misSPELLING x Miss Understood: Rachel Uchitel Tells All - cult, scandal survival

When ‘Wayward’ hit Netflix, Rachel Uchitel couldn’t believe what she was seeing…because she’d lived it. In this revealing conversation, she tells Tori about the abuse, mind games, and trauma she endured at CEDU, the “troubled teen” school that inspired the show. They also dive into love, karma, and what it really takes to reclaim your story when the world thinks it already knows who you are.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Miss Spelling with Tory Spelling and iHeartRadio podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi miss Hi. So do we just start talking or
are you going to start talking? Oh? Okay, we're just
friends here talking. Love it.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm misspelling, you're misunderstood. You know it makes.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Sense, that's right, that's right. I love the name. Thank you,
and I'm I'm really honored to uh that you guys
reached out to me. So thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Oh my gosh, well thank you for doing this. And gosh,
I feel like it's like a first date. I feel
like I'm supposed to warm you up, like leave me
up before I jump in.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
You're like, okay, well, no, you don't have to. I'm
I feel like, you know because you have been on
TV for so long. I feel like I know you right,
and I followed your story and I'm someone that I
don't know if you followed a little bit of mine
or whatever, but I feel like you probably know me
a little bit already, and I know.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
I know the public story right about you, which everyone
knows public stories about me. I take all of that
with a grain of salt, right, But yes, but you
look beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Thank you? So do you? Thank you? Where are you?
I'm in La. Where are you. I'm in Palm Beach, Florida.
Oh I was.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
I was in Florida last year in the Everglades.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Oh okay, you know, I've never been to the Everglades.
I just remember the flight that went down in the Everglades.
So I always think of those people that died in
the plane crash. Do you know what I'm talking about? Nope?

Speaker 1 (01:49):
And I'm terrified of flying and I'm glad I knew
nothing about that before.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
I'm sorry. Well, that's what I think of when I
think of the Everglades, because they all went down, and
they I don't think I they don't think they ever
found the plane and it went straight down and they
were all well obviously they were dead, but probably by alligators.
But I digress. Florida is beautiful. Palm Beaches is beautiful. Yes, yes,
so many people moved here. I moved here from New

(02:14):
York City a couple of years ago, and I'm so
happy that I did. I was. I felt like I
was stuck in New York, you know, like listen, I
was born in Alaska. I moved to New York City
when I was five, and I've lived there essentially forever.
With the exception of going to college and a couple
stints here and there when I lived in LA But

(02:34):
you know, I really felt like I didn't know what
I was doing with myself, and I couldn't meet anyone,
and I was struggling with my ex husband and figuring
out how a co parent with my daughter. It was
always a struggle, and I just didn't feel like I
had a village there, right, And everyone in New York
City lives in apartments, so they're all essentially very alone.

(02:55):
I don't know how to describe it more than that,
but I feel like the only you have this sense
of coming that everyone is essentially alone, because you could
look at your apartment and see that everyone is just
watching TV or on a computer and not feel so
bad about it. But I was so happy when I
finally said, you know what, I'm done with this. I
have to start over, and I moved to Florida. I
started my podcast. I met a guy who I'm now

(03:18):
engaged to say congratulations. See, my daughter is like thriving
at school. She's like the captain of her volleyball team,
and so it's it's really been amazing. I just I'm
really happy that I did it.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Wow, maybe I need to move my kids to Florida.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, sometimes you know what I mean, You've
got to get uncomfortable and the scariest part is just
doing something different and new. But sometimes when you make
that change, you're like forced to do things differently. And
it really it did work for me.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Make yourself uncomfort I mean, you've been through a gazillion uncomfortable,
unfortunate things. What do you feel like was keeping you stuff? Energetically?
It's not just New York.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, no, no, I agree, I think that energetically. I listen,
I have dealt with a bunch of shame, I think,
and I think that really is the underlying feeling for
me that I felt stuck about. You know, after I've
been in a couple very public events in life, one being,

(04:27):
you know, when I was twenty six, my fiance was
killed in the World Trade Center and my face was
on the cover of every single newspaper in a shot
of me looking for him. And then ten years later
I was involved in one of the biggest international sex
scandals of our time, I guess you would say. And
so I was on the cover of a lot of
newspapers and I felt like everyone thought they knew me,

(04:50):
And I wonder if you understand this feeling, But like
I so crave to be known, Like I crave for
someone to know what I like to drink, why I
get upset, what makes me happy? Be those things authentically?
Know you, yeah, authentically, And no one knew me, like
everyone acted like they knew everything about me, and yet
I never felt more alone or misunderstood, and that very

(05:13):
much stuck with me. And I felt stuck because of it,
and so I would try to change the narrative by
doing other things. Because I was Rachel. You could tell
Comma Tiger Wood's mistress, Rachel. You could tell Comma whatever
someone wanted to fill in. And it was really hard
for me because I was I was a person before,

(05:34):
I'm a person after, and that, quite frankly, is the
most it's the least interesting thing about my life. And
so you know, I was trying to fill in that
Comma with other things. I did some reality TV stuff,
you know, I opened up a store which won all
these awards, but people would come in and see my

(05:57):
name on the business car and be like, oh my god,
you have the same name as that girl who was
blah blah blah, and I'm like, I am that girl,
you know, and then it was like this awkward. So
it was like I kept trying to get away from something.
But I with listen, health and decades of time, I realized,
you know, you can't run away from your past, but

(06:18):
you also don't have to be defined by it. And
you know, I had to learn how to live in
the moment and just be like, Okay, here's something that
happened in my life, but it doesn't make me who
I am. And I spent a lot of time feeling embarrassed, shameful, scared,

(06:39):
not worthy, and I didn't know how to get out
of that. And I think just being stuck there in
New York is something that you know, I felt like
I had to do because I didn't nowhere else to
go and I didn't know what to try. Plus I
had a daughter, and as you know, that can make
it really hard to just up and leave because I

(07:01):
had a parenting agreement and I couldn't do it, so
I had to go through the courts and all that.
But anyways, you know, that's why I think I felt stuck.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
When you talk about how people kind of what you're
affiliated with what.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
You're quote unquote known for in the public.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
I'm curious, why do you refer to it as one
of the biggest sex scandals?

Speaker 2 (07:25):
I was.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
I was surprised to hear you refer to as a
sex scandal.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Really, what would you refer to it as relationship? Well,
I'm not talking about my mind part of it. I'm
talking about in the world of scandals. I think it's
known as one of the biggest sex scandals because.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
In public affairs what it mean I guess.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
So, but he was he was involved with, you know,
twenty five different people that eventually came out and same
thing with like the Monica Lewinsky, even though it was
one or two or three whatever Clinton had, I don't know.
I would have just called it sex scandal because it
was so much. I wouldn't call it a relationship scandal.
I mean with me, I would not call it a

(08:12):
sex scandal. But I'm just making a general reference of.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
What what would you refer to it as well?

Speaker 2 (08:19):
A sex scandal because that's what it was within the world,
Within my life, it was a mistake. It was something
that I did that was that I feel terrible about that.
I listen. It made me very clear about boundaries. I
don't date married men. I will tell you something. I've
never cheated on anyone in my life, Like it's just
not who I am. But I've definitely been the other woman.

(08:42):
And I'm not making any of that right at all.
I'm just saying I am a relationship person. I don't
have one night stands. I definitely am about connecting with someone.
And yes, and I went through something in the past
where I, I guess I chose to connect with people

(09:03):
who are unavailable. I mean, it wasn't the first person
I had been with who who was not emotionally available
or you know, legally available. I guess because they were married.
And I feel terrible about it, but not because the
world has a problem with it, but because of the
woman that was hurt. So at this point, like I

(09:24):
only feel like I've only ever owed an apology to
one other person, you know, so, but at the end
of the day, I feel like it was one other person. Yeah,
to one other person, to to the woman involved.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Understood, And do you feel like I guess I'm trying
to connect with you because I when I met my
soon to be ex husband, we were both married.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Oh right, I forgot. Yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
I've been in that seat before and ours worked out
until it didn't work out, which is now people always
say to me, oh, that's karma. You know you were
with the married man and like then he cheated on
you at some point because my husband there was infidelity scandal.
I guess, and yeah, do you do you believe in

(10:23):
karma when it comes to that stuff?

Speaker 2 (10:25):
I mean karma, that's a whole other topic. I think.
Do I believe in karma? I believe that people don't change.
I believe that there are patterns that people fall into.
But I think if they do the work and understand
why they have those patterns, they're able to control them.
You know. So karma. Do I think something bad is

(10:46):
going to happen to someone because they did something like
I made a mistake. Do I think I deserve like
terrible karma because of it? No? Do I think Tiger
deserves terrible karma because he made the choices he made? No?
I think we learned what lessons from it. Do I
think because you were a mistress? I guess at one point,
does that mean eventually your husband that you took away

(11:09):
from someone else should cheat on you and you should
feel the same way. No, I don't think that that
is how it should work, and I don't believe that
that's how it does work. But I do think that
things can come full circle because of lessons. So whether
or not your ex or soon to be X whatever
he is now, came to learn that. Listen, I've gotten
away with it in the past. People have chosen to

(11:32):
stay with me or it's worked out because it worked
out with you. You know in the past that it's okay
to do it. So that's what I believe can recycle
itself within energy. But I don't believe that you deserve
any sort of hurt because you may have hurt someone
in the past, hopefully you know. Listen, there are all
sorts of reasons you obviously at the time thought you

(11:52):
loved each other. I'm completely putting words in my mouth
because I don't know the situation, but you ended up
marrying him, so you thought you were in love with him,
and vice versa. And by the way, I'm not a
marriage counselor, but I will say just because it doesn't
work decades later, like how long were you married?

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Eighteen years?

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Five kids? Five kids with him. Yes, okay, No, it
did work. It did work, And just because it's ending,
and I have no idea of your emotional state or anything,
but I'm just saying it's got to be difficult because
you spent all this time with someone who was like
a witness to your life and went through a lot
of things with you, and you share children, so he
will be in your life forever. But it does not

(12:32):
mean it didn't work. It just means that now you've
outgrown that and you will move on to something else.
And even though that's hard, it's more hard because it's
like a hard habit to break, you know, like you're
so used to that familiarity and that happiness of a family,
of that person knowing you best, and sometimes though you
got to rinse that off of you and start fresh

(12:54):
and have someone really love you for who you are now,
not who you were eighteen years ago. So that's my feeling.
It I like that. I like all of that.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Okay, can we can we talk about Wayward now?

Speaker 2 (13:07):
Oh my god? Yes, have you watched it?

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Don't tell me the ending. I haven't gotten the whole thing.
My eight year old I can't watch with and he's
always in my room and so I have to like
sneak watch it.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
What episode are you on? I am on four four Okay,
So for people listening that don't know, Wayward is the
number one new Netflix docuseriies right or series whatever it's
called limited scripted series. Yeah, that's out. And it was
directed by someone named Mae Martin who apparently had a

(13:45):
friend who went through something similar. So it is fictional
but based on a true story okay, about a troubled
teens school is essentially what it's about. And the headmaster
who is kind of awful. So I'm so happy you
brought it up because I just.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Played and who is brilliant.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Brilliant by the way, she's so good and scary and
all the things.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
And now they did a twist on it though it's
not like a straightforward there's it's horror, it's thriller. It's
what is omnipresence? Now I don't know like that.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah, so they have they they And by the way,
I went through this on my own podcast yesterday where
I just talked about my experience. So again, for people listening,
I went to this school. I mean it to me.
It has given me such chills to have watched it.
A content creator sent me something where they had said

(14:45):
that the coincidences between what they were watching on Wayward
were very you know, everything was very similar to what
I had talked to them, talked about two years ago,
very briefly in an interview I did with them, this
is how you found This is how I found out
about the show. So that I watched it, and I
sat there with my fiance and we watched it, I

(15:06):
guess over a course of two nights, and I tory
when I tell you, I was going through like total
post traumatic stress disorder watching it. I was like, wait,
that's not real. But what they mean by that is
this So they call something the ascent phase, or they
talk about leaps, or they you know, in the background,
they're all cutting wood. I don't know if you remember,

(15:27):
they're all outside and they're chopping wood and cutting wood. Okay,
So I was like, and I would pause it, and
this poor guy, you know, because he's like, he has
no idea what's coming out of my mouth and I
can't get the words out quickly enough to explain. Okay,
well what they're doing here. I know why they're doing that,
because it's it's good for TV. But what really happened

(15:47):
was this. And you know, I've tried to tell the
story of what it was like to go to c
DO for so many years. What does c DO stand
for c Do? It's ce DU and they told it
stood for see yourself and do something with it. And
there's a moment where Tony Collette or excuse me, where
the headmaster hands a pamphlet over to the kid who's

(16:11):
about to go to the school and it says whatever
the name of the school is, sall fines, see yourself
and really do something with it. And I just about
fell off my bed and I said, the person that
they're consulting with on this film has to have gone
to see DO because no one would have known that.
So that was the first moment. And then so se
DO was the school in Running Springs, California, and we

(16:34):
always the big saying see yourself and do something with it. Okay,
what I came to find out about ten years ago
it really stood for Charles E. Ddric University. Charles Ddrich
was a man who started a cult called the Synanon
Cult based in California, and it was created for people
who were addicts and he would put them through this. Really,

(16:57):
some people call it terrorizing, some people call it io
and a spiritual awakening. But they really had to essentially
shake you until you understood that you were not yourself
and you had to get these demons out of you
and start over essentially. So that's where this came from.
And now I was in the seventies, correct, I was
in the seventies. And the premise behind it is to

(17:19):
tear yourself down, get all the dirt off you, so
to speak metaphorically, and then build yourself back up with
the love and support of the people around you. So
it's part AA. You know, they try to get you
to tell your story all the time and call you
out on stuff and so anyways, to make the long
story short, I later on, I mean we're talking decades
later because I was at the school from when I

(17:41):
was thirteen to just a month shy of my seventeenth birthday.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Do you mind me jumping in from the beginning?

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Can you talk about why you felt you were sent
to this school?

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah. So the school was for at the time, mostly
people who were having a lot of problems with their parents. Obviously,
it was not a ton of drug users at all.
It was kids from twelve and a half to eighteen.
Very few hit eighteen. Once you were eighteen, you were

(18:22):
allowed to leave on your own, so that sort of
teen group. And for me, I had fought a lot
with my mother. My parents were divorced when I was little.
I lived with my mother. She was always working then
had a boyfriend at night, like was never home. I
was raised by my housekeeper and we just fought all
the time. I hated her. She essentially hated me to

(18:43):
this day. We really have a very terrible relationship. And
she was very resentful of me, thank you, and made
my life a living hell. And I was an only child,
and I acted out. I mean I would listen, I
was scared, but I will admit to you, like there
was a time when I had like coffee, it was

(19:03):
not hot, Okay, I promise it was not hot, but
she was yelling at me, and I threw it at
her and got on her arm, and she of course
called She called the police and said that I burnt her.
They could tell that I didn't, so they didn't arrest me.
You know, there there are times like that that like
we would get into these like crazy fights when I
was eleven twelve years old, and it was like very volatile, okay, like.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Being physical or just emotional.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
No, no, no, not physical. I mean listen, when I
was little, I think it was our generation. She would
hit me with a hairbrush. But if we ever did
that now, I think we would get arrested. Right, But
I think that's how everybody parented back then. And my
parents were divorced. She she was by herself, so that's
how she disciplined me. And so where was your dad
during this? My dad lived when my parents got divorced.

(19:50):
He stayed and anchored Alaska. So okay, and she moved
you to New York, New York. That's where they were from.
They moved to Alaska. They started cable television there. Totally random,
other story. But then he stayed there and then she
moved back to New York with me, and so I
was sent there because she started to send me to
a therapist. I would sit in a therapist office for

(20:12):
an hour twice a week and not speak, and they
would try to have me draw, play games, do all
these things, and I literally would not talk. I just
felt like no one understood me, and they were trying
to label me that something was wrong, and I just
was so angered by that. And I was I think
as a kid, you know, you're like ten to eleven
years old and you're just like my mom sucks. Everyone

(20:36):
else's family is married, they all are happy, and I
just hate my life. And I was always punished, you know,
always in trouble, and so it just.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
I was in school because I know they refer a
lot to school in Wayward and how they're doing bad
at school they get sent.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
So yeah, so I got in trouble. Like I didn't
want to go to school. I was truant, like I
would I would kind of not go to school. I remember, listen.
I had a really good voice back then, and I
love to sing, and I remember the head master coming
to me and saying, we want to make you the
lead in the Gilbert and Sullivan you know play whatever

(21:14):
it was, but you have to come to school. And
I loved singing, so that got me to school. But
a couple of times I would go and I would
stay at home with I would spend a night at
my teachers' homes. I don't remember why. I think nowadays
that would be very strange, but they were more of
like a family to me than my own family. But
I was struggling in school. I was terrible at Latin.

(21:35):
I remember, like I had to get a tutor, like
just I was not terrible at Latin so hard. Yeah,
I was having a hard time. But it wasn't like
I was a bad kid. I went to a private
school in New York City. It was very hard to
get in trouble there. Like, you know, I really I
would tell you I really wasn't that bad of a kid.
I just really did not get.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Along with my mom so and shed no point did
she ever say, you know what, I'm just going to
send you back your dad and you can live with him,
because I can't deal with you.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
She hated my father more than she disliked me, so
I think that would have been considered winning. And she
didn't like me to even communicate with him. So no,
that wasn't even an option. But the housekeeper raised me.
I mean that's who took care of me. She would
give me to the housekeeper and I would go stay
at her home once in a while. And so anyways,
I think the therapist eventually said to her, this is

(22:26):
a boarding school you can go to. Here's an option
of something that will really like shake it into her
that she could be better, you know, that there's something
better for her. So my mom took me to visit
and as I was on the tour, I'll never forget,
the girl said, well, this is these are the dorm.
So we walked through the dorm. This is going to
be your bed and I'm like, oh, I'm not staying,

(22:48):
I'm just visiting, and they're like okay, because that's what
everyone thinks. And by the time I got down to
the main house, my mother had left and she left
me there. So that's how I started going there. And
essentially I was one of the lucky ones because the
way that they show the kids in Wayward getting taken
and brought to se Do was not incorrect. There are

(23:11):
many people that are kidnapped from their own families in
the middle of the night because their families have agreed
to it, and they take you and they do put
something over your head and they take you. Normally, first
you go on a twenty one day wilderness program and
then you go straight from the wilderness program to the school.
But that is how people got to see you.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
DO and the wilderness program, I mean I remember what
was it we used to have. People would be like, oh,
for kids that you know are acting up, they get
sent to these boot camps. They were like Outdoor. It
was this very specific name and I can't remember. But anyway,

(23:52):
so the Wilderness wait, and so I watched your interview
on this and they drop you in the wilderness with.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
What so what's but yeah, well, the twenty one day
Wilderness program is a survival trip. That might have been
the word you were looking for, but those are survival trips.
Then you go to ce Do while at sea Do.
There's three different trips that you take. There's a three day,
there's a five day, and then there's a fourteen day

(24:19):
and the one that I recently was talking about on
my podcast, which by the way, is the one that
they show you know in a wayward. They they basically
give you a map and you're with your your peer group,
which is the group that you go through the school with,
and it's like fifteen kids and they say, here you are.
We were in the Joshua Tree desert and you need

(24:42):
to get here, and there's you know, you have to
be here on a certain date otherwise you get in trouble.
And so that's how we do it. And I remember
as you're you know, it's funny because you're asking me this.
As we're watching on Wayward and they are in the wilderness.
They pause and I'm like, Dan, Dan, Oh my god,
I have this photo. I have this photo of me
with my pack on. And I sipped through my phone

(25:04):
and I found it and I showed him and I'm
like fourteen. And by the way, that I'm fifteen. And
the most fucked up part is just three weeks before
my father had been found dead, and I went on
this trip knowing that, like I was dealing with the
fact that my father was no longer coming back. He
was the one who never wanted me to go there

(25:26):
and was trying to get me to escape. He would
send me. He sent me one thousand dollars in a
Rick Astley CD like Stuck in the in the the
cover of the CD. And it was considered contraband because
you can't listen to music there. We can only listen
to like John Denver.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
And why why John Denver?

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Because there was all these rules. There was all these
rules that you could It is very specific.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
And to Charles whatever name is, he well, yeah, John Denver.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
No, it was more like they wanted you to listen
to music that was like made you soul search, I
guess or whatever. So anyways, my father right, So you
were allowed communication. You were allowed communication, but like they
showed in the show, I think they showed it was
for ten minutes there for us, it was fifteen minutes
once every other.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Week, okay, And they listened as well, like they do
in the show.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
They listened and if you said anything about being miserable
or wanting to come home, they would hang up the phone.
Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was terrible. And so you know,
we to finish the conversation about the outdoor part the
wilderness trip they put us. You also had to do
a four day solo which they basically take your pack,

(26:42):
they give you a big canister of water, They give
you a book which is Jonathan Livingston' s Eeagel, and
they give you a notebook and for four days you're
by yourself and listen. I will tell you that I
learned so many good lessons in toilet paper. No, you
did not have toilet paper. You had I think you had.

(27:06):
There was some stuff that we made. I know, this
sounds really gross, and I'm not going to get into it,
but but there was stuff that you could use to
go to the bathroom. But wait, what's stuff? Well, like,
first of all, if you had to take a shit,
you had like a scooper thing, and they give you
a scooper. Yeah, they gave you like a shovel and
you shit in a hole and you cover it up

(27:28):
and then you use the water on your ass.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Okay, did they explain this or you guys had to
figure it out.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Oh listen, at that point, I had been there a
year and a half, so we know because we had
gone on a three day a wildnerness trip, and we've
been on a five day wilderness trip. So by then,
you you know. I mean, listen, we are self like
we we knew how to take care of ourselves from
such an early age because there was no real staff.
The staff were former kids that went there and a

(27:58):
couple other people, but no one was like a real
staff member. And all the cleaning was because we all
had things we had to do. All the fire to
keep us warm was because of we cut wood every
morning from nine to twelve. The most important thing that
people should really understand and the takeaway is that in
the synanonm they had something where you would sit in

(28:18):
what they call the hot seat in Wayward. For us,
it was called wraps r aps and where you would
like wrap it was exactly the hot seat. It was.
You sat in a circle with fifteen to twenty kids.
They screamed at you until you did something called running
your anger, which is where you because you get when

(28:39):
everyone's screaming you like that, you get really defensive. So
first kids are defensive. They're like, yeah, fuck you, you don't
know what you're talking about, You're a fucking whore, whatever,
And then all of a sudden it starts to build
up and then they're like, well, how does this remind
you of your life at home? How did you you know?
And then you start to really take it in and
then I know it sounds crazy, but the end of it,

(29:00):
you are screaming, facing the floor, looking down, snots coming
out and you're crying. And that is called running your
anger and that is what a rap is. And they
wanted you to do that in this four hour period
that you had, and you did that three times a week.
I mean, you weren't always in the hot seat, but
I was there for three years, so at least once

(29:21):
a week I'm getting yelled at, whether it's for not
you know, it's we couldn't wear makeup, so there was
CarMax that we had for our lips, and I'll never forget.
I would get in trouble because they said that I
was cutting corners by putting so much Carmex on to
look like I had lipstick on. So they were like,
you're this, You're that, you know, because I use CarMax.

(29:43):
I mean, it was so ridiculous, But there was a
deeper meaning behind all the stuff that they're doing, and
even in the show Wayward, for people that understand that stuff,
it's because they are trying to get you to take
away all the the stuff that doesn't matter. And even
though we have all these conversations that don't matter and

(30:05):
people are jealous and pointing fingers at you because they're
angry about stupid stuff, when you get to the heart
of it, there is some truth to everything. So that
is the point of like getting you to all of
a sudden start to scream and really take ownership of
your life and change. I mean, that was the bottom
line for the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
I understand that I'm not disagreeing as I'm watching it,
and I'm grateful and just if you were watching this,
but it's you see, it's understandable that you're like, okay,
you have to break free of everything that you know
and have held onto and then start anew But abuse
isn't the.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Way, right, Well, some people don't think of it as abuse.
Mental it was listen, so you do us closed down
for abuse, So it was abuse and the same thing.
There were kids that ran away that never were found again.
I ran away. I knew that everyone in the town
was in on it, so I knew to hide until
I got further far enough that I could hitchhike. That's

(31:04):
real too. Everything in there is real. You could ask
me about anything and it might be tweaked for TV,
but they're everything about it has something that rings true
for it. So I was sent to juvenile hall for
three days until I agreed to come home, come come
back to the school. And by the way, at the
end of it, when once my father died, I was like,
there's no way out now. So I just chose to

(31:26):
like accept it, and then I literally became one of them,
like the girl in the beginning who's like yelling at
people and blowing her whistle. That became me. It was
a pigeon. Yes, yes, that and when I graduated. Yes,
And when I graduated, I sobbed my eyes out because
I didn't want to leave. I felt like they were
in my family. And isn't that what you hear happens

(31:48):
with when you graduated?

Speaker 1 (31:49):
You were there till you were eighteen.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
No, so you graduate after a certain amount of time.
And I think they allude to that in the school too.
They're not eighteen when we graduated, So it's a.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
I'm thinking about the Oatmeal Girl and their.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Version of what a leap is. We call them profits
and you are taken in the middle of the night
and you're up for twenty four hours and they do
all these crazy, you know things with you, these experiences,
and you come out of them and you were a
changed person. They have I think five of them, So
I think that was their version of what the leap
is because it's moments like laying and water like that,

(32:26):
and they're saying these things over and over and it's
changing your mind. They just do it with music and
physical activity and stuff like that. And the door reference
is that real that reference. No, it is not real,
but it is a reference of you know what. I
think modern day people think that cults are where they
have this image. They do a lot of imagery with you.

(32:49):
They have you close your eyes and these profits and
you have to visualize and do all these things similar
to that.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
But no, the door reference didn't mean anything to me.
And why do you think in your opinion the physicality,
like the shaming, the screaming, the like, not that it
was right. But you're saying you understand, and I guess
I can semi understand where it breaks you down to
get you to a place.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
But why the physical abuse, Well, the physical abuse, you know,
I didn't ever experience any physical abuse, so I don't.
I can't say that that's you know, that's a thing.
But the emotional abuse. Listen, you have five kids, you
must know because I have one, and I know that
sometimes I want to be like shake her and be

(33:38):
like are you you know? Why can't you understand this?
Like I know what I'm talking about, you know, and
you got to listen to me. I think the intention
behind it, like I said, is to shake you like
you know you have friends like that. You just want
to be like Rachel or Tory, like I can see
this in you. You're better than this. Why do you

(33:58):
continually do this? And and so it's very similar to
that that they get you to this place where you
finally cry and break down. And I think they see
a sign of breaking down is vulnerability and saying like okay,
I'll change, And that's when everybody comes in and hugs
you and says I love you so much, You're the best.
It's very it seems very abusive, it is, but I

(34:20):
understand the intention behind it. And I only say that
because I went through it, and there are good qualities
to me that I got from that, And it's odd
for me to say that, but there are. I'm like
a rule follower. I am very transparent. I can read
people like like I have a weird ability, only because
we had to know when someone was lying. We had

(34:41):
to follow such strict rules that we knew when someone
was out of agreement. They call it like I just
I grew up like those formative years when you're growing
up is when I went to that school. So it
really ingrained some stuff in me. But I also have
a lot of negatives to it, and I have boundaries
that are much different than other people's. I get almost

(35:06):
like a caged animal a little bit in certain things.
And I also am like ice a little bit, like
someone will betray me and I will cut them out
very quickly. I'd rather be isolated and alone on an
island than depend on somebody and worry that they're going
to betray me. That to me is very hard because
I had to learn to take care of myself. I
didn't live at home my entire life since I was

(35:28):
twelve years old. I had no one to protect me
besides myself.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
You were betrayed before that by your mom maybe for
twelve and abandoned emotionally, right, So in this in Wayward,
they're not allowed to hug. That was real then. So
you have that moment where everyone's allowed to come in
in the group and hug and I love you, and yes,

(35:52):
do you still have a hard time with hugging to
this day. Uh?

Speaker 2 (35:56):
It's funny. My daughter says that I'm not that I
don't hug her very well, And I think I think
I'm very affectionate, but I'm not affectionate to a lot
of people. So I wouldn't call myself a cold person.
But I can see how I can come off as
cold because I'm not like super affectionate just because I'm not.
I didn't grow up that way. But I believe in

(36:17):
affection and I love my daughter more than anything, So
when she says that to me, it feels awkward. But yeah,
I did not grow up. I didn't get any touch.
You weren't allowed to touch. And again, the only time
you could touch it was called smushing, and you were
allowed to smush when you told your story. And you know,

(36:37):
you could like lay on the floor kind of and
put your head on someone's stomach, but it wasn't like,
you know, like loving hugging it, because that was inappropriate.
You couldn't have any inappropriate relationships with the opposite sex,
so you couldn't be physical with them either. Did people
break those rules. If they broke the rules, they were

(36:59):
out of agreement and you would get put on bands,
which meant you couldn't talk to anyone, You couldn't look
at anybody in the eye. You had to sit by yourself,
eat by yourself, beyond work assignments, like they haven't wayward
when they had to go and move the stones. I
actually had to do that exact exercise where I spent
three hours moving it was wood from one place to

(37:21):
the other just to go to lunch, come back, and
in the afternoon I had to move the exact same
pile of wood back to the original spot. So yeah,
I mean, why is the food brown? I think that
that was a just play on stuff for TV. Yeah,

(37:42):
the food was brown to me was the metaphor of like,
the food was always the same and very bland, and
it was nothing exciting. I mean, I couldn't tell you
one thing we ate because it was like pasta or hamburger,
you know, it was. Everything was very bland. And why
the takeaway of oatmeal? The oatmeal? Well, it's very interesting

(38:03):
about the oatmeal because I can't remember what you're saying
about Wayward right now, but I remember watching it.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
They don't allow anyone to eat oatmeals, so that one
girl is it oatmeal Emily or oatmeal Sarah?

Speaker 2 (38:14):
But no, no, no, I think they allow them, but
you only get one pack. And okay, I thought that
was interesting. They don't allow you to eat oatmeal at sea, dude,
the only time you got oatmeal is when you were
on your wilderness trips, so to me. I saw that
in there. I was like, oh my god, that's so funny.
I get it, but like it wouldn't be something that
I would even explain because I wouldn't get it. But yeah,

(38:36):
we only got oatmeal on our wilderness trips, so it
was like it was like getting candy, you know.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
And what what were things people would internally trade?

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Nothing? You couldn't. There was nothing to trade. You were
not allowed to even share anything. I mean, for me
to let somebody use my car, Max, I would be
out of agreement. You Everything that was yours was yours.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
But did that take you a while to follow those rules?

Speaker 2 (39:03):
Oh my god, yes, you're in You're in trouble for
three years. But like if you you find out there's rules,
if you pee in the shower, you you get work assignments,
Like yeah, exactly, I mean, don't people still pee in
their own pool? I mean, like, so it's like I

(39:25):
was always in trouble, especially at the beginning until you know,
but like you know, you have to wear your hair
a certain way. They didn't have, you know, everybody there
had a uniform on the show. We didn't have uniforms.
But again, the takeaway for me is we could only
wear certain things, so it was like having a uniform.
You had to cover your arms, you had to wear
loose fitting clothes, you had to tuck everything in, couldn't you?

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Or your mom had it brought to you when.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
I check When I checked in, she had a bag
apparently that I didn't, and she had the stuff and
they had given her a list of things that I
could have.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
Oh my goodness. Your roommate was it the same roommate
the entire time.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
No, So my dorm changed a couple of times, and
it's always people of different years. So you go through
the school with a peer group. The peer group is
the fifteen people or so that arrive within the the
same month as you. So like once a week, like
a couple times a week, someone new would come, and
then there might be three weeks with no new people.
When they finally have fifteen to eighteen people, that is

(40:33):
called the peer group, and you start your first leap.
It wasn't called a leap, but so that that would
it was a profit, So that would be a peer group.
So in my dorm room, I would have someone who
was about to graduate. I would have somebody from all
different like three different peer groups because then when somebody
did graduate, there was a bed free, and then you
get a new person to come in that room. And

(40:55):
then as you get older in the school, you move
to like a better dorm, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
So in your dorm room. So the rooms they show
on the show, are they accurate or slightly? It's two beds,
would everything's just would very clinical. It's I don't think
it's horrific looking. I've seen worse stuff.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
So to me, that looked a little bit more like
an insane asylum like what you see and girl interrupted.
It wasn't an insane asylum. It was literally a log
a bunch of log cabins with log either bunk beds
or shorter you know, twin beds. But everything looks pristine
because you have to make your beds. You have to
scrub the floor with a toothbrush, like everything is very

(41:40):
very clean. Nothing is metal, it's all wood. And some
rooms had two Most rooms had three to four people
in it and they would share a bathroom.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
And was there Sorry now now I'm going on to
like reality TV shows alliances ever formed?

Speaker 2 (41:59):
Yeah, and you could get in trouble, like if you
got too close to someone and you were always with them.
You could count on the fact you'd be in the
hot seat about why are you always a toy? You
guys are so you know, you gang up on people,
You're so out of agreement. You guys have all these secrets.
You guys are making a pack to run away together
like that kind of thing. And then you and I
would have been on a band and we wouldn't be
able to talk to each other for like two months.

(42:21):
So yeah, you have to be very careful with.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
How much time you spend with one person. And did
you have to sleep on the ground.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Ever, Like, oh yeah, yes, I mean inside in your
dorm room, Like, oh yeah, I mean there was time, character,
There was plenty of times depending on what was happening.
But also when you went through the profite, you would
sleep on the ground. You would not have your ear
on bed.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
Is this some form of breaking you down? Like, I mean,
insomnia must after a while.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Well, the profits are only twenty four hours. You're definitely tired. No,
you know what's interesting And I've talked about this before,
but I'll tell you because you've you don't know, I
forget what part it is now in the show but
they were talking about how somebody had to dig a
grave or something. Did you get to that part yet?
I have not gotten there yet. Okay, So during one

(43:12):
of our leaps, our profits, I had to dig a grave.
It was wintertime, it was with a spoon, and I
had to lay in it and write your own epitaph. Again,
that's a word I was just saying the other day.
I wouldn't even know that word unless since I went
to the school. They told us you had to write
an epitaph, which is what you would write about yourself

(43:33):
when you died, or what you want somebody to write
about you, and then somebody stands over the grave and
reads it to you while you're laying in this ice
cold grave because it's freezing outside. So these lessons are
supposed to, yes, break you down, but realize, you know,
if it's somebody dealing with a drug addiction, if it's
somebody whatever your own issue is that you're dealing with,

(43:54):
to show you you could be dead, but instead you're
here at this school and you could be anyone you want.
You just to get up and change your life. So
I mean, there's a good lesson in there somewhere. If
you could sift through the the abusive ways that they're
teaching it to you. What was yours europe test? Well, God,
I can't remember, but it was I how could you

(44:15):
forget that? Well, because my epitaph is what I wrote
about myself. It was right. No, I know, her name
was Rachel could Tell. Yeah, I trust me. I blanked
out a lot of things, but it was like, you know,
Rachel U could Tell died today. She was thirty, you know,
fifteen years old. She loved dogs more than anything, you know, whatever,
whatever it said, but she was unable to forgive. Forgiveness

(44:40):
was a big word they always put on me. She
was unable to forgive X y Z. So that's what
it kind of looked like, you know, that type of thing,
you were unable to forgive. What did they say? Does
that pertain back to your mom? It did? Yeah. A
lot of my forgiveness was like that. My parents were
divorced when I was little, and I went to live
with my mom and I never really saw my phone.
Other those types of things, I think is what I

(45:02):
was really struggling with at that age.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Are you still in contact with any of the roommates
you had no.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
And it's so odd. Choice. No, it's like so odd
because we all did feel like a family at the end.
By the way, I will tell you the people that
went to the school, I would never name them because
there are people that are that feel very shameful about
going there. I guess there are plenty of people that
you know that I know that we see in the

(45:31):
public who went there. A lot of famous people's kids
went there that we all know, Like we might not
know their kids. I know them because I went to
school with them. But famous people that are still in
pop culture, they've sent their kids there because they had
trouble with them and didn't know how to deal with
them the way.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
So the character Rory who says his father's musician and
a famous actor, I can tell you who.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
That was, because now exactly that kid was in my
pure group and his father was a family this musician. Yeah,
but I had a bunch of them.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Is his father still alive?

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Uh, he's part of a band, and I don't listen
to the band, So I don't know. I don't think so,
actually I don't know. I'll tell you off to the screen,
and I don't. I mean, but there's so I mean
so many. It's like, forget the band. It's like there's
actors and actresses. There's a journalist who's dead who sat
her daughter there. I think she's open about it, but

(46:28):
I don't want you know. And then you know, Paris Hilton,
I think, has talked about being a part of these
schools her Provo Canyon. So Provo Canyon was a sister
school to see do Now, I'm not saying owners and
I'm not going to take anything away from Paris, but
her experience is much different than mine. There was no

(46:49):
physical abuse. I didn't see it. That was not part
of our school.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
But also, you know, she wasn't there as long, so
maybe her experience was totally different because is it also
was in pro you know, Provo and wherever. But many
other people at her school have come forward to say
the same thing.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, so then their school, Yeah, their school was totally
run different. There was no I can I can tell
you there was no sexual assault by any I've never
heard that at our school. The assaults on us were
much more verbal and physical, and and it was it
was terrifying and terrible, and you wanted to leave and
you couldn't get out of there. And it was. It

(47:30):
was miserable. But so she started to make the therapeutic
boarding School top you know, a point of a topic
for people to listen to. But Wayward is the first
time that I've actually seen people really talk about what
that's like. And for people like us that went through
what I went through, there was no physical scars, so

(47:50):
I you know, it's harder for us because I can't say, yeah, somebody,
somebody beat me up, somebody raped me. That did not happen.
But being there was terrible and tear arrifying. And the
fact that I ever thought of running away from the
San Bernardino Mountains up and running springs that's like in
Big Bear, where if you've ever gone skiing up there,
it's in the middle of fucking nowhere, And you know,

(48:11):
I would rather be in juvenile Hall than go back there.
It was a really it was a very terrible experience.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Have you seen the documentary the program about Ivy Ridge?

Speaker 2 (48:31):
No? On Netflix? No, I should watch it.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Well, I don't want to give you more PTSD.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Well, I love listen it's weird. I like watching stuff
like that because it makes me feel connected to people
that like get it. So yeah, I'll watch it.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
So when I saw Wayward come out, I thought it
was based on that documentary because I had seen that
a few months ago where the filmmaker kind of got
a group together that went there. They go, it's abandoned
now and it's the first time they've been back there,
and they walk through it. But a lot of the

(49:07):
same things. There's I think they alluded to a lot more.
There's physical abuse, and I don't think they mentioned sexual abuse.
But it was the same type of gosh, you know,
the word hard knocks just wanted to come out. It's like, Nope,
this isn't any this is way worse, right, But yeah,
you should definitely check that out. It's interesting. Obviously we're

(49:35):
not here in person, and we haven't met before. We've
never met, right, No, I would definitely remember you, okay,
And I'm having a hard time reading you about your
experience because on some level you're saying it was horrible,
but then I feel like you're justifying the emotional takeaway

(50:00):
from it.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah, I know. I think that's the struggle that I
have with it, because again, I came from like what
I considered a broken home and I was so miserable.
So again until I hated it the first year and
a half. And then once I realized I wasn't going
anywhere and my father wasn't going to save me, as
I said, I switched and I was like, Okay, I'm

(50:22):
I'm in here. I'm in it. So it's hard for me,
you know, to express you know, how terrible it is
without the caveat of like, but that's who raised me.
So it's kind of like talking about a parent that
raised you that was so terrible and horrible, but at

(50:42):
the same time you love them. So I mean, that's
how I feel about it. It's I whenever I meet
someone that has gone there, I'm very drawn to them
because I want to have someone that's gone through that
to be like, oh my god, do you remember this
and how terrible that was and this thing. But also
at the same time, I really wouldn't have a lot

(51:03):
of the qualities that I have that I think can
make me very strong unless I went there, and and
I am not someone that's been able. If I wasn't
as strong as I was, I would not have been
able to get through my life. So I listen, it's
not like I would never send my daughter to a
place like that, but I wouldn't. I guess I wouldn't

(51:24):
not have done it myself either, because I would have
grown up very pampered at a at a you know,
all girls private school in New York City, and who
knows what qualities was I going to get out of that?
I mean, I don't know. So while there was some
very terrible, terrible experiences, I can appreciate the lessons that

(51:47):
I learned while I was there. If that makes sense.
It does make sense.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
It's it's hard hearing you say it, just having watched
the show and knowing that someone I'm talking to went
through an experience like that.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
It's which, by the way, is what I feel like
a lot of people would say to you, because even
in the show Wayward, you see how many people work there, right,
and how everyone stays in the town. So it's not
just that they they are somebody's brainwash them. It's more
like they don't really want to leave because that feels

(52:22):
like home to them, and that feels safe. So to me,
that gave me chills. That makes me so sad. Yeah,
But to me, that we.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Really want as children, not all we want a lot,
but we want acceptance and when You don't get that
from your maternal or paternal unit. You look for it outside, right,
And so you got it from them, yes, yeah, So
who was the head master or head master at the time.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
There was two, one after the other. I've never heard
from them again, but there are a couple main people
that I mean, they were fired and the whole thing
went down, But there was a couple of main people
that really ran the school. The head master wasn't as
prevalent as Tony Collect's figure. It was more this couple

(53:11):
that worked there, and a guy named Rudy and his
wife Jill, and I know where they are. And there
was another guy, Martin, who's at another school that's very similar.
They're all in a lot of trouble. I think. I've
read that they have been accused of different things, and
I think are dealing with some legal stuff. And you know,

(53:34):
so the main people, like.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Can you say what you've heard they're accused of.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
I think one of them was accused of some sexual
abuse in a probably as far back as you do,
but in the current school now, and Jill and Rudy
have been accused of I think, and I mean again,
if I'm wrong, I'm sorry. But I believe I've read
a physical abuse, which would not prize me because they

(54:00):
were very scary people, but again feared like you fear
your your parents, and you want to do right by them.
So I feel like I don't know how to I
wouldn't be surprised if I heard that that was what happened.
But also I can understand that I've seen them raise
their voice in a way that would scare the shit
out of someone, but it's not actually physical.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Okay, and in the way that you feel like see
do in a way was a home for you and
raised you. Would you want to be in contact with
Rudy and Jill again if you could.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Be No, no, no, I think I would be frightened
too a little bit so no. While I was there
and I wanted to make them like me and I
when I remember when Rudy was happy with me, it
was like the best feeling ever. I was closer to
Rudy than I was to Jill, she was a little

(54:56):
more cold. But h Now I have no connection to them,
and I feel like I have a wall up, which
is probably why I don't communicate with anyone that also
went there with me. Where again, I have a profound
love for people that went to that school with me,
But I just would never reach out and talk about

(55:17):
it because it's just something that I don't want to
I just wouldn't want to do. I don't know why.
That's just how I feel.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Do you feel like CDOUD took away your innocence, your vulnerability.
I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
I don't know. If I would word it that way,
I would say that it took away my teenage years.
I mean when I got out, I didn't even know
who Vanilla Ice was. I didn't know who Milli Vanilli were,
I like, because we weren't allowed.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
It was lip syncing.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
Yeah, well I know, but all sorts of things that
I missed, Like nineteen eight and nine to nineteen ninety one,
that's what I was there, And so in those years
I really lost being a teenager. I think I had
kissed a boy before I had ever gone there, so

(56:07):
I was never physically intimate with someone until I was
even seventeen years old. And when I say physically intimate,
I mean even just kissing, Like I had literally just
kissed a guy before I had gone away. So I
felt a little behind so, and then all those years
of friendships and interacting and being in school and playing sports,

(56:28):
and I didn't get that. I didn't go to a prom,
you know, I didn't have any of that stuff. So
it was it was very strange.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Do you want to recreate prompt? It would be really
fun to reach Let's do that'd be fun. I think
I'm a little old, but we're the same age.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, can we do that? Would that be fun? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (56:52):
I would do it with you.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Who would you invite to prom?

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Like, are you allowed to date yet? Are you dating? Oh?

Speaker 1 (57:03):
I am not currently dating, but I'm allowed.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
You're allowed to Okay, are you divorced?

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Are you it's not finalized yet, but you guys are
allowed to see other people?

Speaker 2 (57:12):
Wait what do you mean aloud? Well, I don't know
because listen, I've dated people and they're like, you're a
fucking whore. You're cheating because the guys isn't officially divorced,
you know what I'm saying? So like, would you if
you know? And because of the loophole that I fall in,
you know, and because of my past, people are like,
oh he's not married, you're a mistress again. So I

(57:34):
was always very careful to make sure I understand. The
guy essentially showed me his divorce papers before. But like,
so you would date somebody now you just haven't.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
I think so I have. I've dated someone, but I'm
not currently dating. But I yeah, I don't know how
my kids would feel about it, right, It would really.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Depend on the person.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah, my focus is really them and it's been a
hard two years.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
For them, so but I.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Yeah, it's it's a little lonely and isolated. I'm with
five kids twenty four to seven.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Yeah, and by the way.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
I decited to talk to you. This is the most
like adult interaction I get.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Wow, I love that watching Wayward when my eight year
old's is asleep, so you know, but I feel like
I went through that for so long too, because my
daughter's thirteen, and she essentially wanted to sleep in my bed,
and she would have slept in my bed till she
was twenty seven if she could, you know what I mean? Like, yeah,
and I always was like, well, no one else is here,
so exactly, I like having someone to watch Gray's Anatomy

(58:40):
with or whatever. But so I get it. But at
some point, listen, I heard what you just said. You said,
my focus right now is my kids, as it should
be and as it will be, even if you start
to date someone, and it can only make you a
happier person when you find someone who has that like
male alpha energy that is not coming in to replace

(59:04):
anybody except for to just be a total asset to
you and to love you and care about who you
are and very much care about your kids if you
want that to be part of it, and thinks it's
fun that you have this entourage of kids with you,
Like I would never date somebody who didn't have kids
or like my kids. I mean, part of the reason
why I even fell in love with my current fiance

(59:26):
is because he wanted to go to every volleyball game
of Wyatts and like do all these family things. When
I was like, listen, I'm not going to date anyone,
but well too, he does. But they're in their twenties, okay, yeah,
but he wanted to do all the kids stuff because
he thought it was fun and great. We were friends
first and he was just such a good friend to

(59:50):
have around my daughter, and my daughter was like, he
doesn't give me the dick, which I thought was important.
How kids are just so grossed out. That's a win.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
That's a huge I understand what you're saying exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
I wasn't even sure that he didn't give me the okay,
Like I didn't know if I was into it, But
I found I fell in love with him because of
how good he was to my daughter and how like
cool she was with him. And then I was like, oh,
all right, well maybe I can get back into my
feminine energy. But I feel like, you know, I know
you must understand that, Like it's it was so hard

(01:00:24):
to feel like I wanted to be sexy or you know,
I just wasn't in that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Oh yeah, you're you're in your domination like masculine energy
because you're just fighting to survive and take care of
a child exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Still to this day, I am very alpha. So it's hard.
I have to remind myself to not have every answer
to every question and get annoyed when it's not handled
as soon as I would handle it. But you know,
to to know that I have someone that can handle
the load if I need to drop it, Like you know,
he's like my catcher, Like if something's about to hit

(01:01:02):
the ground, he would make sure to catch it. And
I like having someone like that in my life, and
I wish that for you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
That's beautiful. I thank you. I hope so too.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
What sign are you? Oh? I'm terrible with signs. Aquarius?

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
You're an Aquarius.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
I thought that would give me answers. It gives me.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Your water sign. Okay? Does that mean I retain water
or something? I have no idea. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
I jumped in with a hard question, so you know,
at the end, I'm just going to ask you the basics.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
What's your sign?

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
What kind of food do you like?

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
My hearts of palm? If you want to know?

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Oh my god, I love hearts of palm? Do you
know what hearts of palm? And I eat them by themselves.
It's like one of my midnight snacks.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
I need to Okay, wait, can I give you a
piece of advice? If you switch to the jar, which
is a little bit more expensive, the jarred candled hearts
of palm tastes better, and then you mix it with
gaspot show that is so weird. But do it or
you dip it? It's wait, you dip it into Do
you like Bloody Mary's? I do? Okay, so you you

(01:02:09):
have it instead of salary and you're bloody. Mary hurts
a palm. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Do you like our bonza beans too?

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
I do. I mean I don't eat those. I don't
eat those one by one, but I put them in
my salad.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
Yeah, Sam, Yeah, Okay, Well sorry, one of my last
questions for you, I have a random question for you
to ask me because I'm studying a dance which I
am dying to show you for my first dance with
my husband, Like when we have our first dance.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
So we picked this really fun dance to do and
we haven't told anybody. And well, and so we're going
to this guy to help us teach, you know whatever,
to teach us how to dance. And I was thinking
of you, and didn't you do Dancing with the Stars?
I did? Okay, well, so and I was I actually
said this out loud in I wonder if Tory still dances,

(01:03:02):
Like do you ever go and have dance lessons just
because it's so fun?

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Okay, So here's the thing. Dancing with the Stars literally
changed my life. I was so scared to do it.
Had never really danced before, except you know, out in
the clubs in my twenties, like you know. And I
was like, yeah, I'm great on the dance floor, but
technical moves or maybe for some movies, I had to
get choreography taught to me. But aside from that, No,

(01:03:28):
and I got so emotionally invested in it because it
like brought out his side. It was like me time,
Like I was like, oh my gosh, it's like in
spiritual like awakening. And then I was like, I just
want to keep dancing. I'm going to dance forever now. Nope,
I haven't danced, okay, And I asked my friend Daniello's

(01:03:50):
one of the pros and she's married to my part
who was my partner, Pasha, And I said to her
a few months ago I saw her and I said,
I feel really guilty about it that I like made
this bout of myself.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
I'm going to keep dancing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
And then like I told everyone, I want to keep
dancing and I haven't. She's like, no one does.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
I was like, no, are you serious? And she goes, all.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
The stars come in and have the same you know,
awakening and love and joy of it and so much
fun on the show. But she goes, I've never seen
one actually follow through on it afterwards if they've never
if they're not a dancer.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
Right, got it? Got it? And how do you still talk
to any of the people you became friends with? Like
that did the show? I do? Oh that's good. So
you made some good bands.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Oh yeah, it was definitely a bonding experience, even though
I wasn't there long. So what type of first dance
do you have planned?

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Well, I don't want to say on air because it's
going to be a good price, but I will tell
you that we I'm fifty, he's fifty seven or fifty eight,
and so we are. We hired this amazing DJ. For
people that are listening, his name is DJ Eric Rhodes.
You have to follow him. He has like a million followers.
He does those mashups of like country with eighties rock.

(01:05:05):
It's so good. Do you like country at all?

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
You have to be I love eighties music.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
Okay, So you've got to follow him. We're flying him
in and so we are going to do a little
bit of it an ode to I wish I was
born in the eighties theme because I'm in the seventies.
He's in the sixties theme. First dance, so that it's
not born. Yeah, and we've never done anything like this.

(01:05:31):
I'm not like a TikTok dancer or anything. It's really hard,
but it's really fun. So I feel like I'm on
Dancing with the Stars because we're in there in the
studio and the dancing instructor and you know, and Dan
cannot dance for poor man to save his life. That
he thinks he's so good, and it's just who knows
how it's going to end up. He might end up

(01:05:52):
squants your acceptance. Yeah, yeah, but he might end up
with a broken back and during our wedding, So just
who knows, because it's just there's a lot of coordination
and but anyway, we're very excited about it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Be you going to do outfit changes? What's changes?

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Yes, yeah, it's fun. Are you serving hearts of palm?
I'm probably gonna serve hearts of palm? And something I
might do like a garbage salad, which I love a
good garbage salad, like chopped and put all my favorites.
It's a garbage salad on. Everything is in it. So
they have a break when people say like kitchen sink,

(01:06:28):
like everything everything in the kitchen, Yeah, exactly, all my
favorite things.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
Well, I hope to meet you one day. I know
me too, me too. If you ever come to Palm Beach,
you'll have to let me know. We'll well next time.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
I'll see you and not go to the Everglades I
was doing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Don't and but no if you I don't know how
far outside of l A you're in, but I'm there often.
Oh really, Okay, so I would love to see you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
I'm almost slide into your DM.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
We can have a fun night. We'll for tend that
we're going to prom together.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Yes, that would be really fun. Okay, well, now I
have to finish watching Wayward because I'm only on episode four.
I think there's eight episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Okay, well please do It's very it's it's great and
I all. And my biggest takeaway from that, I was
so honored May Martin started following me on Instagram. Yeah,
so I was so excited. I was like, oh my god,
and I'm hoping that he'll come on my show eventually,
so to talk about what it was like to make that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
And by the way, speaking of which, I really would
love for you to come on my show one day.
I would love to called and misunderstood about people who
have at some point in their lives been reduced to
a headline. And I think that there are times when
that has been your case, and I think that people
do misunderstand who you are and would love to get
to know you better. I know you share a lot

(01:07:52):
of stuff on your own podcast, and you shared a
lot of stuff in your life, but I think it'd
be great to have a conversation with you and have
you on on that kind of platform where it's just
about feeling like you have the you're changing your own
narrative and talking about yourself. I love that i'd been on.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
Well, have a great rest of the day.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Thank you you too, and again, thank you so much
for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Oh my gosh, Rachel, thank you it was a pleasure. Okay,
bye bye