November 23, 2025 • 29 mins
Kathy and DeAnna are taking over and letting us hear their girl chat! Kathy is spilling all the disastrous details of a long-distance date that crashed and burned, and DeAnna is celebrating a birthday as a single divorcee!
What has Kathy learned from this recent dating situation gone wrong, and does DeAnna have a new man in her life??
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
iHeart podcasts, bring you the ultimate Summer of love Tree.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
This is famously Available.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, everybody, welcome to Famously Available. I am one of
your dating besties, Dianna Stagliano, and I'm here with my
very good new dating.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Bestie, Kathy Swarts. I'm right here with you. So excited
to catch up with you on girl chat. What's going
on in your life? And happy belated birthday, dear, thank.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
You, my darling. This is so exciting because usually it's
me and Ben and listen, I really love Ben. I
think he's a gem, a true gem. But like, how
much fun is it that you and I can just
talk girl to girl about all of the things that
are going on. This makes me so very happy.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Kathy, so let's jump in. Tell me what's been going
on with you and then I'll tell you all the
fabulous and it's not that's been going on in my life?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh my god, what is going on? Okay? I just
turned forty four, I know.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Spring child. You look fabulous.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thank you, darling, Thank you so many good things. I
have so much joy and peace in my life right now.
My birthday was amazing and it was just super low key.
It was just me and my friends and the women
that I love. And it's not my first single birthday,
but I will tell you this, it's the first birthday
(01:24):
that I didn't drink alcohol, because as you know, I
don't drink anymore. And it was one of the best
birthdays that I have ever had. I just had such
a wonderful week being surrounded by great people. I got
to do some filming with some bachelor bachelorettes. Really that
was delightful. And I just I have many wonderful surprises.
Thank you guys for sending me some Crumble cookies. I
(01:46):
enjoyed every last bite. And I have tons of flowers
which just bring me so much joy.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
So wait, let me ask you if I mean I
remember back you've been single? How long?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Several years?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Okay, so it was? It was it felt weird to you?
Did it feel weird to spend your birthday? You said
with people that love you? And I'm assuming people you love.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
All women, all women. I will tell you that a
man sent me the most beautiful bouquet of flowers.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Oh wow, Okay, well look at all those beautiful oh gorgeous.
Well I want to hear, I want to hear about
that man, But I you know my birthdays. I'm a
few years older than you, the as everyone knows. But
I remember when my husband died and we're coming upon Christmas.
Holidays I will say are still tough for me. Birthdays
(02:36):
are tough because it's just marching through another year, another
trip around the sun, which I'm thrilled it beats the
alternative for sure. But I have trouble celebrating my birthday
being made the center of attention because I don't have
anyone to share it with. Yes, my children, I love them.
(02:56):
They always make a big deal about me for my birthday,
but I still my husband made such a big thing
about my birthday, so it still feels empty to me.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I love that for you, Kathy, though, because you were
married for so many years. What a great example and
a way for him to set the stage for this other,
really wonderful part of your life. Like you have a
whole other life to live, Kathy, which is really beautiful.
And when you do find someone and you are dating someone,
they do have big shoes to fill, right, What a
(03:29):
beautiful story that you had this man. And that's not
dismissing that there are ups and downs and marriages and relationships.
But what a wonderful gift that you had this man
that made you feel so loved and so beautiful and
celebrated you on your birthday. Like that's really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, you know, birthdays have always been a big thing
in our family. So yes, it's great. It's great to
be celebrated by your children and your friends. And every
year somebody has a party for me to go out
for dinner, the cake, the whole thing, and it's always fun.
But I never forget those fun birthdays. And then now
here we are, you know, barking up the tree of
(04:05):
Thanksgiving and Christmas. And I have to say, when I
was on the Bachelor, everyone said, you know, I was
crazy for Christmas, and literally my house is already decorated.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
I saw your Instagram going through all of your little
Santa clauses, little keys, I saw.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, well I made I need appointed a lot of
those since that you know represents years of work. But
I love but I will be I'll be honest, It's
very difficult for me to decorate to get through the
holidays because I love my family and I love this celebration.
But I always I dreaded in a way as well,
(04:42):
and I think people who have lost spouses or been
through a divorce or lost to child loss. In general,
the holidays are tough for people, or at least for me,
but I think many people who have suffered loss, because
your mind goes automatically back to quote unquote better times
when your family was together, when you have that spouse.
(05:05):
So for me, putting up the tree and playing the
Christmas music, I'm going to cry that I did with
my kids and my husband. It's really hard. And I
don't know if that's hard for you, buddy, It is hard.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So much, and I am so glad we were able
to do this today because I just, I just genuinely
love you and your openness, and I love that we
are in two different walks of life, you know what
I mean. I believe I'm wise beyond my years, but
that's because of the thousands of dollars worth of therapy.
But it's neither here nor there. But I just relate
(05:39):
to you on so many levels. But what we are
going to do right now is we're going to give
two different perspectives, and I love that so so although
we have walked through similar things, which is both grief, right,
you walked through the physical loss of a loved one,
a spouse, and what I equate divorce to is grief.
(05:59):
I have had to do is mourn that relationship and
be app to bed.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, that's why d that's why not to interrupt, but
that's why I always say. People say, oh, Kathy, your
husband died by suicide. That must be the worst thing.
How do you move on? I always say the same thing.
Loss is loss, and your divorce, losing a child, losing
a spouse, losing a job, whatever the loss is, we
(06:25):
all have to learn to adapt and how to walk forward.
And in my case, I've done. I also have spent
thousands on therapy, but I'm glad I did because I
walk in the light now. I walk happily looking forward
to the next day of my life, you know, to
(06:46):
what surprises. I wake up grateful every day.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Absolutely, And I think you emanate that, Kathy. I really
think you do a great job of emanating that. And
you have a wonderful story of someone who has overcome grief.
So what I want to touch on here is that
we're very different in the sense that I don't I
really enjoyed my birthday as a single person I really
(07:10):
really grieved the loss of my marriage, and I put
that one to bed. There was when I was still
living in the same home with my ex husband and
my children. Those first were really hard because we were
still trying to pretend to be a family. It was
just that it was torture or the entire time. And
I don't feel that anymore. I feel, you know, it's
funny that we're doing this dating show because someone has
(07:35):
big shoes to feel for me, like really big shoes
to feel Kathy, because I'm very comfortable on my own.
I am not out seeking a relationship. If something lands
in my path and it is the right person and
it's really great, I will joyfully welcome that. I am
(07:56):
very secure on my own. I am very confident on
my own. My birthday as a single woman was amazing.
I woke up in a hotel after spending the day
with a bunch of women that I love, laughing and
being together, and I woke up with a heart full
of gratitude with the love that I have for these women.
(08:16):
What a beautiful experience we've all been the lead of
a television show. I looked around that room at these
women and just smiled because I thought, no one will
ever know what it has been like for us, what
a great group of women to be a part of.
And my heart was so flipping full, Kathy. And then
(08:37):
I got to come home, and I got to sit
in my own really clean house. Yeah, and I got
to take a nap. I got to meet a friend
in the afternoon for coffee, and then I got to
go to Trigger Jos and buy all my favorite things.
And then I got to come home and there were
cookies on my doorstep from Famously Available, and there was
the largest bouquet of flowers from a man that I
find attractive and I enjoy conversation with. But the truth
(09:00):
the matter is I spent my birthday the way that
I want to. I spent it with the women that
I love the most. Right seaking women, Kathy have put
on boots and trudged through the absolute mud with me
when I was at my lowest, and not one of them,
(09:21):
not one of them tossed me out like a bag
of trash because it was.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Too much right.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
This group of women that were here proved to me
that I'm not a broken little girl, that I am
worth loving.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
A couple of things you said I, first of all,
on the shoes to fill. No one's going to fill
my and nor do I want another man to fill
my husband's shoes. I'm looking for a new chapter in
my life. So that's maybe one difference, or maybe it
was just your tradition for but the other thing, where
I think my age is has helped me a little bit.
(10:05):
I don't a lot of people when when someone dies
by suicide, they'll say, you know, what did you do wrong?
I didn't do anything wrong, and I don't need when
you said, toss me out like yesterday's trash. I don't
need anyone to tell me my value. I have lived
a lot of life. I celebrate who I am every day,
(10:29):
and whether that's with men or women, I don't need
people to bolster me up. I need friends, I need support.
We all need that, but I don't. I don't let
anyone determine my self worth except for me, and I
think that comes I wasn't always that way. But but
it sounds like maybe your divorce was a little more
(10:51):
acrimonious than than some Maybe not. And if your ex
husband made you feel like a bag of trash, I'm
really sorry, because you are a wonderful woman, and I
think that's sad. So I hope that you can get
to a place where you can have a great birthday
by yourself or with your friends. But don't ever, I
would My advice that you're not asking for is don't
(11:13):
let any person ever make you feel like yesterday's news,
yesterday's trash, a bag of trash, anything that has that
negative pejorative connotation. Because you are a lovely woman. I've
gotten to know you. You're lovely, you're smart, you're charming, you've
got great kids, you have so much going in your life.
Having said all that, I don't need a man to
(11:36):
make me feel complete. I am complete just the way
I am. I would love to find someone. It will.
I think the relationship I'm looking for will absolutely look
different from my relationship with my husband. I mean, I
was married almost forty six years. We raised kids, we
moved homes, we built careers, all of those things that
(11:58):
I'm not looking to do now. But I will say
I ventured I was going to get into this. The
reason I asked you about your dating life, I had
a really bizarre I've had some dates, and as I
said to Ben when we talked, I struggle to find
men to date because my age belies my energy level,
(12:20):
and I have lots of energy to do fun things,
and I'm adventurous and I have a big heart, and
my heart, while it was shattered when my husband died,
it has grown and it's open and ready for the
next relationship. That is all a preamble to say that
for me, dating apps have not been great, which is
(12:41):
why I'm so excited about this opportunity, because people who
know me are going to set me up, hopefully on
these great dates. I had a very good friend who
I've known forty something years called me from the East
Coast and said, I think I have a guy for you,
and I said, okay, I was actually going to visit
them for a weekend. So that's when I met this guy,
(13:04):
and it was unbelievable. I thought, oh my gosh, you know,
this is my time. I've been through, kissed a lot
of frogs, all the things that we say when we're dating.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I remember you sharing yeah about him when we were
at the Jonas Brothers Concerts whatever a month or so
ago ago. I remember you were really excited.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I was because we talked on the phone and I
thought I can't. I learned a couple of things when
Ben asked what kind of guy I was looking for.
You know, I do want a guy who laughs and
loves adventure. This guy a little more circumspect, a little
more quiet, like my husband was dry since humor and
I So the thing I've learning is there's always lessons
(13:49):
to learn, no matter how old you are, no matter
how many men you date. This guy the red flag
for me was his wife died about seven months ago,
maybe eight months ago now, but she had had cancer
and had suffered for almost two years. And so I thought, okay,
he may not be ready to date, but we have
(14:12):
to be vulnerable. We have to put ourselves out there.
Men are not coming to our door and knocking. So
you know when you said, if I meet a man,
they're not going to come to your door, we have
to put the energy in. So I did and it
went great. And then he asked me to come back
for a five day four days, to go to a
(14:33):
football game with him, to go out for dinner with him,
to go to a shrimp a party, a neighborhood shrimp
oil or something, some you know, neighborhood gathering go to.
We had all these plans. I get back there, staying
with my friends again, and I'm there twenty minutes and
he tells me that he's dating a woman that he
(14:55):
met before me. Yeah, they'd had six glorious dates in
six days. And I just looked at him and I said,
why didn't you understand he was still calling me? He
was still he.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Had you still come to his home to visit?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yes, and I said so when he told me, I said,
why didn't you call me and tell me? And he
said because I thought we were dating? And I thought
I owed it to you face to face. And I said,
as kindly as I could, No, we weren't dating. This
weekend was to see if we were going to date.
(15:34):
And in that moment, I felt the woman everything he
told me he was looking for. He you know, he
said he liked that I was independent, he liked that
I have my own podcasts and that I do things
with bachelor. He said, I'm not looking for a woman
who needs me. I'm looking everything. We were so aligned.
So when he said that, I was stunned, and I said,
(15:56):
I wish you had called. It would have made so.
I spent four days with my friends who i've known
them for years. It was a lovely visit with them,
but I was so humiliated because all of the people
in that neighborhood. I know these people, I've known them
for years. They're saying, how's it going with them? You know?
So it was really hard and here so for me
at this age, and I was going to ask you,
(16:17):
if where you are in this? For me, every date,
every experience I have, I try to take a lesson
from and I always say things like, well, Kathy, you
know he he hadn't evolved, and not from the death
of his wife. He said he was ready to move on,
but he really wasn't. And I feel like I should
(16:39):
have I'm not being hard on myself, but I should
have said, he's in the candy store, I'm ale one
and I'm great chocolate. You know, I'm just European fabulous
chocolate chocolate. Thank you. But he's he's looking down at
Aisle six go and what else is there?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Ned They're not long lasting.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Right, My metaphor is exactly My metaphor is I want
to be the girl at the checkout line. I don't
want to be And so I think I was trying
to give him grace that maybe he was ready to
find his partner because she had had cancer. He told
me he was ready. But I've got to tell you
it was it was a gut punch because I just thought,
(17:23):
you know, you have to there has to be you
have to open your heart, you have to be vulnerable,
and really you have to be lucky. So it was rough.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Here's what came to mind for me is that you're
telling me that men don't change at any age.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I don't think they do. I really don't think they do.
People have asked me if you and I will tell you,
he asked me. And people can't believe this, but he
asked me, if things didn't work out with her, if
he could reach out to me in a month.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Absolutely not, absolutely not. I will be no one's second choice.
Absolutely not. I am not your learning experience. No.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
And then he said, well, could I call you? I've
listened to your podcast. You would give such great advice.
Could I call you? And I said, I said, I
don't think so, because I don't give dating advice to men.
I thought I was going to date.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Hey, Kathy, do you know what was a really hard
lesson for me?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Thank you is a complete sentence, Yeah, you're right, Well
thank you is even better.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, you know, I try to walk away with grace,
and I'm proud of myself the way I walked away
with that. But I think the lesson for me is
the same lesson for you. And that's why I want
to hear about your dating experience lately. I always say,
listen to what people do, men and women, not what
they say. Their actions will tell you who they really are.
(18:47):
And that's what made it hard with this guy. His
words and action. I mean, guy can really kiss, you know.
He had his arms around me even the day that
he told me so his actions and his words blide
what he said to me, and that was so difficult,
and I thought, oh boy, men don't change. That's kind
of what I thought I'm in. This is something I
(19:08):
would have to deal with until I'm lucky enough to
meet the right one.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
My gosh, thank you so much for sharing that. And
I just let me say, like woman to woman, friend, friend,
someone who cares about you, I'm really sorry that you
had to go through that. I there's a million different ways,
and we can run the gamut here of there's a
million different ways that he could have handled that stop
letting you travel to see him and not tell you
(19:32):
that was just poor choice, man, or choice, poor choice.
When you're doing long distance, there has to be this
open means of communication before you hop on an airplane
to go and see someone. By all means, you're right
save someone.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I have to be honest. If he called me. People
have said, if he calls you, you know, would you
talk to him. There's a part of me that wishes
he would call me because when he said, you know,
I'm going to start I'm going to date. I'm going
to date more women. Do you know what I said
to him? You should. You should date a lot of women,
and then you're going to realize that I was the
(20:09):
best woman you met me. You met me quickly and
too bad you didn't realize it, which I know sounds pompous, but.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Hey, listen, do you know what I'm going to tell you.
When he does call, don't answer the phone. There are
pieces of us that we have to listen to. Our gut.
It is literally our soul telling yeah purpose to put
us on the right path, and he's not it. Kathy.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I know, but I thought it was strange d when
he said to me when he said, you know, I'm
going to date. I can't remember if he asked me
if I was dating other men. But I always find
that a strange question when men do ask me that,
because I when I meet a man i'm interested in,
I want to I want to go down that road
(20:54):
and see if there's a relationship they're worth developing.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Okay, this is a question that I'm sitting in. I
am wondering, is that I am casually dating?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Well, I'm sorry getting flowers from a guy's casual dating.
I want his name. I need his name.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I will not give his name. I will not.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Are you saying that's casual.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
We are friends, we have known each other for some time.
We're friends of friends. We have decided a few weeks
ago that both of us are interested in something more
exploring what that is. He is older than me.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Bye, I'm much older.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I think about fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
He should be dating me.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
If it doesn't work, I'll hook up.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I remember. Excuse me? Did we just have the conversation?
I don't take somebody sloppy seconds.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
No, it's not sloppy seconds. It could be that he
is wonderful. He just wasn't right for me and he
could be really right for you. I don't see anything
wrong with that. What I'm getting at is there is
the age difference. I don't make rash decisions, Kathy. I
almost think things through obsessively, and most of that comes
(22:18):
from trauma. Divorce I have made it very clear has
been really, really awful for me. It was very trauadic.
I don't know that I want to get married again.
Living with someone again really terrifies me. All of those things,
and I realize those are my pieces to carry. And also,
in the same sentence, I'm telling you that I am
open to being with someone and hopefully finding a great
(22:41):
love of my life. So what I'm asking you is
I turned forty four, he's fifty, almost fifty nine. He's
like you, Kathy. He sees what he likes and he
wants it, and he's not messing around. He would like
to be seeing me, he would like to only be
(23:01):
taking me out, he would like to only be holding
my hand in public.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Have a rule, so I know what he wants, But
now I want to know what do you want?
Speaker 1 (23:09):
At a really hard time with public displays of affection,
really hard time with that?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Do you want to date other men? Are you tracted
enough to him to close down all other options?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I don't know. Here's where I'm scared, because we were
friends before. I teeter a very fine line of I
don't want to ruin a friendship.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Wait, I have to interrupt you. Think about it this way.
The person that you want to find, if he starts
out being your best friend, that is such a huge
component of a great relationship. You've already got that one
knocked out of the park. Think of it in a
positive way.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I think I have said this multiple times on the
podcast Kathy, is that I am a person who leads
with fear. I lead with fear. Most of my choices
in life. I lead in fear. And because I am
really great and overthinking, I can overthink overthinking. I am
constantly in a state of like, oh is this too much?
(24:07):
Is it not enough? Is this right? Is it not right?
I cannot live in the moment and just allow someone
to come into my life and treat me really great,
whether it works out in the long run or not.
I have to constantly be thinking, oh, well if I
kiss him then moving on to the next stage. What
if I'm not ready for the next age? What if
I just want to be friends. What if I just
think he's just really great friend and I don't find
him romantic. What if what if he's fifty eight and
he's an old man and I'm not there's the level
(24:30):
of sexual attraction is not there. I've never dated someone
that much older than me. I typically date. Maybe this
is my problem. Guys that are younger than me is
what I have always done. Okay, so let me lay
it out. If for anyone who is listening, rewinds to
the first episode and I'm telling Ben all of these
(24:52):
things that i want. I'm telling Ben, I want someone
who shows up for me. I want someone who makes
me feel safe. I want someone who dotes on me
and really gets to know me and has that emotional intimacy.
All of these things, right, What if this guy does
those things. He has proven over and over it again
in the last few weeks. He calls when he says
(25:13):
he's going to, he texts when he says he's going to,
He takes me out to dinner. He sent me the
most beautiful bouquet for my birthday.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Okay, so, d you put it out in the universe.
It's happening, and you know what I think this is
not that you're asking my opinion, but you know what
I think it is. You have been beaten up badly
in your marriage. Can I just say you deserve this guy.
Let yourself, let yourself enjoy the fact that someone really
(25:43):
wants to be with you. Don't sit to question it.
Why me? Why does he like me so much? I
don't deserve it? Why me? Because I think that's what
you're doing. I'm not a therapist, but you deserve And
again this is my age. I've learned that we all
deserve kindness and love and good care. And if this
(26:03):
guy is checking off your boxes, I would say you
are running with fear instead of opening your heart, being
vulnerable and say, hey, this is what what I've done
before hasn't worked. So this opportunity has come my way
and here he is, right, I'm going to give him
a chance, and if nothing else, d if nothing else,
(26:27):
he's going to remind you that there's good men out
there always, even if he's not the one. But right
now you seem like you're in handcuffs, emotional handcuffs. You're afraid.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I am. You know what the vision in my head,
and I've shared this with multiple people. Is that like
I have my claws in so deep in my own life,
I am I want control so bad that like my
knuckles a are white because I cannot. I just cannot
let go.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Because your life was out of control. I mean again,
I'm not a therapist, but it sounds like during your divorce,
your life was really out of control. And now you have,
in your words, a nice clean home to come home to.
It's your solace, it's your it's your protected place. And
you can control your life as much as you can
because you don't have to answer to somebody else right now.
(27:13):
And if you let somebody else in, then you're gonna
have to. And that's fear. It is.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
It is a lot of fear. I willingly said that
I'm not denying it.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I'm going to encourage you to give him a shot.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I am giving him a shot. I am making no
rash decisions whatsoever. I do worry about crossing a line
and never being able to go back. You know what
I mean that it will change our friendship forever, and
I do worry about that.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Can I just give you one? Let me just again?
At my age, I have some male friends, none of
which I would date. Actually, I've got one very good
male friend who we dated and we don't. We dated
and he didn't want to date me after you know,
after a while it didn't work out, but we're still
(27:57):
really good friends. So why not try this? Why not
see again? If you're if he knows you, he knows
already knows your fears, he knows you're if you're good
friends with this guy, he knows you already.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
He already brought up the podcast, Kathy, like like, oh,
he did well, I listened. I am not a liar.
That is not something that I am, and anyone that
has come in my direction, I make it very clear
that I'm doing this like I'm doing podcast It's a
great opportunity. I love podcasting, but it's also a great
opportunity to meet someone just like you. Right, And he
(28:33):
already was like, yeah, I mean I know that you're
doing this, but like I'd be lying if I said
I didn't want you going out with other guys an
to watch kissing anybody else. I don't watch you going
out with anybody else. What if you fall in love?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
So you didn't answer the question, how do you feel
about that? Do you still want to date? Other guys
or is that just a defense mechanism if you don't say,
I'm dating six guys, so none of them are really
that important if anything falls off the wagon. So what, Kathy?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I am having so much fun with this, but we've
got to take a pause. I think that there's I
think there's a lot more to dive in here.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
M
iHeart podcasts, bring you the ultimate Summer of love Tree.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
This is famously Available.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, everybody, welcome to Famously Available. I am one of
your dating besties, Dianna Stagliano, and I'm here with my
very good new dating.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Bestie, Kathy Swarts. I'm right here with you. So excited
to catch up with you on girl chat. What's going
on in your life? And happy belated birthday, dear, thank.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
You, my darling. This is so exciting because usually it's
me and Ben and listen, I really love Ben. I
think he's a gem, a true gem. But like, how
much fun is it that you and I can just
talk girl to girl about all of the things that
are going on. This makes me so very happy.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Kathy, so let's jump in. Tell me what's been going
on with you and then I'll tell you all the
fabulous and it's not that's been going on in my life?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh my god, what is going on? Okay? I just
turned forty four, I know.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Spring child. You look fabulous.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thank you, darling, Thank you so many good things. I
have so much joy and peace in my life right now.
My birthday was amazing and it was just super low key.
It was just me and my friends and the women
that I love. And it's not my first single birthday,
but I will tell you this, it's the first birthday
(01:24):
that I didn't drink alcohol, because as you know, I
don't drink anymore. And it was one of the best
birthdays that I have ever had. I just had such
a wonderful week being surrounded by great people. I got
to do some filming with some bachelor bachelorettes. Really that
was delightful. And I just I have many wonderful surprises.
Thank you guys for sending me some Crumble cookies. I
(01:46):
enjoyed every last bite. And I have tons of flowers
which just bring me so much joy.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
So wait, let me ask you if I mean I
remember back you've been single? How long?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Several years?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Okay, so it was? It was it felt weird to you?
Did it feel weird to spend your birthday? You said
with people that love you? And I'm assuming people you love.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
All women, all women. I will tell you that a
man sent me the most beautiful bouquet of flowers.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Oh wow, Okay, well look at all those beautiful oh gorgeous.
Well I want to hear, I want to hear about
that man, But I you know my birthdays. I'm a
few years older than you, the as everyone knows. But
I remember when my husband died and we're coming upon Christmas.
Holidays I will say are still tough for me. Birthdays
(02:36):
are tough because it's just marching through another year, another
trip around the sun, which I'm thrilled it beats the
alternative for sure. But I have trouble celebrating my birthday
being made the center of attention because I don't have
anyone to share it with. Yes, my children, I love them.
(02:56):
They always make a big deal about me for my birthday,
but I still my husband made such a big thing
about my birthday, so it still feels empty to me.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I love that for you, Kathy, though, because you were
married for so many years. What a great example and
a way for him to set the stage for this other,
really wonderful part of your life. Like you have a
whole other life to live, Kathy, which is really beautiful.
And when you do find someone and you are dating someone,
they do have big shoes to fill, right, What a
(03:29):
beautiful story that you had this man. And that's not
dismissing that there are ups and downs and marriages and relationships.
But what a wonderful gift that you had this man
that made you feel so loved and so beautiful and
celebrated you on your birthday. Like that's really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, you know, birthdays have always been a big thing
in our family. So yes, it's great. It's great to
be celebrated by your children and your friends. And every
year somebody has a party for me to go out
for dinner, the cake, the whole thing, and it's always fun.
But I never forget those fun birthdays. And then now
here we are, you know, barking up the tree of
(04:05):
Thanksgiving and Christmas. And I have to say, when I
was on the Bachelor, everyone said, you know, I was
crazy for Christmas, and literally my house is already decorated.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
I saw your Instagram going through all of your little
Santa clauses, little keys, I saw.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, well I made I need appointed a lot of
those since that you know represents years of work. But
I love but I will be I'll be honest, It's
very difficult for me to decorate to get through the
holidays because I love my family and I love this celebration.
But I always I dreaded in a way as well,
(04:42):
and I think people who have lost spouses or been
through a divorce or lost to child loss. In general,
the holidays are tough for people, or at least for me,
but I think many people who have suffered loss, because
your mind goes automatically back to quote unquote better times
when your family was together, when you have that spouse.
(05:05):
So for me, putting up the tree and playing the
Christmas music, I'm going to cry that I did with
my kids and my husband. It's really hard. And I
don't know if that's hard for you, buddy, It is hard.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So much, and I am so glad we were able
to do this today because I just, I just genuinely
love you and your openness, and I love that we
are in two different walks of life, you know what
I mean. I believe I'm wise beyond my years, but
that's because of the thousands of dollars worth of therapy.
But it's neither here nor there. But I just relate
(05:39):
to you on so many levels. But what we are
going to do right now is we're going to give
two different perspectives, and I love that so so although
we have walked through similar things, which is both grief, right,
you walked through the physical loss of a loved one,
a spouse, and what I equate divorce to is grief.
(05:59):
I have had to do is mourn that relationship and
be app to bed.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, that's why d that's why not to interrupt, but
that's why I always say. People say, oh, Kathy, your
husband died by suicide. That must be the worst thing.
How do you move on? I always say the same thing.
Loss is loss, and your divorce, losing a child, losing
a spouse, losing a job, whatever the loss is, we
(06:25):
all have to learn to adapt and how to walk forward.
And in my case, I've done. I also have spent
thousands on therapy, but I'm glad I did because I
walk in the light now. I walk happily looking forward
to the next day of my life, you know, to
(06:46):
what surprises. I wake up grateful every day.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Absolutely, And I think you emanate that, Kathy. I really
think you do a great job of emanating that. And
you have a wonderful story of someone who has overcome grief.
So what I want to touch on here is that
we're very different in the sense that I don't I
really enjoyed my birthday as a single person I really
(07:10):
really grieved the loss of my marriage, and I put
that one to bed. There was when I was still
living in the same home with my ex husband and
my children. Those first were really hard because we were
still trying to pretend to be a family. It was
just that it was torture or the entire time. And
I don't feel that anymore. I feel, you know, it's
funny that we're doing this dating show because someone has
(07:35):
big shoes to feel for me, like really big shoes
to feel Kathy, because I'm very comfortable on my own.
I am not out seeking a relationship. If something lands
in my path and it is the right person and
it's really great, I will joyfully welcome that. I am
(07:56):
very secure on my own. I am very confident on
my own. My birthday as a single woman was amazing.
I woke up in a hotel after spending the day
with a bunch of women that I love, laughing and
being together, and I woke up with a heart full
of gratitude with the love that I have for these women.
(08:16):
What a beautiful experience we've all been the lead of
a television show. I looked around that room at these
women and just smiled because I thought, no one will
ever know what it has been like for us, what
a great group of women to be a part of.
And my heart was so flipping full, Kathy. And then
(08:37):
I got to come home, and I got to sit
in my own really clean house. Yeah, and I got
to take a nap. I got to meet a friend
in the afternoon for coffee, and then I got to
go to Trigger Jos and buy all my favorite things.
And then I got to come home and there were
cookies on my doorstep from Famously Available, and there was
the largest bouquet of flowers from a man that I
find attractive and I enjoy conversation with. But the truth
(09:00):
the matter is I spent my birthday the way that
I want to. I spent it with the women that
I love the most. Right seaking women, Kathy have put
on boots and trudged through the absolute mud with me
when I was at my lowest, and not one of them,
(09:21):
not one of them tossed me out like a bag
of trash because it was.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Too much right.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
This group of women that were here proved to me
that I'm not a broken little girl, that I am
worth loving.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
A couple of things you said I, first of all,
on the shoes to fill. No one's going to fill
my and nor do I want another man to fill
my husband's shoes. I'm looking for a new chapter in
my life. So that's maybe one difference, or maybe it
was just your tradition for but the other thing, where
I think my age is has helped me a little bit.
(10:05):
I don't a lot of people when when someone dies
by suicide, they'll say, you know, what did you do wrong?
I didn't do anything wrong, and I don't need when
you said, toss me out like yesterday's trash. I don't
need anyone to tell me my value. I have lived
a lot of life. I celebrate who I am every day,
(10:29):
and whether that's with men or women, I don't need
people to bolster me up. I need friends, I need support.
We all need that, but I don't. I don't let
anyone determine my self worth except for me, and I
think that comes I wasn't always that way. But but
it sounds like maybe your divorce was a little more
(10:51):
acrimonious than than some Maybe not. And if your ex
husband made you feel like a bag of trash, I'm
really sorry, because you are a wonderful woman, and I
think that's sad. So I hope that you can get
to a place where you can have a great birthday
by yourself or with your friends. But don't ever, I
would My advice that you're not asking for is don't
(11:13):
let any person ever make you feel like yesterday's news,
yesterday's trash, a bag of trash, anything that has that
negative pejorative connotation. Because you are a lovely woman. I've
gotten to know you. You're lovely, you're smart, you're charming, you've
got great kids, you have so much going in your life.
Having said all that, I don't need a man to
(11:36):
make me feel complete. I am complete just the way
I am. I would love to find someone. It will.
I think the relationship I'm looking for will absolutely look
different from my relationship with my husband. I mean, I
was married almost forty six years. We raised kids, we
moved homes, we built careers, all of those things that
(11:58):
I'm not looking to do now. But I will say
I ventured I was going to get into this. The
reason I asked you about your dating life, I had
a really bizarre I've had some dates, and as I
said to Ben when we talked, I struggle to find
men to date because my age belies my energy level,
(12:20):
and I have lots of energy to do fun things,
and I'm adventurous and I have a big heart, and
my heart, while it was shattered when my husband died,
it has grown and it's open and ready for the
next relationship. That is all a preamble to say that
for me, dating apps have not been great, which is
(12:41):
why I'm so excited about this opportunity, because people who
know me are going to set me up, hopefully on
these great dates. I had a very good friend who
I've known forty something years called me from the East
Coast and said, I think I have a guy for you,
and I said, okay, I was actually going to visit
them for a weekend. So that's when I met this guy,
(13:04):
and it was unbelievable. I thought, oh my gosh, you know,
this is my time. I've been through, kissed a lot
of frogs, all the things that we say when we're dating.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I remember you sharing yeah about him when we were
at the Jonas Brothers Concerts whatever a month or so
ago ago. I remember you were really excited.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I was because we talked on the phone and I
thought I can't. I learned a couple of things when
Ben asked what kind of guy I was looking for.
You know, I do want a guy who laughs and
loves adventure. This guy a little more circumspect, a little
more quiet, like my husband was dry since humor and
I So the thing I've learning is there's always lessons
(13:49):
to learn, no matter how old you are, no matter
how many men you date. This guy the red flag
for me was his wife died about seven months ago,
maybe eight months ago now, but she had had cancer
and had suffered for almost two years. And so I thought, okay,
he may not be ready to date, but we have
(14:12):
to be vulnerable. We have to put ourselves out there.
Men are not coming to our door and knocking. So
you know when you said, if I meet a man,
they're not going to come to your door, we have
to put the energy in. So I did and it
went great. And then he asked me to come back
for a five day four days, to go to a
(14:33):
football game with him, to go out for dinner with him,
to go to a shrimp a party, a neighborhood shrimp
oil or something, some you know, neighborhood gathering go to.
We had all these plans. I get back there, staying
with my friends again, and I'm there twenty minutes and
he tells me that he's dating a woman that he
(14:55):
met before me. Yeah, they'd had six glorious dates in
six days. And I just looked at him and I said,
why didn't you understand he was still calling me? He
was still he.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Had you still come to his home to visit?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yes, and I said so when he told me, I said,
why didn't you call me and tell me? And he
said because I thought we were dating? And I thought
I owed it to you face to face. And I said,
as kindly as I could, No, we weren't dating. This
weekend was to see if we were going to date.
(15:34):
And in that moment, I felt the woman everything he
told me he was looking for. He you know, he
said he liked that I was independent, he liked that
I have my own podcasts and that I do things
with bachelor. He said, I'm not looking for a woman
who needs me. I'm looking everything. We were so aligned.
So when he said that, I was stunned, and I said,
(15:56):
I wish you had called. It would have made so.
I spent four days with my friends who i've known
them for years. It was a lovely visit with them,
but I was so humiliated because all of the people
in that neighborhood. I know these people, I've known them
for years. They're saying, how's it going with them? You know?
So it was really hard and here so for me
at this age, and I was going to ask you,
(16:17):
if where you are in this? For me, every date,
every experience I have, I try to take a lesson
from and I always say things like, well, Kathy, you
know he he hadn't evolved, and not from the death
of his wife. He said he was ready to move on,
but he really wasn't. And I feel like I should
(16:39):
have I'm not being hard on myself, but I should
have said, he's in the candy store, I'm ale one
and I'm great chocolate. You know, I'm just European fabulous
chocolate chocolate. Thank you. But he's he's looking down at
Aisle six go and what else is there?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Ned They're not long lasting.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Right, My metaphor is exactly My metaphor is I want
to be the girl at the checkout line. I don't
want to be And so I think I was trying
to give him grace that maybe he was ready to
find his partner because she had had cancer. He told
me he was ready. But I've got to tell you
it was it was a gut punch because I just thought,
(17:23):
you know, you have to there has to be you
have to open your heart, you have to be vulnerable,
and really you have to be lucky. So it was rough.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Here's what came to mind for me is that you're
telling me that men don't change at any age.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I don't think they do. I really don't think they do.
People have asked me if you and I will tell you,
he asked me. And people can't believe this, but he
asked me, if things didn't work out with her, if
he could reach out to me in a month.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Absolutely not, absolutely not. I will be no one's second choice.
Absolutely not. I am not your learning experience. No.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
And then he said, well, could I call you? I've
listened to your podcast. You would give such great advice.
Could I call you? And I said, I said, I
don't think so, because I don't give dating advice to men.
I thought I was going to date.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Hey, Kathy, do you know what was a really hard
lesson for me?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Thank you is a complete sentence, Yeah, you're right, Well
thank you is even better.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, you know, I try to walk away with grace,
and I'm proud of myself the way I walked away
with that. But I think the lesson for me is
the same lesson for you. And that's why I want
to hear about your dating experience lately. I always say,
listen to what people do, men and women, not what
they say. Their actions will tell you who they really are.
(18:47):
And that's what made it hard with this guy. His
words and action. I mean, guy can really kiss, you know.
He had his arms around me even the day that
he told me so his actions and his words blide
what he said to me, and that was so difficult,
and I thought, oh boy, men don't change. That's kind
of what I thought I'm in. This is something I
(19:08):
would have to deal with until I'm lucky enough to
meet the right one.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
My gosh, thank you so much for sharing that. And
I just let me say, like woman to woman, friend, friend,
someone who cares about you, I'm really sorry that you
had to go through that. I there's a million different ways,
and we can run the gamut here of there's a
million different ways that he could have handled that stop
letting you travel to see him and not tell you
(19:32):
that was just poor choice, man, or choice, poor choice.
When you're doing long distance, there has to be this
open means of communication before you hop on an airplane
to go and see someone. By all means, you're right
save someone.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I have to be honest. If he called me. People
have said, if he calls you, you know, would you
talk to him. There's a part of me that wishes
he would call me because when he said, you know,
I'm going to start I'm going to date. I'm going
to date more women. Do you know what I said
to him? You should. You should date a lot of women,
and then you're going to realize that I was the
(20:09):
best woman you met me. You met me quickly and
too bad you didn't realize it, which I know sounds pompous, but.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Hey, listen, do you know what I'm going to tell you.
When he does call, don't answer the phone. There are
pieces of us that we have to listen to. Our gut.
It is literally our soul telling yeah purpose to put
us on the right path, and he's not it. Kathy.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I know, but I thought it was strange d when
he said to me when he said, you know, I'm
going to date. I can't remember if he asked me
if I was dating other men. But I always find
that a strange question when men do ask me that,
because I when I meet a man i'm interested in,
I want to I want to go down that road
(20:54):
and see if there's a relationship they're worth developing.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Okay, this is a question that I'm sitting in. I
am wondering, is that I am casually dating?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Well, I'm sorry getting flowers from a guy's casual dating.
I want his name. I need his name.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I will not give his name. I will not.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Are you saying that's casual.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
We are friends, we have known each other for some time.
We're friends of friends. We have decided a few weeks
ago that both of us are interested in something more
exploring what that is. He is older than me.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Bye, I'm much older.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I think about fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
He should be dating me.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
If it doesn't work, I'll hook up.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I remember. Excuse me? Did we just have the conversation?
I don't take somebody sloppy seconds.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
No, it's not sloppy seconds. It could be that he
is wonderful. He just wasn't right for me and he
could be really right for you. I don't see anything
wrong with that. What I'm getting at is there is
the age difference. I don't make rash decisions, Kathy. I
almost think things through obsessively, and most of that comes
(22:18):
from trauma. Divorce I have made it very clear has
been really, really awful for me. It was very trauadic.
I don't know that I want to get married again.
Living with someone again really terrifies me. All of those things,
and I realize those are my pieces to carry. And also,
in the same sentence, I'm telling you that I am
open to being with someone and hopefully finding a great
(22:41):
love of my life. So what I'm asking you is
I turned forty four, he's fifty, almost fifty nine. He's
like you, Kathy. He sees what he likes and he
wants it, and he's not messing around. He would like
to be seeing me, he would like to only be
(23:01):
taking me out, he would like to only be holding
my hand in public.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Have a rule, so I know what he wants, But
now I want to know what do you want?
Speaker 1 (23:09):
At a really hard time with public displays of affection,
really hard time with that?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Do you want to date other men? Are you tracted
enough to him to close down all other options?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I don't know. Here's where I'm scared, because we were
friends before. I teeter a very fine line of I
don't want to ruin a friendship.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Wait, I have to interrupt you. Think about it this way.
The person that you want to find, if he starts
out being your best friend, that is such a huge
component of a great relationship. You've already got that one
knocked out of the park. Think of it in a
positive way.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I think I have said this multiple times on the
podcast Kathy, is that I am a person who leads
with fear. I lead with fear. Most of my choices
in life. I lead in fear. And because I am
really great and overthinking, I can overthink overthinking. I am
constantly in a state of like, oh is this too much?
(24:07):
Is it not enough? Is this right? Is it not right?
I cannot live in the moment and just allow someone
to come into my life and treat me really great,
whether it works out in the long run or not.
I have to constantly be thinking, oh, well if I
kiss him then moving on to the next stage. What
if I'm not ready for the next age? What if
I just want to be friends. What if I just
think he's just really great friend and I don't find
him romantic. What if what if he's fifty eight and
he's an old man and I'm not there's the level
(24:30):
of sexual attraction is not there. I've never dated someone
that much older than me. I typically date. Maybe this
is my problem. Guys that are younger than me is
what I have always done. Okay, so let me lay
it out. If for anyone who is listening, rewinds to
the first episode and I'm telling Ben all of these
(24:52):
things that i want. I'm telling Ben, I want someone
who shows up for me. I want someone who makes
me feel safe. I want someone who dotes on me
and really gets to know me and has that emotional intimacy.
All of these things, right, What if this guy does
those things. He has proven over and over it again
in the last few weeks. He calls when he says
(25:13):
he's going to, he texts when he says he's going to,
He takes me out to dinner. He sent me the
most beautiful bouquet for my birthday.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Okay, so, d you put it out in the universe.
It's happening, and you know what I think this is
not that you're asking my opinion, but you know what
I think it is. You have been beaten up badly
in your marriage. Can I just say you deserve this guy.
Let yourself, let yourself enjoy the fact that someone really
(25:43):
wants to be with you. Don't sit to question it.
Why me? Why does he like me so much? I
don't deserve it? Why me? Because I think that's what
you're doing. I'm not a therapist, but you deserve And
again this is my age. I've learned that we all
deserve kindness and love and good care. And if this
(26:03):
guy is checking off your boxes, I would say you
are running with fear instead of opening your heart, being
vulnerable and say, hey, this is what what I've done
before hasn't worked. So this opportunity has come my way
and here he is, right, I'm going to give him
a chance, and if nothing else, d if nothing else,
(26:27):
he's going to remind you that there's good men out
there always, even if he's not the one. But right
now you seem like you're in handcuffs, emotional handcuffs. You're afraid.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I am. You know what the vision in my head,
and I've shared this with multiple people. Is that like
I have my claws in so deep in my own life,
I am I want control so bad that like my
knuckles a are white because I cannot. I just cannot
let go.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Because your life was out of control. I mean again,
I'm not a therapist, but it sounds like during your divorce,
your life was really out of control. And now you have,
in your words, a nice clean home to come home to.
It's your solace, it's your it's your protected place. And
you can control your life as much as you can
because you don't have to answer to somebody else right now.
(27:13):
And if you let somebody else in, then you're gonna
have to. And that's fear. It is.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
It is a lot of fear. I willingly said that
I'm not denying it.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I'm going to encourage you to give him a shot.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I am giving him a shot. I am making no
rash decisions whatsoever. I do worry about crossing a line
and never being able to go back. You know what
I mean that it will change our friendship forever, and
I do worry about that.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Can I just give you one? Let me just again?
At my age, I have some male friends, none of
which I would date. Actually, I've got one very good
male friend who we dated and we don't. We dated
and he didn't want to date me after you know,
after a while it didn't work out, but we're still
(27:57):
really good friends. So why not try this? Why not
see again? If you're if he knows you, he knows
already knows your fears, he knows you're if you're good
friends with this guy, he knows you already.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
He already brought up the podcast, Kathy, like like, oh,
he did well, I listened. I am not a liar.
That is not something that I am, and anyone that
has come in my direction, I make it very clear
that I'm doing this like I'm doing podcast It's a
great opportunity. I love podcasting, but it's also a great
opportunity to meet someone just like you. Right, And he
(28:33):
already was like, yeah, I mean I know that you're
doing this, but like I'd be lying if I said
I didn't want you going out with other guys an
to watch kissing anybody else. I don't watch you going
out with anybody else. What if you fall in love?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
So you didn't answer the question, how do you feel
about that? Do you still want to date? Other guys
or is that just a defense mechanism if you don't say,
I'm dating six guys, so none of them are really
that important if anything falls off the wagon. So what, Kathy?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I am having so much fun with this, but we've
got to take a pause. I think that there's I
think there's a lot more to dive in here.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
M
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