May 29, 2025 • 41 mins
If you’ve ever wondered how perceived powerful women like Cassie, Capricorn, and “Mia” could fall victim to the abuse they’ve bravely testified about—Aubrey understands. She’s lived her own versions of it.
In this raw and revealing episode, Aubrey opens up about her own harrowing experience when love crossed the line into control and cruelty. Through her personal experiences exposed, with the help of trauma therapist Dr. Goldsher, they will unpack the thin, often invisible line between desire, danger, sex and shame. This isn’t just a story about survival – it’s a reckoning with the silence that keeps too many victims in the dark.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Amy and TJ presents Aubrey Oday covering the Ditty trial.
Hey everyone, welcome back to Amy and TJ presents me
Aubrey O'Day covering the Didty trial. And as always, our
coverage of the Didty Trial continues. So I just want
to let everyone know that I'm flying solo today and
that TJ and Amya are on a much needed vacation,
(00:24):
and I can't wait to announce my guest today who
I'm so excited to speak to. Her name is doctor
Hillary Goldscher, and she is a clinical psychologist and expert
in trauma, recovery and emotional healing. She has over ten
years of experienced in psychotherapy services. She specializes in the
treatment of couples, relationships, depression, anxiety, trauma, grief, and eating disorders. Hillary, Girl,
(00:50):
I think I have experienced almost all of these, So
I am so happy to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I got you, I got you. Thank you so much
for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Thank you for being here. So I specifically felt very
passionate about discussing last week's testimony, in particular the forensic
psychologist Dohn Hughes. Let me first establish John Hughes testified
for the prosecution she testified to trauma, bonding, delayed reporting,
(01:19):
substance use as a coping mechanism. The Internet is buzzing
on this conversation. I think it's so important to establish
with you at the gate, why women stay with their
abusers as it pertains to the Ditty trial.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, this is the question that's sort of floating around
the culture right now. And while I'm disturbed and devastated
about the alleged crimes against the myriad of women involved,
on the sort of silver lining is that we get
to talk about this.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
The question you just asked is complex, and a lot
of people, unfortunately, are having an opportunity to think through
this very nuanced paradigm. Because if you haven't been through it,
or you don't know someone who's been through it, it's
a fair enough question or a fair enough set of
complex factors that get one who is curious and trying
(02:16):
to understand this complex situation to ask why I don't
get it. Why would someone say when things are bad
and scared, yes, yes, that can lead to blaming the
victim or minimizing their trauma, and it's a really negative
vicious cycle for victims and for the paradigm of domestic abuse.
So I'm happy we're talking about it. So I have
(02:38):
a lot to say about why, So feel free to interrupt.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
You can go for it. As I was listening to
her testimony, I found myself looking back on many of
my relationships and understanding many levels to all of her
conversation that she had in testimony that she had, including
utilizing sex as a love language for somebody who had
groomed and established with me that that's how I can
(03:04):
get his attention. So when text messages that say, hey,
I want more, I love you, I can't live without you,
let's make the next one more wild. This is making
so many people react in a way where they think,
clearly she wanted it, Clearly she's asking, Clearly she was willing,
and we all know that there are absolutely established events
that were not willing and that we're not wanted. But
(03:26):
for the ones that were during cross examination, I think
it's good to start breaking down why women do that
and how they find themselves in a position. Women and men,
by the way, because this isn't gender exclusive.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I'm really glad you pointed that out, because obviously there's
shame encircling men who are victims of domestic violence given
the full of male female roles that society establishes.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
But you're right, and by the way, I want to
jump in with you there. When I first started this process,
when Homeland Security came to me, I knew more, potentially
knew more alleged male victims than women. And still potentially
you know alleged victims. I know more men than women.
It's so much harder. And when I hear them discuss
(04:13):
how what they fear in coming forward, it's a completely
different set of things than women do. But we know
that what females face, which is what we're seeing right now,
which is a bunch of people calling you names and
making fun of the things that you would do in
private sexual behavior with your partner. And you know, you
can only imagine how much more complex it goes on
(04:35):
the other side and all of the stigmas that are
associated there. But I find that men even have a
harder time women have come out, and so it is
a little bit more of a conversation. But you do
know instantly when you come out, you likely the first
thing you will experience is being slatshamed and not believed.
If you're with somebody of a higher status, more power,
(04:55):
or more of a fan base or a liking.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Before I get into of the mapro buckets of why
people stay, I'll start where you ended, because shame is
such a thematic reason why both men and women stay.
When one quote comes out via public or criminal accusation,
or just even telling their community that they've been involved
(05:20):
in a domestic abusive situation, there is deep rooted shame
internalized because of their own inability to leave, their admission
that they stayed and endured abuse, and the potential reaction
of the community around them.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
And let me stop with you on that. Right there,
I was in an abusive relationship. I tried to tell
people in a very like on a larger level, and
the response from both the person that was involved in
it and the people around was if it was so bad,
then why did you stay? That to me was always
(05:58):
something that would make my blood boil, and I would
try to keep the more almost that you try to
explain that, the more they sit back and think that
you're full of it. It was so difficult for me
to explain. Nowadays, when I hear somebody say that, it's
an instant trigger for me to be like, oh, you're
definitely abusive, and she's definitely been abused. That line alone,
(06:18):
for me, is a tell. Now maybe it's not always
a tell, but for me, it's a pretty big tell.
And I hate that we're getting caught up in that
place because there's tons of different reasons. Please talk to
me about what they are and let let our audience
know what they are. There's no general trait of anyone victim.
I'm so different than other victims that I know, how
I grew up, racially, gender, all of the above. It's
(06:41):
just a way that you are, the way that you're groomed,
the process in which you fall for these people, and
you experience the abuse, it can trigger something in your
mind that almost creates this attachment through fear, through isolation.
For me, isolation was a big part of it. I
didn't have anybody to lean on, so discuss what those
(07:03):
factors are.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Ooh, you're so well versed, and I'm going to cover back.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Fortunately, you know, for those out there that don't understand this,
you know, I love that you have made very good
decisions for yourself and that you were able to avoid
these types of people in the world. But please make
space for the possibility that these things are very real
for other people.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yes, that's a great foundation to lay forth as I
begin this discussion, which is for those who are listening
that haven't had this experience or don't know anyone in
their sphere that have, just have an open mind. It
is a complex notion, but take a listen to the
set of factors that can intersect that can result in
really strong, amazing women becoming victim over a very victims
(07:48):
over a very long period of time. So let's kind
of start on the macro. There are a number of
reasons and they usually pool together that result in women
or men staying in an abusive relationship, and they fall
on or the following categories. There may be more. I
might miss one or two, but these from my anecdotal,
empirical research and experience are the top ones, which are
(08:09):
psychological and emotional. We'll get into all of these logistical, financial,
physical safety.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Does the first one run into childhood trauma?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yes, we're going to start there, right, psychological and emotional factors.
So often, not always, but often a victim of abuse
comes from a family and the details and the narrative
and the stories vary, the demographics, the socioeconomic status. But
at the core is some version of abandonment, some version
(08:43):
of an internalized sense of low self worth or low value,
and either an implicit or explicit edict to find a scenario,
a relationship, a partner that sort of confirms and of
firms that they're okay, that they're a value you, that
they're worthy, and if they stringed up with someone that
(09:04):
can provide that at times, but there's emotional and physical
rent to pay, through verbal abuse, through physical abuse. Sometimes
the person can't garner the internal resources to value their
emotional and physical safety over the sort of deposit of
(09:25):
self worth that comes when the person chooses them, when
the person is kind to them, when the person is
bonded to them. And this is a complex psychological sort
of notion, but it boils down to pathologically low self worth.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And self worth also does not have a beauty standard.
There are a lot of people that look at Cassie
and don't understand how she could have ever had any
low self worth. She's a perfectly beautiful looking woman according
to social standards. But I do want to make clear
that you know I when I would experience it, it
was exactly what you said due to abandonment from childhood.
(10:02):
And even when I met Diddy relating this back to
Puff himself, he I've said this so many times, but
if you were to ask me now, who would you
want to revisit in your past? Of all the accomplishments
you've had, who's praise would you want to revisit that
made you feel the most full? And still at forty one,
(10:24):
after tons of fucking therapy and tons of feeling and
moving to Bali for two years and doing every little
thing that I possibly could, because talking to a person
and all of the other things just wasn't enough, I
still would say Puff. And that's because he's just so
I keep trying to really describe this to the viewers
because it seems so unreasonable almost, but he's so all consuming.
(10:50):
I've only met a few very powerful people in life,
and I've met them all mostly that steal the air
out of the room. You almost have this palpable rea
like when they come in, because you're gasping for air
because their presence is so big. Now, in that case,
that's a very extreme case of somebody absorbing a room.
(11:10):
But I've met people on everyday levels that I can
see in their relationship are just exhausting all the air
in the room. It's the same type of feeling on
a large scale. But when Puff would be proud of
you and be impressed with you because he's so, he
rarely was. He mostly was very clear about all of
(11:33):
his dislikes and all the things that you weren't doing well,
and all the things that you needed to fix. And
it wasn't healthy language that was being used or healthy.
It's grooming, is what it is. Putting us in scenarios
where our dreams are held over our heads and making
us do a ridiculous things in order to prove ourselves
time and time again. It was called reality TV, and
(11:55):
a network and a production and a whole bunch of
other people signed off on it and thought it was
fun and a great look for television. And unfortunately, I
think it is also part of the response. It needs
to take accountability for itself in regards to how many
people looked up at a television then and decided that
to be life as it is, to decided for that
(12:18):
to be an example for them in one way or another.
You were seeing this very powerful person. A lot of
people that were enamored by his presence, doing all kinds
of ridiculous shit, continuously having to prove themselves in ways
that are unreasonable, like run Central Park until two of
you fall and that's who's going home. These are unreasonable things.
(12:38):
I don't know any other artists that didn't grow up
under that situation that had to do that or was
expected to do that.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Well, you're talking about is the power balance. Imbalance was
normalized and sanctioned and popular, right.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Popular, popular amongst people that wanted to watch it, or
I wouldn't ever returned for that many seasons because because
they can't keep a show on that no one wants
to watch. As a society, we feed into such toxic narratives,
and those narratives play out right in front of us
on our televisions. The way that I saw that I
(13:16):
returned back to a healthy state was I had to
disconnect from this country. I had to leave and go
to another country and live there and disconnect socials and
everything and get out of the way of the way
that we are socialized. And nowadays our phones are our currency.
Your content is your life if you're in entertainment. We
(13:36):
have such an addiction to these devices that are truly
giving us a lot of unhealthy messages. So what do
you advise to people who are seeing shows on television
or seeing articles on their phones without you know, we've
had discussions on this show about headlines and narrating people's
lives without any proof or reaching out to find out
(13:59):
if anything is fast actual, just blanket making statements that
aren't even true. What is your opinion for those people
that are so lost in that toxic cycle that they
could be definitely in a position to be I think
what it is personally is creating an identity for people.
When you're depending on those sources for an identity, you
(14:19):
could end up on a pretty bad path in life.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, it's a big ask for people to disconnect from
their affiliation around those narratives. It's seductive, very seductive.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Is that all it takes? Seduction?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Well, I mean it intersects with a number of factors, right,
probably anxiety, restlessness, boredom, low self worth. Right, Imbibing those
headlines and becoming attached to those narratives offers us a
version of a dopamine hit. Right, It's an escape from
(14:58):
our own reality and gives us sometimes an opportunity to
be righteous. And judge, which can give us an avenue
to escape from our own.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Pain and give you a high to be able to
be somebody that knows better. You're getting a little bit
of a serotonin boost almost.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Question for people out there that are trying to get
out of a toxic situation or out of a situation
where they're being abused. I have a lot of people
writing me right now that are inside of abusive relationships,
and I see the spiral. I don't have quick advice.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Let me do a quick summary of why people are there,
and then we'll go into how do you begin to
even think about extracting? So we talked about that emotional
psychological factor briefly, and I could do hours about this
because it's highly complex. Not everyone who's had abandonment in
their childhood end up abuse of relationships, of course that's true.
(16:02):
But people who end up in abusive relationships often have
this as a background, yes, And so that's one of
the aspects that we more often than not see. The
other we address briefly, which is guilt and shame, the
internalized guilt for being someone that would subject themselves to
these dynamics and allow themselves to be a victim are overwhelming,
(16:23):
can cause emotional paralysis, what we call a severe collapse response,
where you're literally internally and physically in a fetal position,
unable to think, unable to act. The entire nervous system
shuts down, goes into a fight or flight solely because
of the shame, let alone the emotional and physical abuse
(16:44):
you may be enduring. So it's not just a decision
should I stay or should I go. The body goes
into an absolute trauma mode in a fight or flight state,
and we have courts, all the stress worm on running
for our body. We have adrenaline running for our body,
which is ane and what does that do? That, amongst
other things, disallows us to access our full frontal lobe
(17:06):
and make good decisions and use our full judgment. So
that is absolutely part of the reason that people are
unable to curate resources to go. The other we talked
about briefly at the top was logistical. Some people literally
have nowhere to go? Where am I going?
Speaker 1 (17:21):
And if users do a good job of isolating you
away from your finances, such as you know Cassie. Cassie's case,
there were allegedly laptops taken away, her car taken away.
At those levels, you see things like that. At smaller levels,
your abuser could see something minor that you had a
little flaw about and pick at it.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yes, that's right, that's right. Break you down your confidence
and your sense of agency and mastery and feel unable
to do anything by telling victims that they're stupid or
incapable and beating them down day after day after day,
so that even if the fat pattern isn't true, the
woman is absolutely capable. She internalizes is that she's not,
(18:00):
So you're right, logistic, she'll often go together. I have
nowhere to go. I have no ability to make money,
and intersects with that first tendant, which is shame if
I because people listening might say, well, go to your
best friend, go to your mom, go to your pastor
go to your therapist. That shame piece. I'm so ashamed
for how badly I feel about myself or allowing myself
(18:22):
to be in this position. My fight or flight system
has been triggered. I'm paralyzed. I can't do.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Anything, and also paralyzed feeling. For me when I was
in it was so significant that I don't think I
could have gone to Google and found a therapist and
waited for an appointment and gotten in when they could
see me. That sometimes could take a month, depending on
where you're at or what your access is. In the
exact moments when I was that shut down, I mean,
I had points where he would lock me outside of
(18:48):
the house to punish me if there was something I
did that he didn't like, and I would ring the doorbell,
he would undo the wiring, and so the doorbell wasn't
working anymore, which I didn't realize at the time, but
through pattern of therapy, I realized a parent of mine
had done that to me in childhood. And then when
I would sit outside, I would realize, like, he has
me out here in next to nothing for clothing, so
(19:11):
I can't go running around the neighborhood looking like this,
I'm stuck. He's like, I'm being punished. And the only
way for me through the punishments were a drug that
I was given by somebody senior that made me be
able to go to sleep and forget about everything, called
ambient Yes. And so you know, in Cassie's state there
(19:33):
there was a lot of access to a lot of
different drugs, but I knew that without and sometimes I'd
be without my phone. The only thing that I would
bag for and I would need in any of those
settings was enough ambient to sleep and forget and wake
up and try again. And sometimes it took multiple times.
Sometimes I was out there overnight, but I would do
(19:54):
my best. And people would never believe this coming from me,
because they tend to see me as such a confident person.
I do not even understand how I got there.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Oh, Aubrey, I'm so so sorry to hear this. I'm
having a visceral reaction to that experience.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Me too, just thinking, so I've shed that person so
many times, all the layers of that human I don't
I ache for her.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I do too, And if you don't mind, I'll use
your experience to elucidate what we're talking about, which is
so in that moment, the intersection of factors, right, you
feel choiceless, resourceless, your body's in fight or flight. You're
completely paralyzed. You may even have what I alluded to before,
which is a SEVERER response collapse, which is actually a
phenomenon where you basically go into a primitive state, a
(20:41):
completely regressed state, where you.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Can on the floor. I was on the floor, asked
for water. It was in a dog bowl.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I'm devastated for you. I'm devastated, and I really appreciate
your vulnerability for saying this out loud, because it's it's
a horrifying truth, and yet maybe helps viewers and listeners
understand that someone is resilient and strong and you know,
sort of together as you are, and a peer can
have an intersection of factors occur where they've wind up
(21:10):
in this position. The other unique thing that happens in
abusive situations that I think is confusing people as they
listen to the trial, and you've briefly alluded to in
your own experience, is this pull to reunite with the abuser. Right, so,
even in that moment, I would imagine all you wanted
was for him to come and get you and tell
(21:30):
you you were in good standing again. And so what
is this? What is this that we want the abuser
to say, No, actually, I pick you, I choose you,
and can come back inside metaphorically and literally come back
in my in the fold. This and I believe this
was discussed on the stand by doctor Hughes. This is
the well known but like overused notion of trauma bonding,
(21:52):
and let me say a little more about it, because
I think people use it so casually these days that
it doesn't capture what it's meant to from a clinical standpoint.
But trauma bonding is around the notion that abuse often
follows a cycle right where there's tension building, the victim
is trying to please and please and please. The explosion happens,
and the intense abuse occurs, whether it's physical or emotional,
(22:15):
mental or both, and then there's the pull for the
victim to reunite. It's essentially getting they're fill of nutrients,
their lifeline. When am I going to get brought back
to life? They feel like they're choiceless, optionless, there's no
other resources or connection or people available because of all
the things I just said.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Or their most important self exists within being with that man.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
That's right, And so that pull to get reconnected and
get back in the honeymoon period, which is almost always
part of what happens after an enormous explosion. The abuser
feels some degree of shame and guilt and will shower
the victim with all the things that make them feel love,
(23:00):
whether it's tangible goods or.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Oh man, I came home to the brand new phone.
There was a display. I posted it to show how
much I was loved. Yes, I just didn't see all
the things that I had to go through to get
to that day.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yes. And so for someone going back to our original
discussion round abandonment and early childhood trauma, getting that honeymoon
and that sort of deluge of the showing of love
and affection is so compelling and seductive. That's part it's
not the only reason, but that's part of why the
cycle stays intact. And that intermittent reinforcement of love and
(23:39):
cruelty creates a powerful emotional dependency.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yes, stronger than drugs. I wish it could have been
easier than drugs. It's stronger than drugs to get over.
If you watch intervention now, put that times five billion.
That's what somebody who was in an abusive, toxic cycle
times five billion is trying to recover from. It's so difficult.
I remember, even I did everything, and I mean I
(24:03):
would separate, I would get with people, I would get
into therapy. I luckily have a best friend who's a
therapist who would connect me back in and I sat
with a therapist in LA that was like, you know,
off insurance five hundred and fifty bucks an hour. She's,
you know, a therapist to all the celebrities, and she
would have known exactly what it was. I found myself
with therapists a lot of times that didn't that I
(24:25):
could see looking at the clock, or that I could
see didn't truly haven't. They would go like wow, really
like they couldn't understand just what I went through with
Diddy because it was I was talking in such extremes.
I could see their level of shock, and I realized, like, oh,
I can't even take them past this point. They're not
going to be able to understand it. And then I
noticed when I went to this woman that I spent
(24:47):
all of this money and she would give me these
gems and I would leave and I would feel confident
on my drive home from Malibu. The whole time I
knew it. But by the time six or seven or
eight rolled around, and my abandonment sunk again, and my loneliness,
and because being in this industry and being a celebrity
is super isolating in general, I start to want that
(25:08):
feeling of what I thought it was is my best
friend back, my happiest highest self was when we were connected.
It was the most it felt like it felt like
somebody loved me for real, not like a fan's telling
me I love you all over the place that never
resonated as real to me. So I remember getting running
(25:28):
right back to him, and I remember getting in the
car out of the airport and him laughing and saying
to me, look at my brand new watch, Babe. It
costs as much money, babe. Look at babe, I have
a new role as babe. You spent all that money
on therapy and I got a new watch, babe, But
you're still here with me, babe. Hamp babe, good choice, babe.
And I remember thinking to myself, It's true. I have
(25:49):
spent as much money as that watches trying to get
over this person. And at the end of the day,
a therapist cannot They can guide you to the water,
but you have to drink, which is why I ended
up going to ball and getting out and trying other
sources to check in with myself. Mostly the disconnection was
the important part, but I had to get out of
it somehow, and therapy was just not working enough because
(26:12):
they can only tell you as much as they can
tell you, but you have to want the change, and
you have to be able to make the change when
you leave there. You can feel so empowered in the sessions,
but I found and that's for anybody that maybe is
in therapy, feeling that power and then leaving and going
right back. I found myself doing that for years.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yes, well, you're highlighting a really significant aspect of this,
which is the addictive nature. And I'm not using that
term in quotes. I'm talking about science, chemistry, what happens
in the brain. And we alluded to this earlier. But
just like when you use drugs or drink or gamble,
et cetera. And there's I'm sort of oversimplifying it, but
(26:53):
there's a version of a dopamine and a serotonin hit,
which is the feel good chemical inside of us. The
exact same thing happens during the reunification process with an abuser.
For all of the reasons that I was just describing
and more that we can go into if we find
the time, but it is the same process. And so
you're talking about literal detox I don't mean detalks and quotes.
(27:18):
You're talking about in part to truly get away from
an abusive relationship, you have to detox, which means you
have to be away from the person, and whatever that takes,
whether it's moving to another country or some curation of
resources amongst your community, can change from scenario to scenario,
of course, but that's what you're talking about. And in
(27:39):
the absence of true detox ie, not being with the person,
you're not going to be able to truly go away.
Why because your brain will seek the hit of the
serotonin dopamine time and time again in a very similar
way that an attic does. And so conceptualizing that way
first helps people understand as they're observing and thinking about
(28:03):
it from the outside, but also it helps people in
it perhaps think about resources in a different way. Who
specializes in this arena is going to be very useful.
But the curation of resources to help with removal, yesation
has to be incredibly robust, which I don't want to
end our time together. I know we're not almost done,
(28:24):
but without saying this, which is the final book, critical
piece that I'm thinking about around why people stay is
the fear of retaliation.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
And that's huge with Cassie.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Keep going, Yes, Empirically, empirically, data statistics The most dangerous
period for abuse victims is when they're thinking about leaving,
When they leave, and in the aftermath.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
The aftermath is a big one that we don't talk
about enough. The aftermath. You know, you can't get those
highs anymore, so you're dependent on You got to find
something for the high or you've got to be ripe
and ready for and change is not an easy thing
to just snap your fingers and go to. As you
get older, you learn that you have more control over
your brain than you think. But when you're younger and
(29:10):
you're still learning, I would look around anywhere and everywhere
for it. And unfortunately, specifically in Cassie's case, there were
so many things that there were so many addictions around
her that she had many things to overcome. It seems
like everybody's found had to find ways outside of puff
(29:30):
to move into, places to move into that would provide
their sense of self any more sense of self meaning
you can wake up and feel joy and happiness just
within yourself.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
So you're talking about two pieces. One is the internal
risk of the victim once they leave recklessly searching for
that high.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yes, for anyone that didn't understand what she had to
say in regards to being in fear of him, or
they didn't believe it, you can believe it after kid
Cutty's testimony. Those are two different people and the result
(30:16):
of both the two different statuses, two different relationships with
the man, and yet the common denominator and all of
it is force violence, extreme violence, and people not even
coming forward and wanting to tell on the person or
create a proper trail amongst the public of the events
and the behaviors out of fear of retaliation. So it
(30:39):
existed on all levels with him. Now, I want to
take you through before we finish the cross examination, so
we could kind of go over the way that the
defense team is kind of using a multi prong strategy
in regards to obviously the denial of the allegations they've
categorically denied them or learning I don't know, not so true.
(31:00):
They are attacking her credibility. We've seen that on the stand.
We've seen that with multiple witnesses, financial motivations, career opportunities, inconsistencies,
and testimony, continuing to seek the relationship with puff after
you've already gone over. While all of those would occur specifically,
(31:22):
a lot of people have issues with Don Hughes. What
are your thoughts on that she kind of got beaten
up during the Amber Johnny trial that left all of
us sitting on the edge of our seats because there
was such an admiration for Johnny Depp. Anyone that was
explaining her behavior that they, you know, some people felt
was didn't come off as sincere. Don Hughes took a
(31:44):
lot of heat when trying to explain that they have
made the criticism, specifically in this case, that she did
not interview Cassie, she did not interview Ditty, she has
not sat down with anyone involved in this, and she
does not know their personal records, health records, mental health records.
Is there some kind of is there something to say
for that defense, for that specific defense, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Mean I don't think we can out of hand dismiss
the truth that she didn't directly interview the victim or
the alleged perpetrator.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Would you be able to believe her in your profession
even if she hadn't done that.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
It's common practice. It happens all the time. I mean,
if you didn't know that, if you look at many
cases that are not high profile, there is often not always,
but often an expert brought in who has not had
access to anyone on the defense or anyone in the
prosecution side. So it's an argument that is utilized often,
and so it makes sense the defense would raise it,
(32:43):
and in my opinion, you would stipulate to that. Absolutely.
I'm not trying to suggest I have rights or the
alleged perpetrator. I clearly have not. And just like myself,
if you have expertise clinically anecdotally over many, many decades.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
You know you can you can have an educated opinion
on what's going on here, No question. They did say
she's only ever worked with victims, never with the abusers themselves,
so to get a full fair perspective of both sides,
they feel that would have been necessary. Do you agree
with that or no?
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Again, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as a truth,
but most, not all, but most clinicians that specialize in
domestic violence, and clinicians might might comment that this isn't
true for them, But most, if not many, either treat
victims or perpetrators and don't necessarily treat both.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Because that why is that I would want a full perspective,
almost to if there is any saving grace on an
abuser's side, which, listen, I'm not a psychologist, so I
can say what everybody thinks. That sounds like bullshit to me.
But if I'm being fair and I'm wanting to stay
as professional as possible, I'd want to hear both sides
out and understand the mentality. I don't know that we
(34:04):
need to understand the mentality of an abuser, but is
there something to that.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I mean, there's sort of a professional reason, which is
less interesting that when you have areas of expertise, you
become hyper focused on that particular area. So if you're
an expert in working with domestic violence victims, you just
do a deep dive into that particular population, and how
you would treat them and conceptualize those cases would be
(34:29):
wildly different than how you would treat and conceptualize the
case of an abuser. So some of it is just
sort of professional trajectory and really focusing on a particular
area of expertise, which many clinicians do, including myself, on
various topics. Like a clinician might say, I'm an expert
in trauma and that's sort of all I do. I
don't really do specifically depression anxiety, even though those are
(34:52):
aspects of trauma, for example. So it's not unheard of
in my world to focus on one or two arenas
and have it be your area of focus. You, as
a clinician treating victims have besides someone who only treats
or also treats perpetrators or alleged perpetrators, You have as
(35:15):
much insight as possible relative to the normal practitioner into
the world of and the patterns of abusers. So while
you might not work directly with them, you have a
lot of anecdotal and clinical data from your work with victims,
or collaborative efforts with all of the people involved.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Or even your overall understanding of abuse in general. You
maybe don't even have to specifically work with either side
and your profession. You have enough information to understand the patterns,
and unfortunately, what people don't realize is these patterns are
pretty common and pretty standard and pretty repetitive when it
comes to every case. There are certain things that thread
through even that if you feel two cases are completely different.
(35:57):
Now question, is it possible that somebody could make up
and lie about everything that they're experiencing and an abuser
could be wrongly accused. Do you see that happening a
lot or is it very rare?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
I would say it's somewhere in the middle. I don't
think it happens a lot in like clinical and anecdotal experience.
That's quite a thing to put yourself through to come
out as a victim and have it not be true.
And there are other psychological factors going on. If that's
the case, it's not unheard of. It hasn't never played
out double negative, but so it occurs less than occasionally
(36:38):
a pretty small amount, very small amount. And in this case,
in the ditty case, there is a myriad of it
appears of collaborating evidence that's been submitted in court in
terms of eyewitnesses and texts and videos, etc. That suggests
this isn't the case, But yes, it has a.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Before Okay, So question, last question for anyone out there
right now, if I could revisit many me and anyone
out there that is currently in this in this situation,
or they're identifying or feeling very triggered by what they're seeing, obviously,
in my opinion, I would suggest look around you and
(37:20):
see how recognizable the things you're seeing in front of
you or looking at in front of you, if they're
mirroring anything that you're experiencing currently around you, even people
that speak about it in a certain way, I would
pay attention to that as well as I want your
advice to anyone out there that's potentially in a situation
(37:42):
like that. There some is there something that I could
have heard or anyone that has been in this could
have heard that could have made us feel like there
was a walkable path to get there sooner than we did.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yes, And I'm going to deliberately over simplify i M
answer because anyone in this position is completely overwhelmed and
has their nervous system triggered, and their inability to think
or consider options is limited, if almost non existent. So
my piece of advice, my first edict is tell a
(38:17):
safe other, Tell a safe other. If you can just
do that, If you can just do that, it opens
up the door for your experience to be mirrored back
to you as the reality of what it is, and
for resources to begin to be curated.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
And also, can you please give the safe other who
has somebody come to them and say that to them
a great directive to help them because sometimes a lot
of safe others don't know how to respond, and maybe
we can help safe others out as well.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
So if you hear this information error on the side
of believing and say that out loud.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Say that again for the keep Seats doc.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
If you are the safe other, err on the side
of believing and say it, I believe you and that
is not okay. Those are the two things that you
should say, I believe you. It is your right to notice,
your right to say it's not okay, and then I
will help you. And a safe other should not know
(39:28):
how they should go about helping someone because it's not
their area of expertise. But find someone who does. You
talked to your primary care physician, Google therapist in your
neck of the woods that specializes in domestic violence.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Could someone do if they had no money and they
had no healthcare and they had somebody that told them
I believe you. But what it could be a next
step for somebody that does not have access to a doctor,
a primary care physician, or can afford to go to
somebody that they google.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
In most cities, there are free or incredibly low fee
clinics in most cities. If you're in a very rural
part of the country that might not be true, but
perhaps the safe Other can take you to the nearest one.
So googling free and or a low fee clinic for
mental health will get you in front of a provider
(40:26):
or a clinician that can start to help you curate resources.
There are safe houses also for domestic abuse survivors in
various cities, again not in the smaller ones, but that's
another thing that your safe other can help you find.
Is there a resource locally or somewhere that you can
commute to as a first step.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Thank you so much. I have enjoyed this conversation with you,
doctor Hillary so much. You're so impressive. Obviously you know that,
but I think this was an important conversation to have
for people out there that are very triggered by this
or experiencing it personally, and for those of you who
haven't to truly leave space for the stories that you
(41:08):
will continue to hear during this trial and for those
that you're hearing around you. Be that safe person for
somebody and show up because this is something that really
needs to start being mended on a larger scale. Thank
you so much, doctor Hillary. Really appreciate you. Taking the
time with me today to discuss this.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Thanks for having me, and thanks for your bravery and
sharing your story.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
All right, guys, tune into another episode of Amy and
TJ presents Aubrey O'Day covering the Ditty Trial.
Amy and TJ presents Aubrey Oday covering the Ditty trial.
Hey everyone, welcome back to Amy and TJ presents me
Aubrey O'Day covering the Didty trial. And as always, our
coverage of the Didty Trial continues. So I just want
to let everyone know that I'm flying solo today and
that TJ and Amya are on a much needed vacation,
(00:24):
and I can't wait to announce my guest today who
I'm so excited to speak to. Her name is doctor
Hillary Goldscher, and she is a clinical psychologist and expert
in trauma, recovery and emotional healing. She has over ten
years of experienced in psychotherapy services. She specializes in the
treatment of couples, relationships, depression, anxiety, trauma, grief, and eating disorders. Hillary, Girl,
(00:50):
I think I have experienced almost all of these, So
I am so happy to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I got you, I got you. Thank you so much
for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Thank you for being here. So I specifically felt very
passionate about discussing last week's testimony, in particular the forensic
psychologist Dohn Hughes. Let me first establish John Hughes testified
for the prosecution she testified to trauma, bonding, delayed reporting,
(01:19):
substance use as a coping mechanism. The Internet is buzzing
on this conversation. I think it's so important to establish
with you at the gate, why women stay with their
abusers as it pertains to the Ditty trial.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, this is the question that's sort of floating around
the culture right now. And while I'm disturbed and devastated
about the alleged crimes against the myriad of women involved,
on the sort of silver lining is that we get
to talk about this.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
The question you just asked is complex, and a lot
of people, unfortunately, are having an opportunity to think through
this very nuanced paradigm. Because if you haven't been through it,
or you don't know someone who's been through it, it's
a fair enough question or a fair enough set of
complex factors that get one who is curious and trying
(02:16):
to understand this complex situation to ask why I don't
get it. Why would someone say when things are bad
and scared, yes, yes, that can lead to blaming the
victim or minimizing their trauma, and it's a really negative
vicious cycle for victims and for the paradigm of domestic abuse.
So I'm happy we're talking about it. So I have
(02:38):
a lot to say about why, So feel free to interrupt.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
You can go for it. As I was listening to
her testimony, I found myself looking back on many of
my relationships and understanding many levels to all of her
conversation that she had in testimony that she had, including
utilizing sex as a love language for somebody who had
groomed and established with me that that's how I can
(03:04):
get his attention. So when text messages that say, hey,
I want more, I love you, I can't live without you,
let's make the next one more wild. This is making
so many people react in a way where they think,
clearly she wanted it, Clearly she's asking, Clearly she was willing,
and we all know that there are absolutely established events
that were not willing and that we're not wanted. But
(03:26):
for the ones that were during cross examination, I think
it's good to start breaking down why women do that
and how they find themselves in a position. Women and men,
by the way, because this isn't gender exclusive.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I'm really glad you pointed that out, because obviously there's
shame encircling men who are victims of domestic violence given
the full of male female roles that society establishes.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
But you're right, and by the way, I want to
jump in with you there. When I first started this process,
when Homeland Security came to me, I knew more, potentially
knew more alleged male victims than women. And still potentially
you know alleged victims. I know more men than women.
It's so much harder. And when I hear them discuss
(04:13):
how what they fear in coming forward, it's a completely
different set of things than women do. But we know
that what females face, which is what we're seeing right now,
which is a bunch of people calling you names and
making fun of the things that you would do in
private sexual behavior with your partner. And you know, you
can only imagine how much more complex it goes on
(04:35):
the other side and all of the stigmas that are
associated there. But I find that men even have a
harder time women have come out, and so it is
a little bit more of a conversation. But you do
know instantly when you come out, you likely the first
thing you will experience is being slatshamed and not believed.
If you're with somebody of a higher status, more power,
(04:55):
or more of a fan base or a liking.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Before I get into of the mapro buckets of why
people stay, I'll start where you ended, because shame is
such a thematic reason why both men and women stay.
When one quote comes out via public or criminal accusation,
or just even telling their community that they've been involved
(05:20):
in a domestic abusive situation, there is deep rooted shame
internalized because of their own inability to leave, their admission
that they stayed and endured abuse, and the potential reaction
of the community around them.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
And let me stop with you on that. Right there,
I was in an abusive relationship. I tried to tell
people in a very like on a larger level, and
the response from both the person that was involved in
it and the people around was if it was so bad,
then why did you stay? That to me was always
(05:58):
something that would make my blood boil, and I would
try to keep the more almost that you try to
explain that, the more they sit back and think that
you're full of it. It was so difficult for me
to explain. Nowadays, when I hear somebody say that, it's
an instant trigger for me to be like, oh, you're
definitely abusive, and she's definitely been abused. That line alone,
(06:18):
for me, is a tell. Now maybe it's not always
a tell, but for me, it's a pretty big tell.
And I hate that we're getting caught up in that
place because there's tons of different reasons. Please talk to
me about what they are and let let our audience
know what they are. There's no general trait of anyone victim.
I'm so different than other victims that I know, how
I grew up, racially, gender, all of the above. It's
(06:41):
just a way that you are, the way that you're groomed,
the process in which you fall for these people, and
you experience the abuse, it can trigger something in your
mind that almost creates this attachment through fear, through isolation.
For me, isolation was a big part of it. I
didn't have anybody to lean on, so discuss what those
(07:03):
factors are.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Ooh, you're so well versed, and I'm going to cover back.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Fortunately, you know, for those out there that don't understand this,
you know, I love that you have made very good
decisions for yourself and that you were able to avoid
these types of people in the world. But please make
space for the possibility that these things are very real
for other people.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yes, that's a great foundation to lay forth as I
begin this discussion, which is for those who are listening
that haven't had this experience or don't know anyone in
their sphere that have, just have an open mind. It
is a complex notion, but take a listen to the
set of factors that can intersect that can result in
really strong, amazing women becoming victim over a very victims
(07:48):
over a very long period of time. So let's kind
of start on the macro. There are a number of
reasons and they usually pool together that result in women
or men staying in an abusive relationship, and they fall
on or the following categories. There may be more. I
might miss one or two, but these from my anecdotal,
empirical research and experience are the top ones, which are
(08:09):
psychological and emotional. We'll get into all of these logistical, financial,
physical safety.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Does the first one run into childhood trauma?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yes, we're going to start there, right, psychological and emotional factors.
So often, not always, but often a victim of abuse
comes from a family and the details and the narrative
and the stories vary, the demographics, the socioeconomic status. But
at the core is some version of abandonment, some version
(08:43):
of an internalized sense of low self worth or low value,
and either an implicit or explicit edict to find a scenario,
a relationship, a partner that sort of confirms and of
firms that they're okay, that they're a value you, that
they're worthy, and if they stringed up with someone that
(09:04):
can provide that at times, but there's emotional and physical
rent to pay, through verbal abuse, through physical abuse. Sometimes
the person can't garner the internal resources to value their
emotional and physical safety over the sort of deposit of
(09:25):
self worth that comes when the person chooses them, when
the person is kind to them, when the person is
bonded to them. And this is a complex psychological sort
of notion, but it boils down to pathologically low self worth.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And self worth also does not have a beauty standard.
There are a lot of people that look at Cassie
and don't understand how she could have ever had any
low self worth. She's a perfectly beautiful looking woman according
to social standards. But I do want to make clear
that you know I when I would experience it, it
was exactly what you said due to abandonment from childhood.
(10:02):
And even when I met Diddy relating this back to
Puff himself, he I've said this so many times, but
if you were to ask me now, who would you
want to revisit in your past? Of all the accomplishments
you've had, who's praise would you want to revisit that
made you feel the most full? And still at forty one,
(10:24):
after tons of fucking therapy and tons of feeling and
moving to Bali for two years and doing every little
thing that I possibly could, because talking to a person
and all of the other things just wasn't enough, I
still would say Puff. And that's because he's just so
I keep trying to really describe this to the viewers
because it seems so unreasonable almost, but he's so all consuming.
(10:50):
I've only met a few very powerful people in life,
and I've met them all mostly that steal the air
out of the room. You almost have this palpable rea
like when they come in, because you're gasping for air
because their presence is so big. Now, in that case,
that's a very extreme case of somebody absorbing a room.
(11:10):
But I've met people on everyday levels that I can
see in their relationship are just exhausting all the air
in the room. It's the same type of feeling on
a large scale. But when Puff would be proud of
you and be impressed with you because he's so, he
rarely was. He mostly was very clear about all of
(11:33):
his dislikes and all the things that you weren't doing well,
and all the things that you needed to fix. And
it wasn't healthy language that was being used or healthy.
It's grooming, is what it is. Putting us in scenarios
where our dreams are held over our heads and making
us do a ridiculous things in order to prove ourselves
time and time again. It was called reality TV, and
(11:55):
a network and a production and a whole bunch of
other people signed off on it and thought it was
fun and a great look for television. And unfortunately, I
think it is also part of the response. It needs
to take accountability for itself in regards to how many
people looked up at a television then and decided that
to be life as it is, to decided for that
(12:18):
to be an example for them in one way or another.
You were seeing this very powerful person. A lot of
people that were enamored by his presence, doing all kinds
of ridiculous shit, continuously having to prove themselves in ways
that are unreasonable, like run Central Park until two of
you fall and that's who's going home. These are unreasonable things.
(12:38):
I don't know any other artists that didn't grow up
under that situation that had to do that or was
expected to do that.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Well, you're talking about is the power balance. Imbalance was
normalized and sanctioned and popular, right.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Popular, popular amongst people that wanted to watch it, or
I wouldn't ever returned for that many seasons because because
they can't keep a show on that no one wants
to watch. As a society, we feed into such toxic narratives,
and those narratives play out right in front of us
on our televisions. The way that I saw that I
(13:16):
returned back to a healthy state was I had to
disconnect from this country. I had to leave and go
to another country and live there and disconnect socials and
everything and get out of the way of the way
that we are socialized. And nowadays our phones are our currency.
Your content is your life if you're in entertainment. We
(13:36):
have such an addiction to these devices that are truly
giving us a lot of unhealthy messages. So what do
you advise to people who are seeing shows on television
or seeing articles on their phones without you know, we've
had discussions on this show about headlines and narrating people's
lives without any proof or reaching out to find out
(13:59):
if anything is fast actual, just blanket making statements that
aren't even true. What is your opinion for those people
that are so lost in that toxic cycle that they
could be definitely in a position to be I think
what it is personally is creating an identity for people.
When you're depending on those sources for an identity, you
(14:19):
could end up on a pretty bad path in life.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, it's a big ask for people to disconnect from
their affiliation around those narratives. It's seductive, very seductive.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Is that all it takes? Seduction?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Well, I mean it intersects with a number of factors, right,
probably anxiety, restlessness, boredom, low self worth. Right, Imbibing those
headlines and becoming attached to those narratives offers us a
version of a dopamine hit. Right, It's an escape from
(14:58):
our own reality and gives us sometimes an opportunity to
be righteous. And judge, which can give us an avenue
to escape from our own.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Pain and give you a high to be able to
be somebody that knows better. You're getting a little bit
of a serotonin boost almost.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Question for people out there that are trying to get
out of a toxic situation or out of a situation
where they're being abused. I have a lot of people
writing me right now that are inside of abusive relationships,
and I see the spiral. I don't have quick advice.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Let me do a quick summary of why people are there,
and then we'll go into how do you begin to
even think about extracting? So we talked about that emotional
psychological factor briefly, and I could do hours about this
because it's highly complex. Not everyone who's had abandonment in
their childhood end up abuse of relationships, of course that's true.
(16:02):
But people who end up in abusive relationships often have
this as a background, yes, And so that's one of
the aspects that we more often than not see. The
other we address briefly, which is guilt and shame, the
internalized guilt for being someone that would subject themselves to
these dynamics and allow themselves to be a victim are overwhelming,
(16:23):
can cause emotional paralysis, what we call a severe collapse response,
where you're literally internally and physically in a fetal position,
unable to think, unable to act. The entire nervous system
shuts down, goes into a fight or flight solely because
of the shame, let alone the emotional and physical abuse
(16:44):
you may be enduring. So it's not just a decision
should I stay or should I go. The body goes
into an absolute trauma mode in a fight or flight state,
and we have courts, all the stress worm on running
for our body. We have adrenaline running for our body,
which is ane and what does that do? That, amongst
other things, disallows us to access our full frontal lobe
(17:06):
and make good decisions and use our full judgment. So
that is absolutely part of the reason that people are
unable to curate resources to go. The other we talked
about briefly at the top was logistical. Some people literally
have nowhere to go? Where am I going?
Speaker 1 (17:21):
And if users do a good job of isolating you
away from your finances, such as you know Cassie. Cassie's case,
there were allegedly laptops taken away, her car taken away.
At those levels, you see things like that. At smaller levels,
your abuser could see something minor that you had a
little flaw about and pick at it.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yes, that's right, that's right. Break you down your confidence
and your sense of agency and mastery and feel unable
to do anything by telling victims that they're stupid or
incapable and beating them down day after day after day,
so that even if the fat pattern isn't true, the
woman is absolutely capable. She internalizes is that she's not,
(18:00):
So you're right, logistic, she'll often go together. I have
nowhere to go. I have no ability to make money,
and intersects with that first tendant, which is shame if
I because people listening might say, well, go to your
best friend, go to your mom, go to your pastor
go to your therapist. That shame piece. I'm so ashamed
for how badly I feel about myself or allowing myself
(18:22):
to be in this position. My fight or flight system
has been triggered. I'm paralyzed. I can't do.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Anything, and also paralyzed feeling. For me when I was
in it was so significant that I don't think I
could have gone to Google and found a therapist and
waited for an appointment and gotten in when they could
see me. That sometimes could take a month, depending on
where you're at or what your access is. In the
exact moments when I was that shut down, I mean,
I had points where he would lock me outside of
(18:48):
the house to punish me if there was something I
did that he didn't like, and I would ring the doorbell,
he would undo the wiring, and so the doorbell wasn't
working anymore, which I didn't realize at the time, but
through pattern of therapy, I realized a parent of mine
had done that to me in childhood. And then when
I would sit outside, I would realize, like, he has
me out here in next to nothing for clothing, so
(19:11):
I can't go running around the neighborhood looking like this,
I'm stuck. He's like, I'm being punished. And the only
way for me through the punishments were a drug that
I was given by somebody senior that made me be
able to go to sleep and forget about everything, called
ambient Yes. And so you know, in Cassie's state there
(19:33):
there was a lot of access to a lot of
different drugs, but I knew that without and sometimes I'd
be without my phone. The only thing that I would
bag for and I would need in any of those
settings was enough ambient to sleep and forget and wake
up and try again. And sometimes it took multiple times.
Sometimes I was out there overnight, but I would do
(19:54):
my best. And people would never believe this coming from me,
because they tend to see me as such a confident person.
I do not even understand how I got there.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Oh, Aubrey, I'm so so sorry to hear this. I'm
having a visceral reaction to that experience.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Me too, just thinking, so I've shed that person so
many times, all the layers of that human I don't
I ache for her.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I do too, And if you don't mind, I'll use
your experience to elucidate what we're talking about, which is
so in that moment, the intersection of factors, right, you
feel choiceless, resourceless, your body's in fight or flight. You're
completely paralyzed. You may even have what I alluded to before,
which is a SEVERER response collapse, which is actually a
phenomenon where you basically go into a primitive state, a
(20:41):
completely regressed state, where you.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Can on the floor. I was on the floor, asked
for water. It was in a dog bowl.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I'm devastated for you. I'm devastated, and I really appreciate
your vulnerability for saying this out loud, because it's it's
a horrifying truth, and yet maybe helps viewers and listeners
understand that someone is resilient and strong and you know,
sort of together as you are, and a peer can
have an intersection of factors occur where they've wind up
(21:10):
in this position. The other unique thing that happens in
abusive situations that I think is confusing people as they
listen to the trial, and you've briefly alluded to in
your own experience, is this pull to reunite with the abuser. Right, so,
even in that moment, I would imagine all you wanted
was for him to come and get you and tell
(21:30):
you you were in good standing again. And so what
is this? What is this that we want the abuser
to say, No, actually, I pick you, I choose you,
and can come back inside metaphorically and literally come back
in my in the fold. This and I believe this
was discussed on the stand by doctor Hughes. This is
the well known but like overused notion of trauma bonding,
(21:52):
and let me say a little more about it, because
I think people use it so casually these days that
it doesn't capture what it's meant to from a clinical standpoint.
But trauma bonding is around the notion that abuse often
follows a cycle right where there's tension building, the victim
is trying to please and please and please. The explosion happens,
and the intense abuse occurs, whether it's physical or emotional,
(22:15):
mental or both, and then there's the pull for the
victim to reunite. It's essentially getting they're fill of nutrients,
their lifeline. When am I going to get brought back
to life? They feel like they're choiceless, optionless, there's no
other resources or connection or people available because of all
the things I just said.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Or their most important self exists within being with that man.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
That's right, And so that pull to get reconnected and
get back in the honeymoon period, which is almost always
part of what happens after an enormous explosion. The abuser
feels some degree of shame and guilt and will shower
the victim with all the things that make them feel love,
(23:00):
whether it's tangible goods or.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Oh man, I came home to the brand new phone.
There was a display. I posted it to show how
much I was loved. Yes, I just didn't see all
the things that I had to go through to get
to that day.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yes. And so for someone going back to our original
discussion round abandonment and early childhood trauma, getting that honeymoon
and that sort of deluge of the showing of love
and affection is so compelling and seductive. That's part it's
not the only reason, but that's part of why the
cycle stays intact. And that intermittent reinforcement of love and
(23:39):
cruelty creates a powerful emotional dependency.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yes, stronger than drugs. I wish it could have been
easier than drugs. It's stronger than drugs to get over.
If you watch intervention now, put that times five billion.
That's what somebody who was in an abusive, toxic cycle
times five billion is trying to recover from. It's so difficult.
I remember, even I did everything, and I mean I
(24:03):
would separate, I would get with people, I would get
into therapy. I luckily have a best friend who's a
therapist who would connect me back in and I sat
with a therapist in LA that was like, you know,
off insurance five hundred and fifty bucks an hour. She's,
you know, a therapist to all the celebrities, and she
would have known exactly what it was. I found myself
with therapists a lot of times that didn't that I
(24:25):
could see looking at the clock, or that I could
see didn't truly haven't. They would go like wow, really
like they couldn't understand just what I went through with
Diddy because it was I was talking in such extremes.
I could see their level of shock, and I realized, like, oh,
I can't even take them past this point. They're not
going to be able to understand it. And then I
noticed when I went to this woman that I spent
(24:47):
all of this money and she would give me these
gems and I would leave and I would feel confident
on my drive home from Malibu. The whole time I
knew it. But by the time six or seven or
eight rolled around, and my abandonment sunk again, and my loneliness,
and because being in this industry and being a celebrity
is super isolating in general, I start to want that
(25:08):
feeling of what I thought it was is my best
friend back, my happiest highest self was when we were connected.
It was the most it felt like it felt like
somebody loved me for real, not like a fan's telling
me I love you all over the place that never
resonated as real to me. So I remember getting running
(25:28):
right back to him, and I remember getting in the
car out of the airport and him laughing and saying
to me, look at my brand new watch, Babe. It
costs as much money, babe. Look at babe, I have
a new role as babe. You spent all that money
on therapy and I got a new watch, babe, But
you're still here with me, babe. Hamp babe, good choice, babe.
And I remember thinking to myself, It's true. I have
(25:49):
spent as much money as that watches trying to get
over this person. And at the end of the day,
a therapist cannot They can guide you to the water,
but you have to drink, which is why I ended
up going to ball and getting out and trying other
sources to check in with myself. Mostly the disconnection was
the important part, but I had to get out of
it somehow, and therapy was just not working enough because
(26:12):
they can only tell you as much as they can
tell you, but you have to want the change, and
you have to be able to make the change when
you leave there. You can feel so empowered in the sessions,
but I found and that's for anybody that maybe is
in therapy, feeling that power and then leaving and going
right back. I found myself doing that for years.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yes, well, you're highlighting a really significant aspect of this,
which is the addictive nature. And I'm not using that
term in quotes. I'm talking about science, chemistry, what happens
in the brain. And we alluded to this earlier. But
just like when you use drugs or drink or gamble,
et cetera. And there's I'm sort of oversimplifying it, but
(26:53):
there's a version of a dopamine and a serotonin hit,
which is the feel good chemical inside of us. The
exact same thing happens during the reunification process with an abuser.
For all of the reasons that I was just describing
and more that we can go into if we find
the time, but it is the same process. And so
you're talking about literal detox I don't mean detalks and quotes.
(27:18):
You're talking about in part to truly get away from
an abusive relationship, you have to detox, which means you
have to be away from the person, and whatever that takes,
whether it's moving to another country or some curation of
resources amongst your community, can change from scenario to scenario,
of course, but that's what you're talking about. And in
(27:39):
the absence of true detox ie, not being with the person,
you're not going to be able to truly go away.
Why because your brain will seek the hit of the
serotonin dopamine time and time again in a very similar
way that an attic does. And so conceptualizing that way
first helps people understand as they're observing and thinking about
(28:03):
it from the outside, but also it helps people in
it perhaps think about resources in a different way. Who
specializes in this arena is going to be very useful.
But the curation of resources to help with removal, yesation
has to be incredibly robust, which I don't want to
end our time together. I know we're not almost done,
(28:24):
but without saying this, which is the final book, critical
piece that I'm thinking about around why people stay is
the fear of retaliation.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
And that's huge with Cassie.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Keep going, Yes, Empirically, empirically, data statistics The most dangerous
period for abuse victims is when they're thinking about leaving,
When they leave, and in the aftermath.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
The aftermath is a big one that we don't talk
about enough. The aftermath. You know, you can't get those
highs anymore, so you're dependent on You got to find
something for the high or you've got to be ripe
and ready for and change is not an easy thing
to just snap your fingers and go to. As you
get older, you learn that you have more control over
your brain than you think. But when you're younger and
(29:10):
you're still learning, I would look around anywhere and everywhere
for it. And unfortunately, specifically in Cassie's case, there were
so many things that there were so many addictions around
her that she had many things to overcome. It seems
like everybody's found had to find ways outside of puff
(29:30):
to move into, places to move into that would provide
their sense of self any more sense of self meaning
you can wake up and feel joy and happiness just
within yourself.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
So you're talking about two pieces. One is the internal
risk of the victim once they leave recklessly searching for
that high.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yes, for anyone that didn't understand what she had to
say in regards to being in fear of him, or
they didn't believe it, you can believe it after kid
Cutty's testimony. Those are two different people and the result
(30:16):
of both the two different statuses, two different relationships with
the man, and yet the common denominator and all of
it is force violence, extreme violence, and people not even
coming forward and wanting to tell on the person or
create a proper trail amongst the public of the events
and the behaviors out of fear of retaliation. So it
(30:39):
existed on all levels with him. Now, I want to
take you through before we finish the cross examination, so
we could kind of go over the way that the
defense team is kind of using a multi prong strategy
in regards to obviously the denial of the allegations they've
categorically denied them or learning I don't know, not so true.
(31:00):
They are attacking her credibility. We've seen that on the stand.
We've seen that with multiple witnesses, financial motivations, career opportunities, inconsistencies,
and testimony, continuing to seek the relationship with puff after
you've already gone over. While all of those would occur specifically,
(31:22):
a lot of people have issues with Don Hughes. What
are your thoughts on that she kind of got beaten
up during the Amber Johnny trial that left all of
us sitting on the edge of our seats because there
was such an admiration for Johnny Depp. Anyone that was
explaining her behavior that they, you know, some people felt
was didn't come off as sincere. Don Hughes took a
(31:44):
lot of heat when trying to explain that they have
made the criticism, specifically in this case, that she did
not interview Cassie, she did not interview Ditty, she has
not sat down with anyone involved in this, and she
does not know their personal records, health records, mental health records.
Is there some kind of is there something to say
for that defense, for that specific defense, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Mean I don't think we can out of hand dismiss
the truth that she didn't directly interview the victim or
the alleged perpetrator.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Would you be able to believe her in your profession
even if she hadn't done that.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
It's common practice. It happens all the time. I mean,
if you didn't know that, if you look at many
cases that are not high profile, there is often not always,
but often an expert brought in who has not had
access to anyone on the defense or anyone in the
prosecution side. So it's an argument that is utilized often,
and so it makes sense the defense would raise it,
(32:43):
and in my opinion, you would stipulate to that. Absolutely.
I'm not trying to suggest I have rights or the
alleged perpetrator. I clearly have not. And just like myself,
if you have expertise clinically anecdotally over many, many decades.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
You know you can you can have an educated opinion
on what's going on here, No question. They did say
she's only ever worked with victims, never with the abusers themselves,
so to get a full fair perspective of both sides,
they feel that would have been necessary. Do you agree
with that or no?
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Again, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as a truth,
but most, not all, but most clinicians that specialize in
domestic violence, and clinicians might might comment that this isn't
true for them, But most, if not many, either treat
victims or perpetrators and don't necessarily treat both.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Because that why is that I would want a full perspective,
almost to if there is any saving grace on an
abuser's side, which, listen, I'm not a psychologist, so I
can say what everybody thinks. That sounds like bullshit to me.
But if I'm being fair and I'm wanting to stay
as professional as possible, I'd want to hear both sides
out and understand the mentality. I don't know that we
(34:04):
need to understand the mentality of an abuser, but is
there something to that.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I mean, there's sort of a professional reason, which is
less interesting that when you have areas of expertise, you
become hyper focused on that particular area. So if you're
an expert in working with domestic violence victims, you just
do a deep dive into that particular population, and how
you would treat them and conceptualize those cases would be
(34:29):
wildly different than how you would treat and conceptualize the
case of an abuser. So some of it is just
sort of professional trajectory and really focusing on a particular
area of expertise, which many clinicians do, including myself, on
various topics. Like a clinician might say, I'm an expert
in trauma and that's sort of all I do. I
don't really do specifically depression anxiety, even though those are
(34:52):
aspects of trauma, for example. So it's not unheard of
in my world to focus on one or two arenas
and have it be your area of focus. You, as
a clinician treating victims have besides someone who only treats
or also treats perpetrators or alleged perpetrators, You have as
(35:15):
much insight as possible relative to the normal practitioner into
the world of and the patterns of abusers. So while
you might not work directly with them, you have a
lot of anecdotal and clinical data from your work with victims,
or collaborative efforts with all of the people involved.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Or even your overall understanding of abuse in general. You
maybe don't even have to specifically work with either side
and your profession. You have enough information to understand the patterns,
and unfortunately, what people don't realize is these patterns are
pretty common and pretty standard and pretty repetitive when it
comes to every case. There are certain things that thread
through even that if you feel two cases are completely different.
(35:57):
Now question, is it possible that somebody could make up
and lie about everything that they're experiencing and an abuser
could be wrongly accused. Do you see that happening a
lot or is it very rare?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
I would say it's somewhere in the middle. I don't
think it happens a lot in like clinical and anecdotal experience.
That's quite a thing to put yourself through to come
out as a victim and have it not be true.
And there are other psychological factors going on. If that's
the case, it's not unheard of. It hasn't never played
out double negative, but so it occurs less than occasionally
(36:38):
a pretty small amount, very small amount. And in this case,
in the ditty case, there is a myriad of it
appears of collaborating evidence that's been submitted in court in
terms of eyewitnesses and texts and videos, etc. That suggests
this isn't the case, But yes, it has a.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Before Okay, So question, last question for anyone out there
right now, if I could revisit many me and anyone
out there that is currently in this in this situation,
or they're identifying or feeling very triggered by what they're seeing, obviously,
in my opinion, I would suggest look around you and
(37:20):
see how recognizable the things you're seeing in front of
you or looking at in front of you, if they're
mirroring anything that you're experiencing currently around you, even people
that speak about it in a certain way, I would
pay attention to that as well as I want your
advice to anyone out there that's potentially in a situation
(37:42):
like that. There some is there something that I could
have heard or anyone that has been in this could
have heard that could have made us feel like there
was a walkable path to get there sooner than we did.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yes, And I'm going to deliberately over simplify i M
answer because anyone in this position is completely overwhelmed and
has their nervous system triggered, and their inability to think
or consider options is limited, if almost non existent. So
my piece of advice, my first edict is tell a
(38:17):
safe other, Tell a safe other. If you can just
do that, If you can just do that, it opens
up the door for your experience to be mirrored back
to you as the reality of what it is, and
for resources to begin to be curated.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
And also, can you please give the safe other who
has somebody come to them and say that to them
a great directive to help them because sometimes a lot
of safe others don't know how to respond, and maybe
we can help safe others out as well.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
So if you hear this information error on the side
of believing and say that out loud.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Say that again for the keep Seats doc.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
If you are the safe other, err on the side
of believing and say it, I believe you and that
is not okay. Those are the two things that you
should say, I believe you. It is your right to notice,
your right to say it's not okay, and then I
will help you. And a safe other should not know
(39:28):
how they should go about helping someone because it's not
their area of expertise. But find someone who does. You
talked to your primary care physician, Google therapist in your
neck of the woods that specializes in domestic violence.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Could someone do if they had no money and they
had no healthcare and they had somebody that told them
I believe you. But what it could be a next
step for somebody that does not have access to a doctor,
a primary care physician, or can afford to go to
somebody that they google.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
In most cities, there are free or incredibly low fee
clinics in most cities. If you're in a very rural
part of the country that might not be true, but
perhaps the safe Other can take you to the nearest one.
So googling free and or a low fee clinic for
mental health will get you in front of a provider
(40:26):
or a clinician that can start to help you curate resources.
There are safe houses also for domestic abuse survivors in
various cities, again not in the smaller ones, but that's
another thing that your safe other can help you find.
Is there a resource locally or somewhere that you can
commute to as a first step.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Thank you so much. I have enjoyed this conversation with you,
doctor Hillary so much. You're so impressive. Obviously you know that,
but I think this was an important conversation to have
for people out there that are very triggered by this
or experiencing it personally, and for those of you who
haven't to truly leave space for the stories that you
(41:08):
will continue to hear during this trial and for those
that you're hearing around you. Be that safe person for
somebody and show up because this is something that really
needs to start being mended on a larger scale. Thank
you so much, doctor Hillary. Really appreciate you. Taking the
time with me today to discuss this.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Thanks for having me, and thanks for your bravery and
sharing your story.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
All right, guys, tune into another episode of Amy and
TJ presents Aubrey O'Day covering the Ditty Trial.
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