February 8, 2022 • 29 mins
Former NBA star Caron Butler was born and raised in Racine, Washington, where as a teenager, Caron had repeated run-ins with the law. The last time resulted in 14 months in juvie where he realized his basketball talent. Caron became a successful professional basketball player, tv commentator, and eventually an assistant coach, but more importantly, his experience with the criminal justice system has driven him to a life dedicated to improving relations between law enforcement and communities of color, as well as helping young people reach their potential.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam, the podcast where
I speak with people who see the wrong in the
world and are driven to make it right. Today, I'm
speaking with a man who escaped drug dealing, street violence,
and our juvenile justice system, not only for a career
in the NBA, but a lifetime devoted to improving the
situation that could have robbed him of his potential. You know,
(00:23):
one of the greatest hardest of all time, you know, biggie,
You know the only way you can make it out
selling crack rock or a wicked jump shot. When I
was incarcerated, I gotta tell you, I've seen some of
the most amazing athletes ever. Man. We lost so many gifted,
talented brothers to the system, and we're still losing so
many gifted, talented people to the system. Through his own
(00:47):
foundation and the very Institute of Justice, he strives to
curb violence as well as build bridges between law enforcement
and communities of color. Karen Butler right now on Righteous Convictions.
(01:14):
Welcome back to Righteous Convictions with Chase Plum. Today's guest
is somebody you'll recognize as soon as I tell you
his name, and he's someone who actually makes me cooler
by degrees in the eyes of my son and probably
a lot of other people, just by having him on
the show. And before I even get into why this
makes so much sense to have you here, let me
introduce Karen Butler. Karan, Welcome to Righteous Convictions. Thanks for
(01:38):
having me on, brother, it's a pleasure. Now. A lot
of you know a lot of stuff about Karan, his
incredible NBA career, college career, and his transformation into a
successful analyst and announcer for the NBA, But what you
may not know is what he had to overcome in
the criminal justice system. You are a living, breathing example
(02:00):
of why we need to reform the system and give
people like yourself a chance to become demand that you've become.
So let's rewind. You grew up in Racine, Wisconsin, right correct.
My family migrated to Wisconsin from the South. My great uncle,
uncle Eugene Thornton, had ran away from Mississippi because he
(02:25):
had slept with a white woman. They was looking for him,
and he had a dress up as a woman to
leave the state and bypassed a lot of states. But
that's how our family planted routes there in the state
of Wisconsin. But being black and the state of Wisconsin
in the early eighties and nineties was just a difficult thing.
(02:45):
It was extremely segregated. It still is in some regents.
And then people just had a segregated mindset where empowering
people that didn't look like them was not a thing.
It was always difficult growing up because everything that I've
seen from the second I jumped off the porch was
this violence and drug sales, you know, lack of opportunities,
(03:08):
you know, crabs and the barrel mentality. Also saw these
are some of the good things that I saw in
the community. I saw people, you know, coming together even
though it was a battle and the struggle to you know,
make it on a day to day basis. I saw,
you know, a lot of camaraderie and unity, you know.
So I knew it was love, but I also knew
that hate existed, and I also knew that everybody was
in survival mode. And you had numerous interactions with the
(03:32):
law right you were. I've read that you arrested over
a dozen times. Is that accurate? Yeah, lottering, guilt by association,
picked up for a day, slapped in detention, I mean,
you name it, and I'm a fast forward just for
a second. Even after I made millions of dollars, I
got pulled over, unrassed on a bicycle. I had to
(03:53):
put my hands up, asked me where my I D was?
Ad asked me did I have like a serial number
and all this this paperwork for riding a bicycle. Yeah,
it's straight up harassment. So and recine pre NBA startum
or really before you got into basketball at all, you
were harassed and building a rap sheet of inconsequential bullshit.
(04:15):
You know, teenage activity that goes unnoticed or unbothered in
other neighborhoods. You weren't exactly getting great representation either. I
was never represented by a lawyer that had I feel
like my best interests the public pretender. They always came
with bargains and plea deals that never benefited me short
(04:37):
term or long term. Every run in that I had,
even if I was guilty and not guilty of the crime,
but I was being convicted of as long as it
said it was no jail time attached probation. I don't
care how much short long I would accept it, because
I knew that the best thing for me was just
to not go to jail and just you know, stay free. You. Unfortunately,
(05:01):
it's a familiar story. And while there are some very
strong and well meaning public defenders, no doubt about it,
there are also those, and this is too common, who
are doing a little more than just processing people through
the system, you know, And with about eleven million people
being churned through our jails and prisons every year, it's
(05:22):
not like the chances of real justice taking place. I've
really improved from poor black and brown kids since you
went through it, and I'm glad you're here to shed
some light on that, because it affects all kids in
neighborhoods like the one you came from all over this country,
neighborhoods that are flushed with drugs, violence, and very very
little opportunities. So now, eventually, unfortunately, that environment got its
(05:44):
hooks into you, and you were involved in some drug
dealing which resulted in the rest of actual consequence. This time,
because I was on papers at the time, they told
me that I was already in violation of my parole
and I was facing two to four years in prison,
and it would have been a whole lot more had
you not been fifteen years old, right, But Okay, so
you end up locked up for how long on this charge?
(06:07):
In total, I was locked down fourteen months, And from
what I've read, it was during that time that you
really discovered basketball. I mean, but I mean, were you
a strong player, were you known around the way before
all of that, or was this like a totally new
thing to you. It's a right to imagine you picked
it up that late and got to where you got to.
You know what, My uncle Carlos went to some of
(06:28):
the most prestigious schools in the state of Wisconsin because
he was just a gifted mind and he also was
a talented basketball player. He was my idol and someone
I looked up to. Now, he had some costly decisions
by hanging around some people that probably wasn't the best
people in the world to hang around with. He was arrested.
He end up facing five years in the penitentiary. He
(06:51):
was banned from high school sports, and he was just
on the verge of becoming one of the most recruited
players in the state. And I saw how his life
was altered. So it wasn't until the correctional facility where
the light bulb went off where I had to think
about things that I can do the pastime, and basketball
(07:11):
was going to be one of those things to get
through that stretch, to get through my bid. You know,
it just all of a sudden made sense to you
that this was gonna be your destiny. And but you
hadn't up to this point. I mean, you weren't like
the dominant kid in the neighborhood playing ball or anything
like that. It just it's crazy, It sounds it sounds
like a movie. Honestly. The thing about me, and I
don't want to boast a brag about this, but for
(07:33):
the most part, whatever I ever put my mind in
my my like physical gifts towards, I was able to accomplish.
You know, since I was a kid, like if I
wanted to win a push up challenge, you know, fast
forward to you know, start hustling in the streets. I
wanted to be the best drug dealer at my age.
And I know that's one hell of a dumbass go
(07:54):
to pursue, but that's what it was at the time.
I wanted to be the best at what I was doing,
and I became that. And thank God for you know,
altering my life and my career path to put me
in that position where I was able to focus on
what the next chapter of my life was going to
be like, where you know, I pivot to something that
(08:16):
brought Jordan, my family, that brought joy to my life,
and it was basketball. I had a lot of hiccups
when I got out. I had a lot of distractions,
and people wanted me to convert back to my old self.
My uncle's was both locked up incarcerated. The mail role
models and figures that always turned to for God ince
and I didn't have them. Thank God for the strong
(08:39):
women that I had in my life, my mother, my grandmother.
They helped guide me and keep me on the straight
narrow once I, you know, got through the prep school
part of it, and I went to University of Connecticut
with the Hall of Fame coach Jim Calhoun, who taught
me about just the importance of family from a different aspect.
(09:01):
You want to make sure that everybody is okay, and
you want to take care of them. And I realized
that I had a gift that would possibly grant me
millions of dollars if I stayed committed to it. I mean,
it's quite a remarkable turnaround when you took it just
a few years from the time you're walking out of
that prison, trading in a number of back for your name,
and then two thousand two Big East Conference Men's Basketball
(09:22):
Player of the Year. I mean that is really that's
something like fairytale kind of stuff. It's amazing, but it's real.
And I signed my fifty million dollar deal with the
Washington Wizards. It was on October thirty one. Ten years
prior October thirty one, I was being sent to the
correctional facility. Ten years later, I'm signing one of the
biggest deals in my career and generational wealth created for
(09:46):
my family. I always thought about this going back and
making sure that with this platform, I would make sure
(10:08):
that I'm visible as possible, connected as possible, informed as possible,
and being able to, you know, reach as many people
as possible, uh specifically and strategically in my community and
then communities like mine. And that was the plan. I
wanted to create relationships with cops and kids and bring
(10:30):
awareness to some of the problems that I used to
go through. And I was just like, damn, people don't
recognize this. And this is before you know, social media
and before it was a trend to do things like this.
I just wanted to really lay down that groundwork and
just have those uncomfortable conversations and try to build those bridges.
You know, what could have faulted you for getting into
(10:50):
the n b A, living it up, just enjoying the
fruits of your labor, your fame, your newfound fortune. But
it was only two thousand and five, right, a handful
of years removed from the prison system, that you started
organizing community outreach programs, encouraging communication and building strong relationships
(11:11):
between young people in law enforcement. What inspired you to start, Well,
it's them from like the worst tragedy one of my
best friends, Robert Nellum, he was gunned down and killed
shortly after me signing that extension, and I had to
go back and literally look at my best friend in
(11:31):
the casket bury him. Uh. My wife had to do
all the arrangements and after we put him in in
the ground, and I thought about what the community was
feeling at the time he was murdered. He was gunned
down in a in a bathroom in the bar, and
I thought about like the backlash that was gonna come
(11:53):
from it, you know, with you know, rival gangs and everything,
and just just the energy of someone dying, and I
reached out to the police chief. We had a block party,
which you know, gatherings are always prohibited in a time
like this because that's a place where everybody can just
come together and do the most outlandish things if you
(12:16):
had any malice in your heart. But I built basketball
courts outside, and you know, I spoke, made it a
community function. I told them, if I'm able to be
here with the loss of my friend, the loss of
my love one, everyone else should be able to be here,
if his family and his mother and his sister, if
(12:37):
his loved ones are able to be here and not
you know, act in a violent way, you know that
want to build community and see good things going forward
stead of you know, more hate things like that. You
should all unify and come together and rally around something.
Let us a legacy and memory be a good thing.
And we had many moments like that in our community
(12:58):
where we had some of the highest gun rates, where
people was being shot down on the streets and racy
in Wisconsin, and we would have, you know, just get
togethers with the cops, with the community, and this provide
like those bridges and this togetherness and unity more so
than division. And you know I was in the middle
(13:20):
and help orchestrate a lot of those things. So from
this awful tragedy, you made something positive happen. You've got
this Cops and Kids program going, and you eventually created
the Three D Foundation, which honors students who have exemplify
the three DS of success. What are the three ds?
Three DS are really the foundation of everything. I stand for, determination, dedication,
(13:46):
and discipline. I think that I would not be anywhere
in life if I didn't have those qualities. And that's
how we had the mentality of going into it when
I started the foundation, where we just wanted to give
kids opportunity and used to do different things, you know,
whether it was experiences at basketball games, whether it's experiences
through reading and things like that. We try to create
(14:08):
those experiences. You know, we're a strong believer in seeing
this believing and that's what the Three D Foundation is
all about, giving kids a platform and opportunity to do
things outside the wildest dreams. You could check it out
on my website and that's Koran Butler dot com. Of course,
we'll have that length in the bio where you can
also check out Butler Holy Basketball program, which basically does
(14:30):
for other at risk youth what you did for yourself,
using basketball to focus the energies of kids in a
positive direction, giving them an opportunity and a path forward
that leads them away from the streets and towards confidence,
being able to commit to goals and integrity. You know,
when I interviewed Meek Mill, I asked him how many
other people as talented as he is we're stuck behind bars?
(14:53):
In his opinion, obviously it's impossible to know, and he
said more than I can count, And I don't think
he was being humble. Now, I got to ask you
the same question. How many NBA superstars have we lost
to the War on drugs too? Over incarceration, mass incarceration,
(15:14):
police brutality, etcetera. I mean, if you could try to
quantify that as best you can, I'd be interested in
your opinion. Thousands, thousands. Yeah, When you when you think
about the population of prisons over two point three two
point four million people and concentrated large percentage black and
(15:35):
brown community, When you think about the narrative that was
created all the way ranging back from the eighties and nineties,
you know, the only way that you can get out
these communities through you know, a source of entertainment. You know,
one of the greatest hardest of all time, you know, biggie,
you know, the only way you can make it out
selling crack rock or a wicked jump shop. And you know,
(15:58):
a majority of the brothers in the in the comunities,
you know, knew how to play basketball. You know, every
region had someplace where you could play basketball that was free.
You know, you can be doing some of the wickedest
things on these three corners, and you know, migrate to
a park or to a community center and hone on
your skills. And when I was incarcerated, I gotta tell you,
(16:19):
I've seen some of the the most amazing athletes ever
that can do things and veiled cruel ten isshoes that
they always gave you like a size too small, you know,
and these brothers was I'm talking about jumping six ft
in the air, you know, wind millers and taking it
through the legs. Before that was even the thing. Man,
(16:40):
we lost so many gifted talented brothers, you know, you know,
to the system, and we're still losing so many gifted
talented people to the system. In two thousand nineteen, you
(17:10):
joined the board of one of the most prestigious and
impactful organizations in the world of criminal justice reform. And
I speak, you know, with authority on this because I've
been doing this work since the early nineties and the
reputation of ERA is impeccable for people who aren't familiar
with VERA. Their main objectives are ending the criminalization of
(17:33):
people of color, immigrants, and people experiencing poverty. Right, it's
unbelievable that one of the two main reasons why people
get arrested in America is just for being homeless. The
other one, by the way, is driving on a suspended license.
So drastically reducing the use of jail's, prisons and detention
centers centered dignity and minimize the harms of criminal, legal
and immigration system involvement. I'm so glad that immigration is
(17:53):
part of that platform. And then the final tented of
the whole thing is supporting safe and thriving communities. I mean,
what work are you doing with them? Specifically? What I'm
involved with right now as we speak is stop solitary
confinement and the state of Connecticut solitary confinement is something
that really hurts people. I think that rehabilitation should be
(18:14):
the focal point for everybody. Barbara Fair had reached out
to me in New Haven. She brought it to the
House and I flew up down to the capital and
spoke on the Capitol law. I talked about my solitary
confinement stint and what I went through and what it
did to me, the trauma that I still have from
that experience, and also loved ones that have went through
(18:35):
that trauma and what they go through and some of
the people that can't come out of that dark space.
And we talked about all those things on the on
the law. The bill was passed Speed ten fifty nine.
Bill stopped solitary confinement in the state of Connecticut. Governor
Lamott overturned it. So now it's back up to get
past again, and it's something that we'll be fighting, you know,
(18:57):
hopefully we get it passed. But that's where I'm at
right now. Yeah, amen to that. And you know, as
we speak in New York City, it looks like we're
about to lose those gains that we made on solitary
confinement and getting rid of it. And it's a man,
it's one step forward, one step back. But you know,
in all the years I've been doing this work, there's
more momentum and more good people from all walks of
(19:19):
life that are on board with making these changes. And
it's gonna happen. It's just a question of when. And
it's a shame that people are still trying to undo
the good things that people like you and I and
others have done. But you know what, like you said,
all we can do is keep fighting because we're right.
It doesn't seem complicated. I don't know why it has
to be like this. I don't know why there's a
(19:41):
default to cruelty in our correction system. But you know,
other places in the Western world don't do it like
we do. And I think, you know, eventually we'll start
to treat our incarcerated population as human beings. And so
I guess now, having covered all of that ground, we've
got to talk about your autobiography, Tough Jues. I really
(20:01):
got to the point where I wanted to write this
book where I was spending time with Kobe in Los
Angeles my season that I played with the Lakers, and
he always writes down like all his you know, sometimes
his feelings, his emotions, things like that in real time
he just keep a journal of it. So I remember,
you know, probably four years after that experience, it was
(20:25):
probably two thousand eight or so, he tapped into me
after a game. He's like, hey, man, man keeping notes
and all that stuff. Man, you gotta you gott a
wicked story. Man, you got a hell of a journey.
You know, you all start now. You your philanthropist, you
you know, you're invest in entrepreneur, You've got businesses and
all this different stuff. And I was like, yeah, man,
it's pretty cool. And you know, I had to tell
(20:47):
a shameless lie. But I wasn't you know, I was
keeping the middle note, but I wasn't keeping actual notes.
And I started buying journals and then started like really
taking notes because of that conversation that me and Kobe had,
and I had about three years of you know, documented
notes of you know, my feelings, my history present, and
(21:08):
how I got to these places. And I was still
nervous to share my reality to the world. And once
again I turned to Kobe. We spent about an hour
talking about it, and he was just like, man, I
want to I'm gonna write the forward for it. It
would be my pleasure and honor to do that that's
how the book became reality. The rest is history. Tough Juice,
(21:30):
My Journey from the Street City, NBA. It's a great read,
and I'm excited for everybody to get your copy and
dig deeper into incredible, incredible life journey. So now one
more thing. Well, first of all, I've heard that you're
making a movie of your book with Mark Wahlberg. So
that's that's fantastic. Congratulations on that. Thank you. And you
(21:51):
and I have one more thing in common, which is
that we both write children's books. And you know, of
course my book is luluis a Rhinoceros. I'm working on
my second one now, but I wrote it first my
daughter right in the second with her as well. And
you just signed a deal with HarperCollins to make three children.
Are you writing them yourself? What was the impatus behind that? Yeah,
I am writing them, and I'm partnering up with someone
to do some of the writing with me, Justin Reynolds.
(22:13):
I was thinking about just the kids that I've encountered
through these different programs, the Three D Foundation, through cops
and kids just being in the community, my basketball program
NBA Pros. That's planning that came through my program that
I'm just like inspired just by their stories and their journeys.
(22:33):
Kids that come from humble beginnings, people that come from
a tremendous amount of adversity, real adversity. He's not fabricated stories.
These are real stories, and they find a way to sustain,
They find a way to making their life. They find
a way to attach themselves to the right mentors. And
how important mentorship is in your life, and what a
(22:55):
blessing it is to go through some of these adversities
at a young age because it prepares you for life.
And that's why I felt like these stories needed to
be told, because I was inspired by these these young people,
and I know that the world will be inspired by
them as well. Yeah, amen to that. I think it's
great and I'm looking forward to I'll probably see it
on your Instagram before uh for anybody else, you know,
(23:17):
because I follow Karen and I think you should do.
You've got a lot of stuff going on, and it's
all it's all good. It seems like it's all the
service of others. And I'm excited to work together h
to make more positive change. And that's exactly what we're
gonna do. Do you allow yourself to think ahead five
ten years with these organizations and where you want to
(23:38):
be or where you want them to be, or you
just started focusing on making sure today's right and next week,
like how do you how do you view that? I
try to have a combination of things. I try to
focus on today and tomorrow, the small games, and then
also try to focus on the big term stuff ten
years from now, twenty years from now. But in fact,
(23:58):
like if the world is going to be the way
that we envision it, because we're fighting for equality. We're
not fighting for like advancements or us to be better
or these laws to be more favorable. We're just fighting
for equality and real justice. And hopefully we're not fighting
ten twenty years from now. Hopefully there's a mass shift
(24:20):
and people see the wrong doings have been happening, and
you know, communities that's been undeserved and things that have
been edited out the constitution that's not been favorable for
you know, black and brown people for years, and that
hopefully they you know, shift and everybody get on the
same accord and these institutions and organizations don't even have
to exist because the only reason we're in existence and
(24:43):
only reason we're fighting is because it's undeserved communities out there,
and it's injustice is happening, so we have to continue
to fight daily. Yeah, your goal, it sounds like it's
the same as the goal that I put out there
for the various different organizations on whose boards I serve
with its Families Against Mandatory Minimums or Drug Policy Alliance
(25:05):
or Innocence Project. We want to be put out of business, right,
We just want to be We want to get these
problems fixed once and for all, create a fair and
better system for everyone, and then shut the doors and
work on something else. So okay, now here's the closing
of the show. It works like this. First of all, Karant,
thank you for taking the time from I mean, you've
(25:26):
got your family and you've got your ten different careers
there and charity, so I know it's hard, but I
really appreciate you sharing your amazing story in your spirit
as well with our with me and our audience. So
now we turn to my two favorite questions. One is
called the magic one question. It works like this. If
I was to hand you imagine one and I was
(25:47):
able to grant you one wish, you can wave that
one and change something. What would it be. I would
ask for one more wish, and that would be quality
for everybody. Broken system that's fractured. I want a system
that's together. And we have to start at the route
(26:08):
and the foundation. It has to be dismantled and rebuild,
favorable to everybody, equal for everyone, and you know, last
but not least, just making sure that you know, with
correcting generational traumas and things that happened in the past.
You know, just reconnecting with my biological father and having
(26:29):
that relationship with him going forward. That would be a
paramount for me. If I could add one more request,
it would be like taking away jun our diabetes from
my daughter. Just to be authentic and transparent with you know,
the fans and everybody that's listening. You're a Corona. All
I can say is that's beautiful and all the best
(26:50):
for me and all of us, to your daughter and
to you on your search. And now before we go
to our closing, I'd like to thank everyone for tuning
in and listening joining for the second season of Righteous
Convictions with Jason Flampan. Now the closing of our show
is called Words of Wisdom, where first of all, I
thank you Karen Karan Butler for joining us. And then
(27:12):
I'm just gonna relax. I'm gonna kick back in my chair,
close my eyes, turned the volume up on my headphones,
and I invite the audience to do the same. Just
shut everything else out for the last minute or two
as we listen to anything else you feel is left
to be said. I think one of the biggest things
for me. We talked to our players all the time
about collaboration being a new innovation. You know, no one's bigger,
(27:38):
no one's better. It's just all about coming together for
the right cause and the right initiative, and moving the
needle towards progress, about leaving the right legacy. So when
I think about those things, I think that if we
live our life understanding this that you know, right is right,
no matter who's against it, the wrong is wrong, no
(28:00):
matter who's ford, I think would be in a better place.
I truly thank you all for this time, and let's
continue to change the world. Let's continue to shake up
the world, and let's continue to stay true to ourselves
and be who you need it. You know, when you
was growing up, Sloop, thank you for listening to righteous
(28:28):
Convictions with Jason Flom. I'd like to thank our production
team Connor Hall, Jeff Claverne, and Kevin Wardis with research
by Lava Robinson. The music in this production was supplied
by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Follow us
on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava for Good. You
can also follow me on TikTok and Instagram at It's
(28:49):
Jason Blom. Righteous Convictions with Jason Flom is a production
of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Say No
Company Number one
Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam, the podcast where
I speak with people who see the wrong in the
world and are driven to make it right. Today, I'm
speaking with a man who escaped drug dealing, street violence,
and our juvenile justice system, not only for a career
in the NBA, but a lifetime devoted to improving the
situation that could have robbed him of his potential. You know,
(00:23):
one of the greatest hardest of all time, you know, biggie,
You know the only way you can make it out
selling crack rock or a wicked jump shot. When I
was incarcerated, I gotta tell you, I've seen some of
the most amazing athletes ever. Man. We lost so many gifted,
talented brothers to the system, and we're still losing so
many gifted, talented people to the system. Through his own
(00:47):
foundation and the very Institute of Justice, he strives to
curb violence as well as build bridges between law enforcement
and communities of color. Karen Butler right now on Righteous Convictions.
(01:14):
Welcome back to Righteous Convictions with Chase Plum. Today's guest
is somebody you'll recognize as soon as I tell you
his name, and he's someone who actually makes me cooler
by degrees in the eyes of my son and probably
a lot of other people, just by having him on
the show. And before I even get into why this
makes so much sense to have you here, let me
introduce Karen Butler. Karan, Welcome to Righteous Convictions. Thanks for
(01:38):
having me on, brother, it's a pleasure. Now. A lot
of you know a lot of stuff about Karan, his
incredible NBA career, college career, and his transformation into a
successful analyst and announcer for the NBA, But what you
may not know is what he had to overcome in
the criminal justice system. You are a living, breathing example
(02:00):
of why we need to reform the system and give
people like yourself a chance to become demand that you've become.
So let's rewind. You grew up in Racine, Wisconsin, right correct.
My family migrated to Wisconsin from the South. My great uncle,
uncle Eugene Thornton, had ran away from Mississippi because he
(02:25):
had slept with a white woman. They was looking for him,
and he had a dress up as a woman to
leave the state and bypassed a lot of states. But
that's how our family planted routes there in the state
of Wisconsin. But being black and the state of Wisconsin
in the early eighties and nineties was just a difficult thing.
(02:45):
It was extremely segregated. It still is in some regents.
And then people just had a segregated mindset where empowering
people that didn't look like them was not a thing.
It was always difficult growing up because everything that I've
seen from the second I jumped off the porch was
this violence and drug sales, you know, lack of opportunities,
(03:08):
you know, crabs and the barrel mentality. Also saw these
are some of the good things that I saw in
the community. I saw people, you know, coming together even
though it was a battle and the struggle to you know,
make it on a day to day basis. I saw,
you know, a lot of camaraderie and unity, you know.
So I knew it was love, but I also knew
that hate existed, and I also knew that everybody was
in survival mode. And you had numerous interactions with the
(03:32):
law right you were. I've read that you arrested over
a dozen times. Is that accurate? Yeah, lottering, guilt by association,
picked up for a day, slapped in detention, I mean,
you name it, and I'm a fast forward just for
a second. Even after I made millions of dollars, I
got pulled over, unrassed on a bicycle. I had to
(03:53):
put my hands up, asked me where my I D was?
Ad asked me did I have like a serial number
and all this this paperwork for riding a bicycle. Yeah,
it's straight up harassment. So and recine pre NBA startum
or really before you got into basketball at all, you
were harassed and building a rap sheet of inconsequential bullshit.
(04:15):
You know, teenage activity that goes unnoticed or unbothered in
other neighborhoods. You weren't exactly getting great representation either. I
was never represented by a lawyer that had I feel
like my best interests the public pretender. They always came
with bargains and plea deals that never benefited me short
(04:37):
term or long term. Every run in that I had,
even if I was guilty and not guilty of the crime,
but I was being convicted of as long as it
said it was no jail time attached probation. I don't
care how much short long I would accept it, because
I knew that the best thing for me was just
to not go to jail and just you know, stay free. You. Unfortunately,
(05:01):
it's a familiar story. And while there are some very
strong and well meaning public defenders, no doubt about it,
there are also those, and this is too common, who
are doing a little more than just processing people through
the system, you know, And with about eleven million people
being churned through our jails and prisons every year, it's
(05:22):
not like the chances of real justice taking place. I've
really improved from poor black and brown kids since you
went through it, and I'm glad you're here to shed
some light on that, because it affects all kids in
neighborhoods like the one you came from all over this country,
neighborhoods that are flushed with drugs, violence, and very very
little opportunities. So now, eventually, unfortunately, that environment got its
(05:44):
hooks into you, and you were involved in some drug
dealing which resulted in the rest of actual consequence. This time,
because I was on papers at the time, they told
me that I was already in violation of my parole
and I was facing two to four years in prison,
and it would have been a whole lot more had
you not been fifteen years old, right, But Okay, so
you end up locked up for how long on this charge?
(06:07):
In total, I was locked down fourteen months, And from
what I've read, it was during that time that you
really discovered basketball. I mean, but I mean, were you
a strong player, were you known around the way before
all of that, or was this like a totally new
thing to you. It's a right to imagine you picked
it up that late and got to where you got to.
You know what, My uncle Carlos went to some of
(06:28):
the most prestigious schools in the state of Wisconsin because
he was just a gifted mind and he also was
a talented basketball player. He was my idol and someone
I looked up to. Now, he had some costly decisions
by hanging around some people that probably wasn't the best
people in the world to hang around with. He was arrested.
He end up facing five years in the penitentiary. He
(06:51):
was banned from high school sports, and he was just
on the verge of becoming one of the most recruited
players in the state. And I saw how his life
was altered. So it wasn't until the correctional facility where
the light bulb went off where I had to think
about things that I can do the pastime, and basketball
(07:11):
was going to be one of those things to get
through that stretch, to get through my bid. You know,
it just all of a sudden made sense to you
that this was gonna be your destiny. And but you
hadn't up to this point. I mean, you weren't like
the dominant kid in the neighborhood playing ball or anything
like that. It just it's crazy, It sounds it sounds
like a movie. Honestly. The thing about me, and I
don't want to boast a brag about this, but for
(07:33):
the most part, whatever I ever put my mind in
my my like physical gifts towards, I was able to accomplish.
You know, since I was a kid, like if I
wanted to win a push up challenge, you know, fast
forward to you know, start hustling in the streets. I
wanted to be the best drug dealer at my age.
And I know that's one hell of a dumbass go
(07:54):
to pursue, but that's what it was at the time.
I wanted to be the best at what I was doing,
and I became that. And thank God for you know,
altering my life and my career path to put me
in that position where I was able to focus on
what the next chapter of my life was going to
be like, where you know, I pivot to something that
(08:16):
brought Jordan, my family, that brought joy to my life,
and it was basketball. I had a lot of hiccups
when I got out. I had a lot of distractions,
and people wanted me to convert back to my old self.
My uncle's was both locked up incarcerated. The mail role
models and figures that always turned to for God ince
and I didn't have them. Thank God for the strong
(08:39):
women that I had in my life, my mother, my grandmother.
They helped guide me and keep me on the straight
narrow once I, you know, got through the prep school
part of it, and I went to University of Connecticut
with the Hall of Fame coach Jim Calhoun, who taught
me about just the importance of family from a different aspect.
(09:01):
You want to make sure that everybody is okay, and
you want to take care of them. And I realized
that I had a gift that would possibly grant me
millions of dollars if I stayed committed to it. I mean,
it's quite a remarkable turnaround when you took it just
a few years from the time you're walking out of
that prison, trading in a number of back for your name,
and then two thousand two Big East Conference Men's Basketball
(09:22):
Player of the Year. I mean that is really that's
something like fairytale kind of stuff. It's amazing, but it's real.
And I signed my fifty million dollar deal with the
Washington Wizards. It was on October thirty one. Ten years
prior October thirty one, I was being sent to the
correctional facility. Ten years later, I'm signing one of the
biggest deals in my career and generational wealth created for
(09:46):
my family. I always thought about this going back and
making sure that with this platform, I would make sure
(10:08):
that I'm visible as possible, connected as possible, informed as possible,
and being able to, you know, reach as many people
as possible, uh specifically and strategically in my community and
then communities like mine. And that was the plan. I
wanted to create relationships with cops and kids and bring
(10:30):
awareness to some of the problems that I used to
go through. And I was just like, damn, people don't
recognize this. And this is before you know, social media
and before it was a trend to do things like this.
I just wanted to really lay down that groundwork and
just have those uncomfortable conversations and try to build those bridges.
You know, what could have faulted you for getting into
(10:50):
the n b A, living it up, just enjoying the
fruits of your labor, your fame, your newfound fortune. But
it was only two thousand and five, right, a handful
of years removed from the prison system, that you started
organizing community outreach programs, encouraging communication and building strong relationships
(11:11):
between young people in law enforcement. What inspired you to start, Well,
it's them from like the worst tragedy one of my
best friends, Robert Nellum, he was gunned down and killed
shortly after me signing that extension, and I had to
go back and literally look at my best friend in
(11:31):
the casket bury him. Uh. My wife had to do
all the arrangements and after we put him in in
the ground, and I thought about what the community was
feeling at the time he was murdered. He was gunned
down in a in a bathroom in the bar, and
I thought about like the backlash that was gonna come
(11:53):
from it, you know, with you know, rival gangs and everything,
and just just the energy of someone dying, and I
reached out to the police chief. We had a block party,
which you know, gatherings are always prohibited in a time
like this because that's a place where everybody can just
come together and do the most outlandish things if you
(12:16):
had any malice in your heart. But I built basketball
courts outside, and you know, I spoke, made it a
community function. I told them, if I'm able to be
here with the loss of my friend, the loss of
my love one, everyone else should be able to be here,
if his family and his mother and his sister, if
(12:37):
his loved ones are able to be here and not
you know, act in a violent way, you know that
want to build community and see good things going forward
stead of you know, more hate things like that. You
should all unify and come together and rally around something.
Let us a legacy and memory be a good thing.
And we had many moments like that in our community
(12:58):
where we had some of the highest gun rates, where
people was being shot down on the streets and racy
in Wisconsin, and we would have, you know, just get
togethers with the cops, with the community, and this provide
like those bridges and this togetherness and unity more so
than division. And you know I was in the middle
(13:20):
and help orchestrate a lot of those things. So from
this awful tragedy, you made something positive happen. You've got
this Cops and Kids program going, and you eventually created
the Three D Foundation, which honors students who have exemplify
the three DS of success. What are the three ds?
Three DS are really the foundation of everything. I stand for, determination, dedication,
(13:46):
and discipline. I think that I would not be anywhere
in life if I didn't have those qualities. And that's
how we had the mentality of going into it when
I started the foundation, where we just wanted to give
kids opportunity and used to do different things, you know,
whether it was experiences at basketball games, whether it's experiences
through reading and things like that. We try to create
(14:08):
those experiences. You know, we're a strong believer in seeing
this believing and that's what the Three D Foundation is
all about, giving kids a platform and opportunity to do
things outside the wildest dreams. You could check it out
on my website and that's Koran Butler dot com. Of course,
we'll have that length in the bio where you can
also check out Butler Holy Basketball program, which basically does
(14:30):
for other at risk youth what you did for yourself,
using basketball to focus the energies of kids in a
positive direction, giving them an opportunity and a path forward
that leads them away from the streets and towards confidence,
being able to commit to goals and integrity. You know,
when I interviewed Meek Mill, I asked him how many
other people as talented as he is we're stuck behind bars?
(14:53):
In his opinion, obviously it's impossible to know, and he
said more than I can count, And I don't think
he was being humble. Now, I got to ask you
the same question. How many NBA superstars have we lost
to the War on drugs too? Over incarceration, mass incarceration,
(15:14):
police brutality, etcetera. I mean, if you could try to
quantify that as best you can, I'd be interested in
your opinion. Thousands, thousands. Yeah, When you when you think
about the population of prisons over two point three two
point four million people and concentrated large percentage black and
(15:35):
brown community, When you think about the narrative that was
created all the way ranging back from the eighties and nineties,
you know, the only way that you can get out
these communities through you know, a source of entertainment. You know,
one of the greatest hardest of all time, you know, biggie,
you know, the only way you can make it out
selling crack rock or a wicked jump shop. And you know,
(15:58):
a majority of the brothers in the in the comunities,
you know, knew how to play basketball. You know, every
region had someplace where you could play basketball that was free.
You know, you can be doing some of the wickedest
things on these three corners, and you know, migrate to
a park or to a community center and hone on
your skills. And when I was incarcerated, I gotta tell you,
(16:19):
I've seen some of the the most amazing athletes ever
that can do things and veiled cruel ten isshoes that
they always gave you like a size too small, you know,
and these brothers was I'm talking about jumping six ft
in the air, you know, wind millers and taking it
through the legs. Before that was even the thing. Man,
(16:40):
we lost so many gifted talented brothers, you know, you know,
to the system, and we're still losing so many gifted
talented people to the system. In two thousand nineteen, you
(17:10):
joined the board of one of the most prestigious and
impactful organizations in the world of criminal justice reform. And
I speak, you know, with authority on this because I've
been doing this work since the early nineties and the
reputation of ERA is impeccable for people who aren't familiar
with VERA. Their main objectives are ending the criminalization of
(17:33):
people of color, immigrants, and people experiencing poverty. Right, it's
unbelievable that one of the two main reasons why people
get arrested in America is just for being homeless. The
other one, by the way, is driving on a suspended license.
So drastically reducing the use of jail's, prisons and detention
centers centered dignity and minimize the harms of criminal, legal
and immigration system involvement. I'm so glad that immigration is
(17:53):
part of that platform. And then the final tented of
the whole thing is supporting safe and thriving communities. I mean,
what work are you doing with them? Specifically? What I'm
involved with right now as we speak is stop solitary
confinement and the state of Connecticut solitary confinement is something
that really hurts people. I think that rehabilitation should be
(18:14):
the focal point for everybody. Barbara Fair had reached out
to me in New Haven. She brought it to the
House and I flew up down to the capital and
spoke on the Capitol law. I talked about my solitary
confinement stint and what I went through and what it
did to me, the trauma that I still have from
that experience, and also loved ones that have went through
(18:35):
that trauma and what they go through and some of
the people that can't come out of that dark space.
And we talked about all those things on the on
the law. The bill was passed Speed ten fifty nine.
Bill stopped solitary confinement in the state of Connecticut. Governor
Lamott overturned it. So now it's back up to get
past again, and it's something that we'll be fighting, you know,
(18:57):
hopefully we get it passed. But that's where I'm at
right now. Yeah, amen to that. And you know, as
we speak in New York City, it looks like we're
about to lose those gains that we made on solitary
confinement and getting rid of it. And it's a man,
it's one step forward, one step back. But you know,
in all the years I've been doing this work, there's
more momentum and more good people from all walks of
(19:19):
life that are on board with making these changes. And
it's gonna happen. It's just a question of when. And
it's a shame that people are still trying to undo
the good things that people like you and I and
others have done. But you know what, like you said,
all we can do is keep fighting because we're right.
It doesn't seem complicated. I don't know why it has
to be like this. I don't know why there's a
(19:41):
default to cruelty in our correction system. But you know,
other places in the Western world don't do it like
we do. And I think, you know, eventually we'll start
to treat our incarcerated population as human beings. And so
I guess now, having covered all of that ground, we've
got to talk about your autobiography, Tough Jues. I really
(20:01):
got to the point where I wanted to write this
book where I was spending time with Kobe in Los
Angeles my season that I played with the Lakers, and
he always writes down like all his you know, sometimes
his feelings, his emotions, things like that in real time
he just keep a journal of it. So I remember,
you know, probably four years after that experience, it was
(20:25):
probably two thousand eight or so, he tapped into me
after a game. He's like, hey, man, man keeping notes
and all that stuff. Man, you gotta you gott a
wicked story. Man, you got a hell of a journey.
You know, you all start now. You your philanthropist, you
you know, you're invest in entrepreneur, You've got businesses and
all this different stuff. And I was like, yeah, man,
it's pretty cool. And you know, I had to tell
(20:47):
a shameless lie. But I wasn't you know, I was
keeping the middle note, but I wasn't keeping actual notes.
And I started buying journals and then started like really
taking notes because of that conversation that me and Kobe had,
and I had about three years of you know, documented
notes of you know, my feelings, my history present, and
(21:08):
how I got to these places. And I was still
nervous to share my reality to the world. And once
again I turned to Kobe. We spent about an hour
talking about it, and he was just like, man, I
want to I'm gonna write the forward for it. It
would be my pleasure and honor to do that that's
how the book became reality. The rest is history. Tough Juice,
(21:30):
My Journey from the Street City, NBA. It's a great read,
and I'm excited for everybody to get your copy and
dig deeper into incredible, incredible life journey. So now one
more thing. Well, first of all, I've heard that you're
making a movie of your book with Mark Wahlberg. So
that's that's fantastic. Congratulations on that. Thank you. And you
(21:51):
and I have one more thing in common, which is
that we both write children's books. And you know, of
course my book is luluis a Rhinoceros. I'm working on
my second one now, but I wrote it first my
daughter right in the second with her as well. And
you just signed a deal with HarperCollins to make three children.
Are you writing them yourself? What was the impatus behind that? Yeah,
I am writing them, and I'm partnering up with someone
to do some of the writing with me, Justin Reynolds.
(22:13):
I was thinking about just the kids that I've encountered
through these different programs, the Three D Foundation, through cops
and kids just being in the community, my basketball program
NBA Pros. That's planning that came through my program that
I'm just like inspired just by their stories and their journeys.
(22:33):
Kids that come from humble beginnings, people that come from
a tremendous amount of adversity, real adversity. He's not fabricated stories.
These are real stories, and they find a way to sustain,
They find a way to making their life. They find
a way to attach themselves to the right mentors. And
how important mentorship is in your life, and what a
(22:55):
blessing it is to go through some of these adversities
at a young age because it prepares you for life.
And that's why I felt like these stories needed to
be told, because I was inspired by these these young people,
and I know that the world will be inspired by
them as well. Yeah, amen to that. I think it's
great and I'm looking forward to I'll probably see it
on your Instagram before uh for anybody else, you know,
(23:17):
because I follow Karen and I think you should do.
You've got a lot of stuff going on, and it's
all it's all good. It seems like it's all the
service of others. And I'm excited to work together h
to make more positive change. And that's exactly what we're
gonna do. Do you allow yourself to think ahead five
ten years with these organizations and where you want to
(23:38):
be or where you want them to be, or you
just started focusing on making sure today's right and next week,
like how do you how do you view that? I
try to have a combination of things. I try to
focus on today and tomorrow, the small games, and then
also try to focus on the big term stuff ten
years from now, twenty years from now. But in fact,
(23:58):
like if the world is going to be the way
that we envision it, because we're fighting for equality. We're
not fighting for like advancements or us to be better
or these laws to be more favorable. We're just fighting
for equality and real justice. And hopefully we're not fighting
ten twenty years from now. Hopefully there's a mass shift
(24:20):
and people see the wrong doings have been happening, and
you know, communities that's been undeserved and things that have
been edited out the constitution that's not been favorable for
you know, black and brown people for years, and that
hopefully they you know, shift and everybody get on the
same accord and these institutions and organizations don't even have
to exist because the only reason we're in existence and
(24:43):
only reason we're fighting is because it's undeserved communities out there,
and it's injustice is happening, so we have to continue
to fight daily. Yeah, your goal, it sounds like it's
the same as the goal that I put out there
for the various different organizations on whose boards I serve
with its Families Against Mandatory Minimums or Drug Policy Alliance
(25:05):
or Innocence Project. We want to be put out of business, right,
We just want to be We want to get these
problems fixed once and for all, create a fair and
better system for everyone, and then shut the doors and
work on something else. So okay, now here's the closing
of the show. It works like this. First of all, Karant,
thank you for taking the time from I mean, you've
(25:26):
got your family and you've got your ten different careers
there and charity, so I know it's hard, but I
really appreciate you sharing your amazing story in your spirit
as well with our with me and our audience. So
now we turn to my two favorite questions. One is
called the magic one question. It works like this. If
I was to hand you imagine one and I was
(25:47):
able to grant you one wish, you can wave that
one and change something. What would it be. I would
ask for one more wish, and that would be quality
for everybody. Broken system that's fractured. I want a system
that's together. And we have to start at the route
(26:08):
and the foundation. It has to be dismantled and rebuild,
favorable to everybody, equal for everyone, and you know, last
but not least, just making sure that you know, with
correcting generational traumas and things that happened in the past.
You know, just reconnecting with my biological father and having
(26:29):
that relationship with him going forward. That would be a
paramount for me. If I could add one more request,
it would be like taking away jun our diabetes from
my daughter. Just to be authentic and transparent with you know,
the fans and everybody that's listening. You're a Corona. All
I can say is that's beautiful and all the best
(26:50):
for me and all of us, to your daughter and
to you on your search. And now before we go
to our closing, I'd like to thank everyone for tuning
in and listening joining for the second season of Righteous
Convictions with Jason Flampan. Now the closing of our show
is called Words of Wisdom, where first of all, I
thank you Karen Karan Butler for joining us. And then
(27:12):
I'm just gonna relax. I'm gonna kick back in my chair,
close my eyes, turned the volume up on my headphones,
and I invite the audience to do the same. Just
shut everything else out for the last minute or two
as we listen to anything else you feel is left
to be said. I think one of the biggest things
for me. We talked to our players all the time
about collaboration being a new innovation. You know, no one's bigger,
(27:38):
no one's better. It's just all about coming together for
the right cause and the right initiative, and moving the
needle towards progress, about leaving the right legacy. So when
I think about those things, I think that if we
live our life understanding this that you know, right is right,
no matter who's against it, the wrong is wrong, no
(28:00):
matter who's ford, I think would be in a better place.
I truly thank you all for this time, and let's
continue to change the world. Let's continue to shake up
the world, and let's continue to stay true to ourselves
and be who you need it. You know, when you
was growing up, Sloop, thank you for listening to righteous
(28:28):
Convictions with Jason Flom. I'd like to thank our production
team Connor Hall, Jeff Claverne, and Kevin Wardis with research
by Lava Robinson. The music in this production was supplied
by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Follow us
on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava for Good. You
can also follow me on TikTok and Instagram at It's
(28:49):
Jason Blom. Righteous Convictions with Jason Flom is a production
of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Say No
Company Number one
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