November 22, 2025 • 46 mins
With her divorce in her rearview mirror, RHOM's Alexia Nepola is ready to do the work!
Dr. Hillary joins her for an intimate one-on-one session to get to the heart of healing, why certain patterns happen when it comes to who we date, and how to process emotions when going through a traumatic divorce.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome back to I Do Part two. I'm one of
your celebrity mentors, Alexinapola from the Real Houses of Miami,
and today I wanted to check in with someone I've
had on the podcast before. She's a psychologist who does
extensive work in the area of relationships, helping couples as
well as individuals in all areas of life before marriage,
(00:36):
during the marriage, separated, divorced, and high conflict divorce. Today,
it's kind of like I'm getting my own private session.
I don't know about that. I am a little bit scared.
I'm not gonna lie. But once again, Hi, doctor Hillary.
It's so nice to see you again.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Nice to see you again too. I'm glad we could
come back together to chat.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yes, I'm a little scared. I'm a little free because
this is I feel like this is like a live
session with like a lot of people, and I'm used
to like private sessions.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, hopefully you'll make me feel, you know, at ease
and calm and not nervous, and I can open up
as much as I need to.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah. Well, I mean ground rules for any session, whether
other people are listening or not, is to only go
towards places that feel safe and comfortable. And you know,
I always like to think of it as like the
just right challenge. You can like go as far as
you think it's comfortable with just maybe pushing yourself a
little bit in terms of vulnerability and exposure for the
(01:39):
purposes of growth. But I got you. I'll make sure
that it feels okay and look out for signs if.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's not okay. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Last time we met, we were talking a lot about
dating and relationships, and I'd love to get sort of
a state of the union in terms of where you
are and if that still remains kind of a a
central theme for you.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, I feel like relationships have always been a big
part of my life. I feel like I've been married
my whole adult life, so as I said, for me,
they've always been important. But this time that I've been
on my own has honestly been so good for me.
I've discovered so much about myself and so much self
(02:23):
awareness and self love, and you know, just reflecting on why,
you know, my adult life and my adult relationships have
been the way that they've been, you know, I want
to see only the positive because I am an optimistic
and I continue to believe in love and I think
that that's one of my things that I love to heart.
But you know, I'm also proud of it. You know,
(02:44):
I don't want to change, you know. I like the
way I am. I'm just, like I said, more confident,
I know what I want, I know myself worth. You know,
sometimes it's you know, it's scary to be alone, and
I think it's not because you need that male partner.
You just don't know any other way of being, which
is kind of like, you know, my adult life that
have always been in a relationship and married.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting. I work with a
lot of female clients who talk about this sort of
I don't know, internal and also societal dilemma of like
wanting to love love, wanting to be in love, wanting
a partnership, and this pull around whether or not that's
an okay thing or an empowered thing, or a sign
(03:27):
of weakness. And I love that you're identifying and owning
with the desire for connection and partnership. I think that's
amazing and lovely and not only should there not be
shame in it, we should be able to identify and
declear that for ourselves. It is part of why we
exist is to be in connection and community with other people,
(03:47):
and romantic love is an enormous part of that. And
so I think for you leaning into that is lovely
and amazing. It's just trying to and it's a big
thing and a big pursuit of trying to tease out
what parts of that process have not worked for you,
you know, what parts of that process has led you
to relationships that ultimately aren't resident and to think about
(04:12):
continuously how you want to show up differently or more
expansively moving forward. So I'm curious how that process has
been and if that process has expanded since you've been alone.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Well, I mean, for me, love has always been It's
so my relationships have never ended because of lack of love.
And that's very important, you know, to distinguish, because I
feel like a lot of relationships either go apart or
you love each other, but not like in a romantic
or passionate way, and you know, you just don't, you know,
you're not in love anymore. But you know, my all
(04:43):
my relationships have been filled with lots of love, and
that's why I think I still hold on to that,
you know, to the idea of love because I know
how important love is and how great you can be
if you love the right way and you receive the
love back in the same way. So yeah, that's why
I'm still you know, happy and you know, and optimistic,
and I believe that everybody should be. Like, my happiness
(05:06):
doesn't depend on that person or on the relationship, because
I've always been a happy person. You know, I just
want that person to compliment, you know, my world, and
you know, to compliment me and to make me feel
emotionally safe and to be at peace. And you know,
I feel like we love differently in different stages of
our lives. And that's the stage that I'm at now.
(05:26):
I mean, I feel like I have all these tools
now with like being older and all the lessons that
have gone through and have so much wisdom that like
I feel like I'm I'm ready now. I wish I
would have had all these tools, you know, back in
the day, and maybe I would still be married, you know.
To The first to follow is because you know, I
feel like a lot of times, you know, you don't
(05:47):
have those tools, especially if you're you know, you're younger
like I was.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
What are sort of the tools that you've curated that
make you feel more solid now. And then part two
of my question is where are the arenas if any
of deficits where you still feel like you need to
shore up to be prepared and ready for connection.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well, I mean, I feel like a lot of the
deficit that I had previously, you know, in the past,
besides you know, being younger and you know, naive not
knowing so much about myself was this time around. I
really dove into myself and into just finding out why
I am the way I am and why my relationships
(06:31):
were going maybe not the way I wanted them to go.
So I found out a lot about you know, they
call it now childhood trauma, but you know, I want
to call it like childhood experience. You know, like your
parents did the best that they could, and you know,
my parents loved me tremendously, but you know, I do
now realize that I did have childhood trauma. My parents
(06:53):
were divorced. That had a lot to do with it.
I feel like my parents had, especially my father, was
a love that was like conditional, like if I was
a good girl and I got eight pluses and I
you know, and I never got in trouble and I was,
you know, like you know, doing amazing in school and
at home and behave and respect. So they would give
(07:15):
me everything, you know, either materialistic wise, or they would
show me love. But the moment that I got in
trouble where I did something that they didn't like or
didn't align with their values, they would punish me, and
they would punish me by withdrawing that love and affection.
So in a way I thought it was okay because
it was my dad and he can do it. But
then I feel like I've had that pattern with men
(07:37):
in my life as well, that I think it's you know,
it's okay. So I found out a lot this time
because I've had I've given time to myself. I feel
like a lot of women when you know, we go
through these you know, separations if you want to call them,
you know, from our spouses. We we never really do
work in ourselves, you know. We either start going out
with our friends, we start drinking, we start you know,
(07:58):
doing things that really but we shouldn't really be doing
to deal with the pain instead of grieving it, you know,
and sitting with yourself, reading the books, talking to life
coaches and this time, I really did it for myself,
and other times I've never given myself that time a
bond from one relationship to the other. And I feel
like a lot of women do that because of different reasons, right,
(08:19):
not only because all we're scared to be alone or like,
you know, I know that a lot of people say that.
For me, it wasn't that. For me, it was just
a way of like trying to fall that find that
love again, right, like, so it could replace what I
had before, you know, with the new person.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah. There, You're alluding to some important concepts. But one
thing in my world we call repetition compulsion, right, And
when we have a version of childhood traumas you alluded to,
childhood experiences that were tricky or difficult to absorb and
created certain patterns or beliefs about ourselves, we have an
(08:53):
internal edict to repeat that pattern repetition compulsion, in order
to potentially get a different outcome. So if we had
a withholding father or a father that loved with condition
or loved in a way that was sort of true.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
That it was okay. I mean, I'm saying I got
so much love. I think I got so much love.
I grew up in an environment that was very like
with My dad adored us. But that's the way that
he showed us. He showed me his love. Yes, know
that he would have killed for us, like my mother
and father literally spent other life fighting for us to
hillary because there were both doctors that were both divorced.
They both wanted us to live with them, so it
(09:29):
was all they spent other lives fighting for our love.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And then I had a very nurturing grandmother. Thank god,
I might were Cuban descent. So my grandmother was like
the mother and our family, and she gave up her
life from my sister and I my brother, so she
gave us all the love no matter what we did
wrong or not. You know, she would still, you know,
give us that love that we needed and wanted. So
you know, it was never like lack of love. I
(09:54):
think because our parents didn't have both tools either. So
now I like overcompensate. Not with my kids. I'm like,
I give them so much love, you know, but in
a different way, you know, I show them even if
they mess up, I still got you, I still love you,
I still give you a kiss. I'm may be mad
at you, but I'm still going to tell you I
love you, and I'm still going to give you that
hug that they need. So I heard a lot from that.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, you're talking with such an important kind of nuanced
component and family systems, which is your your family. It
sounds like was filled with so much love. You understood
you were loved, You understood that your parents did everything
for you, work to support you, and once you grow
and expand, and the other thing that was true at
the same time is there was some tricky dynamics that
(10:38):
had you thinking about yourself and about love in certain
ways that impacted you moving forward. And so it's interesting
that people who come from childhood's where there wasn't traumas
people often say with like a capital tee, there's nothing
like identifiable that happened, sort of feel like, well, wait,
what's wrong with me? Why am I not getting relationships right?
(10:58):
Nothing really happened to me, and as a result, have
a hard time understanding how they move through relationships at
times to their own detriment. And so you're bringing up
something so important, which is that you can have a
family that's like full of love and support and loyalty
and trust in all the things, but still have complex,
(11:19):
even insidious dynamics that impact how you move through the
world and how you see love. And that's sort of
what you were describing, And so perhaps there's a part
of you that saw love as being conditional, that you
had to be perfect or show up in a particular
way in order to be valuable and be worthy of
a certain kind of love. And it's not that your
(11:40):
parents weren't loving, it just happened to be a particular
dynamic because you said, no one comes to parenting with
all the tools. We all have things to learn, and
this was one of your parents perhaps you know, blind
spots or ways that they move through the family dynamics.
So it's really lovely that you've taken the time to
figure out particularly what's going on for you, so you
(12:02):
don't have the compulsion, as I was alluding to before,
to repeat the pattern.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Right, because I feel that that's what happens. You got
And they've all been different, they've all had similarities, and
they've all had differences. But I think that that's really
like the core of the problem, and I just figured
that out. So I am like at peace, I feel
so happy. I'm not even like I'm actually like, I
love that. Finally, you know, at my age, I got
(12:27):
to figure this out because some people go on with
life and they never figure out what triggers them, why
are the way they are? You know, people just like
to say, oh no, because you know you're crazy or
you're this, and you're not.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
No, you're not.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
You know, you just have to find that time, you
make the effort. And I really needed to do this
for myself. So it's a blessing in disguise. You know.
I just wish, you know, would have been earlier. But
you know, now I'm at a great stage you know
in my life. I feel at peace, I have clarity,
you know, I'm confident and I'm feeling good. So yes,
(12:58):
I really courage that for every woman. Honestly, I know
it's a cliche, but you know, you really have to
do it. You really have to do it, and it's uncomfortable.
You have to sit with yourself and you're going to
cry and you're going to read things. But you know,
the more information you know you have, you know, the
better that the better you feel about yourself.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yes, I think often we have a propensity to avoid
that work because there are a lot of tricky feelings
that can come up, including shame and guilt and fear
and anxiety and all the things. And I like to
talk about the notion of integration. Paradoxically, the closer we
go towards those feelings, the more integration that can occur,
(13:40):
and the more we can feel empowered around those feelings.
Meaning they're just a piece of us. They're not all
of us, and they're not something to be afraid of
or to be avoided. They're to be welcomed in with
softness and care. The parts of us that are insecure,
the parts of us that are scared, that are traumatized,
that are fearful, instead of exigning them off where they
(14:02):
RecA it because we don't have control over them, don't
think about them, don't sort of shape them, We bring
them closer. We make friends with those feelings, and we're
able to recognize it as just a small piece of us.
And it's actually a really empowering process. And the way
you were just talking, and you know, I can see
you right now, I can see you embodying that sort
of that feeling state of having done that kind of work.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, And I also feel like I don't know about
other patients that you see. But you know, I feel
like me in particular. I've always liked to fix people
and I and you know what, you cannot fix anyone
that does not want to be fixed and that doesn't
want to change, and change really doesn't happen, especially later
on in life, like at our age, and you have
(14:45):
to fix yourself and save yourself. And you know that's
that's what you know, I've been doing because I feel
like I had that. My mom was a psychiatrist, so
you know, and so I missed her so much because
she was so therapeutic. You know, she's such a great
prior to them, by the way, she got to worce
five times, and she gave able to give great couple therapy,
and she didn't she believed in divorced for herself, but
(15:08):
not for other people. You know, obviously it's very complex.
But and you know, my sister and my brother are
still married because you know, we lived out you know,
we lived in over where my mom was married five times,
so that also impacted us. And but you know, I
missed her a lot, and I did learn so much
from her, and then now I'm actually like putting it
to practice because of that time for myself, and I'm matured.
(15:32):
You know. That's the other thing, you know, you have
to like emotionally mature. You know, some people never do that,
so you stay where you're at.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I really like what you're talking about, which is when
a couple of different concepts. When people show you who
they are, particularly in a romantic contact, you have to
believe them, right, you know, when they show up a
particular way over and over again and show a lack
of capacity or willingness to work through hard times, we
(16:10):
have to believe them. We can't do the heavy lifting
for two people.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
And I love that you use that word capacity because
my mom would always use that word, and my mom
would say, you can't even be mad with the person
or hate them. It's just they do not have the capacity.
Sometimes you have to move on because they do not
have the capacity to love you the way you want
them to love you. So you know, but it's hard,
you know, it's hard when you realize that, and you know,
when there's love and you love the person and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Incredibly painful. It's a very grief filled process to love
someone and recognize they don't have that capacity, that bandwidth
to meet you there and to have to let it
go in the service of finding someone that can. And
it sounds like that's that's where you've arrived. And I'm
curious as you look towards dating now, what are you
(16:56):
looking for? What have you identified as the kind of
partner you want, the love languages that resonate with you.
How do you think of it now?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Well, I'm not there yet. I'm not dating anyone or no,
am I interesting. I'm dating myself. Like, honestly, I feel
so good with just being by myself with my children,
you know, the third young men. But to me, they're
always going to be my kids, and I'm so connected
to them, so now more than ever, I'm you know,
closest to both of them. I've always been close, but
(17:27):
like I said, you know, I feel like because unfortunately
they've seen me and a lot of dumb times in
my life, so they're like, you know, stepping up for me.
So thank goodness that you know that I've had them,
that I have them. But you know, I just feel
good with myself, like I feel good, I'm at peace.
You know, I'm doing things with my family, with my friends,
(17:48):
and that's just like where I am now and.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
When you think about the possibility of a partner in
the future, are you just leaving that too unfold?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
As you know. I mean, it hasn't really doubt for me.
But I'm not giving up on love. Like you know,
I love love, But like now I know what love
has to look like for me, you know. I think before,
you know, I didn't really know what love was.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, and so what so maybe that's the question, what
does it have to look like for you to consider stuffing?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Well, I think for me it just has to be
like I have to you know, And it's not we
have butterflies in your stomach. It's always been for me,
but you know, and I still wanted to be that,
you know, because I love that passion, because I'm very passionate.
But you know, for me, it has to be I
have to feel emotionally safe. Now I know what that means.
I never really knew what that meant, by the way,
(18:43):
so you know, there has to be boundaries, you know,
which I didn't know that word either, And I know,
like you know, thank you, I don't like social media,
but there are some positive things about social media, and
I feel like those things have always existed. We just
didn't have terms for them because all these dew terms
that we talk about now, like I remember my mom
talking about them, but they were called something else. So
(19:03):
you know, now I know what like what I deserve
and what I want. I think before it was like
all over the place because and not because people think, oh,
you know, your life is like a telenobela, and you're like,
you've always had so much chaos and things happen to you.
You know, it's that's what I've been attracted. You know,
that's what I attract. You know, that's what I've attracted
in the past. So it's not like I'm at peace.
(19:24):
I'm like, you know, very like two, I'm good. But
then for whatever reasons in my life I've attracted. I
don't know why I'm attracted to that chaos. I don't
know if it's because it's fun and adventurous or like,
you know what it is. But again, I really do
know what it is now, and it's because I always
see the potential and I like the fact of like
fixing people, like I want to save people, and I'm
(19:46):
tired of saving people, like you know, because at the end,
I have to save myself and that's what I had
to do, and that's what I've always done, right, saved myself.
And yeah, I mean we're here. You know, as a mom,
I can save my children, but I don't think I
should have to save any man.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It's interesting. I think one one emotional fallout of that
savior complex is really a self abandonment. You know, when
you become so focused on helping someone else evolve or
save them from their own toxicity. The only way we
can do that is to yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yes, yourself, absolutely, that's right. And you know what, that's
not real love. And you really think about it, because
if you have to give up like who you are
and your self worth and you know, to save someone else,
and that person you know can't see it, then that
person doesn't deserve you, and you should not want to
be with that person.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Right, And by definition, it lacks reciprocity, right, I mean,
if you're if one is interested in emotional connection and
depth and connection, it can only happen if it's reciprocal.
And so if what is in the savior role and
the other is in the role of sort of intermittently
receiving it, of course that isn't the fertile ground to
(20:59):
build that. So it's really glad we're talking about that
because you have to get pretty conscious about recognizing if
you're in that role of quote saving someone or focusing
on someone's potential versus what they're showing you, because the
outcome inevitably is self abandonment.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
That is true. Yeah, I mean we also have to
be careful with a lot of things. You know. I
feel like nowadays two you know, you you know, women
and men too. I mean we're also empowered, you know,
with all this information. You know, I feel like we
give up sometimes before we should give up. You know,
that's not who I am obviously. You know, people that
(21:39):
know me know that I'm like, I give it my all.
You know, I fight till the end. But you have
to know, you know how much you're going to fight,
you know, and like you said, you can't avangage yourself,
you know, to make you know, somebody else happy that
doesn't really want to be connected and want to do
the work on their part.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah. Yeah, there's couples that work, and how longevity and
sustainable intermittent but sustainable passion really build an intentional, deliberate
skill set around conflict resolution right around, like how do
we deal with hard things? How do we talk about it?
(22:16):
How do we support each other when we have individual
or mutual times of stress? You know, how do we
show up? What is the language we use? How do
we recover from a fracture between us? You really have
to get so deliberate and intentional, because when we're triggered,
all of us, we don't show up as our best selves.
(22:37):
So understanding how we show up when we're triggered, Understanding
how our partner shows up when they're triggered, and building
skills to sort ourselves and each other is critical. And
to your point of folks giving up too early, I
think oftentimes it's related to this topic that if you
haven't curated a way of approaching conflict resolution, it's really
(22:58):
hard to stay together. It can feel quite how.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I feel like that's a problem, Like since the kids
are little, you know that you have to show your kids,
you have to give them those skills, you know, And
I'm guilty as a parent, and I'm sure there's so
many other listeners that are listening to that that we
just resolve everything for them, you know, so they don't
know how to resolve conflict, and I feel that we
also carry it onto our relationships because if you don't
know how to you know, solve certain things when you're
(23:22):
a young person, then as you get older, you carry
it onto everything. You're personal, you're professional. And I think
that that's what happens, you know with the couples. Like
you're saying, like there's no repair after the conflict for
whatever reason. If you had the mom that would stay
quiet at home and the dad would do whatever, you
learn that from your mom, So you're like, Okay, well
maybe I should just stay quiet and not say what
(23:43):
I need to say just to avoid the conflict. So
it's so complicated. It's really complicated. You just have to
both want the same thing and put in time and
the effort and you know, and be able to communicate
and talk about uncomfortable things.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Well, you start to start saying, right, but I'm curious,
what have you learning about your own approach moving forward
around conflict resolution? What what has like tripped you up
in the past, and what do you want to bring
to a new relationship.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Right, Well, I mean I feel like I need to
be maybe a better listener, you know, and not be
like so reactive at the moment, you know, because sometimes
they don't realize that you're reacting to whatever behavior they're
showing you. But you know, I feel like it's important
to know your you know, your spouse or your partner,
(24:32):
whoever you're in a relationship with, you need to know,
you need to know them, you know. I feel like
sometimes we don't know that person enough, so you don't
know how to like navigate. But I feel it's important
that both people do know each other and respect each other.
And like, I've learned so much even about that, about
attachment styles, avoidant, anxious. I'm the anxious one, so I'm
trying not to be so anxious. But you know, so
(24:54):
I've just like done a lot of reading, a lot
of like you know, coaching and and therapy that really,
you know, helped me just be better, you know, not
to be with another man, not to do with anybody else,
but just with myself.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I feel like I'm I've learned a lot, and I'm
very satisfied and grateful that I finally got to a
good you know, to a good space, you know that
I feel good about myself.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, you're talking about such a critical piece, which is
when you're in a partnership understanding the other person's style
during conflict, and that encompasses a lot of things. So
what happens for them when they are in the realm
of conflict? Do they shut down? Do they get more
(25:39):
activated and aggressive? Do they feel vulnerable and fearful of
being abandoned? You know what happens for that person when
they feel threatened through conflict, right, and what happens to
you in the same scenario. And things may be quote complimentary,
or they may work against each other and having converse
(26:00):
stations with your partner outside of the tricky moment. We
don't try to figure this out while.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
We're fighting exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
We figure it out, you know, over a glass of
wine or during a walk on the beach or something
of like, let's really think about what happens for both
of us when we fight. You know, one person says
they might withdraw. The other person says they might get
heightened and activated and a little more aggressive. Like recognizing
that and saying that vulnerably to the other person is
a really good first start and then asking each other, well,
(26:30):
what do you need in that moment? You know, one
person might need a hand on the knee. One person
might need a ten minute pause, One person might need
words of affirmation. One person might need like a code
word that means we still love each other. Right, that
coming up with a process to address each other's sort
of pain points in this moment, in those moments is
(26:51):
really really important. And then figuring out you alluded to
this earlier around how do you self advocate? How do
you say the how do you say this is what
I need, this is what I want, and I'm not
abandoning my need in this moment, but do it in
a digestible way. And I often talk about the difference
between aggression versus advocacy, so critical, Right, we never have
(27:15):
to say I'm not saying what I need, I'm not
saying what I feel, but we should take responsibility for
how we say it. So message is, you know, always
on point in terms of what our needs are, but
the delivery system has to be curated.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I'm working on my delivery. You know, I'm under show
that we all have very poor delivery. Yes, so I'm
definitely working on that. That's very important, and you know,
I feel also it's important to have that partner if
it's going to listen to you and validate that, because
I feel like a lot of women are afraid, you know,
to actually talk about their emotions. You know, I was
one of them in different relationships. I've always suffered from
(27:51):
that too, because you know, I grew up kind of
like even though my mom was a psychiatrist and people
would go to her to say their needs and their
problems and all that, but it was kind of like,
you know, we couldn't really talk about our feelings and
our emotions. So I feel like, you know, the older women,
hopefully their younger generation, they are very you know, out
there and they're very like vocal about, you know, their
(28:11):
feelings and emotions. But you know, I feel like, as
you know, older women do maybe be in situations like that,
whether they're even like afraid, you know, to say anything
because it's either going to create you know, conflict, or
they're not going to be you know, their feelings aren't
going to be validated, or they're just going to say, oh,
I hear, you're overreacting. But whatever, you put up with
it for such long time, right, some people put up
with it for a super long time, and then when
(28:33):
they react, it's like, you know, it's a little too late. Yeah,
it's super important from the beginning right to just be
who you are, say what you need to say, Like
you say, the delivery is important and just you know,
you have to get it off your chest.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yes, I really like to put that under the category
of self advocacy and help people start if it resonates,
starts conceptualizing it is that it really really is it.
It's sharing our feelings, but it's really under the more
holistic umbrella of advocating for ourselves and how we want
to be seen and treated and how we want to
(29:08):
move through the world. And we want to have a
partner that is able to listen to and care about
and respond to our feelings. And our responsibility is to
deliver it in a way that is as I said, digestible.
But their responsibility is to find a way to meet
you there and listen. And that doesn't mean you always
(29:28):
get what you want, but it should mean that more
often than not at least you're getting acknowledged and validated
and really creating that positive feedback loop is like a practice.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Weish thinking for them. This is a two way street.
You know, it's all that we want all this from them,
and you know, we don't give anything in return. No,
you have to reciprocate. We have to do the same
thing for them.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That's right. You know, as we're talking about delivery, the
delivery system by which we share our needs. I just
wanted to offer this. I think it's a really important
relationship hack, which is that obviously none of us are
(30:12):
going to deliver our messaging and our needs in a
perfect way every time. Nobody does that. So what do
we do when we've shown up in a way we
don't feel good about? And you know, I just always
like to offer the idea that like we can always
go back, we can always go back, whether it's five
minutes later, an hour later, or like ten days later,
and sort of say, like, you know, we were talking
(30:33):
about that thing, and like my message was on point,
but like the way I said it to you, I
don't I don't feel good about. You know, I just
wanted to come to you and say I'm really sorry
I raise my voice or have that tone or said
this phrase. That doesn't feel good to you. Right, the
thing I was talking about is still really important to me,
But I'm going to table that for now because I
want you to know I didn't feel good about how
(30:54):
I said it, and that can create a lot of
good will between a couple, and goodwill is such a
critical like fuel for a couple to sustain is to
show up and raise your hand and said, hey, that
was on me, and have that humility and that vulnerability
to do that. And this allows us to not subscribe
(31:15):
to the idea that somehow we always have to get
it right. And so maybe that gives us a little
more confidence to try.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
I love that. Yeah, that's great advice.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, I know it now.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I had to learn in the hard way, but that's
really really good advice.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, I'm curious if I mean, obviously some of your
relationships were were in the public eye or at least
somewhat shown on television.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
All of them, all of them have been on the
public and on TV.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So yeah, yeah, what how did that add to the
complication of your relationships?
Speaker 1 (31:54):
You know, it's been they're all different, but I feel like,
you know, once you're you know, once the public has
you know, access to your to your life or two comments,
you know, and you have that public scrutiny that you know,
it's it just becomes so much more worse if you're
that type of person. You know, I try to not
(32:14):
read comments. I have very thick skin, and I know
who I am, and I actually love who I am,
and I know my family, I know my morals and values.
But you know, I'm going to show where you know,
you don't get to see my whole life story. And
you we're filming for three months, so it's whatever's happening
at the moment, and there's a lot of holes. You know,
it's not the complete story. So people just judge you
(32:34):
or your relationship or your marriage, you know, based on
what they see, which really isn't fair. But you know,
and it's really hard, you know, having to share, you know,
Unfortunately I had to share something very difficult for me
because you know, I love this person. So when you're
in love with the person and it's not it was
just really difficult. It's just really difficult. I try for
it not to affect me because, like I said, I
(32:57):
know the type of relationship you know that I'm in
and that I have, and you know the people, the
men that I've loved, so it's like I don't get
offended by any of that. Yeah, but definitely it's hard
because once you're a public person, like everybody has an
opinion about it, Like everybody talks about Jalo one event.
I'm like, and you read the comments and it's so
like heartbreaking. I'm like, you don't even know these people, like,
you don't even know how can you say something you
(33:19):
know so horrific? You know. Unfortunately, there's a lot of
people in the world with a lot of hate that
don't know what love is. They've never been in a relationship,
they've never had that love. Because no matter what I
was telling all my friends that think and divorce, I'm like,
and they want to talk bad. I'm like, you think
about the good, you know what I mean? There was
also good? You know, that's why you love this man.
So there was also a lot of good. There was
also a lot of love, and you know, that's what
(33:41):
I like to focus on, you know, on the love
of it. But it's definitely hard when you are in
the public eye.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, it seems like you've really come to some version
of a reconciliation with it and are able to not
imbibe all of the public feedback.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Oh yeah, of course absolutely, you know, and there's going
to be people that you know that that like it.
You know that are good life on your favorite people
that are just gonna have an opinion, you know, you
know how that is. But honestly, I really don't let
it affect me. You know, I really do care about,
you know what, my family and my close friends you
know that have been with me and know more my life.
(34:19):
Then they're inside of it, you know, to say something.
But the public that doesn't really know me, that just
se is like a clip for two minutes, you know
on TV. I don't care about what they have to say.
You know, It's my life and I'm going to live
it the way I want to live it. And I'm
a good, kind person and I'm a loving person, and
you know, and that's you know I feel you know,
I feel good about you know, myself and whatever choice is.
(34:41):
You know, I've been.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Such a good example of boundaries. I mean, obviously your
your situation is more on a macro scale, but on
a micro scale for anybody listening, it can be triggering, activating.
We can feel super heightened when we hear people have
feedback about us that doesn't feel good, you know, that
isn't well intentioned. And being able to create an internal
(35:06):
boundary if someone that we love and care about and
trust has feedback that they want to offer in a
kind of respectful way that is very different than someone
doing it in an indirect implicit way or in a
direct aggressive way. And being able to recognize that when
feedback comes through that delivery system, it's not something that
(35:27):
we're responsible to take in in that manner. And really
being able to trust what we know about ourselves and
our intuition about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
So grateful that I am the way that I am,
because it's true, it could really affect a lot of people,
you know, the mental health, because you know, if you're
reading these things like every day, like the comes the
moment that you start believing them, you know. But thank
goodness for me that I'm not affected by, you know,
by those things. But you know, I mean, in general,
(35:54):
going through anything, you know, in the public eye when
you're a public person, just makes it even more painful
and more difficult.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
One thing that I do regularly has work with couples
that are going through divorces, amicable divorces all the way
to super high conflict divorces and co parenting and kiddos
obviously can be an enormously painful, big issue through the
divorce process. How has parenting and your relationship with your
(36:24):
kids evolved through divorces.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I've been very fortunate. So the father of my kids is,
you know, an amazing father, and they always taught a
g re relationship with him. So when I married my
second husband, Herman, he was like their father. Like my
kids would say, I have two fathers. He was such
an incredible stepfather and they were friendly to so my
kids would say, you know, we're so lucky, you know,
(36:47):
we have two dads, you know. So I felt like
they had the best of both worlds because like what
Herman could give them, you know, the dad can't give them,
and when the dad could give them, Herman can give them.
So they literally had two like amazing you know father figures,
you know, in different ways. And you know, and then
when I met Todd, my kids were already older, so
it wasn't like it's different. I feel like it's different
(37:08):
when they're younger than when they're older. And you know,
it just comes to like being like the friend, you
know what I mean, It's just being a friend. So
it's my I've been very lucky when it comes with
the kids, and you know, and the fathers or the
stepfathers if you want to call them, you know, being
you know involved with my kids. It's been about just
like about love and friendship and just you know going
(37:30):
out like nobody is like try to outdo the other,
you know what I mean, Like I just want to
be your friend. I'm not here to you know, to
substitute or take away from your dad. You know, We're
just all want to get along and we all want
to be friends. And that's and that's what it's like.
That that's what it's been. So thank God that I've
had that. So that's made it so much easier because
that's very difficult. I can imagine for a mom.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
It's a really good template and you're right by definition,
it has a catch of being very difficult and confrontative
for all the parties involved, especially the kids. And so
I think when the new person, the new partner and
new stepparent, et cetera, comes into the picture, taking on
the sort of role that you were describing as you know,
(38:14):
a friend, a positive presence, you know, like any community
member might be in a family unit, I think is
a really good place to start, and if it evolves
from there, that's amazing and beautiful and fortunate. And if
it just remains and I put justin quotes because it's amazing,
but as a as a a trust and safe other
that's part of your community, that that's an enormous win
(38:36):
given the scenario.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, I mean, that's very complex, so that we can
talk about all days. Really, it's so like situational, like
it depends on you know, everybody has a different circumstance,
a different situation, you know, backstory, past history. I mean,
it's very you know, but luckily for me, for me
it was it's been very very good.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm aware that your son was
in an accident a number of years back. How is
he sharing me at this point?
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Weok, oh, No, he's twenty eight years old. He's doing amazing.
He has a brain injury, so he suffers from aphasia
and he has a communication disorder. So something like that.
Families that have gone through something like that, it changes
the whole dynamics of your family and of your relationship.
So I was married to herman at the time, and
(39:27):
he couldn't have been better than what he was. He
was an incredible man, and it brought us together as
a family more, but it also created distance in my
relationship with him because Frankie became my priority. I mean,
I didn't you know, I was in a hospital for
almost a year. I came back home and we had
(39:48):
our room upstairs and Frankie had his room downstairs, and
I wanted to see with Frankie. I've never left Frankie's side,
so it's like I didn't realize what I was doing
right like as a woman, because I needed to save
my son. And he was so good that he was
okay with it. You know, he's like, no, you know,
it's okay. I understand, but you know, it's hard. You know,
it's hard being in a situation like that. And unfortunately,
(40:08):
families that have gone through something like that, if they're listening,
they can relate to this. And because you know, you
do become closer in so many ways because we did.
And by the way, with the father too, it's like,
you know, we have the father, the stepfather, and we
became so close. But you know, as a couple, we
became distant because my head was not there. You know,
(40:31):
I just couldn't function and I was afraid that I
slept upstairs and you know, Frank he and the moon downstairs,
anything would happen, I wouldn't hear, so it just you know,
it affected our relationship as a couple eventually.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
I really appreciate you talking about this. It is true
you kind of alluded to this that when a family
system goes through a trauma like that, it can often
result in a divorce because the family system is as
you knew that, it sort of obliteratedcommodate the trauma. I mean,
and as a mother of a young son that you
(41:05):
had another choice. Of of course, you were going to
be by by his side. And you know, I often
called it like the land of bad choices. You're either
not with your son every moment, or you're not tending
to your primary romantic relationship as you want to or should,
and you have to prioritize your son, who's ailing at
(41:25):
that time. But it's I'm glad we're having this dialogue because,
like you were mentioning, of course you're in trauma, you're
in crisis. You're not reflecting on the impact.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
My whole family was affected. I wasn't even focusing on
my son Peter that also was crying out for help.
It's like your whole family falls apart.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
That's right. And look, when trauma happens, it's going to
have an impact and there's nothing we can do to
pre prepare for it. But I like that we're talking
about it because when someone is going through a chronic trauma,
like I imagine you were, because the recovery I'm sure was extensive,
you know, being able to include in your paradigm eventually
(42:03):
when your system returns somewhat from fight or flight around like,
what's happening to our overall family system? And how can
I attend to it?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And it wasn't even his biological son, even though he
for him it was like his son, like Frankie was
his son, but you know, so he was so good
that it wasn't even like his biological son. And he
was there just like the goad and you know, and
that's not what we got divorced, you know. But like
I said, when it was time to focus on my marriage,
it was kind of like too late, yeah, because you know,
(42:31):
I had saved Frankie. You know, I had saved my
other son, Peter. I was trying to save my I
had to save him. I was like, okay, like what
about me? You know what I mean, it was like
it was it was too too much. Yeah, And I've
never gone to therapy that like fixed myself, like oh my,
you know, like the kind of therapy. Actually just went
to therapy once after my father passed away. That was
(42:54):
really the first time in my life and it was
really difficult. I was twenty three years old and I yeah,
that to me was very very bad. It was my
first trauma and that was really the only time that
my mom's like I can't even help you, like I
need to send you to psychiatrists and and whatnot. But
back in the day didn't want that many therapists. There
was more psychiatrists. You know, they would medicate you, which
(43:15):
you know, my mom didn't want, so we never really
did that. But it was it was tough.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
I'm I'm struck and impressed by your ability to self
reflect and your level of insight. Not that therapy is
the only way to get there, it's not, but you've
really done some extensive, intentional, deliberate work. It's obvious from
the way that you're talking about it.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Well, thank you all. I like, if I would have
met you, then maybe I would have gone to you,
because I like it if you got back to me,
I feel like I've gone I have tried it, but
I felt like I go talk to Hillary and then
I'm like pouring like my heart out and just talking
and saying then it's you kind of like going back
to that pain right that you lived and I don't
(43:59):
want to we visit that pain again. I was there,
I suffered it, I write about it, so I feel
like I'm on the other side. And then, you know,
we they want to know like since you started your childhood,
what do you you know? And to me, I don't
see like progress, And then I haven't had somebody like
you that you know that communicates. Also like you're giving
me you know, it's a conversation. You know. I feel
(44:19):
like they're just like writing you want to know everything
about me? And then I'm like, okay, well do you
have anything to say, like what's wrong with me? Like
how can you help me? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Yeah, you know, I'm actually really glad you're saying that,
because I think one thing that you need to speaking
about advocacy. You really need to be an advocate for yourself.
If you're interested in therapy and you're pursuing a therapeutic connection,
that interviewing therapists is okay and recommend it. You know,
you really want to find someone that resonates with your
(44:50):
particular style and that feels right, as you just alluded
to you. Obviously, the goal is to go into things
that are hard and painful, and there's quote right way
for a therapist to operate, I mean, except obvious limits.
But finding someone that works the way that makes you
feel the most comfortable is really important. And interviewing one, two, three,
(45:13):
four therapists is not only okay but recommend until you
find someone that resonates. So I'm actually glad you brought
that up.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I'm happy to know that.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
I'm so glad that we got to talk today again. Yes,
I hope we get to do another check and sometime soon.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I feel like we need to. Now I'm more thank
you for making me feel comfortable, and it was really
nice talking to you.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
It was really nice talking to you too, Okay.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Doctor Hillary. This has been incredible for me just to
have a conversation and to get more clarity on what
is important in life, what's important in my life, what's
important in all you listeners that are listening, what's important
in your life? Are you wanting to get clear on
what you want and deserving your next relationship. We can
help with that. Call us or email us. All the
(46:03):
information is in the show notes. Follow us on socials.
Make sure to rate and review the podcasts I Do
Part two and iHeart podcasts. Or falling in love is
the main objective
Welcome back to I Do Part two. I'm one of
your celebrity mentors, Alexinapola from the Real Houses of Miami,
and today I wanted to check in with someone I've
had on the podcast before. She's a psychologist who does
extensive work in the area of relationships, helping couples as
well as individuals in all areas of life before marriage,
(00:36):
during the marriage, separated, divorced, and high conflict divorce. Today,
it's kind of like I'm getting my own private session.
I don't know about that. I am a little bit scared.
I'm not gonna lie. But once again, Hi, doctor Hillary.
It's so nice to see you again.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Nice to see you again too. I'm glad we could
come back together to chat.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yes, I'm a little scared. I'm a little free because
this is I feel like this is like a live
session with like a lot of people, and I'm used
to like private sessions.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, hopefully you'll make me feel, you know, at ease
and calm and not nervous, and I can open up
as much as I need to.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah. Well, I mean ground rules for any session, whether
other people are listening or not, is to only go
towards places that feel safe and comfortable. And you know,
I always like to think of it as like the
just right challenge. You can like go as far as
you think it's comfortable with just maybe pushing yourself a
little bit in terms of vulnerability and exposure for the
(01:39):
purposes of growth. But I got you. I'll make sure
that it feels okay and look out for signs if.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's not okay. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Last time we met, we were talking a lot about
dating and relationships, and I'd love to get sort of
a state of the union in terms of where you
are and if that still remains kind of a a
central theme for you.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, I feel like relationships have always been a big
part of my life. I feel like I've been married
my whole adult life, so as I said, for me,
they've always been important. But this time that I've been
on my own has honestly been so good for me.
I've discovered so much about myself and so much self
(02:23):
awareness and self love, and you know, just reflecting on why,
you know, my adult life and my adult relationships have
been the way that they've been, you know, I want
to see only the positive because I am an optimistic
and I continue to believe in love and I think
that that's one of my things that I love to heart.
But you know, I'm also proud of it. You know,
(02:44):
I don't want to change, you know. I like the
way I am. I'm just, like I said, more confident,
I know what I want, I know myself worth. You know,
sometimes it's you know, it's scary to be alone, and
I think it's not because you need that male partner.
You just don't know any other way of being, which
is kind of like, you know, my adult life that
have always been in a relationship and married.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting. I work with a
lot of female clients who talk about this sort of
I don't know, internal and also societal dilemma of like
wanting to love love, wanting to be in love, wanting
a partnership, and this pull around whether or not that's
an okay thing or an empowered thing, or a sign
(03:27):
of weakness. And I love that you're identifying and owning
with the desire for connection and partnership. I think that's
amazing and lovely and not only should there not be
shame in it, we should be able to identify and
declear that for ourselves. It is part of why we
exist is to be in connection and community with other people,
(03:47):
and romantic love is an enormous part of that. And
so I think for you leaning into that is lovely
and amazing. It's just trying to and it's a big
thing and a big pursuit of trying to tease out
what parts of that process have not worked for you,
you know, what parts of that process has led you
to relationships that ultimately aren't resident and to think about
(04:12):
continuously how you want to show up differently or more
expansively moving forward. So I'm curious how that process has
been and if that process has expanded since you've been alone.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Well, I mean, for me, love has always been It's
so my relationships have never ended because of lack of love.
And that's very important, you know, to distinguish, because I
feel like a lot of relationships either go apart or
you love each other, but not like in a romantic
or passionate way, and you know, you just don't, you know,
you're not in love anymore. But you know, my all
(04:43):
my relationships have been filled with lots of love, and
that's why I think I still hold on to that,
you know, to the idea of love because I know
how important love is and how great you can be
if you love the right way and you receive the
love back in the same way. So yeah, that's why
I'm still you know, happy and you know, and optimistic,
and I believe that everybody should be. Like, my happiness
(05:06):
doesn't depend on that person or on the relationship, because
I've always been a happy person. You know, I just
want that person to compliment, you know, my world, and
you know, to compliment me and to make me feel
emotionally safe and to be at peace. And you know,
I feel like we love differently in different stages of
our lives. And that's the stage that I'm at now.
(05:26):
I mean, I feel like I have all these tools
now with like being older and all the lessons that
have gone through and have so much wisdom that like
I feel like I'm I'm ready now. I wish I
would have had all these tools, you know, back in
the day, and maybe I would still be married, you know.
To The first to follow is because you know, I
feel like a lot of times, you know, you don't
(05:47):
have those tools, especially if you're you know, you're younger
like I was.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
What are sort of the tools that you've curated that
make you feel more solid now. And then part two
of my question is where are the arenas if any
of deficits where you still feel like you need to
shore up to be prepared and ready for connection.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well, I mean, I feel like a lot of the
deficit that I had previously, you know, in the past,
besides you know, being younger and you know, naive not
knowing so much about myself was this time around. I
really dove into myself and into just finding out why
I am the way I am and why my relationships
(06:31):
were going maybe not the way I wanted them to go.
So I found out a lot about you know, they
call it now childhood trauma, but you know, I want
to call it like childhood experience. You know, like your
parents did the best that they could, and you know,
my parents loved me tremendously, but you know, I do
now realize that I did have childhood trauma. My parents
(06:53):
were divorced. That had a lot to do with it.
I feel like my parents had, especially my father, was
a love that was like conditional, like if I was
a good girl and I got eight pluses and I
you know, and I never got in trouble and I was,
you know, like you know, doing amazing in school and
at home and behave and respect. So they would give
(07:15):
me everything, you know, either materialistic wise, or they would
show me love. But the moment that I got in
trouble where I did something that they didn't like or
didn't align with their values, they would punish me, and
they would punish me by withdrawing that love and affection.
So in a way I thought it was okay because
it was my dad and he can do it. But
then I feel like I've had that pattern with men
(07:37):
in my life as well, that I think it's you know,
it's okay. So I found out a lot this time
because I've had I've given time to myself. I feel
like a lot of women when you know, we go
through these you know, separations if you want to call them,
you know, from our spouses. We we never really do
work in ourselves, you know. We either start going out
with our friends, we start drinking, we start you know,
(07:58):
doing things that really but we shouldn't really be doing
to deal with the pain instead of grieving it, you know,
and sitting with yourself, reading the books, talking to life
coaches and this time, I really did it for myself,
and other times I've never given myself that time a
bond from one relationship to the other. And I feel
like a lot of women do that because of different reasons, right,
(08:19):
not only because all we're scared to be alone or like,
you know, I know that a lot of people say that.
For me, it wasn't that. For me, it was just
a way of like trying to fall that find that
love again, right, like, so it could replace what I
had before, you know, with the new person.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah. There, You're alluding to some important concepts. But one
thing in my world we call repetition compulsion, right, And
when we have a version of childhood traumas you alluded to,
childhood experiences that were tricky or difficult to absorb and
created certain patterns or beliefs about ourselves, we have an
(08:53):
internal edict to repeat that pattern repetition compulsion, in order
to potentially get a different outcome. So if we had
a withholding father or a father that loved with condition
or loved in a way that was sort of true.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
That it was okay. I mean, I'm saying I got
so much love. I think I got so much love.
I grew up in an environment that was very like
with My dad adored us. But that's the way that
he showed us. He showed me his love. Yes, know
that he would have killed for us, like my mother
and father literally spent other life fighting for us to
hillary because there were both doctors that were both divorced.
They both wanted us to live with them, so it
(09:29):
was all they spent other lives fighting for our love.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And then I had a very nurturing grandmother. Thank god,
I might were Cuban descent. So my grandmother was like
the mother and our family, and she gave up her
life from my sister and I my brother, so she
gave us all the love no matter what we did
wrong or not. You know, she would still, you know,
give us that love that we needed and wanted. So
you know, it was never like lack of love. I
(09:54):
think because our parents didn't have both tools either. So
now I like overcompensate. Not with my kids. I'm like,
I give them so much love, you know, but in
a different way, you know, I show them even if
they mess up, I still got you, I still love you,
I still give you a kiss. I'm may be mad
at you, but I'm still going to tell you I
love you, and I'm still going to give you that
hug that they need. So I heard a lot from that.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, you're talking with such an important kind of nuanced
component and family systems, which is your your family. It
sounds like was filled with so much love. You understood
you were loved, You understood that your parents did everything
for you, work to support you, and once you grow
and expand, and the other thing that was true at
the same time is there was some tricky dynamics that
(10:38):
had you thinking about yourself and about love in certain
ways that impacted you moving forward. And so it's interesting
that people who come from childhood's where there wasn't traumas
people often say with like a capital tee, there's nothing
like identifiable that happened, sort of feel like, well, wait,
what's wrong with me? Why am I not getting relationships right?
(10:58):
Nothing really happened to me, and as a result, have
a hard time understanding how they move through relationships at
times to their own detriment. And so you're bringing up
something so important, which is that you can have a
family that's like full of love and support and loyalty
and trust in all the things, but still have complex,
(11:19):
even insidious dynamics that impact how you move through the
world and how you see love. And that's sort of
what you were describing, And so perhaps there's a part
of you that saw love as being conditional, that you
had to be perfect or show up in a particular
way in order to be valuable and be worthy of
a certain kind of love. And it's not that your
(11:40):
parents weren't loving, it just happened to be a particular
dynamic because you said, no one comes to parenting with
all the tools. We all have things to learn, and
this was one of your parents perhaps you know, blind
spots or ways that they move through the family dynamics.
So it's really lovely that you've taken the time to
figure out particularly what's going on for you, so you
(12:02):
don't have the compulsion, as I was alluding to before,
to repeat the pattern.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Right, because I feel that that's what happens. You got
And they've all been different, they've all had similarities, and
they've all had differences. But I think that that's really
like the core of the problem, and I just figured
that out. So I am like at peace, I feel
so happy. I'm not even like I'm actually like, I
love that. Finally, you know, at my age, I got
(12:27):
to figure this out because some people go on with
life and they never figure out what triggers them, why
are the way they are? You know, people just like
to say, oh no, because you know you're crazy or
you're this, and you're not.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
No, you're not.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
You know, you just have to find that time, you
make the effort. And I really needed to do this
for myself. So it's a blessing in disguise. You know.
I just wish, you know, would have been earlier. But
you know, now I'm at a great stage you know
in my life. I feel at peace, I have clarity,
you know, I'm confident and I'm feeling good. So yes,
(12:58):
I really courage that for every woman. Honestly, I know
it's a cliche, but you know, you really have to
do it. You really have to do it, and it's uncomfortable.
You have to sit with yourself and you're going to
cry and you're going to read things. But you know,
the more information you know you have, you know, the
better that the better you feel about yourself.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yes, I think often we have a propensity to avoid
that work because there are a lot of tricky feelings
that can come up, including shame and guilt and fear
and anxiety and all the things. And I like to
talk about the notion of integration. Paradoxically, the closer we
go towards those feelings, the more integration that can occur,
(13:40):
and the more we can feel empowered around those feelings.
Meaning they're just a piece of us. They're not all
of us, and they're not something to be afraid of
or to be avoided. They're to be welcomed in with
softness and care. The parts of us that are insecure,
the parts of us that are scared, that are traumatized,
that are fearful, instead of exigning them off where they
(14:02):
RecA it because we don't have control over them, don't
think about them, don't sort of shape them, We bring
them closer. We make friends with those feelings, and we're
able to recognize it as just a small piece of us.
And it's actually a really empowering process. And the way
you were just talking, and you know, I can see
you right now, I can see you embodying that sort
of that feeling state of having done that kind of work.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, And I also feel like I don't know about
other patients that you see. But you know, I feel
like me in particular. I've always liked to fix people
and I and you know what, you cannot fix anyone
that does not want to be fixed and that doesn't
want to change, and change really doesn't happen, especially later
on in life, like at our age, and you have
(14:45):
to fix yourself and save yourself. And you know that's
that's what you know, I've been doing because I feel
like I had that. My mom was a psychiatrist, so
you know, and so I missed her so much because
she was so therapeutic. You know, she's such a great
prior to them, by the way, she got to worce
five times, and she gave able to give great couple therapy,
and she didn't she believed in divorced for herself, but
(15:08):
not for other people. You know, obviously it's very complex.
But and you know, my sister and my brother are
still married because you know, we lived out you know,
we lived in over where my mom was married five times,
so that also impacted us. And but you know, I
missed her a lot, and I did learn so much
from her, and then now I'm actually like putting it
to practice because of that time for myself, and I'm matured.
(15:32):
You know. That's the other thing, you know, you have
to like emotionally mature. You know, some people never do that,
so you stay where you're at.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I really like what you're talking about, which is when
a couple of different concepts. When people show you who
they are, particularly in a romantic contact, you have to
believe them, right, you know, when they show up a
particular way over and over again and show a lack
of capacity or willingness to work through hard times, we
(16:10):
have to believe them. We can't do the heavy lifting
for two people.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
And I love that you use that word capacity because
my mom would always use that word, and my mom
would say, you can't even be mad with the person
or hate them. It's just they do not have the capacity.
Sometimes you have to move on because they do not
have the capacity to love you the way you want
them to love you. So you know, but it's hard,
you know, it's hard when you realize that, and you know,
when there's love and you love the person and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Incredibly painful. It's a very grief filled process to love
someone and recognize they don't have that capacity, that bandwidth
to meet you there and to have to let it
go in the service of finding someone that can. And
it sounds like that's that's where you've arrived. And I'm
curious as you look towards dating now, what are you
(16:56):
looking for? What have you identified as the kind of
partner you want, the love languages that resonate with you.
How do you think of it now?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Well, I'm not there yet. I'm not dating anyone or no,
am I interesting. I'm dating myself. Like, honestly, I feel
so good with just being by myself with my children,
you know, the third young men. But to me, they're
always going to be my kids, and I'm so connected
to them, so now more than ever, I'm you know,
closest to both of them. I've always been close, but
(17:27):
like I said, you know, I feel like because unfortunately
they've seen me and a lot of dumb times in
my life, so they're like, you know, stepping up for me.
So thank goodness that you know that I've had them,
that I have them. But you know, I just feel
good with myself, like I feel good, I'm at peace.
You know, I'm doing things with my family, with my friends,
(17:48):
and that's just like where I am now and.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
When you think about the possibility of a partner in
the future, are you just leaving that too unfold?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
As you know. I mean, it hasn't really doubt for me.
But I'm not giving up on love. Like you know,
I love love, But like now I know what love
has to look like for me, you know. I think before,
you know, I didn't really know what love was.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, and so what so maybe that's the question, what
does it have to look like for you to consider stuffing?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Well, I think for me it just has to be
like I have to you know, And it's not we
have butterflies in your stomach. It's always been for me,
but you know, and I still wanted to be that,
you know, because I love that passion, because I'm very passionate.
But you know, for me, it has to be I
have to feel emotionally safe. Now I know what that means.
I never really knew what that meant, by the way,
(18:43):
so you know, there has to be boundaries, you know,
which I didn't know that word either, And I know,
like you know, thank you, I don't like social media,
but there are some positive things about social media, and
I feel like those things have always existed. We just
didn't have terms for them because all these dew terms
that we talk about now, like I remember my mom
talking about them, but they were called something else. So
(19:03):
you know, now I know what like what I deserve
and what I want. I think before it was like
all over the place because and not because people think, oh,
you know, your life is like a telenobela, and you're like,
you've always had so much chaos and things happen to you.
You know, it's that's what I've been attracted. You know,
that's what I attract. You know, that's what I've attracted
in the past. So it's not like I'm at peace.
(19:24):
I'm like, you know, very like two, I'm good. But
then for whatever reasons in my life I've attracted. I
don't know why I'm attracted to that chaos. I don't
know if it's because it's fun and adventurous or like,
you know what it is. But again, I really do
know what it is now, and it's because I always
see the potential and I like the fact of like
fixing people, like I want to save people, and I'm
(19:46):
tired of saving people, like you know, because at the end,
I have to save myself and that's what I had
to do, and that's what I've always done, right, saved myself.
And yeah, I mean we're here. You know, as a mom,
I can save my children, but I don't think I
should have to save any man.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It's interesting. I think one one emotional fallout of that
savior complex is really a self abandonment. You know, when
you become so focused on helping someone else evolve or
save them from their own toxicity. The only way we
can do that is to yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yes, yourself, absolutely, that's right. And you know what, that's
not real love. And you really think about it, because
if you have to give up like who you are
and your self worth and you know, to save someone else,
and that person you know can't see it, then that
person doesn't deserve you, and you should not want to
be with that person.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Right, And by definition, it lacks reciprocity, right, I mean,
if you're if one is interested in emotional connection and
depth and connection, it can only happen if it's reciprocal.
And so if what is in the savior role and
the other is in the role of sort of intermittently
receiving it, of course that isn't the fertile ground to
(20:59):
build that. So it's really glad we're talking about that
because you have to get pretty conscious about recognizing if
you're in that role of quote saving someone or focusing
on someone's potential versus what they're showing you, because the
outcome inevitably is self abandonment.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
That is true. Yeah, I mean we also have to
be careful with a lot of things. You know. I
feel like nowadays two you know, you you know, women
and men too. I mean we're also empowered, you know,
with all this information. You know, I feel like we
give up sometimes before we should give up. You know,
that's not who I am obviously. You know, people that
(21:39):
know me know that I'm like, I give it my all.
You know, I fight till the end. But you have
to know, you know how much you're going to fight,
you know, and like you said, you can't avangage yourself,
you know, to make you know, somebody else happy that
doesn't really want to be connected and want to do
the work on their part.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah. Yeah, there's couples that work, and how longevity and
sustainable intermittent but sustainable passion really build an intentional, deliberate
skill set around conflict resolution right around, like how do
we deal with hard things? How do we talk about it?
(22:16):
How do we support each other when we have individual
or mutual times of stress? You know, how do we
show up? What is the language we use? How do
we recover from a fracture between us? You really have
to get so deliberate and intentional, because when we're triggered,
all of us, we don't show up as our best selves.
(22:37):
So understanding how we show up when we're triggered, Understanding
how our partner shows up when they're triggered, and building
skills to sort ourselves and each other is critical. And
to your point of folks giving up too early, I
think oftentimes it's related to this topic that if you
haven't curated a way of approaching conflict resolution, it's really
(22:58):
hard to stay together. It can feel quite how.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I feel like that's a problem, Like since the kids
are little, you know that you have to show your kids,
you have to give them those skills, you know, And
I'm guilty as a parent, and I'm sure there's so
many other listeners that are listening to that that we
just resolve everything for them, you know, so they don't
know how to resolve conflict, and I feel that we
also carry it onto our relationships because if you don't
know how to you know, solve certain things when you're
(23:22):
a young person, then as you get older, you carry
it onto everything. You're personal, you're professional. And I think
that that's what happens, you know with the couples. Like
you're saying, like there's no repair after the conflict for
whatever reason. If you had the mom that would stay
quiet at home and the dad would do whatever, you
learn that from your mom, So you're like, Okay, well
maybe I should just stay quiet and not say what
(23:43):
I need to say just to avoid the conflict. So
it's so complicated. It's really complicated. You just have to
both want the same thing and put in time and
the effort and you know, and be able to communicate
and talk about uncomfortable things.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Well, you start to start saying, right, but I'm curious,
what have you learning about your own approach moving forward
around conflict resolution? What what has like tripped you up
in the past, and what do you want to bring
to a new relationship.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Right, Well, I mean I feel like I need to
be maybe a better listener, you know, and not be
like so reactive at the moment, you know, because sometimes
they don't realize that you're reacting to whatever behavior they're
showing you. But you know, I feel like it's important
to know your you know, your spouse or your partner,
(24:32):
whoever you're in a relationship with, you need to know,
you need to know them, you know. I feel like
sometimes we don't know that person enough, so you don't
know how to like navigate. But I feel it's important
that both people do know each other and respect each other.
And like, I've learned so much even about that, about
attachment styles, avoidant, anxious. I'm the anxious one, so I'm
trying not to be so anxious. But you know, so
(24:54):
I've just like done a lot of reading, a lot
of like you know, coaching and and therapy that really,
you know, helped me just be better, you know, not
to be with another man, not to do with anybody else,
but just with myself.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I feel like I'm I've learned a lot, and I'm
very satisfied and grateful that I finally got to a
good you know, to a good space, you know that
I feel good about myself.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, you're talking about such a critical piece, which is
when you're in a partnership understanding the other person's style
during conflict, and that encompasses a lot of things. So
what happens for them when they are in the realm
of conflict? Do they shut down? Do they get more
(25:39):
activated and aggressive? Do they feel vulnerable and fearful of
being abandoned? You know what happens for that person when
they feel threatened through conflict, right, and what happens to
you in the same scenario. And things may be quote complimentary,
or they may work against each other and having converse
(26:00):
stations with your partner outside of the tricky moment. We
don't try to figure this out while.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
We're fighting exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
We figure it out, you know, over a glass of
wine or during a walk on the beach or something
of like, let's really think about what happens for both
of us when we fight. You know, one person says
they might withdraw. The other person says they might get
heightened and activated and a little more aggressive. Like recognizing
that and saying that vulnerably to the other person is
a really good first start and then asking each other, well,
(26:30):
what do you need in that moment? You know, one
person might need a hand on the knee. One person
might need a ten minute pause, One person might need
words of affirmation. One person might need like a code
word that means we still love each other. Right, that
coming up with a process to address each other's sort
of pain points in this moment, in those moments is
(26:51):
really really important. And then figuring out you alluded to
this earlier around how do you self advocate? How do
you say the how do you say this is what
I need, this is what I want, and I'm not
abandoning my need in this moment, but do it in
a digestible way. And I often talk about the difference
between aggression versus advocacy, so critical, Right, we never have
(27:15):
to say I'm not saying what I need, I'm not
saying what I feel, but we should take responsibility for
how we say it. So message is, you know, always
on point in terms of what our needs are, but
the delivery system has to be curated.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I'm working on my delivery. You know, I'm under show
that we all have very poor delivery. Yes, so I'm
definitely working on that. That's very important, and you know,
I feel also it's important to have that partner if
it's going to listen to you and validate that, because
I feel like a lot of women are afraid, you know,
to actually talk about their emotions. You know, I was
one of them in different relationships. I've always suffered from
(27:51):
that too, because you know, I grew up kind of
like even though my mom was a psychiatrist and people
would go to her to say their needs and their
problems and all that, but it was kind of like,
you know, we couldn't really talk about our feelings and
our emotions. So I feel like, you know, the older women,
hopefully their younger generation, they are very you know, out
there and they're very like vocal about, you know, their
(28:11):
feelings and emotions. But you know, I feel like, as
you know, older women do maybe be in situations like that,
whether they're even like afraid, you know, to say anything
because it's either going to create you know, conflict, or
they're not going to be you know, their feelings aren't
going to be validated, or they're just going to say, oh,
I hear, you're overreacting. But whatever, you put up with
it for such long time, right, some people put up
with it for a super long time, and then when
(28:33):
they react, it's like, you know, it's a little too late. Yeah,
it's super important from the beginning right to just be
who you are, say what you need to say, Like
you say, the delivery is important and just you know,
you have to get it off your chest.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yes, I really like to put that under the category
of self advocacy and help people start if it resonates,
starts conceptualizing it is that it really really is it.
It's sharing our feelings, but it's really under the more
holistic umbrella of advocating for ourselves and how we want
to be seen and treated and how we want to
(29:08):
move through the world. And we want to have a
partner that is able to listen to and care about
and respond to our feelings. And our responsibility is to
deliver it in a way that is as I said, digestible.
But their responsibility is to find a way to meet
you there and listen. And that doesn't mean you always
(29:28):
get what you want, but it should mean that more
often than not at least you're getting acknowledged and validated
and really creating that positive feedback loop is like a practice.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Weish thinking for them. This is a two way street.
You know, it's all that we want all this from them,
and you know, we don't give anything in return. No,
you have to reciprocate. We have to do the same
thing for them.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That's right. You know, as we're talking about delivery, the
delivery system by which we share our needs. I just
wanted to offer this. I think it's a really important
relationship hack, which is that obviously none of us are
(30:12):
going to deliver our messaging and our needs in a
perfect way every time. Nobody does that. So what do
we do when we've shown up in a way we
don't feel good about? And you know, I just always
like to offer the idea that like we can always
go back, we can always go back, whether it's five
minutes later, an hour later, or like ten days later,
and sort of say, like, you know, we were talking
(30:33):
about that thing, and like my message was on point,
but like the way I said it to you, I
don't I don't feel good about. You know, I just
wanted to come to you and say I'm really sorry
I raise my voice or have that tone or said
this phrase. That doesn't feel good to you. Right, the
thing I was talking about is still really important to me,
But I'm going to table that for now because I
want you to know I didn't feel good about how
(30:54):
I said it, and that can create a lot of
good will between a couple, and goodwill is such a
critical like fuel for a couple to sustain is to
show up and raise your hand and said, hey, that
was on me, and have that humility and that vulnerability
to do that. And this allows us to not subscribe
(31:15):
to the idea that somehow we always have to get
it right. And so maybe that gives us a little
more confidence to try.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
I love that. Yeah, that's great advice.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, I know it now.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I had to learn in the hard way, but that's
really really good advice.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, I'm curious if I mean, obviously some of your
relationships were were in the public eye or at least
somewhat shown on television.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
All of them, all of them have been on the
public and on TV.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So yeah, yeah, what how did that add to the
complication of your relationships?
Speaker 1 (31:54):
You know, it's been they're all different, but I feel like,
you know, once you're you know, once the public has
you know, access to your to your life or two comments,
you know, and you have that public scrutiny that you know,
it's it just becomes so much more worse if you're
that type of person. You know, I try to not
(32:14):
read comments. I have very thick skin, and I know
who I am, and I actually love who I am,
and I know my family, I know my morals and values.
But you know, I'm going to show where you know,
you don't get to see my whole life story. And
you we're filming for three months, so it's whatever's happening
at the moment, and there's a lot of holes. You know,
it's not the complete story. So people just judge you
(32:34):
or your relationship or your marriage, you know, based on
what they see, which really isn't fair. But you know,
and it's really hard, you know, having to share, you know,
Unfortunately I had to share something very difficult for me
because you know, I love this person. So when you're
in love with the person and it's not it was
just really difficult. It's just really difficult. I try for
it not to affect me because, like I said, I
(32:57):
know the type of relationship you know that I'm in
and that I have, and you know the people, the
men that I've loved, so it's like I don't get
offended by any of that. Yeah, but definitely it's hard
because once you're a public person, like everybody has an
opinion about it, Like everybody talks about Jalo one event.
I'm like, and you read the comments and it's so
like heartbreaking. I'm like, you don't even know these people, like,
you don't even know how can you say something you
(33:19):
know so horrific? You know. Unfortunately, there's a lot of
people in the world with a lot of hate that
don't know what love is. They've never been in a relationship,
they've never had that love. Because no matter what I
was telling all my friends that think and divorce, I'm like,
and they want to talk bad. I'm like, you think
about the good, you know what I mean? There was
also good? You know, that's why you love this man.
So there was also a lot of good. There was
also a lot of love, and you know, that's what
(33:41):
I like to focus on, you know, on the love
of it. But it's definitely hard when you are in
the public eye.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, it seems like you've really come to some version
of a reconciliation with it and are able to not
imbibe all of the public feedback.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Oh yeah, of course absolutely, you know, and there's going
to be people that you know that that like it.
You know that are good life on your favorite people
that are just gonna have an opinion, you know, you
know how that is. But honestly, I really don't let
it affect me. You know, I really do care about,
you know what, my family and my close friends you
know that have been with me and know more my life.
(34:19):
Then they're inside of it, you know, to say something.
But the public that doesn't really know me, that just
se is like a clip for two minutes, you know
on TV. I don't care about what they have to say.
You know, It's my life and I'm going to live
it the way I want to live it. And I'm
a good, kind person and I'm a loving person, and
you know, and that's you know I feel you know,
I feel good about you know, myself and whatever choice is.
(34:41):
You know, I've been.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Such a good example of boundaries. I mean, obviously your
your situation is more on a macro scale, but on
a micro scale for anybody listening, it can be triggering, activating.
We can feel super heightened when we hear people have
feedback about us that doesn't feel good, you know, that
isn't well intentioned. And being able to create an internal
(35:06):
boundary if someone that we love and care about and
trust has feedback that they want to offer in a
kind of respectful way that is very different than someone
doing it in an indirect implicit way or in a
direct aggressive way. And being able to recognize that when
feedback comes through that delivery system, it's not something that
(35:27):
we're responsible to take in in that manner. And really
being able to trust what we know about ourselves and
our intuition about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
So grateful that I am the way that I am,
because it's true, it could really affect a lot of people,
you know, the mental health, because you know, if you're
reading these things like every day, like the comes the
moment that you start believing them, you know. But thank
goodness for me that I'm not affected by, you know,
by those things. But you know, I mean, in general,
(35:54):
going through anything, you know, in the public eye when
you're a public person, just makes it even more painful
and more difficult.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
One thing that I do regularly has work with couples
that are going through divorces, amicable divorces all the way
to super high conflict divorces and co parenting and kiddos
obviously can be an enormously painful, big issue through the
divorce process. How has parenting and your relationship with your
(36:24):
kids evolved through divorces.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I've been very fortunate. So the father of my kids is,
you know, an amazing father, and they always taught a
g re relationship with him. So when I married my
second husband, Herman, he was like their father. Like my
kids would say, I have two fathers. He was such
an incredible stepfather and they were friendly to so my
kids would say, you know, we're so lucky, you know,
(36:47):
we have two dads, you know. So I felt like
they had the best of both worlds because like what
Herman could give them, you know, the dad can't give them,
and when the dad could give them, Herman can give them.
So they literally had two like amazing you know father figures,
you know, in different ways. And you know, and then
when I met Todd, my kids were already older, so
it wasn't like it's different. I feel like it's different
(37:08):
when they're younger than when they're older. And you know,
it just comes to like being like the friend, you
know what I mean, It's just being a friend. So
it's my I've been very lucky when it comes with
the kids, and you know, and the fathers or the
stepfathers if you want to call them, you know, being
you know involved with my kids. It's been about just
like about love and friendship and just you know going
(37:30):
out like nobody is like try to outdo the other,
you know what I mean, Like I just want to
be your friend. I'm not here to you know, to
substitute or take away from your dad. You know, We're
just all want to get along and we all want
to be friends. And that's and that's what it's like.
That that's what it's been. So thank God that I've
had that. So that's made it so much easier because
that's very difficult. I can imagine for a mom.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
It's a really good template and you're right by definition,
it has a catch of being very difficult and confrontative
for all the parties involved, especially the kids. And so
I think when the new person, the new partner and
new stepparent, et cetera, comes into the picture, taking on
the sort of role that you were describing as you know,
(38:14):
a friend, a positive presence, you know, like any community
member might be in a family unit, I think is
a really good place to start, and if it evolves
from there, that's amazing and beautiful and fortunate. And if
it just remains and I put justin quotes because it's amazing,
but as a as a a trust and safe other
that's part of your community, that that's an enormous win
(38:36):
given the scenario.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, I mean, that's very complex, so that we can
talk about all days. Really, it's so like situational, like
it depends on you know, everybody has a different circumstance,
a different situation, you know, backstory, past history. I mean,
it's very you know, but luckily for me, for me
it was it's been very very good.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm aware that your son was
in an accident a number of years back. How is
he sharing me at this point?
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Weok, oh, No, he's twenty eight years old. He's doing amazing.
He has a brain injury, so he suffers from aphasia
and he has a communication disorder. So something like that.
Families that have gone through something like that, it changes
the whole dynamics of your family and of your relationship.
So I was married to herman at the time, and
(39:27):
he couldn't have been better than what he was. He
was an incredible man, and it brought us together as
a family more, but it also created distance in my
relationship with him because Frankie became my priority. I mean,
I didn't you know, I was in a hospital for
almost a year. I came back home and we had
(39:48):
our room upstairs and Frankie had his room downstairs, and
I wanted to see with Frankie. I've never left Frankie's side,
so it's like I didn't realize what I was doing
right like as a woman, because I needed to save
my son. And he was so good that he was
okay with it. You know, he's like, no, you know,
it's okay. I understand, but you know, it's hard. You know,
it's hard being in a situation like that. And unfortunately,
(40:08):
families that have gone through something like that, if they're listening,
they can relate to this. And because you know, you
do become closer in so many ways because we did.
And by the way, with the father too, it's like,
you know, we have the father, the stepfather, and we
became so close. But you know, as a couple, we
became distant because my head was not there. You know,
(40:31):
I just couldn't function and I was afraid that I
slept upstairs and you know, Frank he and the moon downstairs,
anything would happen, I wouldn't hear, so it just you know,
it affected our relationship as a couple eventually.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
I really appreciate you talking about this. It is true
you kind of alluded to this that when a family
system goes through a trauma like that, it can often
result in a divorce because the family system is as
you knew that, it sort of obliteratedcommodate the trauma. I mean,
and as a mother of a young son that you
(41:05):
had another choice. Of of course, you were going to
be by by his side. And you know, I often
called it like the land of bad choices. You're either
not with your son every moment, or you're not tending
to your primary romantic relationship as you want to or should,
and you have to prioritize your son, who's ailing at
(41:25):
that time. But it's I'm glad we're having this dialogue because,
like you were mentioning, of course you're in trauma, you're
in crisis. You're not reflecting on the impact.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
My whole family was affected. I wasn't even focusing on
my son Peter that also was crying out for help.
It's like your whole family falls apart.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
That's right. And look, when trauma happens, it's going to
have an impact and there's nothing we can do to
pre prepare for it. But I like that we're talking
about it because when someone is going through a chronic trauma,
like I imagine you were, because the recovery I'm sure was extensive,
you know, being able to include in your paradigm eventually
(42:03):
when your system returns somewhat from fight or flight around like,
what's happening to our overall family system? And how can
I attend to it?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And it wasn't even his biological son, even though he
for him it was like his son, like Frankie was
his son, but you know, so he was so good
that it wasn't even like his biological son. And he
was there just like the goad and you know, and
that's not what we got divorced, you know. But like
I said, when it was time to focus on my marriage,
it was kind of like too late, yeah, because you know,
(42:31):
I had saved Frankie. You know, I had saved my
other son, Peter. I was trying to save my I
had to save him. I was like, okay, like what
about me? You know what I mean, it was like
it was it was too too much. Yeah, And I've
never gone to therapy that like fixed myself, like oh my,
you know, like the kind of therapy. Actually just went
to therapy once after my father passed away. That was
(42:54):
really the first time in my life and it was
really difficult. I was twenty three years old and I yeah,
that to me was very very bad. It was my
first trauma and that was really the only time that
my mom's like I can't even help you, like I
need to send you to psychiatrists and and whatnot. But
back in the day didn't want that many therapists. There
was more psychiatrists. You know, they would medicate you, which
(43:15):
you know, my mom didn't want, so we never really
did that. But it was it was tough.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
I'm I'm struck and impressed by your ability to self
reflect and your level of insight. Not that therapy is
the only way to get there, it's not, but you've
really done some extensive, intentional, deliberate work. It's obvious from
the way that you're talking about it.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Well, thank you all. I like, if I would have
met you, then maybe I would have gone to you,
because I like it if you got back to me,
I feel like I've gone I have tried it, but
I felt like I go talk to Hillary and then
I'm like pouring like my heart out and just talking
and saying then it's you kind of like going back
to that pain right that you lived and I don't
(43:59):
want to we visit that pain again. I was there,
I suffered it, I write about it, so I feel
like I'm on the other side. And then, you know,
we they want to know like since you started your childhood,
what do you you know? And to me, I don't
see like progress, And then I haven't had somebody like
you that you know that communicates. Also like you're giving
me you know, it's a conversation. You know. I feel
(44:19):
like they're just like writing you want to know everything
about me? And then I'm like, okay, well do you
have anything to say, like what's wrong with me? Like
how can you help me? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Yeah, you know, I'm actually really glad you're saying that,
because I think one thing that you need to speaking
about advocacy. You really need to be an advocate for yourself.
If you're interested in therapy and you're pursuing a therapeutic connection,
that interviewing therapists is okay and recommend it. You know,
you really want to find someone that resonates with your
(44:50):
particular style and that feels right, as you just alluded
to you. Obviously, the goal is to go into things
that are hard and painful, and there's quote right way
for a therapist to operate, I mean, except obvious limits.
But finding someone that works the way that makes you
feel the most comfortable is really important. And interviewing one, two, three,
(45:13):
four therapists is not only okay but recommend until you
find someone that resonates. So I'm actually glad you brought
that up.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I'm happy to know that.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
I'm so glad that we got to talk today again. Yes,
I hope we get to do another check and sometime soon.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I feel like we need to. Now I'm more thank
you for making me feel comfortable, and it was really
nice talking to you.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
It was really nice talking to you too, Okay.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Doctor Hillary. This has been incredible for me just to
have a conversation and to get more clarity on what
is important in life, what's important in my life, what's
important in all you listeners that are listening, what's important
in your life? Are you wanting to get clear on
what you want and deserving your next relationship. We can
help with that. Call us or email us. All the
(46:03):
information is in the show notes. Follow us on socials.
Make sure to rate and review the podcasts I Do
Part two and iHeart podcasts. Or falling in love is
the main objective
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