Boys Brouhaha: Backstreet Boys vs. *NSYNC

In the late 1990s, there were no bigger boy bands than the Backstreet Boys and *NSYNC. They might have ended up as rivals anyway given that they operated in the same lane of sweet ballads and synchronized dances. But the tension between was ratcheted up because they had the same "Big Poppa," the infamous impresario Lou Pearlman. Eventually, however, their sniping ceased once the groups realized they were both being ripped off.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Yeah, hello everyone,
and welcome to Rivals, to show about music, feuds and
beefs and long sustummering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve, I'm Jordan,

(00:21):
and we're about the venture to the land of frosted Tips,
Fedoras and Darren's dance prooves. I cannot wait. Today we
have a boy band brawl Backstreet Boys versus in Sync.
I cannot wait. Yes, Yeah, this is gonna be interesting. Man. Like,
I feel like you were of the right age during
this era, you know, because you're you're a little bit
younger than me. Like, were you like in grade school

(00:43):
when these bands were really blown up? Yeah, I was
like twelve probably during the height of this, which was
which is weird because it felt like you were expected
as like a boy on the playground. The like mercilessly
mocked both of these bands, but of course you like
privately did kind of enjoy some of some of the
bigger bops. Um, I gotta say, I'm kind of as
much as I'm excited to do this episode, I don't

(01:03):
think I've ever been more frightened to do one of
these because the fandoms are just really intense for both
of these groups, and I just have like a very
real fear that there are people in my life who
won't speak to me by the end of this episode.
And it's, uh, it's tearing at my heart. I gotta
say it really is. Well. Part of hosting a podcast
is having the courage to upset boy band fans. Jordan's
so we must adhere to professional responsibility. Yeah, I'm I'm

(01:26):
excited to get into this too. Like I was in
college during the boy band era. Uh so I was
listening to you know, Built a Spill and Neutral Milk
Hotel and all of these late nineties indie rock bands.
But I was also listening to the radio a lot
at that time, so I also know every word too.

(01:48):
I want it that way by heart, even though I
still don't understand what that song means. Oh yeah, no,
which I think we'll we'll, we'll, we'll get into that
in this episode. It's definitely a song written by Swedish
people who do not speak English as their first lass
pre Google Translate. In spite of all that, a brilliant
song and uh yeah, this is gonna be fun because

(02:08):
as cuddly as these groups are, there's actually like a
lot of genuine animosity and seediness in this story, which
is stuff I love, so I'm excited to get into it.
Let's dive into this mess alright. Two boy bands both
alike in Dignity and Fara Orlando, where we lay our scene.

(02:30):
The story really begins with Louke Pearlman, who's like really
one of the truly great music industry sleez bags, right,
Like it's just everything about him. He's like Harvey Weinstein
meets Colonel Tom Parker. Oh my god. Yeah, no, that's
a great and great comparison. I mean, he's just I
think a J. McClean and the two thousand nine documentary
The lou Pearlman Story called him the best used car

(02:51):
salesman you've ever seen. And it's I mean you in
a way you almost feel bad for him because he
has kind of a sad backstory. He grew up in
Queens as like the chubby kid that wanted to know
and so he just kind of like started lying all
the time and telling tall tales just to kind of
make people like him, which you know, I mean, it's
such a childlike thing, but it's it's sad, and I guess.
He used to tell people, you know, one day, I'm

(03:12):
going to be rich, and and when I'm rich, people
will like me. And half of that happened. At least
he did get very rich. I love the story of
how he got into the boy band business, which you know,
because he he did. I don't know if he made
his fortune, but he definitely got into the business world
by chartering airplanes. And uh. He once charted an airplane
for the new kids on the block, and he saw

(03:35):
much money they were making, and he couldn't believe that
these young kids were so rich. So he asked his uncle, who,
by the way, who was his uncle Jordan's was his cousin.
His cousin was art Garfuncle, And that part was true. Yes,
for habitual fibure, that's a pretty good, like real thing
to have. I was hoping it was his uncle. I
like the idea of uncle Artie, but it's cousin Artie.
I love how on this show, by the way, that

(03:56):
like previous stars of our episodes, always seemed to come
back in later episodes like an unexpected way. It's like
we just talked about Simon and Garfuncle, and now Garfuncle
rears his af road head once again. In a rival's episode,
Billy Joel comes up a lot to I feel like,
oh yeah, well that's just because we both are obsessed
with Billy Joel. But be that as it may. He

(04:18):
talks to our guar funcle Lou Pearlman, and he realizes
that this is a business that he that he wants
to be in, so he launches Transcontinental Records, and he
goes on this talent search like looking for the next
great boy band, and he ends up hooking up with
Johnny Wright, who was the manager for New Kids on
the Block, and he ends up forming the Backstreet Boys

(04:39):
and also forming in sync and pinning them against each other.
He amasses a ton of money, he becomes as rich
as he hoped to be as a kid, but then
it all sort of comes crashing down and he ends
up going to prison and actually dying in prison, which
is a terrible way to end up. But that is
getting ahead of ourselves. We should go back here and

(04:59):
get back to the forming of the Backstreet Boys, because
it's a pretty interesting story, isn't it. Oh yeah, it's
it's It almost sounds like some kind of weird like
summer camp thing. He placed an ad in the Orlando
Sentinel for for vocalists who wanted to form a pop group,
and I think A J. McClean came first, and he
auditioned for him in his living room, which I don't know,
makes me feel kind of weird, but and so the

(05:22):
other guys showed up and they rented a well, I
guess he owned a blimp hanger from his his transport business.
So he basically staged what he called boy band boot
camp and just had him practicing out there for like
six to eight hours a day. No a c just
long days of dance rehearsals and voice lessons. Like it
was quite a bonding experience. And then I'm pretty sure

(05:42):
they all lived together in in lose like Florida mansion
and uh rich and had like movie nice. There's there's
tings of like Michael Jackson in here. I feel like, yeah, yeah.
One thing I forgot to mention is that lu Pruman
has been accused of sexual harassment even assault by boys
under his tutelage, essentially like groups that he's been involved

(06:04):
with putting together. I don't think there was any accusations
from the Backstreet Boys in Sync camps, but like what
didn't like members of LFO accuse him of sexual impropriety
and I think there was a guy from Otown that
also called him out at one point. Yeah, I think
Ashley Parker Angel from Otown also did. And yeah, there
was definitely some weirdness there. I don't know, you know,
if anything was ever proven, but but yeah, a bunch

(06:25):
of kids in this middle aged guy's house totally normal. Uh,
we got a j first. I believe Howie had auditioned
for Minuto, the the Latin boy band. Uh. Nick Carter
was like fourteen, and I think he turned down a
role in The Mickey Mouse Club to two for a
shot at this Kevin Richardson was working at Disney as
a Laddin, which I can totally see at the time,

(06:47):
and Kevin suggested his younger cousin, Brian Lttrelle, who I
guess got the call in the middle of a high
school history class, like someone called him the office, like
take a phone call, and it was his cousin beinging like, hey,
do you want to sing in this band? Like make
a ton of it's to make a lot of money,
and it's all right, shuts, you know, this is a
lot better than the you know, the Louisiana Purchase or whatever.
Learning a history class that day. So so again, is

(07:10):
it is it it fair to say that like Latrelle
was like the timber Lake of Backstreet Boys. It seems
like he was the de facto lead singer. I love
that group. Wasn't here or was it Carter? I always
thought it was Brian, But then when I would kind
of like run that by people because I was always
my gun, But no, no, it was either. It was
like a a huge argument for Nick. Also and also A

(07:31):
J made a strong showing too so and that's god,
we'll get in this later too. I always felt that
Backstreet Boys were much more of a band than in Sync.
Like in Sync, I always kind of got the impression
was sort of outshown by j T and j C
to a certain extent, But yeah, I know that they were.
They had their share of lead vocalists, but oh yeah
they were. They were definitely more of a unit, probably

(07:52):
because the guys in that band, I think, are a
little more faceless that the people in in Sync. I
mean there, you know, if they had had a justin
timber like type talent in the back Street Boys, he
probably would have, you know, you know, risen to the
top in the way that you know, the actual JT
rose to the top and in Sync. But at any rate,
what what what fascinates me about the Back Street Boys,

(08:13):
like early image was that they were conceived as like
this bad boy act. Like the first time that they
performed was in at Sea World Bad Boys. I feel like, yeah,
I feel like Sea World was like you know, the
CBG b of of of the boy band scene. You know,
it seems like a lot of boy bands like performed

(08:34):
at places like that earlier in their career, Like but yeah,
like they were wearing like, you know, like leather jackets
and at that time, and I think there was this
idea that they were going to be sort of like
the tough boy band. And it's very intriguing to me
because when I think about the Back Street Boys, especially
in comparison to in Sync, I think of them as

(08:54):
being the more adult band in spite of being called boys.
Like there's some thing very stagy in a way in
the way that they're presented. Like I just think of
them in like the all white suits from like the
I Want It that Way video, you know, whereas in
sinc always seemed like they were dressed more like kids
essentially a little edgier, and I don't want to say street. Yeah,

(09:18):
they just like came off a pickup like basketball game
or something. They're all were like wearing basketball jerseys and stuff,
and like, yeah, they exactly they felt like the kids
next door. But like Luke Proman was, I think um
shrewd in the sense that, you know, as soon as
he got the Backstreet Boys going, he started thinking about
another group that could be a contrast. I think the
analogy that he uses that you know, if you have coke,

(09:40):
you also want to have pepsi. So as he's getting
the back Street Boys going, he's also getting in Sync
rolling as well, although he's not really telling the Backstreet
Boys about it, right, I mean, it's it's sort of
a sneaky thing, and that ends up being one of
the first real defining things of this rivalry. It's like,
what makes the Backstreet Boys, at least for a while

(10:02):
resent in sync? Oh yeah, it was crazy. I mean
he kept them. He had in sync on all like
business forms as under a code name. It was called
B five or something. In case An he went the
label like got Wind of it and then told the
Backstert Boys he was really really underhanded about it, and
then I guess he finally showed I think it was
Kevin like a VHS recording of of in Sync, just
sort of showcasing them, and Kevin later said an interview,

(10:25):
I think it was the Backstreet Boys documentary, saying, like,
you know, that really felt like a betrayal. We started
out thinking, you know, we're a team, We're gonna take
over the world. There's nobody like us, and then it's like, oh,
my manager made somebody exactly like us. Cool like that
we can that's gonna be our biggest competition. So yeah,
it must have felt like, you know, why would you
why would you do this? After we we lived with you,

(10:46):
like they called them big Papa, which again doesn't fill
me with a good feeling, but they viewed him as, Yeah,
it's just like paternal figure that they lived with and
used to like get driving lessons in his rolls, Royce
and just I don't know, have dinner nights and move
me nights and stuff. And then suddenly to find out
he's basically been two time and it probably felt like, yeah,
having like a mistress or something if somebody who's like

(11:07):
a full time girlfriend, it really really hurt them. It
seems like from Lou Proman's perspective, he saw himself as
a potential Berry Gordy figure. And Barry Gordy, of course
is the founder of Motown, one of the great music
moguls of all time, and Barry Gordy essentially created a
factory for hit pop groups, like he just kept turning

(11:29):
them out. You know. It was the whether it was
the Four Tops or was the Jackson Five, the Temptations,
all all down the line, and I think, Uh, there's
this great quote from Johnny Wright, uh from Rolling Stone
where he said that, you know, instead of Motown, we
wanted to be Snowtown, Like you referred to them as Snowtown.
This idea of like whatever Motown was for R and

(11:52):
b X in the sixties and seventies, we're going to
be like that for boy bands in the nineties. And
of course Lou Proman fore grounded that a little bit
later on with the whole Making the Band series, uh,
where it's like, Okay, not only am I going to
be this impresario, I'm actually going to like show the
public how easy this infrastructure of this how easy it is,

(12:16):
which of course added to the resentment of the groups
that he first started. Like I know, the Backstreet Boys,
for instance, like hated that show because it basically made
them look like chumps, Like oh yeah, we're We're just
another product of this guy's assembly line. But yeah, like
within Sync, I mean they started getting going. I guess
it was like, was it like a year or two
after Backstreet It was like mid nineties or so. Yeah.

(12:38):
I think it was like Backstreet was nine and it
started with Chris Kirkpatrick, who was actually somebody who auditioned
for the Backstreet Boys. I think that was how we
got on Lou Promin's radar. And then he knew Justin
Timberlake and j c Um and j c And and
Justin Timberlake. We're on the Mickey Mouse Club together. And
I think I could be wrong. I think the three
of them were doing like demos in Nashville together something

(13:00):
so that they had some kind of musical connection, and
they ran into Chris's friend from Orlando, Joey Fatone, who
I love this so much. He was working as wolfman
at the Universal Studios Beetlejuice Rock and Roll Graveyard and review,
which I can just completely see that. Yeah, perfect wolf Man.
And then uh, Justin's vocal coach suggested Lance, who was

(13:21):
a fifteen year old from Mississippi. Um. There was originally
another guy named Jason, and that was how they got
the band's name was supposed to be the last letter
of all of their first names. So this I forgot.
What happened to this guy Jason. He was kind of
like the like the Pete Best I guess of the insane,
and he always lasted like a couple of weeks. I
think he decided. I don't think he was fired. I

(13:42):
think he decided to leave. But so they made Lance
change his name like to Lanston, so that the whole
like last letter of the first name things still worked out,
which I love. Yeah, yeah, this doesn't really have like
it doesn't like Scan and Tiger Beat. I have to
say it's a good No, not really, but yeah, like

(14:03):
you were saying, he really tried to pit them against
each other in in their image, like if Backstreet Boys
were the sort of dark, moody, slightly more adult group,
then they were the boys next door. They're in basketball
jerseys and shorts and air Jordan's shoes and stuff. And
I don't know if I agree with this, but I
guess in principle, they were supposed to be more of
a performance based group with like way better dance moves.

(14:24):
They had like the what's his name Darren from Darren's
Dance groups doing a lot of choreography for them, and
they were supposed to be more focused on on on
concerts and stuff, whereas Backstreet Boys, where I guess more
focused on their harmonies. I don't know if that's true,
but that's I guess what the idea was behind the
two with their separate images. That makes sense to me
because again, I think when you look at how the
Backstreet Boys are presented in their videos, they just seemed

(14:46):
a little more stoic and uh, like I said, more adult,
and I feel like the performance style of in Sync
it just seems younger and more energetic, and I think
that's why ultimately in Sync I feel like they overtook
Backstreet Boys by the end, even though, and this is
something we're gonna get into, I mean, there's I feel

(15:07):
like there's a perception that in Sync is more popular
than the Backstreet Boys, although Backstreet Boys are statistically the
best selling boy band of all time like a long shot.
I think in Sync is number eight, right, which but
but again, like perception wise, I feel like in Sync

(15:27):
they still seem like more of a touchdown to me,
maybe again because they seem younger, and also because they
had Justin timber Lake. I mean, I think that was
ultimately the thing that like historically, you know, people are
gonna remember in Sync because Justin timber Lake came from there,
whereas the Backstreet Boys are still together, that's there's still
a unit. But they didn't have like that one breakout star,

(15:50):
uh in the same way that like, you know, the
Jackson five had Michael Jackson. You know, in Sync had
Justin timber Lake. Um. But you know, it is interesting,
you know how the early days, in Sync was the
underdog in this uh in this dynamic, and you know,
the members of InSync have talked about how they really

(16:11):
felt like the redheaded step child essentially in this UH
in this company that like the Backstuy Boys were the
main attraction and in Sync we're going to be, you know,
always coming up behind them. And it seems like that
has a lot to do with how they were launched,
because I mean, their careers got started around the same time,

(16:31):
but actually boys became successful just like a little bit
later than they did, right. Yeah, I think Backstreet Boys
launched first in Europe, so they were technically first, but
I feel like that and then in sync they they
both also got their start in in Europe. It was
kind of like, I think it was two fold. Your
European market was really really just primed for for American

(16:52):
boy bands. There was a huge, huge fad farm at
that time over there, and they were selling like crazy.
And also I think it was almost like a Broadway
show opening out of town and just to like get
the kinks out first and sort of like you know,
making sure it's all good before you you open on
on on the Great White Way. We're gonna take a
quick break and get a word from our sponsor before
we get to more rivals. Yeah, the Backstreet Boys got

(17:21):
started first in the States, and they, again, like you said,
instinct was sort of more of the underdog until July
and there was a Disney had an hour long concert
special planned and uh and and they wanted the Backstreet
Boys to do it, and Brian Latruelle had heart surgery
and so they couldn't do it, and so Instincts stepped
in and it was kind of their star making moment.

(17:44):
I guess, like records just started absolutely snowball at that point.
They went from selling like I think five albums a
week to like fifty to sixty thousand a week. I mean,
just went totally crazy. It went from being at like
sixty three on Billboard to you know, jumping up to
I think number two was this high is um as
their debut album got and back Street Boys resented the

(18:05):
hell out of that. It's basically like, you know, they
just completely went off our coattails and everything we passed
on they would take and now just adding insult injury.
They made a huge success of it. So that kind
of so the actual resentment between the two bands. And
it's weird because I think I think there was a
moment in Europe where it could have been either one

(18:26):
of them that got the first push, right, I mean,
because they were both being successful overseas. The Backstreet Boys
record I think dropped in like ear like January or so,
and then I think the instinct record came out like
a few months after that. So if that had been
switched with which you feel like it could have easily done.

(18:47):
Then it would have been the other way around. It
would have been the back Street Boys writing on Instinct's coattails,
don't you think. I mean, I just wonder like how
this would have shaken up if Instinct would have launched first,
and if the back of Boys would have just been
overshadowed completely from the beginning, Like maybe that maybe they
were successful first because they kind of got that push

(19:08):
early on. Yeah, this is sort of like an alternate
timeline of boy band history. I'm throwing, Wow, Yeah, that's
really fascinating. You're right, because I feel like, you know,
the b Actually Boys ended up presenting in Sync at
this time because, as you said that, there was this
idea that, like anything that the back Street Boys rejected,
in Sync would get and they would somehow benefit from

(19:31):
being in the jet stream of the Backstreet Boys. But
I also think they probably ended up resenting in Sync
because they could see in Sync big footing them at
some point, and they knew that they had justin Timberlake,
and and I think timber Lake in a way becomes
like the tour of in Sync, like as they go on,

(19:53):
like in a way that like like the Actually Boys
don't really have an a tour, like like a person
that you would look to is like a figurehead or
someone who's who's really in control. Another thing I think
it's interesting about in Sync is that you know they
put out No Strings Attached in two thousand and how

(20:13):
old were you when that came out? When you're like twelve.
I've always thought of that as like maybe the only
like meta boy band album, and that it's an album
that sort of comments on being a boy band. Uh,
just like the puppet imagery of the cover. I just
interpreted that as them sort of mocking the idea that

(20:35):
they were just puppets on a string for someone like
Lou Pearlman and they didn't have any town of their own.
They always had a really good sense of hearing about that,
You're right, I mean, And then there's the action figure
video too, and even celebrity the album. And I feel
like that self awareness also helped gravitate them past the

(20:56):
Backstreet Boys, who for all their attributes and we're going
to get into some of that later in this episode,
because we're both Backstreet Boys defenders, um, but I think
they had more old fashioned image and artistic sensibility and
in Sync was just more modern, and ultimately I think
that's what gravitated them, at least perception wise, because again,

(21:21):
like record sales tell a different story. But I just
feel like in retrospect when people talk about this era,
they tend to speak more favorably of in Sync, right
or am I wrong? No? It was really strange because
I came into this thinking that in Sync really, without
having studied any of the chart statistics and stuff, was
the bigger band by far and away a cultural influence

(21:41):
and sales wise, and that's sales wise at least very
much not the case. But you're right, there's something so
much more fun about them that I always got, you know.
I mean, like you said, the some people liked the
whole moody Backstreet Boys thing, but instinct kind of felt
more like it felt like the Beatles in a hard
day's night. To me, I always felt they were like
running around playing basketball, having like food fights, just just

(22:04):
I imagine that they lived like almost like in the
house and the Monkeys or something like. It just seemed
like they were having so much more of a good time.
And the self awareness was fun too. It kind of
like felt like they let you in on the joke,
and it made it okay to like a band that
seems so clearly manufactured and put together. It was like, yeah,
we know this is kind of goofy, but isn't this fun?
And yeah, I mean even the the beginning of the

(22:26):
pop video when when Justin's like talking to the woman
with the big bottle of pop in his hand, and
it just the plays on consumerism that seemed to be apparent,
and so much of their their um, their image and
their videos and the action figure one. Uh yeah, it's
definitely it feels more more fun, more inclusive, more more

(22:48):
in The self awareness especially does make it up so
much more just funny. Yeah, And I just feel like
if you were a kid, they just seemed like the
more fun band to be a fan of than Backstreet Boys.
Although again, I'm sure there are boy band fans listening
to this episode who think that's an insane take and
love the back Street Boys much more than in Sync.
But I just think like that postmodern aspect of in

(23:10):
Sync is just cooler ultimately than what back Street was doing,
and I just wonder if that was fueling the resentment
on the back Street Boys side, Although it's also clear
that like Lou Pearlman was stoking these flames too, right,
I mean, didn't he like pitting these guys against each other?
Oh yeah, it was like total like middle school lunch

(23:31):
room behavior. He would like bitch about you know, Oh man,
did you hear? What did you know what A J
said about about you? J T? Or something like. He
was just completely bitch to them about the other behind
their back and say that that they were both talking ship,
which was not true. It's like like completely not true.
But he liked having them apart both the sort of
stoked the rivalry just publicly. And also I don't think

(23:54):
he wanted them to talk because he probably didn't want
them to compare notes about business dealings, which were questionable,
very questionable, the old divide and conquer strategy, although I
guess and there they did have one true point of beef,
which I guess Chris Kirkpatrick said at one point that
he wanted to punch a J. McClean because he, uh,
he was dating a girl, like dating Chris's ex girlfriend.

(24:16):
And I guess a J started saying that, you know,
he was a bad boyfriend or something, and they had
like a little tiff. I think for a little while
there in the in the early two thousand's. But and
that's great too because they were like the respective bad
boys of their bands. I think Queen was like he
had McLean, had like you know, like the very finely
sculpted facial hair, and I think he had some tattoos
and the dreads. You know. Yeah, he was like the

(24:39):
bad boy of Backstreet and Chris Kirkpatrick. He's not really
a bad boy, but he had like the wackiest hair,
So I guess that default makes him the bad boy,
unless would J. C. Chase be the bad boy. I
always thought he was like he's like the one, like
the easily hurt one. He's like JT's wing man. He's

(25:00):
like and in the way he's like the most handsome
guy in the band. Oh yeah, j that's handsomer than
than than JT. But he doesn't have quite the chrisma
or the talent for tone. Is like the is the friend.
He's he's the fun guy. It lands bass, he's he's
just hanging out. He's there, he's Lanstine, he helps complete

(25:20):
the band name. So that's all the elements there. Um
And I feel like another dividing thing too, that occurred
at this time in the boy band world, was like
Johnny Wright, who, you know, if Perlman was like the
huckster of the boy band empire, I mean Johnny, right,
I think really was the visionary if you want to

(25:43):
use that word. Yeah, and I guess Batship Boys ultimately
gave him an ultimatum which was like, you know, all
right too, it's like you're gonna manage us and kind
of manage our career or in Sync and he ended
up going in Sync, and uh, I think that that
definitely caused some some pain. I don't think he really
wanted to choose, but but yeah, he ended up with
being with insinc which might be responsible for why we

(26:06):
kind of envisioned them now as still being the more
impactful and relevant and influential band too, maybe because he
had had that guiding for us. Yeah, and I think
Johnny Wright knew that he's going to hit his wagon
and j T and you know, like whatever, it's like
I'm gonna because you know, as as successful as as
Backstreet was, he could probably tell that those guys were

(26:29):
always going to be greater than the some of their parts,
whereas in Sync had like a really valuable asset in
the middle who was probably gonna eventually inevitably go out
in his own So I think Johnny Right was probably
savvy enough to recognize that in the moment. And I
always thought j C never got his dude too. I
always thought he could have been. I don't know if
he had, I don't know what it was, more more

(26:49):
of a personality, more something. I thought his voice was
just as good as in so many ways too well,
he didn't have the wherewithal to hook up with the Neptunes.
I think that was ulto and I guess in uh
Timberland later on, I mean, like just I think JT's
taste was the best in that band, and he was
the most discerning and knowing like what he should be

(27:10):
associated with. And I think that started in sync and
then it really took over for sure on his first
two albums as a solo artist. I think later on
he kind of loses his way a little bit. But
at the time, however, the war between Backstreet didn't sync.
It started to cool once this divide and conquers strategy

(27:30):
that that Loup Roman had started to break down, and
these guys actually started talking to each other and realizing
like how much they were being screwed. And it really
is like the age old tale of like signing a
bad record deal and uh, getting no money even though
you're being hugely successful, because it's all going to your
management and your record label, which I guess in this

(27:51):
case was the same person I mean because Loup Roleman,
because they were still were they still on trans Continental
at this time or they were they at a different labels.
I think they went to Mark Curry. And the only
reason I know that I remember that is because I
think John Mellencamp was also I believe on Mercury threatened
to leave if they did business with boy bands, So
I think that they had some kind of I don't

(28:11):
know if it's a distribution deal or what, but I
think they're involved with Mercury at that time. I wonder
if if Cougar has like met justin Termber like since then,
I feel like those two would probably get along because
I mean, now JT is just like a middle aged dad,
so he probably likes Cougar Mellencamp by now. Um, But yeah,

(28:33):
I mean there was this instance I think with the
Backstreet Boys, like where they made like ten million dollars
for lou Pearlman in the nineties and they were in together.
They made three thousand dollars, which comes out to sixty
grand apiece, you know, which means that they were being
paid what you know people get paid for, you know,
computer programming basically, uh, actually computer programmers probably make a

(28:56):
lot more than that, you know. The point is that
they were like one of the biggest pop bands in
the world, and they were making a fraction of what
they were generating. And the thing that I never understood
because I thought he would have been smarter than this,
instead of just kind of silently ripping them off and
just kind of saying, oh, yeah, it's given me more
of that kind more more of that came from kind
of the classic huckster manager line. He made a big

(29:17):
show of presenting him this tiny check. I think it
was in sync they he invited him at the dinner
at some fancy steakhouse and on the plates in front
of him, they all had an envelope and on his account,
they reached down and opened them all up and looked
at them and there were checks for ten thousand dollars.
And this is after selling you know, ten million records
or whatever. And I guess. I think in Lance's autobiography

(29:39):
says that he just like ripped the check up on
the spot and that was when he knew, like, Okay,
there's something up with lou There's something wrong here. Uh.
And yeah, I love the story though about like how
all these guys bonded because there was this charity basketball
game that Justin and j C were playing in from

(29:59):
in saying, and Brian and Nick from Backstreet were, you know,
in the same game, and then they all went to
McDonald's afterwards, which, by the way, like how awesome would
it be to be at McDonald's in and you see,
you know, these heads of boy band empires walk in
to discuss how they're being ripped off by their manager.

(30:22):
But yes, yes, the mcflurry summit of or wherever it was.
But yeah, I mean they started talking and they realized like, wow,
you're not making any money and we're not making any money,
and Louke Roman is like rolling around in money naked
on beds with you know, why did our bills spread everywhere?

(30:45):
Take that out of my head right now, I'm sorry.
The point is is that Louke Roman's rich and we're not,
and we need to do something about this right, And
I think it was Briany went first and said, we
were going to file law. We have to. I think UM,
someone in Uncle or something took a look at the
contract and called it the single worst contract he'd ever

(31:05):
seen in his history of practicing entertainment law. Really really
bad news. Um. It was a extremely ugly, uh court
battle for for both of them. Um. I think Back
Street Boys were able to buy themselves out of his
contract for something like thirty million and instant. It was
a little worse. I mean, I don't know if you'd
call it David and Goliath, but not far off. The
label was basically saying, you know, he owns you, he

(31:29):
owns the name, he owns I think the masters actually
he like, you can't win this. But they found a
loophole in their contract where I forget exactly. It's a
lot of legal minutia, but I think the fact that
they signed it when they were in Germany and the
contract was only valid and if they signed in the
United States it was something weird like that about where
they were when they signed it, UH, got them sort

(31:50):
of a loophole to to end up getting out of it.
And UM, the result for both of the bands was
um incredible albums that both kind of obliquely referenced this
whole UH saga. The one that kind of most directly
does is Um Instincts No Strings Attached, which you said
earlier is kind of a reference to cutting the strings
of the puppet Master. They see it on the cover

(32:11):
and in the video for for Bye Bye Bye, which
I always thought was a very telling title for I
think their first single after the Perlman UH debacle. But Um,
this album, No Strings Attached sold two point four million
copies in its first week in two thousand, which there
was a record that held until for Adele. I mean,

(32:33):
just absolutely insane amount and not too I guess they
were kind of getting along at this point, but Backstreet
probably wasn't too happy that about that because they had
held the record before that with Millennium for I think
it was one point five million in its first week
something like that. But yeah, it's like the steroid era
for the record sales. I mean, and this is like, right,
Napster is starting to hit critical mass, Like you know,

(32:56):
Napster starts to become a thing in on college campuses,
and it's really going to start taking over in the
early odds, but like right before that, it was like
the fall of Rome. You know, like we're partying hardcore,
you know, just total decadence and drunk on team pop
money at this time and uh No students attached sort

(33:19):
of like the height of that before everything started to
fall apart for record sales. You can almost kind of
see it in the back Street Boys next album, which
was called black and Blue, as they said, sort of
a reference to the way that their their former mentor
had bruised them, and that didn't sell quite as much.
It's almost like, like you said, those things attached was
the apex and started going down a little bit. And

(33:39):
then um in Sync's next album, Celebrity Too, didn't sell
as well. I know that's still sold a ridiculous amount,
but but yeah, Backstreet and uh in Sync. They later
said that their fights, boy band fights, are like hockey fights.
It looks real bad on TV, but afterwards you go
out and have a beer and they um, I think
Lance ended up telling People magazine, you know, this whole

(34:00):
thing with Lou really brought us together more and and
and their their buds kind of so they become buds
as we enter into the odds, and it's an interesting
period for both of these groups because as they become bonded,
their careers end up taking very different paths. Like you've
in Sync who they put out Celebrity, as you mentioned

(34:20):
after no Students Attached, and that record does really great
by pretty much anyone's standards other than in Sync, Like
it's not as big of a hit as No Strings Attached.
And more importantly, Justin timber Lake is getting going on
his solo career, and you know, I revisited the first
two timber Lake records getting ready for this podcast, and

(34:41):
I gotta say, man justified um his debut. I think
it's like one of the best pop records of the
last twenty years. I mean, that is such a great record,
and people talk about future sex Love Sounds, uh being
I think his artistic pinnacle, which I think that's a
great record too. But it to me, like when I

(35:03):
look at Justin timber Lake's career, it's hard not to
look at in Sync as successful as they were, as
like a preamble to like those records, um, at least
artistically speaking, because I think that is really like some
of the best music that came out of the team
pop wave of the of the late nineties. Like if
you want to talk about how like with Michael Jackson,

(35:26):
Off the Wall and Thriller were like a combination of
his journey from being a motown child star then moving
on through the seventies and then he gets to make
those records. Like I'm not saying those records are as
good as Off the Wall and Thriller, but like I
think for timber Lake, that's as good as he got
in terms of making pop music. Uh, wouldn't you agree?

(35:48):
I mean, to me, like those kind of overshadow everything
that he did and in sync. Oh yeah, I mean
in the same way that I like Off the Wall
more than Thriller. I like Justified more than feature sex
love sounds, which I think a lot of those songs
on Justified weren't they sort of not rejects but songs
that Michael Jackson passed on for Invincible. I think at
least a couple of them are, right. Yeah, I've never

(36:11):
I'm not quite sure if that's true or if that
is just urban legends. Like I've heard that mentioned, and
it seems like, you know, like a sound like rock
your Body for instance, that just seems like such a
great homage to Off the Wall era Michael Jackson that
it's like, oh, why didn't Michael Jackson record this? I
think if that were true? Um but I think in

(36:32):
a way, you know, again, we've we've had this thing
where were where we both feel like in Sync seems
more popular than the Backstreet Boys, even though the Backstreet
Boys statistically sold more records. Um, I really think that
people maybe just add Justin timberlake solo career to the
legacy of in Sync, even though in Sync by two
thousand and seven they were officially finished by then and

(36:55):
they've never gotten back together. Um. But in a way,
I feel like Justin Chamberlake is to carry the torch
forward for them, and maybe that's affected how we perceive
these two groups, and it's kind of ensured in a
way to in Sync transcended their era in a way
that the back Street Boys didn't. Wouldn't you say, yeah,
it's right. I mean Justin Timberlakes still getting chart hits,

(37:17):
whereas Backstreet Boys. I don't really think that the stuff
that the song they did with like New Kids on
the Block for example, Like I don't really think of
it as being quite as relevant in the same way.
I mean, they the fact that they're still going is
you know, really great. And you know, I'm trying to
be kinder. They've got their Vegas residency and they released
a bunch of albums since then. But yeah, it's just

(37:39):
it feels like kind of you know, Elvis in Vegas
era to me, like it, it feels nostalgia heavy, which is,
you know, a noble career. I'm not trying to knock
that at all or what they did do, which again,
I think they sold a hundred and thirty million albums
total worldwide, most successful boy band ever. I mean that
that's a hell of a legacy. If you're got to
coast on your legacy, that's a good one that was done.

(38:00):
But yeah, there's something about that that j T is
still out there releasing stuff. It makes it feel like
Instinct's presence is kind of the specter of in Sync
is still on the charts. Yeah, I mean, I think
I think the Backstreet Boys, like if I think you
got to give it to them in terms of like
how they've been able to maintain their audience because they
are still really they still have a lot of fans.
I think I think the difference is that justin Timberlake

(38:22):
sort of got out of that niche of boy bands
where he became sort of like a pop star for everybody,
not just for people that were into that kind of music. Um,
you know, I actually covered a Backstreet Boys concert in
two thousand one when I was a young newspaper reporter
and it was the first show that a J. McClean
performed after he went to rehab It's history and like, yeah, man,

(38:47):
historic gig, and uh, I mean the audience at that
show was insane, you know. I mean they were super
into the into them, and that was still like they
were still like a pretty big band at that point.
They were you know, they were playing at a sold
out arena, you know, and they were just tons of
screaming women like throughout that that entire show. But yeah,

(39:08):
like as the odds go on, you just see that
their albums become not irrelevant. I mean they're still selling
in good numbers, but yeah, it just starts to shrink,
uh in terms of like I guess they're greater fame
and they become, like you said, more of a nostalgia
act something that like if you were thirteen years old
and two thousand. Now you're in your mid thirties and

(39:31):
you're gonna get together with like your junior high friends
and go see the Backstreet Boys and and and it
kind of relive your youth. I mean, that's what their
career is now. And you know it's funny. I mean
I asked a lot of friends just out of pure curiosity,
because I really truly believe in sync far and away.
I guess I live in a in sync house, you know.
I just that I'm surrounded by people that that's their band.

(39:53):
So it definitely contributed to my bias. But I asked
around and it was a straight fifty split. It Backstreet
Boys in Sync and and the Backstreet Boy fans were
extremely passionate. And I gotta say it's a great book
coming up by Maria Sherman, incredible writer for Jezebel, called
um Larger than Life boy Band History, and I read

(40:14):
it last night just I couldn't put it down. It
was so good and just it's just so funny to
me how it's just the boy band continuum. I mean,
going back from you could even call the Beatles even,
I mean, with all the early n bubble gum type
stuff that they were selling and all the marketing and everything.
It's just fascinating that that continuum continues through to like

(40:37):
you know, the wanted and in one direction, and it's
I'm really curious about the whole phenomenon, but just what
it does to people and why people get so passionate
about it. I mean, I know, like rock fans love
their band and you know, do or Die Zeppelin versus
you know, the Who or something like that, or Spiels

(40:57):
versus Stones, or Oasis versus Blur. But I don't think
I've ever seen people be so passionate about a boy
band or a band rivalry then about in Sync versus
Backstreet Boys, at least for the ones we've done so far.
It's crazy. It's funny because for the bands themselves, they
pretty much deny now that they ever had a rivalry.
I mean when they talk about it, you know now,

(41:19):
like they'll they'll talk about each other in complimentary turns,
maybe sometimes like make like you know, kind hearted jabs
at each other, but it seems like they want to
put all that behind them and just pretty much put
it on lou Perlman, like it seems like he is
now the villain of this story rather than rather than them,

(41:40):
you know, sort of going head to head against each other. Yeah,
although I think Joey challenged him like a basketball showdown
and said that in Sync could kick Backstreet Boys ass
on the basketball court, which I would love to see personally,
I think so Again, I feel like, like Kevin Richardson
from back Street Boys, wasn't he like fifty two years
old or something when he joined that band? I mean
that dude seem like a middle aged man immediately in

(42:03):
that Yeah, every I mean I every boy band seems
to have that one member that like looks like he's
sort of like the chaperone. I guess Chris Kirkpatrick, I think,
and instinct played that role. But they gave him like
the wacky sides hiwbob hair though, so he kind of
could pass for a young person. Whereas Richardson, I just
picture him wearing like a smoking jacket and smoking a

(42:24):
pipe and maybe like a back brace or something. It
seemed like so much older. Yeah, No, he used to
like freak me out. He just and those like piercing
eyes too. It was Yeah, there was definitely some like
it seemed like he'd like seen some ship and like
maybe that was contributed definitely the whole moody image of
the Backstreet place. But yeah, no, there was he kind

(42:44):
of stuck out from me. You're totally right, all right hand.
We'll be right back with more rivals. So let's talk
about the pro cases for each side. We'll start with
the Backstreet Boys. We've talked about this already in the episode.

(43:08):
But um, they are the most successful boy band of
all time in terms of records sold. Like you said,
it's like a hundred and thirty million records and uh,
which just dwarfs the number of records that in Sync
is sold. That I think back Street also put has
put out more albums too, so that's helped them get there.

(43:28):
But um, you know, like we were saying, I I
think the case that the group themselves might make is
that they are more of a band than in Sync.
Was that there is a sense of the some being
you know, greater than than the parts. Um. And if

(43:49):
you want to look at that from a negative perspective,
you could say that, well, that's because there aren't any
breakout stars on the level of a gist of a
justin timber Lake in the Backstreet Boys, but in terms
of the long term like longevity. Um, you know, there's
no question that that parody that exists in the back
Street Boys, it's helped keep them together. Um. I also

(44:10):
say two and I think you agree with this. I
think I want it that way is the great song
of the boy Banderah like. It is the best song
that any that either of these groups have put out.
I might argue that I like more in sync songs
than Backstreet Boys songs, but I don't like any in
sync song as much as I want it that way. Yeah,

(44:31):
that's exactly how I feel, despite the fact I still
have no idea what it means. Yeah, you know, I
was looking at the lyrics of this song and Okay,
so in the chorus that goes, I don't want to
hear you say, ain't nothing but a heartache, Ain't nothing
but a mistake, and he says, I never want to
hear you say I want it that way. But like
in the verses, he's the recurring motif is that he

(44:54):
does want it that way. It's like they're arguing over
who gets to say that they want it that way?
Is how I've I've read it. Yeah, I it's definitely
I mean I think Max Martin even said like, oh yeah,
I wrote that when my my English wasn't that good. Uh,
And that's I think they recorded a version where the
lyrics actually made sense in English, and it they played

(45:15):
it back and they had like focus testing and stuff,
and it just didn't sound the same. It just didn't
have the same It just didn't roll off the tongue.
I guess as well. And so they went with a
version that you know, kind of looks like a Google
Translate mistake. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. But there's
that part at the end, like where the chord changes
and you know, the song lifts up. It's like the
dramatic climax of the song and it's like I don't care,

(45:39):
like how much of a badass you think you are,
you listen to that part of the song. It is like,
you know, scientifically engineered to give you the chills. Like
that is such a rousing part of that song, and
it really what I think makes that song such a
transcendent like pop standard. And you know the best part

(46:00):
is then they saved that moment in the video for
when all the fans are like on the tarmac too,
So it's not that moment doesn't just belong to Backstreet Boys.
That belongs to the fans too, which is like, yeah,
all right, I always appreciated that. So I mean, do
you do you agree that? I mean, essentially, like that
is what their case rests on. If you're gonna argue,
in fact on behalf of the Backstreet Boys, it's it's

(46:23):
I want it that way, and it's their longevity as
a band. Yeah. I would also say that clearing the
way for in Sync. Um. I mean I again, like
we were talking earlier, I don't know how InSync would
have done if they had been the first one out,
but I think that they definitely benefited from even just
just managerial mistakes and stuff like that that that Backstreet
Boys had gone on before through them. So I think
that adding to the cases that in Sync benefited too,

(46:46):
and a lot of the bands that followed. I mean,
they were the first at the gate for boy bands
of the late nineties degrees Ohtown, Alfo, and then even
like British imports like Westlife and five and Boys Zoned.
I think that, um, you know, on the the sort
of boy band pyramid, they're sort of the Keyston. Yeah,
So you would say that they're they're the Nirvana of

(47:06):
boy bands. Yes, that's exactly what I would say. I
like that a lot, so I guess, I guess and
I want it that way. Then would be the smells
like teen spirit of of of boy bands like just
kicked down the door for so many other bands, just
changed the world. Um going over the instinct side, and
we we reiterated this already, I think that the case

(47:28):
for them is that even though that they know, even
though they're not technically as successful as the Backstreet Boys,
they are perceived to be more successful. And in a way,
I think that speaks to the relevance that they have
now they just seem to be the band that is
I hate to use this word, but they seem cooler
than the Backstreet Boys, uh, And I think that has

(47:50):
fed into their legacy. And the other thing Insinct has
again is justin timber Lake. And you can say that
Backstreet is more of a band, there's maybe more of
a spirit among the members, But because in Sync had
justin timber Like, I think it just gave them irrelevance
that goes beyond boy bands and goes beyond that sort
of late nineties early odds epic that all these groups

(48:12):
were on. It just extended the life of that group
in a way, even though the group itself, you know,
it's no longer together. Oh yeah. And that's not even
to diminish what he did during the band's time together too.
I mean, he was an incredible songwriter and uh gone
was nominated for a Grammy, and then he wrote the
song girlfriend with with Nellie and I think that was
when he first teamed up with the Neptunes, to which

(48:34):
obviously worked out really well for all music fans. Uh.
And then just like his relevance and pop culture at
the time too, I mean, dating Britney Spears was like God,
that was like, what are our James Taylor and Carly
Simon or something and our our pop super couple. By
the way, we had to do a JT and Brittany
episode at something because Man, when I revisited Cry Like

(48:56):
a River the other day, I was like, Damn, this
is a brutal song, savage, and uh it seems a
little unfair, you know, Yeah, but it's such a great
song that you forgive it when you're listening to it.
But yeah, that that's definitely gonna be something we need
to talk about at some point, you know, you said
James Taylor and h Carly Simon. There's also some Lindsay

(49:18):
and Stevie elements to them as well, even though they
weren't in the same band. They weren't in the same band,
but like in terms of you know, just sniping at
each other through their songs. Uh, you know, there's a
there's a rich history there. But anyway, that's a tangent
for another day. I also feel like not to sleep
on Lance Bass. I just think his cultural influence is
not only a gay icon, but he was gonna be

(49:38):
trying to be the youngest astronaut in the space, which
I don't know if you're gonna go from being a
boy in a boy band, I don't know, maybe like
be a manager of another boy band, or maybe going
the pr like when your boy band closes down, going
to acting maybe, But he wanted to be an astronaut,
and I just want to say, I think that's really cool.
I just want to like shot that out. I think
that's like an awesome that that that's part of my

(49:59):
pro in sync cases, the fact that Lance wanted to
go to space. He didn't quite make it, but still
is that the first time anyone is uttered the phrase
don't sleep on Lance Bass. I don't think anyone has
ever said that ever, So congratulations on breaking that don't
sleep on Lance Bass Barrier. Um. In terms of these
two groups together, yeah, I mean, I think I think

(50:20):
we've made it pretty clear that you know, at the
time they were pitted against each other in part by
design by lou Perlman. But again, to give lou Perlman
some credit, I do think that, you know, rather than
canceling each other out, I think that these groups actually
helped each other because they both existed at the same time.
It made the Backstreet Boys not seem like as much

(50:42):
of a novelty. And it also I think gave in
Sync something to strive for. You know, if they felt
like they were less than at that time, you know,
they could look at Backstreet as like a goal that
they could try to, you know, attain their status. And
I think one thing that we've found on this show

(51:03):
is that when you have some conflict and you give
people a choice, UM, it doesn't like dampen people's enthusiasm.
Actually like brings it up and it makes people more excited.
So I think, Um, I think the evidence shows that
they actually helped each other in their careers, you know,
as much as they might have thought at the time
that they were maybe threatening each other's bottom line. I mean,

(51:24):
don't you think, Yeah, you know, And I never really
thought about the argument about how instinct kind of legitimized
the Backstreet Boys is not a fluke, is not this
sort of like you know, the Monkeys, kind of stand alone, successful,
prefab thing. You're right, And by giving people the choice,
I think it was in Maria Sherman's new book that's
coming out in July. It um, it's like the Beatles

(51:45):
on the Stones. You see the group that you personally
identify with. By having that choice, you see the attributes
that you yourself see. You know, I'm a Beatles guy.
I'm an instinct guy, sort more playful fund doesn't take
things seriously kind of thing that people that that like
the moody, dark, brooding side and the sort of more
dangerous rock and roll. I'm gonna put you know, in

(52:07):
sync is definitely the Beatles in the scenario, and Backstreet
Boys are definitely the Stones. I just having that dichotomy
is you're right, It's it says more about us than
it does about either band too, So I think you're
wrong on that. I think in Sync is the Stones
and I think back Street is the Beatles. Well, I
think yeah, because well, first of all, the Beatles were first,
just like the Backstreet Boys, I think the I think

(52:27):
the Backstreet Boys had more of a button up image
in the same way that the Beatles did. I think
in Sync was the looser again, more kind of kid
friendly band. If you want to say that they were rebellious,
I think they were probably more rebellious than the Backstreet Boys.
I mean they were rebelling against their own manager on
the cover of their record No Strings Attached. You know,
they were much more upfront about challenging the machine. You know,

(52:51):
if you will, then the Backstreet Boys were so insinc
Definitely the Stones, Backstreet definitely the Beatles. All right, I
would say that's it's a fascinating take. I hadn't considered.
But you know, this has got to be probably the
happiest ending of any few we've ever done, and possibly
we'll ever do. I mean, you know, they overcame the prejudices,

(53:12):
teamed up, corrected grave injustices got what they deserve. The
bad guy went to jail made some cool tunes. It's like,
I don't know, like an episode of Scooby Doo or
something like. It's such a great like after school special ending.
You know, I think it's safe to say to you
that they both wanted it that way. They do want
to hear you say it. Not not I don't want

(53:33):
to hear you say it. They do want to hear
you say it because again, that is the proper way
to write that song, right, like the ideas that you
want her to say. I want it that way because
it's the way you want it, right, You want that correct,
you want her to want it too. I think he's
saying like, I'm your fire, I'm your desire. I want

(53:53):
it that way, and I want you to want it
that way. I really you know what I want no
way I want it. I want to hear you sing it.
I know you said you could sing every word. I
would love to hear you sing it, maybe in our
next episode. I got it before that. Which boy band type?
Or would you be? Stephen? I know, I know, I
know what I would be, but I wanna hear you first.

(54:15):
What would you be? I would either be probably, I
mean realistically, I would like to be the sweet one.
I would probably be the one who looks prematurely old
because in high school I used to get shown hall
passes from the underclassman because I thought it was a teacher.
So I probably would be the Chris Kirkpatrick or or
Kevin Richardson one who just looks like way too old

(54:35):
to be there. But um, yeah, that's if I'm honest. Uh,
I'm gonna be Joey for Tone because because I'm also
I'm I'm a total Joey fat One too, so you know,
I'll be Stevie fat One. Um. On that note, I
think it's time for us to go. So thank you
all for listening to this episode of Rivals, and I

(54:57):
hope you will enjoyed some see Granize Dancing with your
best Friends sometime in the future. Rivals is a production
of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are shaun Tytone
and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chacogne and
Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden.

(55:20):
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