June 19, 2024 • 48 mins
Rachel and former Love is Blind contestant, Jeremy Hartwell, address head on the boundaries for reality TV stars. Do reality stars deserve the good, the bad and the ugly?
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome back to another episode
of Rachel Goes Rogue. This is your host, Rachel Savannah Levis,
and I'm very excited to bring on a guest today
who is really making waves in this reality TV realm
(00:27):
and bringing awareness to the issues that are obvious to
all of us.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
At this point.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Mental health has been something that hasn't really been discussed
with reality TV, and now it's actually in the forefront
of everyone's minds and we're all aware of the problem.
Now we have somebody who is working on the solution.
So I'm very excited to bring on my friend Jeremy
(00:58):
who created the ut Camp Foundation. The UCAM Foundation is
a nonprofit organization dedicated to advocating for the mental health
and legal needs of unscripted reality TV cast members. You
Can was founded by two alumni, Jeremy Hartwell and Nick
Thompson of Netflix popular series Love Is Blind, along with
(01:22):
clinical psychologists and couples therapist doctor Isabelle Morley. Jeremy is
an executive director, and the UCAM Foundation have successfully helped
hundreds of cast members, added dozens of verified therapists and
attorneys to its network, and has opened the dialogue on
the need for protections for vulnerable cast members who often
(01:46):
find themselves exploited for ratings. Today, we're doing something a
little bit different since Jeremy is obviously full of knowledge
and experiences in this world, and I obviously am the
host of this podcast, but my producers are here as
(02:08):
well to ask questions, and I want to get in
on this dialogue too, because we both have experienced a
lot when it has come to reality TV and how
it has impacted our lives and our thoughts and feelings
on it all. So I'm having my producers here and
(02:29):
we're gonna bring in Jeremy. Welcome, Jeremy Heartwell, I'm very
happy to have you here.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It's good to see you again.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, good to see you too.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
The last time I spoke to Jeremy was that the
Hollywood and Mind Summit in Los Angeles, and it was
very refreshing to see so many people advocating for the
rights of past members and there was still the need
for that discussion to be had around reality TV stars,
(03:01):
but I felt like Jeremy and I were there to
kind of be that representation and get more knowledge on
it and see where we can implement what they were
talking about in the entertainment industry and how to apply
that into this issue that we're seeing with reality TV stars.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Yeah, I think you guys were definitely popular there. They
were very interested in you, both in your stories and
your perspectives, and that's kind of why we want to
have this conversation today. So I'm going to ask some
questions and you're going to start out sort of being
targeted towards you, Jeremy, and I want more of a
conversation between the two of you. Rachel already did a
brilliant introduction on what you Can is, but I'd like
(03:45):
to hear from you in your short form what is
you Can?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah, and first of all, thanks so much for having
me on the show here. I'm really excited to talk
to both of you. You Can is a nonprofit that
I found it as at its highest lene. It's a
cast advocacy group, and I started it basically because when
I came out of filming, it was really hard for
me to find any support, both from a mental health
and a legal perspective, but also just cast community. Obviously,
(04:14):
I knew the cast members from my season and it
was great talking to them but there's literally tens of
thousands of reality TV cast members across the past couple
of decades, and the ability to reach out to them,
to talk to them, to discuss, to share things just
wasn't there. So I wanted to start something that really
brought people together and gave them the resources they needed
(04:37):
to not just like get back to baseline from before
the shows, but to actually succeed in prive.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
That's sounds great, And about how many people have you
sort of worked with and helped today?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, that's a really good question. We've talked to between
myself and Nick Thompson, who's the other co founder. He
was a cast member on my as well, probably a
lot well more known than I am. But we've talked
to probably over two hundred cast members at this point,
and a lot of them are just looking for a community,
right They're looking for someone to share their story. I
had a cast member from a it was a you know,
(05:14):
one of those business entrepreneurship shows that were more popular,
you know, a couple of years ago to a decade ago.
He had not told people a certain story, a traumatic event,
for ten years. I was the first person he opened
up to because he felt that no one else could understand,
and he was so grateful just to be able to
share his story with somebody who could empathize. There wasn't
(05:35):
really anything else beyond that, and I think that's a
lot of what we're seeing is people just want to talk,
they want to share, they want that community. But more importantly,
we are also succeeding in the areas where we want
to talk. We want to link CAST members up with
the mental health and legal resources that they need, not
just want, but need, and we've added well over one
(05:56):
hundred therapists to our network. We interview them, we bring
them on board, we make sure that they're qualified to
talk to CAST members, and we've also partnered with some
very prominent attorneys, and to date we've helped several people
basically defend themselves from unfair allegations or lawsuits by an
industry that's trying to keep everybody quiet because they don't
(06:20):
want the dirty laundry air. When people speak up and
talk about these things, they get sued. And even if
there's no basis for the lawsuit, you still have to
pay a lawyer to defend yourself, right, And so the
tactic there generally is to just keep people quiet because
they don't have the means to defend themselves, so they'll
just stop talking.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Jeremy, let's talk about that. I'm gonna interrupt. But reality
has been around for a while.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Now.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Why is that suddenly this is happening and there's a
need for organizations like you can't? Why now?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, that's a great question, and I think you have
to look at other areas in the industry or other
issues that have come up that have for decades, and
it takes a long time for some of these things
to come to the forefront. Right, And I'm not equating
this to the me Too movement, but it's similar in
that regards. Right, that abuse, that victimization had been going
(07:13):
on for decades. Right, just because it didn't come to
the forefront until recently, doesn't mean it wasn't an issue
for decades. And it's a similar thing here. Part of
the reason is you have these very heavy handed arbitration
clauses in these contracts, and you have aggressive and assertive
and powerful, well funded production companies who they use these
(07:35):
arbitration agreements to essentially keep any dispute private. So what
an arbitration clause is basically if you have an issue
with the production company or if you have an issue
with something in the contract. Basically what it says is
you're not allowed to file a public dispute. You have
to bring it up privately, and we're going to tell
you who the arbiters are going to be, and they're
(07:55):
going to be the ones making the decision. Whatever the
decision is, whether we have to pay you money as
damages or whether nothing comes of it. It remains sealed
so it never gets out in the public. And I
think if you look back, you can see like little
drips of this over decades, right, You'll see a little
story here or there about something coming out, but you
never get the details because it's always been handled in arbitration.
(08:17):
And that's one of the things we're trying to change.
And that's one of the things we're working to change,
is to try to find a way to get these
out of arbitration, to get cash members empowered to speak
their truth and own their narrative.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Would you say, and actually, Rachel, you can speak to
this too, because I think this has affected you as well.
Is that to what you were just mentioning? The idea
is that they're using their power. They're using their money,
they're using their expertise against people they hope have none
of that right, and so the power dynamic is obviously
is obviously skewed. And I feel it's that they are
(08:53):
counting on the fact that you don't know the laws,
and Rachel, you had experience in that area.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, but I feel like there's laws protecting people from
being able to speak out about abusive situations in the workplace,
and it just seems like they're really trying to pull
a fast one on a lot of people who don't
have the resources to defend themselves, and they're doing it
(09:22):
as a way. It's a scare tactic to prevent other
people from speaking out. Like I've spoken to multiple people
who have experienced stuff and they're too scared to say
anything about it, And I wish I could have them
on my podcast, and maybe one day I will, But
it's very unfortunate that people are afraid to speak out
(09:47):
about it.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
So this is actually to both of you, what do
you say, because we hear this a lot. I know
Rich you've heard a lot. I'm sure Jeremy you hear
it on a day to day basis. Oh, poor reality
stars they signed up to be on this show. They
know what they were signing up for. Why do they
need help or why should we feel sorry for them?
How would you guys answer that?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
I guess like I'll, I do get this a lot.
And I you know, on the one hand, I understand
that perspective. As a viewer, you only see this tiny
glimpse of what's happening. And not only that, the information
that you have about the process, right, anything outside of
the show, most of that is propaganda that's been fed
to you by these production companies so that they can
(10:31):
keep their image and they can keep their squeaky clean,
and they can shift the blame and blame the victims. Right.
So like I empathize and I understand what that perspective.
I think there's no reason why most people would have
a different perspective. But that's why you can is so important.
That's why this conversation is so important. We've there is
not a single cast member I have talked to that
(10:53):
said they were they like everything they were told, everything
in the contract matched their experience. The mismat is massive, right,
What they tell you, what you sign up for, what
you read in the contract is not even close to
indicative of what actually happens. And that's one of the
issues right there, is if you're not getting this full disclosure,
(11:14):
you do you literally right, and I mean I mean
that in the proper sense. You literally do not know
what you're signing up for. But you also have no
way of finding out because they have these very strong
non disclosure agreements, so you can't even find out from
somebody else. And you know, I think the other aspect
of that is to viewers, it's one it's time to
(11:37):
believe the victims. All the cast members that are speaking up,
they're all saying the exact same thing.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, And in your case, it's a little bit different
than my situation with vander Pump rules. When people here like, oh,
cast members need more rights or there needs to be changed,
they become afraid that people like you want to take
down Reality TV and to like completely change it and
(12:04):
it won't be entertaining anymore. What do you have to
say to somebody that has that belief?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think, first
of all, to put any fears to rest, we're not
trying to kill reality TV. I think you know, it's
a it's obviously a popular form of entertainment, and you know,
I don't personally blame anybody for enjoying reality TV. It's
something that a lot of people like, and it adds
positive value to people's lives to watch it. So, but
(12:31):
I think it's important to understand we're not asking for
anything special. We're not we're not trying to demand that
cast members get something special. We're asking for basic human rights.
And like, I pause there because it's so critical and
it's so important. So as a viewer, you have a
day job, right, You're allowed to go to the bathroom
(12:54):
when you want to. You can take a break, you
can go for a walk outside if you need a
little bit of sunlight. Right you You're allowed to go
home and get eight hours of sleep. These are basic
human We're allowed to eat when you want. These are
basic human rights. And it's a lot of things that
are that cast members are systemically deprived of across all
(13:17):
shows and all genres, and like even on like a
vander Pump Rules, it's still it's a lesser degree, but
there's still a lot of things that are taken away
from you. You know, from our conversations and from what
you've told me it's similar in that regard. And again,
the important thing to keep in mind for viewers is
we're all we're asking for is that production companies treat
(13:39):
cast members like people. That's that's literally it. It's it
doesn't seem like it should be a very high bar.
And I think if any if anybody understands that and
doesn't think that that should be the case or is
offended by that, I quite honestly don't want you in
our corner.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
But let's talk about that for a minute, because that's
a really good point. Do you see the and this
is to both of you, the climate changing of the viewer,
because I feel like you see so much. What used
to be really voyeuristic we would watch and it would
be a guilty pleasure is now participatory. And I think Rachel,
you've said on past podcasts that what the fans are
(14:27):
seeing and their emotions and the anger that is, you know,
sort of drawn, you know, stirred up. Do you feel
that's impacting the end result and maybe why people aren't
feeling sorry or not that's not necessarily the right word,
but feeling compassion towards those that are going through it.
Do you think the climate has changed for the viewer
(14:50):
towards reality.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, and I want to.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Back up just a little bit to what Jeremy was saying,
and we can.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Tie this in production.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Reading cast members as humans is not that big of
an ask. And I feel like, personally, I have felt
like production has treated me as a human and encouraged
me to speak out and share my side of the
story whatever that may be a little manipulative at times,
but still treating me like a human. The part where
(15:23):
I have an issue in my experience from how this
scandal rocked the nation.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
It was like I was no.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Longer a human in their eyes, the way that they
allowed people to speak about me, and I pushed further
these lies to excel this narrative that suited them, and
I felt like I was ejectified, and that was I
was no longer a human and they weren't seeing me
(15:57):
as like, oh, there's a an actual person on the
receiving end of all of this hate. Totally, it was
just like a means to an end to get ratings.
All they could see was dollar signs and it was
like that personally, I feel like it was that greed
that was the motivator in the drive and it took
(16:18):
priority over all else and so that's where it hurts.
That hurts me because I became a character and not
a human being.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Good point well, and actually too too. The other one
of the other points that Jerry made about believing the victim,
It wasn't until Rachel came out with her scenario as
the result of what she just described and got treatment
for mental health issues and anxieties, et cetera, that then
the network came out and sort of put disclaimers saying
(16:51):
that they had mental health efficause they didn't have that
for you. Correct, Rachel, No, they did it.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
They did not.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
And now then, funnily enough, this season really focus a
lot on everybody's mental health and that was all as
a result of your noise, your conversations.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Well, yeah, it's especially frustrating when we see Tom Sandoval
get these this like special treatment for expressing that he
has dark thoughts, and none of that was extended in
the same regard towards me. In fact, you know, production
was willing to go the extra mile and get my
(17:29):
dog involved when that did not need to happen. And
it's just like very gut wrenching and disgusting to think about,
and the disclaimers that we see feel like we should
also disclaim the abuse that you see between cast members
on the show and the unhealthy relationship dynamics because all
(17:52):
of that is being normalized on reality TV too. And Jeremy,
I mean, what is your stance on that. Do we
want to see this change in reality TV? Or is
it more so the production to the cast relationship.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I'm gonna
I'm going to back up a little bit first and
just add some context that I think it's so important
for viewers to understand that while reality TV or a
better term is unscripted, right, While unscripted right, nobody's memorizing
a script, it's still produced. And that's really really important
(18:32):
for people to understand, right, because when they're watching you
on the screen, or they're watching anybody on the screen,
not only are viewers only seeing a tiny sliver of
what's happening, they're seeing the angle that the producers want
them to see, right. And you know, it could also
and that's that's the best case scenario. It could even
(18:53):
get so bad that you're just totally misrepresented in a
way that never happened. And a really good example is,
I mean, everybody listening to this has probably hopefully laughed
at one point today, right. So imagine if you're on
a reality TV show and you have cameras in front
of you for anywhere from like eight to fifteen hours
(19:14):
a day, they're going to capture you laughing. Right. All
they have to do is take another clip of let's say,
an off color joke or something like something, an offensive joke, right,
and then cut to you laughing at that joke, right.
And that laugh could have happened three days beforehand, or
maybe three days after, it doesn't matter. They stitch that together.
They make it seem like you're laughing at that joke,
(19:36):
and now all of a sudden, you are that person,
even though that event never actually happened. And the really
insidious thing is, and this is again, I've read a
bunch of contracts from a bunch of different shows, in
a bunch of different genres, and they all basically say
the same thing is, we're allowed to say production, right.
We production are allowed to say anything we want. We're
(19:58):
allowed to defame you. It says that in a lot
of these contracts, and you cannot say anything to the contrary.
You're not allowed to defend yourself, you're not allowed to
clear the air, you're not allowed to tell your truth,
and if you do, we're going to sue you. And
that really irks me because it's if you own anything
in this life, it's your own narrative, like it's your
(20:21):
own life, it's your own journey. The fact that they're
taking that away from us and taking it away from people,
it should infuriorate people. And the fact that they threaten
people with lawsuits if they do try to take that back.
So I think it circles back to this notion that
how you're portrayed is a produced effort that can go
(20:42):
anywhere from like adhering somewhat close to reality to being
a totally contrived situation that didn't happen. And viewers have
to also understand the cast is not allowed to speak
to say the truth, They're not allowed to go against
the story in the narrative, or they're going to get sued.
And that's where the fear. And so I think disclaimers
(21:02):
can go a long way. And we have these disclaimers around,
you know, like based on a true story, you have
a disclaimer like, hey this you know, this is based
on actual events but has been dramatized for entertainment purposes. Right,
Why can't we put something like that on top of it?
And why aren't we allowing cast members to say, Hey,
(21:23):
this is what they showed for entertainment, but let me
tell you what actually happened. Right? We allow scripted actors
to do that. Right. You have all sorts of actors
playing villains, right, really bad characters. Imagine if that industry
forced them to take on that character as their entire
life now right now they're a villain, Right, that's ridiculous.
(21:46):
The fact that this industry is not allowing that same thing.
I don't see how it takes away from the entertainment value.
I don't see how it takes away from profitability. All
it does is add some humanity in, some compassion and
some empathy to it. Right, Why can't we do that?
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yeah? Well, I was actually going to ask the question
about something that anybody that was ever considering being on
a reality show, that you might warn them, But you
hit on a lot. But I'd like to ask you
each to give me one thing that you would use
as a warning to somebody or something they should know
about if they were considering going on a reality TV show.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
It's risky. Really look at the risk versus reward. I
think if you have a game plan going on a
reality TV show and you're using it as a means
to an end to launch some sort of business and
know exactly who you are and what boundaries you have
in place for yourself, and you're okay with people misunderstanding you,
(22:45):
and you also are okay with the risk that you
may be the villain, then go for it because it's
a means to an end. And if you're strong enough
to do that, just you know, like what, you would
have to have thick skin and kind of.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Know what you're getting yourself into. But if that's not
the case, it's difficult because.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You know, I went into this like not having a
brand or a business or a vision for anything like that.
And I feel like a lot of people who do
join reality shows like vander Pump Rules anyway, have that
type of business mindset, and they are seeing it as
(23:30):
a way to propel themselves into fame and to use
fame as a resource for me. I just thought it
would be a good opportunity to step outside of my
comfort zone and develop my making skills and overcome social
anxiety and have a little fun and get paid for
(23:50):
living my life. And I truly thought it was real,
and through time I've experienced different types of things that
show that it's not quite that. It also puts you
in a vulnerable position. With a show like Real Housewives
or vander Pump Rules, with recurring cast, you're creating relationships
(24:16):
with these people and your life becomes completely enmeshed with
the storylines and what is happening and being presented to
the rest of the world. So it's very confusing, and
it allows for yourself to be more vulnerable to manipulation.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And that is producer's middle name.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
You know what that just made me think of and
tied with what you just said, Rachel, and with Jeremy
alluded to a little bit earlier. The rest of the
world look at athletics, look at I nil deals, name, image, likeness,
They're giving them back to the athletes, right, So all
the big organizations are giving the power to the athletes.
This is one of those industries that's still holding. Like
(25:04):
to your point, they own it and Rachel, you and
I have a well all of us have a mutual
reality star friend who was talking about she'd been off
the shows for like ten years and she went to
Australia and her face was on the billboards. Like, when
you sign those agreements, they're owning that. And to your point,
jarm me, your life and your journey should be the
one thing you are guaranteed to own. But once you
(25:25):
sign those contracts, you don't have that anymore.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, it's and again, whether that's legal or not is not.
You know, a conversation I can have, but I don't
think it's ethical. I don't think it's right. And you know,
to answer your question, you know, I have a caution
and then advice for anyone considering reality TV. And this
spins off of what Rachel was saying is producers are
(25:49):
not your friend. They they are there because you fit
a certain character, archetype, and a storyline, and they're there
to produce your storyline. Their motivation is ratings and profit. Right,
they it might work out that they can be totally
friendly and nice to you while that happens, right, that
could be a happy coincidence, But the bottom line is
(26:11):
they are not your friend. And what makes that even
worse is they their job is to make it seem
like they're your best friend. So you tell them all
their secrets so they know all of your buttons and
so that they can have the easiest job that they
have to push you in the storyline in the direction
that they want you to go. Right. So my caution is, like,
(26:32):
never confuse the friendliness of a producer with actual friendship.
Understand the dynamics, Understand their incentives. And I'm not saying
they're bad people, right, you know, there probably are some
bad producers, but really they're operating within a system that
incentivizes them in a certain way. And so understand the incentives.
Understand that they're not incentivized to be your friend. They're
(26:53):
incentivized to produce you based upon a storyline that was
often predetermined for you. And so that's an important caution,
and you know, to sort of give you the flip
side of that coin, my advice would be find other
cast members to reach out to, ideally like on a
previous season from the same show, or really any cast
(27:14):
member from any show is going to be able to
give you good advice. And that's again, that's one of
the reasons that you can't exist is we're trying to
facilitate that communication.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
So this I have a question for both of you.
Has your personal experience tainted the way that you watch
reality TV as a whole? And can you even or
do you even watch any reality TV?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I watch Love on the Spectrum, and I like that
show because I don't know, it's just very sweet and innocent,
and it just seems like, you know, these people who
are on the autism spectrum are navigating a dating world
and you wouldn't really experience that unless you have like
(28:00):
a sibling or a family member who you can kind
of like know that type of information. But I just
find it very endearing. But to answer your question, no,
I don't love watching reality TV shows. I did watch
during the pandemic, and I guess when people are talking
about a reality TV show so much, it's.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Kind of like this is what everyone's talking about.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Like I need to be in the know so I
know what these conversations are so I could see how
like everyone got on the bandwagon on watching vander pump
Rolls that season ten. But yeah, it definitely has tainted
the way I view reality TV. I can normally tell
(28:44):
with the audio if something had been inserted as a
wildline into a scene, and I question, like, oh, did
that person really make that facial movement when they're showing that,
Like I question everything, and so I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I just don't see it as real.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
So it's I take everything with a grain of salt
when I watch that, and I hardly watch it because
that makes sense. A lot of them are toxic too,
Like I'm watching I'm watching The Valley just so I
can be in the know with that, and I have
a friend on there, and it's a lot, it's it's heavy,
(29:25):
and I don't know if I want to spend my
time consuming that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yeah, it's so interesting what you're talking about with like
trying to pick out the different scenes of like was
that played fuller? And the scene after? Like what about
that glass of water? Like is that higher now? Like
I think to a lot of people that might sound
like paranoia, but to people who have gone through that experience,
it's not. It's the truth. Like, so you start to
(29:53):
become really sensitive to finding those things. And at this
really interesting point me personally, I didn't really watch reality
TV before. It's changed my perception quite a bit. Obviously
in terms of like how it's produced, the ethical implications
of it. So I don't really watch it much either. Again,
(30:14):
it's not really a difference or a change from prior
to show. I think it's just my understanding of how
it's produced has changed my perspective on like reality TV
in general. And again, you know, going back to what
you said about watching Love on the Spectrum, Rachel, I
think it's I you know, you clearly it's an enjoyable show,
(30:35):
Like there's some purity and some innocence there, right, And
again I think back to one of the first points.
We're not trying to get rid of reality TV. There's
there's good entertainment, there's good shows out there. But imagine
if you can watch these shows and just feel confident
knowing they were produced ethically and the cast we're taking
care of. You can't right now, that's the problem. Imagine
(30:58):
if you could watch one of these shows, any of
these shows, and know for a fact, hey, like I'm
just watching the on screen drama, Like people are going
to be people. You don't. You don't need to deprive
them of sleep for them to get dramatic. You don't.
You don't need to create fake scenarios with frank and
biting and you know, cuts from different days in a
single conversation to create the drama. People aren't freaking dramatic, Like,
(31:23):
let that drama shine through.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Human behavior is the part that is so fascinating with
unscripted TV. It's like we're getting a peek into someone
else's life that lives completely different than maybe we do,
and we're like, oh, I wonder what it's like to
walk in their shoes, and it's just interesting people living
and it doesn't need to be something so like more
(31:51):
than that and twisted and so manipulative, and it messes
with your mind. I swear like every single cast member
on vanderpump Rule has been. There's a little bit of
a screw loose for all of us because when you're
on a recurring cast, you start to have this feeling like, Okay,
(32:13):
I'm not in control of my own narrative, So what
am I going to do to take back some of
my control? You start self producing and then that's also
when fans are reacting now to like why are the
cast self producing?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
This is not like what we want to see.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
It's not authentic, and it's it's hard though, because it's
like you self produce because you want to take back
your control on your own image and your narrative, and
it's just this loop cycle.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
So recently a network came out speaking to the fans,
actually reminding them that the contestants or the reality stars
are having an experience and to be kind, do you
think that's a tiny hint of change on behalf of
(33:20):
the networks towards the scenario or what do you think
about that?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I think it's a signal that the narrative is changing, right,
because it's a reaction. They didn't do this on their own,
like that that's the first kind of flag that we
should look at. It took pressure for them to do
something that should have been happening all along, right, But
I personally worry about, you know, corporate whitewashing, which is
where you create an image of change or an image
(33:46):
of improvement to satisfy the outcry without actually doing anything
about it. And like, I don't know this particular studio
that put out the statement, but I you know, it's
very possible and very likely that this same studio, their
social media team is actively promoting the events, the narrative,
the structures, the vitriol against cast members, right, So it
(34:11):
really seems like that's kind of you know, it's it's
disingenuous because on the one hand they're saying, oh, please
be kind, but on the other hand, they're like, oh, well,
this person is the villain, you should hate them, right,
And that's a bit of an exaggeration. But these these
social these massive social media teams do fuel that, and
until they stop fueling that, that's not real change. You're
(34:33):
just covering it up. And I think the second point
I want to make is you can't let them police themselves.
And again, it all comes down to incentives. And we're
capitalist society. If we want to talk about late stage capitalism,
that's a whole different podcast. But the point is the
only incentive right now is profit maximization, in maximizing shareholder value.
(34:57):
There's a law in the books that says you have
to maximize sharehold their value. Right. You can literally go
to jail if you don't in extreme cases. So, like,
you have to look at the incentives and you have
to realize that under this system, under these incentives, the
companies policing themselves like this, it doesn't work because there's
no incentive to actually enforce it. So what we need
(35:17):
is we need a third party who is not affiliated,
it's not paid for by the company, to ensure that
these things are actually happening and these changes are actually
being made. We I would you know, I would caution,
and I would ask everybody to question any sort of
change that is self policing.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
That's a really good point, Rachel. I would think that
that really resonates with you too, because you know, in
your show, everybody on that show had affairs and had whatevers,
and none of it got to the point that your
situation did. And once the genie was out of the bottle,
so to speak, the pot was stirred through the social
(36:01):
media banter in the direction on the media. Would you
agree with that, Rachel.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, I mean, as Jeremy was speaking, it kind of
flashed me back to last summer when Lisa supposedly went
on Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen and was
telling people that remember, these are people, these are real
lives that we're talking about. And it was major, major
(36:30):
damage control because my publicist was in contact with them
specifically saying like, hey, you guys, you need to like
reel it in because this girl, this young woman has
been chramatically affected by all of this hate that she's
(36:50):
put herself in a mental health facility and it's like
an actual facility, and now you're saying that it's not.
It's just like a spaw vacation that she's on to
like implement more of that hatred. And you know, and
I think the goal to production wise, their strategy is
(37:10):
to share all of the different stories, right for the
most part, because different people will connect to different characters
on the show, and then that gets more people to
comment and defend their side and what they believe. And
the more commentary, the better the ratings and the higher
(37:34):
crisis that they can sell advertisement space for.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
And it's all that's the whole game.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
Like the documentary where they were talking about the negative
comments creates more dopamine than the positive scaleponent, right, so
then everybody goes down that rabbit hole. That's exactly what
you're referring to.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, that documentary is called fifteen Minutes of Shame and
it's directed by Monich Klewinski.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
You guys should definitely check it out.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
You know what you mentioned about them trying to warp
the narrative around where you went like a spa. That's
again another example of them trying to own your story,
your life story. They're trying to own that. Why because
if you really do you know you did, but like
if they admit that you checked into a legitimate like
mental health retreat where you like turned off your phone
(38:24):
and it was like super serious, that looks really really
bad for them, right, really bad. And not only that,
if they can spin it as you going to this
like oh this hooty tooty spa thing, right, I'm just
getting manicures and stuff and we're calling you mental health
but it's really not whatever, if they can spin it
like that, that also like fuels the narrative they're trying
to create for you, like spoiled, out of touch, like
(38:48):
all these things, right, And again that's that's another one
of the problems they even they're even bringing in stuff
that they should have no control to try to warp
and change how you're perceived. And if they really cared
about if they really cared about cast mental health, they
wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
And that is it. That is it.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
That is the thing, because if they did support me
and the way that every single human being deserves to
be supportive. Maybe there would have been a world where
I would have gone back to the show. Maybe I
would have felt supported enough to go back and been like, Hey,
this is my story. I can own that, and I
want to share that with other people, because I truly
(39:28):
do believe that representing that peace and like being the
other woman is a shameful.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Thing, but it's a thing that happens.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
And if you can own that and share that and
like and be that for somebody else to relate to
on their television screen, that's everything that I want. But
I didn't feel supported in the way that I deserve
to be supported. And there is no way in how
(40:01):
I was going to go back to that knowing that
they don't care.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
No, no. And actually, to take that a step further,
we presented them with an opportunity to look to look
like the leaders in mental health for when Rachel came out,
to be able to shed light on the stigmatization of
mental health and treatment for mental health, and we wanted
to be able to share that journey with the network,
(40:28):
and they would have looked like heroes be in the
forefront of that. And and I honest thickness. Don't think
it would have impacted what they did the next day
going back to film, but they still would have had
really positive you know, if they weren't interested in that,
because that's what money is, I guess.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
And Rachel, what I've always admired about you and the
conversations you're having is you've you've owned up to the mistakes, right,
Like it's not like you're trying to say, oh, I
didn't do anything wrong, like you're You're human. We all
make mistakes, right, and you're taking responsibility for that. And
I think that that just adds to the credibility of
your message, right. You're not trying to run or hide
(41:04):
from things. What you're trying to do is you're trying
to present them in an empathetic light, in a realistic light,
and in a way that can help people going forward.
And I think that, you know, it's so frustrating that
the network didn't want to partner with you in doing that,
because Juliette, to your point, like the one one of
the messages I keep trying to convey as as you know,
(41:25):
as overtly as possible whenever I get the platform, is
this change is coming, right, this is this is a
disruption in the industry. It's not going to stop. It
might take a while, but it's not going to stop.
And if you you know, if you look at the
history of disruptions and successes and who survives disruptions and
(41:46):
who doesn't, it's the companies that embrace the disruption and
beside to become part of the conversation and have like,
have a have a partnership in helping to frame and
create the next stage. Right, if you look at Harvard
Business Review, like hundreds of Harvard Business Review cases over
decades are littered with situations where an industry fought disruption
(42:09):
and they died. Right, So, like, I would love it
if one of these studios, one of these companies reached
out to us and say, hey, we know we need
to change. We would like to work with you and
partner with you in bringing about that change, because it's
you know you can. Is never about opposition. The fastest
way to change is to partner with the industry. I
(42:30):
would love nothing more than for one of these people
to say, hey, we would love to partner with you
can to make this a better industry. Right, that would
be a dream come true.
Speaker 4 (42:38):
So on that note, which was very positive. Jeremy, I
think you have some other positive news to share with Rachel.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Yeah, we've been talking about this for a while, Rachel.
When I think again, you know, I've admired your message
and your platform ever since you started talking about it.
But we would love it if you would partner with
you CAN and bring you Can's message to your platform
and really just share the spirit of trying to get
CAST members just the basic of human rights represented, like
(43:08):
mental health, all these things. Right, we're align in this
mission and I would love it so much if you
would join you CAN as a CAST ambassador.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
I would be honored too.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, that is awesome, And I want to ask for
cast members, future cast members, past cast members that are
listening and want to reach out and get help, like
how do they go about contacting the u CAN Foundation
and what can they expect resource wise?
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yeah, that's a great question. So you can dm us
on our Instagram the Underscore you can Underscore Foundation if
you just type it in your fine so you can
dm us there. You can email me directly. My email
is Jeremy at Ucnfoundation dot org. You can go to
our website you Canfoundation dot Org submit a form there.
(43:59):
But the bottom line is like, we want to help you,
We want to reach out to you, we want to
talk to you. I will personally talk to you. Just
reach out to us in want of these channels and
you get a conversation with me. Hopefully Rachel, you'll be
involved in some of these as well. And again, we
have partners in the mental health space, we have partners
in the legal space. So if you have issues, if
(44:20):
you have something that you're not quite sure how to resolve,
we can help you with that. And the other thing
we're doing is we're on the very front end of this,
but we're trying to build an entire we'll call it
a curriculum. Right, So, like, how do you succeed in
reality TV from cradle to grave from the moment you
think you want to be on reality TV to you've
finished filming and you want to brand yourself, you want
(44:42):
to be social media successful? Like, what are the lessons?
What are the things that we can give you to
empower you to do that while also protecting your legal
rights and protect giving you the information you need to
leave it in a in the best mental state that
you can. Right. So, again we're a brand new nonprofit.
It's been just a bit over a year. We're still
trying to find our footing. But again, we just want
(45:04):
to build this community. And I would love it if
you're a cast member, If you're thinking about becoming a
cast member, talk to us.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
And like you said, change is coming and people are
talking about mental health and it's so refreshing to know
that people care about this, and like in the entertainment
industry especially, and people even watch old shows like America's
Next Top Model and Jersey Shore and they're just like
pulled on some of the things that.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Were normalized back then.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
So yeah, we have shifted as a society and a culture,
and or I should say we have shifted as a
society and the mental health culture has become more in
the forefront. So it's only a matter of time before
we will see some sort of change. But it's incredible
(45:59):
having the UK Foundation be in the forefront of that
for unscripted TV. And when I was in the meadows
dealing with all of this stuff and really like reconnecting
with myself and praying for my future, I came out
of the meadows and one of my friends that I
(46:20):
met in there sent me a clip It was Nick
Thompson talking about his experience, and there was like a
clip of you, Jeremy speaking on the situation and this
UCAM foundation, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like this didn't.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Exist before I went into the meadows, Like this.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Is so cool that it's very much in alignment with
the times. And I'm just very grateful to have been
able to connect with you guys and to have been
able to get the resources that I needed to speak
freely about my experience, because if I didn't have that,
(47:05):
my life could have looked completely different. And I just
feel like having a voice is so important and it's
something that I've worked my whole life to find. So
I thank you guys for helping me be able to
speak on my experience.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Absolutely, and I'm so grateful that you're part of you CAN.
I think we're so mission aligned and that I was
that hit home so much when I was out in
California and we were just chatting and talking. I think
we're of this mind that just because we went through
an experience doesn't mean other people should like we can.
Our bad experience can be leveraged to make the world
(47:49):
a better place and ultimately that's what we're trying to
do here.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Well, thank you Jeremy, thank you guys for listening and
tuning in, and I hope you learned something new today
or maybe your perspective has shifted a little bit, or
if you need some resources, hopefully we helped you out
and could direct you.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Into place that it's useful for you.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Thanks Staring Me, Thanks Rachel.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel gos Rogue.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Follow us on
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content at Rachel gos
Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome back to another episode
of Rachel Goes Rogue. This is your host, Rachel Savannah Levis,
and I'm very excited to bring on a guest today
who is really making waves in this reality TV realm
(00:27):
and bringing awareness to the issues that are obvious to
all of us.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
At this point.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Mental health has been something that hasn't really been discussed
with reality TV, and now it's actually in the forefront
of everyone's minds and we're all aware of the problem.
Now we have somebody who is working on the solution.
So I'm very excited to bring on my friend Jeremy
(00:58):
who created the ut Camp Foundation. The UCAM Foundation is
a nonprofit organization dedicated to advocating for the mental health
and legal needs of unscripted reality TV cast members. You
Can was founded by two alumni, Jeremy Hartwell and Nick
Thompson of Netflix popular series Love Is Blind, along with
(01:22):
clinical psychologists and couples therapist doctor Isabelle Morley. Jeremy is
an executive director, and the UCAM Foundation have successfully helped
hundreds of cast members, added dozens of verified therapists and
attorneys to its network, and has opened the dialogue on
the need for protections for vulnerable cast members who often
(01:46):
find themselves exploited for ratings. Today, we're doing something a
little bit different since Jeremy is obviously full of knowledge
and experiences in this world, and I obviously am the
host of this podcast, but my producers are here as
(02:08):
well to ask questions, and I want to get in
on this dialogue too, because we both have experienced a
lot when it has come to reality TV and how
it has impacted our lives and our thoughts and feelings
on it all. So I'm having my producers here and
(02:29):
we're gonna bring in Jeremy. Welcome, Jeremy Heartwell, I'm very
happy to have you here.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It's good to see you again.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, good to see you too.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
The last time I spoke to Jeremy was that the
Hollywood and Mind Summit in Los Angeles, and it was
very refreshing to see so many people advocating for the
rights of past members and there was still the need
for that discussion to be had around reality TV stars,
(03:01):
but I felt like Jeremy and I were there to
kind of be that representation and get more knowledge on
it and see where we can implement what they were
talking about in the entertainment industry and how to apply
that into this issue that we're seeing with reality TV stars.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Yeah, I think you guys were definitely popular there. They
were very interested in you, both in your stories and
your perspectives, and that's kind of why we want to
have this conversation today. So I'm going to ask some
questions and you're going to start out sort of being
targeted towards you, Jeremy, and I want more of a
conversation between the two of you. Rachel already did a
brilliant introduction on what you Can is, but I'd like
(03:45):
to hear from you in your short form what is
you Can?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah, and first of all, thanks so much for having
me on the show here. I'm really excited to talk
to both of you. You Can is a nonprofit that
I found it as at its highest lene. It's a
cast advocacy group, and I started it basically because when
I came out of filming, it was really hard for
me to find any support, both from a mental health
and a legal perspective, but also just cast community. Obviously,
(04:14):
I knew the cast members from my season and it
was great talking to them but there's literally tens of
thousands of reality TV cast members across the past couple
of decades, and the ability to reach out to them,
to talk to them, to discuss, to share things just
wasn't there. So I wanted to start something that really
brought people together and gave them the resources they needed
(04:37):
to not just like get back to baseline from before
the shows, but to actually succeed in prive.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
That's sounds great, And about how many people have you
sort of worked with and helped today?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, that's a really good question. We've talked to between
myself and Nick Thompson, who's the other co founder. He
was a cast member on my as well, probably a
lot well more known than I am. But we've talked
to probably over two hundred cast members at this point,
and a lot of them are just looking for a community,
right They're looking for someone to share their story. I
had a cast member from a it was a you know,
(05:14):
one of those business entrepreneurship shows that were more popular,
you know, a couple of years ago to a decade ago.
He had not told people a certain story, a traumatic event,
for ten years. I was the first person he opened
up to because he felt that no one else could understand,
and he was so grateful just to be able to
share his story with somebody who could empathize. There wasn't
(05:35):
really anything else beyond that, and I think that's a
lot of what we're seeing is people just want to talk,
they want to share, they want that community. But more importantly,
we are also succeeding in the areas where we want
to talk. We want to link CAST members up with
the mental health and legal resources that they need, not
just want, but need, and we've added well over one
(05:56):
hundred therapists to our network. We interview them, we bring
them on board, we make sure that they're qualified to
talk to CAST members, and we've also partnered with some
very prominent attorneys, and to date we've helped several people
basically defend themselves from unfair allegations or lawsuits by an
industry that's trying to keep everybody quiet because they don't
(06:20):
want the dirty laundry air. When people speak up and
talk about these things, they get sued. And even if
there's no basis for the lawsuit, you still have to
pay a lawyer to defend yourself, right, And so the
tactic there generally is to just keep people quiet because
they don't have the means to defend themselves, so they'll
just stop talking.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Jeremy, let's talk about that. I'm gonna interrupt. But reality
has been around for a while.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Now.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Why is that suddenly this is happening and there's a
need for organizations like you can't? Why now?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, that's a great question, and I think you have
to look at other areas in the industry or other
issues that have come up that have for decades, and
it takes a long time for some of these things
to come to the forefront. Right, And I'm not equating
this to the me Too movement, but it's similar in
that regards. Right, that abuse, that victimization had been going
(07:13):
on for decades. Right, just because it didn't come to
the forefront until recently, doesn't mean it wasn't an issue
for decades. And it's a similar thing here. Part of
the reason is you have these very heavy handed arbitration
clauses in these contracts, and you have aggressive and assertive
and powerful, well funded production companies who they use these
(07:35):
arbitration agreements to essentially keep any dispute private. So what
an arbitration clause is basically if you have an issue
with the production company or if you have an issue
with something in the contract. Basically what it says is
you're not allowed to file a public dispute. You have
to bring it up privately, and we're going to tell
you who the arbiters are going to be, and they're
(07:55):
going to be the ones making the decision. Whatever the
decision is, whether we have to pay you money as
damages or whether nothing comes of it. It remains sealed
so it never gets out in the public. And I
think if you look back, you can see like little
drips of this over decades, right, You'll see a little
story here or there about something coming out, but you
never get the details because it's always been handled in arbitration.
(08:17):
And that's one of the things we're trying to change.
And that's one of the things we're working to change,
is to try to find a way to get these
out of arbitration, to get cash members empowered to speak
their truth and own their narrative.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Would you say, and actually, Rachel, you can speak to
this too, because I think this has affected you as well.
Is that to what you were just mentioning? The idea
is that they're using their power. They're using their money,
they're using their expertise against people they hope have none
of that right, and so the power dynamic is obviously
is obviously skewed. And I feel it's that they are
(08:53):
counting on the fact that you don't know the laws,
and Rachel, you had experience in that area.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, but I feel like there's laws protecting people from
being able to speak out about abusive situations in the workplace,
and it just seems like they're really trying to pull
a fast one on a lot of people who don't
have the resources to defend themselves, and they're doing it
(09:22):
as a way. It's a scare tactic to prevent other
people from speaking out. Like I've spoken to multiple people
who have experienced stuff and they're too scared to say
anything about it, And I wish I could have them
on my podcast, and maybe one day I will, But
it's very unfortunate that people are afraid to speak out
(09:47):
about it.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
So this is actually to both of you, what do
you say, because we hear this a lot. I know
Rich you've heard a lot. I'm sure Jeremy you hear
it on a day to day basis. Oh, poor reality
stars they signed up to be on this show. They
know what they were signing up for. Why do they
need help or why should we feel sorry for them?
How would you guys answer that?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
I guess like I'll, I do get this a lot.
And I you know, on the one hand, I understand
that perspective. As a viewer, you only see this tiny
glimpse of what's happening. And not only that, the information
that you have about the process, right, anything outside of
the show, most of that is propaganda that's been fed
to you by these production companies so that they can
(10:31):
keep their image and they can keep their squeaky clean,
and they can shift the blame and blame the victims. Right.
So like I empathize and I understand what that perspective.
I think there's no reason why most people would have
a different perspective. But that's why you can is so important.
That's why this conversation is so important. We've there is
not a single cast member I have talked to that
(10:53):
said they were they like everything they were told, everything
in the contract matched their experience. The mismat is massive, right,
What they tell you, what you sign up for, what
you read in the contract is not even close to
indicative of what actually happens. And that's one of the
issues right there, is if you're not getting this full disclosure,
(11:14):
you do you literally right, and I mean I mean
that in the proper sense. You literally do not know
what you're signing up for. But you also have no
way of finding out because they have these very strong
non disclosure agreements, so you can't even find out from
somebody else. And you know, I think the other aspect
of that is to viewers, it's one it's time to
(11:37):
believe the victims. All the cast members that are speaking up,
they're all saying the exact same thing.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, And in your case, it's a little bit different
than my situation with vander Pump rules. When people here like, oh,
cast members need more rights or there needs to be changed,
they become afraid that people like you want to take
down Reality TV and to like completely change it and
(12:04):
it won't be entertaining anymore. What do you have to
say to somebody that has that belief?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think, first
of all, to put any fears to rest, we're not
trying to kill reality TV. I think you know, it's
a it's obviously a popular form of entertainment, and you know,
I don't personally blame anybody for enjoying reality TV. It's
something that a lot of people like, and it adds
positive value to people's lives to watch it. So, but
(12:31):
I think it's important to understand we're not asking for
anything special. We're not we're not trying to demand that
cast members get something special. We're asking for basic human rights.
And like, I pause there because it's so critical and
it's so important. So as a viewer, you have a
day job, right, You're allowed to go to the bathroom
(12:54):
when you want to. You can take a break, you
can go for a walk outside if you need a
little bit of sunlight. Right you You're allowed to go
home and get eight hours of sleep. These are basic
human We're allowed to eat when you want. These are
basic human rights. And it's a lot of things that
are that cast members are systemically deprived of across all
(13:17):
shows and all genres, and like even on like a
vander Pump Rules, it's still it's a lesser degree, but
there's still a lot of things that are taken away
from you. You know, from our conversations and from what
you've told me it's similar in that regard. And again,
the important thing to keep in mind for viewers is
we're all we're asking for is that production companies treat
(13:39):
cast members like people. That's that's literally it. It's it
doesn't seem like it should be a very high bar.
And I think if any if anybody understands that and
doesn't think that that should be the case or is
offended by that, I quite honestly don't want you in
our corner.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
But let's talk about that for a minute, because that's
a really good point. Do you see the and this
is to both of you, the climate changing of the viewer,
because I feel like you see so much. What used
to be really voyeuristic we would watch and it would
be a guilty pleasure is now participatory. And I think Rachel,
you've said on past podcasts that what the fans are
(14:27):
seeing and their emotions and the anger that is, you know,
sort of drawn, you know, stirred up. Do you feel
that's impacting the end result and maybe why people aren't
feeling sorry or not that's not necessarily the right word,
but feeling compassion towards those that are going through it.
Do you think the climate has changed for the viewer
(14:50):
towards reality.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, and I want to.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Back up just a little bit to what Jeremy was saying,
and we can.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Tie this in production.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Reading cast members as humans is not that big of
an ask. And I feel like, personally, I have felt
like production has treated me as a human and encouraged
me to speak out and share my side of the
story whatever that may be a little manipulative at times,
but still treating me like a human. The part where
(15:23):
I have an issue in my experience from how this
scandal rocked the nation.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
It was like I was no.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Longer a human in their eyes, the way that they
allowed people to speak about me, and I pushed further
these lies to excel this narrative that suited them, and
I felt like I was ejectified, and that was I
was no longer a human and they weren't seeing me
(15:57):
as like, oh, there's a an actual person on the
receiving end of all of this hate. Totally, it was
just like a means to an end to get ratings.
All they could see was dollar signs and it was
like that personally, I feel like it was that greed
that was the motivator in the drive and it took
(16:18):
priority over all else and so that's where it hurts.
That hurts me because I became a character and not
a human being.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Good point well, and actually too too. The other one
of the other points that Jerry made about believing the victim,
It wasn't until Rachel came out with her scenario as
the result of what she just described and got treatment
for mental health issues and anxieties, et cetera, that then
the network came out and sort of put disclaimers saying
(16:51):
that they had mental health efficause they didn't have that
for you. Correct, Rachel, No, they did it.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
They did not.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
And now then, funnily enough, this season really focus a
lot on everybody's mental health and that was all as
a result of your noise, your conversations.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Well, yeah, it's especially frustrating when we see Tom Sandoval
get these this like special treatment for expressing that he
has dark thoughts, and none of that was extended in
the same regard towards me. In fact, you know, production
was willing to go the extra mile and get my
(17:29):
dog involved when that did not need to happen. And
it's just like very gut wrenching and disgusting to think about,
and the disclaimers that we see feel like we should
also disclaim the abuse that you see between cast members
on the show and the unhealthy relationship dynamics because all
(17:52):
of that is being normalized on reality TV too. And Jeremy,
I mean, what is your stance on that. Do we
want to see this change in reality TV? Or is
it more so the production to the cast relationship.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I'm gonna
I'm going to back up a little bit first and
just add some context that I think it's so important
for viewers to understand that while reality TV or a
better term is unscripted, right, While unscripted right, nobody's memorizing
a script, it's still produced. And that's really really important
(18:32):
for people to understand, right, because when they're watching you
on the screen, or they're watching anybody on the screen,
not only are viewers only seeing a tiny sliver of
what's happening, they're seeing the angle that the producers want
them to see, right. And you know, it could also
and that's that's the best case scenario. It could even
(18:53):
get so bad that you're just totally misrepresented in a
way that never happened. And a really good example is,
I mean, everybody listening to this has probably hopefully laughed
at one point today, right. So imagine if you're on
a reality TV show and you have cameras in front
of you for anywhere from like eight to fifteen hours
(19:14):
a day, they're going to capture you laughing. Right. All
they have to do is take another clip of let's say,
an off color joke or something like something, an offensive joke, right,
and then cut to you laughing at that joke, right.
And that laugh could have happened three days beforehand, or
maybe three days after, it doesn't matter. They stitch that together.
They make it seem like you're laughing at that joke,
(19:36):
and now all of a sudden, you are that person,
even though that event never actually happened. And the really
insidious thing is, and this is again, I've read a
bunch of contracts from a bunch of different shows, in
a bunch of different genres, and they all basically say
the same thing is, we're allowed to say production, right.
We production are allowed to say anything we want. We're
(19:58):
allowed to defame you. It says that in a lot
of these contracts, and you cannot say anything to the contrary.
You're not allowed to defend yourself, you're not allowed to
clear the air, you're not allowed to tell your truth,
and if you do, we're going to sue you. And
that really irks me because it's if you own anything
in this life, it's your own narrative, like it's your
(20:21):
own life, it's your own journey. The fact that they're
taking that away from us and taking it away from people,
it should infuriorate people. And the fact that they threaten
people with lawsuits if they do try to take that back.
So I think it circles back to this notion that
how you're portrayed is a produced effort that can go
(20:42):
anywhere from like adhering somewhat close to reality to being
a totally contrived situation that didn't happen. And viewers have
to also understand the cast is not allowed to speak
to say the truth, They're not allowed to go against
the story in the narrative, or they're going to get sued.
And that's where the fear. And so I think disclaimers
(21:02):
can go a long way. And we have these disclaimers around,
you know, like based on a true story, you have
a disclaimer like, hey this you know, this is based
on actual events but has been dramatized for entertainment purposes. Right,
Why can't we put something like that on top of it?
And why aren't we allowing cast members to say, Hey,
(21:23):
this is what they showed for entertainment, but let me
tell you what actually happened. Right? We allow scripted actors
to do that. Right. You have all sorts of actors
playing villains, right, really bad characters. Imagine if that industry
forced them to take on that character as their entire
life now right now they're a villain, Right, that's ridiculous.
(21:46):
The fact that this industry is not allowing that same thing.
I don't see how it takes away from the entertainment value.
I don't see how it takes away from profitability. All
it does is add some humanity in, some compassion and
some empathy to it. Right, Why can't we do that?
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yeah? Well, I was actually going to ask the question
about something that anybody that was ever considering being on
a reality show, that you might warn them, But you
hit on a lot. But I'd like to ask you
each to give me one thing that you would use
as a warning to somebody or something they should know
about if they were considering going on a reality TV show.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
It's risky. Really look at the risk versus reward. I
think if you have a game plan going on a
reality TV show and you're using it as a means
to an end to launch some sort of business and
know exactly who you are and what boundaries you have
in place for yourself, and you're okay with people misunderstanding you,
(22:45):
and you also are okay with the risk that you
may be the villain, then go for it because it's
a means to an end. And if you're strong enough
to do that, just you know, like what, you would
have to have thick skin and kind of.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Know what you're getting yourself into. But if that's not
the case, it's difficult because.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You know, I went into this like not having a
brand or a business or a vision for anything like that.
And I feel like a lot of people who do
join reality shows like vander Pump Rules anyway, have that
type of business mindset, and they are seeing it as
(23:30):
a way to propel themselves into fame and to use
fame as a resource for me. I just thought it
would be a good opportunity to step outside of my
comfort zone and develop my making skills and overcome social
anxiety and have a little fun and get paid for
(23:50):
living my life. And I truly thought it was real,
and through time I've experienced different types of things that
show that it's not quite that. It also puts you
in a vulnerable position. With a show like Real Housewives
or vander Pump Rules, with recurring cast, you're creating relationships
(24:16):
with these people and your life becomes completely enmeshed with
the storylines and what is happening and being presented to
the rest of the world. So it's very confusing, and
it allows for yourself to be more vulnerable to manipulation.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And that is producer's middle name.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
You know what that just made me think of and
tied with what you just said, Rachel, and with Jeremy
alluded to a little bit earlier. The rest of the
world look at athletics, look at I nil deals, name, image, likeness,
They're giving them back to the athletes, right, So all
the big organizations are giving the power to the athletes.
This is one of those industries that's still holding. Like
(25:04):
to your point, they own it and Rachel, you and
I have a well all of us have a mutual
reality star friend who was talking about she'd been off
the shows for like ten years and she went to
Australia and her face was on the billboards. Like, when
you sign those agreements, they're owning that. And to your point,
jarm me, your life and your journey should be the
one thing you are guaranteed to own. But once you
(25:25):
sign those contracts, you don't have that anymore.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, it's and again, whether that's legal or not is not.
You know, a conversation I can have, but I don't
think it's ethical. I don't think it's right. And you know,
to answer your question, you know, I have a caution
and then advice for anyone considering reality TV. And this
spins off of what Rachel was saying is producers are
(25:49):
not your friend. They they are there because you fit
a certain character, archetype, and a storyline, and they're there
to produce your storyline. Their motivation is ratings and profit. Right,
they it might work out that they can be totally
friendly and nice to you while that happens, right, that
could be a happy coincidence, But the bottom line is
(26:11):
they are not your friend. And what makes that even
worse is they their job is to make it seem
like they're your best friend. So you tell them all
their secrets so they know all of your buttons and
so that they can have the easiest job that they
have to push you in the storyline in the direction
that they want you to go. Right. So my caution is, like,
(26:32):
never confuse the friendliness of a producer with actual friendship.
Understand the dynamics, Understand their incentives. And I'm not saying
they're bad people, right, you know, there probably are some
bad producers, but really they're operating within a system that
incentivizes them in a certain way. And so understand the incentives.
Understand that they're not incentivized to be your friend. They're
(26:53):
incentivized to produce you based upon a storyline that was
often predetermined for you. And so that's an important caution,
and you know, to sort of give you the flip
side of that coin, my advice would be find other
cast members to reach out to, ideally like on a
previous season from the same show, or really any cast
(27:14):
member from any show is going to be able to
give you good advice. And that's again, that's one of
the reasons that you can't exist is we're trying to
facilitate that communication.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
So this I have a question for both of you.
Has your personal experience tainted the way that you watch
reality TV as a whole? And can you even or
do you even watch any reality TV?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I watch Love on the Spectrum, and I like that
show because I don't know, it's just very sweet and innocent,
and it just seems like, you know, these people who
are on the autism spectrum are navigating a dating world
and you wouldn't really experience that unless you have like
(28:00):
a sibling or a family member who you can kind
of like know that type of information. But I just
find it very endearing. But to answer your question, no,
I don't love watching reality TV shows. I did watch
during the pandemic, and I guess when people are talking
about a reality TV show so much, it's.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Kind of like this is what everyone's talking about.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Like I need to be in the know so I
know what these conversations are so I could see how
like everyone got on the bandwagon on watching vander pump
Rolls that season ten. But yeah, it definitely has tainted
the way I view reality TV. I can normally tell
(28:44):
with the audio if something had been inserted as a
wildline into a scene, and I question, like, oh, did
that person really make that facial movement when they're showing that,
Like I question everything, and so I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I just don't see it as real.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
So it's I take everything with a grain of salt
when I watch that, and I hardly watch it because
that makes sense. A lot of them are toxic too,
Like I'm watching I'm watching The Valley just so I
can be in the know with that, and I have
a friend on there, and it's a lot, it's it's heavy,
(29:25):
and I don't know if I want to spend my
time consuming that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yeah, it's so interesting what you're talking about with like
trying to pick out the different scenes of like was
that played fuller? And the scene after? Like what about
that glass of water? Like is that higher now? Like
I think to a lot of people that might sound
like paranoia, but to people who have gone through that experience,
it's not. It's the truth. Like, so you start to
(29:53):
become really sensitive to finding those things. And at this
really interesting point me personally, I didn't really watch reality
TV before. It's changed my perception quite a bit. Obviously
in terms of like how it's produced, the ethical implications
of it. So I don't really watch it much either. Again,
(30:14):
it's not really a difference or a change from prior
to show. I think it's just my understanding of how
it's produced has changed my perspective on like reality TV
in general. And again, you know, going back to what
you said about watching Love on the Spectrum, Rachel, I
think it's I you know, you clearly it's an enjoyable show,
(30:35):
Like there's some purity and some innocence there, right, And
again I think back to one of the first points.
We're not trying to get rid of reality TV. There's
there's good entertainment, there's good shows out there. But imagine
if you can watch these shows and just feel confident
knowing they were produced ethically and the cast we're taking
care of. You can't right now, that's the problem. Imagine
(30:58):
if you could watch one of these shows, any of
these shows, and know for a fact, hey, like I'm
just watching the on screen drama, Like people are going
to be people. You don't. You don't need to deprive
them of sleep for them to get dramatic. You don't.
You don't need to create fake scenarios with frank and
biting and you know, cuts from different days in a
single conversation to create the drama. People aren't freaking dramatic, Like,
(31:23):
let that drama shine through.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Human behavior is the part that is so fascinating with
unscripted TV. It's like we're getting a peek into someone
else's life that lives completely different than maybe we do,
and we're like, oh, I wonder what it's like to
walk in their shoes, and it's just interesting people living
and it doesn't need to be something so like more
(31:51):
than that and twisted and so manipulative, and it messes
with your mind. I swear like every single cast member
on vanderpump Rule has been. There's a little bit of
a screw loose for all of us because when you're
on a recurring cast, you start to have this feeling like, Okay,
(32:13):
I'm not in control of my own narrative, So what
am I going to do to take back some of
my control? You start self producing and then that's also
when fans are reacting now to like why are the
cast self producing?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
This is not like what we want to see.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
It's not authentic, and it's it's hard though, because it's
like you self produce because you want to take back
your control on your own image and your narrative, and
it's just this loop cycle.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
So recently a network came out speaking to the fans,
actually reminding them that the contestants or the reality stars
are having an experience and to be kind, do you
think that's a tiny hint of change on behalf of
(33:20):
the networks towards the scenario or what do you think
about that?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I think it's a signal that the narrative is changing, right,
because it's a reaction. They didn't do this on their own,
like that that's the first kind of flag that we
should look at. It took pressure for them to do
something that should have been happening all along, right, But
I personally worry about, you know, corporate whitewashing, which is
where you create an image of change or an image
(33:46):
of improvement to satisfy the outcry without actually doing anything
about it. And like, I don't know this particular studio
that put out the statement, but I you know, it's
very possible and very likely that this same studio, their
social media team is actively promoting the events, the narrative,
the structures, the vitriol against cast members, right, So it
(34:11):
really seems like that's kind of you know, it's it's
disingenuous because on the one hand they're saying, oh, please
be kind, but on the other hand, they're like, oh, well,
this person is the villain, you should hate them, right,
And that's a bit of an exaggeration. But these these
social these massive social media teams do fuel that, and
until they stop fueling that, that's not real change. You're
(34:33):
just covering it up. And I think the second point
I want to make is you can't let them police themselves.
And again, it all comes down to incentives. And we're
capitalist society. If we want to talk about late stage capitalism,
that's a whole different podcast. But the point is the
only incentive right now is profit maximization, in maximizing shareholder value.
(34:57):
There's a law in the books that says you have
to maximize sharehold their value. Right. You can literally go
to jail if you don't in extreme cases. So, like,
you have to look at the incentives and you have
to realize that under this system, under these incentives, the
companies policing themselves like this, it doesn't work because there's
no incentive to actually enforce it. So what we need
(35:17):
is we need a third party who is not affiliated,
it's not paid for by the company, to ensure that
these things are actually happening and these changes are actually
being made. We I would you know, I would caution,
and I would ask everybody to question any sort of
change that is self policing.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
That's a really good point, Rachel. I would think that
that really resonates with you too, because you know, in
your show, everybody on that show had affairs and had whatevers,
and none of it got to the point that your
situation did. And once the genie was out of the bottle,
so to speak, the pot was stirred through the social
(36:01):
media banter in the direction on the media. Would you
agree with that, Rachel.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, I mean, as Jeremy was speaking, it kind of
flashed me back to last summer when Lisa supposedly went
on Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen and was
telling people that remember, these are people, these are real
lives that we're talking about. And it was major, major
(36:30):
damage control because my publicist was in contact with them
specifically saying like, hey, you guys, you need to like
reel it in because this girl, this young woman has
been chramatically affected by all of this hate that she's
(36:50):
put herself in a mental health facility and it's like
an actual facility, and now you're saying that it's not.
It's just like a spaw vacation that she's on to
like implement more of that hatred. And you know, and
I think the goal to production wise, their strategy is
(37:10):
to share all of the different stories, right for the
most part, because different people will connect to different characters
on the show, and then that gets more people to
comment and defend their side and what they believe. And
the more commentary, the better the ratings and the higher
(37:34):
crisis that they can sell advertisement space for.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
And it's all that's the whole game.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
Like the documentary where they were talking about the negative
comments creates more dopamine than the positive scaleponent, right, so
then everybody goes down that rabbit hole. That's exactly what
you're referring to.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, that documentary is called fifteen Minutes of Shame and
it's directed by Monich Klewinski.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
You guys should definitely check it out.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
You know what you mentioned about them trying to warp
the narrative around where you went like a spa. That's
again another example of them trying to own your story,
your life story. They're trying to own that. Why because
if you really do you know you did, but like
if they admit that you checked into a legitimate like
mental health retreat where you like turned off your phone
(38:24):
and it was like super serious, that looks really really
bad for them, right, really bad. And not only that,
if they can spin it as you going to this
like oh this hooty tooty spa thing, right, I'm just
getting manicures and stuff and we're calling you mental health
but it's really not whatever, if they can spin it
like that, that also like fuels the narrative they're trying
to create for you, like spoiled, out of touch, like
(38:48):
all these things, right, And again that's that's another one
of the problems they even they're even bringing in stuff
that they should have no control to try to warp
and change how you're perceived. And if they really cared
about if they really cared about cast mental health, they
wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
And that is it. That is it.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
That is the thing, because if they did support me
and the way that every single human being deserves to
be supportive. Maybe there would have been a world where
I would have gone back to the show. Maybe I
would have felt supported enough to go back and been like, Hey,
this is my story. I can own that, and I
want to share that with other people, because I truly
(39:28):
do believe that representing that peace and like being the
other woman is a shameful.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Thing, but it's a thing that happens.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
And if you can own that and share that and
like and be that for somebody else to relate to
on their television screen, that's everything that I want. But
I didn't feel supported in the way that I deserve
to be supported. And there is no way in how
(40:01):
I was going to go back to that knowing that
they don't care.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
No, no. And actually, to take that a step further,
we presented them with an opportunity to look to look
like the leaders in mental health for when Rachel came out,
to be able to shed light on the stigmatization of
mental health and treatment for mental health, and we wanted
to be able to share that journey with the network,
(40:28):
and they would have looked like heroes be in the
forefront of that. And and I honest thickness. Don't think
it would have impacted what they did the next day
going back to film, but they still would have had
really positive you know, if they weren't interested in that,
because that's what money is, I guess.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
And Rachel, what I've always admired about you and the
conversations you're having is you've you've owned up to the mistakes, right,
Like it's not like you're trying to say, oh, I
didn't do anything wrong, like you're You're human. We all
make mistakes, right, and you're taking responsibility for that. And
I think that that just adds to the credibility of
your message, right. You're not trying to run or hide
(41:04):
from things. What you're trying to do is you're trying
to present them in an empathetic light, in a realistic light,
and in a way that can help people going forward.
And I think that, you know, it's so frustrating that
the network didn't want to partner with you in doing that,
because Juliette, to your point, like the one one of
the messages I keep trying to convey as as you know,
(41:25):
as overtly as possible whenever I get the platform, is
this change is coming, right, this is this is a
disruption in the industry. It's not going to stop. It
might take a while, but it's not going to stop.
And if you you know, if you look at the
history of disruptions and successes and who survives disruptions and
(41:46):
who doesn't, it's the companies that embrace the disruption and
beside to become part of the conversation and have like,
have a have a partnership in helping to frame and
create the next stage. Right, if you look at Harvard
Business Review, like hundreds of Harvard Business Review cases over
decades are littered with situations where an industry fought disruption
(42:09):
and they died. Right, So, like, I would love it
if one of these studios, one of these companies reached
out to us and say, hey, we know we need
to change. We would like to work with you and
partner with you in bringing about that change, because it's
you know you can. Is never about opposition. The fastest
way to change is to partner with the industry. I
(42:30):
would love nothing more than for one of these people
to say, hey, we would love to partner with you
can to make this a better industry. Right, that would
be a dream come true.
Speaker 4 (42:38):
So on that note, which was very positive. Jeremy, I
think you have some other positive news to share with Rachel.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Yeah, we've been talking about this for a while, Rachel.
When I think again, you know, I've admired your message
and your platform ever since you started talking about it.
But we would love it if you would partner with
you CAN and bring you Can's message to your platform
and really just share the spirit of trying to get
CAST members just the basic of human rights represented, like
(43:08):
mental health, all these things. Right, we're align in this
mission and I would love it so much if you
would join you CAN as a CAST ambassador.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
I would be honored too.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, that is awesome, And I want to ask for
cast members, future cast members, past cast members that are
listening and want to reach out and get help, like
how do they go about contacting the u CAN Foundation
and what can they expect resource wise?
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yeah, that's a great question. So you can dm us
on our Instagram the Underscore you can Underscore Foundation if
you just type it in your fine so you can
dm us there. You can email me directly. My email
is Jeremy at Ucnfoundation dot org. You can go to
our website you Canfoundation dot Org submit a form there.
(43:59):
But the bottom line is like, we want to help you,
We want to reach out to you, we want to
talk to you. I will personally talk to you. Just
reach out to us in want of these channels and
you get a conversation with me. Hopefully Rachel, you'll be
involved in some of these as well. And again, we
have partners in the mental health space, we have partners
in the legal space. So if you have issues, if
(44:20):
you have something that you're not quite sure how to resolve,
we can help you with that. And the other thing
we're doing is we're on the very front end of this,
but we're trying to build an entire we'll call it
a curriculum. Right, So, like, how do you succeed in
reality TV from cradle to grave from the moment you
think you want to be on reality TV to you've
finished filming and you want to brand yourself, you want
(44:42):
to be social media successful? Like, what are the lessons?
What are the things that we can give you to
empower you to do that while also protecting your legal
rights and protect giving you the information you need to
leave it in a in the best mental state that
you can. Right. So, again we're a brand new nonprofit.
It's been just a bit over a year. We're still
trying to find our footing. But again, we just want
(45:04):
to build this community. And I would love it if
you're a cast member, If you're thinking about becoming a
cast member, talk to us.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
And like you said, change is coming and people are
talking about mental health and it's so refreshing to know
that people care about this, and like in the entertainment
industry especially, and people even watch old shows like America's
Next Top Model and Jersey Shore and they're just like
pulled on some of the things that.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Were normalized back then.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
So yeah, we have shifted as a society and a culture,
and or I should say we have shifted as a
society and the mental health culture has become more in
the forefront. So it's only a matter of time before
we will see some sort of change. But it's incredible
(45:59):
having the UK Foundation be in the forefront of that
for unscripted TV. And when I was in the meadows
dealing with all of this stuff and really like reconnecting
with myself and praying for my future, I came out
of the meadows and one of my friends that I
(46:20):
met in there sent me a clip It was Nick
Thompson talking about his experience, and there was like a
clip of you, Jeremy speaking on the situation and this
UCAM foundation, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like this didn't.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Exist before I went into the meadows, Like this.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Is so cool that it's very much in alignment with
the times. And I'm just very grateful to have been
able to connect with you guys and to have been
able to get the resources that I needed to speak
freely about my experience, because if I didn't have that,
(47:05):
my life could have looked completely different. And I just
feel like having a voice is so important and it's
something that I've worked my whole life to find. So
I thank you guys for helping me be able to
speak on my experience.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Absolutely, and I'm so grateful that you're part of you CAN.
I think we're so mission aligned and that I was
that hit home so much when I was out in
California and we were just chatting and talking. I think
we're of this mind that just because we went through
an experience doesn't mean other people should like we can.
Our bad experience can be leveraged to make the world
(47:49):
a better place and ultimately that's what we're trying to
do here.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Well, thank you Jeremy, thank you guys for listening and
tuning in, and I hope you learned something new today
or maybe your perspective has shifted a little bit, or
if you need some resources, hopefully we helped you out
and could direct you.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Into place that it's useful for you.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Thanks Staring Me, Thanks Rachel.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel gos Rogue.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Follow us on
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content at Rachel gos
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