June 14, 2024 • 38 mins
Rachel decides it's time to have the conversation about being labeled a villain.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel Go's Rogue.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome back to another episode of Rachel Goes Rogue. This
is your host, Rachel Savannah Lovis, and today we are
channeling our inner villain and talking about embracing your villain era.
But it may not be what you think it is,
so we'll get into it. I have a very special guest,
Callie Klug. You may know her from her Instagram. I've
(00:34):
been following her for quite some time. Her instagram is
Callie Somatics. She is a certified somatic practitioner and yoga teacher.
Callie's teachings help clients access the inner wisdom of their
own bodies. She believes we all have the key within
ourselves to stop outsourcing our healing and unlock potent empowerment
(00:58):
from within. Cali, thank you, Oh my gosh, I'm so
happy to have you here. I've been a fan of yours,
following your stuff on social media, and just the way
that you embody this like presence of empowerment and the
way that you speak about embracing that villain part of
(01:22):
you is something that has changed my perspective on this
entire experience because it's not something that I'm necessarily trying
to suppress and deny, and so I want to thank
you for being so open and vulnerable with your content online.
And yeah, I'm just really happy to have you here.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So I hear you were voted friendliest in high school.
Would you say this is where your villain origin story began.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I would say it started even before that. I grew
up in like a very pervasive Christian church as well,
So I feel like growing up in that kind of context,
the line between good and bad it was so binary
and there was never like space for nuance. You're either good,
you're either bad. You're either going to heaven or going
(02:17):
to hell. There's like there's no one between. And so
for me, I grew up from a very young age
wanting to be good. I was like, I want to
go to heaven. I want to be a good girl.
I want to be perceived as good. And I think
that's definitely what won me that title in high school
of friendliest, because I was so desperate to avoid any
(02:40):
kind of interpersonal conflict and also I just wanted people
to think I was good desperately.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, So then what was the thing that shifted for you?
Did you do something that wasn't accepted by other people,
and I'm just like guessing, did you feel like this
immense amount of shame and felt like you were inherently
bad and then have to overcome that and what was
(03:09):
that thing for you? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I started getting therapy in twenty nineteen EMDR do you
know EMDR? And that was really supportive and starting to
allow my body, like to find safety, a certain level
of safety.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
And then a.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Few years ago that was I think that was like
the foundation for that. And then two years ago I
went through just like this slew of grief. And one
thing about grief is that it's so tiring and exhausting,
and with fawning and people pleasing, it's really high energy.
(03:50):
And so when I didn't have the energy anymore to
fawn and people please, I just I stopped. And all
of these relationshis and ships crumbled. I had entire friend
groups just leave me. They didn't like who I was anymore.
And I just felt like the entire structures of my
life that were built on this foundation of this contrived
(04:13):
personality that I had created to be liked were demolished
in like a summer. And it was so traumatic and
it wasn't consensual. I didn't set out for that, Like,
it just happened to me. And for me, that was
kind of how I just like I just was the
bad guy suddenly. Wow, And so I had I was
(04:34):
working with Poverty at that time. Yeah, I was doing
coaching with her. And she knows that so well. She
knows what it's like to not be liked. She knows
what it's like to be the villain in people's stories.
And she basically was like, you can either claw and
you know, fight your way to tell them that I
am good and be understood and put all your energy
(04:57):
towards that, which could be futile, or you could just
lean into it and be like and what if I'm bad?
And what? And that felt really like a release of
shame for me. And so for me, that's I think
how I started this work.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, so those who don't know Poverty
has been on the most recent Traders and she's a
legend because she like completely embraced her villain era and
just gives no fs at all. Basically, how did you
guys start working together during COVID?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I mean I think we all watched a lot of
TV during COVID, I got really into Survivor. Yeah, and
she's on four seasons of Survivor. I think, yeah four.
And I watched her in Heroes Versus Villains? Have you
seen that one?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I haven't know that one's really good.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I gues should watch that, Okay, but she is labeled
as a villain. Everyone in the tribes, both tribes actually
don't like her. They're trying to get her out. She
makes it to the end, and I was just like, I,
this girl has something that I want, this confidence, this
ability to stay true to yourself even when everyone's against you.
And I've somehow found her on Instagram and I realized
(06:18):
she was a yoga teacher and a life coach, and
I just needed what she was selling. I started working
with her, and I think that's how my brand was born,
because she basically taught me how to be a villain.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Very cool. I love that, Yeah, she did something great
because I feel like you definitely channeled that and you're
not afraid to speak about it. I feel like as females,
especially growing up, we're taught to be small, We're taught
not to speak out. I would think three times before
(06:54):
saying anything, and I didn't want to be disruptive. I
just wanted to be the good girl and almost like
not be noticed at all. And I also struggled with that.
I want to be inherently good. But if I'm not
one hundred percent good, am I bad? And just like
(07:17):
really working over time to.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Monitor because if you're bad, it's like, what does that mean?
You live a terrible life? Like I'm doomed to be miserable.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I won't be loved, I won't be worthy of love. Yeah,
all of those lies that were programmed in us from
a young age. Yeah, And I really didn't feel like
I was allowed to rebel, and so developmentally, I can
see how I have been immature and this has come
(07:54):
out in other ways in my life, hence Season ten
of vander Pump Rules. But just to back up, because
you were talking about fawning, and fawning is a trauma response.
There's fight, flight, freeze, and fawn and it's almost like
you're trying to appease another person. Can you talk a
(08:15):
little bit more about that.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, So the four trauma responses are very they're reflexive,
so we don't really choose them. It's completely chosen by
the body. So with a fight response, our body decides
that the most effective course of action is to go
towards the thing that's threatening to us and fight them.
And this usually looks like upwards energy, like yelling energy
(08:40):
in the arms, maybe you want to kick. It's a
sympathetic nervous system response, which means that it's very high
energy and explosive. So even as I'm like saying this,
like I can feel it in my body and it's
just an upward like explosive energy. It's also very high
risk most people. Once again, it's like more reflexive, but
(09:04):
most people don't choose this as their primary response because
it's higher like higher risk. You could get hurt, you
could get attacked, so most people don't have that as
a primary response.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Would you say that females are more conditioned to not
have that be your response.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, that's a great point because most women, if you
look at it just biologically, most women are smaller than
most men. So it doesn't even like our bodies are
so intelligent. We probably couldn't take a random man on
the street, you know. So our body knows that, and
that's why so many women fond so much. And we'll
(09:42):
like I can get more into that, but but yeah,
that's very true. Yeah. The other response is flight. So
in flight, your body decides the best thing to do
is to be propelled away from the threat. Usually that
looks like downwards energy energy to the legs. You're moving
away from the threat. Usually that's most people's preferred response.
(10:05):
Like perfect world, you just leave, like you just leave
the situation, you leave the person, you leave whatever's threatening
to you. And then we have freeze. So and freeze,
your body decides kind of like you said a minute ago,
you're like I almost just didn't want to exist or
like be seen in this situation. Your body decides the
best thing to do is to not exist and not feel.
(10:28):
And so if you think of like a place where
maybe you couldn't leave, like you're in a subway car
and a guy comes in and he's acting kind of
weird or like crazy, you might just go into freeze.
So it looks like the limbs everything kind of goes inwards.
There's like a collapsing that happens. Your breathing could get
(10:48):
really shallow, it could speed up. It's an activated state,
but externally you look frozen. And also there's a lot
of numbing that happens, so it's kind of a safe
of your response, Like a lot of victims of assault,
like might have an out of body experience because their
it's like a save Your body's just saving it. It's
like this is so terrible, I'm gonna propel you out
(11:11):
of here so you don't have to survive this or
experience this. Finally, there's fawn. So the fawn response is
really interesting because similar to fight, our body propels us
towards the threat, but instead of fighting the threat, we
actually appease the threat, and so this can look like
(11:33):
tension in the body. Usually fawn and freeze are blended,
so we're probably some on some level numbed out through
the sensations of our body. There's a clenching and embracing
that happens when you're interacting with this person, but there's
an appeasement, so you're prioritizing their experience over yours. And
(11:55):
this can look like fake laughing. It can look like
over emoting, it can look like leaning in, it can
look like laughing at jokes that you don't find funny.
It's almost like you're creating a chemistry that's just not there,
and it's very popular with women because and children because
biologically it just doesn't make sense for women and children.
(12:15):
What are we going to do? Fight not really viable option.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Once you realize that you have this trauma response and
these patterns, how do you then work to break it?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
It's really hard firsus of all, because it's like we're
really good at it, Like I'm really good at fawning,
and you're probably really good at fawning, and it's something
that by the time you're an adult, if you've been
doing it your whole life as a kid, you're an expert.
Like we could win the Olympics of fawning. So it's
so reflexive that it does take time. I think any
(12:54):
kind of thing that has to do with somatics and
just tuning into your experience of your body supportive because
if I'm like sitting here talking to you and I
like feel nauseous and I'm just like my stomach hurts
and I'm feeling clenching, that's information that my body's trying
to tell me, Like maybe it has to do with
(13:16):
the person, maybe it has to do with something else.
But I think just starting to tune into how is
my body experiencing this person this conversation. That's a really
good place to start.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And then like learning to prioritize your own needs, like
your need for that emotional wellness, because in the fawn response,
you are prioritizing the other person's needs and you're trying
to maybe even make the environment more enjoyable for that person,
(13:52):
to maybe regulate their emotions or you know, not say
the wrong thing. So it's like this piece of self
worth that is the underlying thing. I mean, for me anyway,
It's like that was the thing that I really realized
I am worthy of having my needs met and feeling
(14:13):
all of my emotions and like taking back ownership of
what's mine and not trying to like read other people's
minds and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It's probably so hard to because you're in the public
eye and it's hard enough to manage like five people,
let alone the view of countless people of how they're
perceiving you.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It was so bad, my fawning response that were so good. Yeah,
I had the worst social anxiety, like the worst, always
hyper vigilant of what other people thought of me, and
I was a mind reader and all this stuff and
going onto a sh show like vander Pump Rules. It's
(15:02):
like exposure therapy where I knew I would be able
to overcome it with constant exposure, testing my boundaries of
my limits and pushing myself and it definitely. I mean,
oh gosh, I'm just so happy I'm at the place
that I'm at now.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Do you feel like it helped?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It did? And I feel like maybe even this whole
experience helped me get to where I am now. Forces you,
It forced me and I have a voice now and
I feel the most myself I've ever felt, and that's
so empowering. So yeah, it's been this whole journey, but
(15:45):
I don't have social anxiety anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Okay, So how can we relate embracing your villain era
into overcoming the fawning response and the people pleasing.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, so for those of us who are recovering people pleasers,
we are so used to probably being overly accommodating, like
for us in our nervous system, being overly accommodating, overly
offering so much, saying so much. For us, when we
(16:24):
start to do less and say less and offer less,
it can feel like really villainous, like we're being bad people.
We're like, oh am I a bad person. I didn't
offer them the most, Like I'm I'm not hurting yet
in this relationship. That's weird because I haven't given so
much of myself and so for us, what feels normal
(16:47):
for so long that overgiving. When we start to do
that less, it can feel villainous. And so that's where
I've kind of play is like can you lean into that?
Can you make it a game? Because you're like ninety
percent of the time you're just saying no, I can't
go out, or no I'm too tired, and someone might
(17:09):
be upset with you or whatever, And I think a
way to play and make light of it and deshame
it is just okay, Well I'm in my villain era.
I'm allowing myself to be misunderstood.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, that's the huge part. It's like allowing yourself to
be misunderstood. Yeah, because if you have this response to
over explain yourself, that's draining. I feel like people who
(17:44):
are listening right now may be like, head's like a
red flag is going up, like a villain era. Really, really, Rachel,
You're gonna advocate for people to enter their villain era. Wow,
so I'm brand for you. What would you say to
the critics that are like, what are you saying? You're
just gonna be diabolical from here on out and you're
(18:05):
gonna like have no respect and no regard for other people?
Is there a limit that you put on yourself and
how do you do that?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
When it comes to healing from people pleasing and the
fawn response, there's this overswing that happens. I talk about
it a lot because people don't know it and they
start to heal from fawning and they're that they go,
why am I literally pissed to everyone? And what happens
when you people please and you fawn for so long
is that you either consent or don't consent. But either way,
(18:39):
there's so many boundary violations, little things, big things, and
font in fawning, you are suppressing. So, like I said,
it's coupled with that freeze response. So there's a suppression
of anger, and anger is a biological response that is
made to create boundaries and animals that's like what somatics is.
(19:02):
It's like going back, we have Amlian nervous systems. How
does this play out in nature and in nature, it
looks like animals taking space or attacking or you know,
doing this these big expressions of creating space, creating boundaries,
like cats like will swat at people and the cat's
not shamed for that. It's just doing what it knows
(19:24):
and what it's nervous system is wired for. And when
we have so many boundary violations from a lifetime of
people pleasing. I was twenty five when I started this,
twenty five years of swallowed nose, and I don't like this,
and all these things that I had suppressed. Anger turns,
you know, irritation, annoyance, anger, it's just becomes a well
(19:47):
of rage, like a reservoir of rage. And when you
start to heal from fawning, that comes out. It's like
and we're so not equipped for that on so many levels,
just like societally, we don't learn how to manage our
anger or meet our anger. And then on top of that,
if you are a big faunner, you probably haven't experienced
(20:10):
that before, and so it comes out in a way
that's really big and usually dissociative, so that can look
like I've done this, and everyone I've worked with has
experienced this, having big reactions to boundary violations that are
very disembodied and dissociative. You might not remember the conversation,
you might yell, you might, it's like very explosive. So
(20:35):
it's like a really explosive fight response. And the reason
I bring that up is because this overswing, there's two
things with it. Number One, it's natural. It's biologically documented,
like happens in animals. They have so many studies on
it where they've observed this freeze fawn response. Just going explosive'natural.
(21:00):
It's biological, and it's also shamed, and it's also can
be destructive. And so I think when it comes to
calibrating your villain era, it's really how can I feel
the anger and be like, Okay, I'm feeling pissed, I'm
(21:21):
feeling annoyed, I'm feeling irritated. How can I advocate for
myself and my body while staying embodied, Because if you're
staying embodied, it's not going to be like crazy, a
crazy reaction. I just won't because if you're staying embodied,
you're not going to go into rage because rage is
just too much for us to stay present with. Does
(21:42):
that make sense? It's like finding that sweet spot.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah. Yeah, it's like you're flexing a new muscle, and
so you're gonna go a little overboard, probably for the
first few times, as you're learning to set boundaries for
yourself and learning to feel your anger and what it's
telling you a boundary that has been violated, and it
just takes practice. And safe people hope a lot because
(22:12):
they will understand that this is a new thing for you,
or be open to that concept and not hold it
over your head and shame you. So it's super important
to surround yourself with healthy, safe people. And then I
was wondering because for me, it wasn't so much the
rage that well, I definitely was suppressing my rage. Don't
(22:34):
get me wrong, my anger was definitely suppressed for years,
like most of my life, but it was like that
selfishness that I never gave myself before. I was always
preoccupied with other people's needs and wanting to create a
(22:54):
better reality for them at my own expense. And so
when something switched in me where I had my breaking
point and I wasn't about it anymore, and I just
wanted to start living for myself because what the hell,
you know, And I took it too far. Season ten
(23:19):
has documented that, and new viewers of the show have
tuned in just for that season and that's all they see.
There's clearly like a backstory to this girl who's having
a whole psychotic break on camera. But I just became
so selfish and like narcissistic, honestly, And I feel like
(23:42):
it was that overswing that maybe needed to happen for
me to find a middle ground now, because now I
know exactly how it feels to completely disregard everyone else's
experience but my own, and I don't want to be
in that place again. So it's like this balance between
(24:10):
being quote unquote a good person because I ultimately want
to be a good person, and then I don't want
to go too far back into the fawning response where
I am defending myself and I am spending my energy
doing that and working towards, i don't know, managing my reputation.
(24:32):
So I didn't want to swing too far back that way.
And it's still I'm still navigating this middle ground.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, it's it takes a minute, I think, to find equilibrium.
And I think that, like I said, with myself, with
most people in my life, and with everyone that I've
worked with, there is an overswing that can look different
for everyone. It's usually not documented on national TV and
(25:02):
picked apart and criticized, so I can't imagine what that
is like, but it looks different for everyone, and finding
that sweet spot is harder than people think.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Can you talk about shame a little bit? Because I
feel like part of embracing your villain era is accepting
the fact that you may be a villain in someone
else's story, and once you realize that, you probably feel
a healthy amount of shame about it. But then there's
(25:36):
also this external shame that could be toxic how and obviously,
like embracing your villain era releases some of that shame.
But for you, can you describe the difference between guilt
and shame?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, So shame is so heavy in the body. I
think it's has an important role in very small doses
to kind of shape you into society. You know, so
we're not all just like actual animals, Like that's not ideal.
(26:13):
So I think in that way, in small, temporary doses,
it's good. But I don't think that's how most people
experience shame. I think most of us feel as something
that's really pervasive and heavy. It does two things. It
will bring you into a freeze response, because shame is
(26:36):
an intense feeling, and anything that's too overwhelming for the
body will probably bring you into a freeze. And so
there's a shutdown that happens. It's not really good for
you or anyone else if you're in a freeze state.
And then also it's like a dampener. So there's no
expression that happens in shame. And that's why the the
(27:00):
villain era de shaming. It's like, like what you're saying,
with everything that happened, you obviously feel bad, Like you
don't have to prove that to people. I feel like
at a certain point, if I do something bad to someone,
I'm not psychopathic, I'm gonna feel bad about that. Like
the guilt, I'll feel guilty. Hopefully that leads to corrective
(27:22):
behavior if necessary. But the shame is just doesn't even
serve a purpose. And so that's where the inner villain
work comes. It's like people hate me, Can I can
I love that? Can I like it that people are
they can't get your name out of their mouth? Like
is there a little part of you that's kind of like, oh, okay,
(27:45):
or like can you play with that? And I think
that's where the release of shame happens. And then also
just like parts work, I'm really big on parts work.
Can you accept those dark, nasty parts of you? Everybody
has them and if you ostracize them, they're gonna just
come back stronger, like that anger I just talked about.
So can you bring them in and love them? Be
(28:06):
like it's cool, We're chill. Let's you know.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Extending that compassion to those parts of you. It allows
for you to be a whole, integrated adult who's functional
and healthy, and that's ultimately the goal.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Yeah, I would love that. Yeah, that's the dream.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Okay, what is divine rage?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I came from the yoga world, which is very spiritual
and very we rise above our anger, and anger is
not good and how can you release negative emotions like anger?
And that verbiage just pisses me off because that's just
not how it works. We live in bodies that are
animal bodies, so you're going to be angry, and that
anger serves a purpose. And I think a lot of
(29:03):
people don't understand that. And that's why I call it
divine rage because or divine anger divine rage, because it's
something that's so beautiful and a piece of the puzzle
that a lot of us just don't understand.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Wow. Yeah, I love the way that you're able to
talk about it because it changes your perspective. So when
you're feeling these emotions, you don't feel like you need
to suppress it. It's like, oh, this is my divine
anger coming up. This is the part of me that's
telling me that a boundary has been violated. And now
(29:40):
I know it's telling me like I need to advocate
for myself and make a change, and that is so
divine within you. So just shifting your perspective on these
complex constructs that I feel like have been shamed by
society is so important to becoming a healthier person.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah. I love anger. Yeah, I talk about it so much.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I love anger now too. And there was I had
an assignment at the Meadows where obviously my therapist could
recognize that I was suppressing my anger, and I had
to realize that as human beings, we're supposed to feel
(30:30):
all of our emotions, and all of our emotions are
I don't know, it's healthy to feel all of them,
and anger is not a bad emotion. It's a difficult emotion.
And then I was allowing myself to break out of
the denial that I was in in that relationship. I
(30:52):
talked about it on this podcast before, but like a
pivotal moment for me was journaling, doing a fantasy buster's
list and really writing down all of the hard proof
evidence that this person I was involved with was not
healthy for me, and just the specifics with that, and
(31:13):
all of a sudden, I just was overcome with anger.
I had to go for a run and I was
not stopping. I was running around the campus. I was screaming.
I went to the Smoke Pit sorority and I was
like Rachel, my friend Rachel that was there. It was like, Rachel,
(31:36):
I'm so effing done with Tom. And she was like, wait,
what did you just say? And I was like, I'm
so done with Tom. And she's like, wait, I need
you to say that a little louder. I didn't hear you.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And I was like, I'm done with.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Tom and she's like again, I'm done with Tom. I'm
so effing done with Tom. And we were all screwed
dreaming it at the top of our lungs. We missed
our first lecture at eight fifteen am that morning, but
it was like so therapeutic to do that with other
women and just like feeling that anger and allowing myself
(32:14):
to share that with other people. It was a huge
pivotal moment for me because then I really was like, okay,
like these boundaries have been violated. I can now see
how I was betraying myself and allowing this to happen.
And I'm no longer doing that.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Being seen in your anger and letting that and having
that be a safe experience with your girlfriends, that's special
and anger you. So I'm getting trained right now in
somatic experiencing, and when someone starts to feel angry, it's
actually we celebrate it. It's really exciting because it means
(32:54):
you're coming out of the freeze response, you're coming out
of a chronic fawn. And it's literally an essential step
in finding nervous system regulation. Again, you can't sidestep it.
So yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It's crazy to think about too now that you say
it's an essential part of nervous system regulation because I
look at some people who have like anger issues and
have issues containing their anger and just like going off
and I look at those people as not emotionally regulated people.
(33:32):
But on the flip side of that, someone who doesn't
express their anger at all is also considered not emotionally
regulated as well. Yeah, you just don't quite think of
it that way. But the villain era stuff, I think,
I think a lot of people are familiar with, like, oh,
she's embracing her villain era, but you know, there are
(33:53):
still some people that only want to root for the
hero essentially, but personally, Like watching movies, it always fascinates
me getting to know the villain character and their backstory
and the reason why they have become so evil. You know,
(34:16):
there's always a reason. Like, for instance, the Joker, we
see that whole journey in this like mental illness that
has shaped him and being shunned by society and that isolation.
(34:37):
Also like Maleficent Sleeping Beauty that you know which that
comes in and casts a spell on Sleeping Beauty when
she was born, and of course we all hate her
in the beginning because we're really, why the heck would
she do that to a poor little baby, an innocent
little child. But then you know that backstory, we learned
(34:59):
like there was resentment there towards the King and Queen,
and you know, she just wanted a place belonging to.
So I think it's like all of these human we're
all human.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Almost like those stories have nuance, yes, because people are nuanced.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
People are nuanced exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
It's like really not that crazy of a concept. Yeah,
I mean, I think the old Disney movies were very
like binary, like I mentioned, and like how I experienced
the Christian Church was good or bad. So you're either
good or bad, hero or villain. If you're the hero,
you are gonna win and have a great life. If
you're the villain, you're gonna die and have a miserable
(35:40):
life and be ugly. And we like grew up with that.
And now they're just now creating movies that allow for
nuance around the villain.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
But yeah, I think like we grew up with this
very binary view of villains and good and bad, and
it's scary because you want to stay on the right.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Do you think that some people who are on reality
TV have an easier time channeling their inner villain?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I think from what I've seen with PARV and what
I've seen with other people from the shows that she's
been on, is that some people have easier access to
maybe these like more villainous parts, or they have less
shame around being perceived as bad. But I've also seen
(36:30):
people from the shows that she's been on that have
had a really hard time with being perceived as villainous.
I think Dan from Traders had a really hard time
in the reunion because people were taking it really personally
that he was a trader, and I think that was
really difficult for him. And we saw Peter on Traders
(36:50):
as well, fighting tooth and nail to be the good guy.
The good guy he turned down being a Trader because
he wanted to be a faithful so badly. So I
think it's a mixed bag, just like anywhere. But I
think that from what I've seen ultimately is that the
people that go on reality TV, and I'm sure you included,
it's something that you just have to build because you're
(37:11):
thrown into the public eye and people can be really
heartless at times, and so you just have to build
that capacity to be misunderstood. Yeah, but I don't think
you come out of the womb with more capacity for that.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Why do you think people are so drawn to watching
these types of villains on reality TV.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
I mean, it'd be so boring without the villain, Like,
are you getting me?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to
join me in the studio and come on to Rachel
gos Rogue. I just think that you're really onto something
and channeling your inner villain is a way to get
your power back and not live in shame. Just spreading
(37:58):
that awareness to other people so important.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I'm happy to be here and I'm glad to like
explore this topic with you because I feel like it's
important and it brings nuance into the world. We can
meet these dark parts of ourselves and then, like when
people see things on TV play out because you already
have compassion for those darker, nasty parts of you, you're
(38:24):
not as vicious towards other people's dark nasty parts. And
I think that's honestly world changing. So yeah, I'm really
grateful too have been invited here.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue.
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
at Rachel Goes Rogue Podcast.
This is Rachel Go's Rogue.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome back to another episode of Rachel Goes Rogue. This
is your host, Rachel Savannah Lovis, and today we are
channeling our inner villain and talking about embracing your villain era.
But it may not be what you think it is,
so we'll get into it. I have a very special guest,
Callie Klug. You may know her from her Instagram. I've
(00:34):
been following her for quite some time. Her instagram is
Callie Somatics. She is a certified somatic practitioner and yoga teacher.
Callie's teachings help clients access the inner wisdom of their
own bodies. She believes we all have the key within
ourselves to stop outsourcing our healing and unlock potent empowerment
(00:58):
from within. Cali, thank you, Oh my gosh, I'm so
happy to have you here. I've been a fan of yours,
following your stuff on social media, and just the way
that you embody this like presence of empowerment and the
way that you speak about embracing that villain part of
(01:22):
you is something that has changed my perspective on this
entire experience because it's not something that I'm necessarily trying
to suppress and deny, and so I want to thank
you for being so open and vulnerable with your content online.
And yeah, I'm just really happy to have you here.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So I hear you were voted friendliest in high school.
Would you say this is where your villain origin story began.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I would say it started even before that. I grew
up in like a very pervasive Christian church as well,
So I feel like growing up in that kind of context,
the line between good and bad it was so binary
and there was never like space for nuance. You're either good,
you're either bad. You're either going to heaven or going
(02:17):
to hell. There's like there's no one between. And so
for me, I grew up from a very young age
wanting to be good. I was like, I want to
go to heaven. I want to be a good girl.
I want to be perceived as good. And I think
that's definitely what won me that title in high school
of friendliest, because I was so desperate to avoid any
(02:40):
kind of interpersonal conflict and also I just wanted people
to think I was good desperately.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, So then what was the thing that shifted for you?
Did you do something that wasn't accepted by other people,
and I'm just like guessing, did you feel like this
immense amount of shame and felt like you were inherently
bad and then have to overcome that and what was
(03:09):
that thing for you? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I started getting therapy in twenty nineteen EMDR do you
know EMDR? And that was really supportive and starting to
allow my body, like to find safety, a certain level
of safety.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
And then a.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Few years ago that was I think that was like
the foundation for that. And then two years ago I
went through just like this slew of grief. And one
thing about grief is that it's so tiring and exhausting,
and with fawning and people pleasing, it's really high energy.
(03:50):
And so when I didn't have the energy anymore to
fawn and people please, I just I stopped. And all
of these relationshis and ships crumbled. I had entire friend
groups just leave me. They didn't like who I was anymore.
And I just felt like the entire structures of my
life that were built on this foundation of this contrived
(04:13):
personality that I had created to be liked were demolished
in like a summer. And it was so traumatic and
it wasn't consensual. I didn't set out for that, Like,
it just happened to me. And for me, that was
kind of how I just like I just was the
bad guy suddenly. Wow, And so I had I was
(04:34):
working with Poverty at that time. Yeah, I was doing
coaching with her. And she knows that so well. She
knows what it's like to not be liked. She knows
what it's like to be the villain in people's stories.
And she basically was like, you can either claw and
you know, fight your way to tell them that I
am good and be understood and put all your energy
(04:57):
towards that, which could be futile, or you could just
lean into it and be like and what if I'm bad?
And what? And that felt really like a release of
shame for me. And so for me, that's I think
how I started this work.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, so those who don't know Poverty
has been on the most recent Traders and she's a
legend because she like completely embraced her villain era and
just gives no fs at all. Basically, how did you
guys start working together during COVID?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I mean I think we all watched a lot of
TV during COVID, I got really into Survivor. Yeah, and
she's on four seasons of Survivor. I think, yeah four.
And I watched her in Heroes Versus Villains? Have you
seen that one?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I haven't know that one's really good.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I gues should watch that, Okay, but she is labeled
as a villain. Everyone in the tribes, both tribes actually
don't like her. They're trying to get her out. She
makes it to the end, and I was just like, I,
this girl has something that I want, this confidence, this
ability to stay true to yourself even when everyone's against you.
And I've somehow found her on Instagram and I realized
(06:18):
she was a yoga teacher and a life coach, and
I just needed what she was selling. I started working
with her, and I think that's how my brand was born,
because she basically taught me how to be a villain.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Very cool. I love that, Yeah, she did something great
because I feel like you definitely channeled that and you're
not afraid to speak about it. I feel like as females,
especially growing up, we're taught to be small, We're taught
not to speak out. I would think three times before
(06:54):
saying anything, and I didn't want to be disruptive. I
just wanted to be the good girl and almost like
not be noticed at all. And I also struggled with that.
I want to be inherently good. But if I'm not
one hundred percent good, am I bad? And just like
(07:17):
really working over time to.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Monitor because if you're bad, it's like, what does that mean?
You live a terrible life? Like I'm doomed to be miserable.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I won't be loved, I won't be worthy of love. Yeah,
all of those lies that were programmed in us from
a young age. Yeah, And I really didn't feel like
I was allowed to rebel, and so developmentally, I can
see how I have been immature and this has come
(07:54):
out in other ways in my life, hence Season ten
of vander Pump Rules. But just to back up, because
you were talking about fawning, and fawning is a trauma response.
There's fight, flight, freeze, and fawn and it's almost like
you're trying to appease another person. Can you talk a
(08:15):
little bit more about that.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, So the four trauma responses are very they're reflexive,
so we don't really choose them. It's completely chosen by
the body. So with a fight response, our body decides
that the most effective course of action is to go
towards the thing that's threatening to us and fight them.
And this usually looks like upwards energy, like yelling energy
(08:40):
in the arms, maybe you want to kick. It's a
sympathetic nervous system response, which means that it's very high
energy and explosive. So even as I'm like saying this,
like I can feel it in my body and it's
just an upward like explosive energy. It's also very high
risk most people. Once again, it's like more reflexive, but
(09:04):
most people don't choose this as their primary response because
it's higher like higher risk. You could get hurt, you
could get attacked, so most people don't have that as
a primary response.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Would you say that females are more conditioned to not
have that be your response.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, that's a great point because most women, if you
look at it just biologically, most women are smaller than
most men. So it doesn't even like our bodies are
so intelligent. We probably couldn't take a random man on
the street, you know. So our body knows that, and
that's why so many women fond so much. And we'll
(09:42):
like I can get more into that, but but yeah,
that's very true. Yeah. The other response is flight. So
in flight, your body decides the best thing to do
is to be propelled away from the threat. Usually that
looks like downwards energy energy to the legs. You're moving
away from the threat. Usually that's most people's preferred response.
(10:05):
Like perfect world, you just leave, like you just leave
the situation, you leave the person, you leave whatever's threatening
to you. And then we have freeze. So and freeze,
your body decides kind of like you said a minute ago,
you're like I almost just didn't want to exist or
like be seen in this situation. Your body decides the
best thing to do is to not exist and not feel.
(10:28):
And so if you think of like a place where
maybe you couldn't leave, like you're in a subway car
and a guy comes in and he's acting kind of
weird or like crazy, you might just go into freeze.
So it looks like the limbs everything kind of goes inwards.
There's like a collapsing that happens. Your breathing could get
(10:48):
really shallow, it could speed up. It's an activated state,
but externally you look frozen. And also there's a lot
of numbing that happens, so it's kind of a safe
of your response, Like a lot of victims of assault,
like might have an out of body experience because their
it's like a save Your body's just saving it. It's
like this is so terrible, I'm gonna propel you out
(11:11):
of here so you don't have to survive this or
experience this. Finally, there's fawn. So the fawn response is
really interesting because similar to fight, our body propels us
towards the threat, but instead of fighting the threat, we
actually appease the threat, and so this can look like
(11:33):
tension in the body. Usually fawn and freeze are blended,
so we're probably some on some level numbed out through
the sensations of our body. There's a clenching and embracing
that happens when you're interacting with this person, but there's
an appeasement, so you're prioritizing their experience over yours. And
(11:55):
this can look like fake laughing. It can look like
over emoting, it can look like leaning in, it can
look like laughing at jokes that you don't find funny.
It's almost like you're creating a chemistry that's just not there,
and it's very popular with women because and children because
biologically it just doesn't make sense for women and children.
(12:15):
What are we going to do? Fight not really viable option.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Once you realize that you have this trauma response and
these patterns, how do you then work to break it?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
It's really hard firsus of all, because it's like we're
really good at it, Like I'm really good at fawning,
and you're probably really good at fawning, and it's something
that by the time you're an adult, if you've been
doing it your whole life as a kid, you're an expert.
Like we could win the Olympics of fawning. So it's
so reflexive that it does take time. I think any
(12:54):
kind of thing that has to do with somatics and
just tuning into your experience of your body supportive because
if I'm like sitting here talking to you and I
like feel nauseous and I'm just like my stomach hurts
and I'm feeling clenching, that's information that my body's trying
to tell me, Like maybe it has to do with
(13:16):
the person, maybe it has to do with something else.
But I think just starting to tune into how is
my body experiencing this person this conversation. That's a really
good place to start.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And then like learning to prioritize your own needs, like
your need for that emotional wellness, because in the fawn response,
you are prioritizing the other person's needs and you're trying
to maybe even make the environment more enjoyable for that person,
(13:52):
to maybe regulate their emotions or you know, not say
the wrong thing. So it's like this piece of self
worth that is the underlying thing. I mean, for me anyway,
It's like that was the thing that I really realized
I am worthy of having my needs met and feeling
(14:13):
all of my emotions and like taking back ownership of
what's mine and not trying to like read other people's
minds and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It's probably so hard to because you're in the public
eye and it's hard enough to manage like five people,
let alone the view of countless people of how they're
perceiving you.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It was so bad, my fawning response that were so good. Yeah,
I had the worst social anxiety, like the worst, always
hyper vigilant of what other people thought of me, and
I was a mind reader and all this stuff and
going onto a sh show like vander Pump Rules. It's
(15:02):
like exposure therapy where I knew I would be able
to overcome it with constant exposure, testing my boundaries of
my limits and pushing myself and it definitely. I mean,
oh gosh, I'm just so happy I'm at the place
that I'm at now.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Do you feel like it helped?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It did? And I feel like maybe even this whole
experience helped me get to where I am now. Forces you,
It forced me and I have a voice now and
I feel the most myself I've ever felt, and that's
so empowering. So yeah, it's been this whole journey, but
(15:45):
I don't have social anxiety anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Okay, So how can we relate embracing your villain era
into overcoming the fawning response and the people pleasing.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, so for those of us who are recovering people pleasers,
we are so used to probably being overly accommodating, like
for us in our nervous system, being overly accommodating, overly
offering so much, saying so much. For us, when we
(16:24):
start to do less and say less and offer less,
it can feel like really villainous, like we're being bad people.
We're like, oh am I a bad person. I didn't
offer them the most, Like I'm I'm not hurting yet
in this relationship. That's weird because I haven't given so
much of myself and so for us, what feels normal
(16:47):
for so long that overgiving. When we start to do
that less, it can feel villainous. And so that's where
I've kind of play is like can you lean into that?
Can you make it a game? Because you're like ninety
percent of the time you're just saying no, I can't
go out, or no I'm too tired, and someone might
(17:09):
be upset with you or whatever, And I think a
way to play and make light of it and deshame
it is just okay, Well I'm in my villain era.
I'm allowing myself to be misunderstood.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, that's the huge part. It's like allowing yourself to
be misunderstood. Yeah, because if you have this response to
over explain yourself, that's draining. I feel like people who
(17:44):
are listening right now may be like, head's like a
red flag is going up, like a villain era. Really, really, Rachel,
You're gonna advocate for people to enter their villain era. Wow,
so I'm brand for you. What would you say to
the critics that are like, what are you saying? You're
just gonna be diabolical from here on out and you're
(18:05):
gonna like have no respect and no regard for other people?
Is there a limit that you put on yourself and
how do you do that?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
When it comes to healing from people pleasing and the
fawn response, there's this overswing that happens. I talk about
it a lot because people don't know it and they
start to heal from fawning and they're that they go,
why am I literally pissed to everyone? And what happens
when you people please and you fawn for so long
is that you either consent or don't consent. But either way,
(18:39):
there's so many boundary violations, little things, big things, and
font in fawning, you are suppressing. So, like I said,
it's coupled with that freeze response. So there's a suppression
of anger, and anger is a biological response that is
made to create boundaries and animals that's like what somatics is.
(19:02):
It's like going back, we have Amlian nervous systems. How
does this play out in nature and in nature, it
looks like animals taking space or attacking or you know,
doing this these big expressions of creating space, creating boundaries,
like cats like will swat at people and the cat's
not shamed for that. It's just doing what it knows
(19:24):
and what it's nervous system is wired for. And when
we have so many boundary violations from a lifetime of
people pleasing. I was twenty five when I started this,
twenty five years of swallowed nose, and I don't like this,
and all these things that I had suppressed. Anger turns,
you know, irritation, annoyance, anger, it's just becomes a well
(19:47):
of rage, like a reservoir of rage. And when you
start to heal from fawning, that comes out. It's like
and we're so not equipped for that on so many levels,
just like societally, we don't learn how to manage our
anger or meet our anger. And then on top of that,
if you are a big faunner, you probably haven't experienced
(20:10):
that before, and so it comes out in a way
that's really big and usually dissociative, so that can look
like I've done this, and everyone I've worked with has
experienced this, having big reactions to boundary violations that are
very disembodied and dissociative. You might not remember the conversation,
you might yell, you might, it's like very explosive. So
(20:35):
it's like a really explosive fight response. And the reason
I bring that up is because this overswing, there's two
things with it. Number One, it's natural. It's biologically documented,
like happens in animals. They have so many studies on
it where they've observed this freeze fawn response. Just going explosive'natural.
(21:00):
It's biological, and it's also shamed, and it's also can
be destructive. And so I think when it comes to
calibrating your villain era, it's really how can I feel
the anger and be like, Okay, I'm feeling pissed, I'm
(21:21):
feeling annoyed, I'm feeling irritated. How can I advocate for
myself and my body while staying embodied, Because if you're
staying embodied, it's not going to be like crazy, a
crazy reaction. I just won't because if you're staying embodied,
you're not going to go into rage because rage is
just too much for us to stay present with. Does
(21:42):
that make sense? It's like finding that sweet spot.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah. Yeah, it's like you're flexing a new muscle, and
so you're gonna go a little overboard, probably for the
first few times, as you're learning to set boundaries for
yourself and learning to feel your anger and what it's
telling you a boundary that has been violated, and it
just takes practice. And safe people hope a lot because
(22:12):
they will understand that this is a new thing for you,
or be open to that concept and not hold it
over your head and shame you. So it's super important
to surround yourself with healthy, safe people. And then I
was wondering because for me, it wasn't so much the
rage that well, I definitely was suppressing my rage. Don't
(22:34):
get me wrong, my anger was definitely suppressed for years,
like most of my life, but it was like that
selfishness that I never gave myself before. I was always
preoccupied with other people's needs and wanting to create a
(22:54):
better reality for them at my own expense. And so
when something switched in me where I had my breaking
point and I wasn't about it anymore, and I just
wanted to start living for myself because what the hell,
you know, And I took it too far. Season ten
(23:19):
has documented that, and new viewers of the show have
tuned in just for that season and that's all they see.
There's clearly like a backstory to this girl who's having
a whole psychotic break on camera. But I just became
so selfish and like narcissistic, honestly, And I feel like
(23:42):
it was that overswing that maybe needed to happen for
me to find a middle ground now, because now I
know exactly how it feels to completely disregard everyone else's
experience but my own, and I don't want to be
in that place again. So it's like this balance between
(24:10):
being quote unquote a good person because I ultimately want
to be a good person, and then I don't want
to go too far back into the fawning response where
I am defending myself and I am spending my energy
doing that and working towards, i don't know, managing my reputation.
(24:32):
So I didn't want to swing too far back that way.
And it's still I'm still navigating this middle ground.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, it's it takes a minute, I think, to find equilibrium.
And I think that, like I said, with myself, with
most people in my life, and with everyone that I've
worked with, there is an overswing that can look different
for everyone. It's usually not documented on national TV and
(25:02):
picked apart and criticized, so I can't imagine what that
is like, but it looks different for everyone, and finding
that sweet spot is harder than people think.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Can you talk about shame a little bit? Because I
feel like part of embracing your villain era is accepting
the fact that you may be a villain in someone
else's story, and once you realize that, you probably feel
a healthy amount of shame about it. But then there's
(25:36):
also this external shame that could be toxic how and obviously,
like embracing your villain era releases some of that shame.
But for you, can you describe the difference between guilt
and shame?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, So shame is so heavy in the body. I
think it's has an important role in very small doses
to kind of shape you into society. You know, so
we're not all just like actual animals, Like that's not ideal.
(26:13):
So I think in that way, in small, temporary doses,
it's good. But I don't think that's how most people
experience shame. I think most of us feel as something
that's really pervasive and heavy. It does two things. It
will bring you into a freeze response, because shame is
(26:36):
an intense feeling, and anything that's too overwhelming for the
body will probably bring you into a freeze. And so
there's a shutdown that happens. It's not really good for
you or anyone else if you're in a freeze state.
And then also it's like a dampener. So there's no
expression that happens in shame. And that's why the the
(27:00):
villain era de shaming. It's like, like what you're saying,
with everything that happened, you obviously feel bad, Like you
don't have to prove that to people. I feel like
at a certain point, if I do something bad to someone,
I'm not psychopathic, I'm gonna feel bad about that. Like
the guilt, I'll feel guilty. Hopefully that leads to corrective
(27:22):
behavior if necessary. But the shame is just doesn't even
serve a purpose. And so that's where the inner villain
work comes. It's like people hate me, Can I can
I love that? Can I like it that people are
they can't get your name out of their mouth? Like
is there a little part of you that's kind of like, oh, okay,
(27:45):
or like can you play with that? And I think
that's where the release of shame happens. And then also
just like parts work, I'm really big on parts work.
Can you accept those dark, nasty parts of you? Everybody
has them and if you ostracize them, they're gonna just
come back stronger, like that anger I just talked about.
So can you bring them in and love them? Be
(28:06):
like it's cool, We're chill. Let's you know.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Extending that compassion to those parts of you. It allows
for you to be a whole, integrated adult who's functional
and healthy, and that's ultimately the goal.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Yeah, I would love that. Yeah, that's the dream.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Okay, what is divine rage?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I came from the yoga world, which is very spiritual
and very we rise above our anger, and anger is
not good and how can you release negative emotions like anger?
And that verbiage just pisses me off because that's just
not how it works. We live in bodies that are
animal bodies, so you're going to be angry, and that
anger serves a purpose. And I think a lot of
(29:03):
people don't understand that. And that's why I call it
divine rage because or divine anger divine rage, because it's
something that's so beautiful and a piece of the puzzle
that a lot of us just don't understand.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Wow. Yeah, I love the way that you're able to
talk about it because it changes your perspective. So when
you're feeling these emotions, you don't feel like you need
to suppress it. It's like, oh, this is my divine
anger coming up. This is the part of me that's
telling me that a boundary has been violated. And now
(29:40):
I know it's telling me like I need to advocate
for myself and make a change, and that is so
divine within you. So just shifting your perspective on these
complex constructs that I feel like have been shamed by
society is so important to becoming a healthier person.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah. I love anger. Yeah, I talk about it so much.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I love anger now too. And there was I had
an assignment at the Meadows where obviously my therapist could
recognize that I was suppressing my anger, and I had
to realize that as human beings, we're supposed to feel
(30:30):
all of our emotions, and all of our emotions are
I don't know, it's healthy to feel all of them,
and anger is not a bad emotion. It's a difficult emotion.
And then I was allowing myself to break out of
the denial that I was in in that relationship. I
(30:52):
talked about it on this podcast before, but like a
pivotal moment for me was journaling, doing a fantasy buster's
list and really writing down all of the hard proof
evidence that this person I was involved with was not
healthy for me, and just the specifics with that, and
(31:13):
all of a sudden, I just was overcome with anger.
I had to go for a run and I was
not stopping. I was running around the campus. I was screaming.
I went to the Smoke Pit sorority and I was
like Rachel, my friend Rachel that was there. It was like, Rachel,
(31:36):
I'm so effing done with Tom. And she was like, wait,
what did you just say? And I was like, I'm
so done with Tom. And she's like, wait, I need
you to say that a little louder. I didn't hear you.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And I was like, I'm done with.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Tom and she's like again, I'm done with Tom. I'm
so effing done with Tom. And we were all screwed
dreaming it at the top of our lungs. We missed
our first lecture at eight fifteen am that morning, but
it was like so therapeutic to do that with other
women and just like feeling that anger and allowing myself
(32:14):
to share that with other people. It was a huge
pivotal moment for me because then I really was like, okay,
like these boundaries have been violated. I can now see
how I was betraying myself and allowing this to happen.
And I'm no longer doing that.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Being seen in your anger and letting that and having
that be a safe experience with your girlfriends, that's special
and anger you. So I'm getting trained right now in
somatic experiencing, and when someone starts to feel angry, it's
actually we celebrate it. It's really exciting because it means
(32:54):
you're coming out of the freeze response, you're coming out
of a chronic fawn. And it's literally an essential step
in finding nervous system regulation. Again, you can't sidestep it.
So yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It's crazy to think about too now that you say
it's an essential part of nervous system regulation because I
look at some people who have like anger issues and
have issues containing their anger and just like going off
and I look at those people as not emotionally regulated people.
(33:32):
But on the flip side of that, someone who doesn't
express their anger at all is also considered not emotionally
regulated as well. Yeah, you just don't quite think of
it that way. But the villain era stuff, I think,
I think a lot of people are familiar with, like, oh,
she's embracing her villain era, but you know, there are
(33:53):
still some people that only want to root for the
hero essentially, but personally, Like watching movies, it always fascinates
me getting to know the villain character and their backstory
and the reason why they have become so evil. You know,
(34:16):
there's always a reason. Like, for instance, the Joker, we
see that whole journey in this like mental illness that
has shaped him and being shunned by society and that isolation.
(34:37):
Also like Maleficent Sleeping Beauty that you know which that
comes in and casts a spell on Sleeping Beauty when
she was born, and of course we all hate her
in the beginning because we're really, why the heck would
she do that to a poor little baby, an innocent
little child. But then you know that backstory, we learned
(34:59):
like there was resentment there towards the King and Queen,
and you know, she just wanted a place belonging to.
So I think it's like all of these human we're
all human.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Almost like those stories have nuance, yes, because people are nuanced.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
People are nuanced exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
It's like really not that crazy of a concept. Yeah,
I mean, I think the old Disney movies were very
like binary, like I mentioned, and like how I experienced
the Christian Church was good or bad. So you're either
good or bad, hero or villain. If you're the hero,
you are gonna win and have a great life. If
you're the villain, you're gonna die and have a miserable
(35:40):
life and be ugly. And we like grew up with that.
And now they're just now creating movies that allow for
nuance around the villain.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
But yeah, I think like we grew up with this
very binary view of villains and good and bad, and
it's scary because you want to stay on the right.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Do you think that some people who are on reality
TV have an easier time channeling their inner villain?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I think from what I've seen with PARV and what
I've seen with other people from the shows that she's
been on, is that some people have easier access to
maybe these like more villainous parts, or they have less
shame around being perceived as bad. But I've also seen
(36:30):
people from the shows that she's been on that have
had a really hard time with being perceived as villainous.
I think Dan from Traders had a really hard time
in the reunion because people were taking it really personally
that he was a trader, and I think that was
really difficult for him. And we saw Peter on Traders
(36:50):
as well, fighting tooth and nail to be the good guy.
The good guy he turned down being a Trader because
he wanted to be a faithful so badly. So I
think it's a mixed bag, just like anywhere. But I
think that from what I've seen ultimately is that the
people that go on reality TV, and I'm sure you included,
it's something that you just have to build because you're
(37:11):
thrown into the public eye and people can be really
heartless at times, and so you just have to build
that capacity to be misunderstood. Yeah, but I don't think
you come out of the womb with more capacity for that.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Why do you think people are so drawn to watching
these types of villains on reality TV.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
I mean, it'd be so boring without the villain, Like,
are you getting me?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to
join me in the studio and come on to Rachel
gos Rogue. I just think that you're really onto something
and channeling your inner villain is a way to get
your power back and not live in shame. Just spreading
(37:58):
that awareness to other people so important.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I'm happy to be here and I'm glad to like
explore this topic with you because I feel like it's
important and it brings nuance into the world. We can
meet these dark parts of ourselves and then, like when
people see things on TV play out because you already
have compassion for those darker, nasty parts of you, you're
(38:24):
not as vicious towards other people's dark nasty parts. And
I think that's honestly world changing. So yeah, I'm really
grateful too have been invited here.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue.
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