Folkie Fight: Simon vs. Garfunkel

Together, Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel formed one of the most popular and critically acclaimed duos in rock history, producing classic songs like "Mrs. Robinson" and "Bridge Over Troubled Water." But from the time they met as children, they were also competing with each other — for credit, for attention, and even for money. As the years went on, and they continued to reunite and then swiftly fall apart, their initial gripes never seemed to go away. Paul thought Artie never worked hard enough, and Artie thought Paul had a "Napoleon complex." In the end, their gentle music masked a lot of interpersonal aggression.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
and welcome to Rivals, to show about music deeps and
feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

(00:21):
I'm Jordan, and we will be your bridge over the
troubled relationship between Paul Simon and Arc Garth, uncle to
my very favorite artist. This one is such a farmer. Yeah,
you know, I thought we were going to be in
for just a nice, mellow, peaceful episode talking about these guys,
but we find once again that the rivalries that exist
within famous groups are often the bitterest, angriest rivalries that

(00:45):
there are. Oh yeah, I mean especially well, this one
just dates back so far. I mean when you knowing
each other as kids, that's when you really know. It's
like second only to family in terms of just like
fiercest band feuds. Yeah, you know, these two guys especially,
they signify so much. Obviously Seven and Garfuncle iconic pop
rock group, probably the most famous duo in rock history.

(01:08):
I can't think of another duo that would be bigger
than them. And they also represent something to me about
the sixties. Like you know, I was raised by boomer
parents and some of my earliest memories are looking at
the album cover of the Simon and Garfuncle Greatest Hits record,
which I think came out in the early seventies, and like,
Paul Simon and our Garfunical look like muppets on that cover,

(01:31):
Like they're very furry. Paul Simon has like a mustache,
his hair is long. You know, you've got Garfuncle in
the back. He's got his afro going on. So I
associate them with childhood and very peaceful feelings from that time.
But yeah, it wasn't that peaceful behind the scenes with
these guys. I feel like their entire relationship has just
been a sixty year cycle of a bitter bitter fight

(01:54):
marked by a reunion, the really short lived reunion, and
then another bitter bitter fights that sends them off in
different directions for an into a decade. Now. I think
the marked the first time we didn't get our reunions.
So maybe in the twenties of you know of live
music is everything again, maybe they'll be a reunion zoom
concert or something, yeah, or you know, not to be morbid,
but it might be a reunion in the great hereafter.

(02:14):
At this like, I'm not sure how many tours these
guys have left. We'll see, though maybe that's too dark
of a note to begin this episode. Well, on that note,
let's dive into this mess, oh man. Like we were saying,
these guys were childhood friends, which is what makes this
so much more sad. They grew up together in Queens

(02:35):
and they they met on in fourth grade. Right They
were in the school auditorium waiting for the busses to
come and pick them up, which is such an adorable
image to think of, Like, you know, little Paul, a
little already who's still probably like seven inches taller than Paul,
And to kill time, they just sort of staged an
impromptu talent show and already stands up and starts singing

(02:55):
a song and just blows everyone away, including Simon. And
you know, Paul his his dad's musicians, so he knows
the thing or two about music, and he knows this
guy's good. Yeah. I read that Robert Hillburn biography of
Paul Simon. I don't know if you if you read that,
did you read that? And there's a quote in there
where Paul Simon's talking about this faithful meeting that they had,
and he said that he was impressed by Art Garfuncle's

(03:18):
voice and also his ability to attract girls. And you know,
it's kind of funny now to think about our gar
Funcle being this sex symbol, you know, because he's so
you know, he's this very thin, pale looking man with
the blonde afro. I guess he kind of has that
like angelic thing going. But yeah, but I'm just saying

(03:39):
like that seems to have been the dynamic with these
two guys really from the beginning. I mean that, like
Art Garfuncle was this good looking, confident guy and Simon was,
you know, much shorter, maybe not as confident, more reserved,
more reserved, but had a ton of talent. And it's
just fascinating that you could see that forming all ready

(04:00):
at that age. And of course that's gonna end up
causing a lot of tension once these guys get a
little more grown up. One of my favorite things about
their early days is that they really got close when
they were cast in the school play of Alice in Wonderland,
and I just think the casting is so great. Do
you know who played who? Simon was the white rabbit
and garf Uncle was the cheshire cat. Is that right?
Like casting. You can't knock that casting at all. So

(04:23):
they were close as as teens, and they used to
sing each other with each other in their you know, bedrooms,
trying to work on getting that everly brothers vocal blend.
And they used to sing so close to each other
that they used to study the inside of each other's mouths,
like to watch how the tongue would hit the top
of their mouths, to try to like really mirror the
phrasing exactly, which is like, you know, incredible diligence. And

(04:45):
also if anyone used to write some Simon and Garf
uncle fan fiction, that's like a great place to start.
I was gonna say, I'm a little disturbed by this,
but I guess that makes you a better singer if
you're looking at the other guy's tongue. I don't. I'm
not a singer, so I don't know. That seems strange
to me, But the proof is in the pudding. With
these guys, apparently that worked. It was a thing where
like family members like think of like bands like The

(05:06):
Beach Boys and Heart and things like that where they
can sit there. Blend is so much better than people
who aren't family members because of a little almost imperceptible
like dialect, things like just getting that just so spot
on really makes all the difference in harmony. So they
were right, yeah, like you said, definitely, the proof is
in the in the recording. So they were singing together
one day and they were trying to remember the lyrics

(05:26):
to Everly Brothers song called Hey Doll Baby, and they
couldn't get them right, and they ended up accidentally writing
their own song, first song called Hey Schoolgirl, and it
became kind of their party piece and they performed at it,
like you know, amateur talent shows and stuff across Queens
and um and Paul again he ambitious and his dad's musician.
They ended up bringing the song to a sort of

(05:47):
a tin pan alley brill Building music publisher in Manhattan,
and they made a record and it did very well.
They published it as Tom and Jerry and Hey Scrolgirl.
Got to got to forty line on Billboard, so I
mean it was a decent size hit. They went on
American Bandstand and performed alongside Jerry Lee Lewis, so they

(06:07):
were like, you know, decent sized teen stars for a
minute there, and you would think they'd be on top
of the world. I mean, it's pretty incredible to have
a hit right out of the out of the gate.
But there's this weird thing that happened that ends up
causing the first big ripped in their relationship, and I
feel like it lasts forever in their relationship, Like they

(06:27):
never really got over this. Like where Paul Simon, you know,
he makes some money from this song, he puts it
in the bank, and then he also signs a solo
deal to record under the name True Taylor, which is
an amazing uh stage name by the way, True Taylor. Um.
But he does this without consulting with gar Funcle first,

(06:49):
and when Garfuncle finds out about it, he hits the
roof like he feels like Simon is sneaking behind his
back and he stabbed him in the back, and it
ends up killing their friendship for several years. Right Yeah,
I mean, well it's weird because already later would say,
you know, I I don't think I ever would have
gotten into recording it wasn't for Paul, Like that was
kind of his thing, and he kind of pulled me along.

(07:10):
I wasn't competitive. I he was a student, he was
an academic and he was planning on He took his
royalties from Hey school Girl and put it in the
bank and was going to go to Columbia to study.
So I think from Paul's perspective, he thought, Okay, this
isn't really my buddy Arts thing, like, but I really
want to commit to this. I'm gonna make sure I'm
protected and get my own deal. But Art, when he
found out about it a couple of months later, I

(07:32):
think I think he actually was fairly long in the
process of his own little solo career. He never he
just viewed such a betrayal, and um years later he
described that as the moment that their relationship shattered. And
this is ninety eight, you know, I mean, this is
like ten years before Mrs Robinson and everything. And it's
crazy to think that years before any Simon and Garf

(07:52):
Uncle stuff ever was recorded, their relationship is already categorized
as shattered. But I mean, you made a good point
about this before this. You that, like their their relationship
is essentially this series of reunions that they would go
through in every decade, like where there would be a
separation and then there would be a reunion. And it
does seem like with Simon, because you know, he does

(08:13):
have a reputation for being a bit of a prickly
person um, even sneaky or arrogant. You know, if you
want to go that far, and if you are inclined
to look at him uncharitably, you could say, like, oh,
as soon as he had a little success with his friend,
he was already conniving to have his own side thing

(08:33):
where he could be the star. Um. Which I don't
think that's that an entirely fair way to look at it,
but it's not entirely wrong either, if you want to
look at it that way. And this is funny how
that is going to end up repeating itself essentially once
these two guys get much more famous, absolutely, and they
spent years apart. They didn't have a meaningful conversation for years,

(08:55):
and then around three sort of at the height of
the Granite Village folk music room with Peter Palm, Mary
and Bob Dylan and everybody, Uh, they found themselves back
in Queens. I think they both graduated school and they
decided to to reunite and be a folk act, and
they recorded their first album, which not many people get
much love to, but I really enjoy Wednesday morning, three
five am with um Tom Wilson, Bob Dylan's producer. UM,

(09:20):
what do you think, aboum? I almost really enjoyed it.
I think it's solid. I mean, it's not as good
as their later records, and it certainly sold poorly. I
think it's sold like three thousand copies, which is like,
you know, oh tanged. It would be like if they
put their record out on band camp or something, you know,
back then, but this is like a major label. So yeah,
they it was not a promising start to their career commercially,

(09:40):
but so they split, Actually they split again. Paul goes
off to England to to sort of make his way
as a as a folky over there. I think Art
actually goes back to Columbia and keep studying. Um. I
think he was studying mathematics, and then completely unbeknownst to
either of them, Tom Wilson, about a year later, sort
of after the Birds are big, all the folk rock

(10:00):
thing is getting huge, the Birds and like a Rolling
Stone as a hit. He takes the sound of Silence
sort of the standout track from the album, and overdubs
electric guitar and bass and drums on it and re
releases it completely like Paul aren't have no idea, like
Paul's over in England, and then he was still kind
of keeping track on what was going on at home
by looking at billboard, and all of a sudden he

(10:21):
saw his name in there. I was just like, what,
what the hell is this? And the song became a hit,
and they kind of reunited just because it was a hit,
and you know, if you think about it years later,
it kind of interrupted what they were doing. Fame sort
of came as the surprise, and I don't even know
if it was like a welcome one. You know, Art
was in the middle of school and Paul had a
relationship in in the UK with this woman Cathy Chitty,

(10:44):
who's um immortalized in Kathy's song, and in America, the
Kathy he's singing to is this Kathy Um. So I
don't know if they've ever really said this, but I
always kind of wondered how they reacted to that, as like, oh, well,
I guess I gotta like ride this thing out now
while strike while the iron is hot. And then before
they knew that, they sort of were accidentally famous together

(11:04):
and yoked together to this thing that got way bigger
than they ever expected. I mean, I think it's hilarious
too that of course they inevitably have the argument over
how they're going to be built because they end up
being Simon and Garfunkele. But Garfuncle isn't happy about that.
He wants to be Garfuncle and Simon, which I mean
that sounds really weird to me because I'm used to

(11:25):
Simon and Garfunkele. But I mean I feel like, just
in terms of like how those names sound, it seems correct.
And then of course Simon's prominence in the group, it
seems proper to put him first. But that was a
fight too. Write Yeah, I think Already was like, come,
Simon and Garfunckle sounds like a law firm, right, But
he still has some ingar resentments about the side deal

(11:47):
the True Taylor controversy right at that at that time.
Oh yeah, he later said, you know, I never forget
and I never forgive Already's quote. I mean it never
really their resentments they had, His kids were still present,
Art was still resentful of the true Tailor thing, and
then Paul was really jealous of Art, his height, the
way he looked, and his voice. I feel like we

(12:09):
even talked about his voice enough yet, I mean, he
just had that incredible angelic tenor, and Art sort of
was the frontman in a lot of ways. I mean,
he took all the lead vocal parts while Paul kind
of handle all the guitar work, and it made him
seem like the frontman, and a lot of times Paul
was worried that he wasn't getting enough to do as
the guy who actually, you know, wrote the songs. Yeah.
I mean, it's funny reading that Robert Hilburn book because

(12:32):
it feels like a memoir even though it's like ostensibly
a biography, but you feel like Paul Simon is using
this book as a vehicle to settle scores with people,
and Art Guard Funkel was like one of the big
people that he's trying to settle scores with. And like
one thing that like our girl Funcle said about Paul
Simon is that he had a Napoleon complex, Which it's

(12:56):
like hilarious thing to say because obviously with that means
is that someone is a control freak essentially, but also
it's taking a shot at his height, so it's like
a double shot at at Paul Simon. This idea that
I think Our Guard Funcle always felt that, you know,
he felt constrained and he felt overshadowed wrongly by by

(13:17):
Paul Simon, that they weren't proper partners and treated that way,
Whereas from Paul Simon's perspective, he I think rightly felt
that he was doing way more work because he had
to write all these songs, whereas Our Guard Funcle could
go off and smoke weed and you know, hit on
girls and do all the fun things that sixties rock
stars got to do. Paul Simon, especially at this time,

(13:41):
was an incredibly prolific writer. Right There was an interview
that he did once with Alec Baldwin his podcast Here's
the Thing, where he said, you know, within a five period,
five year period from nine to nineteen sixty nine, I
wrote most of my big hits. And really we're talking
about songs like Mrs Robinson and you know, Bridge over

(14:02):
Troubled Water and uh, you know, Homeward Bounds Boxer and
Sounds of Silence and all of these iconic songs that
even with Paul Simon's great solo career, I mean, those
songs are still the defining songs of of of Paul
Simon's life, and he wrote them all within a pretty
small period. So yeah, there was definitely uh, not a

(14:25):
lot of love in this group, even as they became
like one of the biggest American pop groups of their time.
And this all leads to the last album they made together,
Bridge Over Troubled Water. So they worked with Mike Nichols,
the director on the Graduate soundtrack, which was obviously a
huge boon tow to their uh, to their their influence
and their their record sales. UH. Mike Nichols decides he

(14:46):
wants to cast both of them in his next movie,
which is an adaptation of the book Catch twenty two,
and so a few weeks before shooting was due to start,
Mike calls up, Paul, it's as well, bad news. The
script's really really long. We have to cut your part um,
but we're gonna keep Artie. Is that all right? Okay?
He kind of, you know, reluctantly accepts that, so already

(15:07):
goes to Mexico to film alone. And you know, for
for art this is great. It's like his chance to
really not just be the guy who sings Paul Simon songs.
It's his chance to do his own thing, and you know,
it works really well for him. For for Paul, it's
just another example of like, oh great, so now this
my good looking partner is gonna go be you know,
Matt and I idol and I'm back, you know, in

(15:28):
the studio alone, right and all the stuff that's that
he's gonna sing to make him sound great. It just
seemed like it's just one of the many injustices of
their relationship. Um. He tries to put a good face
on it, and he wrote the Only Rights the Only
Living Boy in New York is kind of like a
good luck message to him, which you know is a
sweet's a nice song. But it gets really bad when
the shooting schedule was supposed to be for only three

(15:50):
months stretches into nearly a year. And so Paul, by
this point it's just fuming. I mean, being cut from
the film is bad enough, being made the weight around,
while garf Uncles being a movie star is just you know,
an ego blow he couldn't deal with. Right, Yeah, he's
back in school again, where all the girls are gravitating
to art Garfuncle. It's like they're back in public school days.
So Paul writes another song and it's it's one of

(16:11):
my favorite songs that's actually called so Long Frank Lloyd, right,
And that's kind of mostly addresses the sort of final
It's sort of like the final farewell to art and
Art was a a one time architecture student Colombia, and
it kind of masks the hurt of this like splintered friendship. Uh,
you know, I'll remember all the nicely harmonized till dawn.
I've never laughed so long, So Long, So Long. It's like, really,

(16:33):
it's it's heartbreaking to read, and Garfuncle sort of accepted
it as such, even said years later, you know that
was a wink from Simon to Garfuncle. You know, so
Long already will be splitting up next year. You may
not know it yet, but that's the way it's gonna go.
Um beautiful song though, right, Oh yeah, that's that's that's great.
I mean, that whole record is amazing. I didn't realize
it was the biggest selling record of all time until

(16:54):
I think until Thriller, I think, at least through most
of the early seventies. Yeah, I mean, like I said,
the timing a Guardfunk with Greatest Hits album and like
Bridge over Troubled Water. If you were raised by boomers,
you had those records and planted into your brain at
a very early age. So Art comes back from filming
finally and the recording bridge over Troubled Water, and they
need a twelveth song for the album. I don't know why,

(17:16):
but they felt that twelve songs was the number of
tracks you needed for it. So Paul has a song
called Kuba Cee Nixon No, which is sort of a
pretty overtly political track, and Garfunk was not feeling it.
He just thinks this is like way too blatant, way
too obvious. He wants to uh have an old creole
corral in there, which is a very art thing they

(17:36):
want to do. Uh, And neither one with Budge that
Paul wouldn't wouldn't take a song off, and Art really
wanted this, this creole corral. So instead of compromise, well,
I guess this was a compromise and only came out
with eleven tracks, which I feel like they were both
wrong in that case. I feel like in a way,
they they're stealmate was the best thing that could have happened,
because I feel like I haven't heard Cubacy Nixon. No,

(17:58):
but just judging by that song title, it sounds awful.
But this is all leading up to I think one
of the most fascinating to me, like fissures in their
relationship as it manifested in their music, which was the
resentments that came out of the big song from that record,
which of course is Bridge Over Troubled Water, which is
a song that Paul Simon writes, and I feel like

(18:22):
instantly becomes a standard, Like it's a song that all
sorts of singers ended up covering within a year or
two of it coming up, the best version in my
view being the Aretha Franklin version, which is just beautiful
powerhouse uh rendition of that, And it's like one of
those songs. It's like this big, beautiful ballad that like
if you were to go into an algorithm and say,

(18:45):
give me the greatest song of all time, like I
feel like it would produce something like Bridge over Troubled Water,
Like it just has that kind of you know, really strong, beautiful,
like emotional impact type thing. It's like what you think
of when you think of a great song. I mean,
isn't that fair to say it's a Catharsis it just
it brings it gives you hope. You know, it's comforting,

(19:06):
it's a Catharsis it just it just feels like wrapping
a big, warm towel around you after getting out of
a shower or something. You know, it just it makes
you feel loved, It makes you feel safe. I it's
really one of my all time favorite pieces of music. Yeah,
it feels very familiar the first time you hear it,
and yet there's also a lot of very unique touches
that that Simon is able to bring into that song.
And the person who ends up singing it, of course

(19:29):
is our Garfuncle. Like I don't think Simon sings at
all on that song, even as a harmony singer. And
when they would perform it live, like said, Simon would
actually leave the stage and let garf Uncle sing it um.
But later on after Simon Funcle broke up, like Paul
Simon would, I feel really bitter about this. He actually

(19:50):
didn't interview uh in nineteen seventy two with John Landau
Rolling Stone, where he complained that like Our Garfuncle originally
didn't want to sing Bridge over Troubled Water, and that
Paul Simon had to convince him to sing it, and
then when that happened, the audience would always go nuts
for our Garfuncle and he would be the star while

(20:11):
Paul Simon was literally standing in the wings. And at
that point he started to feel like, what the hell
is this? Why am I being overshadowed, you know, for
my own song? And it really seems like that song,
which again is this iconic track. It feels like, in
a way like a like a bow on the Sixties,

(20:32):
in the same way that like hey Jude does by
the Beatles. Yeah, let it be. I mean, this crowning achievement.
And in a way I feel like it was maybe
the final nail in the coffin, you know this, like,
at least for Simon, this idea that like I don't
want to be I don't need this guy, right, I

(20:53):
mean don't. Don't you think that's fair to say. I
think it definitely cemented that feeling. I think it got
even worse when Mike Nichols came back to Art and
was like, hey, yeah, I catch Way two. That was great.
I want to make another movie, And Paul just said,
you know what, alright, alright, you want to go to
a movie. Start fine, like I don't I clearly don't
need you. I can write all this stuff and sing
it myself. Go do your thing. And and that was

(21:15):
really I think the death now. And I don't actually
know if they really talked it out and formally split.
I think it was just kind of one of those
like we're not going to talk about We're just not
going to work together anymore. Is that? Does that sound right? Yeah?
I think so. In that movie that Nichols wanted our
girl Funcle to be in after Catch twenty two is
Cardinal Knowledge, which is great film. It's a great movie.

(21:35):
And I gotta say, Art Garfuncle underrated actor. He's really
good in that movie. And there's another movie that I
love him in called Bad Timing Nicholas Rogue movie from eighty.
Both of those movies are like quite dark explorations of
like the male sexual psyche, like basically about like how

(21:56):
men are awful. And gar Funkele he's very unlikable people
in those movies, and uh, he's actually pretty fearless portraying that.
And again it kind of runs counter to his image,
which is of this you know, sort of soft angelic
milktoast type singer. He has a dark side. It's weird

(22:20):
to say Art Garth Funcle's dark side, but it's true.
He has a dark side that he really shows, I
think more as an actor than as a singer, which
is really fascinating. But yeah, you're right that Simon was
feeling stifled. He wanted to be the main guy. He
wanted to be True Taylor in the seventies, and garf
Uncle was probably feeling that, you know, Simon wasn't giving

(22:43):
him the respect that he needed in the group and
he was going to go off and be a movie star.
And I feel like, if you're gonna make a movie
about Simon and garf Uncle, one of the like crucial
dramatic scenes when you have the big orchestral crescendo, is
their last concert in July at a New York stadium
in front of like fourteen thousand people. They play the
last show, they go into the parking lot, they pause,

(23:04):
they shake hands, and they just go their separate ways.
You know, had the camera hold on that empty part
of the parking lot, like, oh devastating. That sounds like
a Paul Simon song. Simon should have written that as A,
but they weren't done for good and really, I mean
they were collaborating fairly soon after that, at least, like
I guess it was five years after that when they

(23:24):
got back together. Yeah, it's funny. I mean Paul felt
that art solo career was not taking off because he
was taking these really like kind of saccharin ballads and
and stuff like his. Have you heard uh Art's first
solo albums album called Angel Claire, which is it's got
some good stuff on and he's doing songs by great
songwriters like Van Morrison, Jimmy Webb, Randy Newman. I think

(23:48):
Paul actually helps him out and does uh does backing
vocals on the Charlie Monroe song What's It Called Down
in the Willow Garden with Jerry Garcia is on it too.
I think Jerry Garcia is on it. Jj A Kale
plays a guitar solo on it. I mean, there's like
some badass people that play on a very not badass record.
I mean, at least in terms of like being a

(24:08):
tough record that you would associate with those guys. I
actually like Angel Claire. I have to say, it's like
if you enjoy seventies yacht rock Angel Claire, I think
is like a pretty good record, and uh it has
a lot of the hallmarks of like Soft Rocket of
that time. And you know, our garf uncle is a

(24:29):
really great singer. Even when the material on that record
is kind of weak, the sound of it and the musicianship,
I think, is um still enough for me to enjoy it.
I think the worst thing about Angel Claire, or the
way that it suffers, is when you compare it to
the Paul Simon records that we're coming out at that time,

(24:50):
like the self titled record that comes out in seventy
two that has Mother and Child Reunion and Me and
Julio done by the Schoolyard and Duncan Duncan, Duncan Duncan
is an amazing song. And then you have There Goes
Raymond Simon, which has Code of Chrome and it has
American tune. I mean he really, you know, hit the

(25:10):
ground running, Paul Simon with his solo career. And I
had to laugh again when I read the Robert Hilburn book. Um,
there's a very caddy section in that book where they
can where Hilburn compares the critical reaction to Angel Claire
to like the reception that really Paul Simon records were getting,

(25:32):
and obviously our guard Funcle is not going to come
out looking very good in that kind of comparison. And
I just felt like, maybe I'm reading too much into it,
but I was. When I read that, I felt like, Oh,
this is Paul Simon pushing that button, like fifty years later,
like I'm still going to show this guy up, you know,
I'm gonna settle the scores against Art by you know,

(25:55):
showing them up in this way, you know. And in
Artie's defense, Andrew Claire, like you said, incredible positionship. And
I don't think Art gets enough credit up for sort
of the crafting the sonic elements a lot of the
Simon and Garfuncle albums, I mean, a lot of the
Frank Lloyd Wright nickname that that's Paul gave him was
partially because he was an architecture student, but also because

(26:16):
he credited him for sort of being able to be
the one to build the tracks and arrange them and
so a lot of that stuff that you know, I mean,
obviously Paul wrote the songs, but a lot of the
the arrangements and just even like the production work in
the mixing, Art had a huge say in and had
a lot of sway into so um and that really
comes across in his solo work, but it didn't take

(26:37):
off in the same way. I think I saw a
documentary where and I didn't know this, Like my favorite
Paul Simon song and Simon and Garfunckle song is the
Boxer and there's that little instrumental break in the middle
where I think it's a flute or I don't know
what instrument it is, but um our garlf uncle wrote
that solo, which is really beautiful. It's like one of
my favorite parts of the song. So yeah, you're right.

(26:59):
He did have a way of arranging songs that did
make an impact that you don't necessarily give him credit for.
When you think about Simon and Garfunckle, you just sort
of think that Paul Simon did it all. And it
does seem like on some level Simon recognized that because
you know in five they end up getting back together
and they did that song in My Little Town, which

(27:20):
I actually love it. Paul said he wrote it for
Art as like a favor because his image needed toughening up,
because all there's Angel Claire really wasn't cutting it. You know,
it was all saccharine, lightweight pop ballats. So he says,
you know what, here here's this like really unsentimental song
about you know, a guy who hates where he grew
up and this this will give you some some weight,
some have to really like help you. That was what

(27:40):
I brought to the partnership. And and you know, I've
never been able to work out if this was like
a genuine desire to be helpful or Paul's way of
saying to his old friend like, no, you dummy, here's
how you do it. You know, Like I can't figure out,
like what is intent was mind giving him that song?
I mean, I think it was a little bit of both. Probably,
I think, you know, like when it comes to Simon
and garfund Cale, my impression is that Paul Simon has

(28:02):
an attitude that you could describe as canny. Maybe a
less charitable person could describe his cynical where it's almost
like a bank that he can go back to and
get more capital from when he needs it. Because there's
definitely moments in his career where he was in lulls
where he ended up returning to that well to revive
his career. Now, I mean, this isn't really an instance

(28:23):
to that, because he was still um, I mean, he
was pretty successful at this time. And uh, in a way,
it kind of feels like maybe he was doing our
guard Funcle favor by doing this like this. This song
ended up being on both of their records. It's on
still Crazy after all these years for Simon, and I
think it's on Breakaway. I haven't dug that deep into

(28:47):
the Garfuncle discography, so I'll think a word for it
that break Aways good. But it was a top ten hit.
But and they ended up playing on SNL. But even that, like,
it's pretty awkward when you watch them, it's great. I
mean it's like they I mean it's it's kind of
a trend wreck in a way. I mean you cringe
because it's they're really playing up there like we hate

(29:10):
each other, but here we are thing. I mean, I
think Paul says something like, so you've come crawling back arts. Oh,
it's really nice for you to invite me on your show, Paul,
which is you know, I mean you can't tell how
much of that is just for laughs and how much
of it is just like you know a socially acceptable
way to vent their their resentment towards each other. And
my favorite appearance that they ever did, ever, bar none

(29:34):
is is the Grammys when Paul Simon and John Lennon
are presenting an award for I think his Record of
the Year or something, I forget what it is, and
they announced the winner and accepting the award on behalf
of whoever won is Art car uncle and Art walks
up there and he's wearing his his uh his tuxedo
T shirt and Paul just looks at him and goes,

(29:55):
I thought I told you to wait in the car,
which which is always cracks me up. It's a great line,
but yeah, it's just like Jesus, it's brutal. But I
mean again, just the idea of you have learning the
McCartney giving them the awards, so you have their whole thing,
and then you have Simon and Garfuncle acting out their

(30:16):
whole thing. I mean, come on, you you can't beat that,
especially if you host a rivalries podcast. This is the
big bang of of seventies rock star rivalries. Oh it's
so good. We're gonna take a quick break and get
a word from our sponsor. Before we get to more rivals. Now,

(30:41):
when I think about Simon and Garfuncle reunions, like the
thing I always think of is the Central Part reunion
that occurred in the early eighties, And I guess I
would add this to the trilogy of like iconic Simon
and Garfunkel albums that I remember from when I was
a kid, the greatest hits album Bridge Over Troubled Water,
and then the live record from this show where they're

(31:03):
on the cover and it looks like they're both wearing
like foundation in Rouge. I don't know if you have
I don't if you've seen the video that it looks
like they're wearing makeup in the video. Oh yeah, it
was like a big Paul really wanted to wear a
hairpiece and was trying to get already to do one too,
because he just, you know, he wanted to look like
they're they're sixties selves and they're both starting on top.

(31:25):
So yeah, I don't doubt that they had some some
pancake makeup on there, because I think I mean, yeah,
they were around forty years old when that happened, so
you know, especially at that time, that was pretty old
for a rock star and they're really leaning on the
nostalgia that people, you know, we're really starting to have
for the sixties at that point. And again, like with
as I was saying before, like this was a moment

(31:47):
in Paul Simon's career, like where he was probably at
his lowest. This was like the period before Graceland obviously
totally reinvents his career in six. But like you know,
after like One Trick Pony, which was a movie that
he started in actually a pretty good movie. I don't
know if you've seen that. I haven't seen it. It's

(32:08):
it's pretty good. Actually, Paul Simon as an actor is
also quite good, although not as good as our Garfuncle.
I'll give Garfuncle the edge in terms of acting in
the head to head matchup. But you know, One Trick
Pony wasn't a success, and then he ended up putting
out a record called Hearts and Bones. A little bit
after this, Simon at Garfuncle reunion and that was a

(32:29):
commercial flop. Although that is also like quite a good record. Um,
but I know, like with this reunion that they did
at the Central Park show, which was a humongous show.
It's like half a million people, it's bigger than Woodstock,
and I think the idea was that exciting. I mean
they ended up doing a like a tour after that,

(32:50):
and I think there was a thought that they were
going to actually make a record, but they were just
sniping at each other constantly behind the scenes. Oh yeah,
I mean on the so the concert so to Park
led to a world tour in eighty two, and before
long this they weren't speaking to each other. And finally
Paul was like, you know what, gives what's wrong? And
Art said, you know what, I'm still pissed about the

(33:13):
True Tailor thing. And I guess Paul was like, I
was fifteen years old. How can you carry that betrayal
for fifteen years? You know, you punished me for a
mistake I made when I was a teenager. And Art
looked at him and said, you know what, you're still
the same guy, which isn't It's like, I just love
the True Tailor. He could not get over it. I

(33:33):
couldn't get over it. I mean, am I wrong? I
think Hearts and Bones was the beginning. I think that
originated as as a Simon and Garfuncle record, and then
it became a Paul Simon record. Am I wrong on that? Yeah,
it was gonna be called think too much? And they
were recording together. I mean, this was like I think
at this point it was clear that, like, you know,
this really wasn't working. They were just trying to grin

(33:54):
and bear it and make the album because it would
have sold the Brazilian copies and they're working methods were
totally different. Like Art was always a little more like,
you know, he'd like to go take walks and listen
to stuff on his walkman, and kind of like thinking.
Paul is a lot more methodical about it. And I
guess I guess Paul was mad at him for like
smoking a lot of weed at that point too, So
they were just always button heads about just how to

(34:16):
go about doing it. By the end, they ended up
I guess Art White or Paul wiped all of arts
vocals from it, just just just brutal and said, you
know what, these songs are too personal. This is I
think it was about the dissolution of his marriage. You
know what, this is mine. Sorry, Art, You're gone, which
I think makes sense actually weak when you hear Hearts
and Bones, it does make sense as a Paul Simon record.
Oh my god. I mean the title track. I mean,

(34:38):
you take two bodies and you twirl them in the
one their hearts. Oh my god. Yeah, I mean it's
the lyrics and that you're You're absolutely right. I think
it makes more sense of something that's just so personal
from him. And I know, like I mean, Art Garfuncle
has been criticized for basically not interpreting words like his records,
like he's so much more of a melody guy. He
doesn't really dig into like the lyrical content necessarily. Like

(35:00):
there's a song on Angel Claire called old Man. It's
a Randy Newman song, and it's this song basically about
an elderly man dying alone. A lot of pathos in
that song, and then you listen to the Art Garfuncle
version and it's like this beautiful pop song, and it's
like he didn't really even look at that at the

(35:20):
content of the song, like when he did his arrangement
of it. So it would have been funny too if
he had done that to like a Simon and Garfuncle
version of Hearts and Bones. I think it's funny too that, uh,
when grace Land came out a few years after that, which,
of course again huge success ends up reinventing Paul Sammon's career.

(35:41):
That our garlf uncle slagged that off that he didn't
like like that record. He thought it was like a
novelty record essentially. Oh yeah, he said, like, okay, cool
like that. The South African sound is good for like
a track, but are always prided himself on like on
Bridge Over Troubled Water, every song sounds so different. I mean,
you've got like the Vegas horns of Keep that's customer satisfied.
You've got like Cecilia and the weird percussion, you've got

(36:04):
the gospel stuff, Bridge Over Trouble Waller. Every you look
at it, every track has a really distinct feel, and
Art credits himself with doing that. And so I think
with something like Grace Slam, which is, you know, obviously
a masterpiece and you know, one of my favorite albums,
he thought like, Okay, this is great. This is a
great spice. It's not a whole meal, like let's let's
let's even it up a bit or bury it up
a bit. So yeah, he kind of was pretty vocal

(36:25):
about not being all that into it. Yeah, which again,
I mean, I'm sorry, I just think it's hilarious that
Art Funcle slagged off Graceland. I think that just shows
the pettiness of these two guys. Yeah, it's pretty better.
It's it's Graceland Art Garfuncle, Like, what have you done
musically since Angel Claire? Not a whole lot my friends

(36:48):
from water Ship Down? Okay, you have that. That's about it.
So these guys end up getting reunited again be when
they're inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,
and um, it's like all over again. Yeah. I mean
they were fairly cordial, but there's like definitely some sub

(37:11):
tweets dug into their interaction at that speech. Paul's up
there at the podium, is now we can join all
the other happy couples like I contain a Turner, the
Everly Brothers Mick and Keith, Paul and the other Beatles,
which is, you know, pretty good. And then Art tries
to be sincerest. I want to thank most of all
the person who's the most enriched my life by putting

(37:32):
these great songs through me, my friend Paul here. And
you know it should have been this touching moment of reconciliation,
but Paul can't resist just just that little dig, he says,
Arthur and I agree about almost nothing. But it's true.
I haven't riched his life quite a bit now that
I think about it. Uh. And then they performed and

(37:53):
then like they split and they didn't say anything to
each other. So I'm guessing that Art garf uncle did
not appreciate that little dig at the end. And it
seems like at this point, you know, the iconography with
these two guys is that they're old friends essentially, Like
there was a There's that song old Friends. There was
a tour that they did a decade after this called

(38:14):
old friends. But I mean, it seems like by now
that they are not friends, right, I mean, it seems
pretty clear that their friendship has ended a long time ago.
It just makes me, It just makes me think of
like the other speech that Paul Simon gave at the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame when he was inducted
as a solo artist. And yet no Angel Claire Love

(38:35):
from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for our Garfuncle,
by the way, he has not been inducted as a
solo artist. Just Paul uh he he says, you know,
I want to thank our guard Funcle and say that
I regret the ending of our friendship, and I hope
that some day before we die, we will make peace
with each other. And then he adds, because he's always

(38:56):
got he's always got to get that, Paul Simon digging.
He says, no rush, And there really wasn't a rush.
I mean, although again, you know, in the in the
odds they ended up reuniting, um and I mean, I mean,
do you feel like those reunions were at all fueled
by sentimentality or anything or was it just a money grab? Oh? Man,

(39:16):
I don't know. I mean I read somewhere that for
the two thousand three Union they made like a million
dollars a night to play, which is the sane. Yeah,
I mean, I just can't. But then I also read
that during one of the reunions, I don't think it
was the O three one. I think it was one
where they were like had to be pulled apart backstage,
like just so the answer your question, yes, I think

(39:40):
it was purely money. Although I have to say I
did see the two thousand three Union show. It was
actually one of my first concerts now I think about it, um,
and it was really incredible. I who was you know,
sort of dimly aware of their their their Tumultumus backstory.
Was kind of watching trying to see if there are
any signs of animosity, and I thought it was very

(40:01):
warm and sweet. And then they they brought they had
the Everly Brothers as their opening act, and they all
sang together and it was really great. So at least
from an audience perspective, it was awesome. But but yeah,
but then, but then they do another tour in two
tho ten or there was this idea that they were
going to do a tour and then they played jazz
Fest in New Orleans and they're playing the show and

(40:24):
it becomes clear that like our garth uncle can't sing
at all, that he has like an issue with his
vocal cords. I guess it was like a partial paralysis
of his vocal cords. And apparently this had been an issue,
and like he had told Simon that it was going
to be fine, that he's gonna, you know, be able
to do the tour, but it becomes clear that that's

(40:45):
not going to happen, and they have to cancel all
these dates and I think it cost them like a
million dollars each to cancel thes like a huge loss
that they had to take, and it seems like that
is the final of final straws with these guys, like
because I Paul Simmon's attitude was like he let us
down like this this this screw up who doesn't want
to work hard. I work way harder than him, and

(41:08):
he's finally screwed me again, and I'm not gonna let
it happen. I mean, is that a fair assessment? Yeah,
there was a case of like, you know what, if
you just told me, you know what, my voice is
in trouble, I need some time you recuperate, it would
have been fine. But the fact that you claim you
were fine and then we get up there at the
at the jazz festival and sort of embarrass ourselves and
just have to sort of coast on the audience is like,
you know, just feelings of sentimentality towards us, that's something

(41:30):
totally different. So really was that he just felt he
couldn't trust them anymore, like I don't trust you when
you say you're fine. I don't trust you about anything,
which kind of now is almost like the true tailor
thing all like they both have this thing that they
blob Onto is the reason we don't trust one another. Uh.
Really heartbreaking for these two old friends. Yeah. I think
he said, I'm tired of all the drama. Is like

(41:51):
I just he just felt like our gar funcle was
a fountain of drama in his life. He didn't want
to deal with anymore. And so they have this parting
of ways, and there's radio silence for a little while
with these guys. But then our garf uncle takes a
shot at him in twenty can you because have you
read that interview? Like he did an interview with the Telegraph,
It's like amazing story to read. Oh, it's brutal. I

(42:14):
mean he takes it back and said, you know what,
I was friends with him. I felt bad for him.
He was a short, little nerdy kid, and by showing
him kindness I and this is a quote, created a
monster and and also accused him of one of many
times of suffering from a Napoleon complex that we talked
about earlier. But he also, you know, in his own way,

(42:35):
sort of laments the loss of their partnership, saying, like,
you know, the whole split is really strange. It's not
my choice. It's nothing that I would have done. I
want to open up about this. I don't want to
say I'm anti Paul Simon, and I love that the
world still loves Simon and garf uncle, but it's perverse
not to enjoy the glory and walk away from it.
It's crazy. He said he would have taken arrest from Paul,

(42:56):
but he would love to have gotten back together, but
that just wasn't going to happen. Yeah, and and and
Simon did his own interview with NPR where he made
it clear that he wanted nothing more to do with
our car funcle. Like there's a and you know, reading
his quote, I mean, it makes sense to me. Like
what he basically said was, you know, if I could

(43:16):
get together with him and it was fun, you know,
I would do it, you know, but there's really nothing
musically there to be left, you know, to explore, and
and it just seems like a drag, you know, like
when we get back together. And he said, you know,
I have a lot of musical areas that I like
to play in, so that will never happen again. That's
that I mean. I feel like this is also informed

(43:38):
by well by a couple of things one Simon had,
like a great creative renaissance. I feel like in the
last decade of his career, like in in the two
thousand tens, like he put out some really great records
I think, so beautiful. So what is actually like one
of my favorite Paul Simon solo records? I even like
Surprise and I was six, Yeah, surprised. I mean, You're

(44:02):
the One is a really great record that was nominated,
I think for the Album of the Year at the Grammys.
So and he also attained like a certain level of
hipness too, which was a little bit of a surprise.
But everyone from like Conor Oberst the Bright Eyes too,
you know, as a Canega Vampire Weekend. Uh. You know,
all these young indie musicians started talking about Paul Simon

(44:26):
and and really talking about Grace Land more than like
Simon and Garfuncle stuff. Um where he didn't really need
to go back to that bank anymore, you know, he
didn't need the capital that he would sometimes get from
that Simon and Garfuncle, well, like when his career was
at a down swing. And of course now you know,

(44:47):
Paul Simon retired supposedly, although we'll see what happens with that,
but he did his final performances in I heard him
qualify that by saying that he wasn't going to do
a tour again, but he may do like a one
off show in New York or something if the if
the moment strikes him. Uh so maybe there. I mean,
I don't do you think like he would ever call

(45:08):
up Artie and say, hey, let's sing one more time.
I mean, it just seems inconceivable to me. I mean,
that seemed like it would have been the moment because
his final show in Team was at Corona Park, which was, like,
you know, a bike ride away from where they grew up.
It would have been just the most perfect way to
put a cherry on on his his live career. But
he didn't. And I think around the same time, Aren't

(45:31):
called this the coldest period in their long friendship, and
he said there's a real sense that he might not
hear from him again. And he also said, you know what,
I don't know if I care, Oh, because of because
of True Taylor, the True Taylor thing. You know, I guess.
But now what's sixty years later, I mean he's probably
still piste off about True Taylor. Um, well, let's make

(45:55):
the pro case for each side. I think with Paul Simon,
it's a pretty obvious case. I like I said before, uh,
you know, in like the final decade or so of
his career, assuming that his career has ended, Paul Simon
really had a renaissance where a new generation of people
were embracing his music, and it seemed like his records,

(46:17):
especially Graceland, was it seemed like it was more influential
than ever. And I think it really speaks to how
Paul Simon. To me, it's like really rare artist who
was able to continually reinvent himself through every decade um
and and really like in the two thousand tents, like
I would take his records over anyone else from the
sixties generation, even like Bob Dylan, who I love. I

(46:40):
think the Paul Simon records from the two thousand tens
are better than Paul Simon's records from that time, or
Neil Young or I mean, Leonard Cohen put out some
great records, but I still like the Paul Simon records
a lot. And in the case of Simon and Garfuncle,
I mean, there's no question that he brought more to
the table musically, and you know, like I said earlier

(47:00):
that five years span in the late sixties where Simon
was just cranking out hits when he was inside in
the garf Uncle. I mean, those songs are still iconic
and as big as Graceland is and some of the
other Paul Simon solo records. I don't think that he
has a single song from his solo career that's as
big as Mrs Robinson or Bridge over Troubled Water or

(47:23):
the Sounds of Silence. Um. So yeah, I mean to me,
he's on the upper tier, the top tier of of
rock singer songwriters. Uh. And I don't think there's any
question about that. The thing that always blows my mind
too is thinking about, you know, his lyrically. I think
he's on par with Dylan. He's incredible, but he also

(47:45):
is such an innovator just the musical side of things too,
at the instrumental side, just toying with just being such
an influence in world music. From the Jamaican Sounds of
Mother and Childhood Union, that New Orleans stuff on Rheman
Simon Puerto Rican sounds, that freaking sounds. Uh. The Cape
Man soundtrack was incredible. I thought, like it really it's

(48:06):
it's rare to have somebody who excels at at the
words and the music. I think in the way that
Paul Simon does. Yeah, and he's he's a really good
singer too, which is funny because he wasn't the lead
singer really of Simon and Garfunkel, but like he could
have been. You feel like, I mean, don't you think,
oh yeah, I mean you listen to like one of
my favorite songs is uh, I know what I know?

(48:28):
And because he sounds like an actor on it, you know,
like he's really like giving a performance and putting so
much like personality in this delivery. I think Art you know,
I mean, kid say anything disparaging about his his instrument
it's it's amazing. But I think he's more self consciously
a singer, you know in quotes. But Paul is this
classic singer songwriter where he's sort of more he's better

(48:48):
at communicating the song's meaning, which, like you touched on earlier,
wasn't art strong suit at all, like it kind of
he was more more preoccupied with the melodies. Oh, I
love his vocals. I actually think I heard a great
analogy where where arts vocals in the Simon and Garf
Uncle songs where the frosting, but Simon's is the cake.

(49:08):
You know, if you have too much frosting, you get sick.
You can't you can't handle. You gotta have like the
cake there to to sort of balance it out. Which
that's kind of how I feel like. So I actually
the songs where Art takes the lead on Samocgarf Uncle tracks,
like for Emily, whoever I may find her. I they
aren't my favorite songs. I feel like I really need
them both, either be singing together or alternating verses. Right, Yeah,

(49:31):
I mean I think Bridge over Troubled Water is like
the exception to that. I think his vocal is, uh,
you can't knock his vocal on that song. It's a
beautiful vocal and he really kills it. But yeah, I
I tend to agree with that. That everything you said. However,
transitioning to the Art garf Uncle side, the pro art
the pro garf Uncle, um, it makes me think in

(49:54):
a way of our Mike Love and Brian Wilson episode,
because I think there's kind of a similar dynamic here,
just in terms of you know, Michael Love. I think
it's easy to disparage him and he does get diminished
a lot, you know, in comparison to Brian Wilson, who's
this great songwriter that was the creative mention of that band.
I think with Art Garfuncle, you know, he was the

(50:17):
front person of Simon and Garfuncle, and he was the
person who I think helped get those songs on the
radio because his voice was so beautiful and he gave
those songs a pop edge that they might not have
otherwise had. You know, like if you listen to some
of those early Simon and Garfuncle songs from that Wednesday

(50:38):
three Am record, or there's a record called the Paul
Simon Songbook that came out in sixty five when he
was in England and essentially kind of flirting with the
idea of being a solo artist. You know, he is
in the mold of like the singer songwriters of that time,
and he's writing great songs. But I don't know if
he was writing hits necessarily. And it seems Garfuncle was

(51:00):
a pivotal part of them being a big pop group,
don't you think. Oh yeah, I mean not only just
the vocals, but also when we were saying earlier, it's
arrangements too. I mean, because most of the songs in
the Paul Simon song Book, maybe like two thirds of
them end up surface. It probably even more end up
surfacing and Simon and Garfuncle songs, And I mean, it's
it's night and Day, it's still it's they the songs
as Paul does them on the Paul Simon song BUTOK,

(51:22):
almost sounds like demos to me. But there's so much
more enriched by that that that vocal harmony, you know.
I mean, it's just really I think that a lot
of if it was just Paul being a folk rock
artist alone, without Garfunkele in the mid sixties, you would
have had more songs like the Bright Green Pleasure Machine
and uh whatever, the one where he's talking about then

(51:42):
mcnamarat and John O'Hara and whatever, the one that's like
basically he's like pre rapping about all these like political
figures at the time. Not my favorite sabern orgar Funcle songs.
There's something like there's this kind of like wise guy
city kid vibe to them, which is cool, but it
never really worked for me, and so I it was
that that balance that made it work. All right, man,

(52:03):
We'll be right back with more rivals. It brings us
to the conclusion here when we talk about like why
these guys should be together, why they should be reconciled,
And I mean I was thinking about this. I feel like,

(52:25):
for a really long time, Simon and garfunk Call as
a group was bigger than Paul Simon in his solo career,
and maybe that's changed in recent years, just because it
does seem like Graceland is one of those albums that
younger generations rediscover and get into in a way that
they don't necessarily do with a lot of other, you know,

(52:46):
boomer era classics. Like it seems like now maybe for
a person who's under the age of thirty, that they
think of Graceland first when they think about Paul Simon.
But I feel like, for like most of his career
he was still in the shadow like of like a
lot of those big Simon and Garfunkel songs um Bridge

(53:07):
over Troubled Water and Sounds of Silence Again, I don't
I feel like when he plays live like those are
probably still the songs he plays last, because they're so
iconic and they were such big hits and they're still
you know, like on oldies radio all the time. And
again that speaks to the power that those two had
as a partnership. You know, we talked about Lennon and
McCartney being a great partnership within the Beatles, but in

(53:29):
terms of like just the performance duo, I mean, Simon
and Garfuncle, I feel like created a mold that other
people have tried to replicate but have never quite topped.
Like that still seems like the archetypical two person group.
You know, they were taking it from the Everly Brothers obviously,
but they took it to another place and made it
even bigger. Yeah, And you know it's sad how they

(53:51):
just they resented each other's gifts, you know. I mean,
even at the height of the sixties, Paul was seeing
a therapist something like four times a week because he
wasn't happy. You know. Paul wished he could be as
tall and handsome and as intelligent as Art and sing
as well as m and Art was threatened by the
fact that Paul was this genius songwriter who sort of
controlled the direction of the partnership. And I think Art
had a quote in the eighties were described it really

(54:12):
perfectly said, we were trying to make one perfect person together.
And I you know, I mean that's such a great
definition of a working partnership. Um, and yeah, it's just sad,
and I think and the two of them together to
I mean, not to sound like, you know, a total
boomer sympathizer, which I absolutely am, but I mean they're
split coincided, kind of like the Beatles, with the end

(54:33):
of the sixties and the death of a certain kind
of optimism. So I think that the pair of them
together have a kind of cultural power that just transcend
an ordinary band reunion. You know. It's like seeing them
together is like a happy ending. It's them kind of
making good on the promise of of old friends, you know,
sitting together like like bookends at seventy years old. You know,
I mean, two kids from the neighborhood who made it

(54:55):
and survived not only the mailstrom of the sixties, but
just the craziness of fame and just of growing older.
You know, they're still alive, they're still here, they're still
making music, and they're still friends. And you you, you
you want sell badly for the end that way, you know, Well,
I have to say that for me personally, I kind
of like the tension that exists between them, because I
think it makes them more interesting. You know, if it

(55:18):
was just at sixties kind of piece five with this group,
I think it would seem a little corny, like in
a way. They remind me of Chrisby Stills, Nash and Young,
who we are definitely gonna be talking about on this
show at some point. I think we're any like twenty
episodes of talk about that whole mess um. But it's

(55:38):
just such a fascinating contrast to me between like this
mellow music and then all of this anger and resentment
going on beneath the surface. It gives Simon and Garfunkle
an edge that I think they wouldn't have otherwise had,
but they need, and it's part of what draws me
back to their story all the time. It's like, Okay,

(55:59):
there's actually some real blood and guts behind those beautiful
harmonies in this band. Yeah. And it's like JAF Jeff
tweeting and j Ferrar too. You know, it's something that
that feels so relatable. Will have these these two school
friends that you kind of grew apart from, and it's painful,
you know, I mean, there's pain when you think of
all the shared history, but the fact that you really
aren't aren't the same people and aren't seeing together eye

(56:21):
to eye. Now, um, yeah, there's something painfully real about that,
just at a human scale, and we all have those
people in our lives and just with them, it's the
same deal, except they just have songs that have become
imprinted on generations of people. Well, I'm sure you and
I Jordan are not going to be like Seminata funcle
may people up on a park bench of our own,

(56:43):
sitting together like book ends, looking back on the hundreds
of feuds we've recapped. That's my hope, my friend, it's
a good one. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening.
We'll be back with more rivals next week. M Rivals

(57:05):
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