been largely reactionary, just sort
(06:35):
of dealing with the day to day um conditions of confinement,
like was there inhumane like the food where they were
they serving horrible food? Where people not getting medical treatment.
I was doing like sort of one at a time
advocacy for folks inside, and I actually had joined what
was called the community Forum where I would go sort
of like represent the entire yard at like these conversations
(06:58):
with not only the warden of the prison, but sometimes
the regional operations directors and high level administrators. And I
started to recognize that there's a pattern here, and it's
actually UM. The way power moves within UM that institution
is not unlike how it moves in corporate America, which
is also another light bulb moment where always talked about
private prisons and their interests are no different and you
can actually sit at the table and negotiate things in
(07:21):
ways that UM that I was just really surprised by,
and I just I started to learn right that they
didn't really understand that punishment was part of their pathology,
that they really thought that they had somehow operationalized the
sort of warehousing of people. And I was able to
really get into this theory work with folks that really
worked like they worked in high level roles, and it
was really interesting to sort of unpack the ways that
(07:42):
they tell the stories that tell themselves to be able
to do the work. It largely informed the way I
approached this work. Now I consider myself not only a
community organizer, but an institutional organizer that I've learned if
you can argued down on the director of Corrections literally
with the belly chain and handcuffs on, and talk them
through like reorganizing the way that they manage their power,
(08:03):
and I negotiate outcomes that benefit folk inside the prison.
Really coming outside and working with city council or like
prosecutors or you know, the mayor, the governor, those folks,
it's not you know, you don't stand to lose as
much as you did inside. So I started to recognize, like, look,
I can actually challenge really powerful systems, not just me
as an individual, but building people power UM on the ground.
(08:23):
And it really that work inside the prison largely informed
how I approached this political organizing I do now today.
And I live in South Phoenix. I organized in South
Phoenix and if you if you know about South Phoenix,
it is UM. There was a spatial map done in
twelve by a PhD student UM, and I wish I
could cite this person's name, but I can't. And when
(08:54):
I came home from prison and I tried to co
live in the community that I I used to live
in an South Phoenix where I was incarcerated from and
tried to return back home to, I realized that having
like looked at that spatial nap and found out that Arizona,
South Phoenix particularly was situated as one of the most
like the most concentrations of million dollar blocks in the US.
(09:17):
It suddenly came clear to me, like, holy crap, I
was always going to prison, Like I was raised in
this community. This community is designed in this way, the
ways in which power moves for that community. It's a
red lined part of town where predominantly black and brown
people live. I was always going to prison. And so
I guess when I started to make those connections after
(09:38):
I came home from prison, I started to realize weight
Now I know how to move power. I know how
to move power in a different way than I ever
did coming into the prison. I've actually learned how to
negotiate outcomes in a way that is principled and is
actually holding true to these values. And I'm an abolitionist
and I need to do this work now here on
the ground. And that's really um yeah, that's effective sort
(10:00):
of how the rest of this organizing takes flight. And
so I'm here on the ground. I'm trying to look
for folks I'm black, um directly impacted. I'm trying to
look for an organization that's like an abolitionist organization where
I can go and like bring these theories of change.
And I looked around and I didn't find any of
that in Phoenix. In fact, what I did find was
a largely brown lead movement UM that was really focused
(10:21):
on police accountability, which was great, but through like a
migrant rights lens. So I didn't see myself in the organizing.
So I had all these tools, right, learning how to
move power, learning how to negotiate outcomes, learning how to
be principled as an abolitionist, and nowhere to put it.
And so eventually I just figured I was going to
have to do this work myself and started to build base.
(10:41):
I worked with a project that's a national project called
Mass Liberation Project, and they were effectively like showing up
all over the country doing prosecutor accountability work, and they were,
you know, coming into key races in Arizona. Being the
third largest prosecuting agency in the nation at Maricopa County
was something that was on the radar and UM, so
they showed up and I just started taking their political
(11:04):
education program. I became a fellow with their fellowship program.
And then suddenly I was like, wait a minute, police
kill us in the streets with guns, but we don't
often talk about how prosecutors kill us in court with
with long sentences and death penalties right like, and so
why aren't we doing this work? I remember what it
was like being prosecuted, and then suddenly my vision for
(11:26):
an organization that is black liberation focused, directly impacted lead
situated in South Phoenix, home of the Million Dollar Block,
began Righteous Convictions with Jason flam Is super excited and
(11:52):
honored to have the support of a great organization like
Galaxy Gives. Galaxy Gives leads the filmthropic efforts of the
Novograds family. They invest in organizations, campaigns, and leaders who
are directly impacted by and working to dismantle the current
punitive justice system. Galaxy Gives also builds power for the
community's most harmed by mass incarceration and forges transformative solutions
(12:14):
for responding to that harm. They envision a society where
the structural barriers created by racism, poverty, and inequality are
no more, where instead all people have the dignity, freedom,
and rights needed to thrive. The million dollar blocks, I
(12:37):
can't believe I've never heard of that before. I'm just
processing that, right. So million dollar blocks are blocks, literally
city blocks right where we're spending a million dollars a
year to keep people locked up? Did I get that right? Yeah?
What an incredible, incredible concept. You know, it only recently
(12:57):
came to light inside of New York City Controller. We
should report saying that it's costing New Yorkers five sixty
five thousand dollars a year to keep one person incarcerated
at Rikers Island. And isn't that ironic that the million
dollar blocks have got to be almost exclusively concentrated in
the poorest areas, right? What a juxtaposition that is. And
(13:20):
so when people say the system is broken, like I
just really wish that we could just fix it, Like,
this is why abolition is so important. Right, The system
is not broken. It's designed to do exactly what it's doing.
So when you're talking about these poor communities, right having
million dollar blocks, this is just this is just the design.
So what is the significance? I mean, it's an incredible phrase,
(13:43):
a million dollar block. But what now that you've identified
this thing and you've you've coined this incredible phrase, what
do we do with million dollar blocks? Where does it
go from a phrase to how do you utilize that? Well?
You know, I think, um, we don't often recognize that
(14:03):
displacement is at the heart of this problem. So I
mentioned earlier on when we first started talking that I
was incarcerated out of South Phoenix, but I couldn't return
to it UM. And that's because once you are incarcerated,
you have this felony on your record, and you can't
pass background checks, and there's all of these exclusionary laws
and rules that prevent you from being able to rent
(14:24):
in communities. And you know, just recognizing that again, system
isn't broken. It was designed this way. Million dollar blocks
are actually designed to clear the path for gentrification. And
so just really looking more deeply at like these systems
again were designed with white supremacy in mind, like right
to be able to hold onto white privilege and wealth.
They were designed um really ultimately to to um Rithe
(14:50):
Wilson Gilmore talks about this UM in the Golden gulag
Um really predisposed black and brown people to early death UM.
And you see it, like right in all statistics, you
can actually look at how displacement actually is directly tied
to early death. But people don't often recognize that prison
is an actual feeder of displacement. And so when you
think about right, like million dollar blocks, and how it's
(15:12):
taking people off of the street and putting them into
prison systems, removing them from their communities and they can't
return back to them. It effectively clears the path for gentrification.
It's displacing people. So I actually worked on a project
called Rename, Remain and Reclaim South Phoenix. And it's because
those of us have been displaced, right have um And
you can actually see this, you know, playing out here
(15:32):
in South Phoenix where you know, um, a light rail
is being built and now suddenly all of these like
hipster burritos or fifty dollars each and you can't sit
down and do a coffee shop and not you know,
have a secret handshake and like you have to spend
you know, a ton of money to get some kind
of like fancy drink. And it's not South Phoenix. When
I was younger, you could drove through it with my
(15:53):
my friends and they would lock their doors. They didn't
want to be in South Phoenix. It was like we're
drive by shootings happened and such. Right after you sweep
everybody out, you've stick them in a cage. You then
clear the path right for what is now development. UM
that is designed specifically to bring in white folk and
to displace black folks, and so it's a much deeper conversation,
(16:13):
it's a longer story. I'm down to talk to you
anytime you want to about all of these systems because
I think, ultimately, like you have folks who are directly
impacted by these systems, we're the ones who are closest
the problem, and so we oftentimes really have the solutions,
but not not a lot of people are asking. So
I mean, I'm actually really grateful to you for for
reaching out and wanting to talk about these details. Because
your platform right where you're sharing it with with a
(16:35):
broader reach, folks can become educated about these things. It's
those of us who are stuck in cages that don't
make our way into the two folks rooms to talk
to them about these important details. So yeah, but I'm
down to talk about it in greater detail. But the
bottom line is, million dollar blocks are designed to white
people out, displace them, and clear the path for development.
And then the million dollar block actually can become a
(16:56):
million dollar block right and the only people that are
harmed are the people who are most vulnerable, which is
how the system works. Right, and it's exactly I mean,
it's almost a perfect microcosm of the way it's designed
and everything that you and I and so many others
(17:20):
are fighting against. But it's an incredibly powerful way to
look at it, and I think we need to amplify
that concept when you think of that list, And a
lot of times people think of us as like, oh,
your dreamers, you just you you you want this thing
to like, you know, to the to erase prisons, erase police,
and have no accountability, to be a free for all
(17:41):
in wild. But I don't actually think people fully understand
that when the system isn't broken, it was designed this way,
there is no reform to it. Like you can't reform
something that is this off like um purpose for like
you know, the well being of people. It claims to
be a thing, but it doesn't actually do that thing.
And so I always take people back in their mind
to like when you think of enslaved individuals right back
(18:03):
way back when, and they had no independent recollection of
what it was like to live free. They didn't still
meet in alleyways and churches and behind buildings and whisper
about how do you make slavery better? How do you
make this system that's designed and it's it's totally legal,
much like our president police like, how do you make
(18:23):
a system that was totally designed to do this thing better?
How do we improve slavery? They didn't. They didn't have
a world in mind either, because there was nothing for
them to look toward for themselves. And they are generationally
been embedded in the system that has been gratuitous violence
and throughout their whole lives, and they were still able
to dream of abolition. So when people go, oh, what
(18:44):
do you want to do instead? What do you do
with the most violent? What do you do with the
what do you do with the centering? That question is
superficial and it's really not the point. We can absolutely
develop those systems, but we have to recognize is that
this perfect legal system policing in prison is designed to
do exactly what it's doing, and there is no reform
(19:05):
out there that is going to make it better. Is
freaking works? Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. Um,
you know it does beg the question though, and you
you raised it yourself, so I'm going to unabashedly raise
it again, even though you're tired of hearing it and
you've already kind of given your answer, right, but there
(19:26):
is definitely a strong, you know, sort of counter, you
know force there. Whatever are people who are progressive or
consider themselves to be prison and are progressive. Let's face it,
who say, well, we'll wait a minute, so pick a name.
Dylan roof Right goes in and shoots up a church.
A whole bunch of people died. In a world where
(19:48):
we don't have any prisons or police, what do we
do with somebody like that? And I understand by the
way I understand, we want to build towards the society
where people like him don't need to exist, because you know,
there's services and and there's social programs designed to help
head off the type of mental illness and other conditions
(20:12):
that drive people like him to do things like that.
Of course, we also like to have a society whether
aren't more guns than people, But in the meantime, that's
not where we are. So what do you do if
if you have no police in prisons with a guy
like him? Well, first I want to just say I
am not convinced to that there's a mental health issue there,
so I certainly don't want to excuse his behavior and
(20:34):
any ideas of accountability because of a mental health condition
for a person who was you know, just as egregiously
violent as Dylan Roof. But I do want to say
that communities have been solving and resolving you know, responses
to harm for centuries, right, So I would just I
would say this right for me to create a recipe
(20:55):
for how do we deal with the one individual case
right at Dylan Roof, And I answer that question for
you today, It's still going to lead more to more
questions because that's not the same um can You know,
every situation is complex, and I think that's where our
first and foremost problem in thinking begins is that there
would be a like canned solution for a person like
Dylan Roof. What we would have to ask if we're
(21:17):
talking about how to respond to the harm that Dylan
Roove caused, we have to first look at the people
most directly impacted, So that's the family's right who were
harmed by this right, and we also have to look
at the this person who is the harm or harm
is something you know, and I just want to say too,
as a really important principle, there is a difference between
crime and harm. Crime is something that is defined by
(21:39):
the state, designed by people with power, and often times
to protect that power. Harm is very different. So if
you want to talk about the crime Dilan has committed,
and like how we respond to crime and we put
him in a cage, it doesn't address the actual harm,
doesn't actually address what happened to the family, doesn't address
what actually maybe lead him to this position. And people
don't usually enter into harm by having caused it. There's
(22:00):
a cycle of harm that led to Dylan Roof becoming
who he was. Anyway, we don't address any of that.
The systems that cause it, like the systems themselves like
white supremacy, right and whatever else he was able to
subscribe to to brew this hate into his heart, and
it doesn't address preventing it again in the future. So
what I'm talking about when I talk about crime and
resolving it by putting somebody in a cage like Dylan Ruf,
(22:21):
none of those things. None of those things have been addressed.
And and so it I can just tell you now
that the system that we have now does none of
what it claims to do. But what I do want
to say is that as an abolitionist, which is a
very sophisticated type of thought. It isn't superficial. In fact,
superficial is looking at it by by you know, pulling
(22:41):
a guy off the street and sticking him in the
cage and calling it a day, and again not addressing
the family, not addressing himself and his issues, not addressing
the systems that caused it or how to prevent it. Um,
that's superficial. Now, if you think think about abolition, you
need to think about every layer, right, like all of
those things. And so what we'd have to do to
decide what we do with Dylan ruf as community, right
is we'd have to then talk about who was harmed
(23:04):
and how are they restored? And you can't do that
for them. You have to work with them to determine
what it is that restores them. And you can't be
restored obviously from a violent act like that completely. But
there are things that family can tell you that they want.
And sometimes it is punitive in fact, when you have
nothing else to dream of, your first answer will be
for it to be punitive. But we should work to
figuring out right what truly restores them. In fact, you
(23:27):
see people getting executed constantly in this country and you
see the families who called for it in court, the victims,
families who called for in court, and then when the
person is executed, they come back and they're like, I
don't feel any better. It's because nothing was restored. And
I've talked to people who are who are deemed by
the system victims, and so often the system leaves them
(23:47):
completely empty handed. And so when you ask me the
question of what do we do with somebody is a serious,
seriously violent situation, Like Dylan Roof, we asked the family.
We work with families, We figure out what in the
world lad this guy to this situation, and we address
some of those harms too, because that's how you get
into preventing, and then you start looking at the systems
that caused it and you start addressing those as well.
(24:31):
So let's talk about the other aspects of your work, right,
reimagining communities. You're you are as understanding reimagining communities, fellow
with the National Council from incarcerated and formally incarcerated women
and girls. What an important thing to talk about in
this country that incarceerates women at a rate that is
(24:53):
unprecedented the history of civilization. Yeah, that is powerful and
that is sobering, and uh, it is true. And I
was in a woman's prison in two thousand and three
I got there. It's doubled in size now in terms
of not size actually no, definitely not size. They're just
grouping more people into rooms. Um. They it's doubled in
(25:14):
population um. And it's really really astounding to hear some
of the stories of what led to the outcome where
women are facing decades and lifetimes in in prison. And
it is again, you know, as my work as an
abolitionist oftentimes looking at how we're responding to harm and
just recognizing that there is such this difference between like
(25:37):
this notion that you know, you put the bad person
in the cage and then they'll stop being bad, and
all of society it's just swept away um out of
your eyesight. You don't have to worry about the domestic
violence that led to it, you don't have to worry
about the poverty that led to it, you don't have
to worry about the racism that led to it. You
don't have to worry about any of those systems. And
so it just keeps repeating itself and this other system
(25:57):
that you know, is judicial just sort of like as
a well oiled machine, just choose people up and stick
them in too. And so what I did with the
National Council as a fellow was I really took a
look at how we're destroying families and actually the genocide
of it all, right, putting women into prison during their
childbearing years, um, and really denying people the opportunity to
have families in space them. It's a human right right
(26:18):
to decide to decide how you want to build your
family and space your children and um. And the car
strail system interrupting that is really super violent and it's
actually an untold story. Mostly folks don't even think about that,
about how how you're not able to maintain relationships and
how actually Department Child Services and the like all across
(26:40):
the nation are are taking the babies away from incarcerated
people all over all over the country at a rate
that's astounding, and and finding that like, these families are
broken apart and not really recognizing at the end of
the day, when disproportionate amount of black people end up
in in prisons and jails, that that is tantamount to genocide.
That was my work there. Yeah, that's another very um
(27:04):
do you just have you just have an interesting way
of crystallizing these issues that um, I think it's really
important because these messages that there has to be a
way to cut through, and some of these little pressure
points that you've identified are so so powerful. So, Lola,
I'm trying to stay optimistic and hopeful while at the
(27:26):
same time watching you know Biden, who I'm very grateful
too because he's winning the election, probably saved the entire
planet from imminent destruction. But at the same time, he
is who he is, and he's just put thirty two
billion more dollars in the budget for police and prisons,
(27:46):
And I'm sitting here going what I mean, give me
a reason to be optimistic, will you? Well, certainly we
can't leave it to systems of power, the systems again
that are designed to do exactly what they're doing. We
can't leave it to them to um to keep us safe.
(28:09):
Like right, we know police are not what they say
that they are. And what you know, they spend millions
and millions and millions of dollars a year, in fact,
probably billions of dollars a year across the nation doing
public campaigns just to try to generate trust. It's like
the most ridiculous thing. And then you think about how
much you know, Hollywood actually does that work for them too.
When you think of crime and Punishment television Law and Order,
where they sweep up the streets in seven minutes, right
(28:32):
and like, um, everything is is like resolved at the
end and the bad guys in the prison and the
cop got to beat him up because they knew deep
in their gut that it was the right thing to do,
even though it was extra legal. And we've normalized that
to the extent that like we watched that on and
we consume it at this level. Right, So so really,
like you know, the systems like this, like Biden even
(28:53):
you know, you know, walking out and saying how much
money he's going to spend on police and reinforcing that
very system that we know is killing us is just
not you can't rely on that too to be able
to um to fix it. So I always say, like
local organizing, and we follow the work of Adrian Marie Brown,
who is the author of a book called Emergent Strategy,
and one of the things she talks about is that
(29:15):
change must be fractal, right, Like, so fractal meaning that
you know, whatever is on the small scale should also
be able to reflect on the larger scale. But I
I often tell our communities when we have community meetings, like,
you can't expect the government, the larger systems of power
to to do these things that you're you're hoping for,
like right to save the community, to address harm and
(29:36):
not just like right, throw people in cages. You can't
expect them to do that if you cannot do that
on a smaller scale here in our communities. So I
always tell people like, even though it seems like it's
an insurmountable goal, like how do I get to bide
and and tell him don't spend on police? Right? It isn't.
It isn't. What in fact it is is like addressing
the stuff in your living room, right, talking to your neighbor,
(29:57):
explaining these systems that seem largely like you, they're they're mystified.
You can't really understand what's really behind them, Like why
we just unpacked how prisons feed development and gentrification. Right,
and it's all dollars, Right, we unpacked that here on
this on this show. But like sitting at your table
at dinner with your spouse or your neighbor or you know, kids,
(30:18):
and especially kids, right that if we can start to
develop these notions that this change is necessary on that
small scale, it will begin to grow to the larger scale.
So I always say that local organizing is the most
important thing, and it gives way right to those larger
pushes of systems that are much greater than us. And
it doesn't feel then, right like this insurmountable goal. In fact,
(30:41):
you build people power. I was just one organizer doing
prosecutor accountability work in Phoenix for a long time, and
now we have a ten thousand strong um base that
we mobilize to do all types of political organizing here
in Merricopa County. And that was just in two years
because we worked doing these little small conversations we used
to me in my living room. And now it's just
(31:01):
this whole other type of movement now and again it's
is a movement that pulled out the largest, the strongest
seat in legal law enforcement in Arizona, and it's the
third largest prosecuting agency in the nation, in the fourth
largest county in the nation, in the fifth highs and
cars rader in the nation. We black people are organization
(31:22):
uninstalled and oligarch by just doing that sitting in living
rooms and talking about and educating people so it can
be done. So if you're hopeless, like right, like build
power on a local level and get your army built.
And I don't like army. That's a horrible word, right,
that's a militarized force. Again, by this is like build,
build your your your community and strengthen it. And that
(31:45):
then you get taken more seriously right by those systems
of power. So don't give up, do that local work. Amen,
and more power to you. And now, um, Lola, we
turned to my favorite part of the show, which is
our final two segments, and the first one is really fun.
The first one is called the Magic one Question. The
(32:05):
Magic one question works like this, I think I could
kind of anticipate what you're gonna say, but I you
surprised me a lot of times today. Ready, So the
magic one question works like this. Basically, it presupposes that
I have a magic wand and I could grant you
one wish. What would it be? Goodness, Um, it's either
(32:27):
abolished police or if it's not too much to ask,
I would just say meet everybody's needs. We wouldn't need them.
If that was the case, anyone wouldn't believe we needed
them to begin with. That's a great answer. I'm not
surprised you didn't disappoint. And then the final segment of
our show is called Words of Wisdom, and this part
(32:50):
works like this. First of all, I thank you again
just for being who you are. I mean, courage, brains,
and energy. I don't know that that's a pretty powerful combination.
And you've got them all in quantities that are unfathomable.
So it's fantastic to talk to you and to learn
(33:12):
from you. So I appreciate that. And then words of
Wisdom is where I turn my microphone off, leave my
headphones on, kick back in my chair, and just listen
to any parting words of wisdom you want to share
with me in our audience. Wow, okay, um, I'm gonna
I'm gonna share our ten principles and if you can
(33:35):
vibe with those, I will tell you at the end
you might be surprised. Our very first one is love
and rigor. It takes all of us to dismantle the system,
and we won't always agree on everything, but because of
love for the community and each other, we work through
challenges instead of walking away. That's principle one. Principle two
as we center black liberation. So despite how black, brown,
(33:56):
poor indigenous people get caught up in the system, is
actually designed to target it and oppressed black people. So
by liberating black people, we all get free. Um Number
three is the system isn't broken. It was designed this way.
The system is designed to exploit and imprisoned black and
brown and poor people, and the system as we know
it cannot be fixed or reformed. We have to work
to dismantle it. Number four is it's all of us,
(34:18):
are none of us. Liberation for one person at the
expense of another is not liberation at all. We got
to seek liberation for all people, regardless of our differences.
We can't discriminate. The fifth is justice reinvestment. The money
that currently goes into caging people should be spent strengthening
our communities. Number six is there's a difference between crime
and harm. Crime is defined by people with power, often
(34:40):
to preserve that power, and there's no connection to actually
um what harms us in harms the community or restoration
from those harms. Number seven is there we should always
put people over property. Human life is always more important
than profit and property. Number eight, we focus on healing
and personal transformation. We seek to dismantle the current system
of punishment and retribution and focus on personal health and healing.
(35:04):
Number nine, You've got to center the leadership of directly
impacted people because the people closest to the problem are
always closest to the solution. And last, but certainly not least,
putting people in cages is never the answer, full stop.
If you can rock with that, then you actually are
an abolitionist. That's an invitation. Thank you for listening to
(35:33):
Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam. I'd like to thank our
production team Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea, Jeff Kleber and Lila
Robinson and Kevin Wardis. The music in this production was
supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer j Ralph. Follow
us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava for Good.
You can also follow me on both TikTok and Instagram
at It's Jason Flom. Righteous Convictions with Jason plom Is
(35:57):
a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and Association would
say company number one
Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flom podcast, where I
speak with people who see the wrong in the world
and are driven to make it right. Today, I'm speaking
with a woman who, while incarcerated, began campaigning for prisoners rights.
Upon her release, she continued her grassroots organizing, building a
movement that successfully targeted police practices and corrupt officials in
(00:32):
her home county of Mariposa, Arizona. Dismantling systems and institutions
that hold the power may seem like the purview of superheroes,
but Lolas Ango says it can be done by any
of us, and the work starts at home, sitting at
your table at dinner with your spouse or your neighbor
or you know, kids, and especially kids. If we can
(00:55):
start to develop these notions that this change is necessary
on that small scale, it will begin to grow to
the larger scale. So I always say, build your community
and strengthen it, and that then you get taken more
seriously right by those systems of power. Right now, on
Righteous Convictions, Lolas Angle m Welcome back to Righteous Convictions
(01:39):
with Jason flam My guest today has an amazing resume,
and I think this one is a first for us. Lola,
you are a catering manager. You earned a degree in
fire science, and you were the co founder of Humanities
Behind the Walls, which you started while incarcerated. And you're
currently the executive director of Mass Liberation Arizona, which is
an organization. I'm very excited to learn more about myself.
(02:02):
So welcome, saying go to Righteous Convictions. Hello, Hello, thank
you for having me. I'm so happy to have you
here to tell us about your extraordinary journey. So let's
just jump right into it. What is your origin story?
I mean, like, how in the world did you become you? Well,
that's um, that's an interesting question. So I guess you
(02:24):
did find out that I was a catering manager, actually
was a wedding planner before I went to prison, and
even better, you know, isn't it funny? And and then
I I started out I wanted to be a firefighter
when I was young, and and then I decided that
I was going to get into catering sales. I decided
to become a wedding planner. It was something I really
was passionate about. I really thought that, like that's where
(02:45):
I was going to land in my career as UM.
You know, I was a younger person, and then suddenly
my life changed and I ended up UM finding myself
prosecuted by the Americopa County Attorney's Office in two thousand two,
and in two thousand three, UM I was convicted of
an offense and sent to prison and where I was
(03:05):
set to be there for twelve years and in Arizona,
because it's a truth and sentencing state. I ended up
spending ten point to never forget the point to those
count years in prison. And it was during the time
I was It didn't take long. I was there for
about five minutes to before I recognized there was overt racism,
ag ism, UM that there was this whole dynamic of punitive,
(03:27):
like there's such this punishing environment, and I couldn't figure
out really what there was to do about that. I
hadn't really prisons weren't on my radar when I was younger.
I had no idea like about crime and punishment. I
didn't vote UM toward like anything that had you with prisons,
and so I was really caught off guard by just
how bad it was and the conditions were really awful,
(03:48):
and I started just to listen to people's stories, and
I started to find out it just wasn't what we
thought it was. And during the time that I was there,
I really couldn't sit still and sort of witnessed this
behavior and also was happening, you know, towards me to
this overt racism and this this like super violent system
um that really just humanized you on a daily basis.
And I started to organize while I was inside, and
(04:09):
I didn't even realize I was doing it. I really
started to recognize that there was organizing probably for the
latter part of my sentence, when I was introduced to
abolition as like a theory of change, and I was like,
holy wow, I've been in here organizing this whole time.
And and yeah, so once I got an idea of
what abolition was, I actually was. I was sitting in
(04:30):
a dorm room um with like three women and there
was a mail call. It was so strange because like
everybody suddenly had a legal meal. Was like like three
people and they all had legal mail in an air
in prison in Arizona. When you get legal mail, you
have to like sign for it. Guards aren't able to
open it. It's a hole to do and suddenly, like
(04:50):
everybody in the dorm had. It was a huge disruption,
was like a four hour mail call and I was like, wow,
I guess I'm gonna get legal mail. What's this about?
And I walked up to go get the legal mail
and was a newsletter. It was called the Abolitionists and
it came from an organization out of the Bay Area
called Critical Resistance. And I opened it up and I
saw myself in there. I saw prison art. I saw
(05:12):
stories of black liberation. I saw how people are dehumanized
by the system. And it was run by and written
by people who were formally incarcerated. And I just sat
down on the floor and like drank it all. And
I was so thirsty for it. And I also recognized
it wasn't lost on me, this huge disruption that they
caused within the prison to get get it to me.
And I was like, wow, okay, this is what is it?
(05:33):
So Ever since then, I've been an abolitionist and the
rest of history. So that was your like Eureka moment.
And it's interesting too, because Arizona is you know, I
think when people think of Arizona, they think of our pile,
they think of his disgusting treatment of well, immigrants in
particular and Latinos, but everybody who was locked up in
(05:53):
his quote unquote his jails as he would call them, right,
And you know it's also a place where I had
Prisons have existed for quite some time. Um, you know,
I think almost most people get the private prisons need
to be abolished, But your work is an abolition writ large.
(06:14):
And so there you have this incredible moment right where
you're you know, it's almost like you got hit by
the lightning bolt. What happens next, Well, you know, I
started to realize that there could be a framework to
the organizing I had done been largely reactionary, just sort
(06:35):
of dealing with the day to day um conditions of confinement,
like was there inhumane like the food where they were
they serving horrible food? Where people not getting medical treatment.
I was doing like sort of one at a time
advocacy for folks inside, and I actually had joined what
was called the community Forum where I would go sort
of like represent the entire yard at like these conversations
(06:58):
with not only the warden of the prison, but sometimes
the regional operations directors and high level administrators. And I
started to recognize that there's a pattern here, and it's
actually UM. The way power moves within UM that institution
is not unlike how it moves in corporate America, which
is also another light bulb moment where always talked about
private prisons and their interests are no different and you
can actually sit at the table and negotiate things in
(07:21):
ways that UM that I was just really surprised by,
and I just I started to learn right that they
didn't really understand that punishment was part of their pathology,
that they really thought that they had somehow operationalized the
sort of warehousing of people. And I was able to
really get into this theory work with folks that really
worked like they worked in high level roles, and it
was really interesting to sort of unpack the ways that
(07:42):
they tell the stories that tell themselves to be able
to do the work. It largely informed the way I
approached this work. Now I consider myself not only a
community organizer, but an institutional organizer that I've learned if
you can argued down on the director of Corrections literally
with the belly chain and handcuffs on, and talk them
through like reorganizing the way that they manage their power,
(08:03):
and I negotiate outcomes that benefit folk inside the prison.
Really coming outside and working with city council or like
prosecutors or you know, the mayor, the governor, those folks,
it's not you know, you don't stand to lose as
much as you did inside. So I started to recognize, like, look,
I can actually challenge really powerful systems, not just me
as an individual, but building people power UM on the ground.
(08:23):
And it really that work inside the prison largely informed
how I approached this political organizing I do now today.
And I live in South Phoenix. I organized in South
Phoenix and if you if you know about South Phoenix,
it is UM. There was a spatial map done in
twelve by a PhD student UM, and I wish I
could cite this person's name, but I can't. And when
(08:54):
I came home from prison and I tried to co
live in the community that I I used to live
in an South Phoenix where I was incarcerated from and
tried to return back home to, I realized that having
like looked at that spatial nap and found out that Arizona,
South Phoenix particularly was situated as one of the most
like the most concentrations of million dollar blocks in the US.
(09:17):
It suddenly came clear to me, like, holy crap, I
was always going to prison, Like I was raised in
this community. This community is designed in this way, the
ways in which power moves for that community. It's a
red lined part of town where predominantly black and brown
people live. I was always going to prison. And so
I guess when I started to make those connections after
(09:38):
I came home from prison, I started to realize weight
Now I know how to move power. I know how
to move power in a different way than I ever
did coming into the prison. I've actually learned how to
negotiate outcomes in a way that is principled and is
actually holding true to these values. And I'm an abolitionist
and I need to do this work now here on
the ground. And that's really um yeah, that's effective sort
(10:00):
of how the rest of this organizing takes flight. And
so I'm here on the ground. I'm trying to look
for folks I'm black, um directly impacted. I'm trying to
look for an organization that's like an abolitionist organization where
I can go and like bring these theories of change.
And I looked around and I didn't find any of
that in Phoenix. In fact, what I did find was
a largely brown lead movement UM that was really focused
(10:21):
on police accountability, which was great, but through like a
migrant rights lens. So I didn't see myself in the organizing.
So I had all these tools, right, learning how to
move power, learning how to negotiate outcomes, learning how to
be principled as an abolitionist, and nowhere to put it.
And so eventually I just figured I was going to
have to do this work myself and started to build base.
(10:41):
I worked with a project that's a national project called
Mass Liberation Project, and they were effectively like showing up
all over the country doing prosecutor accountability work, and they were,
you know, coming into key races in Arizona. Being the
third largest prosecuting agency in the nation at Maricopa County
was something that was on the radar and UM, so
they showed up and I just started taking their political
(11:04):
education program. I became a fellow with their fellowship program.
And then suddenly I was like, wait a minute, police
kill us in the streets with guns, but we don't
often talk about how prosecutors kill us in court with
with long sentences and death penalties right like, and so
why aren't we doing this work? I remember what it
was like being prosecuted, and then suddenly my vision for
(11:26):
an organization that is black liberation focused, directly impacted lead
situated in South Phoenix, home of the Million Dollar Block,
began Righteous Convictions with Jason flam Is super excited and
(11:52):
honored to have the support of a great organization like
Galaxy Gives. Galaxy Gives leads the filmthropic efforts of the
Novograds family. They invest in organizations, campaigns, and leaders who
are directly impacted by and working to dismantle the current
punitive justice system. Galaxy Gives also builds power for the
community's most harmed by mass incarceration and forges transformative solutions
(12:14):
for responding to that harm. They envision a society where
the structural barriers created by racism, poverty, and inequality are
no more, where instead all people have the dignity, freedom,
and rights needed to thrive. The million dollar blocks, I
(12:37):
can't believe I've never heard of that before. I'm just
processing that, right. So million dollar blocks are blocks, literally
city blocks right where we're spending a million dollars a
year to keep people locked up? Did I get that right? Yeah?
What an incredible, incredible concept. You know, it only recently
(12:57):
came to light inside of New York City Controller. We
should report saying that it's costing New Yorkers five sixty
five thousand dollars a year to keep one person incarcerated
at Rikers Island. And isn't that ironic that the million
dollar blocks have got to be almost exclusively concentrated in
the poorest areas, right? What a juxtaposition that is. And
(13:20):
so when people say the system is broken, like I
just really wish that we could just fix it, Like,
this is why abolition is so important. Right, The system
is not broken. It's designed to do exactly what it's doing.
So when you're talking about these poor communities, right having
million dollar blocks, this is just this is just the design.
So what is the significance? I mean, it's an incredible phrase,
(13:43):
a million dollar block. But what now that you've identified
this thing and you've you've coined this incredible phrase, what
do we do with million dollar blocks? Where does it
go from a phrase to how do you utilize that? Well?
You know, I think, um, we don't often recognize that
(14:03):
displacement is at the heart of this problem. So I
mentioned earlier on when we first started talking that I
was incarcerated out of South Phoenix, but I couldn't return
to it UM. And that's because once you are incarcerated,
you have this felony on your record, and you can't
pass background checks, and there's all of these exclusionary laws
and rules that prevent you from being able to rent
(14:24):
in communities. And you know, just recognizing that again, system
isn't broken. It was designed this way. Million dollar blocks
are actually designed to clear the path for gentrification. And
so just really looking more deeply at like these systems
again were designed with white supremacy in mind, like right
to be able to hold onto white privilege and wealth.
They were designed um really ultimately to to um Rithe
(14:50):
Wilson Gilmore talks about this UM in the Golden gulag
Um really predisposed black and brown people to early death UM.
And you see it, like right in all statistics, you
can actually look at how displacement actually is directly tied
to early death. But people don't often recognize that prison
is an actual feeder of displacement. And so when you
think about right, like million dollar blocks, and how it's
(15:12):
taking people off of the street and putting them into
prison systems, removing them from their communities and they can't
return back to them. It effectively clears the path for gentrification.
It's displacing people. So I actually worked on a project
called Rename, Remain and Reclaim South Phoenix. And it's because
those of us have been displaced, right have um And
you can actually see this, you know, playing out here
(15:32):
in South Phoenix where you know, um, a light rail
is being built and now suddenly all of these like
hipster burritos or fifty dollars each and you can't sit
down and do a coffee shop and not you know,
have a secret handshake and like you have to spend
you know, a ton of money to get some kind
of like fancy drink. And it's not South Phoenix. When
I was younger, you could drove through it with my
(15:53):
my friends and they would lock their doors. They didn't
want to be in South Phoenix. It was like we're
drive by shootings happened and such. Right after you sweep
everybody out, you've stick them in a cage. You then
clear the path right for what is now development. UM
that is designed specifically to bring in white folk and
to displace black folks, and so it's a much deeper conversation,
(16:13):
it's a longer story. I'm down to talk to you
anytime you want to about all of these systems because
I think, ultimately, like you have folks who are directly
impacted by these systems, we're the ones who are closest
the problem, and so we oftentimes really have the solutions,
but not not a lot of people are asking. So
I mean, I'm actually really grateful to you for for
reaching out and wanting to talk about these details. Because
your platform right where you're sharing it with with a
(16:35):
broader reach, folks can become educated about these things. It's
those of us who are stuck in cages that don't
make our way into the two folks rooms to talk
to them about these important details. So yeah, but I'm
down to talk about it in greater detail. But the
bottom line is, million dollar blocks are designed to white
people out, displace them, and clear the path for development.
And then the million dollar block actually can become a
(16:56):
million dollar block right and the only people that are
harmed are the people who are most vulnerable, which is
how the system works. Right, and it's exactly I mean,
it's almost a perfect microcosm of the way it's designed
and everything that you and I and so many others
(17:20):
are fighting against. But it's an incredibly powerful way to
look at it, and I think we need to amplify
that concept when you think of that list, And a
lot of times people think of us as like, oh,
your dreamers, you just you you you want this thing
to like, you know, to the to erase prisons, erase police,
and have no accountability, to be a free for all
(17:41):
in wild. But I don't actually think people fully understand
that when the system isn't broken, it was designed this way,
there is no reform to it. Like you can't reform
something that is this off like um purpose for like
you know, the well being of people. It claims to
be a thing, but it doesn't actually do that thing.
And so I always take people back in their mind
to like when you think of enslaved individuals right back
(18:03):
way back when, and they had no independent recollection of
what it was like to live free. They didn't still
meet in alleyways and churches and behind buildings and whisper
about how do you make slavery better? How do you
make this system that's designed and it's it's totally legal,
much like our president police like, how do you make
(18:23):
a system that was totally designed to do this thing better?
How do we improve slavery? They didn't. They didn't have
a world in mind either, because there was nothing for
them to look toward for themselves. And they are generationally
been embedded in the system that has been gratuitous violence
and throughout their whole lives, and they were still able
to dream of abolition. So when people go, oh, what
(18:44):
do you want to do instead? What do you do
with the most violent? What do you do with the
what do you do with the centering? That question is
superficial and it's really not the point. We can absolutely
develop those systems, but we have to recognize is that
this perfect legal system policing in prison is designed to
do exactly what it's doing, and there is no reform
(19:05):
out there that is going to make it better. Is
freaking works? Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. Um,
you know it does beg the question though, and you
you raised it yourself, so I'm going to unabashedly raise
it again, even though you're tired of hearing it and
you've already kind of given your answer, right, but there
(19:26):
is definitely a strong, you know, sort of counter, you
know force there. Whatever are people who are progressive or
consider themselves to be prison and are progressive. Let's face it,
who say, well, we'll wait a minute, so pick a name.
Dylan roof Right goes in and shoots up a church.
A whole bunch of people died. In a world where
(19:48):
we don't have any prisons or police, what do we
do with somebody like that? And I understand by the
way I understand, we want to build towards the society
where people like him don't need to exist, because you know,
there's services and and there's social programs designed to help
head off the type of mental illness and other conditions
(20:12):
that drive people like him to do things like that.
Of course, we also like to have a society whether
aren't more guns than people, But in the meantime, that's
not where we are. So what do you do if
if you have no police in prisons with a guy
like him? Well, first I want to just say I
am not convinced to that there's a mental health issue there,
so I certainly don't want to excuse his behavior and
(20:34):
any ideas of accountability because of a mental health condition
for a person who was you know, just as egregiously
violent as Dylan Roof. But I do want to say
that communities have been solving and resolving you know, responses
to harm for centuries, right, So I would just I
would say this right for me to create a recipe
(20:55):
for how do we deal with the one individual case
right at Dylan Roof, And I answer that question for
you today, It's still going to lead more to more
questions because that's not the same um can You know,
every situation is complex, and I think that's where our
first and foremost problem in thinking begins is that there
would be a like canned solution for a person like
Dylan Roof. What we would have to ask if we're
(21:17):
talking about how to respond to the harm that Dylan
Roove caused, we have to first look at the people
most directly impacted, So that's the family's right who were
harmed by this right, and we also have to look
at the this person who is the harm or harm
is something you know, and I just want to say too,
as a really important principle, there is a difference between
crime and harm. Crime is something that is defined by
(21:39):
the state, designed by people with power, and often times
to protect that power. Harm is very different. So if
you want to talk about the crime Dilan has committed,
and like how we respond to crime and we put
him in a cage, it doesn't address the actual harm,
doesn't actually address what happened to the family, doesn't address
what actually maybe lead him to this position. And people
don't usually enter into harm by having caused it. There's
(22:00):
a cycle of harm that led to Dylan Roof becoming
who he was. Anyway, we don't address any of that.
The systems that cause it, like the systems themselves like
white supremacy, right and whatever else he was able to
subscribe to to brew this hate into his heart, and
it doesn't address preventing it again in the future. So
what I'm talking about when I talk about crime and
resolving it by putting somebody in a cage like Dylan Ruf,
(22:21):
none of those things. None of those things have been addressed.
And and so it I can just tell you now
that the system that we have now does none of
what it claims to do. But what I do want
to say is that as an abolitionist, which is a
very sophisticated type of thought. It isn't superficial. In fact,
superficial is looking at it by by you know, pulling
(22:41):
a guy off the street and sticking him in the
cage and calling it a day, and again not addressing
the family, not addressing himself and his issues, not addressing
the systems that caused it or how to prevent it. Um,
that's superficial. Now, if you think think about abolition, you
need to think about every layer, right, like all of
those things. And so what we'd have to do to
decide what we do with Dylan ruf as community, right
is we'd have to then talk about who was harmed
(23:04):
and how are they restored? And you can't do that
for them. You have to work with them to determine
what it is that restores them. And you can't be
restored obviously from a violent act like that completely. But
there are things that family can tell you that they want.
And sometimes it is punitive in fact, when you have
nothing else to dream of, your first answer will be
for it to be punitive. But we should work to
figuring out right what truly restores them. In fact, you
(23:27):
see people getting executed constantly in this country and you
see the families who called for it in court, the victims,
families who called for in court, and then when the
person is executed, they come back and they're like, I
don't feel any better. It's because nothing was restored. And
I've talked to people who are who are deemed by
the system victims, and so often the system leaves them
(23:47):
completely empty handed. And so when you ask me the
question of what do we do with somebody is a serious,
seriously violent situation, Like Dylan Roof, we asked the family.
We work with families, We figure out what in the
world lad this guy to this situation, and we address
some of those harms too, because that's how you get
into preventing, and then you start looking at the systems
that caused it and you start addressing those as well.
(24:31):
So let's talk about the other aspects of your work, right,
reimagining communities. You're you are as understanding reimagining communities, fellow
with the National Council from incarcerated and formally incarcerated women
and girls. What an important thing to talk about in
this country that incarceerates women at a rate that is
(24:53):
unprecedented the history of civilization. Yeah, that is powerful and
that is sobering, and uh, it is true. And I
was in a woman's prison in two thousand and three
I got there. It's doubled in size now in terms
of not size actually no, definitely not size. They're just
grouping more people into rooms. Um. They it's doubled in
(25:14):
population um. And it's really really astounding to hear some
of the stories of what led to the outcome where
women are facing decades and lifetimes in in prison. And
it is again, you know, as my work as an
abolitionist oftentimes looking at how we're responding to harm and
just recognizing that there is such this difference between like
(25:37):
this notion that you know, you put the bad person
in the cage and then they'll stop being bad, and
all of society it's just swept away um out of
your eyesight. You don't have to worry about the domestic
violence that led to it, you don't have to worry
about the poverty that led to it, you don't have
to worry about the racism that led to it. You
don't have to worry about any of those systems. And
so it just keeps repeating itself and this other system
(25:57):
that you know, is judicial just sort of like as
a well oiled machine, just choose people up and stick
them in too. And so what I did with the
National Council as a fellow was I really took a
look at how we're destroying families and actually the genocide
of it all, right, putting women into prison during their
childbearing years, um, and really denying people the opportunity to
have families in space them. It's a human right right
(26:18):
to decide to decide how you want to build your
family and space your children and um. And the car
strail system interrupting that is really super violent and it's
actually an untold story. Mostly folks don't even think about that,
about how how you're not able to maintain relationships and
how actually Department Child Services and the like all across
(26:40):
the nation are are taking the babies away from incarcerated
people all over all over the country at a rate
that's astounding, and and finding that like, these families are
broken apart and not really recognizing at the end of
the day, when disproportionate amount of black people end up
in in prisons and jails, that that is tantamount to genocide.
That was my work there. Yeah, that's another very um
(27:04):
do you just have you just have an interesting way
of crystallizing these issues that um, I think it's really
important because these messages that there has to be a
way to cut through, and some of these little pressure
points that you've identified are so so powerful. So, Lola,
I'm trying to stay optimistic and hopeful while at the
(27:26):
same time watching you know Biden, who I'm very grateful
too because he's winning the election, probably saved the entire
planet from imminent destruction. But at the same time, he
is who he is, and he's just put thirty two
billion more dollars in the budget for police and prisons,
(27:46):
And I'm sitting here going what I mean, give me
a reason to be optimistic, will you? Well, certainly we
can't leave it to systems of power, the systems again
that are designed to do exactly what they're doing. We
can't leave it to them to um to keep us safe.
(28:09):
Like right, we know police are not what they say
that they are. And what you know, they spend millions
and millions and millions of dollars a year, in fact,
probably billions of dollars a year across the nation doing
public campaigns just to try to generate trust. It's like
the most ridiculous thing. And then you think about how
much you know, Hollywood actually does that work for them too.
When you think of crime and Punishment television Law and Order,
where they sweep up the streets in seven minutes, right
(28:32):
and like, um, everything is is like resolved at the
end and the bad guys in the prison and the
cop got to beat him up because they knew deep
in their gut that it was the right thing to do,
even though it was extra legal. And we've normalized that
to the extent that like we watched that on and
we consume it at this level. Right, So so really,
like you know, the systems like this, like Biden even
(28:53):
you know, you know, walking out and saying how much
money he's going to spend on police and reinforcing that
very system that we know is killing us is just
not you can't rely on that too to be able
to um to fix it. So I always say, like
local organizing, and we follow the work of Adrian Marie Brown,
who is the author of a book called Emergent Strategy,
and one of the things she talks about is that
(29:15):
change must be fractal, right, Like, so fractal meaning that
you know, whatever is on the small scale should also
be able to reflect on the larger scale. But I
I often tell our communities when we have community meetings, like,
you can't expect the government, the larger systems of power
to to do these things that you're you're hoping for,
like right to save the community, to address harm and
(29:36):
not just like right, throw people in cages. You can't
expect them to do that if you cannot do that
on a smaller scale here in our communities. So I
always tell people like, even though it seems like it's
an insurmountable goal, like how do I get to bide
and and tell him don't spend on police? Right? It isn't.
It isn't. What in fact it is is like addressing
the stuff in your living room, right, talking to your neighbor,
(29:57):
explaining these systems that seem largely like you, they're they're mystified.
You can't really understand what's really behind them, Like why
we just unpacked how prisons feed development and gentrification. Right,
and it's all dollars, Right, we unpacked that here on
this on this show. But like sitting at your table
at dinner with your spouse or your neighbor or you know, kids,
(30:18):
and especially kids, right that if we can start to
develop these notions that this change is necessary on that
small scale, it will begin to grow to the larger scale.
So I always say that local organizing is the most
important thing, and it gives way right to those larger
pushes of systems that are much greater than us. And
it doesn't feel then, right like this insurmountable goal. In fact,
(30:41):
you build people power. I was just one organizer doing
prosecutor accountability work in Phoenix for a long time, and
now we have a ten thousand strong um base that
we mobilize to do all types of political organizing here
in Merricopa County. And that was just in two years
because we worked doing these little small conversations we used
to me in my living room. And now it's just
(31:01):
this whole other type of movement now and again it's
is a movement that pulled out the largest, the strongest
seat in legal law enforcement in Arizona, and it's the
third largest prosecuting agency in the nation, in the fourth
largest county in the nation, in the fifth highs and
cars rader in the nation. We black people are organization
(31:22):
uninstalled and oligarch by just doing that sitting in living
rooms and talking about and educating people so it can
be done. So if you're hopeless, like right, like build
power on a local level and get your army built.
And I don't like army. That's a horrible word, right,
that's a militarized force. Again, by this is like build,
build your your your community and strengthen it. And that
(31:45):
then you get taken more seriously right by those systems
of power. So don't give up, do that local work. Amen,
and more power to you. And now, um, Lola, we
turned to my favorite part of the show, which is
our final two segments, and the first one is really fun.
The first one is called the Magic one Question. The
(32:05):
Magic one question works like this, I think I could
kind of anticipate what you're gonna say, but I you
surprised me a lot of times today. Ready, So the
magic one question works like this. Basically, it presupposes that
I have a magic wand and I could grant you
one wish. What would it be? Goodness, Um, it's either
(32:27):
abolished police or if it's not too much to ask,
I would just say meet everybody's needs. We wouldn't need them.
If that was the case, anyone wouldn't believe we needed
them to begin with. That's a great answer. I'm not
surprised you didn't disappoint. And then the final segment of
our show is called Words of Wisdom, and this part
(32:50):
works like this. First of all, I thank you again
just for being who you are. I mean, courage, brains,
and energy. I don't know that that's a pretty powerful combination.
And you've got them all in quantities that are unfathomable.
So it's fantastic to talk to you and to learn
(33:12):
from you. So I appreciate that. And then words of
Wisdom is where I turn my microphone off, leave my
headphones on, kick back in my chair, and just listen
to any parting words of wisdom you want to share
with me in our audience. Wow, okay, um, I'm gonna
I'm gonna share our ten principles and if you can
(33:35):
vibe with those, I will tell you at the end
you might be surprised. Our very first one is love
and rigor. It takes all of us to dismantle the system,
and we won't always agree on everything, but because of
love for the community and each other, we work through
challenges instead of walking away. That's principle one. Principle two
as we center black liberation. So despite how black, brown,
(33:56):
poor indigenous people get caught up in the system, is
actually designed to target it and oppressed black people. So
by liberating black people, we all get free. Um Number
three is the system isn't broken. It was designed this way.
The system is designed to exploit and imprisoned black and
brown and poor people, and the system as we know
it cannot be fixed or reformed. We have to work
to dismantle it. Number four is it's all of us,
(34:18):
are none of us. Liberation for one person at the
expense of another is not liberation at all. We got
to seek liberation for all people, regardless of our differences.
We can't discriminate. The fifth is justice reinvestment. The money
that currently goes into caging people should be spent strengthening
our communities. Number six is there's a difference between crime
and harm. Crime is defined by people with power, often
(34:40):
to preserve that power, and there's no connection to actually
um what harms us in harms the community or restoration
from those harms. Number seven is there we should always
put people over property. Human life is always more important
than profit and property. Number eight, we focus on healing
and personal transformation. We seek to dismantle the current system
of punishment and retribution and focus on personal health and healing.
(35:04):
Number nine, You've got to center the leadership of directly
impacted people because the people closest to the problem are
always closest to the solution. And last, but certainly not least,
putting people in cages is never the answer, full stop.
If you can rock with that, then you actually are
an abolitionist. That's an invitation. Thank you for listening to
(35:33):
Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam. I'd like to thank our
production team Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea, Jeff Kleber and Lila
Robinson and Kevin Wardis. The music in this production was
supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer j Ralph. Follow
us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava for Good.
You can also follow me on both TikTok and Instagram
at It's Jason Flom. Righteous Convictions with Jason plom Is
(35:57):
a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and Association would
say company number one
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