March 7, 2025 • 34 mins
Dr. Nadine Macaluso was once married to convicted financial criminal Jordan Belfort, but her story has a much happier ending than you think. She's talking about her experience with emotional manipulation and trauma bonding from her marriage and shares how it has shaped her into the career she's having today.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello. My name is doctor Nade Macaluso, but my patients
call me doctor Nay. And you might know me because
my life was made into a movie, the movie The
Wolf of Wall Street. Jordan Belfourd aka The Wolf of
Wall Street was my ex husband and Margo Robbie played
me in that movie. But you know that movie talks
(00:34):
about my life from a long time ago when I
was married to him and in the quintessential trauma bond.
But after I left him, I went back to school
at thirty nine to become a licensed marriage and family therapist,
and then I went on to get my doctorate in
somatic psychotherapy, and today I specialize in helping women break
(00:57):
free from trauma bonds since I was in the quintessential
trauma bond, and I help them escape safely. First of all,
I help them recognize that they're in a trauma bond,
right because they usually come kind of confused. And then
I teach them how to escape. But most importantly, I
teach them how to heal, how to regain their sense
(01:18):
of self again so that they can go on to
live a healthy relate, you know, a healthy life, and
find their potential in life, in love, in work, in
whatever they're wanting to reach as their goal, and my
work is very, very fulfilling. And you know, I wasn't
so happy when the movie was made about me, of course,
(01:40):
because it was very traumatic, but I got to turn
my pain into my purpose. So what sparked me to
become a psychotherapist, Well, when I was married to my
ex husband, the Wolf of Wall Street. As soon as
I met him, my life with him was so crazy
and so out of control, and he was so crazy
and out of control. So I put myself right into
(02:02):
therapy and I did leave him at thirty one. But
when I was older and I was meditating and living
in LA it really came to me that I should
go to school to be a therapist because I believe
that therapy had saved my life and I really wanted
to be of service to people and help people in
(02:23):
the same way that I was helped. So my own
experiences of relational trauma being in my trauma bond have
certainly shaped how I work with my patients because I
know what it's like, and I know what it's like
to feel afraid, to feel confused, to lose yourself, to
(02:44):
feel hopeless in a trauma bond, and so I have
just so much empathy for me for them, I mean,
and I do for them what I wish was done
for me. I am able to really connect with them
in a way that probably I wouldn't have been able
to had I not endured my own trauma bond. And
(03:08):
I think that they take what I say very seriously
because not only do I have professional expertise, but I
have street cred. So what is a trauma bond? What
does it look like? So a trauma bond is any toxic,
dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. Now, it could
(03:28):
be between a bosson employee. It can be between friends,
it can be between a parent and an adult child.
But the way I write about it in my book
Run Like Hell is I write about it between lovers.
And there has to be one component thl for it
to really be a trauma bon and that is that
(03:48):
one of the partners, usually the pathological perpetrator, the abuser,
wants to have power and control over their other partner.
And so that's when you know it's a true trauma
bon because one of the partners has all the power
in the relationship. Why is it so hard to leave
a trauma bond, even when the red flags are obvious. Well,
(04:12):
there's a few reasons. When you're in a trauma bond.
There is a pattern of behavior called intermitent reinforcement. What
does that mean, big fancy psychological word. What it means
is that in the beginning of the trauma bon when
you first meet you're a lover. They're like Romeo. They're
generous and kind and helpful and loving. But then after
(04:34):
time happens the mask falls, and I say, they become
Dirty John. And that's when they cheat on you and
lie to you and betray you and become controlling and abusive.
And so those two masks are very confusing. You don't
know are you with Romeo or Dirty John? And because
(04:54):
the masks are always changing, you never land on an answer,
so you stay trapped. And also a lot of times
why people don't leave is because they're afraid when a
partner that has been abusing you and controlling you, they've
conditioned you to fear them. So I would say those
are one of the main two reasons why people don't
(05:16):
leave a trauma bond. When you're in a trauma bond,
you are in a total state of confusion, and there's
a term for it, and it's called cognitive dissonance. And
cognitive dissonance is the mental confusion that you feel inside
when you have two conflicting beliefs. And so, because in
a trauma bond, the pathological partner wears two masks of
(05:39):
dirty John and Romeo, you're very confused and you're constantly
trying to reconcile Is he good or bad? Am I crazy?
Or is he crazy? Is the relationship good or bad?
So you have three different levels of cognitive dissonance about you,
him and the relationship because of the two masks that
keep you totally can confused. So if confusion shows up
(06:03):
in your relationship repeatedly and as a pattern over time,
it could indicate that you're in a trauma bond. So
it doesn't mean listen, we're all confused at certain moments
in our lives, and love can certainly be very confusing.
But again, if you see a pattern of confusion and
you can't land on an answer if this relationship is
(06:27):
good or bad, you probably are in a trauma bond.
So if you feel addicted to the relationship highs and lows,
and let's say you've left your trauma bond, but you're
still longing for your ex. You must stay no contact.
It's like a drug addiction. You can't go back for
(06:49):
another hit. You must keep away from the source of
your trauma, which was the pathological partner, because they're the
ones that are making your nervous system go up and down.
So you must go no contact and you must stay
away from them. So let's say you're listening to this
and you're thinking, hmm, I think I could be in
(07:11):
a trauma bond. First of all, you have to take
First of all, go to my website and take a
Trauma Bond Assessment, which has a whole list of things
that will tell you if you're in a trauma bond.
But if you really do feel like you're in a
trauma bond, what I want you to do first of
all is have radical acceptance around it. Don't try to
(07:36):
deny it, don't try to rationalize, because we can't change
what we can't accept, So you have to have radical
acceptance around it. The second thing, you have to ensure
your safety. You have to make sure that you don't
tell your partner that you're going to leave, because think
about it, one of the partners wants power and control
(07:58):
over you. You can't just be like, hey, check it out,
So you have to have radical acceptance. Keep it to
you now, you wear the mask and then plan behind
the scenes, make sure you're safe, and then you escape
your trauma bond. In the day of social media, right
the digital age, it makestating so much more difficult, and
(08:20):
we do have easier access to people. And that's just
like everything, God be a good and a bad thing.
So if you've broken up, broken up your partner and
your trauma bond, I totally suggest blocking them, erasing them
from your memories because a lot of times you now
the phone just sends you the memories and then you're
gonna get triggered. And if you've been in a really
(08:42):
toxic relationship and you know they've taken pictures of you
or have any videos of you that could be compromising,
go in there and before you leave and wipe it
all out. Shame after you leave a trauma bond really
can overwhelm you. And the thing about shame, it's a feeling,
(09:02):
but it's actually a process. And why it's so hard
is because it takes over your whole sense of self.
You feel like I'm broken, I'm worthless, I can't be fixed.
So you really feel like there's something inherently wrong with you,
and that's incredibly painful. And what I've noticed that really
(09:23):
works to heal shame is self compassion, not being so
hard on yourself, not telling yourself you're broken, you can't
be fixed. No, you've just been in a very toxic
relationship and it's more about the pathological partner than it
is about you. But what you have to do is
you have to say to yourself, I was in a
toxic relationship. Many people are in toxic relationships, and you
(09:47):
need to speak to yourself as you would a best friend,
don't beat yourself up. So, after you've lived with a
partner that was gaslighting you and manipulating you and lying,
you know, straight to your face, it can feel really
hard to trust other people. But what I've discovered is
that when we start to date again, it's more about
(10:09):
learning to trust ourselves. And so after you've left this
traumatic relationship, you need to do a lot of work
on yourself before you enter into another relationship. Okay, you
can't just hop right into another one, because it's really
more about you building up your self confidence, your self esteem,
(10:32):
and learning to like yourself again and believe that you're
worthy of love. So there's a lot of work that
goes into you after you leave the relationship that will
allow you to trust yourself again to make a better decision.
(10:57):
So when I work with people on how do you
trust yourself? What does that exactly mean? So you think
about it. We have six to twelve thousand thoughts a day, right,
This brain never stops working, and we ruminate, ruminate, ruminate,
and our thoughts are where a lot of our defenses live.
There where a lot of ways that we protect ourselves
(11:20):
with our thoughts. But what I tell people is that
go back to the body. The body doesn't lie, The
body keeps the score. And trust your gut intuition. When
you've been in a trauma bond, your gut intuition and
your sense of self has been totally overridden. And so
there's so much research that we have something called the
(11:41):
vagus nerve that wraps around from our cranial through the
front of our body and into all of our organs.
And that's what it means when you have a gut intuition,
trust that gut intuition, and you'd be shocked at what
happens if you're afraid to trust again after leaving a
toxic relationship. I would say to them, that's totally normal.
(12:03):
That is totally normal to be afraid of trusting someone
again after this person who is supposed to love and
protect you really really really hurt you. But here's the thing,
is that now you've gone through this toxic relationship, you
know all the red flags, you know what to watch
for because you've gotten educated. If you're listening to this,
(12:23):
that means you want to get educated about trauma bonds.
And I believe, and that's why I wrote my book,
is that education leads to empowerment. And so yeah, it's scary,
but if you don't go and date again, then they win,
and you don't want that. Can people really change? This
is the golden question. I get asked this all the time.
(12:48):
So here's the thing. A pathological partner, the way I
describe it, people call them narcissists. I call them pathological
partners will use harm, exploit, and betray you and anybody
to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status.
Why are they going to change? Why would they change
if they're getting all their needs met. Now if you
(13:09):
leave them, Oh, but they're going to change. They're going
to go to rehab, they're going to go talk to
the pastor they're going to go to anger management. Here's
the thing. Ninety percent of these people do not change,
and the ten percent that do change, they have to
want to change. That is the true answer. Some people
(13:31):
say they never change. But I'm in the business of change,
and I have seen some pathological people change. But I
would not wait around for them to change. I would
heal yourself and go on to find a healthier love.
And now we are going to analyze a few of
the infamous Bravo couples that have been in the headlines.
(13:55):
Van der Prompt Rules. Ali Luber announces split from James
Kennedy after his domestic violence arrest. She says I was
not physically a hurt. On Wednesday, January twenty second, the
Vanda Pump Rules star confirmed that she and the DJ
had broken up. Doctor Kennedy's lawyer, Scott Lehmann, confirmed that
the Burbank City Attorney's Office would not be filing charges
(14:18):
against him in relation to his December twenty twenty four
arrest on suspicion of domestic violence. Thank you for all
your supporting kindness. Ali wrote in a post's share to
her Instagram stories. I'm so happy that prosecutors decided not
to file against James, as I never desired criminal charges.
(14:38):
We had an argument outside of his home related to
him drinking again. However, I was not physically hurt. The
astrologer admitted she was shocked by the headlineres and disheartened
by how the event was portrayed. So when people are
in toxic relationships and trauma bonds, it is so common
for them to protect their partner at all costs, right,
(15:02):
because remember, at one time this partner was loving and
kind and generous and helpful, and they usually really do
love them. And so what happens is that they have
a big fight, and you know, the pathological partner does
get very abusive, and a lot of times, especially in
James's situation here, she can say, well, you know, he
(15:25):
was drunk, he really didn't mean it. But unfortunately, it
is very common for them to protect their partners even
when the partners put them in danger. So what are
some of the subtle red flags that people ignore when
they're in a toxic relationship, especially early on. If you
(15:46):
just meet a guy and he's like, all my exs
are crazy. I don't know what's the matter with them.
That's a red flag. What all of his ex is crazy?
Maybe because it made him crazy. Or also, try to
set a boundary with somebody when you first meet them,
or maybe don't do exactly what they want you to
(16:06):
do and see how they respond. Do they respond normally
and give you the space and respect your boundaries. If
they do, great, if they don't run like hell. Okay,
so let's say you've left this toxic relationship. You realize,
oh my god, I'm with this narcissistic, pathological jerk. I
got to get out of the here, right? How do
(16:27):
you restart? How do you rebuild your life? Well, the
first thing you have to do is you were in
a traumatic relationship. A trauma bond is a traumatic relationship.
So what you have to do is you have to
stabilize with self care as soon as you get out
of that relationship, eat right, workouts, meditate, journal. You have
(16:51):
to stabilize with self care so you can go on
your journey of healing. Okay, now you've broken up right
with this traumatic breakup, and now you're like, you can't
tolerate the feelings. You just can't. It's so painful. You
long for them, You lonely. Nothing good can come of
(17:14):
jumping right back into the dating scene. Your heart is
not ready. Remember, a trauma bond is not like a
regular breakup. It's different. You're gonna have real trauma symptoms.
You're gonna feel a loss of self. You're gonna feel
cognitive dissonance. You have a lot to heal before you
(17:34):
jump into your next relationship. Summer Houses page Disorbo claims
ex Craig Conniver texted two other women during their relationship.
I'm like, Craig, what are you talking about? I feel
like you're so betraying me right now, Paige said, about
the rumors you're going to let people say that I'm
a cheater. I caught you texting too, But in our
(17:56):
relationship and the three years that I dated my boyfriend,
and Paige said on February third episode of her and
Hannah Berner's Giggly Squad podcast, I never physically cheated on him,
emotionally cheated on him. Can you mentally cheat on someone?
I don't know but I didn't. Two days later, Craig
defended himself and told his side of the breakup. Page
(18:19):
lied on her podcast and said that the breakup was mutual.
Craig said during his February sixth appearance on Watch What
Happens Live? She said it was mutual, it wasn't. I
don't want to be involved. Craig responded, I got broken
up with. I'm the ex boyfriend, moving on with my
life and I'm not going to get sucked into that
mud with them. Her cast like commenting on how I'm grieving,
(18:40):
that I'm sorry that I'm not reading Reddit every day
getting on there and defending her. Mike, I never said
you're cheated, so I'm not part of this. So how
does one determine if their partner's emotionally cheating or not?
And I'm going to tell you this. If you know
signs like they're not as engaged, they're on their phone
(19:03):
a lot more, they drift off as you talk to them,
they're not as attentive to you. And if you feel
it in your gut that their emotional attention is somewhere else,
pay attention to it and confront them. Don't deny it.
Don't avoid, don't rationalize, trust your gut, it's usually right.
(19:26):
Is emotional cheating just as damaging as physical cheating? I
think any time that you lie to your partner or
keep secrets from your partner about another person, you're cheating,
whether it's physical, emotional, or mental. And you know, sometimes
somebody could physically cheat, it could be a one off
(19:48):
and they never see them again. But with emotional cheating,
there's a connection and that person is thinking about the
other person, usually right when they wake up and right
when they go to bed. So I I do believe
that emotional cheating is just as damaging as physical and
can be just as painful. Listen, Page and Craig were
(20:08):
a long distance couple, and how does distance impact trust?
While you know there is that saying right absen makes
the heartbrow fonder, but that's not necessarily true, especially in
this digital age, right, I don't know. There's a lot
of there's a lot of temptation, and I think it
(20:31):
can impact the relationship. I think long distance like for
a long like a long period of time. I think
they have a long distance for years and years, right,
So that's going to impact the relationship. It's going to
impact the level of intimacy, and I think it's certainly
going to make the other partner suspicious of the other
(20:52):
one if they do have a little inkling that they're cheating.
Jack Taylor says he blind sided Britney Carr by initiating divorce.
Although it was strange wife Britney Cartwright was the one
who filed for divorce in August after five years of marriage,
The Vans of Punk Rules alum is now saying that
he was the one who initiated the split. The second
(21:14):
weekend of rehab, I emailed Brittany and said I'm getting
a mediator. People don't realize that I'm the one who
initiated this, says Jacks. According to Jacks, his message was
prompted Brittany to get an attorney. She was like, oh no,
I'm getting a divorce lawyer, and I was like, okay, whatever,
He continued. I think she wanted to be the first
(21:35):
one to serve me papers publicly, and though Jacks agrees
that breakup needed to happen, he believes that he that
she had other motives for filing first. I mean, how
has been blindsided affects you and your sense of closure?
Do we think anybody jack said Brittany was really blindsided
(21:55):
by any of this. I mean they've had so many issues,
I mean throughout the years, cheating, lying, addiction. I doubt
anybody was really blindsided by this breakup, including them. But
if you do get blindsided by a breakup, of course,
it can be very very painful, and that can happen
(22:15):
in a trauma bon where you just get discarded and
you have no idea why. But in this instance, I
really doubt that either one of them was blindsided because
they had such a toxic relationship. And Jackson Brittany do
have a young son, right, and so do I think
that people should stay together for their kids. I don't
(22:38):
think so, because I think what happens is that it's
not good for a child to grow up in a toxic,
dysfunctional household where there's lying and cheating and lies and
tons of aggression and yelling at each other. A child
doesn't feel safe in that environment, and I think a
(22:58):
child feels much safer or when they're in each parent's
home and it's calm and peaceful. Now, do listen, are
trial separations things that should be utilized more before filing
for divorce. This answer can go either way. Really. I
(23:19):
mean theoretically you would think, okay, yeah, A lot of
people get a trial separation and see if they really
want to get divorced. But I think that by the
time you finally say we're going to get divorced, that relationship,
and especially this relationship, has gone through so much turbulence,
so much turmoil, and so much pain. And I think
(23:42):
that by the time you get to I'm ready to
get divorced, you are ready. And let's think about this.
If your friends and family have opinions about your partner
based on what they observe, how much should you take
in with those outside voices when it comes to your relationship?
(24:02):
Is our point when external opinion should be taken seriously.
And I think that's really important because I think that
when we're in love we can have something called we
say love is blind. There's also something called betrayal blindness,
meaning we can't really see when someone that we love
betrays us, either emotionally, financially, or abuses us. We can
(24:27):
be really blind to all the abuse that's happening in
front of us. We can rationalize that, we can dismiss it,
we can make excuses because we just want it to work,
and so I think it's really important to listen to
what people say, especially if more than one person is
saying it, and you see a pattern of people saying
(24:49):
to you, you know, this relationship doesn't seem so healthy,
or you're not really like yourself anymore. I think it's
very important to listen to that, even though we might
not want to listen to it, because usually our friends
and family are just looking out for our mental health
and our happiness. Summer Houses, Kyle Cook's rage text to
(25:18):
Paige Disorbo is leaked see what allegedly said about Craig
and Hannah, as he admits Amanda nearly divorced him. Kyle's
rage text to page reads honestly beyond discouraged with Craig too.
This wouldn't be a topic today if it wasn't for
him and a dozen lies. I can't believe this is
where Hannah is at three years later, effing age shit
(25:43):
first or telling Alex Cooper I cheated on Amanda right
up until our wedding, and all the painly effing suffered
because of our podcast when it was at its peak,
which I never effing confronted you or her about now this,
You've been with her this entire time, and now you
are saying you wish you sit up for her for
season five? Now this is this what you think as well?
(26:03):
He asked, Hannah had the lowest IQ rating in the
entire network aka liability. Just asking drunk and he'll tell
you I was just heated in the moment. Can't ben
to Amanda because she basically divorced me, but potentially hurting
your guy's friendship with the sprit stuff, he wrote, per screenshot.
And I don't understand how the lies keep getting dot dat.
(26:25):
So let's say you're married and your husband unleashes on
a woman who is your friend via text. How should
you address your partner about healthy communication boundaries? Well, I
think it depends. If the text is about you, they
(26:46):
shouldn't be texting your friends about They should be talking
to you about it. Now, if it's about the relationship
that they have with that person, then they need to
respect the fact that you have a friendship with that
person and they need to speak to them respectfully. But
I don't think that's very common based upon this blurb, Right,
(27:09):
there's a lot of curse words in there, there's a
lot of aggression. So yeah, I think it's important that
your partner speaks to any of your friends with respect.
And is it appropriate for a married man to text
his wife's friend when he's enraged? How should someone handle
(27:30):
a difficult conversation when they easily can let their motions
take control. Well, here's the thing. Nobody should be speaking
or texting people when they're in a full rage because
we say things we don't mean. We just act out
(27:50):
of control. Right, Nothing gets solved when we're enraged or
angry or full of rage. Nothing gets solved in escalation,
no matter what the situation. The best thing to do,
feel your feelings, put the phone down, do not text
when you're enraged, come back to it after you've calmed down,
(28:14):
because again, nothing good happens in escalation. So I wrote
a book called Run Like Hell, a Therapist Guide to Recognizing, escaping,
and Healing from Trauma bonds. And I think that every
young woman or woman from eighteen to sixty five should
(28:37):
read my book. When you're a young woman, you need
to read it because you need to know the red flags.
You need to know what to look out for. You
need to know what a trauma bond is because I
want you to avoid it because it's so painful. And
then if you're in one, my book totally validates you.
(28:57):
I get direct messages from women all over the world.
Let's say, doctor Nay, your book saved my life. I
left your book validated me. Your book empowered me to leave.
And even if you've left your trauma bond, the whole
third section is on healing. So the first section of
the book is on what a trauma bond is, who
(29:19):
are the players in it? The middle is about the
emotional scars you get, how to leave safely, and the
last section is on how to heal from the trauma bond.
And so that's really important because maybe you've left it
and you're still suffering and you're still longing for your partner.
I've really just you know, it's been out for a
year now and so the response has been really amazing,
(29:42):
and I just love that it's validating, educating and empowering
women and men too. Men go get into trauma bonds,
but a lot of times it's women. And you know,
why did my book My book is not, you know,
a personal memoir, but writing my book was so powerful
(30:06):
because it's the book I wish I had twenty five
years ago. When I was in my quintessential trauma bond,
nobody was talking about narcissism, nobody was talking about trauma bonds,
nobody was talking about gaslighting. I was in the dark,
in a fog. And so it's really the book that
I wish that I had well those years ago. And
(30:29):
you know, I kind of got lucky because my ex
wrote a book and made a movie and I get
to exploit that movie and go rogue right and help
women everywhere heal from tox glove. So one of the
most misconceptions that people have trauma bonds, well, sometimes I
(30:51):
see in social media people say like, we bonded over
our trauma, So it's a trauma bond. No. And another
misconception is that people think that but women that stay
in there are helpless and have bad pickers and they're codependent,
And no, a trauma bond's a complex psychological process that
(31:11):
it is very hard to get out of, so it's
not so easy to leave. And one of the things
that really bugs me is that everybody says why does
she stay? Why doesn't anybody ask why does he do that?
And so I wrote my book to turn it the head,
(31:32):
you know, I wrote my book to turn the stigma
towards the victim on its head, because a trauma bond,
when you're in it, you are never responsible for someone's
abuse and control and manipulation and lies. They are responsible
for that. Now you are responsible to get yourself out
(31:54):
of it and heal, But you're never responsible for somebody
else's abuse and control over you because especially they start
off as comment so you don't know what you're in for.
So where do I see myself personally and professionally in
five years? Oh my god, that's such a good question.
You know. Personally, I'm really happy. I mean, I have
(32:15):
the best job in the world. I get to help
women all day long heel and I'm in a happily
married marriage for over twenty years now. My kids are
grown up, so I'm so happy. Personally, I love what
I do, and professionally, what I want to do is
I just want to keep expanding my reach. I want
(32:36):
to keep helping more and more women, and I'm doing
that with my book. But also I just started a
trauma bon recovery course and a trauma bond recovery community
that you can join online for a very inexpensive price,
because I want to reach more people, and I also
want to create a community of women that can be
(32:58):
in there commiserating and you know, and it's off of
social media, so it's safe. So professionally, I just hope
that my reach grows and grows and that I can
help more women recognize, escape and heal from trauma bonds.
So thank you so much for having me. And this
has been really fun to share what I do share
(33:21):
about my book. And I am a Bravo freak, so
I love all the Bravo stuff because it's my guilty
pleasure reality TV, and so I would love it if
you follow me on Instagram at the real doctor na
Dean and you can also find me on TikTok, which
(33:41):
is the Wild West of social media Doctor nay Nae LMFT.
Also go to my website, doctor Naynae dot com. I
have tons of assessments, pathological love assessment, trauma bond assessments,
and follow all things Rogue Energy at Rogue Energy Podcast.
And so I see you next time. Stay away from
(34:03):
trouble blocks, Okay,
Hello. My name is doctor Nade Macaluso, but my patients
call me doctor Nay. And you might know me because
my life was made into a movie, the movie The
Wolf of Wall Street. Jordan Belfourd aka The Wolf of
Wall Street was my ex husband and Margo Robbie played
me in that movie. But you know that movie talks
(00:34):
about my life from a long time ago when I
was married to him and in the quintessential trauma bond.
But after I left him, I went back to school
at thirty nine to become a licensed marriage and family therapist,
and then I went on to get my doctorate in
somatic psychotherapy, and today I specialize in helping women break
(00:57):
free from trauma bonds since I was in the quintessential
trauma bond, and I help them escape safely. First of all,
I help them recognize that they're in a trauma bond,
right because they usually come kind of confused. And then
I teach them how to escape. But most importantly, I
teach them how to heal, how to regain their sense
(01:18):
of self again so that they can go on to
live a healthy relate, you know, a healthy life, and
find their potential in life, in love, in work, in
whatever they're wanting to reach as their goal, and my
work is very, very fulfilling. And you know, I wasn't
so happy when the movie was made about me, of course,
(01:40):
because it was very traumatic, but I got to turn
my pain into my purpose. So what sparked me to
become a psychotherapist, Well, when I was married to my
ex husband, the Wolf of Wall Street. As soon as
I met him, my life with him was so crazy
and so out of control, and he was so crazy
and out of control. So I put myself right into
(02:02):
therapy and I did leave him at thirty one. But
when I was older and I was meditating and living
in LA it really came to me that I should
go to school to be a therapist because I believe
that therapy had saved my life and I really wanted
to be of service to people and help people in
(02:23):
the same way that I was helped. So my own
experiences of relational trauma being in my trauma bond have
certainly shaped how I work with my patients because I
know what it's like, and I know what it's like
to feel afraid, to feel confused, to lose yourself, to
(02:44):
feel hopeless in a trauma bond, and so I have
just so much empathy for me for them, I mean,
and I do for them what I wish was done
for me. I am able to really connect with them
in a way that probably I wouldn't have been able
to had I not endured my own trauma bond. And
(03:08):
I think that they take what I say very seriously
because not only do I have professional expertise, but I
have street cred. So what is a trauma bond? What
does it look like? So a trauma bond is any toxic,
dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. Now, it could
(03:28):
be between a bosson employee. It can be between friends,
it can be between a parent and an adult child.
But the way I write about it in my book
Run Like Hell is I write about it between lovers.
And there has to be one component thl for it
to really be a trauma bon and that is that
(03:48):
one of the partners, usually the pathological perpetrator, the abuser,
wants to have power and control over their other partner.
And so that's when you know it's a true trauma
bon because one of the partners has all the power
in the relationship. Why is it so hard to leave
a trauma bond, even when the red flags are obvious. Well,
(04:12):
there's a few reasons. When you're in a trauma bond.
There is a pattern of behavior called intermitent reinforcement. What
does that mean, big fancy psychological word. What it means
is that in the beginning of the trauma bon when
you first meet you're a lover. They're like Romeo. They're
generous and kind and helpful and loving. But then after
(04:34):
time happens the mask falls, and I say, they become
Dirty John. And that's when they cheat on you and
lie to you and betray you and become controlling and abusive.
And so those two masks are very confusing. You don't
know are you with Romeo or Dirty John? And because
(04:54):
the masks are always changing, you never land on an answer,
so you stay trapped. And also a lot of times
why people don't leave is because they're afraid when a
partner that has been abusing you and controlling you, they've
conditioned you to fear them. So I would say those
are one of the main two reasons why people don't
(05:16):
leave a trauma bond. When you're in a trauma bond,
you are in a total state of confusion, and there's
a term for it, and it's called cognitive dissonance. And
cognitive dissonance is the mental confusion that you feel inside
when you have two conflicting beliefs. And so, because in
a trauma bond, the pathological partner wears two masks of
(05:39):
dirty John and Romeo, you're very confused and you're constantly
trying to reconcile Is he good or bad? Am I crazy?
Or is he crazy? Is the relationship good or bad?
So you have three different levels of cognitive dissonance about you,
him and the relationship because of the two masks that
keep you totally can confused. So if confusion shows up
(06:03):
in your relationship repeatedly and as a pattern over time,
it could indicate that you're in a trauma bond. So
it doesn't mean listen, we're all confused at certain moments
in our lives, and love can certainly be very confusing.
But again, if you see a pattern of confusion and
you can't land on an answer if this relationship is
(06:27):
good or bad, you probably are in a trauma bond.
So if you feel addicted to the relationship highs and lows,
and let's say you've left your trauma bond, but you're
still longing for your ex. You must stay no contact.
It's like a drug addiction. You can't go back for
(06:49):
another hit. You must keep away from the source of
your trauma, which was the pathological partner, because they're the
ones that are making your nervous system go up and down.
So you must go no contact and you must stay
away from them. So let's say you're listening to this
and you're thinking, hmm, I think I could be in
(07:11):
a trauma bond. First of all, you have to take
First of all, go to my website and take a
Trauma Bond Assessment, which has a whole list of things
that will tell you if you're in a trauma bond.
But if you really do feel like you're in a
trauma bond, what I want you to do first of
all is have radical acceptance around it. Don't try to
(07:36):
deny it, don't try to rationalize, because we can't change
what we can't accept, So you have to have radical
acceptance around it. The second thing, you have to ensure
your safety. You have to make sure that you don't
tell your partner that you're going to leave, because think
about it, one of the partners wants power and control
(07:58):
over you. You can't just be like, hey, check it out,
So you have to have radical acceptance. Keep it to
you now, you wear the mask and then plan behind
the scenes, make sure you're safe, and then you escape
your trauma bond. In the day of social media, right
the digital age, it makestating so much more difficult, and
(08:20):
we do have easier access to people. And that's just
like everything, God be a good and a bad thing.
So if you've broken up, broken up your partner and
your trauma bond, I totally suggest blocking them, erasing them
from your memories because a lot of times you now
the phone just sends you the memories and then you're
gonna get triggered. And if you've been in a really
(08:42):
toxic relationship and you know they've taken pictures of you
or have any videos of you that could be compromising,
go in there and before you leave and wipe it
all out. Shame after you leave a trauma bond really
can overwhelm you. And the thing about shame, it's a feeling,
(09:02):
but it's actually a process. And why it's so hard
is because it takes over your whole sense of self.
You feel like I'm broken, I'm worthless, I can't be fixed.
So you really feel like there's something inherently wrong with you,
and that's incredibly painful. And what I've noticed that really
(09:23):
works to heal shame is self compassion, not being so
hard on yourself, not telling yourself you're broken, you can't
be fixed. No, you've just been in a very toxic
relationship and it's more about the pathological partner than it
is about you. But what you have to do is
you have to say to yourself, I was in a
toxic relationship. Many people are in toxic relationships, and you
(09:47):
need to speak to yourself as you would a best friend,
don't beat yourself up. So, after you've lived with a
partner that was gaslighting you and manipulating you and lying,
you know, straight to your face, it can feel really
hard to trust other people. But what I've discovered is
that when we start to date again, it's more about
(10:09):
learning to trust ourselves. And so after you've left this
traumatic relationship, you need to do a lot of work
on yourself before you enter into another relationship. Okay, you
can't just hop right into another one, because it's really
more about you building up your self confidence, your self esteem,
(10:32):
and learning to like yourself again and believe that you're
worthy of love. So there's a lot of work that
goes into you after you leave the relationship that will
allow you to trust yourself again to make a better decision.
(10:57):
So when I work with people on how do you
trust yourself? What does that exactly mean? So you think
about it. We have six to twelve thousand thoughts a day, right,
This brain never stops working, and we ruminate, ruminate, ruminate,
and our thoughts are where a lot of our defenses live.
There where a lot of ways that we protect ourselves
(11:20):
with our thoughts. But what I tell people is that
go back to the body. The body doesn't lie, The
body keeps the score. And trust your gut intuition. When
you've been in a trauma bond, your gut intuition and
your sense of self has been totally overridden. And so
there's so much research that we have something called the
(11:41):
vagus nerve that wraps around from our cranial through the
front of our body and into all of our organs.
And that's what it means when you have a gut intuition,
trust that gut intuition, and you'd be shocked at what
happens if you're afraid to trust again after leaving a
toxic relationship. I would say to them, that's totally normal.
(12:03):
That is totally normal to be afraid of trusting someone
again after this person who is supposed to love and
protect you really really really hurt you. But here's the thing,
is that now you've gone through this toxic relationship, you
know all the red flags, you know what to watch
for because you've gotten educated. If you're listening to this,
(12:23):
that means you want to get educated about trauma bonds.
And I believe, and that's why I wrote my book,
is that education leads to empowerment. And so yeah, it's scary,
but if you don't go and date again, then they win,
and you don't want that. Can people really change? This
is the golden question. I get asked this all the time.
(12:48):
So here's the thing. A pathological partner, the way I
describe it, people call them narcissists. I call them pathological
partners will use harm, exploit, and betray you and anybody
to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status.
Why are they going to change? Why would they change
if they're getting all their needs met. Now if you
(13:09):
leave them, Oh, but they're going to change. They're going
to go to rehab, they're going to go talk to
the pastor they're going to go to anger management. Here's
the thing. Ninety percent of these people do not change,
and the ten percent that do change, they have to
want to change. That is the true answer. Some people
(13:31):
say they never change. But I'm in the business of change,
and I have seen some pathological people change. But I
would not wait around for them to change. I would
heal yourself and go on to find a healthier love.
And now we are going to analyze a few of
the infamous Bravo couples that have been in the headlines.
(13:55):
Van der Prompt Rules. Ali Luber announces split from James
Kennedy after his domestic violence arrest. She says I was
not physically a hurt. On Wednesday, January twenty second, the
Vanda Pump Rules star confirmed that she and the DJ
had broken up. Doctor Kennedy's lawyer, Scott Lehmann, confirmed that
the Burbank City Attorney's Office would not be filing charges
(14:18):
against him in relation to his December twenty twenty four
arrest on suspicion of domestic violence. Thank you for all
your supporting kindness. Ali wrote in a post's share to
her Instagram stories. I'm so happy that prosecutors decided not
to file against James, as I never desired criminal charges.
(14:38):
We had an argument outside of his home related to
him drinking again. However, I was not physically hurt. The
astrologer admitted she was shocked by the headlineres and disheartened
by how the event was portrayed. So when people are
in toxic relationships and trauma bonds, it is so common
for them to protect their partner at all costs, right,
(15:02):
because remember, at one time this partner was loving and
kind and generous and helpful, and they usually really do
love them. And so what happens is that they have
a big fight, and you know, the pathological partner does
get very abusive, and a lot of times, especially in
James's situation here, she can say, well, you know, he
(15:25):
was drunk, he really didn't mean it. But unfortunately, it
is very common for them to protect their partners even
when the partners put them in danger. So what are
some of the subtle red flags that people ignore when
they're in a toxic relationship, especially early on. If you
(15:46):
just meet a guy and he's like, all my exs
are crazy. I don't know what's the matter with them.
That's a red flag. What all of his ex is crazy?
Maybe because it made him crazy. Or also, try to
set a boundary with somebody when you first meet them,
or maybe don't do exactly what they want you to
(16:06):
do and see how they respond. Do they respond normally
and give you the space and respect your boundaries. If
they do, great, if they don't run like hell. Okay,
so let's say you've left this toxic relationship. You realize,
oh my god, I'm with this narcissistic, pathological jerk. I
got to get out of the here, right? How do
(16:27):
you restart? How do you rebuild your life? Well, the
first thing you have to do is you were in
a traumatic relationship. A trauma bond is a traumatic relationship.
So what you have to do is you have to
stabilize with self care as soon as you get out
of that relationship, eat right, workouts, meditate, journal. You have
(16:51):
to stabilize with self care so you can go on
your journey of healing. Okay, now you've broken up right
with this traumatic breakup, and now you're like, you can't
tolerate the feelings. You just can't. It's so painful. You
long for them, You lonely. Nothing good can come of
(17:14):
jumping right back into the dating scene. Your heart is
not ready. Remember, a trauma bond is not like a
regular breakup. It's different. You're gonna have real trauma symptoms.
You're gonna feel a loss of self. You're gonna feel
cognitive dissonance. You have a lot to heal before you
(17:34):
jump into your next relationship. Summer Houses page Disorbo claims
ex Craig Conniver texted two other women during their relationship.
I'm like, Craig, what are you talking about? I feel
like you're so betraying me right now, Paige said, about
the rumors you're going to let people say that I'm
a cheater. I caught you texting too, But in our
(17:56):
relationship and the three years that I dated my boyfriend,
and Paige said on February third episode of her and
Hannah Berner's Giggly Squad podcast, I never physically cheated on him,
emotionally cheated on him. Can you mentally cheat on someone?
I don't know but I didn't. Two days later, Craig
defended himself and told his side of the breakup. Page
(18:19):
lied on her podcast and said that the breakup was mutual.
Craig said during his February sixth appearance on Watch What
Happens Live? She said it was mutual, it wasn't. I
don't want to be involved. Craig responded, I got broken
up with. I'm the ex boyfriend, moving on with my
life and I'm not going to get sucked into that
mud with them. Her cast like commenting on how I'm grieving,
(18:40):
that I'm sorry that I'm not reading Reddit every day
getting on there and defending her. Mike, I never said
you're cheated, so I'm not part of this. So how
does one determine if their partner's emotionally cheating or not?
And I'm going to tell you this. If you know
signs like they're not as engaged, they're on their phone
(19:03):
a lot more, they drift off as you talk to them,
they're not as attentive to you. And if you feel
it in your gut that their emotional attention is somewhere else,
pay attention to it and confront them. Don't deny it.
Don't avoid, don't rationalize, trust your gut, it's usually right.
(19:26):
Is emotional cheating just as damaging as physical cheating? I
think any time that you lie to your partner or
keep secrets from your partner about another person, you're cheating,
whether it's physical, emotional, or mental. And you know, sometimes
somebody could physically cheat, it could be a one off
(19:48):
and they never see them again. But with emotional cheating,
there's a connection and that person is thinking about the
other person, usually right when they wake up and right
when they go to bed. So I I do believe
that emotional cheating is just as damaging as physical and
can be just as painful. Listen, Page and Craig were
(20:08):
a long distance couple, and how does distance impact trust?
While you know there is that saying right absen makes
the heartbrow fonder, but that's not necessarily true, especially in
this digital age, right, I don't know. There's a lot
of there's a lot of temptation, and I think it
(20:31):
can impact the relationship. I think long distance like for
a long like a long period of time. I think
they have a long distance for years and years, right,
So that's going to impact the relationship. It's going to
impact the level of intimacy, and I think it's certainly
going to make the other partner suspicious of the other
(20:52):
one if they do have a little inkling that they're cheating.
Jack Taylor says he blind sided Britney Carr by initiating divorce.
Although it was strange wife Britney Cartwright was the one
who filed for divorce in August after five years of marriage,
The Vans of Punk Rules alum is now saying that
he was the one who initiated the split. The second
(21:14):
weekend of rehab, I emailed Brittany and said I'm getting
a mediator. People don't realize that I'm the one who
initiated this, says Jacks. According to Jacks, his message was
prompted Brittany to get an attorney. She was like, oh no,
I'm getting a divorce lawyer, and I was like, okay, whatever,
He continued. I think she wanted to be the first
(21:35):
one to serve me papers publicly, and though Jacks agrees
that breakup needed to happen, he believes that he that
she had other motives for filing first. I mean, how
has been blindsided affects you and your sense of closure?
Do we think anybody jack said Brittany was really blindsided
(21:55):
by any of this. I mean they've had so many issues,
I mean throughout the years, cheating, lying, addiction. I doubt
anybody was really blindsided by this breakup, including them. But
if you do get blindsided by a breakup, of course,
it can be very very painful, and that can happen
(22:15):
in a trauma bon where you just get discarded and
you have no idea why. But in this instance, I
really doubt that either one of them was blindsided because
they had such a toxic relationship. And Jackson Brittany do
have a young son, right, and so do I think
that people should stay together for their kids. I don't
(22:38):
think so, because I think what happens is that it's
not good for a child to grow up in a toxic,
dysfunctional household where there's lying and cheating and lies and
tons of aggression and yelling at each other. A child
doesn't feel safe in that environment, and I think a
(22:58):
child feels much safer or when they're in each parent's
home and it's calm and peaceful. Now, do listen, are
trial separations things that should be utilized more before filing
for divorce. This answer can go either way. Really. I
(23:19):
mean theoretically you would think, okay, yeah, A lot of
people get a trial separation and see if they really
want to get divorced. But I think that by the
time you finally say we're going to get divorced, that relationship,
and especially this relationship, has gone through so much turbulence,
so much turmoil, and so much pain. And I think
(23:42):
that by the time you get to I'm ready to
get divorced, you are ready. And let's think about this.
If your friends and family have opinions about your partner
based on what they observe, how much should you take
in with those outside voices when it comes to your relationship?
(24:02):
Is our point when external opinion should be taken seriously.
And I think that's really important because I think that
when we're in love we can have something called we
say love is blind. There's also something called betrayal blindness,
meaning we can't really see when someone that we love
betrays us, either emotionally, financially, or abuses us. We can
(24:27):
be really blind to all the abuse that's happening in
front of us. We can rationalize that, we can dismiss it,
we can make excuses because we just want it to work,
and so I think it's really important to listen to
what people say, especially if more than one person is
saying it, and you see a pattern of people saying
(24:49):
to you, you know, this relationship doesn't seem so healthy,
or you're not really like yourself anymore. I think it's
very important to listen to that, even though we might
not want to listen to it, because usually our friends
and family are just looking out for our mental health
and our happiness. Summer Houses, Kyle Cook's rage text to
(25:18):
Paige Disorbo is leaked see what allegedly said about Craig
and Hannah, as he admits Amanda nearly divorced him. Kyle's
rage text to page reads honestly beyond discouraged with Craig too.
This wouldn't be a topic today if it wasn't for
him and a dozen lies. I can't believe this is
where Hannah is at three years later, effing age shit
(25:43):
first or telling Alex Cooper I cheated on Amanda right
up until our wedding, and all the painly effing suffered
because of our podcast when it was at its peak,
which I never effing confronted you or her about now this,
You've been with her this entire time, and now you
are saying you wish you sit up for her for
season five? Now this is this what you think as well?
(26:03):
He asked, Hannah had the lowest IQ rating in the
entire network aka liability. Just asking drunk and he'll tell
you I was just heated in the moment. Can't ben
to Amanda because she basically divorced me, but potentially hurting
your guy's friendship with the sprit stuff, he wrote, per screenshot.
And I don't understand how the lies keep getting dot dat.
(26:25):
So let's say you're married and your husband unleashes on
a woman who is your friend via text. How should
you address your partner about healthy communication boundaries? Well, I
think it depends. If the text is about you, they
(26:46):
shouldn't be texting your friends about They should be talking
to you about it. Now, if it's about the relationship
that they have with that person, then they need to
respect the fact that you have a friendship with that
person and they need to speak to them respectfully. But
I don't think that's very common based upon this blurb, Right,
(27:09):
there's a lot of curse words in there, there's a
lot of aggression. So yeah, I think it's important that
your partner speaks to any of your friends with respect.
And is it appropriate for a married man to text
his wife's friend when he's enraged? How should someone handle
(27:30):
a difficult conversation when they easily can let their motions
take control. Well, here's the thing. Nobody should be speaking
or texting people when they're in a full rage because
we say things we don't mean. We just act out
(27:50):
of control. Right, Nothing gets solved when we're enraged or
angry or full of rage. Nothing gets solved in escalation,
no matter what the situation. The best thing to do,
feel your feelings, put the phone down, do not text
when you're enraged, come back to it after you've calmed down,
(28:14):
because again, nothing good happens in escalation. So I wrote
a book called Run Like Hell, a Therapist Guide to Recognizing, escaping,
and Healing from Trauma bonds. And I think that every
young woman or woman from eighteen to sixty five should
(28:37):
read my book. When you're a young woman, you need
to read it because you need to know the red flags.
You need to know what to look out for. You
need to know what a trauma bond is because I
want you to avoid it because it's so painful. And
then if you're in one, my book totally validates you.
(28:57):
I get direct messages from women all over the world.
Let's say, doctor Nay, your book saved my life. I
left your book validated me. Your book empowered me to leave.
And even if you've left your trauma bond, the whole
third section is on healing. So the first section of
the book is on what a trauma bond is, who
(29:19):
are the players in it? The middle is about the
emotional scars you get, how to leave safely, and the
last section is on how to heal from the trauma bond.
And so that's really important because maybe you've left it
and you're still suffering and you're still longing for your partner.
I've really just you know, it's been out for a
year now and so the response has been really amazing,
(29:42):
and I just love that it's validating, educating and empowering
women and men too. Men go get into trauma bonds,
but a lot of times it's women. And you know,
why did my book My book is not, you know,
a personal memoir, but writing my book was so powerful
(30:06):
because it's the book I wish I had twenty five
years ago. When I was in my quintessential trauma bond,
nobody was talking about narcissism, nobody was talking about trauma bonds,
nobody was talking about gaslighting. I was in the dark,
in a fog. And so it's really the book that
I wish that I had well those years ago. And
(30:29):
you know, I kind of got lucky because my ex
wrote a book and made a movie and I get
to exploit that movie and go rogue right and help
women everywhere heal from tox glove. So one of the
most misconceptions that people have trauma bonds, well, sometimes I
(30:51):
see in social media people say like, we bonded over
our trauma, So it's a trauma bond. No. And another
misconception is that people think that but women that stay
in there are helpless and have bad pickers and they're codependent,
And no, a trauma bond's a complex psychological process that
(31:11):
it is very hard to get out of, so it's
not so easy to leave. And one of the things
that really bugs me is that everybody says why does
she stay? Why doesn't anybody ask why does he do that?
And so I wrote my book to turn it the head,
(31:32):
you know, I wrote my book to turn the stigma
towards the victim on its head, because a trauma bond,
when you're in it, you are never responsible for someone's
abuse and control and manipulation and lies. They are responsible
for that. Now you are responsible to get yourself out
(31:54):
of it and heal, But you're never responsible for somebody
else's abuse and control over you because especially they start
off as comment so you don't know what you're in for.
So where do I see myself personally and professionally in
five years? Oh my god, that's such a good question.
You know. Personally, I'm really happy. I mean, I have
(32:15):
the best job in the world. I get to help
women all day long heel and I'm in a happily
married marriage for over twenty years now. My kids are
grown up, so I'm so happy. Personally, I love what
I do, and professionally, what I want to do is
I just want to keep expanding my reach. I want
(32:36):
to keep helping more and more women, and I'm doing
that with my book. But also I just started a
trauma bon recovery course and a trauma bond recovery community
that you can join online for a very inexpensive price,
because I want to reach more people, and I also
want to create a community of women that can be
(32:58):
in there commiserating and you know, and it's off of
social media, so it's safe. So professionally, I just hope
that my reach grows and grows and that I can
help more women recognize, escape and heal from trauma bonds.
So thank you so much for having me. And this
has been really fun to share what I do share
(33:21):
about my book. And I am a Bravo freak, so
I love all the Bravo stuff because it's my guilty
pleasure reality TV, and so I would love it if
you follow me on Instagram at the real doctor na
Dean and you can also find me on TikTok, which
(33:41):
is the Wild West of social media Doctor nay Nae LMFT.
Also go to my website, doctor Naynae dot com. I
have tons of assessments, pathological love assessment, trauma bond assessments,
and follow all things Rogue Energy at Rogue Energy Podcast.
And so I see you next time. Stay away from
(34:03):
trouble blocks, Okay,
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