Trump lawlessness, DOGE/DOJ target non-profit, Sen. Van Hollen returns, MLK struggles in the North

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 3 (02:05):
Today Friday, April eighteenth, twenty twenty five, coming up on
roland Mark Unfiltered streaming Live with the Black Star Network.
Folks haven't made it to the first one hundred days
and the twice impeached, crimly convicted felonm in g Donald
macn Trump has unleashed lawlessness all across the country.

Speaker 7 (02:24):
Jen A.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
Nelson, the President Director Council and the Legal Defense Fund,
will explain that although Trump's tactics aren't new, they can
be stopped. Federal judges are doing their part ruly against
Trump left and right. A lot of people will fear
if the courts were not going to do their part.

Speaker 7 (02:41):
Oh, but they are.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
According to the nonprofit organization at Verra Institute, it was
targeted by Trump's DOJ and DOE, setting a troubling precedent
for targeting nonprofits that receive federal funding. The Maryland Cider
of Chris van Holland just returned for Bill Salvador, where
he finally met the Maryland man who was wrongfully deported
by Trump. Plus, I talked with Jean Theo Harris about

(03:05):
her new book King of the North, Martin Luther King
Junior's life of struggle outside of the South. The book
focuses on King's experiences uh in places like Chicago, Los Angeles,
Boston and others. That's their influence is campaign for racial justice.
It's a lot to unpack and it is time to
bring the funk on rolling Mark unfiltered on the Black

(03:28):
Star Network.

Speaker 7 (03:29):
Let's go.

Speaker 8 (03:30):
He's got whatever, he's it, whatever it is, he's got
the fact fine. Elena believes he's right on top. It
is rolling. Best believe he's knowing from Boston, houst to politics,
with entertainment, just books. He's it's stolen. He's puny specially's

(04:07):
built up question.

Speaker 9 (04:08):
No, he's rolling, Folks.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Been eighty eight days since the twice in peach criminally
convicted felon in chief Donald the Cohn Trump occupied the
White House. During these eighty eight days, he has abused
in a massive way of presidential power by dismissing individuals
from federal boards, laying off thousands of employees under the
pretext of saying the government needs the money to fund

(04:42):
of operations, openly disregarding court orders and unlawfully deporting individuals,
and also just completely saying they're.

Speaker 7 (04:50):
Not going to comply with court orders.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
It's been a fierce battle fighting against him, especially in
the federal court system. Nelson, the president director of Council
of the Legal Defense Fund, what an op ed in
a nation called we can defeat trump'slawlessness.

Speaker 7 (05:06):
We've done it before. She joins me.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
Right now, Jenay, glad to have you here. You lay
out that it can be defeated. Let's unpack that because
just we saw today even in the very very conservative
Fifth Circuit, that judges have been nailing Trump on how

(05:29):
they are abusing power, just deporting folks for the hell
of it.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
That's right.

Speaker 10 (05:35):
What is happening is so egregious that you see some
of our staunchest, most conservative, some of the most extreme
circuits and judges recognizing that our constitution, our democracy, the
rule of law itself is at stake because it is
being abused so plainly, in plain sight, with zero restraint.

(06:00):
And if there's any fidelity to the rule of law,
if there's any interest in keeping this country from devolving
into a full out autocracy, the courts have to step
in and enforce the law and recognize that no one
is above the law. Even if this president thinks that
he has full immunity, he still cannot engage in unlawful

(06:23):
conduct without a check by these courts. And certainly the
people in his administration don't enjoy the same immunity that
he does. So what they're doing at his behest and
at his direction, is putting them their lives, their livelihoods,
their licenses at risk because in many instances they are
engaging in civil rights violations, potentially human rights violations, and

(06:47):
misconduct that can lead them into potential criminal conviction. So
this is serious business, and I'm glad to see that
the courts are stepping up and stepping in.

Speaker 7 (06:58):
So here's what's interesting.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Right now, You've got Democrats saying it is wrong for
Democrats to be focused on people like the man who
was deported to El Salvador. Senator Chris van Holland travel
there to meet with this man, they're saying, oh, no, no, no,
you should ignore those things. But the courts are hitting

(07:21):
them left and right.

Speaker 7 (07:22):
Now.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
I know the LDF is a nonpartisan group, but to
me that sounds idiotic. If you believe in the rule
of law, if you believe in the Constitution, then as
barb as Congswell Barbara Jordan said in the water, get
your hearings.

Speaker 7 (07:36):
My faith in the Constitution.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Is whole and it is complete, and I will not
stand oddly by and watch people abuse this.

Speaker 7 (07:45):
To me, that's crazy advice.

Speaker 10 (07:48):
Yeah, you know, as you said, LDF is nonpartisan. We
don't give political advice. What we do is say what
the law requires, and the law requires that every single
person has a right to do process.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
Has a right to be treated equally under.

Speaker 10 (08:03):
The law, should not be subject to human and civil
rights abuses. And the problem that we are in right
now as a country is this very self centered approach
to rights and to protections. And we have to realize
that if we are serious about the principles that hold

(08:23):
this country apart from many others, or at least used
to that, it doesn't matter who is being targeted. What
matters is whether the principle that we believe in is
being abused, if it's being ignored, if it's being weaponized,
and we should not care against whom that is happening.
We should simply care that it is happening. I'd like

(08:44):
to believe that all of us believe that every human
is created equal and deserves those protections and rights. But
even if you don't believe that the fact that these
principles are being weaponized should.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
Be of concern to all of us.

Speaker 10 (08:57):
That this government has turned itself against its people is
one of the most concerning developments in the evolution of
this democracy in modern history.

Speaker 4 (09:10):
We are in uncharted orders, and.

Speaker 10 (09:13):
This idea that our democracy is unraveling or maybe under
authoritarian our fascist threat is no.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
Longer a notion.

Speaker 10 (09:23):
It is a clear and present danger that is actively unfolding.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
In front of us.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well, I'm shitting here looking at I follow Kyle Change
of Political on Twitter. So just two hours ago, he
saidjsing lawyers for Venezuelan nationals say they're being loaded onto
buses this hour in anticipation of a new wave of
alien enemies deportations with less than twenty four hours notice.
They're asking Judge Bohsburg for any immediate restraining order requiring

(09:50):
thirty days. Notice. They don't believe in do process. They
don't believe in people following the process. We saw we
had that. We ran a video the other day of
people people thought was someone with ICE who was breaking
the window of a man, and we find out that
he was actually with a militia group.

Speaker 7 (10:10):
I mean, he was not actually with ICE.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
I mean what Trump is doing, he is giving these
people permission to essentially kidnap folks.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
That's right.

Speaker 10 (10:25):
We're seeing live kidnappings. We're seeing live abductions. We're seeing
people being pulled off the street without any explanation, without
anyone giving any id and if anyone is confronted with
that circumstance, they don't know what to do. They don't
know if this is lawful conduct of people who are
licensed and deputized with the authority to confront them, or

(10:48):
if these are rogue criminal actors. And in many instances
we're seeing, as you pointed.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
Out, a confluence of both.

Speaker 10 (10:57):
At the same time, we are in danger your risk
times and this is anyone if you are perceived to
be someone who might be an immigrant, or you might
not have lawful papers or citizenship here, you could be
a target. And we're seeing with each passing day that
every citizen in this country is closer to being under threat.

(11:21):
An actual citizen was mistakenly detained by Ice and had
to be returned. We're seeing a refusal by the government
in El Salvador to return mister Garcia.

Speaker 4 (11:35):
Abrigo, mister Garcia. Part of it's.

Speaker 10 (11:40):
Unbelievable the level of incompetence and intentional harm and violence
that's being inflicted by this government. And even when they
recognize that they've done something wrong, they are not taking
adequate steps to undo that harm and to retract their
efforts in action. So we are in very, very rogue

(12:04):
territory and we should be crying out in protest, and
we should be calling on every elected official to do
what Representative van Holland has been doing, and what.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
Other representatives have been saying.

Speaker 10 (12:17):
Representative Garcia, with whom I was in conversation last night,
and so many others have actually been speaking out, and
we need to amplify those voices.

Speaker 7 (12:27):
This right here is amazing.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
Have you ever in your legal career seeing a judge
write this, and this is a three judge panel. A
Reagan appointing, and this is regarding mister Garcia, the man
from Maryland.

Speaker 7 (12:44):
The judge rights.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
It is difficult in some cases to get to the
very heart of the matter, but in this case it
is not hard at all. The government is asserting a
right to stash away residents of this country in foreign
prisons without the semblance of due process that is the
foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence
that because it has rid itself of custody, if there's

(13:07):
nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not
only to judges but to the intuitive sense of liberty
that Americans, far removed from courthouses still hold. Dear, the
government asserts that Abragio Garcia, as a terrorist and a
member of MS thirteen, perhaps but perhaps not regardless, he
is still entitled to due process. If the government is

(13:28):
confident of his position, it should be assured that position
will prevail in proceedings to terminate the withholding of removal order.

Speaker 7 (13:38):
I mean, these judges.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
Are literally themselves shocked at what they are witnessing, and
to have doj officials lawyers walk into their courtrooms and
literally say we're not going to follow your order. The
Supreme court rule nine to zero against Trump. He is
out of here going, oh no, no, no, they ruled

(14:02):
in our favor.

Speaker 10 (14:04):
Yeah, well, we know, we know that this administration traffics
in lies and falsehoods. You know that they will look
directly into a camera and tell you that.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
What is up is down, what is left is right,
and what.

Speaker 10 (14:17):
Is wrong is also right. And we are much smarter
than that. We have to be discerning, and as media professionals,
as you do all the time, media has to call
it out.

Speaker 4 (14:30):
They have to name a lie a lie. And that's
what we're seeing.

Speaker 10 (14:33):
It defies exactly what was written in these court statements
and court orders.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
And many people have talked about.

Speaker 10 (14:40):
Us approaching a constitutional crisis. We are having that crisis
right now. And this crisis will only worsen unless this
administration sees that there are actual consequences.

Speaker 4 (14:53):
They're going to be held in contempt of court, they
may face actual.

Speaker 10 (14:57):
Fines, and if they continue to defy these court orders,
they may face even more severe sanctions. And this is
necessary if they're going to ignore an entire third branch
of government. When the Constitution established this tripartite system so
that we have checks and balances, we can't have one branch,

(15:19):
the executive branch, cancel out all others.

Speaker 4 (15:22):
And that's what's happening right now.

Speaker 10 (15:24):
Everyone must rain this in, including Congress, because if this
administration continues to go too far, which it already has,
in my view, we need to be talking about impeachment.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
This is clear. This is clear.

Speaker 10 (15:37):
This president and his administration are violating all sorts of laws,
and these are grounds for impeachment.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
I know y'all have been focused on this as well.
And in order to win, you need folks who are
willing to fight. And when you have major law firms
capitulating cutting deals with Donald Trump because he's issuing frankly
illegal executive orders targeting law firms, that can happen. The
universities are buckling as well. Thankfully Harvard and Marteen others

(16:09):
are fighting back. But in order to come back lawlessness,
you've got to have people who are not afraid.

Speaker 10 (16:15):
To fight, not afraid to fight, not afraid to enforce
the law, not afraid to honor their oath to the
profession that they sought to enter for which we took
an exam and completed an oath to uphold our constitution.
So it is deeply disturbing, deeply disturbing as a lawyers,

(16:37):
as a person who has fought for civil rights for decades,
who represents an institution, the Legal Defense Fund, that has
used the law and the power of law and research
and people in nonviolent, peaceful ways to help evolve this
country for over eighty five years.

Speaker 4 (16:55):
It is one of the most.

Speaker 10 (16:58):
Concerning matters at this moment to see the legal profession buckle. However,
there are more of us who have stood firm than
have buckled, and we shouldn't lose sight of that. There
was an amicus brief that the Legal Defense Fund filed
in support of Perkins Couy and Wilmer Hale and General
Block three law firms that are actually litigating against the

(17:19):
Trump administration because of their lawless executive orders. And we're
proud to stand with those law firms and to remind
the courts that not only is what is happening unlawful
in this moment, but it harkens back to a time
period where organizations like ours and civil rights lawyers in
the South were harmed and threatened, and there were attempts

(17:44):
to intimidate us from pursuing what we knew, what was
right under the law from pursuing our efforts to end
legal apartheid in this country, and we stood firm and
we prevailed. And that's what these law firms and lawyers
must do today. When you face lawlessness in the eye,
it is your obligation to use the power of law

(18:06):
to defeat that lawlessness, that effort to undermine everything that
we stand for and why we came into this profession
in the first place.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
Because if we don't hold the line, we will.

Speaker 10 (18:22):
Quickly descend into a space that is irretrievably harmful for
our citizens and frankly for the entire future of this country,
our national security, our national standing. Really, it is a
slipery slope into a true spiral that I don't know
we will ever recover from if we don't start to
gain hold of it.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
And you know, it's always amazing, Janey, and I say,
I tell pop this all the time. It's always amazing
when people finally wake up and realize what's going on.
New York Times columnist David Brooks, conservative columnist drop this
and it says, what's happening is not normal. America needs

(19:05):
an uprising that is not normal, and he goes on
and he writes about how Empires died, and then he
said Trump is.

Speaker 7 (19:15):
A misthreatening all of that.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
It is primarily about the acquisition of power, power for
its own sake. It is a multi front assault to
make the earth a playground for ruthless men. So of
course any institutions that might restrain power must be weakened
or destroyed.

Speaker 7 (19:30):
Trump Ism is about ego.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
Appetite and acquisitiveness, and it's driven by a primal aversion
to the higher elements of the human spirit, learning, compassion,
and scientific one of the pursuit of justice. When you
see the capitulation of media unwilling to do stores, when
you see oh, let's cut deals with Trump so our

(19:53):
mergers can go through, and who cares if he's suing
us because sixty minutes interviewed Vice Pressure and Kamla Harris
or ABC cutting their deal and the money going to
his library. What this is about is let me break
any institution that could shine a light upon me. You know,

(20:18):
when I do this show, I'm literally sitting across from
this portrait of Ida b Wells Barnett, and it hangs
at our studio.

Speaker 7 (20:28):
Otto by W.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Wells Barnett is Harry Belafonte, and it's James Baldwin. And
every time I see that Oda b Wells Barnett photo
and it's get a shot of that.

Speaker 7 (20:41):
The quote that she has is right there when she talks.

Speaker 11 (20:45):
About, uh, the way, the way to see truth, it's.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
Shine a light upon the darkness, uh in media. If
there's a moment where media has to be willing to
challenge power, this is it. If there's any a moment
where media has to inform the public of.

Speaker 7 (21:05):
What's going on, this is it.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
When people hit me and go, you know what, man,
y'all keep talking about Trump and MAGA, that's just enough.
I'm like, no, it's not if you don't understand that
what is happening literally is about impacting the next fifty
to one hundred years, a total destruction of civil rights.

(21:29):
That's what That's what we are fighting. We are fighting
literally for the next two to three generations.

Speaker 4 (21:37):
I could not agree more Roland.

Speaker 10 (21:39):
So you know you said, when people wake up, what
will they what will they?

Speaker 4 (21:43):
Will they see?

Speaker 10 (21:45):
And that's why there was this quote unquote war on
woke because they want people to remain asleep, to have
their eyes closed to the criminality, to the corruption, to
the destruct that we are seeing play out. Those of
us who knew this was coming, those of us who
saw the signs of it, those of us who have

(22:07):
been screaming about the embers of white nationalism that are
still burning in this country.

Speaker 4 (22:14):
And now are a flame, we knew this was happening.

Speaker 10 (22:19):
That is why there are all of these efforts to
ban books, to put limitations on protest, to stop people
from being able to vote. There is an effort to
take away all the levers of power, all the potential
accountability of government, to take it and wrest it from

(22:41):
the hands of the people, and to put it in
the hands of a very small, increasingly wealthy minority of
people who do not have this country's interests at heart
at all. It's only self interest, self aggrandizement, self serving,
self dealing that is happening on the part of many

(23:04):
in this administration, and so it is incumbent upon the
media to lay those truths bare. This transcends party, This
transcends politics. We're talking about basic fundamental rights. We're talking
about whether the United States of America as we have
known it for the past sixty and nearly two hundred

(23:26):
and fifty years, whether it's going to continue to exist,
whether we're going to continue to be in a free society.
And we can continue to debate all sorts of policies,
we can continue to have partisan politics and all sorts
of things where we agree to disagree, but one thing
we must stand united on is whether we want the

(23:49):
United States of America to continue to exist, because that
is the threat that we're facing.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
And so many people have been sounding this alarm, and.

Speaker 10 (23:58):
I'm glad that more people are waking up to that
piercing sound, and I hope it won't be too late
before everyone recognizes the enormity of the threat that we face.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
And this is one of the reasons why we have
said on this show, this is not a moment to rest,
This is not a moment to check out. This is
not a moment for folks to say, hey, you know what,
that's someone else's fight, because what is happening will impact
every single one of us.

Speaker 10 (24:26):
That's absolutely right. Everyone has to get engaged. Everyone has
a role to play. I don't care what your position is,
where you're located, what your identity is, you have a
contribution to.

Speaker 4 (24:38):
Make in this effort to save our democracy.

Speaker 10 (24:42):
In this war against freedom, this war against truth, this
war on education. Everybody has a role to play, and
that can be any number of things, including how you
spend your money, including how much you hold your elected
officials and your representatives to account, including your ability just
to educate your neighbors and friends and reach out and

(25:04):
call people into this fight. It's imperative that each one
of us find a role to play, because whether.

Speaker 4 (25:11):
You think you're in this or not, you absolutely are.

Speaker 7 (25:14):
No one is exempt, indeed, indeed JD and Nel. So
we appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
Thanks a lot, Thank you, Roland.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
Folks going to break, we write back Roland Martin unfiltered
right here on the Blackstore Network.

Speaker 6 (25:26):
Next on the Black Table with me Greg car the
enormous impact of race education and diffirmative action in America
and how, believe it or not, white America is starting
to feel a little bit of the bank. Doctor Natasha Warrick,
who joins us with a case study of one suburban
community and how it reacted when the minority students started

(25:49):
to accept and most people didn't say this explicitly, but
was that.

Speaker 12 (25:53):
You know, the academics are getting standards, are.

Speaker 13 (25:55):
Getting higher in part because of the Asian kids, and that.

Speaker 12 (25:59):
Is making our kids really stressed out.

Speaker 14 (26:02):
So we need to reduce the amount of homework teachers
are allowed to.

Speaker 12 (26:06):
Assign.

Speaker 6 (26:07):
She shares a perspective that you don't want to miss.
That's on the next Black Table, only on the Black
Star Network.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Hey, this is Motown recording artist Kim.

Speaker 7 (26:18):
You are watching Roland Martin unfiltered? Boy? He always unfiltered,
though I ain't never known him to be filtered? Is
there anohing? Is there another way to experience rolling Martin
than to be unfiltered? Course he's unfiltered. Would you expect
anything less? Why watch? Watch?

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Watch what happens next?

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Folks, My panel Michael m otep hosts African History Network
show Our Detroit. Kennis Kelly, legal analyst who hosts Not
All Hoods, South Orange, New Jersey.

Speaker 7 (26:53):
Matt Manning, civil.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Rights attorney Corpus Christi, Texas. Kennis, want to start with you.
You heard what Jane had to say right there, and
you know this is a moment where the law matters
above the Supreme Court is equal justice under law, and
what we are seeing, we are literally seeing judges conservative judges,

(27:16):
Reagan appointed judges, Trump appointed judges.

Speaker 7 (27:22):
Say, the hell is going on.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
There is a thing called the Constitution, and you cannot
ignore it just because you got elected.

Speaker 14 (27:31):
Yeah, there's a thing called the Fifth Amendment. There's a
thing called the fourteenth Amendment. There's a thing called due process,
which we have never ignored in our country in terms
of not having someone responds with you not have ignored it,
but not on this level.

Speaker 12 (27:45):
And I think what's.

Speaker 14 (27:45):
Really interesting is that normally you go through the court system, right,
and you figure out if you need to ultimately go
to the Supreme Court of the land, the United States
Supreme Court. You get your answer, and it trickles down
whether it's civil rights or whether it's segregation or gay marriage.
The Supreme Court speaks, and then everybody listens.

Speaker 12 (28:04):
Now this is precedent.

Speaker 14 (28:06):
I mean, we've talked about some things that have been
unprecedented that Trump has done, but we've seen them in
some way, shape or form from other people. This right
here before last week. If you're talking about a nine
to zero decision, that in and of itself is almost
an anomaly these days.

Speaker 12 (28:22):
Especially when you have conservative.

Speaker 14 (28:24):
Justices that outweigh the liberal justices. Now we've got the decision,
and what happens, Trump completely ignores it. This is why
people should be paying attention now. It was really different
last week. It used to be wait and see what
the court said. Now the courts have spoken and nobody's listening.
So what's really important is is that if Trump is

(28:47):
saying we need a separation of these powers and this
is our international rights that we have to deal with
things on an international level, well then Congress has to
do their job and say, well, if we're setted as
we are, then they have to do their job.

Speaker 12 (29:04):
To make something happen otherwise. Otherwise.

Speaker 14 (29:07):
This isn't just precedents for people who are taking off
the streets and go tell Salvador. This is a precedent
for anything else that Trump wants to do when he
says the Supreme Court has spoken, but you know what,
I'm just going to ignore it, just like I did
in the case of Garcia. That's what this is about.
It's not just about Garcia. It is such a big

(29:28):
picture everybody. If you think it's not going to affect you,
this is the time to be paying attention. History just happened.
This is precedent that we have never ever seen.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
It is crazy to me, Matt, when you look at
the decisions, when you look at just a flat out line,
you know one of the people who I mean he
just and again to work for Trump means that you
have to be a massive liar yourself, and that is
the despicable white nationalist Stephen Miller.

Speaker 7 (30:02):
Listen to this.

Speaker 15 (30:06):
We'll ask you about you mentioned bu La in the
fact that Garcia is now in El Salvador's custody. But
the question is, as President Trump expressed any interest at
all in seeing Garcia moved to a different country or
would he want him to stay in El Salvador, did
you discuss that with the PELA or any of his advisors,
specifically with Integration.

Speaker 16 (30:25):
Well, the Supreme Court has been abundantly clear when it
overturned the lower court ruling that the foreign policy of
the United States cannot be compelled by district court. The
view of our administration has been very clear and consistent
that this man is a subject and citizen of El Salvador,

(30:46):
and Al Salvador as a sovereign country, has informed us
repeatedly and publicly that it is their desire and intention
to retain custody of him, and of course we as
a US government cannot forcibly retrieve him against the witches.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
At ol Savage.

Speaker 7 (31:00):
He's lying, is that what Supreme Court said? He's lying
for not line.

Speaker 5 (31:06):
That's also why we have extradition. We have an entire
process whereby sovereigns recognize the sovereignty of another country but
also recognized their own sovereignty in so far as they're
able to retrieve their citizens under certain circumstances. We know
Miller is not being honest. And it's interesting because we
focus so much on mister Trump because he is the

(31:28):
one who is the president, but it's people like Steven
Miller who are really driving the ship with this insane policy.
And it's terrifying that they are really trying to justify
what they've already admitted was a mistake that does not
have any basis in fact. And if you noticed the
moment that it came out that their lawyer admitted that
they made a mistake and he was an administrative error,

(31:51):
paperwork error, however they framed it, they then tried to
pivot and start saying, well, he's a member of MS
thirteen and herod and exactly what you say them do
to black people very often when we have any kind
of criminal issue that's in the national zeitgeist, they immediately
just start making ad hominyms on mister Garcia. As though
to Candas's earlier point, he's not afforded the due process

(32:14):
rights that any one of the United States of America is.
Even those who are naturalized citizens or those who have
some authorization to be here and are not fully naturalized citizens,
they're due process. You don't just get to spirit someone
away and divest them of their opportunity to go in
front of a judge and disprove what the government's allegations are.
And that's what we're seeing here. We're seeing not only

(32:36):
something unprecedented, but we're seeing something that is offensive to
the fundamental ethos of this country, the idea that you
at least get to stand in front of a judge
and say make the government prove it what they're saying
is not true. Instead, the government whisked this man away
and then is now, you know, thumbing its nose at
federal judge telling them to kick rocks, which is not
only unprecedented, but frankly, it upsets our entire system of

(33:00):
the courts because the courts frankly are like our currency.
They're basically fiat courts, meaning they only have authority to
the extent that we recognize they have authority. The moment
the most powerful person in the world says, I don't
recognize their authority. That authority is forever marred and really undermined.
And that's what we're seeing. And the sad reality is

(33:21):
all of the defendants and all of the litigants who
go into a federal courthouse now still have to adhere
to the judge, despite the fact and the judge's orders,
despite the fact that the President of the United States
is telling the judges to kick rocks and openly calling
for their impeachment and other kind of you know, negative
actions towards them. So we're in an unprecedented space and
one that fundamentally shifts how the country exists.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
Michael, you can see right here, this is the New
York Times, and how this is on the White House
Twitter feed. How they mock this up and they strike
strike out wrongly, They strike out Maryland Man put in Ms.
Thirteen and legal alien and then they go Who's never
coming back? Even though even though the Supreme Court a

(34:06):
firm decision that they have to facilitate the return of
this man. The sheer arrogance of this is astounding. And
again what their goal is. If they can break the courts,
then they have a wide of impact way to do
whatever they want.

Speaker 17 (34:26):
Yeah, Roland, this is what white nationalism unleashed looks like
and the lawlessness of it. After the Department of Justice
admitted that he was wrongly taken out of the country

(34:47):
in defiance of US Supreme Court ruling nine nothing ruling
including the three justices that Donald Trump nominated. This is
what you're looking at. And you have some people who say, Okay,
we're in a constitutional crisis right now because you have
Donald Trump and the Department of Justice defying and you

(35:09):
a Supreme Court decision. But I would push back and
say we entered into a constitutional crisis at twelve noon
on January twentieth, twenty twenty five, when a man who
incited the insurrection in violation in Section three the Fourteenth
Amendment was inaugurated as president. Even though the US Supreme

(35:29):
Court came up with the ruling that the Fourteenth Amendment
doesn't say. They said that state government does not have
the authority to remove somebody from the ballot for a
federal election. The US Constitution doesn't say that they just
made some shit up, but you know so, but hashtag
we try to say this is what we warned people about.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
So this is a severe fight right here.

Speaker 17 (35:54):
So we're going to have to continue to file lawsuits,
continue to organize. What Senator Chris van Holland did was
very courageous, I think, okay, and this puts a lot
of pressure on the Department of Justice, on Donald Trump,
but also on ol.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Salvador El Salvador as well.

Speaker 17 (36:16):
So we have to continue to fight.

Speaker 7 (36:27):
Fighting.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
The Verra Institute Justice, an organization dedicated to ending master
cast RACI and enhance the community safety, recently reported that
they were contacted by Elon Muski's Department of Government Efficiency, you.

Speaker 7 (36:40):
Know that fake department.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
According to Verra, Doge intended to assign a team to
work with them and plan to do the same with
every nonprofit receiving federal funding. However, Vera's legal team pushed back,
questioning Dolge's legal authority to investigate them, especially since the
Justice Department had recently discontinued it's grants severa.

Speaker 7 (37:01):
As a result, doges with DRE.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
Its requests in Sho Raman, the vice president of Advocacy
and Partnerships at the Vera Institute, Jones right now and Shah,
this is utterly insane. This notion that Elon Musk can
insert himself into nonprofits, federal agencies, USAID, into law firms.

(37:30):
This idea that we have the authority to not only
look at grants, but go inside of institutions and essentially
todd take them over.

Speaker 18 (37:43):
It is insane and it is dangerous. It's such dangerous precedent. So,
as you said, Boland, we were contacted by DOJE, and
we believe that they thought they can come in and
take over our organization as we have historically received federal
funding to do the important mission driven work we do

(38:06):
to end mass incarceration, to fight for immigrant rights, and
to build safe, thriving communities. Now, the Very Institute of
Justice is a sixty four year old national organization. Many
of your viewers might not have heard of us, but
we have been around doing this work with government partners
and communities across the country in red states, blue states,

(38:27):
and everywhere in between, to actually make sure that our
communities are safer and that we are investing in the
services and programs that help people thrive. Now, none of
that should be controversial, and yet when we received a
notice of termination of our federal funding two fridays ago
from the Department of Justice, they told us they were

(38:49):
cutting our funding because your priorities and your work no longer.

Speaker 19 (38:53):
Fits within the agency's perview.

Speaker 18 (38:56):
Now, what we did immediately was write an open letter
to Attorney General Bondy to call out the hypocrisy of
cutting funding for services. And I'll tell you exactly the
grants that we got what they were supporting. They were
supporting our work with prisons to make them safer and
to make sure there's dignity for correctional staff and for

(39:16):
people who are incarcerated, to make sure that law enforcement
knows how to provide services for survivors of domestic violence
and crime, and to make sure that in communities where
people are in mental health crisis, we actually provide services
and the right response. All of that should be non controversial,

(39:36):
and yet we were targeted for our federal funding to
be cut. So the question is why, And it's because
VERA works on immigration and crime, the two issues that
are easily caricatured by the right. We have been in
right wing media circles sort of a constant punchline of
these defund the police and open border liberals funded by

(40:00):
George Soros, even though we are none of those things.
And so when we called out the Attorney General and
asked for her to reconsider her decision, we knew we
might be opening ourselves up for attack. We did not
expect DOGE to come knocking, and yet they did. And
so it's just wild to us that this is how

(40:20):
this administration is operating. And it's wild to us that
a Department of Government Efficiency that was literally set up
to say, let's look at government agencies is coming knocking
on the door of an independent nonprofit organization.

Speaker 7 (40:38):
Well, what's weird is.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
If you look at what your organization does. I thought
that supposedly dovetails with the First Step Act. Donald Trump
is always taking credit for that, So you would think.

Speaker 7 (40:56):
That if they were real about that.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Name Alice Johnson, Partons are Tamika Sam Topeka Sam is
working with them.

Speaker 7 (41:08):
But I guess they really don't like groups that focus
on mass incarceration.

Speaker 18 (41:13):
Yeah, they don't like groups that are willing to call
out this administration and called balls and strikes and we
have since January twentieth been public in our opposition to
this administration's mass deportation agenda and gutting federal funding under
Health and Human Services and other agencies for basic treatment, counseling,

(41:35):
access to programs in communities that actually prevent crime and
break its cycle. So they don't like people who are
willing to call out their political agenda for what it is.
And mind you, the work that we do is all
evidence driven. We are an organization that bases everything we do,
the policies that we advocate for based on research. But

(41:56):
this is an administration that is not looking at evidence.
It's looking solely at politics. And now, when the Department
of Justice funding was cut, we thought that might be
the end of it. But when DOGE came knocking, we
did ask, why do you think you have authority to
investigate us? To ask to assign a team to us,
which we knew was a euphemism for taking us over,

(42:19):
and they said, well, we're actually planning to assign a
DOGE team to every agency and institute that receives Congressional monies,
and so that should be alarming. By our count there
are about one hundred thousand nonprofit organizations across the country
that receive some amount of federal funding. And if Doge
plans to go take all of those over, that is

(42:43):
a terrible and scary president for our communities and for
what happens for the services of you know, and the
good work that nonprofits do. Now, the other part that
Doge said to us was when we asked, well, what
does working with an organization look like, they actually reference
the US Institute of Peace. And if folks are following

(43:04):
that story, we know that by working with them, Literally,
what Doge did was go and take over their building,
take over the entire organization, fire all of.

Speaker 7 (43:13):
Their skiff, yes, fire everyone exactly, and.

Speaker 18 (43:15):
Then literally put in install Doge staff for a twenty
seven year old to be the new executive director of
the US Institute of Peace. So that's what nonprofits across
the country can expect if Doge comes knocking on your door.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Yeah, and we know that is utterly insane. So it
is just crazy to see what we are experiencing.

Speaker 7 (43:39):
And they want.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
To tear down nonprofits, They want to tear down in go's,
they want to go after everyone. They literally want to
completely eradicate I keep saying for African Americas. They want
to completely destroy the economic and the civil rights infrastructure.
They want to completely incapacitate these groups and spend the
nex four years and making their lives extremely difficult in

(44:04):
order to drive their agenda.

Speaker 7 (44:08):
Pure and simple it is.

Speaker 18 (44:10):
It's as simple as that it really is, and we
have been really public about this. We had the Washington
Post break a story the night that we spoke to
Doge earlier this week, because we think sunlight is a
really important disinfectant. Because I agree with you, Roland. All
this administration wants to do is advance their agenda, and

(44:30):
they don't care about who they harmed, the very real
impact that it will have on families and communities, And
so we need to call this out because by calling
it out, hopefully we can stop it here as opposed
to encroaching on other organizations. Maybe other organizations aren't able
to call it out and push back in the way
that we are. We decided, yes, losing five million dollars

(44:54):
of federal funding is a big hit, but it would
be a much bigger hit if they come after other
organizations where their entire funding is federal funding and they're
doing important work, and maybe they can't push back in
the way that we can. So we're hoping sunlight is
the biggest disinfectant and that being loud and asking for
solidarity will help to stop this in his tracks.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
You also can't cut deals with these thugs because they're
going to keep going.

Speaker 19 (45:20):
That's right. We have seen that.

Speaker 18 (45:21):
You know one thing I say to the point of
dismantling nonprofit organizations, this is an administration that has systematically
kneecapped the media, law firms, academic institutions. They're coming for
the foundations of civil society, which are these NGOs.

Speaker 19 (45:38):
They're coming for us next.

Speaker 7 (45:41):
Indeed, and she we certain appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

Speaker 19 (45:43):
You up the fight, Thank you, thanks for having me.

Speaker 7 (45:46):
Folks. We come back Democratic Maryland Center.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
Christopher the holland return from El Salvador will show you
what he had to say and also how the president
of L Savaldor which tried to set them up by
saying that all they were just enjoying margeritas.

Speaker 7 (45:59):
By the pool.

Speaker 11 (46:01):
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(46:51):
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Speaker 7 (46:53):
We'll be right back.

Speaker 4 (46:58):
This week.

Speaker 20 (46:59):
On the other side of change, Black Maternal Healthy.

Speaker 21 (47:02):
The racial disparities are undeniable, making it clear that black
people experience racism from the room America and America's healthcare
system has not taken the time to invest in what
quality health kill looks like for black prison people.

Speaker 13 (47:14):
The date of black maternal health and the United States
is still dismal.

Speaker 22 (47:20):
It is environmental racism, it is systemic racism.

Speaker 4 (47:24):
It is the systems that we are born into.

Speaker 20 (47:26):
Only on the other side of change. On the Blackstar.

Speaker 8 (47:28):
Network, I'm Russell ol Honoree, Lieutenant Gerald the United States
sorrow retired and you're watching Rural Martin.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
I'm healthy.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
Democratic Maryland Senator Christopher the Holland says he has met
with kil Mar Armando Abrego Garcia, the man mistakenly deported
there to a high security prison for terrorists back to
the US, and how imposted this on the social media.
He talked about what his main goal is. He also
when he landed in the United States, he also spoke

(48:04):
about what took place and debunking a lot of the
lives that have actually been spread as well. This is
the tweet you see it right there. What he had
to say. This is him speaking about so called Margarita Gate,
talking about talking about you know what was being brought

(48:26):
up in how frankly they were being set up by
the el Salvador President.

Speaker 7 (48:32):
So check this out. Let me play this for you.
Here we go.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Sure, now, I just want to take a moment.

Speaker 23 (48:39):
I hadn't planned to do this, but as I was
landing on the airplane, I got a transcript of some
questions President Trump was asked at the White House today
about what I would call Margarita Gates. I don't know
if you guys have been following this, but President Bouquela,

(49:01):
you know, after I met with Kilmar, did this tweet
showing us at a table.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
With these two glasses.

Speaker 23 (49:10):
So here's what happened.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
When I first sat down.

Speaker 23 (49:14):
With kill Mar, we just had glasses of water on
the table, I think maybe some coffee. And as we
were talking, one of the government people came over and
deposited two other glasses on the table with ice and
I don't know if it was salt or sugar around

(49:34):
the top, but they look like Margarita's. And if you
look at the one they put in front of Kilmar,
it actually had a little less liquid than the one
in me. In front of me to try to make
it look I assume like he drank out of me.
Let me just be very clear, neither of us touched
the drinks that were in front of us. And if

(49:57):
you want to play a little Sherlock Holmes, I'll tell
you how you can know. So if you look at
the video or the picture I sent out from the
beginning of our meeting, you'll see there are no glasses
on the table. So you'll see in later videos there
are on the table. But they made a little mistake.
For some people are very careful.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Right, if you.

Speaker 23 (50:17):
Sip out of one of those glasses, some of whatever
it was, salt or sugar would disappear.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
You would see a gap. There's no gap.

Speaker 23 (50:26):
Nobody drank any Margarita's or sugar water or whatever it is.
But this is a lesson into the lengths that President
Boukayley will do to deceive people.

Speaker 7 (50:38):
About what's going on.

Speaker 23 (50:39):
And it's also shows the lengths that the Trump administration
of the President will go to because when he was
asked about a reporter about this, he just went along
for the ride.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
Bottom line is, we have a thug sending in the
Oval office and these people have no respect at all
of the law. One of the things that we are
seeing play out here, Matt is, as we said earlier,
they want to position this as, oh, here are Democrats
of defending an MS thirteen.

Speaker 7 (51:08):
Game member wife beater? How dare you? Because they want
to ignore that the law matters.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
And if there's somebody, if there's somebody black, because we
already know this the case, who's going I don't care.
We know about black people who are American citizens who.

Speaker 7 (51:30):
Have not gotten due process.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
Due process means prosecutors don't withhold evidence. Due process means
you don't strike people from.

Speaker 7 (51:42):
Juries because they're black.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Due process means you don't fake evidence, and an every
example I just use, we've had numerous black people who
have been the victims of a failure of due process
in this country.

Speaker 5 (52:00):
That's spot on. But you know what's really interesting something
you alluded to is what we have not had, at
least historically, is we have not had the highest law
enforcement agency in the country being patently dishonest in front
of federal judges and the way they are now. And
you're talking about due process, what people may know is
in the federal and in the state system, there's a

(52:21):
law called Brady, or there's a former case called Brady,
and basically that requires that a prosecutor has to give
any evidence that may be exculpatory or mitigating to a
criminal defendant, right, and most states have a corollary law.
The reason that's important is now I think DJ is
going to have to give brady on itself because you
have DJ prosecutors standing in front of a judge either

(52:43):
lying or obfuscating or otherwise, you know, withholding evidence. And
that's something that you here accused people accusing, you know,
prosecutors of often in criminal cases. But it's now something
that we have demonstrative evidence on that DOJ lawyers are
doing and are being fired for this instances where they're
being honest. So due process for black people, for non

(53:04):
white people has long been an issue in this country,
but we have never, in my understanding, historically, ever had
circumstances where DJ is patently being dishonest. You know, it's interesting.
I wasn't born, you know, in nineteen seventy eight. I
wasn't alive, But when I saw that Van Holland was
going down to El Salvador, I frankly thought about Congressman Leo.

Speaker 7 (53:25):
Ryantep because Bukele.

Speaker 5 (53:27):
One of the things that I think has been lost
in the media narrative about everything going on with Gilmar
Garcia and all the people being deported. Is the fact
that Bukell is an authoritarian. He's an autocrat as much
as an autocrat exists. He thrives on the opportunity to
be autocratic on the national and on the global scale.
So him and Trump are two peas in a pod

(53:49):
in this respect, And it's doubly problematic that it's El
Salvador in particular, because he revels in the opportunity to
be an authoritarian right and to have this megaprison and
to enjoy I mean, think about the tweet that he
sent out when the plane was in the air and
you just said, oops, I mean, how ominous is it
that he's sending a tweet that way. So I'm glad

(54:12):
that there's proof of life of mister Garcia, but I
am not in any way surprise that they're being dishonest
about the truth of what happened with the whole Margarita gate,
and that we're seeing on the larger scale Bugle engaging
in exactly the kind of dishonesty and autocratic policy that
Trump is.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
When you are dealing with thugs, you have to respond accordingly, Candice,
and this is not a situation where will let's give
them a benefit of the doubt. No, you cannot. These
are thugs. These are people who do not care about
the law. What they care about is whatever they consider the.

Speaker 7 (54:50):
Law to be.

Speaker 14 (54:52):
And you know what, I think what's most interesting is
that we have known this, it's just now that we're
seeing it so much more blatantly. I think it kind
of pacified people to have that expectation, which leads people
to kind of lean back.

Speaker 12 (55:04):
A little more.

Speaker 14 (55:05):
Remember when years ago, when Trump would do something, it
would be ridiculous and out of this world. You couldn't
believe it. He couldn't even won the presidency. And now
people are kind of like, you know, very even kill
about responses because he's trained everybody to be that way.
He's trained everybody to read media in a way that
is just like they edited when you pulled up that

(55:27):
New York Times article, or train people to have a
serious press conference about somebody's freedom internationally who didn't have
any due process. But we're talking about margaritas. That is
the part of their plan.

Speaker 12 (55:41):
So we really have to.

Speaker 14 (55:42):
Be really critically discerning about what we are looking at
in the media or else we're all just going to
be confused and kind of trumping out each other with
mis and disinformation.

Speaker 12 (55:54):
But that's exactly where they want us to be.

Speaker 14 (55:56):
So this is really a good time to think about,
like you are the outlets that are giving information that
is real, and as ourselves being good consumers so that
when we look at stories like this, we can actually
see the lies and not just say, oh, yeah, that's expected.

Speaker 12 (56:14):
I think that's one of the travesties.

Speaker 14 (56:15):
Of this whole thing, this long press conference and how
much he's spent talking about Margueritaville.

Speaker 3 (56:23):
What we have to recognize, Michael, if there is a
clear impact here, and I want people watching and listening
to recognize if this is not inside baseball, this is
not all minutes.

Speaker 7 (56:35):
That doesn't impact me.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
When you heard Inta talk about a severe institute, how
that nonprofit is being impacted. Services, real services are going
to be neglected. People are not going to be able
to truly access a variety of things in this government,
the massive cuts that they have made, you're already seeing

(56:57):
what the impact is going to be. So we must
be vigilant about this. And again, black institution must be
constantly on guard because listen, we're on the chopping block.
If it's black, they're going to slap everything under DEI.

Speaker 17 (57:14):
Absolutely, and they're doing that everything from removing Harriet Tubman
from the National Park Service website and talking about the
underground railroad. Yes they're restored it, but we keep seeing
these stories of African American history, the black erasure of
African American history from government websites, and then certain information

(57:36):
is partly restored or.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
What have you. We see the attack.

Speaker 17 (57:39):
We see the closing down of the Minority Business Development
Agency because of an executive order from Donald Trump, and
we know that has helped African American own businesses get
federal contracts.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
We see the lawsuit.

Speaker 17 (57:57):
There was a lawsuit in February that the National Urban
League entered into against the Trump administration because of the
attacks on DEI. We just see the NAACP has launched
a lawsuit as well against the Department of Education and

(58:17):
their attacks on DEI.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
So we see these attacks all across the board.

Speaker 17 (58:21):
And then also, as you've been talking about here, the
shedding of tens of thousands of government jobs. If we
just look at the US Postal Service, US Postal Service
employees about six hundred and forty thousand people, twenty nine
percent of them are African American. Okay, so when we
look at these attacks on the federal government. However, when

(58:44):
we look at these attacks on federal jobs, when we
look at these attacks on various programs, how whatever excuse
they use to attack especially African Americans, they're doing that,
whether they say they're fighting anti Semitism, whether they say
they're fighting against diversity, equity and inclusion, whether they say, oh,
there's too many people employed in this government agency.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
We see these constant attacks.

Speaker 17 (59:07):
So we have to educate ourselves on what's happening and
fight back as well.

Speaker 7 (59:12):
Absolutely, folks, quick break, we come back.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
What happens if a racist acts a fool, you videotape it,
then the bigot turns around and ensues you.

Speaker 7 (59:21):
Yeah, it actually happened. We'll tell you about that next.
Try to hear on the black Star Network.

Speaker 24 (59:28):
This week on a Balanced Life with Doctor Jackie. Here
on Blackstar Network, we are talking about all things you
got it Stress.

Speaker 4 (59:35):
Related, Yes, the big s.

Speaker 24 (59:38):
Whether it's spiritual, physical, emotional, or sometimes.

Speaker 4 (59:41):
It could be just in your head. Stress has a
way of.

Speaker 24 (59:44):
Manifesting itself in our lives in such a way that
it disrupts who we are and who we're in the
process of becoming.

Speaker 20 (59:52):
Stress is just as bad as a lot.

Speaker 19 (59:55):
Of the physical elements that we think of.

Speaker 24 (59:57):
That's all next on a balanced Lights on the Black
Star Net.

Speaker 17 (01:00:02):
This is Samula and this is David Man, and you're
watching roland Mark.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Until months after video surface showing Jonathan Spano is the
owner of a restaurant in Pennsylvania going on a racist
tirade during what looked like a road rage incident, repeated
using the N word and saying I'm a rapist.

Speaker 7 (01:00:25):
Okay, well just watch yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
And yeah, you're half nigger brother.

Speaker 5 (01:00:34):
Brother, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Keep video.

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
Okay, you got you said the N word like on camera.

Speaker 8 (01:00:44):
That's gonna be great for you.

Speaker 4 (01:00:46):
That's gonna be great for you, John.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
That's what you did.

Speaker 6 (01:00:58):
I said, he has a half.

Speaker 5 (01:00:59):
Nigger brother beat for you.

Speaker 9 (01:01:02):
I know.

Speaker 7 (01:01:07):
So.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Spatos is now suing the people who filmed him and
post the video online after the backlash she got. He
claims he and his wife never threatened anyone and we're
just talking to a family friend outside their home when
all this happened. He says the video is released has
cost him and his family suddenly emotional distress led to

(01:01:28):
the restaurant's closure. The restaurant's website is down. The places
marked us to really close. This lawsuit asks for damages
and says the video hurt his business and reputation.

Speaker 7 (01:01:38):
Here's him talking at a news conference.

Speaker 25 (01:01:42):
You captured a heated family confrontation in which I intentionally
use the most ugly language known to me to lash
out in anger. I repeatedly use the N word to
inflict pain on another person and sarcastically stated that I

(01:02:06):
was a racist.

Speaker 9 (01:02:09):
I was wrong.

Speaker 25 (01:02:12):
From not walking away from that volatile situation. I was
wrong for responding in anger with hateful language.

Speaker 7 (01:02:27):
I was wrong.

Speaker 5 (01:02:29):
For using a racist term.

Speaker 7 (01:02:31):
I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Canas lets you have a legal claim.

Speaker 14 (01:02:41):
Listen the number one defense to defamation, which is what
he's suing for, and intentional emotional distress.

Speaker 12 (01:02:47):
I believe the.

Speaker 14 (01:02:48):
Number one defense is the truth. So we have the video,
and that's the truth. Even if he was saying it sarcastically,
the truth is that he said it right right, That's
the truth.

Speaker 12 (01:03:02):
He was on public property. Nobody invaded his privacy in
order to get that video.

Speaker 14 (01:03:07):
Nobody did anything that was against the law. They shot
a video that he participated in. He didn't even at
the moment say I, you know, I don't want it.
He was mad about it, but he continued. He decided
to be sarcastic about it in his own words. But
the First Amendment is out there for a reason. You
are allowed to say things like that. The problem is

(01:03:29):
that there are repercussions, There are consequences that there are
hate laws that are in place, and you cannot do that.
So for him to sue for defamation, it's just really
a waste of court filings, proceedings times, and he should
be penalized for that because that is ridiculous.

Speaker 12 (01:03:48):
If it's the truth, it can't be defamation.

Speaker 7 (01:03:52):
Sir.

Speaker 4 (01:03:54):
That's it.

Speaker 9 (01:03:56):
That's it, Matt.

Speaker 5 (01:03:58):
You know, I hate to answer questions after Candas, you're
one of my favorite people, which is still on dred
percent right. The only thing I'll add to that is
I immediately thought of what a lot of states have,
including Texas, what's called anti slap laws. So that's when
you get a lawsuit against you for constitutionally protected activity,
you have a strong defense and most of the time,

(01:04:20):
to Candas's point, those cases are dismissed. Now that's a
little different than defamation. But ultimately here, what I think
you have is exactly what she said. He's on public property,
he's the person is filming exercising their constitutional rights, and
then the dissemination of that. There's nothing illegal about that.
So I frankly do not understand his lawyer's strategy at all.
This seems to me like this is filed to try

(01:04:42):
to save face by saying, you know, we're going to
try to assert some nebulous legal right. But I don't
see a jury of twelve people or six people, however
it's constituted there, thinking that he has a legal claim
at all, because not only is it the truth, I mean,
he can't claim that he was in any way, you know,
goaded or coerced or something into one making the statements,

(01:05:03):
and two he doesn't have any expectation of privacy and
anything that's happening on a public street. I mean, you
use this language and you say these kinds of things
that you're on peril. So his business being shut down
and all of that is his own fault. And I
don't see how a jury would ever think there was
a basis to this legal claim, thank you for stealing everything.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
Can What's also Lara's bikael is, well, you know this
has brought me undue attention.

Speaker 7 (01:05:26):
I guess I guess you want to continue it?

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 17 (01:05:30):
So they're always remorseful after they get caught. You know,
they always apologize and oh, you know, God knows my
heart and you know I'm not that bad of a rasist,
and things like this after they get caught, after it
goes viral, so you know. And the other thing is
he said the end word multiple times, so it sounds

(01:05:51):
like you've had.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Practice with this as well.

Speaker 17 (01:05:54):
So and then did patrons start withdrawing economic support from him,
which they should because you wouldn't want somebody like that
fixing your.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
Food out of your sight, would you.

Speaker 17 (01:06:08):
And now all of this comes back on him and
he's like, oh my god, no, you know, no, come back,
stop it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
So this is.

Speaker 17 (01:06:20):
Now what the legal strategy may be trying to appeal
to the Fox News Trump supporter crowd, trying to get sympathy,
trying to get sympathy, trying to get support, Oh, come
on and eat at my restaurant, things of this nature.
So they may be trying to you know, appeal to that.
So in twenty twenty five, we need to be selective and.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
We'll we spend our dollars eating.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Also, hey, Spanos, I got one for you watching some
an open a restaurant called Bigots are.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Us Biggs and briskets, Big Briskets.

Speaker 5 (01:06:55):
Michael had the ultimate black perspective on this.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
You won't want that man fixing your food.

Speaker 5 (01:06:58):
That's exactly what a big Michael. Thank you?

Speaker 7 (01:07:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 14 (01:07:05):
I will say this that that is one thing that
could could only be uh maybe a possibly good thing
out of this. It's just like Michael said that, you
get somebody to support him, he goes on Fox makes
his rounds, You get some nationalists, some right winger to
start a GoFundMe, Paige in order to help this family.
That all he was doing was expressing his anger. And

(01:07:25):
he is the first of my Amendment right to do this,
and he will get lots of people. I bet if
there was a go fund me page. But that is
the only reason why I could see that they are
doing that.

Speaker 12 (01:07:35):
I agree with Michael.

Speaker 11 (01:07:36):
All right, then, so Cole Cole first of all black
and missy.

Speaker 7 (01:07:56):
Okay, well got come to me. Please all right, y'all
sent on our video there.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Justice Rich has been missing for doing North Carolina since
March twenty six. Eleven year old is five feet three
inches tall with black hair and brown eyes. Animal information
about Justice Rich to call the Durham, North Carolina Police
Department at nine nine five six old forty six hundred
nine nine five six so four to six zero zero.

(01:08:23):
Last story I gotta ask you all about that?

Speaker 7 (01:08:25):
Is this here?

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
Donald Trump has named another head of the RS. There
was a power struggle with Elon Musk. Elon put his
guy in, Scott Bessett. The Trade Secretary's like, no, I'm
over this. So the guy gets kicked out, but his
what's crazy? Trump's picked Billy Long had one hundred and
thirty thousand dollars of his debts just paid off by
individuals who do business with thers.

Speaker 7 (01:08:50):
Mike, I'll start with you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
This is one where Democrats you do not allow that
confirmation hearing to even be held.

Speaker 17 (01:09:01):
You do so the confirmation hearing is in the Senate
for those that don't know, don't know, So you use
every Senate tool that you have, procedural tool to stop
the hearing, but also draw attention to it. Wait a second,
where does this money come from? What type of underhanded tactics.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
Are being used?

Speaker 17 (01:09:20):
How is he going to have to pay somebody back
to one hundred and thirty thousand.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
One hundred thirty thousand. Isn't that how much Michael Cohn took.

Speaker 17 (01:09:27):
Out on a line of credit to payoff Stormy Daniels
to we keep quiet before the twenty sixteen election.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
One hundred and thirty thousand dollars. Interesting number.

Speaker 17 (01:09:37):
So you bring up this and weaponize that, utilize social media,
get that out to people.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
But yeah, stop, stop the nomination.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
What's crazy to here, Candace is this is the new
Jersey dot com storre Billy Long, a former JP lawmaker
and Trump's nominee for IRS Commissioner, said he paid himself
back using campaign donations for a one hundred and thirty
thousand dollars loan he made to his fail twenty twenty
two Senate campaign. The Lever was the first to report
on the filings, and note that since Long loss his

(01:10:09):
bid for the Senate, the campaign committee raised less than
thirty six thousand or However, the campaign committee suddenly took
in nearly one hundred and thirty seven thousand since Trump
announced long as his irs pick. Wow, it's just an
amazing how this money just mysteriously shows up.

Speaker 12 (01:10:31):
Now we're good, right, right, Listen.

Speaker 14 (01:10:36):
I have hope in this process, but I also know
what we've seen.

Speaker 12 (01:10:41):
Will he be wasting taxpayers'.

Speaker 14 (01:10:42):
Money in terms of going through the process going through
some type of confirmation hearing.

Speaker 12 (01:10:47):
He will, But we also know that we've.

Speaker 14 (01:10:49):
Talked to people about their alcoholism and they're cheating and
all different types of things on the Senate floor during
this cycle that we thought would not pass muster, and
certainly he did so I think the verdict is out
on this. Yeah, we know it's a waste, but Lord
knows what the outcome will be.

Speaker 12 (01:11:07):
Because these iss you just can't predict anything.

Speaker 14 (01:11:09):
We just have such a bad precedent across the board
in all branches of the government.

Speaker 4 (01:11:18):
You just don't know.

Speaker 12 (01:11:19):
I mean, this one is really hard to call. But
he's going to sit in front of them.

Speaker 14 (01:11:22):
I don't think that that's going to stop, and everything
possibly could work out in his favor that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:30):
I don't think it's hard, Matt, because it's very simple.
If the Democrats don't show up for committee hearing, you
can't hold a committee hearing.

Speaker 7 (01:11:37):
And my whole deal is you say, when you show
it up, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:11:41):
I like it. I mean, I think Michael's right, and
I think you're right, use every possible tool to prevent this.
But here's the problem. The problem is you don't have
a DOJ that's going to prosecute the inevitable hookups that
he's going to do as the IRS Commissioner if he's confirmed.

Speaker 7 (01:11:55):
Yeah, I mean, this is not a real deal. Jet.

Speaker 3 (01:11:59):
Let's just be let's be real clearly, this is truly
a department of junk.

Speaker 5 (01:12:05):
The normal fail safe would be, you know, a fear
that if you're just openly being bribed that you're going
to end up like Menindez, right, But that's not going
to happen because you have a DJ that is not
going to prosecute. So, I mean, if you're a criminal,
what's the reason for not hooking this man up and
filling his coffers up so when he's the IRS Commissioner
you get that payback favor. We know that's what's going

(01:12:26):
to happen. So the Democrats should try to stop the confirmation.
But once he's confirmed, what you're going to see is
the same kind of graft for seeing across the rest
of the agencies.

Speaker 7 (01:12:35):
Thugs, thugs, thugs.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
And keep in mind one of things Donald Trump did
he got rid of the loggers will that the companies
could not bribe foreign officials.

Speaker 7 (01:12:45):
He's like, nah, we're good, y'all can go back to that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
I'm telling you, this is just this is a If
this was an actual prosecution case, they would try the
Trump administration on reco charges. This is a criminal enterprise.
That's what they are, a criminal enterprise. I've been r

(01:13:07):
Kelly sitting in prison going damn. I wish I had
given us some money because I would get pardoned by
these people.

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
Jesse James on steroids. That's what they are.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
They are a criminal enterprise. They are an absolute They're
not just grifters.

Speaker 7 (01:13:21):
They are thugs. That's what they are, pure.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
And simple, all right, Matt Candice Michael appreciated.

Speaker 7 (01:13:29):
Canna's good to see. It's been a while since you've
been on the show. So glad to have you back. Folks.
Thank you so very much. I appreciated it. Folks. We're
gonna go till break we come back.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
We're going to hear from an author Jean Theo Harris
an amazing book. Every time we talk about doctor King,
it's always the South. It's always Birmingham and Selma. It's Georgia,
it's Atlanta, it's what happened in the South. But the
reality is Dot the King from the beginning was also
focus about the racism that was happening in the North.

(01:14:04):
She details this in a fascinating book. It's a conversation
you are going to enjoy. Don't forget what the work
we do.

Speaker 7 (01:14:10):
Join our Breda Funk fanclub folks.

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
If you want to join up fan club giving cash shop,
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Click the cash apt button to contribute and to continue.

Speaker 3 (01:14:18):
If you're listening, to go to the Blackstart network dot
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if you're gonna sit there checking money order, make it
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(01:14:40):
nine six, PayPal Our Martin unfiltered, NMO is r M
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Rolling That, Rolling Martin Unfiltered dot com. Download the Black
Starting Network app Apple Phone, Android Phone, Apple TV, Android TV, Rocude,
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(01:15:03):
available at bookstores nation wide. Also, be shure to get
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Speaker 7 (01:15:12):
Or the cure code right there.

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Also, don't forget download the app fan base you want
to invest to start Injured dot com.

Speaker 7 (01:15:17):
For slash fan base.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
When we come back my interview My Rollers book Club
interview with Jing and Theoharris on King of the North.

Speaker 7 (01:15:27):
You're watching the Black stud Network.

Speaker 4 (01:15:31):
This week on the other side of chain Black Maternal
Health Week.

Speaker 21 (01:15:34):
people experience racism from the room America, and America's healthcare
system has not taken the time to invest in what
quality healthcare looks.

Speaker 20 (01:15:46):
Like for black flipping people.

Speaker 13 (01:15:47):
The state of black maternal health and the United States
is still dismal.

Speaker 22 (01:15:53):

Speaker 20 (01:15:56):
It is the systems that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:57):
We are born into.

Speaker 20 (01:15:59):
Only on the other side of change on the Blackstar Network.

Speaker 26 (01:16:05):
Now that Roland Martin is ruling to give me the blueprint,
hasty rise, I need to go to Tyler Perry and
get another blueprint because I need some green money.

Speaker 9 (01:16:14):
The only way I can do what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
I need to make your money.

Speaker 4 (01:16:17):
So you'll see me working with Roland.

Speaker 26 (01:16:18):
Matter of fact, it's a Roland Martin and Selandon show
what it should have been show my full show and
the Rolan Ma Show.

Speaker 5 (01:16:23):
Well, whatever show's.

Speaker 7 (01:16:24):
Gonna be, it's gonna be good. All right. Before I
got talking about the book, I gotta ask Jean, are

(01:16:44):
you kid to lend Stele Harris?

Speaker 4 (01:16:47):
Yeah, you know that she's my younger sister. We've talked
about this absolutely.

Speaker 7 (01:16:53):
God, Gene, you gotta go with the bit. You gotta
go with Okay, I'll go.

Speaker 4 (01:16:57):
With the bit. I am listen.

Speaker 7 (01:17:00):
I don't know, of course.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
Reverend Lizteo Harris Repairs of the Breach partner Partner in
Crime with Bishop William Barber go ahead, there you go.

Speaker 4 (01:17:10):
So force of nature herself, right.

Speaker 7 (01:17:12):
Yep, absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:17:15):
It is as lots of people call her, Reverend.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
Liz get let's get into this here. It's called King
of the North, Martin Luther King Junior's life of struggle.

Speaker 7 (01:17:27):
Outside the South.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
A lot of people really don't understand nineteen sixty six.
They don't understand really the depths of the hate that
doctor King experience. And he said when he was there
in the Chicago symbol of Cicero that he never experienced

(01:17:49):
that level of hate anywhere in the South. Why did
you want to explore this aspect of Rever Doctor Martin
Luther King Junior's life.

Speaker 27 (01:18:01):
Well, I mean, I think to begin with, I think
many of us are used to if we think about
doctor King outside the South at all. Right, it is
in those last two years, and when you actually look
more closely, both at his life and his work, the
southernization of doctor King is really kind of limited and inaccurate.

(01:18:24):
Doctor King comes of age in the North at both
Krozer Seminary and Boston University. He experiences both segregation and
the limits of Northern liberalism as a young person in
graduate school, So there is never a time in doctor
King's work, beginning in Montgomery, where he's not calling out

(01:18:47):
the racism and systematic segregation of the North. And when
I use the word North, I'm using it in the
sense that doctor King uses it, which is Doctor King
and many activists at the time use the word North
to talk about everything from the northeast to the Midwest
to the West coast that in many ways define themselves

(01:19:10):
as not being the South in terms of race relations.
They were not the South. They were open, they were free,
they were.

Speaker 4 (01:19:16):
The promis Land.

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
Is the way that they would say that, they would say,
oh no, no, no, no, no, no, We're not them exactly.

Speaker 7 (01:19:24):
We are not them, We're not like.

Speaker 4 (01:19:26):
Them, absolutely.

Speaker 27 (01:19:28):
And so one of the things to understand, and I
think we have not understood, is that from the very
beginning of his leadership, he is calling on Northerners, on
northern liberals, both to be outraged about what's happening in
the South, but equally to be outraged about what's happening
in their very own cities. And that as we start

(01:19:50):
to see some northern outrage about what's happening in the South,
he is saying, okay, but you need to be equally
outraged when someone can't get a job at you or
where you work, or can't buy a house where you live.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):
So I think one of the things that I think
we need to see is that doctor King, from the
very beginning.

Speaker 27 (01:20:10):
Understood that segregation was not a regional sickness but a
national cancer. And he also understood that even some of
the people, some of the white Northerners who began to
get more concerned about what was happening in the South,
and we can think about earlier in American history at
patterns like this, but who assiduously refused.

Speaker 4 (01:20:34):
To confront segregation where they lived.

Speaker 27 (01:20:38):
And so the story of King of the North Right
starts much before, right those moments in nineteen sixty six
in Chicago that you're referring to, and it is a
story of again doctor King calling on people who considered
themselves allies of the civil rights movement to walk the

(01:20:58):
walk where they lived, really challenging this northern gaslighting that said, oh,
the problem is in the South. We might have some
racism here, but it's not systematic like the South. He's
really calling that out, saying it is systematic. So it's
a very different view of doctor King and about what
the expanse both of his work was, but also the

(01:21:20):
expanse of the black freedom struggle.

Speaker 3 (01:21:23):
I like how you start with the preface where you
lay out this speech and who he's talking about and
the issues he's talking about, and you wait for paragraphs
before you reveal the city that he is speaking about.
And because what people even today when they talk about.

Speaker 7 (01:21:47):
These things, they talk about the freedom.

Speaker 3 (01:21:53):
They talk about how things were so different in the West,
how they were different, how there.

Speaker 7 (01:21:58):
Were greater opportunities.

Speaker 3 (01:22:00):
So when blacks left the South and moved up north,
and those things are true, you didn't you didn't have
a segregated water fountains, you didn't have segregated buses, things
on those lines. But you still dealt with the reality
of Jim crow Uh And what really was was really
interesting when when you talk about this, this statewide referendum

(01:22:23):
that dealt with the issue of allowing the citizens to
sell a rented property to as you said, whoever they wished.
This point that you're making here, that's what got Ronald
Reagan elected. This is and so then when you start
thinking about the attacks on the black panthers as well,
caring the rifles and Sacramento. Uh so this all these

(01:22:43):
people they loved talking about.

Speaker 7 (01:22:46):
Liberal California, Yes, liberal, and.

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
It's like no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no, California,
California exactly white was white. So they they operated they
might have been nicer, as you say ownly, the language
was polite, and people keep getting confused by that. And
even King when he went to LA with the riots

(01:23:09):
five years later, was even shocked with the level of
poverty and racism there.

Speaker 7 (01:23:16):
Because he thought it also was a lot different.

Speaker 27 (01:23:20):
Well, I would be careful there, right, I mean, I
think part of what we see doctor when we see
doctor King over and over in La in the years
before the Wats Uprising, right, talking about and joining a
movement around police brutality in the city, calling for Chief

(01:23:41):
William Parker, the head of the LAPD, to be replaced,
marching around school segregation in LA, marching and sort of
campaigning against Proposition fourteen in nineteen sixty four, which is
trying to retain the right of Californians to discriminate in
the sale and rental of their property.

Speaker 7 (01:24:00):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:24:00):
We see King is actually in La more than fifteen times.

Speaker 27 (01:24:04):
Before the Watts Uprising so one of the things that
he will say about the WATS uprising is he will
question this sort of shock, this surprise. He will say,
in fact, if they had listened, if they had acted,
this never would have happened.

Speaker 7 (01:24:23):
Right.

Speaker 27 (01:24:24):
He will tell actually, Mayor Daily, if Mayor Yorty, who
is the mayor in LA had listened, this wouldn't have happened.
So in many ways, part of what King's shock about
Watts is is the level of willful blindness, if you will, right,

(01:24:45):
the level of California as being like, what is this?

Speaker 4 (01:24:49):
Why are black people so angry?

Speaker 27 (01:24:51):
This is a state without discrimination, and doctor King is like, no,
he is very clear that people have been organizing.

Speaker 4 (01:24:59):
He joined with them, and over.

Speaker 27 (01:25:02):
And over public officials, California residents, and the media have
ignored gas lit or distorted those issues to make it
seem like there's not a real problem when people were
clear for years that there was.

Speaker 3 (01:25:18):
I've always said that the problem in this country, whether
we're talking about then or now, is that if it
is not covert, then there's the belief that it's not overt,
that if we don't see it, if it's not a

(01:25:40):
cross burning, if it's not a church burning if it's
not a lynching. Oh no, no, no, things are good
as opposed to no. What he laid out here and
what you're laying out and what he was fighting. This
is literally the opinion of systemic racism. And we're operating
in a day where you have Republican Party and he

(01:26:03):
was some Democrats who do not believe in systemic racism,
who want to make excuses for what is happening, and
they'll oh, that's it's class and some other stuff, but
they want to deny this reality.

Speaker 27 (01:26:20):
Absolutely, And I mean so part of what doctor King
is saying, and again from the nineteen fifties onward, is
he's calling out a northern liberalism that he calls is
you know, he's calling out both sides ism, and he
says it's a kind of quasi liberalism that is so
committed to looking at all sides right that it's committed

(01:26:43):
to none right. That is a criticism that feels so
relevant today. Second, he is talking about a whole range
of systemic racism, some of which is economic violence and
some of which is physical violence. Because I think one
of the other things when you start to look outside
of the South is the ways that even physical violence

(01:27:06):
by white people against black people moving into neighborhoods against
black people desegregating is also treated differently, and particularly treated
differently in this era by the media. So I would
bet most people listening to this show have heard of
Emmett Till, Right, Emmett Till, the Chicago boy who goes

(01:27:29):
to Mississippi to visit his uncle during the summer and
is lynched for saying something to a white woman grocery
store owner. How many of us have ever heard of
Jerome Hughey. Jerome Huey was a seventeen year old Chicago

(01:27:52):
teenager who went for a job interview in the neighborhood
of Cicero in Chicago in May of nineteen sixty six.
His family also owned a grocery store, but their grocery
store was having trouble, so he goes to interview at
a freight loading company.

Speaker 4 (01:28:11):
Now, Cicero, like many neighborhoods in.

Speaker 27 (01:28:14):
Chicago, was a sundown neighborhood or a sundown town. And
what that means is that black people could work in
those neighborhoods, but they were not welcome after dark, They
were not welcome to live there.

Speaker 4 (01:28:27):
They were not welcome to be there, and so on that.

Speaker 27 (01:28:30):
Evening in May of nineteen sixty six, eleven years after
the lynching of emm at Till he is waiting at
a bus stop after his interview, and he is beaten
to death basically by four young white men, and he
will die in the hospital two days later.

Speaker 4 (01:28:51):
Why don't we know his name?

Speaker 7 (01:28:54):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:28:54):
This is an act of This is a lynching.

Speaker 27 (01:29:00):
That happens eleven years after Emmettel in nineteen sixty six,
after the Civil Rights Actions passed, after the Voting Rights
Actors passed, and a young man is killed because he
is in the wrong neighborhood. But again, I bet very
few of us know the name Jerom Hughey because again,
even racial violence is treated differently in the North than

(01:29:24):
it is in the South.

Speaker 3 (01:29:25):
So speaking of that particular point, I think about there
were three deaths that happened in the span of a
couple of months, so we often so we know what
ferguson Michael Brown, how that thing just just blew up,
and it was really that reaction to it. But before that,

(01:29:45):
Eric Garner took place in New York City. But also
what was sandwich in between those two was John Crawford,
the third. It took place in Ohio, and I think
what happens is we see this all the time in media.
What happens is is which one gets the attention.

Speaker 7 (01:30:06):
A lot of people. John, we were at a rally.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
It was the actually the twentieth verse of the Neevand March,
and they had a number of the families.

Speaker 7 (01:30:14):
Who were impacted, who lost children.

Speaker 3 (01:30:17):
And multiple times John Crawford's father would come up to
me and he would say, thank you for continuing to
mention my son's name, because oftentime it doesn't get mentioned.
And I remember that there were a group of women
who were on the front row and they were upset

(01:30:39):
because there were another group that spoke from the podium
that day and it was the prominent names that we
know that became national stories.

Speaker 7 (01:30:52):
And these women were angry, upset, and.

Speaker 3 (01:30:55):
They said, our sons died too, our daughters died too.

Speaker 7 (01:31:00):
Why are we not up on that stage?

Speaker 3 (01:31:02):
And unfortunately how media operates, media picks and chooses which
story gets elevated and becomes a national story.

Speaker 24 (01:31:30):
This week, on the other side of Change Black Maternal
Health Week.

Speaker 21 (01:31:33):
people experience.

Speaker 20 (01:31:37):
Racism from the room.

Speaker 21 (01:31:39):
America, and America's healthcare system has not taken the time
to invest in what quality healthcare looks like for black
birthing people.

Speaker 13 (01:31:46):
Data black maternal health and the United States is still dismal.

Speaker 22 (01:31:52):

Speaker 4 (01:31:55):
It's the systems that we are born into.

Speaker 20 (01:31:58):
Only on the other side of change.

Speaker 28 (01:32:00):
Blackstar Network your particular point of how the people on

(01:32:21):
how media determines if it's big news, it then becomes elevated.

Speaker 27 (01:32:29):
Well, and I think, I mean, I think this media
point is a crucial one because I think one of
the things, one of the myths that we have about
the civil rights movement stems from the media's role in
parts of the Southern struggle. So what we see increasingly
by the late fifties and early sixties is the national

(01:32:50):
media taking Southern racism and the Southern movement seriously.

Speaker 4 (01:32:57):
They are doing rigorous reporting. They are not taking.

Speaker 27 (01:33:01):
What Southern officials say at face value.

Speaker 4 (01:33:04):
They're questioning it.

Speaker 27 (01:33:06):
Reporters are going and spending significant time, and what you
see is some significant coverage. And so if we're thinking
about the Southern struggle and we can think about Congressman
John Lewis saying we would have been a bird without
a song without those reporters.

Speaker 4 (01:33:24):
Okay, at the very.

Speaker 27 (01:33:26):
Same time that this is happening, these same news outlets
are covering the movement in New York, in Boston, in Chicago,
in La very different. One of the things we know
about this period, and we can extrapolate today, is that

(01:33:47):
when you look at Southern media, like if you look
at the Montgomery Advertiser around the Montgomery bus boycott, the
Montgomery Advertiser hates the Montgomery bus boycott, thinks it's un American,
thinks it's disruptive, thinks it's horrible.

Speaker 4 (01:34:02):
But these are the very same kinds of frames that
we will see.

Speaker 27 (01:34:07):
Newspapers like the New York Times use around the New
York City school boycott in February of nineteen sixty four,
which is the largest civil rights protest of the era.

Speaker 4 (01:34:20):
It's almost twice as big as the March on Washington.

Speaker 27 (01:34:24):
But how the New York Times covers it is that
it's violent, unreasonable, reckless, these kinds of frames. So I
think one of the things that's really important, I think
that you're getting us to in terms of the media
is the ways that partly we don't know this story
outside the South because the media at the time was

(01:34:46):
very invested in some ways exposing Southern horrors, questioning Southern officials,
but taking Northern officials if they say.

Speaker 4 (01:34:58):
Oh, we're not discriminating, say they're not discriminating. That's it.
Why are black people so angry? This is so unreasonable?

Speaker 27 (01:35:06):
Ten years after Brown that New York black people are
saying that they're going to boycott schools because there's.

Speaker 4 (01:35:13):
No even plan for desegregation.

Speaker 27 (01:35:15):
Right, how that would have looked if that was in
Birmingham to the New York Times looks very different than
it does when it happens in New York.

Speaker 4 (01:35:22):
So I think the role that the media.

Speaker 27 (01:35:24):
Plays in giving us a narrative about sort of the
I mean, I think there's a set of myths that
the media helps to kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:35:38):
In Trench that are with us today.

Speaker 27 (01:35:40):
One that the media was largely in the South, not
all across the country. Two that black Northerners did not
organize nonviolent movements. In fact, some of the most you know,
expansive mass movements are happening in city like Joadam. Three,

(01:36:04):
Northern Black people couldn't get down with nonviolence, couldn't get
down with doctor King. And this gets us to I
think another point Roland that you're getting us to, which
is the difference between the white mainstream media and how
the black press was covering it. Because if you turn
to the black press in this era, you get a
very different perspective both on the largeness, the robustness all

(01:36:30):
of the different issues that sort of movements all across
the country are taking up. And then when we turn
to the mainstream white press, we get a much different view.

Speaker 3 (01:36:43):
Well, as you were talking, I could not help but
remember that it was a race riot in Harlem that
propelled Adam Clayton Powell from pastor Abyssinian Baptist Church to
the United States ungers. And when you open talking and
again how media covered it. The media covered this as

(01:37:06):
a race riot as opposed to police brutality. This you
open this talking about King in La that story police brutality.
The reality is, when if you look at virtually all
of the race riots that started, nearly all of them
started with the issue of police brutality. Now fast forward

(01:37:28):
to the nineteen nineties, two thousands, of course, George Floyd
and Michael Brown and Eric Garner and John Croppo third,
and I can just keep Kajima Powell. I can just
keep naming names, police brutality, police shootings, police actions. And
I think what you lay out is that's because what

(01:37:50):
you talk in terms of how media covers it is
because what I always try to explain to people, which
is not an indictment of every white person, but the
reality is the folks who control mainstream white media, they
are largely white men. In these white men and including
white women, they bring their subjective biases to the table.

(01:38:14):
So therefore, when they're making editorial decisions, when in television stations,
radio stations, newspaper and now digital, they are seeing the America,
seeing the fifty States, seeing the cities, seeing the neighborhoods
through the prism of their whiteness. And so if they

(01:38:34):
don't even know, I mean, listen, the Colonel Commission. They
didn't agree on a lot. What they did agree on
is that they were were to Americas one white, one black,
and they said the media needed to diversify.

Speaker 7 (01:38:45):
The Colonel Commission was talking.

Speaker 3 (01:38:47):
About DEI diversity, equity, inclusion, and so the fundamental issue
that King had to face is that he was battling
a mainstream white media that had rose color views of
their cities and said this stuff doesn't exist. What the
black folks were like, I'm telling y'all this is real.

(01:39:07):
And the white folks in the city and the state,
regardless of whether we're talking Cicero, Chicago, Illinois, La, California,
New York City, New York State, whatever, they were just like,
I don't know, why what are you.

Speaker 7 (01:39:20):
Black folks talking about?

Speaker 1 (01:39:22):
Y'all got it good?

Speaker 7 (01:39:23):
What's wrong? We're not sicking dogs on you? Right?

Speaker 27 (01:39:27):
And then I mean what King will say right in
the nineteen sixties is while the while the nation trembled
with outrage about police brutality in the South, police brutality
in the North was tolerated, you know, ignored and justified.

Speaker 3 (01:39:46):
But he also but he also called out black people.
Clance Jones writes in his book that here he was
a lawyer in Los Angeles, doing very well economically, Edward King,
and he was like, man, I ain't got time to
be involved in this sort of stuff. I'm getting paid.
And he said, he King gives a speech, and he

(01:40:07):
said it was as if King was bearing into my
was boring into my soul, like he was.

Speaker 7 (01:40:14):
Talking directly to me.

Speaker 3 (01:40:16):
And it was after that speech when Clarence Jones committed
himself to the movement. So King was even talking to
black folks who believed that their lives were so much
better than those southern negroes, right.

Speaker 27 (01:40:32):
And he's also I think there are sort of people
like Clarence Jones, right, who King is kind of challenging
to also step up.

Speaker 4 (01:40:44):
And because one of the things King is noticing, and he.

Speaker 27 (01:40:47):
Will be talking about northern cities by the mid sixties
through a frame of domestic colonialism, and part of what
he is critiquing through that metaphor, he's critiquing the police,
the role of the police and courts as enforcers.

Speaker 4 (01:41:01):
That's his word, not mine.

Speaker 27 (01:41:03):
He's critiquing the ways that people are profiting from black
and miseration.

Speaker 7 (01:41:09):
And he is.

Speaker 27 (01:41:09):
Also critiquing the way that elevating certain black people to
high places, right is used as a buffer to keep
the majority of black people segregated and impoverished. And in Chicago,
he'll call it plantation politics. So I think one of
the things that King is challenging is kind of the

(01:41:32):
both the systemicness of it, but also the like the
different tactics that are used, particularly in sort of big cities,
like you're saying, La, New York, Chicago, Boston.

Speaker 4 (01:41:45):
Right, So there are there is.

Speaker 27 (01:41:49):
There are these little what we might call crevices. There
are black congressmen like Adam Clayton Powell. There are black
aldermen like a number of aldermen that will support Richard
Daley throughout that whole Chicago struggle and be really a
buffer against and a barrier to any change in Chicago.

(01:42:11):
So part of what King is also kind of pushing
within kind of the black community is to kind of
see and start to.

Speaker 4 (01:42:25):
Sort of see the ways that.

Speaker 27 (01:42:30):
This kind of systemic racism, like you're like you're saying,
is being perpetuated in somewhat different ways. Right, So the
blackfaces in high places, there's all this obsession with the
problem of black crime or the problem of black people.

Speaker 4 (01:42:49):
Right.

Speaker 27 (01:42:49):
Black people just need to clean up their neighborhoods. And
King is very adamant right that, No, the problem is
there's differential sanitation services between the West Side ghetto of
Chicago and you know, the northern suburbs, right, And so
he's telling a very different history, not just of the South,

(01:43:13):
but about the United States in the twentieth century. Right,
he's talking about FHA and you know, loans that enable
right these white neighborhoods and white suburbs and are often
denied right in black neighborhoods and to black people. He's
telling a different narrative about right accessing even things like

(01:43:34):
the gi built. He's telling a different narrative about the
differentials in city services, in access to higher education. So
he is very clear, right that there's all this obsession
with you know, merit and bootstraps and black crime, and
he's saying, actually, the problem is white crime, is white
illegality in the ghettos. And he's also saying we need

(01:43:56):
to tell a different history of the United States.

Speaker 3 (01:44:01):
As as you were talking on that on that particular front,
when we talk about delivery of services, we talk about resources,
it's also the illusion, the illusion that things are better,
the illusion that that things were so much grander. You

(01:44:25):
had blacks who fled the South, who are being threatened
with death, who literally left land that they owned, that
the families owned, because they were being threatened with death
by the KKK and racist whites then travel who then
travel up north, and now you're living in packed neighborhoods
where you can't buy homes, where you can't even in

(01:44:47):
some cases you could even resell. You have black folks
who owned homes, and then if you wanted to sell
the home, you had to get the permission of the
person who you bought it from, which is just still crazy.
And so then then then depress values. Therefore you can't
build black wealth.

Speaker 7 (01:45:03):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:45:04):
And so, but the illusion was that, hey, but but
things are better. And so there's this conflict that is
constantly going on. A few years ago, I was invited
to give a speech at a church. It was Episcopalian
or maybe in the PRESBYTERI that can't remember. It was

(01:45:24):
a fiftieth anniversary of doctor King giving a speech calling
for in essence, health care for all.

Speaker 7 (01:45:32):
That speech was in Chicago. It wasn't all right.

Speaker 27 (01:45:38):
I mean, he's taking on I mean one of the
things that he's also zeroing in on, right, is that
these conditions over these overcrowded conditions that you're like, you're saying,
are not just happening by accident.

Speaker 4 (01:45:51):
They are happening by policy.

Speaker 27 (01:45:53):
They are happening happening by municipal decision, and they could
happen differently. So one of the things they're doing in
this Chicago campaign, they're organizing rent strikes, They're organizing tenant organizations.
They are basically calling out the fact that chicag go
at this press incredibly kind of some of the most

(01:46:13):
developed kind of building codes in the country, and yet
they're not enforced, and they're particularly not enforced in the
two black ghettos, right, which are the Chicago's South Side
and then Chicago's West Side. And so King is saying
this is there is profit being made from this against

(01:46:35):
segregation and ghettoization. He's also saying these services are distinctly different.

Speaker 4 (01:46:41):
They are choosing to make these services different.

Speaker 7 (01:46:44):
Right.

Speaker 27 (01:46:44):
Schools schools in black neighborhoods, for instance, are so overcrowded
that in many cities you see school officials because they
don't want to rezone black students into white schools, moving
black schools to double set days.

Speaker 29 (01:47:18):
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Speaker 1 (01:47:49):
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Speaker 7 (01:48:07):
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Speaker 3 (01:48:07):
I keep going back to the media piece is because
it goes back to the story you saw the young
man who was killed. Mass media controls a narrative, mass
media frames the story.

Speaker 7 (01:48:21):
So as long as this race.

Speaker 3 (01:48:25):
Theme is a regional theme, then we don't have to
really focus on that.

Speaker 7 (01:48:32):
And so but then what then happens is, uh.

Speaker 3 (01:48:36):
As you were talking, I just kept coming back to
not my backyard. Oh no, no, no, no, no, doctor King,
that's that's them down there. Now, don't don't don't bring
don't bring that stuff up here. So they love him. Oh,
it's great, Oh, we appreciate what you're doing.

Speaker 7 (01:48:52):
What he was.

Speaker 3 (01:48:53):
Essentially doing to white liberals, to so called white allies,
was holding up a mirror and said this has actually happened.

Speaker 7 (01:49:03):
In here, and they were they essentially said, get the
hell out of my face with that.

Speaker 3 (01:49:08):
Absolutely, Absolutely, he was being confronted with.

Speaker 27 (01:49:12):
Over and over and over, right with Mayor Wagner in
New York, with Mayor Yorty in LA, with Mayor Daily
in Chicago. Right, all of these people, as long as
I was safe in the South, that's King's phrase, right,
they might want to take pictures with him, they would say.

Speaker 4 (01:49:29):
Nice things with him, and then the very first.

Speaker 27 (01:49:32):
Moment he would say something like in nineteen sixty three
he calls Chicago as segregated as Birmingham. And guess what,
Daily calls him an outside agitator. The Chicago Tribune calls
him an outside agitator. Right, this sense of you don't
have any business talking about my city, similarly with LA,

(01:49:53):
similarly with New York.

Speaker 4 (01:49:55):
The other thing about that.

Speaker 27 (01:49:57):
Media, right, is that when we get to then the uprisings,
then there is this convenient amnesia, like you're saying, because
if you're not covering all of these movements that have
been saying for years, hey there's a real problem with
police brutality. Hey there's a real problem with job discrimination.
Hey there's a real problem with the lack of code enforcement.

(01:50:21):
Then part of what you see in that national media
is this shock and surprise?

Speaker 4 (01:50:27):
Why are people so angry? Why is this happening?

Speaker 27 (01:50:31):
As opposed to having to reckon with the fact that
for years people had protested and picketed and gone to
meetings and organized petitions and gotten arrested to say, hey,
there's these problems and you ignored it, right, because we
could imagine how the media could have, for instance, treated

(01:50:53):
the Watts Uprising very differently, which is then to have
gone back to.

Speaker 4 (01:51:00):
Governor Brown, to.

Speaker 27 (01:51:02):
Mayoriority, to you know, various public officials in LA and said,
why didn't you do anything when people raise that issue
in nineteen sixty two, raise that issue in nineteen sixty three.

Speaker 4 (01:51:13):
How did you let it get to this? But no,
that's not what the media did. The media was sort of.

Speaker 27 (01:51:19):
Obsessed with this kind of shock. They were obsessed with
kind of protecting the police. The police are doing a
good job. The LA Times will say, these, you know,
these complaints of police brutality, you know, are largely not
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:51:36):
They questioned them.

Speaker 27 (01:51:38):
And so that media frame both then has had I think,
very devastating consequences for how we understand that history, because
in erasing those movements, most of us didn't learn those
movements in school. Most of most books, right, most books
on the civil rights movement. You know, our public celebration

(01:52:01):
of King Day, right, it tends to be southern. And
so the notion that there were these huge movements all
across the country and that the United States, because I think,
I want to say one more thing, right, because there
is a kind of convenience to the Southern narrative, which
is that it is regional, like we're talking about, but
it also is a story that is told as a

(01:52:22):
story of struggle and triumph, right, that we recognized an
injustice and we fixed it. If we look outside the South,
that story gets a lot more complicated and a lot
less happy, Right. And to grapple with the fact that
in this country, right oftentimes, even when you shine a
light on injustice.

Speaker 4 (01:52:42):
Injustice is not fixed.

Speaker 27 (01:52:43):
And I think that is something that people in the
United States really don't want to face all that often.

Speaker 3 (01:52:52):
I have to stay on media because it was media
that opened your eyes to this black own media. And
why do I say that. I have said for last
twenty years that my greatest fear is that the death,

(01:53:14):
the death of black owned media. It's going to be
the death of black people. And what I mean by that,
I'm being very specific when I say black owned media,
not black targeted media. Black targeted media means black people
don't own those properties that we are being targeted for
financial gain. So radio networks, digital websites, other products, television networks.

(01:53:41):
The reality is that you take a bet they're no
longer black owned. You've got a new show that airs
one day a month, that's it, one hour, nothing virtually
on digital. And so what are you being fed. You're
being fed reality shows. You're being fed comedies, dramas, sis
award shows. Uh, and that's what you're constantly being fed.

(01:54:04):
The reality is it was black owned newspapers that was
covering doctor King in all of these cities. And so
the issue I never forget watching it was Meet the
Press and uh, Doris Kurrns Goodwin was on, and they

(01:54:25):
were they begin to talk about Emmett Till and she
references the New York Times putting the image of Immit
Till on the cover. And I was watching it, and
I immediately with the Twitter, I said, oh, hell no,
you are not going to do this. How dare you
call yourself a historian Doris Currents Goodwin and not mentioned

(01:54:48):
that it was jet Magicie.

Speaker 7 (01:54:52):
Defender and that image.

Speaker 3 (01:54:54):
On that captured the attention of Black America, which then
called was white media to then begin to focus on it.
And so the story you're talking about, the reason I
dare say a lot of folks.

Speaker 7 (01:55:09):
Don't know about this absolutely because.

Speaker 3 (01:55:12):
They were not paying attention to the Chicago Defender, the
Amsterdam News, the black newspapers on the West Coast, and
the Banner in Boston.

Speaker 7 (01:55:24):
They weren't paying attention and that was it.

Speaker 3 (01:55:27):
And so black owned media was there well highlighting these
stories over and over and over again, and it was
white media not paying attention.

Speaker 7 (01:55:39):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (01:55:39):
Absolutely.

Speaker 27 (01:55:40):
And in fact, I think part of this myopia about
because I mean, we have a pile of books on
Doctor King and one of the things that I really
grappled with was how is it that this kind of
southernization of King has been maintained? And for me, part
of telling this story is absolutely that it For me,

(01:56:04):
it was about studying the movement in LA and studying
the black media for not a project around Doctor King initially, right,
but just looking at the black freedom struggle in LA
before Watts looking at the La Sentinel in the California Egle,
which were the two big blast newspapers at the time,
and I kept finding doctor King, and that's not the

(01:56:26):
story we get.

Speaker 4 (01:56:26):
The story we get is.

Speaker 27 (01:56:28):
That King kind of you know, is in the South, and.

Speaker 4 (01:56:32):
Then their struggle and there's hardship.

Speaker 27 (01:56:35):
And then we get the Civil Rights Act, and then
we get the Voting Rights Act, and then the next
week Watts erupts and King is surprised and shocked by
Northern racism, and then he decides he goes to Watts
and then he decides to go to Chicago. That's basically
the story that is, you know, replicated in so many books,
so many documentaries.

Speaker 4 (01:56:55):
Yeah, like you're saying, Roland, if you look at the
Black Press, that story does not hold.

Speaker 3 (01:57:01):
Yeah, I think when you look at I think it's
because I have the book and I've interviewed him.

Speaker 7 (01:57:06):
I think it's Nicholas. I'm looking up right.

Speaker 3 (01:57:08):
Now, Nicholas Cots his book on what you just described.
And I have the book and it's called Judgment Days
Lyndon Baines Johnson, Martin Luther King and the Laws That
Changed America. Fascinating book.

Speaker 7 (01:57:29):
But what you just.

Speaker 3 (01:57:30):
Described is exactly what he writes. He writes that when
the riots in Watts breaks out, King travels to Watts,
sees this, hears about the housing and the racism, and
he writes that MLK falls into a state of depression.

Speaker 7 (01:57:55):
And he writes, he writes that.

Speaker 3 (01:57:58):
LBJ, this is days after signing the Civil Rights Bill
voting rights, that falls into a state of depression. That
these two individuals are so LBJ is shocked, mad and
pissed off that black folks were not just you know,

(01:58:18):
celebrating the signing of this law. And then MKA is
depressed by what he sees. That literally is what Cox
nice man, and I really enjoyed the book, writes in
his book.

Speaker 4 (01:58:32):
And it's just I mean it is. I want to
tell you a couple of things. Number one, Yes, is
doctor King depressed? Yes, But do you know what that
depression is about.

Speaker 27 (01:58:41):
I think, just like you're saying, if you think about
people who were involved in the movement for Black lives
right in Ferguson in many years, then we get George Floyd,
that sense of trying and lifting up these issues and
lifting up these issues, and here it has happened again, right,

(01:59:01):
So I think part of if you don't start in
the black press, if you don't start talking and listening
to people you know who are being you know, interviewed
in the black press, who are movement activists for instance
in La right, seeing King in those spaces and then

(01:59:22):
seeing the ways the wilful kind of rejection of King
will call Prop fourteen, for instance, a vote for ghettos.
He will call it one of the most shameful tragedies
of the twentieth century. He will say its passage is
part of what lays the groundwork for the Watts Uprising
nine months later. But right, that all gets erased in

(01:59:47):
that doctor King is depressed and Johnson is so surprised.
The second thing that gets erased is what is actually
what doctor King called on Johnson to do. Right, They
have a call after Watts and Johnson's wanting all this
credit for like the War on poverty and thinks the

(02:00:07):
War on Poverty programs are going to solve everything. And
doctor King cuts in and says, no, we have to
deal with this. The kind of racial policies of people
like Yordy and Parker.

Speaker 4 (02:00:19):
That's the police chief, right, So police.

Speaker 27 (02:00:21):
Brutality, school segregation, housing salregation. The war on poverty is
not enough if you don't deal with the kind of
racial inequality in the city. And Johnson doesn't want to
hear that.

Speaker 4 (02:00:48):
We begin tonight with the people who are really running.

Speaker 7 (02:00:51):
The country right now.

Speaker 14 (02:00:51):
Trump is often wrong and misleading about a lot of things,
but especially about history.

Speaker 4 (02:00:55):
Wal Trump falling in line with President Elod Musk.

Speaker 3 (02:00:58):
In the way of the unsanately news that MSNBC has
canceled Joy and Reads primetime show, the readout Roland Martin
and the Blackstar Network would like to extend an invitation
to all of the fans of Joy and Read MSNBC
show to join us every night to watch Roland Martin
Unfiltered streaming on the Blackstar Network for news discussion of

(02:01:20):
the issue that matter to you and the latest updates
on the twice impeached, criminally convicted filam in chief Donald
Trumps unprecedented assault on democracy, as well as co President
Elon musk.

Speaker 7 (02:01:32):
Takeover of the federal government.

Speaker 3 (02:01:33):
The Blackstar Network stands with Joy and Read and all
folks who understand the power of black voices in media.
We must come together and never forget that information is power.
Be sure to watch Roland Martin Unfiltered weeknights, six pm
Eastern at YouTube dot com, Forward Slash Roland s Martin,
or download the Blackstar Network.

Speaker 27 (02:01:55):
Pat.

Speaker 3 (02:02:09):
What was interesting is, as you were describing King talking
about these issues, I reflect back on reading and listing
to speeches from Malcolm X, and so there are different
stages of Malcolm X. Malcolm X was an individual who

(02:02:29):
was constantly evolving, and the reality is when he's assassinated
in nineteen sixty five, is that that was a Malcolm
X who was moving to another evolution of who he
was and in the organization of as American Unity actually
wrote and he was meeting with that he was going
to join forces with pastors and civil rights leaders to fight.

Speaker 27 (02:02:51):
Out absolutely and you know, he'd been down in Selma
a few weeks before he's assassinated and meets with Kreta
and they have this really lovely meeting and she talks
about the like much wanted right coming together of Malcolm
and you know, and Martin right, and she's devastated. Both
Kings are devastated when Malcolm is assassinated. I also think

(02:03:14):
we have drawn even a kind of too sharp of
a difference between them when you start to look at
what doctor King is supporting in the you know, in
places like LA.

Speaker 4 (02:03:23):
Right, goes to LA and talking.

Speaker 27 (02:03:26):
About the police murder of Ron Stokes in nineteen sixty two.

Speaker 4 (02:03:29):
Right, that's what Malcolm is doing.

Speaker 7 (02:03:31):
There.

Speaker 27 (02:03:32):
Goes to New York talking about and joining with, you know,
around the New York City school boycott, as is Malcolm
around the protests like against kind of racist construction unions.
Doctor King will be working we'll call his favorite union,
New York eleven ninety nine. That's the only union that
Malcolm X speaks in front of. So I also think

(02:03:54):
sometimes we miss in many ways the overlaps of the
kinds of movements that both of them are supporting, particularly
as we get into the you know, sixty two, sixty three,
sixty four, and then the cutting short of Malcolm's life.

Speaker 3 (02:04:06):
See the thing that the reason what I what I
found to be very interesting is that when Malcolm X
was going after highly criticizing these black preachers, and he
was attacking them in speeches and on television.

Speaker 30 (02:04:23):
He was literally talking about slum lords in Harlem. Absolutely,
he was literally talking about racism in the North Abboute.

Speaker 7 (02:04:34):
A lot of people want to also ignore one of
the major reasons people a lot of people try to focus.

Speaker 3 (02:04:40):
On infidelity of Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X's criticism of that. No,
but a huge part of Malcolm X's disillusionment with the
Nation of Islam was that when the Nation of when
Nation of Islam had members who were beaten and killed

(02:05:02):
by cops, they were always told to stand down by
Logie Muhammad.

Speaker 7 (02:05:07):
So Malcolm X is frust So Malcolm X is.

Speaker 3 (02:05:10):
Frustrated that we're saying one thing, we're the cheap We're
gonna respond, and he's like, we never respond. So these courses,
to your point, were literally talking about the exact same thing.

Speaker 7 (02:05:25):
The difference.

Speaker 3 (02:05:26):
The difference was Malcolm X did not like that approach
of King and others that he felt was assimilation, being cowards,
just trying to trying to acquiesce and appease the white man.
But again, after Malcolm X goes to Mecca, he literally

(02:05:47):
comes back and realizes that one a a white folks,
y'all black folks lab with us, do what we do,
but I'm actually in the I'm actually in the same.

Speaker 7 (02:05:58):
Boat with them because with trying to fight the.

Speaker 3 (02:06:00):
Exact same thing he was dealing with racism, systemic racism
in the North. While he was sitting here ripping King
in the South. He was kind of like, we're in
the same boat.

Speaker 27 (02:06:13):
Well, absolutely, And I think Malcolm is more complicated than
we often see him. Right, we can think about message
to the grassroots, his critique of the March on Washington,
But where is Malcolm during the March on Washington. He's
in Washington, d C. And he's made it known if
people need him, he is there.

Speaker 7 (02:06:30):
Yeah, probably with ruber Dey and Ousti Davis.

Speaker 4 (02:06:32):
Absolutely right, he is.

Speaker 27 (02:06:35):
I mean, like, if we think about what are King
and Malcolm doing in l A, right, they're both talking,
you know, like you're saying, I totally agree, Right. I
think there's been all this attention to you know, Malcolm growing,
you know growing, you know, disillusionment with Elijah Muhammad around
the infidelity. But I think this split really sort of
begins much more, or not begins, but gets much more

(02:06:58):
like Palpable in nineteen sixty two when he's gone to
la because Ron Stokes has been killed, a number of
other unarmed members of the nation have been injured, and
people are building a movement and Malcolm is kind of
coming together with that movement.

Speaker 4 (02:07:16):
And then Elijah mom and makes him leave.

Speaker 27 (02:07:20):
And that happened, you know, and he keeps, you know,
this kind of wanting to walk the walk and not
just like talk about it, but like you're saying, be
able to be organizing, be doing kind of pushing for
the kinds of change and being held back.

Speaker 4 (02:07:37):
So I think there's no way to understand the split.

Speaker 27 (02:07:41):
As a kind of Malcolm's growing disillusionment with not being
able to make that political rhetoric into actual movement on
the ground.

Speaker 3 (02:07:55):
One of the things that I found it'd be interesting
as you lay out about King's travel to the point
he wasn't traveling just to the south.

Speaker 7 (02:08:06):
Timpe Arizona where we're in your research.

Speaker 3 (02:08:12):
Obviously we think about large cities, we think about Chicago,
Los Angeles, New York City, Boston, But where were some
of the out of way places he was also calling
out northern racism.

Speaker 27 (02:08:25):
I mean, and I think, and I think before we
we if we've we know that doctor King traveled a lot,
but I think we've really reduced that to oh, it's
about fundraising.

Speaker 7 (02:08:35):
Right, only we're getting an award.

Speaker 4 (02:08:37):
Or he was just hoards right, because he was just
talking right. He's just talking right.

Speaker 27 (02:08:43):
And I think one of the things that I and
again really seeing this through the eyes of the Black press,
that he is showing up for so many people's struggles.

Speaker 31 (02:08:51):
Right.

Speaker 4 (02:08:51):
So people are.

Speaker 27 (02:08:52):
Saying, we're organizing, So how does he get involved with
eleven ninety nine in.

Speaker 4 (02:08:57):
New York and they they're they're going to nine ah,
thank you.

Speaker 27 (02:09:03):
Eleven ninety nine is the Hospital and Healthcare Workers Union
in and in nineteen fifty nine, they are trying to
organize the lowest baid hospital workers, which are black and
Puerto Rican women working kind of a split shift. They're
kind of like orderlies. They come in the morning and
then they come in they have to come in again
at night.

Speaker 4 (02:09:24):
They're working in. Their wages are so low.

Speaker 27 (02:09:26):
Doctor King says that they can't even call them wages,
and so they're organizing a strike and they meet with
doctor King and doctor King.

Speaker 4 (02:09:35):
Says, count me in, call on me.

Speaker 27 (02:09:38):
And this is one of the things that I think
we also have not understood about his leadership, which is
this that part of what is like in this travel
is Doctor King showing up and being you know, I mean,
as we talk about today, showing up for sort of people's.

Speaker 4 (02:09:59):
Works up for people's struggles.

Speaker 7 (02:10:01):
Right.

Speaker 27 (02:10:01):
That that's a key facet of his leadership as he
sees it. And so he just travels the amount of travel,
the amount of exhaustion, right, to be able to do
that and to really prioritize that, I think we've really
missed that. I think the other thing we miss is
how often, again, like you're saying, we assume he's just

(02:10:22):
he's getting awards, and then when you actually listen to
what he's saying, he's constantly right reminding his audience that
there is a problem here too.

Speaker 4 (02:10:34):
Right, You've invited me even in some of these.

Speaker 27 (02:10:37):
Where he's been invited just to talk about the movement
in Birmingham or the movement and in Selma or you know,
he's not stopping there, right, He's also talking about what's
happening right there wherever he is, whether it's Tempe, whether
it's in Iowa, whether it's in Cincinnati, whether it's in.

Speaker 4 (02:11:01):
You know, Washington, d C. Right, he's out for Washington
d C. Statehood. There are so many issues that he
is joining.

Speaker 27 (02:11:11):
And helping to kind of support local struggles. And I
think we've missed this.

Speaker 4 (02:11:18):
This aspect of his leadership.

Speaker 27 (02:11:20):
I think we're so used to seeing sort of him,
you know, kind of at a distance, right, that this
way that he shows up and that he also is
learning and constantly learning and then constantly kind of expanding
sort of how he sees the kind of segregation and
white supremacy. We want to remember that most of this

(02:11:42):
travel again before nineteen sixty four.

Speaker 4 (02:11:45):
We're talking about the Jim Crow North.

Speaker 27 (02:11:47):
So most hotels in the North don't, you know, don't
serve black people, many restaurants, right, So part of this
is also doctor King staying with lots of people and
so therefore also being educated about all of.

Speaker 4 (02:12:01):
These different issues across the country.

Speaker 7 (02:12:03):
Right.

Speaker 4 (02:12:04):
So he goes to Detroit in fifty eight and they're taking.

Speaker 27 (02:12:07):
Him around and showing him the kind of early ravages
of urban renewal.

Speaker 4 (02:12:11):
Right, So all of these issues.

Speaker 27 (02:12:13):
In part come out and become part of the ways
that he's seeing kind of what has to change in
the United States.

Speaker 3 (02:12:21):
A couple of things really really jump out at me,
and that is as I'm sitting here, as I looked
at it, and so I interviewed Lowie's Lowie Stokes, and
of course her father was Lewis Stokes and you know,

(02:12:48):
longtime member of Congress, and we talked about when her uncle,
uncle Carl Stokes, was elected mayor of Cleveland. She he
told me the stir of doctor King happened to be
in the hotel room when the news came in that
he won, and he wanted doctor King to come downstairs

(02:13:13):
with him.

Speaker 4 (02:13:15):
That's not.

Speaker 11 (02:13:17):
No, no no, But doctor King said no, you know,
it's like no going down.

Speaker 7 (02:13:23):
But before that night, Stokes didn't want.

Speaker 3 (02:13:28):
I'm okay, even in the city organized mobilized black people.
That is a fascinating story because it shows you the
fear of a black politician of upsetting white people.

Speaker 4 (02:13:42):
Absolutely.

Speaker 27 (02:13:43):
And the story that I think is often told about
how Carl Stokes wins is that he in the story
I initially learned was that he gets the white vote.

Speaker 4 (02:13:52):
But when you actually look at.

Speaker 27 (02:13:53):
What happens and what brings Carl Stokes to victory, particularly
in that primary, is the fact that there's this man
massive black turnout right that many black organizations in the
city and including s CLC and King spends a lot
of time in Cleveland doing that kind of voter turnout,
doing that kind of voter registration and that it is

(02:14:16):
black turnout that changes the game for Carl Stokes in
that primary. You know, two years before he'd lost to
you know who becomes mayor Loker. And then and then
he wins that primary, and it is black turnout that's changes.

Speaker 7 (02:14:35):
Let's live, let's go. Bet.

Speaker 3 (02:14:37):
Stokes doesn't want King, company, doesn't want King, doesn't want
him doing anything. Nope, and he merely loses. King rebuffs him, says,
I'm s Field Coleman. But this is where, which is
why so important today Black people in Cleveland said, he's

(02:15:00):
he can't win, so therefore.

Speaker 7 (02:15:01):
I'm not going to vote.

Speaker 3 (02:15:02):
I talk about The New York Times did a story
or a group of black They talked to a group
of black voters after Trump, after Trump was inaugurated, and
there was a woman, a thirty nine year old black
woman named Milwaukee who said a teacher's aide who says
she did not vote because she thought Trump was going
to win. Well, you not voting guaranteed he was gonna win.

(02:15:25):
So if one hundred two hundred thousand others thought like you,
that's how Trump won.

Speaker 7 (02:15:30):
Well that was the case.

Speaker 3 (02:15:31):
Stokes doesn't win because black people said, hey, he ain't
got a shot, but Mkay understands black power and it's
spending lots of time talking to people walking the streets, mobilizing, organizing.
That's how Stokes wins.

Speaker 30 (02:15:48):
So here you have so Carl Stokes, you ain't you
were scared.

Speaker 7 (02:15:52):
To have King stand with you and.

Speaker 3 (02:15:55):
Your moves and beading with the King stands with you
and puts in a work he wins.

Speaker 27 (02:16:02):
Right, And that idea of black power, that organized black
political power, we see it in Cleveland.

Speaker 4 (02:16:10):
But yeah, Carl Stokes being afraid.

Speaker 27 (02:16:11):
And the story I heard is that that Stokes does
not want him even that in.

Speaker 4 (02:16:16):
Victory Night anywhere near him.

Speaker 27 (02:16:18):
That what King and Abernathy say is that Stokes said
he was going to call, and he does not call.

Speaker 4 (02:16:24):
But but that.

Speaker 27 (02:16:26):
That black turnout, that black organization by sort of black
organizations in Cleveland and SCLC changes the game.

Speaker 3 (02:16:36):
Well, here's what he mentioned, black power, because that's also
a part of the deal that King never published.

Speaker 7 (02:16:42):
King would not publicly rip.

Speaker 3 (02:16:44):
Stokely Carmichael, No, but even in his book where do
We Go from Here? In Koso community, King said black
power nothing but a slogan that was no agenda behind it,
and so in this case he viewed black power differently,
and so where they were they different He simply felt
that Stokely just saying black power didn't achieve anything that

(02:17:05):
need to be a genda behind it.

Speaker 7 (02:17:07):
So him understanding that.

Speaker 3 (02:17:09):
If we mobilize organized to get a Carl Stows elected,
that is actual black.

Speaker 27 (02:17:14):
Power, absolutely, And he meets with one of the interesting things.
Three weeks before he's assassinated. He goes by Amiria.

Speaker 31 (02:17:23):
I mean a Baraka's apartment and visits Baraka and sort
of some of the initial kind of organizing an idea
with what will become.

Speaker 4 (02:17:33):
Right the convention movement that.

Speaker 27 (02:17:34):
Baraka will work on and then ultimately the National Black
Political Convention.

Speaker 4 (02:17:40):
And Gary begins in those.

Speaker 27 (02:17:43):
Conversations that day, right about what does it mean to
coalesce national Black political power? Right, and King will joke
with Stokely, right, let's get the power we don't like,
not the slogan, And then King is like, but we
got the slogan and not the power. So this idea
that also again if we see part of what doctor

(02:18:03):
King is doing is constantly kind of doubling down and
kind of kind of going deeper, and part of that
is about seeing that it's not just about an individual vote, right,
It's about what collectively that vote can do. Because again
in some you know, in many places in the North,
black people could vote, but that did not mean they

(02:18:23):
could protect their interests, right, And that therefore, what sort
of real voting rights, what real voting power looked like,
was building kind of organized black political power. And then
I mean also around economic power.

Speaker 32 (02:18:38):
But that's you know, we could talk about that too.

Speaker 13 (02:18:58):
Hatred on the streets, a whole fixed scene, white nationalists
rally that descended into deadly violence.

Speaker 7 (02:19:06):
Well, white people are living.

Speaker 23 (02:19:10):
As an AGray pro Trump mock storms the US capital
or some chap.

Speaker 3 (02:19:15):
We're about to see the rise where I call white
minority resistance.

Speaker 7 (02:19:18):
We have seen white folks in this.

Speaker 3 (02:19:20):
Country who simply cannot tolerate black folks voting.

Speaker 13 (02:19:24):
I think what we're seeing is the inevitable result of
violent denial.

Speaker 1 (02:19:29):
This is part of American history.

Speaker 17 (02:19:31):
Every time than people of color and in progress, whether
real or symbolic, there has been but Carold Anderson at
every university calls white rage as a backlash.

Speaker 3 (02:19:41):
This is the wrath of the proud Boys and the
Boogaloo boys America.

Speaker 7 (02:19:44):
There's going to be more of this proud boy.

Speaker 27 (02:19:47):
This country is getting increasingly racist in its behaviors and
its attitudes because of the fear of white people.

Speaker 3 (02:19:56):
The food that they're taking, our job, they're taking out,
were resources they're taking.

Speaker 7 (02:20:00):
Now women, this is white fear.

Speaker 3 (02:20:29):
When when my book White Fear came out, my book
White Fear, How the Browning of America Is making White
Folks Lose their Minds came out. I sent this book
to a number of black journalists across the country who
have school on network television, networking, cable television, to send

(02:20:52):
to some white journalists as well, and a black journalists
I'm not going to say who hits me up and says.

Speaker 7 (02:21:01):
That that when the book was taken to this.

Speaker 3 (02:21:13):
Host producers, the white producers did not like the title
of my book.

Speaker 7 (02:21:21):
The title is White Fear, How.

Speaker 3 (02:21:22):
The Browning of America is making White folks lose their minds.
The white so then the black host says, and I'm saying, well,
you know that the thesis of my book is literally
what has been written in the New York Times, in
Time and Newsweek, in pr xeos, and I literally sit
the articles the black host says.

Speaker 7 (02:21:44):
To me, well, you know you printing to the choir.

Speaker 3 (02:21:46):
I said, no, I need you to be the pastor,
I said, I said, are you aware that I literally
write about those same white journalists in the book. And
the reason we don't have these conversations it's because they
won't have them on the air. And so when I
was reading this man, I said wow, and I was

(02:22:10):
shocked with the person who did this?

Speaker 7 (02:22:13):
You write nineteen sixty seven.

Speaker 3 (02:22:15):
Journalist David Haberstam spent ten days with King for a
lengthy nineteen sixty seven Harper's feature Traveling with King to Cleveland,
and you go on and write these you talk about.
Haberstam wrote books, and John Lewis described him as quote
the only one covering us. You say, but here Haberstam's
framing was different, with no mention of long standing movements

(02:22:37):
in these northern cities. Haberstam called King quote arrogant and
in danger of losing his way. Haberstam longed for the
quote heady days unquote when King was quote was our
beloved unquote, and northern ghettos. Haberstam claimed, the schools are terrible,
but there's no one man making them bad by his

(02:22:58):
own ill will. Jobs are bad, but the reasons negroes
aren't ready for decent jobs are complicated unquote. Then you
say this here, which really jumps out at me. You said,
for Harberstam, northern injustice might be bad, but its causes weremorphous,
and Northern blacks weren't necessarily quote ready unquote for decent

(02:23:22):
jobs anyway. Now, this is somebody, and I have a
number of his books, who has been hailed as this
paragon of virtue, this amazing journalist, this unbelievable empathetic writer,
who who who frankly made his made his bones, he

(02:23:46):
made his h has built on covering the black freedom
movement some call the.

Speaker 7 (02:23:56):
Civil rights movement.

Speaker 3 (02:23:57):
And so here again, so here's a white journalist, a
white male journalist who.

Speaker 7 (02:24:04):
They believe really understood us.

Speaker 3 (02:24:08):
And when I see this that Northern blacks weren't necessarily
ready for decent jobs anyway, I thought about John Wayne,
who was a white supremacist who literally said that blacks
weren't even ready for integration. When I see that, so this,
this is a fundamental problem here where this is a
this is a white male journalist who is beloved who

(02:24:32):
frames King in a way and he is shaping the
national narrative.

Speaker 7 (02:24:37):
So when you read his article of.

Speaker 3 (02:24:40):
Halberstam says that, well it must be true.

Speaker 27 (02:24:45):
And over and over we see that word arrogant being
used against doctor King a lot in these years, and
particularly when he starts again to turn his like when
he's talking about right a Cleveland or in New York
or in la Right now, he's a again, right, he's
out of his place. And then that second point right,
which is that again One of the other ways that

(02:25:07):
Northerners tended to excuse the the inequalities in their cities
was this idea that there was you know, culture, and
that people weren't ready, or that people didn't have the
right work ethic, or people didn't have the right educational values,
and over and over that would become part of the

(02:25:29):
ways then they would cover sort of black life in
their cities as a dysfunctional, as a problem as to
sort of maintain that idea, right that it wasn't that
it was the schools were segregated, it was that black
people didn't value education, or there was this dysfunctional culture.

Speaker 4 (02:25:48):
It wasn't that we had different we needed.

Speaker 27 (02:25:50):
We had differential segregation in parts of the city. It
was that black people didn't clean up their neighborhoods, right.
And so here we see somebody like David Halberstam like you,
like you're saying, who makes his career right covering Nashville,
covering the civil rights movement.

Speaker 4 (02:26:06):
But when we get closer to.

Speaker 27 (02:26:08):
Home, that coverage is very different, and like you're saying,
it then shapes how we understand the North, how we
understand King's work in the North, and how we understand
like black life in cities like Cleveland or New York.

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Speaker 7 (02:28:14):
Two more questions. The first question I'll ask is, and
I ask every author this here.

Speaker 3 (02:28:22):
In your writing, in your research, in your interviews, what
was the wild.

Speaker 7 (02:28:28):
Moment for you? What was the moment that caused you
to go.

Speaker 3 (02:28:32):
Oh my god, this is crazy, I can't believe this,
or I never even know this.

Speaker 27 (02:28:42):
And I think the wild moment is like sort of
starting in that research in l A and being.

Speaker 4 (02:28:49):
Like, wait a sec.

Speaker 27 (02:28:52):
All these books make it seem like King's just discovers
the problem with black people in LA.

Speaker 7 (02:28:57):
Because the book is not what you were researching.

Speaker 4 (02:29:01):
Nope, go ahead. So that then and then once you
ask the question, it's sort of like you know.

Speaker 27 (02:29:07):
Those you know, the kaleidoscopes we had as kids, right
where you turn the and then all of a sudden,
the whole picture changes.

Speaker 4 (02:29:15):
And so in some ways, when I.

Speaker 27 (02:29:17):
Started asking that question, when I started saying, Okay, maybe
this story we've been told about King discovering the North
Post nineteen sixty five, about northern black people.

Speaker 4 (02:29:27):
Not you know, not having an interest in King.

Speaker 27 (02:29:31):
Maybe that story is not what we have been told,
and then just finding it everywhere. So both he is everywhere,
joining with movements all around this country, not discovering northern
racism because in fact, he had gone to school in
the North. And so King at age twenty right, has

(02:29:53):
experienced housing discrimination and housing segregation because he's lived it.
King has experienced the limits of northern liberalism because he's
lived it. So again, the whole kind of way that
the story that still persists had so many holes in it.

Speaker 4 (02:30:13):
I think that was the most surprising thing.

Speaker 27 (02:30:15):
It wasn't one revelation, It was just how much there
was to find and how much things that we thought
we knew right.

Speaker 4 (02:30:21):
I knew he'd gone to be you.

Speaker 27 (02:30:22):
I knew he'd gone to Krozer. But the way we
tend to talk about that is who's he studying with?
What's he studying? Not where is he and how is
that experience going to affect how he thinks about this
country in the world.

Speaker 3 (02:30:35):
Second to last question, I thought I had two, but
one just jumped up. I think it's really important because
oftentimes it is grossly overlooked. How critical was his wife,
Krita Scott King to this as well. We only view
him as one dimensional. She is portrayed as the woman

(02:30:56):
who went on the road. She's saying she raised money
and then she went back home to take care of
the kids and to tend to the house.

Speaker 7 (02:31:05):
That's not the fact.

Speaker 3 (02:31:06):
The reality is a lot of his thinking derived from
her arriving at that place before he did.

Speaker 27 (02:31:14):
Absolutely, I mean, I think we need to understand sort
of how fierce and how I mean in many ways
when they meet, she's more.

Speaker 4 (02:31:20):
Of a political activist than he is.

Speaker 27 (02:31:24):
Correta Scott goes to Antioch College in Ohio. It is
both at expanding experience but she also, like King, encounters
kind of northern racism, the limits of northern liberalism.

Speaker 4 (02:31:37):
At Antioch. She's introduced to the Progressive Party.

Speaker 27 (02:31:40):
They're running a third party challenge in nineteen forty eight
against Truman and the Democrats on issues domestically of segregation,
on issues in terms of foreign policy, a kind of
anti Cold War militarism.

Speaker 4 (02:31:53):
So in some ways that.

Speaker 27 (02:31:55):
Many of us associate kind of the triple evils right
of racism, poverty, and military right with those last years
of his life. Those ideas and now I'm not saying
they don't deepen and ripe in, but those ideas are
already there when he meets her.

Speaker 4 (02:32:11):
In nineteen fifty two, Coretta Scott.

Speaker 27 (02:32:16):
Has met Paul Robeson, has met Bayard Rusten before she
meets Martin Martin Luther King, right, she meets both of
those men through her work as a student delegate and
work with the Progressive Party. So who she is when
they meet when they get married, just to tell you
a story. When they get married in nineteen fifty three,

(02:32:38):
shests she won't wear white, she doesn't wear a long dress.

Speaker 4 (02:32:41):
She wears a tea length like blue dress.

Speaker 27 (02:32:44):
And she insists to her very imposing father in law
to take Obey out of their vows because it makes
her feel like an indentured servant. Okay, so this is
who Coretta Scott is, and who is Martin Luther King's
beloved and again nineteen fifty three, this is not nineteen
sixty eight, right, nineteen fifty three, no obey. She keeps

(02:33:06):
her name right, despite the fact that the press often
just will refer to her as missus Martin Luther King.
If you hear her, she is always Coreta Scott King.
That global perspective that we often associate again with the
last years of his life, she has much earlier. For instance,
nineteen sixty two, she joins a women Strike for Peace

(02:33:29):
delegation to Geneva around pressuring the United States and the
Soviet Union to sign a.

Speaker 4 (02:33:34):
Nuclear test ban treaty.

Speaker 27 (02:33:35):
She's very sort of committed to kind of global peace,
anti nuclear She leads a march in nineteen sixty three
eight to the UN. She meets with the head of
the UN. So these global issues, and then when he
gets the Nobel Prize at nineteen sixty four, she talks
about it as both a joy, but she also sees
it as a burden because she sees them having a

(02:33:57):
much greater responsibility to the world, and in particular to
coming out against US policy in Vietnam, and from nineteen
sixty five on, she is out against the war in Vietnam.
And this is tremendously controversial, it's tremendously brave, right, And

(02:34:19):
she's really leading the country, not I mean she's she's
leading him, but she's also leading the country around this issue.
And again I think we often see sort of we
miss right that, like you're saying, many of doctor King's
sort of ideas are being shaped in conversation, in.

Speaker 4 (02:34:41):
You know, in her politics as well.

Speaker 3 (02:34:45):
Last question, what if we apply, if we apply what
King was trying to do outside of the South, then
what lessons do we take from this today in terms
of how we should be approaching what's happening in this country.

(02:35:06):
What is happening in this country I believe, I fundamentally believe,
is not a South versus North, but as a city
urban problem and everywhere else.

Speaker 7 (02:35:23):
It's nirvana. It's heavy.

Speaker 4 (02:35:26):
So I think there's a number of lessons.

Speaker 27 (02:35:29):
The first is a part of again looking at the
King of the North, is about also challenging the misuse
of Doctor King against movements today. Right, My students talk
about how King has often rolled out as the ultimate
gaslight right against Black Lives Matter, against the Palestine protests. Right,
you're not doing it right more like Martin. You know,

(02:35:51):
he was respectable, he was passive and in many ways
missing that the very same criticisms of young people today.
Young activists today are being waged against doctor King.

Speaker 4 (02:36:05):
Right. So that's the first lesson, right, is what does
it mean to be more like King?

Speaker 7 (02:36:09):
Right?

Speaker 5 (02:36:09):
To be more like.

Speaker 27 (02:36:10):
King is, in fact like many young activists today. The
second is the King is a believer in nonviolence, but
that nonviolence is about disrupting the status quote, it's disrupting
the comfort of inequality. And so that nonviolence is bus boycotts,
it's sit ins, it's rent strikes, it's school boycotts, it's

(02:36:33):
disrupting city life. One of my favorite quotes from Doctor
King in nineteen sixty.

Speaker 4 (02:36:39):
Four Brooklyn Corp.

Speaker 27 (02:36:42):
Is they've been protesting housing and school segregation and job
discrimination in the city and gotten very little change, And
so they decide they're going to stall cars on the
freeway out of the World's fair. The World's Fair is
opening in Queens in nineteen sixty four in New York City,
and as you might imagine, black moderates, white moderates, city

(02:37:04):
leaders go crazy, This is horrible, How could they do that?
And they try to get doctor King to come out
against this, and he refuses, and he says, we do
not need allies more devoted to order than to justice, right,
And then he says, I've heard a lot of talk
about our direct action alienating our friends. If our direct
action alienates our friends, they never were really our friends.

Speaker 7 (02:37:28):
Right.

Speaker 27 (02:37:29):
So I think that the necessity of disrupting the comfort
of inequality the comfort of injustice.

Speaker 4 (02:37:36):
And then I think the third lesson we get.

Speaker 27 (02:37:38):
From sort of both Kings is the ability to double down, right,
to go bigger, go wider.

Speaker 4 (02:37:45):
Right that I think sometimes we forget how hard it
is and how scary it is, and how scared they are. Right,
that that part of what people.

Speaker 27 (02:37:55):
Like Martin Luther King and Credit Scott King bring is
the ability to move within fear, not that they stop
being scared, right. So I think we have to disabuse
ourselves of this idea that you just move past fear.

Speaker 7 (02:38:09):
No.

Speaker 27 (02:38:10):
But also their ability to double down that in the
face of pressure, in the face of opposition, in the
face of threats, to both stand fast and then also
to go bigger and.

Speaker 7 (02:38:22):
Go harder, folks.

Speaker 3 (02:38:24):
The book is King of the North Martin Luther King
Junior's Life of Struggle Outside the South of Jean Theoharis,
Genie's great that you were researching something else and stumble
upon the amazing work that Reverend doutor Martin Uther King
Junior was doing there in the North. I did not

(02:38:46):
ask this question, but I'll make the statement, and I'm
sure you agree because you're reporting lays it out.

Speaker 7 (02:38:52):
The other things is here. King was criticized of.

Speaker 3 (02:38:55):
People of say, oh, he's swooping in, But the reality
is he was called by people to come in. King
supported local efforts on the ground. It wasn't about him
stealing attention when he was called. He was elevating what
the local folks were doing and giving them credit and

(02:39:15):
backing up what the fights they were doing on the
ground as well. And so that's too often, I think
a mistake that people make as well, thinking he was
just swooping in for all the attention. So he was
helping local organizers amplify their work.

Speaker 7 (02:39:29):
Thank you, appreciate it. Fascinating book.

Speaker 4 (02:39:31):
Thanks a lot, Thanks so much,

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