Mike Love vs. Brian Wilson: Beach Brawl

At the heart of the Beach Boys, one of America's biggest bands ever, are two men: Brian Wilson and Mike Love. Brian is the songwriter and resident genius, and Mike is the cocksure frontman. For most of the 1960s, their partnership worked as the Beach Boys scored dozens of hits. But a conflict over the magnum opus "Pet Sounds" revealed that Brian was out to pursue high art at all costs, while Mike prefered to stick with "the formula." For the next 50 years, this battle has raged over what truly constitutes the "real" Beach Boys.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
This is Rivals, show about music feuds and beefs and
long swimming resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and I'm Jordan's

(00:24):
and today we're gonna get to probably what might be
one of the saddest feuds that's out there. Don't you
think it's really it's a lot. Yeah, this is like
a tale of good and evil as stark as it
could be. It's like it's a Greek tragedy. It is,
and I mean it's hard for me to think of
like a more obvious hero and a more sort of

(00:45):
clear cut villain. Although I think we'll find in this
episode that maybe it's a little more great, like not
a lot more great. No, no, no, I think I
think it's pretty clear who's evil and who's good in
this morning. In case you can't tell from that very
vivid description, we're talking thinking about the Beach Boys, Brian
Wilson and Mike Love. Now, inter band feuds always have

(01:05):
an extra lay of hostility, just born from decades spent
fighting for the window seat and touring vans and competing
for space on albums. But when the bandmates are related
that's just a whole other layer of of bile and
spite and and decades of resentment, right, I mean, just
asked the Gallaghers. Yeah, I mean yeah, the Gallaghers and

(01:26):
the Davies brothers and all the way down the line.
I mean, they're not brothers, their cousins. But yeah, there
is that. There's no kissing cousins in this scenario. Let's
just put it that way, all right, Let's dive into
this mess now. Of course, the Beach Boys are three brothers, Brian, Dennis,

(01:48):
Carl Wilson, their cousin Mike Love as you said, and
their friend Al Jardine. They were raised in California, which
is hopefully not news, and if it is, you're in
for a really long show. And I thought they were
from Miami. I thought it was the Miami because there's
beaches down there. King, Can you imagine if the Beach
Boys are actually from Miami? Just feel like that would
just warp their whole set, the whole American mythology of

(02:09):
like the Florida myth. Can you imagine that? Like, oh man, yeah,
it's like it's not as seductive the Florida myth. It's like, yeah,
come down and uh, you know, start a meth lab
and maybe become a serial killer, and he screw up
an election, you know, exactly. No, it's not not as
romantic as the California But but Brian and Mike both

(02:32):
came from unhappy homes. And I don't want to dwell
on this too much and bum everybody out even more
than we already will in this episode, but they're sort
of early life really does set the stage for their relationship,
both to music and the relationship to conflicts. Now with Brian,
you have the Wilson patriarch Murray, who never won Father
of the Year. He probably gets the the Marvin gay

(02:54):
Senior Award for bad dads. In case you don't know,
Marvin one of the true worst dads in rock history.
I mean you mentioned Marvin Gaye's dad. He actually killed
his son, so he's probably worse. But Murray is. He's
getting the silver medal for terrible dads in rock history.
He verbally and physically abused all the boys, and in

(03:17):
later years all these stories came out. Some are probably
not true, like him whacking Brian with a two by four,
and that's the reason why Brian was deaf in one year.
That's a story that he that he put out there
in later years, maybe didn't happen. There's another story that
I think might be true where Murray had a glass
eye and he used to to punish the kids take

(03:38):
out the glass eye and make them stare into the
socket when they had misbehaved. Like, oh, he's really like Gothic,
like almost like Edward Edgar Allan Poe like lost short story.
So anyway, it's clear that the Wilson brothers had a
bad childhood. Yeah. I mean I feel like the most
pertinent thing with Murray is that he was like a
hackey musician, right, I mean he tried to have his

(03:58):
own music career, and I mean did he have any
success song on Lawrence Welk called two Steps Side Step
and that was kind of like the extent of it
was like just enough to give him connections, just enough
to give him the bug, but but nothing really happened
for him. But that was the one way that the
boys kind of learned to uh, to get their father

(04:19):
to chill out, is that they would they would singing.
That was like really the only way to his heart.
Um and Brian was he was very good at singing.
He displayed musical gifts very early on, as like a toddler.
He started singing, and he was kind of a self
taught savant really. He would um listen to a jazz
group that he loved, jazz vocal group called the Four Freshmen,

(04:40):
and um, it's a quartet. And he used to just
listen to their albums for hours and go to the
piano and figure out note by note all their harmonies
and how they all fit together. And he would teach
him to his brothers and his parents. So sort of
Brian's relationship to Brian used music as a as a
humph like mullion if you will, it soothes the conflicts

(05:03):
in the household and um, and that really sort of
defines his relationship to music, I think in a lot
of ways too. And then you have Mike Love. The
Wilson's cousin came came from a much wealthier home and
uh and their families didn't get along well. The Loves
and the Wilson's. I think Mike actually described them in
later years as like the hot Fields and McCoy's. But

(05:23):
on Christmas they would get together and set aside their
differences and and sing Carols, which is basically the story
of the Beach Boys, a lot of fighting, and then said,
like Mike Club's family that they all were like white
pants and like striped shirts, like I just imagine them,
you know, I guess because that's how I pictured Mike Love.
In the sixties, two really bad things happened back to

(05:44):
back to Mike, which I think scarred him for the
rest of his life. One he graduates high school, no
no prospects. He's pumping gas, and he gets his girlfriend pregnant.
His parents as really you know, a very common tale
in that era, freak out. His mom finds out, dumps
all his clothes in the driveway and kicks him out.
Even Mike's dad is blown away by how how savage

(06:06):
this is. She's so angry. And then Mike also loses
his part time job at the sheet metal shop that
his dad runs, and the sheet metal shop goes Belliott
goes out of business right away. That the Love family
had lived in this really affluent neighborhood, this beautiful house,
they lose their home. The Love dad the sheet metal Empire,

(06:27):
like the sheet metal Empire. They were sheep, they were
they were sheet metal magnates. In southern California in the
early sixties. Uh, it's really sad, but Mike, Mike's dad's
borrowing money from his teenage kids. It's like, it's really bad.
So he sees how he can go from having everything
to nothing right away, and the fear that a lot

(06:49):
of sort of conservative people have that what you have
will be taken from you. So he's in a real
desperate spot for money, and he appeals to his cousin Brian,
who's musically minded, to start a band. And then thus
you have the Beach Boys, and thus you kind of
already see Brian Mike approaching music from very different aims.
For Mike it's about business and financial security, and that

(07:09):
makes sense given his upbringing. And for Brian it's about
something different. It's it's a way of setting himself, a
part of self protection in a way and in a
lot of ways, dealing with all the feelings they're inside
of him. Does maelstrom of emotions that this is really
his only outlet. So that so really so so put
another way, really you could say that Mike Love he

(07:32):
he looked at music as a way to attain sheet
metal like fortune in his in his life whereas Brian
looked at music as a way to achieve transcendence by
not being hit in the head with a board by
his father. That is that is a fair Yes, that's
a beautiful way to put it. Um. It's like, if
I can write the most beautiful music of all time,

(07:54):
my dad won't whack me up upside that you won't
make me look at his eye socket. Yes, yes, that's
and that's why we have guy only knows. I think
I just ruined ruined pet sounds for all of our listeners.
I'm really sorry that now, whenever you hear that song,
you'll think of all that horrible stuff. The initial schism
in the Beach Boys that's really present to this day

(08:16):
occurred when Brian quit touring. He hated the road, he
hated flying, he hated everything about it. And Brian was
the chief mastermind behind the Beach Boys. He wrote essentially
almost all the mean almost all the music. Come on,
if you listen to the show. I mean, do we
have to reel up the many hits that Brian Wilson

(08:36):
has written. No, You're You're fun, fun, fun, don't worry baby,
round in my room girl. Basically, any any song with like,
didn't he really Jan and deedon songs too. Yeah, he
wrote Surf City and it was his first number one,
and his dad was pissed. He's like, you gave that
song away? What do you talk? What are you doing?
It is like, next time you write a number one,

(08:57):
write it for us. So it's like when I wrote
two Step PoCA or whatever that song was called, I
kept it for myself. I wouldn't give two step what
was it called, too step on two steps side step?
I think it was called. If any Murray Wilson fans
please tweet me he would. Murray would not have given
two step sized step to Jan and Dean, I'll tell
you that much. He would have kept that for himself.

(09:18):
So anyway, So so Brian Wilson. He's the mastermind of
the Beach Boys. He's written tons of songs, and Mike
Love is the balding sex symbol at the top of
the band and in his at least on stage, and
and sacks soloist occasionally to um it's already quinte sad.
But it would be like two solos, it would be like, well,
like four or nine would be like my my, my,

(09:40):
my mo. Yeah, I don't know how good he was
at Sacks, but but he was not very good. But
but Brian has a nervous breakdown on a flight to
a show in Texas in December ninetour that just completely
overwhelmed by the pressure to to write hits, produced the hits,
sing the hits, go on the road, and play the

(10:01):
hits to everybody. It's just is too much for him.
He decides that he's going to stay home and right
and produced and handle all the studio work while the
rest of the boys gone the road. And this kind
of creates two separate Beach Boys. There's the Beach Boys,
the touring unit which Mike Love fronts as sort of
the cavorting but Turbans Sequins frontman. And then you have

(10:27):
this very balding already balding already I think he was,
you know, he must have been balding like in grade school.
I can't imagine Mike Love ever having like a full
head of hair. Uh, it would just be weird. I guess.
I do. Like Glenn Campbell was in the Beach Boys
at that point to where because he replaced Brian Wilson, Yeah,

(10:47):
I think initially, and then Bruce Johnston initially. He eventually
became the permanent replacement on the road. But Glenn Campbell
of later Ryan Stone, Cowboy Fame and many other hits,
uh was in the Beach Boys for a while at
that time. Yeah, I honestly think it was just because
he like because Brian's very tall and Glenn is also
very tall. Was a part of me that almost thinks
he just fit in like Brian stagewear and stuff, because

(11:10):
they were both like well over six ft. But um,
so there are two and so there's the touring unit
of the Beach Boys, and then there's Brian in the studio,
and he wants to push the envelope. He wants to
compete with Phil Specter, who's his hero. He he loves
the whole wall of sound technique where he's just creating
these little pop symphonies. And he also loves the Beatles.

(11:33):
He and their their Capitol Records labelmates. A lot of ways,
he felt that the Beatles kind of ate the Beach
Boys lunch when they came over in sixty four. All
of a sudden, the Beach Boys were the biggest thing
in the country, and then the Beatles game and totally
clips them and and he he couldn't even get mad
about it because they were so damn good. But Brian
has this real competitive drive that comes out in the

(11:54):
studio to create these increasingly complex songs, complex harmonies, complex
vocal arrangement and complex instrumental arrangements that he calls upon
this group of studio um session players called the Wrecking Crew,
who are you know now legendary. There's documentaries about them,
books about them. So the touring unit and the studio

(12:14):
unit Beach Boys are kind of fundamentally at odds if
you think about it, because what is the touring group
didn't want to do? They want to get out there,
play the familiar songs that people love with what they
have available. Smell the grease paint, right, meet the girls,
the rock stars. And then you have Brian Wilson who

(12:36):
wants to make Pets Sounds the greatest album of all time,
which he does and it's incredible. But like Mike Love, who,
as we said earlier, is evil incarnate, he hates Pets Sounds.
How can you hate Pets Sounds? Yeah? He how can
you hate pet Sounds? Jordan's you know why? Because he

(12:59):
messed with the formula uh uh, that's it. Don't funk
with your formula. That was the thing. That's the quote
from this period, don't funk with the formula, which Blank
Love said. And did Tony Asher say that? He said
that it was at Van Dyke Parks. I think it
was um one of it was someone another one of
Brian's associates. It wasn't them. I think it was Michael

(13:21):
VOSSI I think was his name, one of one of
the Beach Boys started their own label, and I think
it was one of their their label executives, Um. Mike
Love has frequently denied that he has said this. He's
also frequently denied that he hates pet Sounds. He said
he had a couple of issues with it though, with
Pet Sounds, and they were pretty much as follows. Brian
recorded the instrumental tracks for pet Sounds while the Beach Boys,

(13:44):
the touring group, were on tour in Japan, and they
come home from playing being a rock and roll band
playing all you know, fun fun fun, I get around
just as like a guitar, bass and drums group to
cheering crowds in Japan, and Brian plays them this almost
classical sounding with music with harpsichords and thereman's and o

(14:07):
bo's and accordions, all this stuff, clarinets, and it's just
wildly different than anything they had done before. This is
not this does not sound like rock and roll to him.
And this is before Sergeant Pepper. I mean, like my
Paul McCartney famously hears pet Sounds and that's like the
inspiration for him to push the Beatles to make Sergeant Pepper.
But before Pet Sounds, that really wasn't like a rock record.

(14:31):
That that was that elaborate, you know, and Mike Love
just couldn't handle it, just blew his mind, you know.
And the other thing that he really hated too, with
the with the lyrics. He really and part of it
was personal because he actually wrote a lot of the
lyrics to a lot of the early Beach Boy hits.
And for this album, Brian asked Tony Asher, who was
I feel like he would have been like on Madman.

(14:52):
He was. He was an ad copywriter, very sort of
like a jazz fan, very sophisticated, and he really didn't
he didn't know almost anything that the Beach Boys had
done at all. And for Brian, this was great. It
was a totally fresh blood, new approach and something totally different.
But Mike he was threatened by this because not only
was his role as lyricists in the band threatened, but

(15:13):
also there was one song in particular. Do you know
this song that he really hated, don't hang on to
your Ego? Yeah, there was a song called that that
was the title hang on your Ego and hang on
to your Ego, the idea of like lst like shattering
your ego, right, I mean it wasn't like the drug
connotations basically of that song that like Mike Love objected to. Yeah,
he called it what he called it nauseating. He said

(15:34):
that some of the words were so totally offensive to
me that I wouldn't even sing him because I thought
it was too nauseating. He his stomach was wrenching trying
to sing hang onto your Ego and by the way,
like my love. You know, there were if you listen
to early Beach Boys records, there's like songs about like
like root beer on those records, and like songs about
like amusement parks, you know. But it's like, you know,

(15:57):
like he wrote lyrics about like like riot by Year,
and he was cool with that, but like a song
about how taking mine altering substances takes away your sense
of self and therefore allows you to elevate to a
higher plane of existence. That was offensive to him at
this time. So that was Mike Love's mentality. I mean,

(16:19):
it's interesting because, like you know, the dynamic that we're
talking about here on Pet Sounds, this idea of Brian
Wilson wanted to be musically progressive and Mike Love wanted
to maintain the identity of the Beach Boys that was
already established. And it seems like that is what ends
up being the recurring conflict between these two guys throughout

(16:39):
the rest of the history of the band, because we've
got Smile that comes after this, which is even like
which makes Pet Sounds sound conservative. I mean that is
really going out and see like the another reaches of
like pop music in the late sixties. Oh absolutely, And
I think the sort of the link between Pet Sounds
and Smile is good vibrations, which it kind of proves

(17:01):
both of their points. For Brian, it was his most
daring studio experiment to date. It took something like six
months to make, cost fifty dollars. He assembled it almost
like a filmmaker making a movie. He would put all
these little snippets of of um of musical fragments together
like scenes like in a film editor stitching in it

(17:22):
a film together, um. And it was incredibly elaborate, incredibly
time consuming, but it went to the top of the charts.
Mike Love wrote the lyrics to it, and he as
he is very quick to point out in many interviews
over the years, and he feels that he gave it
the hook that the Beach Boys fans who knew their

(17:44):
earlier stuff could relate to, which was boy Girl. He
took this kind of far out idea of of people
giving off different vibrations and all this eesp stuff, and
he put it in a context that mass consumers could understand.
And you know, he's probably right. It was the Each
Boy's biggest single of the sixties. And he was like,
you know what, what the kids like, they're into excitations.

(18:06):
I'm gonna talk about excitation. Is that a real word?
I've never heard that in any of the contacts than
in Good Vibrations. Did he make that that's a made
up word? Right? Excitations? I think he references that an
interview where he says, you know it's not used very much,
but I think it's like technically a word, but it's
like a really stupid word. Maybe that that's my that's
my official take on It might be like technically correct,

(18:28):
but you just shouldn't use it. We're gonna take a
quick break and get a word from our sponsor before
we get two more rivals, so you have good vibrations.
Ends up being this enormous hit, but in a way
it's a last horrab sorts of the glory years of

(18:52):
the Beach Boys because they end up going into this
wilderness period in the late sixties that begins with Smile
and Smile is this mythical record. I think it's fair
to say that it's the most famous lost album in
rock history, even though it's been found. I guess you
know it was. It was. It was released in two

(19:12):
thousand four when Brian Wilson recorded it with Um musicians
at that time, and he and he ended up reviving
it and it's a really good version of it. But
there's still this idea of like a master work that
this mad genius was working on that never quite came off. Yeah,
even even when he did finish it, I feel like

(19:34):
he finished it, and then about ten years later, the
Capital put out a box set with all the Smile
sessions from back in the sixties with the original group
and the original musicians. But there's still something tantalizing about
it not being exactly what it was supposed to be,
you know what I mean, like it did because it
didn't come together in the sixties, because he didn't finish

(19:56):
it at the top of his game. If that is
a fair thing to say, you know what I mean, No, yeah,
and yeah, and I think I mean, there's so much
beautiful music that came out of that period. You know,
You've got songs like Wonderful in Our Prayer and cabin
Essence and Serves Up, especially the piano demo version that
you can hear on one of the box sets. There's

(20:18):
like a million Beach Boys box sets. Um, but I
feel like Smile is even more than Pet Sounds. Is
like the foundational text of like the Brian Wilson cult.
And I know from talking with you that you have
fallen into that cult. And I know I fell into
that cult. I think I'm still in the I mean,
I still love Brian Wilson, I still love the Beach boys.

(20:38):
But there was a time in my life where I
was like, I was like one of those teenaged men,
teenage into twentysomething year old men who like have Brian
Wilson posters on the wall, and like read books about
Brian Wilson and and sort of ruminate on the idea
of this romantic, loner, broken man genius who tried to

(21:01):
make a masterpiece and and couldn't quite pull it off.
And there's so much about Brian Wilson I think that
is based on unrealized potential. Obviously, he made so many
great records in his lifetime. But what is I think
ultimately so tantalizing to those of us in the Brian
Wilson cult is the idea that he was creating this

(21:23):
sort of god level music that he came so close
to finishing but couldn't complete. It is that fair to
say that a fair summation of of of like the
appeal of of of being obsessed with this guy. I mean,
that's part of it. For me, it was And maybe
this probably says more about me than it does about
Brian Wilson's fans, But as just a a a shy, sensitive,

(21:46):
kind of dumpy kid, in high school who had, you know,
a lot of feelings and really know what to what
to put them in. There was something romantic about this
guy who, um, who took all of these teenage emotion
and and went off and made something beautiful with them.
And he wasn't afraid to be vulnerable or sensitive. And

(22:07):
I think that that was sort of where I approached him,
and what I really admired about him, I was that
there was a certain bravery to it too. I mean
you he kind of he hijacked this multimillion dollar feel
good industry and used it to express himself in a
really really beautiful, really really intimate way. It's almost like

(22:29):
reverse punk rock in a way. You had all these people,
including his own family, saying no, no, no, make rock
and roll, like like just just just be out there,
like just you know, just play stuff for the kids.
And he wanted to make something that was a little
more I say, sophisticated. I don't mean that to come
off as pretentious, but something that something that certainly sensitive,

(22:50):
more sensitive and beautiful. Yeah. And and and the sort
of the pressure was working against him were immense. I
mean there have been books written about why Smile didn't
have and documentaries, and I've read every single one of them.
I mean, his own struggles with drugs and mental illness,
which has been well documented over the years. UH troubles
with the label, troubles within the group, especially with Mike Love,

(23:14):
who you know, if he's not in the pet sounds,
he's definitely not feeling UM. You know, A a sort
of kaleidoscopic vision through American history with Van Dyke Parks
is UH lyrics, which is really where the Smile showdown.
The big Smile showdown occurred was when the band were
recording the vocal sessions for cabin Essence track cabin Essence, Um,

(23:37):
Mike Love is handled a lyric sheet, and again if
he doesn't like hang on your Ego, he really doesn't
know what to make of the line over and over
the crow fly cries uncover the cornfield, over and over,
the thresher hovers the wheat field, and he's just like,
what the crystal clear man, crystal clear you can anyone

(23:58):
can figure that out come, But Brian, Mike's not. That
doesn't really get it. So, Brian, what the hell is this?
Get get the guy who wrote this in here? So
Brian calls Van Dyke parks into the studio. Van Dyke
realizes very quickly that he's sort of wandered into a
family feud that's been simmering for years. And Mike just
what's what's the expression holds his feet to the flame

(24:20):
and says, just makes him explain himself, what did these
lyrics mean? And Van Dyke says, you know what, I
don't know. I don't know what these lyrics mean their poetry.
If you don't like them, throw him away and uh.
And that is kind of the main the example that's
decited again and again and sort of the disintegration of
Smiles is the band rebelling against um the direction Brian

(24:43):
wanted to go on in a very very concrete way
he did. Can I just say quick that, like I
love that Van, but Dyke Park still hates Mike Glove
more than fifty years later, Like Mike Glove's birthday wasn't
that long ago? And on Mike Glove's birthday, Van Dyke
Parks tweeted out a photo and he said, happy birthday, Mike,

(25:05):
and it was a photo of Mike Love with Donald
Trump and it was just like, you are still pissed
about Cabin essence. Man, I love it. I love Van
Dyke Parks. Never let it go. Man. People tell you
that you should let go of your grudges after fifty years,
I say, hold on tight. Van Dyke Parks, keep your

(25:27):
hatred of Mike Love alive because it gives the rest
of us life to see you carrying that grudge. Do
you want to know mind blowing factoid? Uh? You know
who plays accordion on Kokomo the the Mike Love lad
Ladder era Beach Boys hit No Idea, Van Dyke Parks.
Van Dyke Parks plays accordion on Kokomo, oh man, which

(25:48):
kind of like throws my whole Like yeah, like Van
Dyke's still being pissed at Mike thing and do uh,
but I've been in Van Dyck's mind. He was thinking,
like this is a subversive move for me to be
doing this. I'm gonna I'm adding us verse of wrinkle
to this like beer commercial of a song and like
thirty years, they're going to talk about this on a
podcast and it's going to blow their minds and that

(26:09):
will make up with it. So Van Dyke, I salute
you for that. You know, it's it's interesting because you
know we talked about Smile, We talked about the album
that we imagine it to be in the album that
it ended up not being. And the reality is that
for the Beach Boys, as I said earlier, did send

(26:30):
them in into this wilderness period where I think for
like the hardcore Beach Boys fans like the records that
they put out in the late sixties and early seventies
are like some of the most fun and interesting records
that they put out, like Sunflower and Surfs Up and
Holland and all those records. Friends but commercially Friends is great,

(26:52):
which has the song that Charles Manson roade and then
it's Wilson changed the lyrics and then that's probably why
we had all the murders and all that stuff. Um
but um, really, the Beach Boys are like a commercial
nonentity for several years until the mid seventies, where there's

(27:12):
this nostalgia now for the early sixties and you have,
you know, films like American Graffiti that are stoking this
which features several Beach Boys songs, and then the Beach
Boys themselves they put out the greatest hits album in
the nineteen seventy four called Endless Summer which ends up
being a big hit. And it's around this time when

(27:34):
the Beach Boys, certainly by the end of the seventies
going into the eighties, they stopped being a band that
is like a vital creative force, and they become essentially
a show band playing oldies. The gulf between their their
commercial success and they're touring success just became so wide
that they just decided to go out and play the hits.

(27:55):
And that's where Mike Love excels. And that was partially
just what the industry dictated at the time, but also
Brian was really sidelined by his, you know, extensive mental illness.
This was the period when when he was in bed
for a number of years and then he had his
his in a sandbox too. He's in a bed in

(28:16):
a sandbox. Like I feel like the sandbox aspect is
like it'd be sad enough if he was just in bed,
but like his bed was in a literal sandbox. That
was piano was in the sandbox. He wanted to feel
the beach when he wrote, but wasn't the bed, But
wasn't his piano in the bedroom Like with the sandbox
where it was like there was was there a separate

(28:36):
sandbox room with I think this is this is how
deep my nursery goes. It was in Laurel Way, his
house pre smile Um, and he had the sandbox built
in the living room for the baby grand piano to
go in and so he could feel the beach when
he wrote. But then his dogs starting using as a
place to go to the bathroom and and they got
rid of it. So that's that's the story of the

(28:57):
Brian Wilson sandbox, which really you gotta say, like the
dog was more logical than Brian Wilson in that instance.
I feel like if you put a sandbox into your house,
it's logical for a dog to take a shift in it.
It's not logical for a genius songwriter to write songs
in the sandbox. So you know, I'm saying, you know,

(29:17):
point one to the dog. In that instance, I have
to say those dogs can be heard. Didn't really write
any great songs in that time, I guess, other than
there's that story about like, isn't there a story about
like Mike Love showing up at his house and like
berating him until he wrote Sale on Sailor. Yeah, Like
I heard this story like that he was like basically
like bullied into writing this incredible song on ended up

(29:43):
being on the Holland album and is one of like
like one of the only truly great songs of like
that period that he wrote. But yeah, he was like
bullied into doing it basically. Oh. I mean, that scene
was played out again and again and again. I Mean.
The thing that a lot of people know about Brian
is that in the early the seventies everyone kind of
thinks he was already in bed. He was doing a

(30:03):
lot of stuff, but none of it was for the
Beach Boys. Like he was working on like he like
poetry albums with people, and he was working with Danny
Hutton Um who's in Three Dog Night, and uh, working
on all these sort of weird side projects. Brian's wife
Um was in a group called American Spring. Have you

(30:23):
ever heard them? No, I've had. It's Wild Irish Spring,
but not American Spring. For you soap fans out there,
um No, you gotta check it out. It's so weird.
It's like I think it's from one. It's Brian's wife
and her sister are doing this like double act. It's
it's so weird. Go check it out. It sounds like

(30:45):
something like, I don't I don't even know. I it
just has to be. Is this like the proto Wilson
Phillips you know what? I never thought of that. I
Sonically no, but familial maybe, yeah, I mean it's it's
like the model. But but the band would just like
they would say to him, look, you've got to do

(31:06):
this for us. You are under contract to do this
for us. If you don't, your wife will leave you,
she will take the kids. The record company will sue you,
and you will be out on the street with no one,
no home. I mean they would say these things to him,
and which is and he was in a really fragile
mental state anyway, and it was really really I mean,
they bully him, which is a lot of ways the

(31:28):
way same way as dad got him to make music
when he was young too. It was really through bullying
was the way to get get him to to produce stuff.
But it's really sad. Yeah. And and at that time,
I mean you had this dynamic basically where you know,
Brian Wilson coming back to the Beach Boys. It's almost
like you know, like a like a like a sports
team like waiting for like their injured quarterback to come back,

(31:50):
you know, like when Washington had Robert Griffin and there
was like all those years like where Robert Griffin is
gonna come back and he's going to be as good
as he used to be, He's gonna get his leg
back together, and you know, we're gonna go back to
the playoffs, and he never really could do it. And
you know, there was that campaign in the ninety six
I think it was where it was like the Brian
is Back thing, and I think there was even like

(32:11):
a Brian his Back song where you know, he's he's
gonna be back in the band. Even though like it's
kind of sad because like Carl Wilson and Dennis Wilson
were writing like some really great music at that time,
trying to step out of their brother's shadow, but like
Brian's shadow was so large that they couldn't ever quite

(32:31):
do it, you know, even though Dennis made a record
in seventies seven called Uh Pacific Ocean Blue, which is
I think a wonderful record and it's beloved by cultists everywhere.
People who are in the Brian Wilson cult, I think
tend to also be in the Dennis Wilson cult, I
assume you are as well. Oh, yeah, the the the
true Beach Boy. Yeah. Did you know that Dennis is

(32:54):
the uncredited co writer on You Are So Beautiful to Me,
the Joe Cocker Billy Preston track. Know that he like
would sing it on stage because there's when his voice
was shot at the end of his life. They would show,
you know, there's like documentary clips of him singing, you know,
like where he sounds like Tom Waite's basically at the
end of his life for me, And I'm curious if

(33:16):
you had a similar situation. I think, like what was
so appealing about a lot of this stuff coming at it?
You know, And this is getting back to the cult
of Brian Wilson. Was the Beach Boys that I first
encountered was in the late nineteen eighties when they had Kokomo,
when that was a huge hit number one song, and

(33:38):
also when the Beach Boys were like regular guest stars
on Full House, you know, like they were known as
like the Full House Band essentially in the late nineteen eighties,
And um, I knew the Beach Boys as Mike Loves
Band essentially. I mean, Brian Wilson would be in the
background at those times. Like there's like if you those

(34:00):
old Full House episodes, like there's episodes that Brian Wilson
is on and I think he he even has some dialogue,
like very awkward dialogue in those episodes. But the Beach
Boys were like the squarest, dorky ist, uh you know,
at least cool band in the world. They were the
Regans band. They were like the Reagan's favorite. They were

(34:21):
the Reagan band, and that was what Mike Loves signified.
And then to actually go back and like learn about
this history and learn like, oh wait a minute, like
in late in the mid to late sixties, they were
actually this innovative, uh, far out band, and it was
because of this guy, Brian Wilson that was driving them,

(34:41):
you know that it was like discovering a whole new world.
It'd be like discovering that um that you know, like
that round Reagan was actually you know, uh, Jerry Garcia
or something like that. He was Jerry Garcia in the sixties,
you know, like like which which would have blown my
mine to have discovered that. It's like, oh wait a second,

(35:02):
like why is he a Republican now? But like back
then he was like this cool hippie guy um and
I think for me that created immediately this fascinating tension
in the Beach Boys between really the two competing ideas
of what this band was and like what the real

(35:22):
Beach Boys were. And it was like, are the real
Beach Boys this sort of like oldies nostalgia conservative uh
down the middle of the road act that you see
on Full House, or are they this like counterculture, cutting edge,
progressive pop act from the sixties that never fully realized

(35:46):
their potential because of the conservative guy um. And now
I almost feel like it's reverted the other way too,
You think so, well, no, I almost feel like we
and again, this is somebody who's just a total die
hard Brian Wilson pet sounds smile era fan, But it
almost feels like that era has been so overrepresented in

(36:06):
recent years that we almost neglect the the the people
who who do love them for their early hits and stuff,
you know what I mean. Almost became subversive in the
late eighties and early nineties, to say, when Kocomo was
out there, to say, oh, yeah, to be a self
described like cool person and be like, yeah, I love
the Beach Boys. Did you know they had this whole
weird era where they were like, you know, getting crawl

(36:29):
on their knees, making barnyard sounds and Brian Wilson's swimming pool,
you know, all that kind of crazy stuff. And I
feel like that sort of the rejection of all of
Brian's most heartfelt and innovative music in the sixties. We've
overcompensated for it so much now that I almost feel
like we've neglected the hits in a weird way, which

(36:50):
in the hits signify to me, Mike Love, what do
you what do you think about that? Well? I mean,
I think it depends on who you talk to. You.
I think like if you're especially if probably like a
people that we know in our friends, it is overrepresented,
you know. But I feel like in the in the
general culture, most people don't know deep Cuts from or

(37:11):
from Sunflower, you know, like that stuff is still pretty obscure,
and it is more about the surf hits of the
early sixties, which, by the way, I love those songs too,
like I love the entire Beach Boys history. Um, but
I don't think there's any question that like their image
as fixed in the minds of like most people, is

(37:33):
the image that's been perpetuated by Mike Love going on,
you know, almost sixty years at this point. It is
interesting to me, though, that this conflict that we're talking
about about, you know, who is the real Beach Boys? Um,
it continues up until this day. I mean, you know
there was that fifty reunion tour that they did. Um,

(37:55):
I guess when was that? In two thousand twelves where
we're where Brian Wilson came out back into the band
and they did a bunch of shows and they were
very well received, and then it ended acrimoniously essentially because
Michaelub ended up booking a bunch of dates with the
usual band. You know, but even though there was all

(38:17):
this demand for like the classic lineup, he am I
getting this wrong? I mean, because I feel like Michaelub
basically said, Okay, well, this was like a temporary thing
where Brian Wilson's back in the band. Uh. Now I'm
gonna get back to playing County Fairs with Bruce Johnston
and we're gonna play We're gonna play this the same
fifteen songs every night. I mean, all throughout the nineties,

(38:39):
Brian and Mike had were engaged. I feel like they
lived in court. They were suing each other for one
thing or another. Mike sued him for song royalties that
he felt he was already felt he wasn't credited for
for writing lyrics on a bunch of songs. UM. He
sued Brian for his autobiography that he wrote UM, and
then he also sued the entire band when Carl Wilson

(39:00):
died to um to own the rights to the Beach
Boy's name. I think that's important to say is that
Mike Love, after the death of Carl Wilson, retained the
right to have the Beach Boy's name out there, which
is a lot of Brian Wilson fans thought was weird
because wait, Brian Wilson can't tour under the Beach Boy's
name without Mike Love's permission. That's kind of strange considering he's,

(39:22):
you know, Brian Wilson. So for from the late nineties
until two twelve, like you said, yeah, there were two.
There were. Brian toward usually with Al Jardine, and Mike
Love toured with Bruce Johnston, and then they got back
together for the fiftieth anniversary. They made an album That's
Why God Made radio. What do you think of that album?
You know, I have not heard it since it came out.

(39:44):
I remember I reviewed it, and I think I reviewed
it favorably, but I have no desire to ever do
that never again. I don't know is it is it good? Though?
I I guess I remember it being okay, remember yeah,
I remember being better than I thought it would be.
But I haven't listened to it since then either. I mean,
my memory of that tour is that they were able
to strike a balance between playing the hits and some

(40:08):
more obscure songs like it seemed like it was a
happy medium, yeah, of commercial and artistic Beach Boys music.
And they also and all the guys in the band
seem happy too, which is why a lot of them
were really shocked. Brian and al In particularly were really
surprised when they learned that Mike was going on the
road without them, and he might claim that it was
a miscommunication. He said he was told from Brian's management

(40:30):
that Brian no more tours for him. Some Mike moved
on and just moved on with his life and started booking,
like he said, county fairs and stuff with his usual band,
and then Brian's camp said never mind, wait, we we
want to go, and Mike said, too late. It's a
lot of he said, he said, I guess in this case, basically,
Brian looked like he'd been dumped and he I think,
he said in an interview, it feels like I got fired,

(40:52):
which is a horrible thing for I mean, I'm hard
pressed to think of a more beloved musical figure than
than Brian Wilson, right, like just well right, I mean again,
like he is good incarnate. You know, he's this angelic
figure who has had a really hard life. He's written
some of the most beautiful songs ever. It just seems

(41:14):
like a sweet guy, really hard to dislike. And then
you have Mike Love, who, um, it just seems perpetually
agitated and grumpy. He looks very stern all the time. Uh,
he's very fond of like wearing tucked in shirts and
very tight pants well into his seventies. Uh. And uh

(41:35):
he's also a Trump supporter, which is just like the
cherry on the ship Sunday with him, I feel like,
you know, you have to also be a Trump supporter,
Mike Love. Really, can't you just be a political I
just I'm asking you to be a liberal, but you
could be a political I mean, come on, you have
to like wear the Maga hat and and do all
that stuff. What's hilarious to me too, is, you know,

(41:58):
the most recent conflict which these guys h was concerning
Mike Love booking a Beach Boys show. What was it?
It was that a It was a Safari Club International
convention in Reno. It's basically like game hunting, right, like
where they're hunting like like you know, I don't it's
not endangered animals, but it's like you know, yeah, I

(42:21):
mean it's it's like he couldn't. It's like it's like
like a puppy kicking convention. Like I mean, it's that
level of like yeah, like you don't you really maybe
don't don't need to do that. Like a gig is
a gig, I know, But how does it even work?
Are they on stage playing fun, fun fun while people
are like executing animals in the audience, Like or do
they kill the animals after the show or is it

(42:43):
like that's the victory at like you know, like they
killed them first and then they go to see the
Beach Boys. I don't, I don't really know how that
how that would work. But either way, it's not really
the association that you want as a Beach Boys fan.
You know, to think of animals being killed and in
Beach Boys music playing all right, and we'll be right
back with more rivals. So this is the conflict between

(43:18):
these guys, and you know, this is the part of
the episode like where you have to think of like
a pro case for for both people in the rivalry.
I feel like with Brian Wilson, it's pretty easy to
make the case for him, and I think we've already
made it that he was the creative genius of the band,
that he was the one that he just seems more

(43:39):
likable and sweet, and I don't think there's any question
that he's the soul of the Beach Boys, that he's
the one that is what He's the person that sets
them apart from all the other surf groups, certainly of
the sixties and and and of most American pop groups
of that era. Like there's a lot of great bands
from that time, but like they don't have Brian Wilson,

(44:00):
like he is the genius of the group. Uh So
I don't I feel like you don't have to work
very hard to make a pro case for Brian Wilson. Um,
I'm kind of more intrigued by trying to make a
pro case for Mike Love because this is literally playing
Devil's advocate, like we are literally defending the devil. I

(44:22):
don't actually think it's that hard to make a Mike
Love case, which is I know, I mean, I'm I'm
literally looking at on my wall. I have a autographed
Pet Sounds tour set list that my cousin who did
lights for him in like two thousand one, got for me,
and I have it framed over my desk. It's on
my prize possessions in the same place that some families
would have like a portrait of Jesus. I have a

(44:42):
Brian Wilson autographed. So that's the level that we're dealing
with here. But I will say I think Mike Love
was a crucial ingredient to the band. I think that, Um, really,
you think of the Beach Boys, you think of this
the California myth, and I know it's been done to
death in everything piece ever written about the Each Boys
for the past, you know, since David Leaf was writing

(45:03):
about them in the late seventies, it's been done to death,
but it really is a crucial part of Americana, and
that springs from Mike loves lyrics, and he was the
main lyricist from the Beach Boys, uh in these sort
of pre pet sounds there. I know, Brian worked with
other people like Gary Usher and um, what's his name,
Robert Christian I think his name was, But primarily it's

(45:25):
a lot of it is Mike's vision, it's it's Dennis
Wilson's life. He was the only surfer in the group.
It's Brian's music, and it's Mike's poetry, and that all
combined I think makes the Beach Boys at their most
commercially successful era, which is what we all think of
them as really, I mean, you know, honesty. So I

(45:46):
think that was a really important contribution that he made
that I think doesn't get enough play. Kind of like
what I was saying earlier about how there's sort of
an overcompensation for praising Brian's more experimental stuff. I think
that you know that that that contribution to a mayor culture.
You can't underestimate Brian Wilson's contribution to popular music. You
know that that's a given. But I think Mike's contribution

(46:07):
to it too is also important. And also I think
he was the front man that the Beach Boys needed.
Brian Wilson has many things, he's not a front man.
I mean, what do you what do you think? I
think that the Beach Boys wouldn't exist without Mike. Yeah,
when you were talking about Michael Love's lyrics, I was
just thinking about one of my favorite Mike Love lines,
and I think there's there's a lot of wisdom in
this line. And when he wrote here a mug, there

(46:30):
a mug, everybody chuggled up. Uh. Powerful statement from Mike Glove. No,
I mean, look, being a little snarky here, No, I
think you're right. I mean I have a theory about
My Glove that he actually invented the pop punk voice
that if you listen to a lot of pop punk
singers now that they sound nasally and they had, they

(46:53):
sort of had this affectation of sounding boyish even though
they're like in their forties and maybe even in their
fifties at this point. I think that descends from My Glove,
and it goes from My Glove. I think Joey Ramone
was influenced by My Glove and was taking his vocal
style and exaggerating it and taking it in a different direction.

(47:13):
And then from there, like Joey Ramon was almost like
the John the Baptist of that vocal style, like he
went out into the world and convinced many other people
to sing that way. And but that comes from My
Glove and it's it's a quintessentially American type of singing.
The other thing about My Glove, you know, I've taken
a lot of shots at My Glove. I do think

(47:34):
he's the devil I will. I think he is an
evil man, but I do kind of like him. I
kind of like his evilness because, um, I've interviewed My Glove.
I interviewed My Glove a long time ago. It is
probably about fifteen years ago, and I interviewed him and
I was and I was a Brian Wilson Loyal was
going into this interview and I was like, I'm going

(47:54):
to give it to him. I was going to talk
to him about like how he's just totally prostituted the
beach Boy's name and that he plays the same set
list every night and he's not digging into like the
obscure songs that all all of his hardcore fans Love
and I had all these questions ready to go, and
I get into the interview and I realized that, like,

(48:15):
first of all, Mike Love is like the most zen
sounding guy in the world. Like he barely talks about
a whisper and I don't even think he's like opening
his mouth very much. He's sort of like Eventula quest
for himself because he's just like, hey, man, like we
don't play the the songs from Sunflower because the crowds

(48:40):
aren't going to get into it, and I'm just trying
to please the people. And he's speaking like this, and
like I just found my dislike of him melt away. Uh,
at least in that moment. I think I got it
back when we got off the phone. But like when
we were on the phone, I was like, Oh, this guy,
he's like he has like you know, because like Satan

(49:02):
himself is a very charming man, and and and and
and Mike Love in in in phone conversation is a
charming guy. Oh yeah, I viewed him also, and I
had the exact same experience. I thought, because I was
in the camp that my Love was Antichrist. And on
the phone he was completely just charming and I and I,

(49:22):
you know, I was a part of me that that
holds onto that, and actually I I enjoyed my time
talking to He also butt dialed me afterwards, which was
like days later, which was really uh something that I
cherished and hold on to also well. And you know
the contrast with that is the Brian Wilson interview, which
I feel like, if you're a music journalist for any

(49:43):
period of time, the rite of passage is to do
a bad Brian Wilson interview. Because Brian Wilson, God bless him,
He's not very good in interview situations. He usually lasts
about six to seven minutes before he has to like
literally I think he has an injector seat in his
house where that will thrust him away from the telephone

(50:04):
and get him away. Um, it's extremely awkward to talk
to him. And yet whoever his handlers are, they always
make him extremely accessible to do interviews. So anyone out there,
if you want to interview Brian Wilson, just send an
email to like his publicist or manager and make up
a website name. You know, it doesn't have to even

(50:25):
be a real website. And I guarantee you you'll get
an interview with Brian Wilson, because his people will book
any interview, but just be prepared that he's going to
give one word answers the entire time, and it's going
to be kind of confused and and not terribly coherent
during that talk. Um yeah, I mean because you have

(50:50):
you talked to him. I talked to him twice and
I sort of knew because interview went back like a rodeo.
I I. You know, every profile with Brian Wilson for
the last twenty years. When you read it, it's it
just always turns into a meta thing like I'm about
to interview Brian Wilson, and then I because it can't
be done in a traditional way because just the responses

(51:12):
he gives don't really lend himself to that. So the
first time I went it was in person and it
was kind of what you expected. It was difficult. The
the second time was on the phone and I he
actually stayed on longer than I had initially been told
I had time for and at the end he said,
what's your name again? I told him in Jordan, Jordan,

(51:34):
I really want to thank you. That was a really
enjoyable interview, and that I think between that and talking
to Paul McCartney or my twin, like just still, I'm
beaming right now, even just recalling it, it meant the
world to me because you feel bad because he looks
like he's not having a good time when you interview
him most of the time, and it's just and you're
just like, why why are we putting him through this?

(51:55):
I don't want to, you know, I love this guy
so much in all his music. I feel like I'm
anteonizing and this is awful. I want to end this.
But in that moment, that was really nice. So that
was really special, I think because I just I've learned
from my past mistakes. I kind of knew the stuff
that you like to talk about, so I just sort
of went there. But but you're right, he's he's a
challenging interview. He's probably the most challenging interview out there.

(52:19):
My experience was I interviewed him and John Cusack and
the basement of Club Metro in Chicago, and it was
for that movie where Brian Yeah, where John Cusack played
uh eighties Brian Wilson, which is as good as that
description sounds. By the way, Uh, it doesn't really work.

(52:41):
Paul Dano plays the sixties Wilson, and I think Paul
Dana is great. John Cusack is not entirely convincing, but
it's an interesting movie. But um I I told Brian
Wilson that I used to listen to Wonderful in high
school and uh, like and and feel sad and like

(53:02):
look out the window and cried tears. And he's like, oh,
that's great, man. And then he shook my hand and
walked away, which is probably an appropriate response really to
that story. So I was glad to have done it.
I was like, oh, Beethoven shook my hand. I feel
I feel, I feel happy, but you know, not journalistically great,
but it was. It was a good experience. Um So,

(53:25):
if we have to talk about these two guys coming together,
you know, what is it that I guess is their
common ground? You know, I mean they've because I feel
like they've had periods like where they weren't at each
other's throats, where they weren't suing each other, and then
they kind of fall back into it and then it

(53:47):
seems like they're connected through both spite and genuine affection,
you know, for their entire lives, But like, what's the
case I guess for them being together. I feel about
Mike Loves similar how I feel about Robbie Robertson a
way he talks about Levi on Helm. Whenever Mike talks
about Brian in interviews, there's this genuine affection that comes through.

(54:07):
I mean a lot of profiles of Mike. When he
talks about Brian, he starts getting teary, and he just
talks about, you know, I just I just want to
write with my cousin. I just want to make hits
with my cousin. And you know, Okay, the fact that
he says I want to make hits with my cousin,
it's a little suspicious and it's kind of a strange
way to word that. But I think that there is
a lot of genuine affection there, and it is sad
that all this this business stuff, not to mention extreme

(54:31):
amounts of familiar dysfunction, split these guys apart. But I
think that their egos. Mike Love is hanging onto his ego.
I think that there's a certain amount of ego there
that prohibits them. Is a great line in um in
Brian Wilson's uh second memoir that came out in where
he goes to he shows Mike a song that he's

(54:53):
working on and said, Hey, Michel, what do you think
of this? You want to work on this together? Mike
thinks for a minute and goes, well, you know, I
could make this song better, but I won't if we
do something. I want to start from scratching. Which what
a dick. He's such a dick. I mean, I mean

(55:15):
the Robbie Robertson comparison, um, Robbie and Levin. I think
that that makes a lot of sense to me, because
not for the reason that you're talking about, and also
that you know, Robbie Robertson is so easy to vilify
in the same way that Mike Love is easy to vilify,
and and for a lot of you know, and that's

(55:36):
due to that that's their own fault in a lot
of ways. But I think the case that you can
make for those guys is that you know, they've had
to put up also with like a lot of dysfunctions
from their partners. You know, even if like Levin and
Brian are like the heart and soul of those bands,
they're also like both sort of broken screw ups in

(55:57):
a lot of ways, like at least in their personal lives,
because brilliant, they are creative, like you know, they're they're
they're they're sort of a mess in their personal life.
And I can imagine, like being in a band with
Brian Wilson would be difficult a lot of the time,
especially if this is something you want to make your
career and you know, as easy it is, as you know,
you want to roll your eyes at like that don't

(56:19):
funk with the formula thing. But it's like, if you're
in this band that's successful, you don't want to work
with the formula. You know, you do want to like
keep making hits and and and having a career. And
he wasn't wrong about pet Sounds and later smiled derailing
the Beach Boys progress. I mean that actually did hurt

(56:39):
their their their career in the in the short term.
I mean, we look back on both of those as
being great records, Like in the short term, at least
my Mike my Glove was right. And um, I think
the idea that like, you know, Brian Wilson needed someone
like Mike Love, you know, as big of an asshole,

(57:00):
old as he is. He did communicate the genius of
Brian Wilson's music in a way that was palatable for
the average person and allowed Brian Wilson's music to reach
exponentially more people than if Brian Wilson had just been
making you know, intellectual pocket symphonies that with lyrics that

(57:22):
were you know, over the heads of the average person.
So you know, you've got the genius and you've got
the communicator, and they needed each other in order to
both be Yeah, the examples I always point to our
California Girls and Good Vibrations. I mean, two songs that
really showcase both of their strengths you've got. I mean,
the opening to California Girls is like an Aaron Copeland piece.

(57:44):
I mean just it's it's gorgeous. I always whenever I
hear it, I think of a sunrise. You see that
first guitar being plucked. It sounds like to me, it
sounds like a visual of a little ray of sun
peeking over the horizon in southern California. Something. It just
perfectly And then Mike comes in with his lyrics and
it takes you to that place that you already here

(58:06):
in your head up well, theast Cows girls are him
bangy Have you ever seen have you ever seen? I
think it was I forget there's some Beach Boys documentary
that that was, like an official one. I think it
was Endless Harmony where Brian sitting at the piano and
with al Gredinos all I'll do the thing, and a'l
pinches his nose and Brian starts singing like myke glove

(58:28):
just like yeah, yeah, even even Brian Wilson can clown
my glove. You know, it's like he'd come back to
Earth and clown my glove. So so again it's it's
good and evil. Brian Wilson's good, my glove is evil.
But you know, good wouldn't seem good without evil, and

(58:53):
evil wouldn't seem as evil without good. You need them both.
And it's the end of the end of the beach
Point and the devil can write good songs about root here.
That's right, man, Chuggle Lug, baby, chuggle ug. That's where
we leave you, folks. All right, that's another episode of Rivals. Everyone,
thank you for listening going to the dark side with
us in this episode. Uh, we look forward to talking

(59:15):
about more rivals with you. Guys next week. All right,
thanks everyone. Check out American Spring Rivals is a production
of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shaun Titone
and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor chi Con

(59:35):
and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden.
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