February 26, 2020 • 39 mins
The two pop queens started off as friends, sharing sweet birthday tweets and cat photos. Things got a little weird when they shared a man — John Mayer — but a case of pilfered backing dancers in 2014 made them, in Taylor’s words, “straight-up enemies.” Taylor threw the first punch by alluding to Perry’s misdeeds in a highly publicized interview. Then she dropped the track “Bad Blood” and its big budget Superhero Mean Girls video. The war of words continued in songs, social media and the press for years until the two hugged it out in Taylor’s 2019 video for “You Need to Calm Down.” A truce was declared but, to quote Katy, is it ever really over?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome to Rivals,
the show about music rivalries, beefs, feuds, long simmering resentments.
(00:20):
I'm your host Stephen America host Jordan's Today. I'm very
excited to talk about this rivalry because I feel like
this ravelry has in a way become unsung. Uh. It
was a big deal in the early part of the
two thousand tents. It's funny because when I wrote my
book Your Favorite Band Is Killing Me, I showed a
copy of the book to a famous music critic and
(00:41):
there's a chapter in the book about Kanye West and
Taylor Swift. And when he read the book, he was like,
why aren't you talking about Taylor Swift and Katie Perry,
which is what we're gonna talk about today, Because in
the mid two thousand tents, it seemed like that was
going to be the big ravelry involving Taylor Swift, that
Katie Perry was going to be her rival, not Kanye West.
And of course, now differently, we know differently. All we
(01:04):
talk about with Taylor Swift in terms of rivalries is
her and Kanye West, which is of course a great rivalry,
and I'm sure we'll talk about it on this show
at some point. But you know, I feel like a
lot of people are talking about that ravelry. The tenth
anniversary of the two thousand nine v A Maze was
was recently, and you know, there's a lot of retrospectives
about it. We're all talking about it. But the unsung
(01:24):
Ravelry with Taylor Swift with her and Katie Perry isn't
a way just as ridiculous as the Kanye West ravelry,
and if not more so, Like wouldn't you say, I mean,
this ravelry is delicious. Oh, it's so good. And also,
I mean, in terms of sparking their musical trajectory, I
think I had more of an influence than Kanye by
far on both of their musical output. That's a bold statement.
(01:45):
I like it. How I stand by that. I mean,
think about listen to Witness, listen to Reputation, back to back. Well,
I feel like, I feel like, if you're gonna throw
something out there, we gotta build the case. By the end.
Maybe people agree with you. They're like, I'm not sure
about it right now, but forty five minutes from now,
after we've laid it up, maybe they will say that
all right, let's dive into this battle. Katy Perry and
(02:10):
Taylor Swift, they start to intersect around two thous they
become friends and they started beefing. But I feel like
if you look at their careers before that point, there's
some interesting parallels. Like, for instance, let's let's talk about
Katy Perry's career. Now, she she's born like Taylor Swift.
She starts her career relatively early, like she gets a
g E. D. When she's fifteen, and she starts, you know,
(02:33):
pursuing a musical career, not in the secular world, the
commercial pop world, but as a Christian pop star. And
in two thousand one, she puts out her first record
under her birth name. Do you know what her birth
name is? Kate Hudson, Kate Hudson. Now there is another
Kate Hudson, very famous Kate, very famous Kate Hudson. And
you know, if we if we think back to two
(02:54):
thousand one, that was around the time that almost famous
comes out, and it just makes the more famous Kate
Hudson at least that point, it blows her up, makes
her a huge movie star. Now there's a woman coming
along called Katie Hudson trying to put out a Christian
pop record right after that. It's safe to say that
there was room for only one Kate Hudson in the
world in two thousand one. So Katie Hudson kind of
(03:16):
comes and goes. For the next six seven years, she's
trying to get a music career going. She signs with
def Jam in Colombia. She gets nowhere with those labels.
I believe that she recorded a song for the Traveling Sisterhood.
Wait am I getting Traveling Patch. She's on that soundtrack. Shockingly,
that does not turn her into a superstar. She is
(03:38):
struggling really, really hard. She finally signs another record deal
with Capitol Records in two thousand seven. The following year,
she puts out the song I Kissed a Girl. That's
her breakout hit. And this is an interesting thing. I
had forgotten about this part of Katie Perry's career. She
was on the Warp Tour in two eight Do you
remember that? That's right, Yeah, I forgot about that. The
(03:59):
Warp Tour, of course, is the traveling tour that's associated
with like pop punk bands. You know, you don't really
think of Katie Pry Charlotte Good Charlotte, you know gold Finger.
I don't like all those, like all those like nineties
band pop punk bands or SKA bands. And Katy Perry's
in that world. She's kind of like a Charlie xc
X maybe of that era, kind of like the she's
(04:21):
like a pop star, but she's kind of like an
underground pop star. And then, of course, in two thousand ten,
things completely changed for her. She puts out their record
Teenage Dream, which is one of the sort of big
blockbuster pop records of this decade some would say one
of the best pop records, would say, of modern times.
And it really turns her into the Katy Perry that
(04:43):
we all know and love today. Like that is sort
of Katy Perry. I guess that might be like Katy
Perry three point out. At that point, She's had many
career reboots, but that is the Katy Perry that sticks.
Let's go back again. We have Taylor Swift. Now, while
Katy Perry is trying to get her career going, Taylor
Swift is becoming one of the biggest country stars pretty
(05:05):
much right off from her first record, which comes out
in two thousand and six, and I don't know, do
you know much about like Taylor Swift's like early career,
Like she you know, her dad was like a stockbroker
and like Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, and then went down to Nashville
to uh to try to a better position. Right, Yeah,
And apparently her dad actually bought part ownership of Big
(05:26):
Machine Records, which was like her original record label. So,
like Taylor Swift is sort of like the prototypical child
star at this point, Like she's a talented kid, she's
a cute kid. Her parents are behind her career. And
I think it's safe to say that this paid off
big time in the case of Taylor Swift, because in
two thousand and six, she puts out her first record.
(05:46):
It's a self titled record. She either wrote or co
wrote all the songs on the album, and that record
is on the Billboard charts for like a hundred and
fifty weeks after that becomes a huge hit, subsequently sells
in the neighborhood of about eight million copies. From there,
she is on the way to becoming the biggest pop
(06:06):
star of the early twenty one century. Two thousand eight,
she puts out Fearless. In two thousand ten, she puts
out speak. Now, this is around the time the Teenage
Dream comes out, and she's already making inroads from being
a huge country star at this point to being a
big pop star. And in two thousand ten, Katie Perry
is also a huge pop star. So now these two
(06:27):
start being at the same award shows together, and this
is like around the time they start becoming friends, right right, Yeah,
they started off friendly. I mean, Taylor tweeted at her
one saying how much she loved the Waking Up in
Vegas video, and Katie responded saying, you know, Taylor was
sweet as pie and kind of jokingly talked about doing
a song together. Have you seen that? I don't remember
that video? Wake Me Up in Vegas? Is that? What
(06:48):
album is that? I think that's one of the boys. Actually,
now I'm one of the boys, the two I believe,
So I'm I'm sure of tweets about that, But my
Perry null kind of peaks with Teenage Dreams, so like
before and after, I'm a little sketch here. So anyway,
Taylor was already a stand when she did her Fearless tour,
(07:10):
and when it hit l A, she invited Katie to
perform Hot and Cold together. I mean they were relatively close. U.
Katie gave an interview where she said that when they
hung out one of the Grammy Awards, she got locks
of hair from Taylor and Miley and wrapped them up
in little bows and carried them around in her purse.
Totally normal, which is completely not voodoo behavior at all.
I think that I think that's very healthy and it
(07:31):
doesn't treat me out at least, not at all. And
I'm absolutely not going to check eBay later to see
if if that's where they wound up. But no, they were.
They were close and friendly for a while. I think
they attended to each other's birthdays and things like that,
and everything seemed fine in Katie Taylor world until Taylor
prepared to release ninety nine in the fall of You
(07:52):
have a Rolling Stone interview, and she talked about at
the time the song was unreleased, but a song on
the album called bad Blood, and she didn't mention by name,
but you said that the song was about one another
woman in music who quote did something so horrible that
it ended their friendship for good. And she said things like,
for years, I was never sure if we were friends
or not who come up to me at award shows
and say something and walk away, And I think, are
(08:13):
we friends? Or does she just give me the harshest
insult in my life? And then she, throughout the course
of the interview said that she for her Red Tour,
I believe got dancers from that had historically worked with
Katie Perry on her Teenage Dream Tour. And then before
the Red Tour was over, um, when Katie released prism
In basically called up these three dancers if you had
(08:35):
a relationship with and said, hey, do you want to
come out in the road with me for the prism tour?
For Prismatic I forget what it was called. And uh,
if you know, you're welcome, but you have to leave
the Taylor's Tour early. So let's pause for a second.
You know, two thousand twelve is when Red comes out.
The Taylor Swift records, your favorite Taylor Swift record, That
is my favorite. That is a bold I am very
it's not bold. It's not bold. It's not bold if
(08:57):
you have good taste, ladies and gentlemen. It is obviously
the let's call it the watershed of Taylor Swift's career.
She puts it out in two thousand twelve. It has
a little bit of country in it, and it has
a little bit of pop. Bringing it all back home
of exactly. It's the bringing it all back home of
the Taylor Swift career. It's the exile in Main Street
of Taylor Swift's career. Doing a little bit of everything
on that album and doing everything very well. So she's
(09:19):
gonna be doing this blockbuster tour in support of it,
and again she's she's going into the pop world. So
she needs backup dancers. You cannot be a pop star
if you do not have a crew of backup dancers
behind you, a fleet of failing a fleet. And yeah,
so she tried to hire three dancers from Katie Perry
and then, of course Katie Perry. She puts out her
(09:40):
record Prism in two thirteen, which, again, you know, the
Katie cats out there might disagree with this. I think
it's safe to say that Prism is sort of the
beginning of her decline as a pop star. Teenage Dream
is a peak. Prism is like when she's starting to
sort of be a little bit more introspective, a little
less sort of colorful and brash and over the top,
which kind of defines her teenage dream era. She's trying
(10:03):
to be like a little more sort of singer songwriter,
not really working for Katie Perry. But so she and
she took these dancers back right right. And I don't
think it was done. I mean, I have no idea,
don't know these people, but I don't think it was
done in a malicious way. I think it was, yeah,
you want to come back and work with me like
he did a couple of years ago. We can speculate, Okay,
what do you say, speculate. I really, I genuinely don't
(10:25):
think it was a malicious way. I think they had
a prior relationship and they got along well with her
and said, you know, you want to come back on
my next tour. Great, but you're gonna have to leave
the Red Tour a little early. I forget how much earlier.
But takes us the wrong way, and this is invading
the sedate and land. This is this is bad. You
were very you were removing a brick from my jinga
(10:46):
of of greatness. Here, my tour is going to fall
apart because you've removed these three dancers. So it's understood
that this is sort of like the beginning of their feud,
although there is an alternate theory here where the John
Mayor theory chaos agent, which John Mayor is a chaos agent,
and the relationship between Taylor Swift and Katie Perry, because
(11:07):
we all know that John Mayer and Taylor Swift appeared
to have some sort of relationship circa in the February
of that of two thousand ten. I think it was
very but it's major enough for Taylor Swift to write
a song called Dear John's Years on the third Taylor
Swift record Speak Now. I don't know if she ever
officially confirmed that's about John Mayer, but it's like called
(11:30):
Dear John. We know John Mayor's a dog. Has she
ever confirmed that, I don't think. I don't think she has,
so I find it hard to believe that there wasn't
at least some role that he played in at least
turning maybe Katie Perry in a negative direction towards Taylor Swift.
That's possible. I mean, Taylor always went on our way
to say that their few it was never about a guy,
(11:51):
never about a guy. It was business. It was about
this this tour dancer business. Uh, which and I like
that that's supposed to be the more reasonable explain nation
that it's about Uh, you know, it's not. It's not
about her boyfriend. It's about these dancers, you know, like
because that's more of a career that is fighting over well,
you know, I mean that that's such a reductive way
(12:12):
to fighting well. And and to be clear, I'm not
saying that, um, they were fighting over John Mayer. I
don't think Taylor Swift was interested in John Mayer. I'm
just saying that from Katie Perry's perspective. You know, her
boyfriend is John Mayer, and Taylor Swift wrote a song
that humiliated John Mayer publicly. You think that at least subconsciously,
(12:33):
that would maybe affect her opinion of Taylor Swift, Like
if you know, she's not a pop star, she's like
an ex who has like written a really mean Facebook
post about the man that you love. Except it's like
a hit song that has sold on an album that's
sold like, you know, ten million copies. So anyway, I'm
just floating that out there. I find it hard to
believe that that that that didn't have at least some
(12:54):
role to play in this whole very very interesting theory,
very compelling theory. All right, we'll right back with more rivals.
(13:15):
It goes beyond dancers, right, I mean, there's other things
that happened after that. Well, that was sort of the
point when it all became public. And then of course
she released bad Blood the song, and then um a
few months later I think it was after the Billboard
Music Awards and made to release the video which she
basically has her entire crew as this. You know, I
think she plays an assassin called Catastrophe I think is
(13:37):
the character that the Taylor plays in it, and she
has her her squad all act as her. You know.
It's almost like it's almost like a Marvel cast or something.
It is a very impressive video the Justice League, right,
and Selena Gomez, who was at least at the time
one of her best friends, plays the villain in the video,
and it's all very uh superhero you know, action movie,
(13:58):
good guy, bad guy kind of thing. And can't remember
the video precisely, I mean, is it Are there any
like hints that she's talking about Katy Perry at all?
Are there like any Kitty Perry? Not one, I don't think.
But later and we'll get to that later with everything
on reputation. But yeah, and then it got a lot
more blatant. But also in the summer of was the
whole VMA's controversy that kind of just was It seemed
(14:19):
like a giant misunderstanding. Nicki Minaj was really disappointed that
her Antacono video didn't get nominated for Video of the
Year category, and she tweeted, Uh, if your video celebrates
women with very slim bodies, you will be nominated for
Video of the Year. Taylor viewed this as a direct
attack on her, and she wrote back and tweeted back
at her, have done nothing but love and support you.
(14:40):
It's unlike you to put women against each other. Maybe
one of the men took your slot and it started
this whole kind of awkward back and forth. Katie weighs
in on Twitter also because everything now and when the tens,
every feud goes to Twitter immediately. Uh said that she
found it quote ironic that Swift would cite the pit
w and against each other argument when her own song
(15:01):
was literally about women fighting, which is a fair point,
fair point point for Katy Perry on that one. I
gotta say, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw
this out here right now that I'm leaning towards Katy
Perry and this I'm very sympathetic Katy Perry. I'm just
throwing that just to throw that out there to the
listeners that anything I say after this just know that
I'm probably a little bit biased. So that will affect
(15:23):
my commentary on this controversy. I will say, and I
should have said this at the start of the episode.
I um I I recently one of my tweets about
Taylor Swift recently went semi viral in like five minutes
after I posted it. So I've experienced the power of
the Swifties firsthand a week or two ago, and it
was both awesome and terrifying. So I would like to
(15:44):
say to all the Swifties, my ear drums are not
fit to receive her musical gifts. Taylor Swift is a
better person than me. Well, now you're gonna stick the
Katie Cats on you, though you're right Cats they don't
play either. So but I think Taylor and Nicki Murna.
I believe that they reconciled, at least briefly performed on
stage at Um at the VMA's that year. Actually they did.
(16:06):
I think it was. I think it was Bad Blood.
Maybe I'm wrong. They had some kind of medley Taylor
and UH and Nikki performed together. It's almost as if
everyone in pop music is an opportunist and they will
shift wilts at the drop of a hat. I'm just
saying maybe that's the case. I don't know, I'm not
Some people might say that. But there were other little
(16:26):
things that went down that summer. I guess when Taylor
was on tour and she performed Bad Blood, they had
one of her dancers dressed as a shark, which was
obviously after Katie Perry's famous left shark dancer Spawl, which
is grow oh it's so good, and then why why why?
But wait, Katie, what's the point of that summer? Maybe
it was that fall Katie announced that she was releasing
a perfume called mad Love, a lyric of course from
(16:51):
Bad Blood. Um. But then it really all kind of
boiled over again in the summer when Taylor and Calvin
Harris were breaking up, and in the midst of their
breakup it got kind of messy. Calvin Harrison had written
and produced a song for Rihanna is uh, this is
what you came for, and it became known that Taylor
had co written it under the name I can't even
(17:13):
say it Nils Joe Bird. It's yeah, like it's like
Calvin Harrison, the Swedish chef, teamed up to do this
song for Rihanna. But but Calvin thought that Taylor's side
maliciously leaked this information and he started tweeting all this stuff,
which he then deleted. Um, he found it hurtful to
me at this point that Taylor and her team would
go so far, you know, making him look bad. And
(17:36):
then um, he said, I know you're off tour and
you need someone new to try and bully like Katie
et cetera. But I'm not that guy. Sorry, I won't
allow it. And uh, Katie just responded with a jeff
of Hillary Clinton shrugging, which is great, and then she
also retweeted her own tweet from May that said time
the ultimate truth teller. See, I'm just picturing Katie Perry
(17:58):
sitting in her house and like l a and just
like having gifts, candy all around her, kenye all around her,
just having gifts like locked and loaded, ready to go
get drafted. It's like, Okay, I know some bullshit's gonna
arise with Taylor Swift at some point, but like she
had like a hundred gifts that she was like market
testing with her friends, like, you know, should I do
the Hilly Clinton? Like what you do? Like shrug? Yeah,
(18:21):
it was like it was Hillary I want to debate shrugging.
I think I should I do a Hilly Clinton gift?
Should I do? You know Michael Jackson eating popcorn on
the front? That's a classic, right And they said no, no, no,
definitely the Hillary Clinton shrugging. That is the way to go. So,
I mean, was that it or it kept going? I
mean and later for for Katie's birthday that fall, she
(18:42):
went to a Kanye West show and uh instagram live
her singing along to uh to famous verse, Uh you
know I made that bitch famous. She she's get on
her own face when Kanye on the stage is singing that.
She's dancing along to it all happy. I don't remember
that part. Now that this gets, this gets really seems
a little. The other things are kind of funny. Now
(19:03):
we're getting like definitely that video, Yeah, that that was
wrong on every level. Poke in the bear Man and
then also, I guess a fan tweeted at her and said,
will you collaborate with Taylor Swift? And she said if
she says sorry, sure for a while. This is like
pretty one sided. I feel like Taylor Swift, Well, she
did the video from reputation, Look what you made Me do? Yes?
No that I have a lot to say about that.
(19:23):
But before that was Katie's album Witness came out and
May Swish Wish Yes, I mean basically a major talking
point of her entire you know, press cycle for for
Witness was just talking about this feud. I mean, she
was did an interview with Entertainment Weekly the may that
it came out. You can't mistake kindness for weakness, and
(19:45):
don't come for me anyone, anyone, anyone, anyone. And that's
not to any one person, And don't quote me that
it is because it's not. It's not about that. Honestly,
when women come together and they decided to unite, this
world is going to be a better place, period, end
of story. But let me say this, every thing has
a reaction or a consequence, So don't forget about that, okay, honey,
Which is kind of terrifying. Then she drops Swish Swish,
(20:08):
which has the you know, don't come at me mantra
all through it. Uh, it's clearly directed at all of
her haters, seemingly obviously at Taylor. Don't you come for me? No,
not today, You're calculated. I've got your number because you're
a joke and I'm a courtside killer queen, which is
which is like I'm looking at hello, cool ja line.
That's a great and uh, you know, and then of
(20:32):
course there was a come apt me with what like
what a music video? So then you know, in case
there was you know, any missing understanding about who this
was about. Uh, Nicki Minaj, Taylor's one time foe did
a guest verse on it, and um. The artwork for
(20:52):
the single features a Katie's hand clutching receipt for Karma
Coffee and tea. So this this opens the floodgates. She
goes on James Cordon. James asks if there's you know
what the deal is between Katie and Taylor, and she says, honestly,
you know, it's true. There is a situation. Uh, she
(21:12):
started it and it's time for her to finish it.
Almost her exact words again demanding an apology, and then
uh in Enemy she said, I'm not Buddha. Things irritate me,
which is pretty amazed. I think she's right and she
is not Buddha. Is a great argument there. You're not
(21:32):
gonna you can't disprove that one. The whole press cycle
for that it got really she opened up a lot,
which on one hand, you know, I applaud I mean
she did that like I think it was a forty
eight hour of uh YouTube live stream thing where she
was like ranking like the boyfriends that she's had, like sexually.
I think that was part of think that was part
of it. Yeah. Yeah, and that press cycle one of
(21:54):
the great press cycles of the two thousand tens for
for that album is kind of a disaster. What is
didn't I mean, just the stats beared out didn't do well.
It was her only album that didn't go past She
did that like weird SNL and appearance with like that
kid like Flossy flossing that. Yeah, and uh, it just
seemed like I'm just gonna throw everything against the wall
(22:16):
to try to go viral with this album. I'm gonna
get YouTube stars in here, I'm gonna be you know,
I'm doing the forty eight hour like a live feed thing.
I'm just grasping at straws at this point. And the
forty eight hour feed thing was when she give an
interview with Ariana Huffington and she basically said, you know,
I I forget her exact words, but something like, I
actually know here they are. I love her and I
(22:37):
want the best for her, she said. Swift, Yes, Katie
said that about Taylor Swift. Taylor, after all the press
in this album cycle responded by the day that Witness
was due to be released. Uh, she put all of
her songs back on Spotify, which and she famously took
them off a few years before View too, you know,
disagreement about Spotify's payment practices, classic ups staging move, yes,
(23:01):
which was pretty great. I mean that's that. That is
a if you host a podcast about music rivalries, gift
from Heaven. Oh yeah, that kind of pettiness. You know,
you can't you can't hope for more than that. If
you're just a decent human being, you might go, I
don't know about that tailor your karma receipt with the
(23:21):
what was it with the coffee and the one that
was coffee and tea, Karma coffee and tea? Was that
a receipt? Man? It just went up with that move, Taylor. Uh.
And then she puts up the video what You Made
Me Do? Sent swift ease into you know, beautiful mind
style searching through it for Easter eggs. Now, something I
should have mentioned earlier. When the Rolling Stone interview hit,
(23:42):
the tailor sort of first hinted out there being something
off between between her and Katie. Uh. The day that
I hit, Katie tweeted, be aware of Regina George in
sheep's clothes and Regina George being the antagonist the bully
in uh in Mean Girls? Is that Rachel McAdam. Yeah,
brilliant portrayal. Oh incredible. Um, Rachel McAdams doesn't love Rachel
(24:06):
McAdams in that movie. Oh yeah, I mean incredible, amazing
in every movie. So Taylor, in the fall of after
all the witness dust has settled, puts out look what
you Made Me Do? The um the beat to it.
Fans have observed, I can't confirm whether or not this
is actually true. Uh sounds remarkably like it may actually
(24:28):
be sample. I think it just sounds like, Uh. The
Peaches song Operate, which is featured in Mean Girls in
the scene when Regina George played by Rachel McAdams is
getting dressed for Halloween and so that beat that is,
you know, one of the main Regina George scenes in
Mean Girls is the you know, backing beat to Taylor's
revenge song that would You Made Me Do? I love
(24:49):
this because I think it's acknowledged by most people that
that is like one of the worst Taylor Swift singles
of all time, and like it kind of screwed that
album over because people were so turned off by that.
But I love the Taylor Swift said, you know what,
I don't care. I'm still gonna like reference this song
from a movie that my arch rival referenced in a
(25:10):
It was a tweet because that is more important to
me than putting out a single that would actually set
up my album in a better way. And of course,
you know, Mean Girls had the burn Book in it.
And then there's the lyric I got a list of
names and juice isn't read underlined. I mean it's I mean,
I mean fans, I should I should you know, reiterate
that these are all things that fans have been saying.
I I have no I'm just I'm just asking questions.
(25:30):
I'm just it's all true. All the fans are right.
But and then of course, you know, walked me out
and threw a feast is another line which and Katie
had a song on Witness Bon Appetite. Thought to me
that the feast was in reference to that. I love
the steep announcis. Oh no, there's I mean, there's so
many her fans are incredible with all that. I mean,
you know, Taylor talks about that all the time about
her fans have these incredible theories. That makes all the
(25:51):
Paul's Dead stuff look like, you know, boring compared to this.
And then so the video for Look What You Made
Me Do features Taylor dressed remarkably lie Katie. I can't
say she's dressed as Katy. It looks remarkably like Katie's
worried that like you're gonna get sued if you because
like like the Taylor Swift lawyers or the Katie Perry
lawyers are gonna descend I have to couch our language. Allegedly,
(26:12):
she's extremely petty in this video. I work for People magazine.
This is this is part of my this has been
grained into me. Some might say that she was insane,
you know, but we're not saying it's some might she
was off for saying. But in the video, Taylor's dressed
looking remarkably like Katie at that time, the short blonde hair,
(26:32):
and she's in a car crash, which seems to be
a reference to uh, Witness being a car crashing album
while Taylor is having her own car crash. Because again
this is like, I mean, I actually like Reputation, but like,
I think it's at least a flawed I'm not gonna
say masterpiece, but it's a flawed sort of polarizing record, right.
(26:53):
And when this gets back to what I was saying
in the beginning the episode, where I think, you know,
Witness and Reputation both released in twenty seven teen, but
they both take on these characters of sort of you
know villains and tough talking villains, which is not my
interpretation who they are. And I think that it confused people.
I don't think people were looking for that. I won't
say that people didn't like that, but I don't think
(27:14):
people were looking for that. And I think that it
was inspired by one another. And I think for you
know that year, a lot of what they did was
related to that back and forth, and and and they
leaned further into those characters. We're going to take a
quick break to get a word from our sponsor before
we get two more rivals. That's kind of the beginning
(27:42):
of the end of this theory, right, you know, my
reputation outsold witnessed by a huge magnitude. Well, and that
relates to another theory I have about this feud, because
I'll share in a minute, But like, I think we
should just say wrap up the feud. How did you?
Because it got resolved in teen May. She kicks off.
Taylor kicks off her reputation Asian tour, and she receives
a literal olive branch from Katie Perry, which has a note.
(28:06):
Taylor Instagram story this and you can read a little
bit of a note says hey, old friend, I've been
doing some reflecting on past miss communications and the feelings
between us. I really want to clear the air. Dot
dot dot And you can't read the rest. And and
Taylor was apparently really really happy by this. Apparently Katie's
team I saw some interview in the Sun I think
where Katie's team was kind of annoyed that that she
(28:28):
instagram story this because allegedly they felt that it made
her look like she was taking responsibility for the feud,
and because Katie Perry's in the media saying no Taylor
Swift test to apologize to me and the banning apologies
for years, and yet she's the new Caves exactly. I
mean that that's what it crawls back to Taylor, but
it did. It went on effectively ended the feud. And
(28:49):
then in in this spring, uh, Katie's asked on all
these red carpets about whether or not they collaborate again.
She said, yeah, you know, things are getting better between us,
cookies or something right, And then in June, um, I
think Katie tweeted a picture of cookies that said piece
at Last on it and added Taylor Swift on it,
and then Taylor wrote a comment with thirteen heart emojs.
(29:10):
You know Taylor's big numbers, thirteen beautiful. And then within
days they had the Taylor's you need to Calm Down
video where the big reveal at the end. You know
it's a whole song about you know, preaching tolerance and unity.
Wait a second, so like they just randomly tweeted this
photo of cookies, and then a few days later, there's
like a promo for a video, No, not a promo
v video. Wow, So what a coincidence? Like it's Tims
(29:32):
really well yeah, you know, okay, so this ties into
my theory here, and this is an extremely cynical take.
What if this is all bullshit? Maybe the fact that
they now have reconciled is related to the fact that
Katie Perry, well, all due respect to the legacy of
Katie Perry, is not quite the pop star that she
was when this feud was really at its red hot
(29:52):
most fury, like in the early two thousand tents, and
that maybe it's more advantageous for Taylor Swift to say,
reignite a feud with Kanye West, who is still a
very famous celebrity. Do you think at all that this
just might be a trumped up thing and that they
really didn't ever have like a serious conflict. I I mean,
I don't. This is the extremely cynical cynical here, you know.
(30:15):
And I'm not even like I'm not attacking them by
saying this. I'm saying they're savvy. If it was an experiment,
and if this was a you know, all trumped up
to go in, you know, to take a left turn
musically and creatively. Then I think you could argue that
it was a failed experiment because I think that, you know,
I mean, Witness was I think Katie's first album that
didn't go platinum and reputation, although a blockbuster and sold
(30:39):
a lot relatively speaking, didn't sell the same amount as
nine and all the ones before that. And I think,
you know, a lot of their views. I'm reading for Lover,
which is you know, her her latest album, great album.
A lot of people are saying it is, you know,
a return to form. And I think some of Katie's
recent music too, if he has that new song never
Really Over, which seems a lot more like for is
(31:00):
an era, maybe not a teenage dream era, but that
it seems like, Okay, we went down this dark path
um and now we're back. This is what I'm saying though,
because they abandoned that because it didn't work. So now
we're gonna we're gonna go back to be nice you know,
pop stars, and we're not gonna have conflict anymore, because
that seems to be what people want. I'm telling you, man,
question it is a this is Me. I'm like that,
(31:21):
you know, if we're gonna do memes, you know, Like,
I'm like that dude from It's Always Sunny, String The String,
I'm like that guy right now. Now I got tinfoil
hat on, don't worry. Okay. So let's say you're going
to make an argument in favor of Katy Perry. You're
on the Katie Cats side against Taylor Swift. Like, what
would be the pro Katie Perry argument? I mean, really,
(31:42):
the first thing I would think of is is Teenage Dream.
I mean that album it is is aside from Michael
Jackson's Bad, is the only album that has five number
one singles on Its really incredible, especially for you know,
I mean that that's an amazing achievement and that album.
Maybe it's personal. Maybe I just it came out the
year after I graduated college, and uh, you know, like
(32:04):
any good millennial graduated in the recession knowing any jobs.
So we all moved back home and we're all living
with their parents. A bunch of me and my friends
were living in the same house that we were in
five years before in high school. That song came out
thinking about being teenagers. But we weren't teenagers, were early twenties,
but no jobs. Yeah, this is a dark context. I
feel like if if wonder if the wonder Use TV
(32:25):
show We're made you know for the for instead of
were made in two thousand ten for two thousand and ten,
I think that this song would be included in it.
I think that there's a lot of emotion in that
song wrapped up at least like me would be like
the ironic soundtrack of like Millennials, like contemplating crushing debt
and the like collapsing environment. It's like like the Last
(32:45):
Friday and and it's like, you know, like you're showing
you like looking at your bills. Well, like this really
happy pop music. The title track, I mean, teenage Dream.
I mean to me, it was just like instant nostalgia
for like, you know, teenage years that were not that
far earlier but felt so far removed. And I mean
I that that song hit me. That song, you know
hit me personally. I don't want to speak for for
(33:06):
you know, anyone else, but I I love that that album,
you know, unabashedly it's one of my favorite albums of
all time. I think it's an incredible pop album. It's
a great record, And that would be my argument for
her too, is that I feel like there was a
period of time where she was sort of the most
fun pop star. So I agree. I think her legacy
is that record, and it kind of cements her in
(33:27):
pop history. Whenever people talk about pop music from that era,
just kind of signifies that record. And it would be
the ironic soundtrack of two thousand ten, which, uh, you know,
it was kind of a dark year. You know, you
have the tea party starting to emerge at that time,
and you have the economy is coming back, but it's
still kind of sluggish, and yet we're all listening to
(33:49):
this infectious pop record. Um, if you're gonna make the
pro Taylor Swift case, what would be the crux of
that case? I mean I started looking up for her,
you know, record achievements and stuff, and I just got
bored and just I mean it's just just so many.
I mean, it's you know, I I don't think that
you've had a female pop star who has taken such
(34:10):
incredible ownership of her career and her art and her
image at that high level for that sustained period. I mean,
you had, you know, Gaga did it for a while,
I think, and then I started drop off a bit.
I think, you know, Taylor could say, Beyonce and Madonna
I think are the ones I can think of that
that did it for that long that well. I remember
during the reputation era, you started seeing think pieces being
(34:33):
written about Taylor Swift being on her way out because
there was this generation of sort of Internet native pop
stars talk stars, yeah, or you know, even like like
little NASAs someone like that who's like not part of
the sort of pop machinery, who didn't come up through
the ranks the way that someone like Taylor Swift did,
who kind of comes out of nowhere and has this
(34:54):
humongous song that is on the charts forever. Um, there
was this idea, I think that Taylor Swift was kind
of like a passe type pop star and now we're
going to have Internet native pop stars that we're gonna
take over, and which is not to say that that's
not happening, but it is I think still true that
Taylor Swift is like a dominant pop star and has
been for you know, going on almost fifteen years at
(35:16):
this point. So the case for hers that she is
like one of the great all time pop stars. And
in a way, Katy Perry was sort of like a
bug that bounced off her windshield for like a couple
of years. That sounds worse than I mean it to say,
that's not We're all bugs off of windshields. Compared to
Taylor Swift, Okay, she's a She's like a multinational corporation
(35:38):
at this point as a as a as a pop star.
I mean, I think about Taylor. I think it's so
interesting too, is the connection that she she has built
with her fan base. I mean, her Lover Special Edition
version like literally has pages from her diary. I mean,
I feel like the connection that she makes with them,
and really I just totally normal by the way. Well, no,
I feel like I feel like I don't know what
Katie Perry is. I know, for all of her songs
(35:59):
that are introspective and and try to present that that
kind of more, you know, inward looking side of her,
I feel like I don't really know her in the
same way. Well, I think with Taylor Swift, she's presenting
a version of herself even in those diary pages. I mean,
Katy Perry did again put herself on camera for like
forty eight hours, which I think my mind blowing thing.
(36:19):
I mean I should feel like I know her so well,
but I for some reason I don't. I mean, granted, yes,
you're right. I mean whatever Taylor's present think could totally
be skewed as you know, a fiction, but I was
not even a fiction. It's just like a it's a
version of herself. I would never I mean, I think
with all these people, you can ever presume to know
who they really are. I mean, there's always some sort
of subterfuge going on which there should be got to
(36:41):
protect some part of yourself from public consumption. I would
hope in terms of like just them being together, I
guess what is the case for them sort of coexisting
peacefully in the world. I mean the easy answer is
good lord, I mean, we don't need to pay more
women against each other. That's kind of the the my
go to answer for that. Um, you know, at this point,
I feel like Katy Perry has her lane. I always
(37:03):
love her big hits, but like Taylor Swift is like
in another league in terms of stardom, in terms of
her career, Like she doesn't need to be, you know,
driving the dump truck over like the small car, you
know what I mean. I mean, because she really is
like so much. She's such an imperial I mean, Kanye
West is. I think people talk about that rivalry still
(37:24):
because he is comparable to her in terms of celebrity,
not in terms of his chart success artistry and artistry
of course. I mean we're setting artistry aside here for
a second, because well, I'm just saying that in terms
of like these sorts of discussions, like the kind of
records you put out. I don't know how much that
really played. I'm talking about like their celebrity anyway. I
think that's why people still remember that. So to me,
(37:44):
this just kind of lives on as like a colorful
chapter in both of their careers that was ultimately harmless.
As much as they dug in after each other, it
didn't seem like they were ever really like over the
top or like crossing the line in a way that
you could say about the Kanye West or Swift. Oh yeah,
that seemed to be crossing the line blood um and
(38:05):
like the Kim Kardashian voicemails and all that stuff. But
we can save that for another episode, because that is
another rich chapter. The rich vein of hate in the
history of music. Rivalries. Jordan's always a pleasure rivalries, and
it's always pleasure talking all of you at home listening,
or at the gym or wherever you might be, or
in your car or on the subway at the store
(38:28):
with your karma and coffee and tea received looking to
take some karma back to the store. Um, thanks again
for listening. We will talk to you all next week.
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive
(38:48):
producers are Shawn Titone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers
are Taylor T. Cooin and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's roun
Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard,
please subscribe and leave us a review from more podcast
from Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or ever you listen to your favorite shows. H
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome to Rivals,
the show about music rivalries, beefs, feuds, long simmering resentments.
(00:20):
I'm your host Stephen America host Jordan's Today. I'm very
excited to talk about this rivalry because I feel like
this ravelry has in a way become unsung. Uh. It
was a big deal in the early part of the
two thousand tents. It's funny because when I wrote my
book Your Favorite Band Is Killing Me, I showed a
copy of the book to a famous music critic and
(00:41):
there's a chapter in the book about Kanye West and
Taylor Swift. And when he read the book, he was like,
why aren't you talking about Taylor Swift and Katie Perry,
which is what we're gonna talk about today, Because in
the mid two thousand tents, it seemed like that was
going to be the big ravelry involving Taylor Swift, that
Katie Perry was going to be her rival, not Kanye West.
And of course, now differently, we know differently. All we
(01:04):
talk about with Taylor Swift in terms of rivalries is
her and Kanye West, which is of course a great rivalry,
and I'm sure we'll talk about it on this show
at some point. But you know, I feel like a
lot of people are talking about that ravelry. The tenth
anniversary of the two thousand nine v A Maze was
was recently, and you know, there's a lot of retrospectives
about it. We're all talking about it. But the unsung
(01:24):
Ravelry with Taylor Swift with her and Katie Perry isn't
a way just as ridiculous as the Kanye West ravelry,
and if not more so, Like wouldn't you say, I mean,
this ravelry is delicious. Oh, it's so good. And also,
I mean, in terms of sparking their musical trajectory, I
think I had more of an influence than Kanye by
far on both of their musical output. That's a bold statement.
(01:45):
I like it. How I stand by that. I mean,
think about listen to Witness, listen to Reputation, back to back. Well,
I feel like, I feel like, if you're gonna throw
something out there, we gotta build the case. By the end.
Maybe people agree with you. They're like, I'm not sure
about it right now, but forty five minutes from now,
after we've laid it up, maybe they will say that
all right, let's dive into this battle. Katy Perry and
(02:10):
Taylor Swift, they start to intersect around two thous they
become friends and they started beefing. But I feel like
if you look at their careers before that point, there's
some interesting parallels. Like, for instance, let's let's talk about
Katy Perry's career. Now, she she's born like Taylor Swift.
She starts her career relatively early, like she gets a
g E. D. When she's fifteen, and she starts, you know,
(02:33):
pursuing a musical career, not in the secular world, the
commercial pop world, but as a Christian pop star. And
in two thousand one, she puts out her first record
under her birth name. Do you know what her birth
name is? Kate Hudson, Kate Hudson. Now there is another
Kate Hudson, very famous Kate, very famous Kate Hudson. And
you know, if we if we think back to two
(02:54):
thousand one, that was around the time that almost famous
comes out, and it just makes the more famous Kate
Hudson at least that point, it blows her up, makes
her a huge movie star. Now there's a woman coming
along called Katie Hudson trying to put out a Christian
pop record right after that. It's safe to say that
there was room for only one Kate Hudson in the
world in two thousand one. So Katie Hudson kind of
(03:16):
comes and goes. For the next six seven years, she's
trying to get a music career going. She signs with
def Jam in Colombia. She gets nowhere with those labels.
I believe that she recorded a song for the Traveling Sisterhood.
Wait am I getting Traveling Patch. She's on that soundtrack. Shockingly,
that does not turn her into a superstar. She is
(03:38):
struggling really, really hard. She finally signs another record deal
with Capitol Records in two thousand seven. The following year,
she puts out the song I Kissed a Girl. That's
her breakout hit. And this is an interesting thing. I
had forgotten about this part of Katie Perry's career. She
was on the Warp Tour in two eight Do you
remember that? That's right, Yeah, I forgot about that. The
(03:59):
Warp Tour, of course, is the traveling tour that's associated
with like pop punk bands. You know, you don't really
think of Katie Pry Charlotte Good Charlotte, you know gold Finger.
I don't like all those, like all those like nineties
band pop punk bands or SKA bands. And Katy Perry's
in that world. She's kind of like a Charlie xc
X maybe of that era, kind of like the she's
(04:21):
like a pop star, but she's kind of like an
underground pop star. And then, of course, in two thousand ten,
things completely changed for her. She puts out their record
Teenage Dream, which is one of the sort of big
blockbuster pop records of this decade some would say one
of the best pop records, would say, of modern times.
And it really turns her into the Katy Perry that
(04:43):
we all know and love today. Like that is sort
of Katy Perry. I guess that might be like Katy
Perry three point out. At that point, She's had many
career reboots, but that is the Katy Perry that sticks.
Let's go back again. We have Taylor Swift. Now, while
Katy Perry is trying to get her career going, Taylor
Swift is becoming one of the biggest country stars pretty
(05:05):
much right off from her first record, which comes out
in two thousand and six, and I don't know, do
you know much about like Taylor Swift's like early career,
Like she you know, her dad was like a stockbroker
and like Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, and then went down to Nashville
to uh to try to a better position. Right, Yeah,
And apparently her dad actually bought part ownership of Big
(05:26):
Machine Records, which was like her original record label. So,
like Taylor Swift is sort of like the prototypical child
star at this point, Like she's a talented kid, she's
a cute kid. Her parents are behind her career. And
I think it's safe to say that this paid off
big time in the case of Taylor Swift, because in
two thousand and six, she puts out her first record.
(05:46):
It's a self titled record. She either wrote or co
wrote all the songs on the album, and that record
is on the Billboard charts for like a hundred and
fifty weeks after that becomes a huge hit, subsequently sells
in the neighborhood of about eight million copies. From there,
she is on the way to becoming the biggest pop
(06:06):
star of the early twenty one century. Two thousand eight,
she puts out Fearless. In two thousand ten, she puts
out speak. Now, this is around the time the Teenage
Dream comes out, and she's already making inroads from being
a huge country star at this point to being a
big pop star. And in two thousand ten, Katie Perry
is also a huge pop star. So now these two
(06:27):
start being at the same award shows together, and this
is like around the time they start becoming friends, right right, Yeah,
they started off friendly. I mean, Taylor tweeted at her
one saying how much she loved the Waking Up in
Vegas video, and Katie responded saying, you know, Taylor was
sweet as pie and kind of jokingly talked about doing
a song together. Have you seen that? I don't remember
that video? Wake Me Up in Vegas? Is that? What
(06:48):
album is that? I think that's one of the boys. Actually,
now I'm one of the boys, the two I believe,
So I'm I'm sure of tweets about that, But my
Perry null kind of peaks with Teenage Dreams, so like
before and after, I'm a little sketch here. So anyway,
Taylor was already a stand when she did her Fearless tour,
(07:10):
and when it hit l A, she invited Katie to
perform Hot and Cold together. I mean they were relatively close. U.
Katie gave an interview where she said that when they
hung out one of the Grammy Awards, she got locks
of hair from Taylor and Miley and wrapped them up
in little bows and carried them around in her purse.
Totally normal, which is completely not voodoo behavior at all.
I think that I think that's very healthy and it
(07:31):
doesn't treat me out at least, not at all. And
I'm absolutely not going to check eBay later to see
if if that's where they wound up. But no, they were.
They were close and friendly for a while. I think
they attended to each other's birthdays and things like that,
and everything seemed fine in Katie Taylor world until Taylor
prepared to release ninety nine in the fall of You
(07:52):
have a Rolling Stone interview, and she talked about at
the time the song was unreleased, but a song on
the album called bad Blood, and she didn't mention by name,
but you said that the song was about one another
woman in music who quote did something so horrible that
it ended their friendship for good. And she said things like,
for years, I was never sure if we were friends
or not who come up to me at award shows
and say something and walk away, And I think, are
(08:13):
we friends? Or does she just give me the harshest
insult in my life? And then she, throughout the course
of the interview said that she for her Red Tour,
I believe got dancers from that had historically worked with
Katie Perry on her Teenage Dream Tour. And then before
the Red Tour was over, um, when Katie released prism
In basically called up these three dancers if you had
(08:35):
a relationship with and said, hey, do you want to
come out in the road with me for the prism tour?
For Prismatic I forget what it was called. And uh,
if you know, you're welcome, but you have to leave
the Taylor's Tour early. So let's pause for a second.
You know, two thousand twelve is when Red comes out.
The Taylor Swift records, your favorite Taylor Swift record, That
is my favorite. That is a bold I am very
it's not bold. It's not bold. It's not bold if
(08:57):
you have good taste, ladies and gentlemen. It is obviously
the let's call it the watershed of Taylor Swift's career.
She puts it out in two thousand twelve. It has
a little bit of country in it, and it has
a little bit of pop. Bringing it all back home
of exactly. It's the bringing it all back home of
the Taylor Swift career. It's the exile in Main Street
of Taylor Swift's career. Doing a little bit of everything
on that album and doing everything very well. So she's
(09:19):
gonna be doing this blockbuster tour in support of it,
and again she's she's going into the pop world. So
she needs backup dancers. You cannot be a pop star
if you do not have a crew of backup dancers
behind you, a fleet of failing a fleet. And yeah,
so she tried to hire three dancers from Katie Perry
and then, of course Katie Perry. She puts out her
(09:40):
record Prism in two thirteen, which, again, you know, the
Katie cats out there might disagree with this. I think
it's safe to say that Prism is sort of the
beginning of her decline as a pop star. Teenage Dream
is a peak. Prism is like when she's starting to
sort of be a little bit more introspective, a little
less sort of colorful and brash and over the top,
which kind of defines her teenage dream era. She's trying
(10:03):
to be like a little more sort of singer songwriter,
not really working for Katie Perry. But so she and
she took these dancers back right right. And I don't
think it was done. I mean, I have no idea,
don't know these people, but I don't think it was
done in a malicious way. I think it was, yeah,
you want to come back and work with me like
he did a couple of years ago. We can speculate, Okay,
what do you say, speculate. I really, I genuinely don't
(10:25):
think it was a malicious way. I think they had
a prior relationship and they got along well with her
and said, you know, you want to come back on
my next tour. Great, but you're gonna have to leave
the Red Tour a little early. I forget how much earlier.
But takes us the wrong way, and this is invading
the sedate and land. This is this is bad. You
were very you were removing a brick from my jinga
(10:46):
of of greatness. Here, my tour is going to fall
apart because you've removed these three dancers. So it's understood
that this is sort of like the beginning of their feud,
although there is an alternate theory here where the John
Mayor theory chaos agent, which John Mayor is a chaos agent,
and the relationship between Taylor Swift and Katie Perry, because
(11:07):
we all know that John Mayer and Taylor Swift appeared
to have some sort of relationship circa in the February
of that of two thousand ten. I think it was
very but it's major enough for Taylor Swift to write
a song called Dear John's Years on the third Taylor
Swift record Speak Now. I don't know if she ever
officially confirmed that's about John Mayer, but it's like called
(11:30):
Dear John. We know John Mayor's a dog. Has she
ever confirmed that, I don't think. I don't think she has,
so I find it hard to believe that there wasn't
at least some role that he played in at least
turning maybe Katie Perry in a negative direction towards Taylor Swift.
That's possible. I mean, Taylor always went on our way
to say that their few it was never about a guy,
(11:51):
never about a guy. It was business. It was about
this this tour dancer business. Uh, which and I like
that that's supposed to be the more reasonable explain nation
that it's about Uh, you know, it's not. It's not
about her boyfriend. It's about these dancers, you know, like
because that's more of a career that is fighting over well,
you know, I mean that that's such a reductive way
(12:12):
to fighting well. And and to be clear, I'm not
saying that, um, they were fighting over John Mayer. I
don't think Taylor Swift was interested in John Mayer. I'm
just saying that from Katie Perry's perspective. You know, her
boyfriend is John Mayer, and Taylor Swift wrote a song
that humiliated John Mayer publicly. You think that at least subconsciously,
(12:33):
that would maybe affect her opinion of Taylor Swift, Like
if you know, she's not a pop star, she's like
an ex who has like written a really mean Facebook
post about the man that you love. Except it's like
a hit song that has sold on an album that's
sold like, you know, ten million copies. So anyway, I'm
just floating that out there. I find it hard to
believe that that that that didn't have at least some
(12:54):
role to play in this whole very very interesting theory,
very compelling theory. All right, we'll right back with more rivals.
(13:15):
It goes beyond dancers, right, I mean, there's other things
that happened after that. Well, that was sort of the
point when it all became public. And then of course
she released bad Blood the song, and then um a
few months later I think it was after the Billboard
Music Awards and made to release the video which she
basically has her entire crew as this. You know, I
think she plays an assassin called Catastrophe I think is
(13:37):
the character that the Taylor plays in it, and she
has her her squad all act as her. You know.
It's almost like it's almost like a Marvel cast or something.
It is a very impressive video the Justice League, right,
and Selena Gomez, who was at least at the time
one of her best friends, plays the villain in the video,
and it's all very uh superhero you know, action movie,
(13:58):
good guy, bad guy kind of thing. And can't remember
the video precisely, I mean, is it Are there any
like hints that she's talking about Katy Perry at all?
Are there like any Kitty Perry? Not one, I don't think.
But later and we'll get to that later with everything
on reputation. But yeah, and then it got a lot
more blatant. But also in the summer of was the
whole VMA's controversy that kind of just was It seemed
(14:19):
like a giant misunderstanding. Nicki Minaj was really disappointed that
her Antacono video didn't get nominated for Video of the
Year category, and she tweeted, Uh, if your video celebrates
women with very slim bodies, you will be nominated for
Video of the Year. Taylor viewed this as a direct
attack on her, and she wrote back and tweeted back
at her, have done nothing but love and support you.
(14:40):
It's unlike you to put women against each other. Maybe
one of the men took your slot and it started
this whole kind of awkward back and forth. Katie weighs
in on Twitter also because everything now and when the tens,
every feud goes to Twitter immediately. Uh said that she
found it quote ironic that Swift would cite the pit
w and against each other argument when her own song
(15:01):
was literally about women fighting, which is a fair point,
fair point point for Katy Perry on that one. I
gotta say, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw
this out here right now that I'm leaning towards Katy
Perry and this I'm very sympathetic Katy Perry. I'm just
throwing that just to throw that out there to the
listeners that anything I say after this just know that
I'm probably a little bit biased. So that will affect
(15:23):
my commentary on this controversy. I will say, and I
should have said this at the start of the episode.
I um I I recently one of my tweets about
Taylor Swift recently went semi viral in like five minutes
after I posted it. So I've experienced the power of
the Swifties firsthand a week or two ago, and it
was both awesome and terrifying. So I would like to
(15:44):
say to all the Swifties, my ear drums are not
fit to receive her musical gifts. Taylor Swift is a
better person than me. Well, now you're gonna stick the
Katie Cats on you, though you're right Cats they don't
play either. So but I think Taylor and Nicki Murna.
I believe that they reconciled, at least briefly performed on
stage at Um at the VMA's that year. Actually they did.
(16:06):
I think it was. I think it was Bad Blood.
Maybe I'm wrong. They had some kind of medley Taylor
and UH and Nikki performed together. It's almost as if
everyone in pop music is an opportunist and they will
shift wilts at the drop of a hat. I'm just
saying maybe that's the case. I don't know, I'm not
Some people might say that. But there were other little
(16:26):
things that went down that summer. I guess when Taylor
was on tour and she performed Bad Blood, they had
one of her dancers dressed as a shark, which was
obviously after Katie Perry's famous left shark dancer Spawl, which
is grow oh it's so good, and then why why why?
But wait, Katie, what's the point of that summer? Maybe
it was that fall Katie announced that she was releasing
a perfume called mad Love, a lyric of course from
(16:51):
Bad Blood. Um. But then it really all kind of
boiled over again in the summer when Taylor and Calvin
Harris were breaking up, and in the midst of their
breakup it got kind of messy. Calvin Harrison had written
and produced a song for Rihanna is uh, this is
what you came for, and it became known that Taylor
had co written it under the name I can't even
(17:13):
say it Nils Joe Bird. It's yeah, like it's like
Calvin Harrison, the Swedish chef, teamed up to do this
song for Rihanna. But but Calvin thought that Taylor's side
maliciously leaked this information and he started tweeting all this stuff,
which he then deleted. Um, he found it hurtful to
me at this point that Taylor and her team would
go so far, you know, making him look bad. And
(17:36):
then um, he said, I know you're off tour and
you need someone new to try and bully like Katie
et cetera. But I'm not that guy. Sorry, I won't
allow it. And uh, Katie just responded with a jeff
of Hillary Clinton shrugging, which is great, and then she
also retweeted her own tweet from May that said time
the ultimate truth teller. See, I'm just picturing Katie Perry
(17:58):
sitting in her house and like l a and just
like having gifts, candy all around her, kenye all around her,
just having gifts like locked and loaded, ready to go
get drafted. It's like, Okay, I know some bullshit's gonna
arise with Taylor Swift at some point, but like she
had like a hundred gifts that she was like market
testing with her friends, like, you know, should I do
the Hilly Clinton? Like what you do? Like shrug? Yeah,
(18:21):
it was like it was Hillary I want to debate shrugging.
I think I should I do a Hilly Clinton gift?
Should I do? You know Michael Jackson eating popcorn on
the front? That's a classic, right And they said no, no, no,
definitely the Hillary Clinton shrugging. That is the way to go. So,
I mean, was that it or it kept going? I
mean and later for for Katie's birthday that fall, she
(18:42):
went to a Kanye West show and uh instagram live
her singing along to uh to famous verse, Uh you
know I made that bitch famous. She she's get on
her own face when Kanye on the stage is singing that.
She's dancing along to it all happy. I don't remember
that part. Now that this gets, this gets really seems
a little. The other things are kind of funny. Now
(19:03):
we're getting like definitely that video, Yeah, that that was
wrong on every level. Poke in the bear Man and
then also, I guess a fan tweeted at her and said,
will you collaborate with Taylor Swift? And she said if
she says sorry, sure for a while. This is like
pretty one sided. I feel like Taylor Swift, Well, she
did the video from reputation, Look what you made Me do? Yes?
No that I have a lot to say about that.
(19:23):
But before that was Katie's album Witness came out and
May Swish Wish Yes, I mean basically a major talking
point of her entire you know, press cycle for for
Witness was just talking about this feud. I mean, she
was did an interview with Entertainment Weekly the may that
it came out. You can't mistake kindness for weakness, and
(19:45):
don't come for me anyone, anyone, anyone, anyone. And that's
not to any one person, And don't quote me that
it is because it's not. It's not about that. Honestly,
when women come together and they decided to unite, this
world is going to be a better place, period, end
of story. But let me say this, every thing has
a reaction or a consequence, So don't forget about that, okay, honey,
Which is kind of terrifying. Then she drops Swish Swish,
(20:08):
which has the you know, don't come at me mantra
all through it. Uh, it's clearly directed at all of
her haters, seemingly obviously at Taylor. Don't you come for me? No,
not today, You're calculated. I've got your number because you're
a joke and I'm a courtside killer queen, which is
which is like I'm looking at hello, cool ja line.
That's a great and uh, you know, and then of
(20:32):
course there was a come apt me with what like
what a music video? So then you know, in case
there was you know, any missing understanding about who this
was about. Uh, Nicki Minaj, Taylor's one time foe did
a guest verse on it, and um. The artwork for
(20:52):
the single features a Katie's hand clutching receipt for Karma
Coffee and tea. So this this opens the floodgates. She
goes on James Cordon. James asks if there's you know
what the deal is between Katie and Taylor, and she says, honestly,
you know, it's true. There is a situation. Uh, she
(21:12):
started it and it's time for her to finish it.
Almost her exact words again demanding an apology, and then
uh in Enemy she said, I'm not Buddha. Things irritate me,
which is pretty amazed. I think she's right and she
is not Buddha. Is a great argument there. You're not
(21:32):
gonna you can't disprove that one. The whole press cycle
for that it got really she opened up a lot,
which on one hand, you know, I applaud I mean
she did that like I think it was a forty
eight hour of uh YouTube live stream thing where she
was like ranking like the boyfriends that she's had, like sexually.
I think that was part of think that was part
of it. Yeah. Yeah, and that press cycle one of
(21:54):
the great press cycles of the two thousand tens for
for that album is kind of a disaster. What is
didn't I mean, just the stats beared out didn't do well.
It was her only album that didn't go past She
did that like weird SNL and appearance with like that
kid like Flossy flossing that. Yeah, and uh, it just
seemed like I'm just gonna throw everything against the wall
(22:16):
to try to go viral with this album. I'm gonna
get YouTube stars in here, I'm gonna be you know,
I'm doing the forty eight hour like a live feed thing.
I'm just grasping at straws at this point. And the
forty eight hour feed thing was when she give an
interview with Ariana Huffington and she basically said, you know,
I I forget her exact words, but something like, I
actually know here they are. I love her and I
(22:37):
want the best for her, she said. Swift, Yes, Katie
said that about Taylor Swift. Taylor, after all the press
in this album cycle responded by the day that Witness
was due to be released. Uh, she put all of
her songs back on Spotify, which and she famously took
them off a few years before View too, you know,
disagreement about Spotify's payment practices, classic ups staging move, yes,
(23:01):
which was pretty great. I mean that's that. That is
a if you host a podcast about music rivalries, gift
from Heaven. Oh yeah, that kind of pettiness. You know,
you can't you can't hope for more than that. If
you're just a decent human being, you might go, I
don't know about that tailor your karma receipt with the
(23:21):
what was it with the coffee and the one that
was coffee and tea, Karma coffee and tea? Was that
a receipt? Man? It just went up with that move, Taylor. Uh.
And then she puts up the video what You Made
Me Do? Sent swift ease into you know, beautiful mind
style searching through it for Easter eggs. Now, something I
should have mentioned earlier. When the Rolling Stone interview hit,
(23:42):
the tailor sort of first hinted out there being something
off between between her and Katie. Uh. The day that
I hit, Katie tweeted, be aware of Regina George in
sheep's clothes and Regina George being the antagonist the bully
in uh in Mean Girls? Is that Rachel McAdam. Yeah,
brilliant portrayal. Oh incredible. Um, Rachel McAdams doesn't love Rachel
(24:06):
McAdams in that movie. Oh yeah, I mean incredible, amazing
in every movie. So Taylor, in the fall of after
all the witness dust has settled, puts out look what
you Made Me Do? The um the beat to it.
Fans have observed, I can't confirm whether or not this
is actually true. Uh sounds remarkably like it may actually
(24:28):
be sample. I think it just sounds like, Uh. The
Peaches song Operate, which is featured in Mean Girls in
the scene when Regina George played by Rachel McAdams is
getting dressed for Halloween and so that beat that is,
you know, one of the main Regina George scenes in
Mean Girls is the you know, backing beat to Taylor's
revenge song that would You Made Me Do? I love
(24:49):
this because I think it's acknowledged by most people that
that is like one of the worst Taylor Swift singles
of all time, and like it kind of screwed that
album over because people were so turned off by that.
But I love the Taylor Swift said, you know what,
I don't care. I'm still gonna like reference this song
from a movie that my arch rival referenced in a
(25:10):
It was a tweet because that is more important to
me than putting out a single that would actually set
up my album in a better way. And of course,
you know, Mean Girls had the burn Book in it.
And then there's the lyric I got a list of
names and juice isn't read underlined. I mean it's I mean,
I mean fans, I should I should you know, reiterate
that these are all things that fans have been saying.
I I have no I'm just I'm just asking questions.
(25:30):
I'm just it's all true. All the fans are right.
But and then of course, you know, walked me out
and threw a feast is another line which and Katie
had a song on Witness Bon Appetite. Thought to me
that the feast was in reference to that. I love
the steep announcis. Oh no, there's I mean, there's so
many her fans are incredible with all that. I mean,
you know, Taylor talks about that all the time about
her fans have these incredible theories. That makes all the
(25:51):
Paul's Dead stuff look like, you know, boring compared to this.
And then so the video for Look What You Made
Me Do features Taylor dressed remarkably lie Katie. I can't
say she's dressed as Katy. It looks remarkably like Katie's
worried that like you're gonna get sued if you because
like like the Taylor Swift lawyers or the Katie Perry
lawyers are gonna descend I have to couch our language. Allegedly,
(26:12):
she's extremely petty in this video. I work for People magazine.
This is this is part of my this has been
grained into me. Some might say that she was insane,
you know, but we're not saying it's some might she
was off for saying. But in the video, Taylor's dressed
looking remarkably like Katie at that time, the short blonde hair,
(26:32):
and she's in a car crash, which seems to be
a reference to uh, Witness being a car crashing album
while Taylor is having her own car crash. Because again
this is like, I mean, I actually like Reputation, but like,
I think it's at least a flawed I'm not gonna
say masterpiece, but it's a flawed sort of polarizing record, right.
(26:53):
And when this gets back to what I was saying
in the beginning the episode, where I think, you know,
Witness and Reputation both released in twenty seven teen, but
they both take on these characters of sort of you
know villains and tough talking villains, which is not my
interpretation who they are. And I think that it confused people.
I don't think people were looking for that. I won't
say that people didn't like that, but I don't think
(27:14):
people were looking for that. And I think that it
was inspired by one another. And I think for you
know that year, a lot of what they did was
related to that back and forth, and and and they
leaned further into those characters. We're going to take a
quick break to get a word from our sponsor before
we get two more rivals. That's kind of the beginning
(27:42):
of the end of this theory, right, you know, my
reputation outsold witnessed by a huge magnitude. Well, and that
relates to another theory I have about this feud, because
I'll share in a minute, But like, I think we
should just say wrap up the feud. How did you?
Because it got resolved in teen May. She kicks off.
Taylor kicks off her reputation Asian tour, and she receives
a literal olive branch from Katie Perry, which has a note.
(28:06):
Taylor Instagram story this and you can read a little
bit of a note says hey, old friend, I've been
doing some reflecting on past miss communications and the feelings
between us. I really want to clear the air. Dot
dot dot And you can't read the rest. And and
Taylor was apparently really really happy by this. Apparently Katie's
team I saw some interview in the Sun I think
where Katie's team was kind of annoyed that that she
(28:28):
instagram story this because allegedly they felt that it made
her look like she was taking responsibility for the feud,
and because Katie Perry's in the media saying no Taylor
Swift test to apologize to me and the banning apologies
for years, and yet she's the new Caves exactly. I
mean that that's what it crawls back to Taylor, but
it did. It went on effectively ended the feud. And
(28:49):
then in in this spring, uh, Katie's asked on all
these red carpets about whether or not they collaborate again.
She said, yeah, you know, things are getting better between us,
cookies or something right, And then in June, um, I
think Katie tweeted a picture of cookies that said piece
at Last on it and added Taylor Swift on it,
and then Taylor wrote a comment with thirteen heart emojs.
(29:10):
You know Taylor's big numbers, thirteen beautiful. And then within
days they had the Taylor's you need to Calm Down
video where the big reveal at the end. You know
it's a whole song about you know, preaching tolerance and unity.
Wait a second, so like they just randomly tweeted this
photo of cookies, and then a few days later, there's
like a promo for a video, No, not a promo
v video. Wow, So what a coincidence? Like it's Tims
(29:32):
really well yeah, you know, okay, so this ties into
my theory here, and this is an extremely cynical take.
What if this is all bullshit? Maybe the fact that
they now have reconciled is related to the fact that
Katie Perry, well, all due respect to the legacy of
Katie Perry, is not quite the pop star that she
was when this feud was really at its red hot
(29:52):
most fury, like in the early two thousand tents, and
that maybe it's more advantageous for Taylor Swift to say,
reignite a feud with Kanye West, who is still a
very famous celebrity. Do you think at all that this
just might be a trumped up thing and that they
really didn't ever have like a serious conflict. I I mean,
I don't. This is the extremely cynical cynical here, you know.
(30:15):
And I'm not even like I'm not attacking them by
saying this. I'm saying they're savvy. If it was an experiment,
and if this was a you know, all trumped up
to go in, you know, to take a left turn
musically and creatively. Then I think you could argue that
it was a failed experiment because I think that, you know,
I mean, Witness was I think Katie's first album that
didn't go platinum and reputation, although a blockbuster and sold
(30:39):
a lot relatively speaking, didn't sell the same amount as
nine and all the ones before that. And I think,
you know, a lot of their views. I'm reading for Lover,
which is you know, her her latest album, great album.
A lot of people are saying it is, you know,
a return to form. And I think some of Katie's
recent music too, if he has that new song never
Really Over, which seems a lot more like for is
(31:00):
an era, maybe not a teenage dream era, but that
it seems like, Okay, we went down this dark path
um and now we're back. This is what I'm saying though,
because they abandoned that because it didn't work. So now
we're gonna we're gonna go back to be nice you know,
pop stars, and we're not gonna have conflict anymore, because
that seems to be what people want. I'm telling you, man,
question it is a this is Me. I'm like that,
(31:21):
you know, if we're gonna do memes, you know, Like,
I'm like that dude from It's Always Sunny, String The String,
I'm like that guy right now. Now I got tinfoil
hat on, don't worry. Okay. So let's say you're going
to make an argument in favor of Katy Perry. You're
on the Katie Cats side against Taylor Swift. Like, what
would be the pro Katie Perry argument? I mean, really,
(31:42):
the first thing I would think of is is Teenage Dream.
I mean that album it is is aside from Michael
Jackson's Bad, is the only album that has five number
one singles on Its really incredible, especially for you know,
I mean that that's an amazing achievement and that album.
Maybe it's personal. Maybe I just it came out the
year after I graduated college, and uh, you know, like
(32:04):
any good millennial graduated in the recession knowing any jobs.
So we all moved back home and we're all living
with their parents. A bunch of me and my friends
were living in the same house that we were in
five years before in high school. That song came out
thinking about being teenagers. But we weren't teenagers, were early twenties,
but no jobs. Yeah, this is a dark context. I
feel like if if wonder if the wonder Use TV
(32:25):
show We're made you know for the for instead of
were made in two thousand ten for two thousand and ten,
I think that this song would be included in it.
I think that there's a lot of emotion in that
song wrapped up at least like me would be like
the ironic soundtrack of like Millennials, like contemplating crushing debt
and the like collapsing environment. It's like like the Last
(32:45):
Friday and and it's like, you know, like you're showing
you like looking at your bills. Well, like this really
happy pop music. The title track, I mean, teenage Dream.
I mean to me, it was just like instant nostalgia
for like, you know, teenage years that were not that
far earlier but felt so far removed. And I mean
I that that song hit me. That song, you know
hit me personally. I don't want to speak for for
(33:06):
you know, anyone else, but I I love that that album,
you know, unabashedly it's one of my favorite albums of
all time. I think it's an incredible pop album. It's
a great record, And that would be my argument for
her too, is that I feel like there was a
period of time where she was sort of the most
fun pop star. So I agree. I think her legacy
is that record, and it kind of cements her in
(33:27):
pop history. Whenever people talk about pop music from that era,
just kind of signifies that record. And it would be
the ironic soundtrack of two thousand ten, which, uh, you know,
it was kind of a dark year. You know, you
have the tea party starting to emerge at that time,
and you have the economy is coming back, but it's
still kind of sluggish, and yet we're all listening to
(33:49):
this infectious pop record. Um, if you're gonna make the
pro Taylor Swift case, what would be the crux of
that case? I mean I started looking up for her,
you know, record achievements and stuff, and I just got
bored and just I mean it's just just so many.
I mean, it's you know, I I don't think that
you've had a female pop star who has taken such
(34:10):
incredible ownership of her career and her art and her
image at that high level for that sustained period. I mean,
you had, you know, Gaga did it for a while,
I think, and then I started drop off a bit.
I think, you know, Taylor could say, Beyonce and Madonna
I think are the ones I can think of that
that did it for that long that well. I remember
during the reputation era, you started seeing think pieces being
(34:33):
written about Taylor Swift being on her way out because
there was this generation of sort of Internet native pop
stars talk stars, yeah, or you know, even like like
little NASAs someone like that who's like not part of
the sort of pop machinery, who didn't come up through
the ranks the way that someone like Taylor Swift did,
who kind of comes out of nowhere and has this
(34:54):
humongous song that is on the charts forever. Um, there
was this idea, I think that Taylor Swift was kind
of like a passe type pop star and now we're
going to have Internet native pop stars that we're gonna
take over, and which is not to say that that's
not happening, but it is I think still true that
Taylor Swift is like a dominant pop star and has
been for you know, going on almost fifteen years at
(35:16):
this point. So the case for hers that she is
like one of the great all time pop stars. And
in a way, Katy Perry was sort of like a
bug that bounced off her windshield for like a couple
of years. That sounds worse than I mean it to say,
that's not We're all bugs off of windshields. Compared to
Taylor Swift, Okay, she's a She's like a multinational corporation
(35:38):
at this point as a as a as a pop star.
I mean, I think about Taylor. I think it's so
interesting too, is the connection that she she has built
with her fan base. I mean, her Lover Special Edition
version like literally has pages from her diary. I mean,
I feel like the connection that she makes with them,
and really I just totally normal by the way. Well, no,
I feel like I feel like I don't know what
Katie Perry is. I know, for all of her songs
(35:59):
that are introspective and and try to present that that
kind of more, you know, inward looking side of her,
I feel like I don't really know her in the
same way. Well, I think with Taylor Swift, she's presenting
a version of herself even in those diary pages. I mean,
Katy Perry did again put herself on camera for like
forty eight hours, which I think my mind blowing thing.
(36:19):
I mean I should feel like I know her so well,
but I for some reason I don't. I mean, granted, yes,
you're right. I mean whatever Taylor's present think could totally
be skewed as you know, a fiction, but I was
not even a fiction. It's just like a it's a
version of herself. I would never I mean, I think
with all these people, you can ever presume to know
who they really are. I mean, there's always some sort
of subterfuge going on which there should be got to
(36:41):
protect some part of yourself from public consumption. I would
hope in terms of like just them being together, I
guess what is the case for them sort of coexisting
peacefully in the world. I mean the easy answer is
good lord, I mean, we don't need to pay more
women against each other. That's kind of the the my
go to answer for that. Um, you know, at this point,
I feel like Katy Perry has her lane. I always
(37:03):
love her big hits, but like Taylor Swift is like
in another league in terms of stardom, in terms of
her career, Like she doesn't need to be, you know,
driving the dump truck over like the small car, you
know what I mean. I mean, because she really is
like so much. She's such an imperial I mean, Kanye
West is. I think people talk about that rivalry still
(37:24):
because he is comparable to her in terms of celebrity,
not in terms of his chart success artistry and artistry
of course. I mean we're setting artistry aside here for
a second, because well, I'm just saying that in terms
of like these sorts of discussions, like the kind of
records you put out. I don't know how much that
really played. I'm talking about like their celebrity anyway. I
think that's why people still remember that. So to me,
(37:44):
this just kind of lives on as like a colorful
chapter in both of their careers that was ultimately harmless.
As much as they dug in after each other, it
didn't seem like they were ever really like over the
top or like crossing the line in a way that
you could say about the Kanye West or Swift. Oh yeah,
that seemed to be crossing the line blood um and
(38:05):
like the Kim Kardashian voicemails and all that stuff. But
we can save that for another episode, because that is
another rich chapter. The rich vein of hate in the
history of music. Rivalries. Jordan's always a pleasure rivalries, and
it's always pleasure talking all of you at home listening,
or at the gym or wherever you might be, or
in your car or on the subway at the store
(38:28):
with your karma and coffee and tea received looking to
take some karma back to the store. Um, thanks again
for listening. We will talk to you all next week.
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive
(38:48):
producers are Shawn Titone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers
are Taylor T. Cooin and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's roun
Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard,
please subscribe and leave us a review from more podcast
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.