Blues Rock Blues: Jack White vs. The Black Keys

In the late '90s, The White Stripes came on the scene as a true anomaly: A post-modern blues-rock duo from the Midwest. A few years later, however, another blues-rock duo from the Midwest, the Black Keys, emerged and eventually became one of the most popular rock bands in America. After the White Stripes folded in the early 2010s, Jack White started speaking out about these upstarts, claiming in interviews (and leaked emails from his ex-wife) that he was being ripped off. But it is possible that there really is room for all these dudes to play good time rock 'n' roll?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Reveals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and
feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

(00:20):
I'm Jordan, and today we're gonna talk about the White
Stripes versus the Black Keys. And this rivalry is really
interesting to me because on the surface, it seems really simple.
It seems like Jack White doesn't like the Black Keys.
He doesn't think Nashville is big enough for two retro
rock guitar and drum duos who have colors in their names,
you know, which is weird because I always thought Jet

(00:42):
sounded more like, you know, at least vocally, like they
were ripping off the White Stripes. And also, you would
think that Jack White and Dana Arbuck would have a
lot to say to each other, right they throw on
like a Sonics record and crack open a beer. But
that's not the case. Yeah, you know, I wrote about
this revelry in my book Your Favorite Band Is Killing Me,
and it actually ended up being one of the more
personal chapters because to me, this is like a really

(01:05):
good allegory for something that like I struggle with and
I think a lot of other dudes struggle with which
is like a forming adult male relationships, Like it can
be really hard to do. And I feel like the
inability of Jack White and Dan our Back to just
get along because it's really about those two guys. Patrick Carney,
of course, is also in The Black Keys, and he's
been involved in this somewhat, But I feel like it's

(01:26):
really between like Jack and Dan and you look at
them on paper and you're like, Okay, you live in
the same town, you're in the same profession. Their kids
went to the same school, or at least they did
for a time, and we're gonna talk about that in
this episode as well. You know, they both like blues rock.
I mean, there's like a lot of things these guys
have in common, and yet because of some mix of

(01:49):
like Macheesmo and like competition, they can't get Yeah exactly,
I guess I just want Jack White and Dan Auerbach
to be bros, to show the rest of us bro
was how to be bros. And you know, there's a
funny little moment in the in the documentary it might
get loud, when Jack's on his way to have a
guitar throw down with Jimmy Page and the Edge, and

(02:10):
the director asks Jack, you know, how do you think
this is all going to go down? Jack kind of
size and says, I don't know, We'll probably have a
fist fight. He's he's I'm sure he's kidding on some level,
but on another level, I don't know that he is.
Like I feel like he's almost speaking for like all
dudes when confronted with having to meet new dudes for
the first time, like, oh, maybe maybe we will have

(02:32):
a fight, like you know, Stephen, Like, I'm surprised we
didn't get into a fight when we first met, which
you know, I mean, just so we're clear, I'm the
Jack White in the scenario, I'm the old timey pale nerd,
and you're definitely Jimmy Page. Well I appreciate that analogy
because I like Jimmy Page. I also worship Staton. So
you know, I feel like we have any comment, But
that's for another episode. Why don't we get into the

(02:54):
background of the White Stripes and Black Keys feud. Let's
get into this mess. So the first real sign of
trouble is this really interesting quote that Jack gives in
interview with Rolling Stone. Uh, he says, I'm a lot
more to do with jay Z than the Black Keys, which, huh, Like,

(03:18):
the only thing I can think of that maybe he's
referring to is that that sort of knocked that great
James Bond theme that he did with Alicia Keys the
year before jay Z did Empire state of mind. Like
that's the only comparison I can think of. Like, am
I missing something here? Yeah? I don't know. I mean
I think he was just basically trying to distance himself
in the Black Keys. Yeah, I I never really understood that.
This was also the same year that that Brothers the

(03:40):
Black Key's sixth album really breaks through, and that's also
the year that the Black He's settled in Nashville, and
the White Stripes at this time, they're kind of on
the ropes. They're gonna announce their split formally the next year,
but they're already kind of a spent force at that stage.
So I guess Jackson in this other band kind of
doing his own thing and being really successful at it

(04:01):
when his own group is really on the way out.
I can see why he'd sort of begrudge them their success.
But uh so, Yeah, it's like to say that Jack
White was not part of the Black Keys Nashville Welcome Committee. No,
not at all, and Dan even says that he gives
an interview a couple of years later when the the
journalists asked him if he knows Jack White, which is
you know, like you said, same town, same profession, same

(04:24):
collection of really obscure old guitars, like you think they
would allow to say to each other, and dannar back
gives us really diplomatic answer. He says, no, I I
don't know Jack, which is kind of like when Mariah
Carey has asked if she knows j Lo and she says, oh, no,
I don't know her end of kind of statement. There's
there's some frostiness there, and the journalist keeps on pushing it, says, well,

(04:44):
you know you're I know you're tight with the racon
Tours drummer Jack's other band, Like why don't you arrange
an introduction? Dan's kind of like, well, you know, do
you hang out with every writer in Nashville. No, Like,
just because we're in the same job doesn't mean we
have to hang out, which it is true, I guess,
but yeah, but you definitely feel like they would have
run into each other at like you know, the antique

(05:05):
guitar store or something, or looking at like ancient phonographs,
you know, like I feel like their past would have crossed. Yeah,
you know, it's fascinating me because I think when you
look at these two bands, obviously there's the obvious comparison
that you can make about being two person blues rock bands. Uh,
they definitely have a similar aesthetic there. I think it's
fair to say that, like when we look at music history,

(05:27):
that the White Stripes have a stature that is greater
than the Black Keys. Uh. You know, Jack White is
a musician who has rubbed shoulders with like the biggest
rock legends that there are. You know, he's friends with
Bob Dylan, he knows Mick Jagger, you know, he did
that movie with Jimmy Page. And I don't think the
Black Keys have that kind of stature. And yet there
was a time, you know, in the early two thousand

(05:47):
tens where they were one of the most successful rock
bands on the planet. And I think in a way
they had more pop success then the White Stripes, did,
you know. I think that had something to do with
the fact that, like the Black He's were willing to
conform to the formula of pop radio more than than
Jack White ever would have been. You know, they worked
with Danger Mouse on Brothers, and then he basically became

(06:10):
a member of the band on their next record, al Camino,
and both of those albums went platinum, which was a
pretty incredible thing for a rock band to do at
that time. I mean, I think the Black Keys were
among the only rock bands selling at that kind of level.
And it does seem like Jack White in some way
might have felt like the Black Keys were benefiting from
his misfortune, because, as you mentioned the White Stripes, you know,

(06:34):
in two thousand and ten, they were not in a
good place. I think they played their last show ever
what ended up being their last show in two thousand nine,
and then they ended up announcing their breakup in early
two thousand eleven. And I think you can explain the
success of the Black Keys for the reasons I already stated,
like working with Danger Mouse and you know, just having
a better pop sense. But it's maybe that totally wrong

(06:56):
that like their ascendants had something to do with the
White Stripes and up being around, Like there's definitely a
coincidence there where the White Stripes disappeared and the Black
Keys become this huge band, And whether that's sure or not,
that's like how Jack Whites saw it at the time.
And I'm genuinely trying to remember. At the time in
when they announced their breakup, I felt as though they

(07:19):
split up at the top of their game. I didn't
think of it as like a band that was kind
of past. It's saying, you know what, they were going
to hang it up. Did you at the time get
the feeling that they were kind of on their way out?
Like they seemed so huge to me still, Like I
didn't think of it as being the case of like,
you know, they were kind of sun setting on them. No.
I think the White Stripes again, they had, I think,
really established themselves as like one of the marquee bands

(07:40):
of their generation, especially when you look at those early records, um,
you know, the self type of record and to steal
and then of course White Blood Cells was their big
breakout and an elephant like really put them through the roof.
And that's the record that has seven Nation Army on it,
which I mean, I think many people consider that to
be like the biggest anthem of the last twenty years.

(08:01):
I mean it's certainly the song that you hear in
stadiums all the time. I mean it organically became this
like big sports song that like people would sing the
guitar riff, which is a pretty incredible song, and there's
no there's there's no Black Keys song that has that
kind of stature. I think this is an instance of
like the White Stripes sort of taking themselves out because

(08:22):
Meg White didn't want to tour anymore, and maybe there
was just a hunger out there for a two person
blues rock band, and people were like, well, if the
White Stripes aren't here, let's go with this other band
that has a color in their name, you know, and
they have some pretty good songs too, And this is
the kind of music that you want to put in
beer commercials and hot wings commercials and you know whatever.

(08:42):
Like I mean, that's what the Black Keys became, and
that at that time that not only were their songs
huge on the charts, but like it seemed like every
sort of masculine corporate brand put a Black Keys song
or Black Keys rip off in their commercial. You know,
it just made their music inescapable. For a few years. Oh,
I mean I I put the Black Keys, And when
I think of as like the Pink echelon, like the

(09:04):
artist Pink, where I feel like her songs like Monday
Night Football and just every they just unavoidable on like
and their pictures are on like sides of busses and
billboards and stuff like that. Yeah, they definitely they had
no problem licensing their stuff out, which I was always
interesting in later years they kind of like sidestep the
whole question of you know, sellout by basically saying, look,
we we can't afford to be this indie band, like

(09:27):
we we want to make we don't have a fallback,
we don't have a trust fund. We we want to
make music for everybody. So I thought it was really
interesting how they, I mean, we'll touch more on this later,
how Jack was so about you know, musical authenticity and
not selling out and they never really, at least to
my knowledge, got got hit with those accusations. But getting
ahead of herself. Yeah, I mean I think, um, they

(09:48):
definitely suffered that stigma from Jack White himself. You know,
Jack White, I think definitely looked at them as like
a sellout band because again, as you said, like the
Black Keys did a lot of things that the White
Stripes never would have done and didn't do in their career,
But the Black Pies also show that when you do
those things, you can actually benefit greatly from that. It's

(10:10):
also worth noting too that, like, as you said, like
the black He's have made that argument about how like
we have to be in all these ads because you know,
we're not trust fund kids. You know, we come from
this like middle class Midwestern background, so you know we
don't have the same hang ups maybe about working with
corporations that like other you know, maybe better pedigree bands do.

(10:30):
I mean, Jack White also comes from the Midwest, and
he's also from I think like a lower middle class background.
I think he had a pretty big family I want
to like nine kids or something. Yeah, right, So it's
not like he was a trust fund kid either. That
just kind of adds another layer to um this feud
here because they really again are coming from very similar places,

(10:50):
but they just had different ways about going in their career.
It does seem like as this feud progresses that Jack
White is the instigator over and over again. I Mean
it seem like there's a pattern where like Jack White
will act out and the Black Keys will react to it,
but they're mainly trying to tamp it down, and then
it dies down for a bit and then Jack White
does something else that makes it worse. There was apparently

(11:14):
an incident in when Danna Roback goes by the Third
Man's studios to try to, I guess see Jack White,
and Jack uh bars him from a studio. Was he
like standing in the door or something like he's like
physically was like, that's the story. I heard that he
was like actually himself, he was basically I don't know

(11:35):
if I didn't hear that. Oh, I really hope he's
like to be wrong, like a scarecrow with like a
thing of straw hanging out of his mouth. Exactly. I
could be wrong. Don't quote me on that. I probably
shouldn't say on a podcast if I don't know for sure,
But like, let's just say that he did do that
because it's more fun. But I'm not confirming that that's
the fact, But it's fun to pretend that Jack White, yes,

(11:55):
was trusted as a scarecrow in the door trying to
keep them out of the study studio, and like, you
know that that's a fairly egregious thing. And the black
Keys are doing interview with Rolling Stone later that year
in twelve, and they sort of tangentially mentioned they don't
get intuity refused. Danna are Back refuses to really elaborate
on it, but it comes out of the course of
the interview that that Jack White barred him from the studio,

(12:16):
and Rolling Stone calls Jack White and basically tries to
fact check this, and Jack gives him his incredible statement,
anything you've ever heard anyone say about me is one accurate.
That was his comment when asked to deny that he
blocked Danna are Back from the studio. So clearly he's
got an ax to grind here. And yes, definitely, yeah,

(12:38):
And I feel like the big thing that happened with
these bands, well, first of all, I mean they squared
off at the Grammys two. I guess we should mention that.
And again, this was like when Jack White, you know,
he was trying to establish his solo career and he
put his first solo record, Blunderbust, that came out in twelve.
I think that's his best solo record still. Um, I

(13:00):
think that's a really good record. And it was actually
nominated for Album of the Year that year. It didn't
win of course, and in the category were the Black
Keys and Jack White were both nominated. The Black Keys
one for their song Lonely Boy that was in the
Best Rock Song category, and then they also win in
the Best Rock Album category too against Jack White. Camino

(13:23):
won that one for Best Rock Album. I gotta say, though,
Lonely Boy kind of was the best rock song of
whatever year it was, right, What do you think? Yeah,
I mean yeah, I mean the Black Keys were definitely
in their prime as far as like a commercial rock band.
I know, there's like a lot of people who actually
don't like those records, like Black Keys fans who prefer

(13:46):
like the early garage rock stuff like Thick Freakness and
Rubber Factory, like those records, and they look at the
pop records as being you know, sort of like a
watered down version of what the Black Keys were doing. Um,
Whereas I cook to look at it as like they
made a decision to be a commercial rock band at
that time, and I think they did a pretty good job.

(14:06):
And as you said, like Lonely Boy in terms of
like like a like a rock radio type song, like
it didn't get much better than that at that time.
I mean, if you were listening to rock radio, like
in Lonely Boy was as good as a guy. I mean,
there were some really bad songs. That was That was
the summer of I believe right, which I mean actually

(14:29):
got t a you know, was even that I would
take over like a lot of what's on rock radio now,
that's like somebody that used to know that song. Yeah, yeah,
he had that one song and then he left like
there's no more Gautier after that. He had his one
song and he's like, I can't believe you let me
have one hit. This is amazing. I'm I'm gonna bounce.

(14:50):
But I feel like the feud between the Black Keys
and the White Stripes really took off during the divorce
hearings between Jack White and Karen Nelson, who is soon
to be ex wife, because there were a bunch of
emails that Jack White wrote to Karen Nelson that were
leaked during this case, and I don't remember if Jack

(15:13):
White talked about anything other than the Black Keys in
these emails, Like the Black Key stuff is the only
things I remember. I feel like like those were the
things that were blown up in the press. Do you
remember reading about that? Oh yeah, I mean who would
have thought Jack White would have wound up on TMZ.
Like I just remember thinking that was the weirdest thing,
and then I actually read and but you're right, like
these emails, I guess they were like his soon to

(15:34):
be ex wife submitted them to the court, But I
don't really understand what they sought to prove. I think
they were just trying to make Jack White look like
unhinged and bad, but not in like a criminal sense,
just in like a really petty way. So I don't know.
I never really understood like why they were submitted, but
but they were out there, they made it to TMZ
and they were pretty hilarious. Yeah, well, he says that.

(15:55):
In the emails, Jack White is talking about how he
feels like the Black Keys ripped him off. He gets
really mad about how the children that he has with
Karen Nelson are going to be sent to the same
private Nashville school that Dan Auerbach children go to, And
there's a quote in there where he says, my concern
with our box is because I don't want the kids

(16:16):
involved in any of that crap. And I don't know
what he means by that crap, Like I guess just
the feud. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like you know his kids
are going to be soiled by inferior blues rock combos.
I don't know what the I don't know what that
crap prefers to, but he says, you aren't thinking ahead,
that's a possible twelve fucking years I'm going to be

(16:38):
sitting in kids chairs next to that asshole with other
people trying to lump us together. He gets another free
reign to follow me around and copy me and push
himself into my world. So Jack White is basically having
these like rage fantasies about being at like parent teacher
conferences and having right like these two huge men and

(17:02):
like tiny chairs and Dana are black. The whole time
is it's gonna be plagiarizing like the latest Jack White
like masterstroke for like the next twelve fucking years, as
he says. And of course again like these are not
public statements that he's making. These are emails that he's
writing to his again soon to be ex wife that

(17:23):
are leaked. And again like this is another instance where
I mean, I guess Jack White wasn't trying to be
the instigator here, but he you know, ended up sort
of inadvertently being the instigator. But then like the Black Keys,
they stepped in and they're actually like pretty gracious in
their response, right, Oh, they were super cool about it. Yeah,
they were saying, like, you know what that that's what
he said, was like pretty fucked up. But Petrick Carney
said it was a private conversation. He's talking to Rolling Stone.

(17:47):
So we've all said, like, you know, terrible things about
other people and in private, like how awful would that
be if everything that we ever said to somebody about
somebody we don't like just all got aired in one
big like you know, airing of the grievances of terrible
And he's right, you know, he said, ultimately it's no
one's business. He sounds like an asshole, but I actually
feel embarrassed for him. And yeah, the band said, no,

(18:08):
we don't hold any grudges. Like it's sucked up that
that happened to him. All righty, and we'll be right
back with more rivals. So this is all going down,
I guess, you know. It's like late summer, and again
these emails are leaked, and depending on your point of view,

(18:30):
either Jack White is humiliated or the Black Keys are humiliated,
you know. But it's definitely fostering some real resentment between
these these guys. And then Jack White really goes into
instigator mode. I guess it's in May in another Rolling
Stone interview. I mean, this is the one like where
he's really unloading on them, and you know, I wonder

(18:52):
if you would have done this, But what he says
in this if those emails hadn't leaked, you know what
I mean, Like, I wont of us would have been
kept on the rabs. But now he's like, well it's
out there. I'm as well really just onload and really
articulate my point. I don't know, it's interesting to think about. Yeah, yeah,
I know, yeah, he might have just said, like, what
the hell? All right, Okay, look, I don't have to
pretend to be nice anymore. I'm gonna really say what
I think about these guys. You know, he compares them

(19:14):
to the kids at school who dressed like everybody else
because they don't know what else to do. You know,
they just kind of copy whatever the trends are. And
Jack goes on says, you know, I hear TV commercials
with music ripping off sounds of mine to the point
where I really think it's me half the time it's
the Black Keys. It was probably all the time it
was the Black Keys. At again, if you were selling beer,

(19:37):
hot wings, or like tires or you know, anything kind
of like like a dude related product, there was like
some black Keys sounding like guitar riff playing in the background.
Jack to his credit, he kind of like he admits
that he, you know, I'm a white guy playing the blues,
like I can't really claim any ownership over that. But
he did make the point that there's you know, an

(19:58):
act can open up a certain kind of style, all
another acts follow in the wake, and he uses the
analogy of Amy Winehouse kind of setting the trend for
Adele and Duffy and these kind of retro white girl
beehive their English soul singers. And he made the point
that you know, had Amy Winehouse lived, maybe Adele wouldn't
be as huge as issue was, which is a fascinating point,

(20:18):
I don't know, an interesting alternate music history point. Yeah,
you know, I don't think he's totally wrong there, Like
I said before, you know, I think certainly in his
mind he felt that when the Black Key's really became
a big thing, which was in two thousand and ten, basically,
like they put out that single Tighten Up, which was
from the album Brothers, and that song became a pop

(20:41):
hit in a way that like no Black Keys song
had been a hit before. And two thousand ten just
happened to coincide with this period where the White Stripes
were not very active. I mean, they essentially cut short
of tour in two thousand nine and then they went
into this hiatus period that ultimately ended with their breakup
in twenty then. So there's certainly this like coincidental alignment

(21:04):
of the White Stripes going away and the Black Keys
starting to rise. And again I think to merely say that, like, oh,
the Black Keys became popular because the White Stripes weren't around,
you know, that's definitely oversimplifying things. But speaking to Jack
White's point, I don't think there's a question that like
Amy Whitehouse, for instance, popularize the type of like retro

(21:25):
soul music that like someone like Adele took and applied
to her own music. And if Amy Whitehouse hadn't been
there to open the door, maybe it would have been
harder for Adele to capitalize on this market that was
already in place, Like when when when she emerged. Um
to say that Adele wouldn't have become huge if Amy
Whitehouse had lived, that's probably oversimplifying it again, just like

(21:48):
it is in the White Stripes Black Keys analogy. But yeah,
I mean again, I don't think he's totally wrong to
say that. The thing with Jack White, though, is, you know,
I just feel like his image has changed a lot
from say, like the early odds, because like I remember,
like when Jack White first emerged and he was like
one of the coolest rock stars on the planet. And

(22:08):
I feel like maybe people like around my age, like
I'm in my early forties, I think we look at
Jack White in a certain kind of way that like
younger people don't, you know, Like I don't think that
Jack White is all that cool necessarily for like younger people.
I feel like he's now taken on this image of
just being like a grumpy, sort of anti technology guy
who's like, you know, listening to like Vinyl records all

(22:31):
day long, you know, like with like a monocle or
something you know, or whatever, like whatever kind of like snobby,
you know, caricature you want to make about Jack White.
I mean like I'm curiously because you're a little bit
younger than me, Like, what do you think about Jack White,
Like does he have any kind of like mystique for you.
I mean there's definitely a transition between I think of
it as him between him wearing T shirts and jeans

(22:51):
and him dressing like an amish willy Wonka. I think
there was definitely a transition there. I mean for me,
he was huge, total legend. I mean Seven Nation Army
for my age group was like stairway to heaven for
all the kids who wanted to learn to play guitar,
like that was the first riff that you learned how
to play. I mean the iconography around the white stripes
in general was you know, in the record stores in

(23:14):
in my town were literally alongside led Zeppelin and Nirvana.
I mean they were probably the only twenty first century
band I can think of that the posters were sold
in those stores alongside those classic rock bands. I mean
that they were huge and and so no I I
I see now kind of years later when he again
kind of became the anti technology guy, who really, uh,

(23:38):
you're right, seemed like like this curmudgeon, especially when all
the stuff about the Black Keys came out. And I
also have a lot of friends who were guitar players
who are angry at him for buying up all these
and popularizing these like old cheap uh like airline guitars
and stuff, and now they're all really really expensive and
unaffordable because he popularized them. But no, I uh, people
in my age group thought he was you know, our

(23:59):
Jimmy Page or something. Thought he was huge, that was amazing. Again,
I think that there is like this maybe duality with
the White Stripes. I think the White Stripes have like
a different stature than Jack White has on his own.
I think like as a solo artist, he's still sort
of struggling to established an identity that makes sense in
the modern era. Like I think if he got back
together with Meg White and did a tour, I think

(24:20):
there'd be a whole lot other level of excitement for
that than there would be for his own solo records,
even though, like I I like a lot of his
solo records. But you know, again, like he's an aging
rock musician. You know, he's now I think in his forties,
and yeah, it just seems like he's like this guy
that just insticates feuds with people or complains about people.

(24:42):
Being on their cell phones all the time, you know,
or complaining about social media all the time, and you
never want to be that guy. And you can really
see that manifest itself, I think in this Black Keys rivalry,
and I think on some level he was like self
aware about that, Like like this Rolling Stone interview that
he did, where again he was accusing essentially the Black
He's of ripping him off. Like he put out a
statement like right as the interview was about to come

(25:03):
out where like he apologized for it, which again it's
that's an incredible thing, isn't it, Like when you are
apologizing for an interview that like a lot of people
yet exactly it's like it it's like, oh no, like
I know I'm going to get in trouble for this,
like no one's even read it yet, but like he
can anticipate it. But like the apology that he gave,

(25:24):
like I mean, I don't know if you saw, like
did you see this, Like it doesn't seem like super sincere.
Oh no, all of it sounds incredibly backhanded and almost
condescending in ways. I thought. Yeah, I mean, like he
says like I wish the band the Black Keys all
the success they can get. He says, I hope the
best for their record label, and uh, he's like, Lord

(25:45):
knows that. I can tell you myself. A heart is
to get people to pay attention to a two piece
band with a plastic guitar. So any attention that the
Black Keys can get in the world, I wish it
for them again, kind of saying like, oh, yeah, I've
done what they've been there. I've been there and know
they're doing the same thing. It's cute and I know
it's hard and they're getting some attention, so good for them.
And uh. He also had to apologize for like essentially

(26:08):
slagging Adele lantadel Rey and and Duffy too, so like
he kind of offended them too by like saying they
would have a career if Amy Whitehouse had lived. So yeah,
I mean it was this very sort of condescending apology
that like probably didn't really achieve what he wanted. No,
I mean, especially the comparison things saying you know, I've
been there, I know what it's like. I feel like

(26:28):
that was gratuitous. That was the point for me. I'm
saying that you really this is really what you want
to be doing, or you just want to remind people
yet again that you've done exactly, You've walked that ground.
They're all in your wake right now because of you.
That's what I took it as. It's barely an apology,
more of just a way to remind people that that
he started this in a in a major mainstream way.
So you have this half big apology which you feel like, Okay,

(26:52):
maybe that's going to end it. But then the following year,
I guess it's like the fall of Like they got
into a barbrawl, like in New York, Like, like, what's
the deal with this story? Oh? This was incredible. So
Patrick Carney was performing at Neil Fest, a tribute concert
for Neil Young, and they were having an after party

(27:13):
at a barne a year called Cabin down Below. I
love the fact that a bar brawl took place at
a at a bar named after a Tom Petty song.
That's to me the best part of all this. So
Patrick Carney goes on Twitter and says, yeah, um, I
was at this bar last night. Never met Jack White
until last night. He came into a bar in New York.
I go to a lot with a few friends and
he tried to fight me. I don't fight, and I

(27:35):
don't get fighting, but he was mad three exclamation marks.
He's why I play music, the bully assholes who made
me feel like nothing. But anyway, Jack White, a fourty
year old bully tried to fight a thirty five year
old nerd. It might get loud, but it might also
get really, really sad and pathetic Jack White. This is
my favorite part. Jack White is basically Billy Corgan's dumbass

(27:56):
zero T shirt and human form. Patrick Garney, by the way,
is incredibly quotable, incredibly good with insults. Yeah, I man
like that, you know, like we've been focusing on Dan
are back and but the Patrick Carney element like with that,
like that is probably the best line that anyone had,
uh in this entire feuds. So tip the cat to

(28:18):
Patrick Kearney there. And of course, you know this this
tweet storm that catches Jack whites attention and he issues
a denial, but it's it's sort of like a non
denial denial, Like well, he says, like nobody tried to
fight you, Patrick, nobody touched you or bullied you. Bullied
is in is in quotes. You were asked a question
you couldn't answer. So you walked away, So quit whining

(28:39):
on the internet and speak face to face like a
human being. End of story. Which, by the way, for
regular listeners of this podcast, I always love it, like
when people in feuds really prioritize like the face to face,
like if you're going to assault me, but be in
the face. Like in our previous episode we talked about,
you know, creeding limp Biscuit, Scott Steff wrote that song

(29:02):
where he's like, if you're gonna shoot me in the head,
looked me in the face. Like, even if you're gonna
murder me, I want you to look me in the face.
So Jack very important in feuds exactly. So he denies it,
but then he also has this weird thing where he's like,
I asked you a question that you couldn't answer, which
do you think it? Very curious, I don't know. I
don't know, Like maybe it was about you know, hanging

(29:23):
out in like the Nashville private school again, like you know,
maybe that was still a thing. I don't know. I'm
very curious about that. But then, like I think Patrick Carney,
as we've said before, this was like an instant I
guess where the black Key's brought up this incident, even
though it again seems like Jack White instigated it, but
now I think Patrick Carney tried to tamp it down
after Jack White responded, yeah, they apparently they had a conversation,

(29:45):
and I think later that day or maybe the next day,
Patrick Carney deleted most of his tweets and tweeted out
talked to Jack for an hour. He's cool, all good,
which you know, it is a pretty nice way to
end it. And Jack White shared a similar message from
the Third Rail Records account said from one music istition
to another, you have my respect Patrick Carney, which is,
you know, at the end of the day, all that
these dudes really want respect from one another. It seemed

(30:07):
like it was like pretty much done after that, but
there were like a couple weird things that happened, Like
did you know that like Patrick Carney produced a couple
of songs by Jack White's ex wife Karen Elson. Oh yeah,
but they apparently was recorded at like the Third Man's
studios and everything. So I guess the Black Key's finally
got allowed into the Third Man's studios. So I would

(30:29):
take that as you know, tacit approval from Jack that
he was cool with it if you let him use
their studio, right exactly. Yeah, It's still a little weird though,
And like when you factor in like you know, Karen
Nelson's role in like leaking the emails, where like Jack White,
who was complaining about you know, the school and like
you know, saying that the Black Key's ripped them off.

(30:49):
Kind of a funny wrinkle what if that was the
Black Key's plan all along, Like maybe Karen was like
sort of like the back channel double agent and like
they like put her up to leak those emails. Yeah,
I don't know. The emails thing is crazy to me
because again, like I don't remember hearing about anything else
in those emails, So I don't know if like Jack
White was just like rage emailing his wife about the

(31:10):
Black Keys all the time, Like all of his emails
were just about the Black Keys for a while. It's
very strange to make his email is like black Keys
hater like at AOL dot com or something. So that
was kind of a weird thing, but it doesn't seem
like it was a big deal. And like there's been
things subsequent to that, like where they've made public displays
of support for each other. I think like when the

(31:32):
Black Keys put out a single in twenty nineteen from
their album Let's Rock. Didn't like Third Man Records like
tweet support for that song. Oh yeah, I said, more
evidence than Nashville Rock and Roll is alive, and well,
congrats on the new music Black Keys, which is you know,
really nice. And Patrick Carney returned the favor. He did
an interview with The Tennessee and and he called the
shout out really cool and he'd be big up the

(31:54):
new rock and Tours record, which I didn't much care for,
so that was very nice of him. And you know,
and it sounds like they've hung out in some recent
years and like they've you know, they both have talked
to journalists about how they really like each other. So
it seems like they have achieved that piece that we
were talking about earlier in the episode, this idea of
like how it could be hard for like adult males

(32:16):
to get over themselves and to you know, not look
at other men as threats and to be friendly with
each other. It seems like these guys have, uh, you know,
reached that place finally after many years of hating each other.
Just going back to the roots of this revelry, though,
I mean, do you think that like Jack White was
ever justified and feeling like he was ripped off by

(32:36):
these guys. I don't know, It's weird because he wears
his own like Delta blues influences so proudly. It's just
sort of strange like that he couldn't sort of see
that in another band they be like, oh cool, we
liked the same thing. So I understand the whole Amy
Winehouse argument about how he opened a lot of doors
that would have been closed to the Black Keys probably
had he not been the one to open them. But yeah,

(32:57):
I'm just I am surprised that that he couldn't see
a fellow musical kindred spirit. And also like I really
don't think Jack's artistic legacy in the White Stripes commercial
success was in any way hindered by the Black Keys
at all. Right, No, not at all. I feel like,
if anything, you could say like, well, this is evidence
of how the White Stripes changed rock music, that in

(33:20):
a way they helped make this idea of like a
two person, you know, blues rock band like a commercial entity.
I mean, it's worth mentioning. And I think we've mentioned
Flat duo Jets a couple of times in this episode,
Like the White Stripes did not like originate the idea
of like two people playing like blues riffs like Flat
Duo Jets was they were doing it like in the eighties,
and uh, Jack White, to his credit, has talked about

(33:43):
that band being a huge inspiration for him. And of
course Flat Doo Jets were nowhere near as successful as
the White Stripes ended up being or the Black Keys,
But yeah, you're right. I mean, I think as far
as the White Stripes go, and the Black Keys were
really looking at bands on like two different strata away
where I think for a time, the Black Keys achieved

(34:03):
a kind of pop success that I don't think the
White Stripes ever had. Like I don't know if they
ever had a song like Tighten Up that was played
on pop radio. But it's also true that the White
Stripes never really pursued that kind of success in their career.
And I think it's fair to say that like Jack
White wouldn't have wanted a song on pop radio. You know,
he was very deliberate about the production choices he made
and the kind of songs that he wrote, if anything,

(34:26):
you know, like as the White Stripes got later in
their career, like their records got weirder, like get behind
Me Satan is like a super weird record or Icky Thump.
You know, like those later White Stripes records are not
nearly as commercial as like say Elephant is, And you know,
the White Stripes didn't need that kind of pop success
because they had a certain kind of credibility that I
think was always going to sustain them in their career

(34:49):
and it probably would have stuck with them if if
they had been able to continue as a band, and
you know, if they ever come back, I think there
would be a lot of excitement for the White Stripes.
So yeah, for all their similarity is I think they
clearly could coexist in the world and not have to
go at each other's throats. My theory is that the
thing that bothered Jack White about the Black Keys is

(35:10):
that they made him feel less unique. And you get
the idea just even just looking at him and then
everything you know about him, that he cares very very
deeply about being unique. It seems like every stylistic choice
that he makes appears to be rooted in this desire
to just seem different, Like it almost is contrarian in
a way. And I think just the Black Key's appearing

(35:31):
so similar to him, just that alone had nothing to
do with impringing on his commercial success or or his
legacy in any way. I think it just it made
him feel like less individual. Maybe, Yeah, I think that's
absolutely right. I think, you know, more than like having
like a similar band structure or playing like a similar
kind of music, it was that very thing you're talking about,

(35:52):
that like, Jack White wasn't the quirkiest guy in the
room anymore, or that like the kind of thing that
he did was, Yeah, not that unusual, because here's another
band that is doing it and they're just as successful,
in some ways more successful than your band. You know,
maybe that just shows that this was more normal than

(36:12):
you thought. And yeah, for a guy like Jack White,
it seems like being normal is like the worst thing
you could call him. Well, and here's a weird flip
side of the coin too. And I don't know, because
I was I was in high school, so I had
my own feelings about it, but I don't know you
who was you know, writing professionally at the time, it
was almost harder for me to take the Black Keys
seriously when they first came on the scene, because I
just thought of them as a knockoff White Stripes, and

(36:33):
I feel like nobody talks about their perspective of sort
of being lumped in and seen as like you know,
and also ran rock duo from the Midwest who did
old blues rock in this era, Like was that something
that was discussed a lot in critical circles of like
when they first came on the scene, as being like, wait,
who are these people that are kind of trying to
get in Jack White's lane or not? Really? Oh? Absolutely,
and and and again, not only is it a two

(36:54):
person band, Not only is it a two person man
playing blues rock, it's like a two person band playing
blues rock that has like a color in their name,
and it's like a color that's like the opposite of
the White Stripes name, and instead of a stripe, it's
a key, Like it's kind of a similar construct there.
So yeah, and I think like earlier in their career,
like the Black Keys were definitely like a cult band

(37:15):
and they had a pretty good following. I saw them
on the Magic Potion tour and they were playing I
think in a room that housed like a thousand people,
you know, So they were that level of band, not
hugely successful, but like doing pretty well, and then they
just made this, i think, very deliberate shift away from
that garage e type sound see more of like a

(37:38):
glossy pop sound and partnering with Danger Mouse and making
records that could, you know, really work on radio. And
it's interesting because like this rivalry flares up when the
Black Keys make that pivot, and you could really argue
that at that point they were like the least like
the White Stripes that they ever were in their career,
like when they were putting out like Thick Freakness, like

(37:59):
that record or like the Big Come Up. The similarities
between what the White Stripes are doing and the Black Keys,
like it was very close, but like the White Stripeses
never really made a record like El Camino or like Brothers,
you know, like those records are pretty different from anything
that Jack White was doing. So yeah, it's interesting that
ended up flaring up at that point. But yeah, I

(38:22):
think ultimately with these two again, I kind of go
back to this idea of like, for me, when I
looked at it when I was writing my book, it
just seemed like a perfect metaphor for like how men
relate to each other. That like, instead of looking at
what unites you to somebody, you know, your common ground,
it becomes this competitive thing. And I think even like

(38:44):
with with men who like each other, there's often a
combative element to their relationship, and it's about sort of
giving each other ship, you know, either with like sort
of like a like a verbal gamesmanship, or sometimes it
can actually be physical, like if you're playing a lot
of sports together or something, and it becomes like this
weird power dynamic. And I just wonder like if initially

(39:05):
Jack White kind of felt the need to assert his
dominance over these guys. I mean, it seems like that
was their dynamic for a long time, and then fortunately
they just got over it at some point and we're
able to to chill out. Yeah. I mean, I can't
imagine that Dan are Back would try to, you know,
puff himself up back. You know. I feel like Jack
White asserts his dominance. I feel like Dan would have
been like, yeah, you're Jack White. It's okay, we're not

(39:28):
we're I mean, I feel like even he knew they
weren't in the same league. Despite the Black Key's huge
commercial success, at that period, I feel like he realized
that there's a different strata. We're gonna take a quick
break and get a word from our sponsor before we
get two more rivals. Well, this is the part of

(39:53):
the episode where we talk about the pro side of
each side of the rivalry, and if you talk a
Jack White, I think that this is the case that
we've been making up throughout this episode. I don't think
there's any question that Jack White's greatest albums with the
White Stripes are some of the best rock music of
their time. And I wonder if, like younger people realize that,

(40:14):
because I feel like Jack white solo career has been
kind of weird and his images so strange now that
maybe people have like forgotten like how great the White
Stripes are. But I think overall, you know, if you
look at his stature and rock music, he really is,
like I think looked at is like one of the
great rock stars and like one of the only rock
stars that can kind of stand toe to toe with
like the greats of previous generation. So like, if you

(40:36):
look strictly at his output as a musician, I think
he really deserves his props. Oh yeah, I mean you
know a lot of people talk about his songwriting being
an incredible conceptualist, but I love his guitar. He's one
of my favorite guitarists of all time. His solo on
Black Math Alone is just one of my favorites ever.
And Dan are Back once said that of the time

(40:56):
guitar bores the ship out of him, and I just
can't imagine Jack White ever feeling that way. I just
think that's such an interesting distinction between the two. Like
he I mean, that's the opening scene of Might Get Loud.
He makes a guitar out of like what a coke
bottle on a piece of wood or something like. I
just love how he just wrestles sound out of reminds
me a Neil Young in that way too. He's not

(41:17):
a virtuoso at all, just sheer force of will. He
can wrestle sounds out of his instrument. I love it
so much. So if we go over to like the
Black Key Side, I think it's clear that, like in
this rivalry, that they didn't really do anything wrong. Like
Jack White, as we've said, like he was the antagonist
almost in every instance, Like he was the one who

(41:39):
again felt threatened. I think by the Black Keys for
some reason and felt the need again, like as I
said before, like I think he really felt like he
had to assert his dominance in some way, which you know,
speaks to some level of like weird insecurity mixed with
like just meglomania you know on his part, which is
a very rock star type combination to have. But you know,
I don't think this food would have existed really if

(42:02):
Jack White hadn't been slagging the Black Keys in the
press so many times, or you know, attempting to fight
them in recording studios or in you know, bars, all
these different places. So you know, it's clearly like not
their fault that any of this happened, you know, unless
you count, of course, being a band that's not as
good as the White Stripes. Like that is I guess

(42:22):
their their crime, if you want to call it that
in this ravelry, that they were the band that came
in the White Stripes wake that did something similar to them.
That I think is like I think they're a really
good band in their own right, but like, are they
as good as the White Stripes, No, I don't think so.
But again, they're good rock band and they've they've made
good rock records, So you know, I think that's the

(42:42):
case that you make for the Black Keys. They also
seem so much more chill than Jack White too. Like
Jack White takes so many stands about like musical purity
and not using you know, electronic recording techniques, and he
seems to just make his life a living hell by
recording with like tape and razors, all these old timey things.
But there's something arguably to me more pure about the

(43:05):
Black Keys just being like dudes who want to rock
in a basement, like like, by by not taking all
those stands for authenticity impurity, it somehow seems even more
authentic and pure, and it's something I really appreciate them.
Like a lot of their albums sounds more emotionally vacant
to me in a lot of ways to like when
I play them, and I like them, But a lot

(43:25):
of the songs to be running together, especially the like
term Blue Era and the latest album What's Rock, I
really didn't like too much. But I don't know, I
just appreciate how that they seem to be trying less
hard and that's endearing. Yeah, I mean, I think what's
generally true is that like the best White Stripes albums
like reach down deeper and hit harder and last longer

(43:45):
than like the Black Keys records. I think the Black
Keys again, like they're just like a good time rock
band and like if you're having a barbecue, you can
put on the Black Keys record you can have a
good time. But I think like the White Stripes, it's
like their best records, it's like, oh, this is like
the Rolling Stones of Our Time are like the Leads
up One of our Time, Like it has that kind
of vibe to it and and that ultimately I think

(44:06):
defines a difference between these two bands. But like when
you look at them together, I think for all their
similarities and all the superficial you know, things that you
can point out that are the same between these two groups,
they're actually like pretty different. And I think that like
for me, like I like both bands and I appreciate
them for different reasons. Um Again, I think the White

(44:27):
Stripes are like they have kind of like an art
rock element to what they're doing, even though it's such
a primal kind of music. Um. I think Jack White
has a conceptual element, in an intellectual element that he
brings to the band that isn't there in the Black Keys,
like you said, like they are more of just like
good time, jo gole, drink some beer, have a good
time and you know, rock the night away. And I

(44:49):
think both of those kinds of music have their place,
and it kind of shows like you can do a
lot with a two person format. You know, it's just
because you have two people in your band and you
might be playing somewhat kind of music. That's really what
the similarity stops. And then you have your own personality
after that. Yeah, totally. I was at the White Stripes
had more of like a punk side to it, and
like you said, it made me feel so much more
than the Black Keys, which just just straight ahead, four

(45:12):
on the floor blues kind of stuff. And yeah, I
agree that they exist in very different places and planes
to me, and I like them both. Well, it looks
like this revelry is over. It was fun for a while.
We had some good confrontations in recording studios and in
bars and Karen Nelson's emails and Rolling Stone interviews. But
it seems like a seven nation army has held both

(45:33):
of these sides back, if you will, and now they're
at peace. So I guess we should be at Peace
two at the end of this episode of Rivals, so
thank you all for listening, and we will be back
with more feuds and beefs and long simmering resentments next week.

(45:54):
Rivals is a production of My Heart Radio. The executive
producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. Supervi as in
producers are Taylor Chicogne and Tristan McNeil. The producer is
Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan's run Tug. I'm Stephen Hyden.
If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave
us a review. For more podcast for My Heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
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