August 12, 2022 • 26 mins
Former professional basketball coach and player George Karl joins Ron Barr to discuss his life, career, and recent induction into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. After playing for the San Antonio Spurs for five years, Karl started his coaching career as an assistant for the Spurs before becoming a head coach in the Continental Basketball Association in 1981. Three years later, he became one of the youngest NBA head coaches in history when he took over the Cleveland Cavaliers at age 33. By the end of his coaching career in 2016, Karl had coached nine different teams in three different leagues (CBA, NBA, Liga ACB), was named Coach of the Year three times, and won one championship in the FIBA Saporta Cup. He is one of nine coaches in NBA history to have won 1,000 NBA game and while he never won an NBA championship, Karl made the postseason 22 times with five different teams, including a trip to the 1996 NBA Finals with the Seattle SuperSonics.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Ron Bar and this is today's edition of
Ron Bars Sports Byline USA podcast on the eight Side Network.
George Carl joins us on Sports Byline former NBA player
and coach, and he's one of nine NBA coaches to
have one a thousand games. His NBA coaching journey has
been a very interesting one. He played his college ball
for Dean Smith at North Carolina and then played five
(00:22):
years in the A B A and the NBA with
the San Antonio Spurs, and his head coaching resume includes Cleveland,
Golden State, Seatdale, Milwaukee, Denver, and Sacramento. And George, I've
known for a good long period of time, and he
knows how to coach, and he certainly knows how to
speak his mind. And when it comes to speaking his mind,
he certainly did do that with his new book called
(00:43):
Furious George My forty years surviving NBA Diva's clueless GMS
and poor shot selection. And George, We've known each other
for a long time and I was not surprised to
see you write a book or even the title. But
tell me why you decided to write a kind of
take no prisoners book. Hell, be honest with you. I
don't think I went into that much detail the excerpts
(01:05):
or the what what that you all have been reading,
and the book itself. I think it's a positive journey
through my career. And I do go off on talking
about the game and the game from what what I
felt where I feel. I think too many times when
you get a coach on TV, he's filtering about about
seventy of what he's saying because he's got to protective team.
(01:28):
He's got he's got prepare for the next game, he's
got a rally the troops. But in the same sense, uh,
I think filtering sometimes the truth is not the best thing.
And I wrote this book just to show my frustration
of the game has been great. I've had some great
rhymes and wants, some had a lot of fun in
(01:49):
the game of basketball, winning some games, and the and
the friendships are unbelievable and and but there are things
about the game that drives coaches crazy. You know, it's frustrating.
I know because since I've known you for a long time,
right after you got let go with the Golden State Warriors,
I remember the dinner that we had and I could
see it in your face. I could hear it in
(02:10):
your voice, tell me a little bit about how you're coaching.
Philosophy and outlook on basketball was developed. I think a
lot of it started, of course at North Carolino Dean Smith.
I played in the A B A days, and I
liked the A B A game a little bit more. Uh,
that set the speed of the game, the three point shooting,
that kind of the entertainments actor, the very white and
(02:33):
blue ball and mascots and stuff like that was more
A B AS And then maybe NBA sh um you know,
Bob Doug mo Y, Bron Non, Don Nelson, Dell, Harris
Rose are the guys that probably touched me as much
as anybody. And rickman Jarison on the college side, along
(02:53):
with Dean Smith and Bill Duff, Geno, Roy Williams. So
you know, I'm a basketball guy. I love the game.
My family's a basketball family. My my daughter is married
to a high school girls coach in Olympia, washing It,
and my son is of course coaching. The D League
came in l A at the l A Defenders, George,
When you take a look at the game, was the
(03:15):
point that it kind of changed a little bit is
when the big money really came into it. Well. I
think it's a combination of maybe the TV money, the
big money, and the evolution of the game with the
three point shot. I think those two are probably the
dynamic changes were all of a sudden, you know, in
the NBA was having trouble beginning on TV and now
(03:38):
they're on TV every night. Uh. And and then the
other dynamic I think would be on my top top
of the list would be the three point shot. You know,
early in the NBA days and when they emerged, no
one shot it. Now everybody is shooting it, and people
think they're probably shooting it too much right now. The
other thing I find interesting is that I think they're
(03:59):
big came a time maybe when the money started coming
into a George, that it went from being uh, you know,
basketball and from a technical standpoint to being more entertainment.
Am I correcting that observation? Uh, you know, entertainment business.
You know, all of a sudden, everything is based upon
how we're going to make money. Uh. You know. The
(04:20):
early days of the NBA, I think owners owned it
for a community service. Now owners owned it because it's
a big business. As a it's a billion dollar business,
and so that that's just that change where you know,
sometimes my owner early in the eighties and nineties, I
wouldn't even see it. I've seen him maybe twice a year.
(04:42):
And now I think owners are so are much more involved.
They're much more aware of the modern line both on
the court, winning and losing games, and also in the
profit sheet with the who makes money and what makes money?
How can you approach a player today because I know
in the New York Magazine story you said there were
(05:02):
too many times with Milo uh when what he was
going and had going on off the court was more
important than what he was happening on the court as well.
And you've been very candid about players. Are they approachable?
Are they coachable today? Yeah? I never felt any players unpoachable.
I mean players, it's the connection that the coaches got,
(05:24):
you know, and the coach is probably more more that's
his concern and it's probably his project more than a player. Uh.
But connection where players listen. Players want to be a
good team mate and and play with the team concept
and understand that the better we played, the more is
(05:46):
in for it than than for you than when when
we don't play it with we I know, when you
were in Denver. You didn't hold any punches when it
came to uh Anthony's Denver teammates, either calling Kenyan Martin
and j R. Smith a au babies in the oil
bratts you see in junior golf and junior tennis. I
happen to agree with that comment there. But is anything
going to change? And if you call them out, is
(06:07):
that going to help or change anything. I'm not calling
them out as much as I'm making a discussion opened
up to talk about where the game is. I think
it's the state of the game is being it's being changed.
It should be converse all the good things, but also
you gotta talked sometimes about the bad things that maybe
(06:30):
money's bringing to the game of basketball. Let's go back
to Cleveland, because that's where you got your first head
coaching opportunity in Cleveland, and you did something with them.
You you got them turned around, you took them to
the playoffs, and you had things going in the right direction.
What happened there, I think I was in young coach
trying to find a more secure position I was offered.
(06:51):
I was I was asked to come down and be
interviewed from my hometown school University of Pittsburgh and U
and they didn't like it and they were upset by
but they still gave me permission to go. And I
think it was more off the course stuff such the
team wasn't having success on the court, but it's probably
(07:14):
the ambition done in the way more than anything. One
of the things that is always important when it comes
to a head coach is the general manager he happens
to work for. I know with Bill Walsh it was
important for him when he took over the forty Niners
that he had a GM that he could work with.
And certainly in the title of your book you talk
about some such things like the clueless gms. Tell me
about that relationship between coach and GM, how it works
(07:36):
and when it doesn't work. I think it's the most
important relationship in your organization, and I think too too
many times it's not. It doesn't have a great relationship.
But I look at Pop and R. C. Bouchford, and
I look at pat Riley and Erik Spoelscher and you know,
and I think, and David Griffin has done a good job,
(07:57):
I think in Cleveland. But the game it's changing the
influence of the game is probably more now in the
front office than ever before, and the coach just hits
the gym and hopefully some saying and and some trades
and situations. But the game has changed so fast, and
the evolution of the money and the contracts, sometimes I
(08:20):
think it might be growing too fast. And what about
the game itself the way it has played the officiating,
because I know you have some very strong statements in
this book about the referees. Well, every coach in America
is not complaining about the referee. I mean, no one
is happy. When you play a two games and you
got this guy referee in twenty of your games and
your records floor in sixteen and those twenty you're upset,
(08:45):
You're worried, you're nervous, you're paranoid. But in the same sense,
I think all NBA coaches or anybody that's ever been
in the NBA knows that's the best referees in the
world or NBA officials. But that to me, we're going
to get along. It's not going to It doesn't mean
that we're not getting it angry because your call is
(09:06):
determined the outcome of the game. Is it harder to
a referee the game than it was even five or
ten years ago because of the speed and the size
of the players. Okay, so I think I think the
one one argument people said they want to change some rules,
the court might be too small. I don't know if
you made it wider, I wouldn't want to make it longer.
(09:28):
But I don't know. If you gave the court more
space to play, it might might help the game because
the athletes decide to speed. The quickness of these guys
is the more space you give, the more slamboyant they're
gonna be. We got about a minute before we have
to break here. But when you take a look at
your visit and your time with the Golden State Warriors,
that had got to be frustrating because you were turning
(09:49):
that team around and then all of a sudden you
had three or top four scorers taken away from you
and you lost another one. Chris Mullen, as he had
alcoholic rehab, tell me a little bit about what was
so tough a dealing with that situation. Oh, I think
you phrased it pretty well. You know, after the first year,
you know, we're hoping to build on that and progressing
(10:09):
a good way. It didn't get off to a good start,
and we made the big Samps in trade, and the
trade didn't work. I think Purvis, Larry Smith, and Chris
Small and all missed a lot of that year, so
you were basically trading, you know, three good players to
get one that didn't pan out as well as you wanted.
(10:30):
Pause you missed, so you're probably playing in the middle
of that year. You're pat playing with your fifth or
six man as your best learned. George Carr was with
us on Sports Byline. I want you to check out
his book. It's an excellent read or give you great
insights into basketball. It's called Furious George, My Forty Years
Surviving NBA Divas, clueless GMS and poor shot Selection. We'll
(10:52):
talk about his years up in Seattle when he went
to the NBA Finals. As we continue on Sports Byeline,
you're listening to Ron bars Wort's Byline USA podcast. George
Carlos joined us here on Sports Byeline USA. I've known
George for a very long time. I've said, I've talked
basketball with him from time to time, and I love
the book that he has out. I'm recommending, and it's
(11:12):
called Furious George. My forty years surviving NBA Diva's clueless
gms and poor shot selection. When you got to Seattle,
what type of team did you find up there? Um, basically,
a very athletic team, maybe the most athletic team I've
coached up to that point in the game. The Shawn
and Nate and Gary and Derek McKee, a lot of lent,
(11:35):
a lot of athletics, and basically we're probably as good
as defensive players, and they were offensive players. So you know,
it was the team when I got there. Bob Poffenberg
was my assistant coach, just a great defensive guy, and
you know, he convinced me to be aggressive and start
double teaming a lot, and we played that way for
all seven years I was in c Yeah, and you
(11:57):
took him to the playoffs all seven of those years.
It looked like to me as I watched your teams
up there, that the chemistry was pretty good as well.
And of course, when you say chemistry, that's kind of
a nebulous word. Did you have the right chemistry up there? Yeah?
Mostly years up there, you know we had you know,
the first team we had could score points with some
(12:18):
jump shooters like Eddie Johnson and Rick Rickey Pearce on
our team. And you know we had two studs and
Yaric Paynton and Sean Kemp and you know, and Michael
Cage was a good rebounded. We had a good team
and Nay McMillan was off the bench. Is it a
great bench player of great point guard for me? Uh?
And then every year we take here it a little bit,
you know, we taker and one year we got you know,
(12:41):
Kendall deal and we we didn't my dad. We got
harrisy Hawkins. And when syd Derrek McKee for that mistry.
We made some smart moves along the way that a
trade of Annoy Benjamin for Sam Perkins. Uh. All those
moves really helped us catapult ourselves into being. In my
second year and in Seattle we would go to the
(13:02):
Western Homis Finals. You certainly did reach your peak in
Seattle in six the SuperSonics. You led them to sixty
four wins, a Pacific Division title in their first NBA
Finals appearance since nineteen seventy nine, but you end up
losing to the Chicago Bulls in six games. Take me
through that series for just a moment, George. The difficult
(13:23):
of time wash, you know, you know, trying to get
the matchups where you wanted them. And you know, initially
we didn't want to. We we didn't put Gary Payton
on on Michael from the beginning. We thought, we were
saying from the fourth quarter he had a little bit
of a muscle poll and his lower leg. Uh, that
didn't work out because when when finally put Gary artum,
(13:46):
it worked out a lot better. And that that's when
we won two in a row and in one game five,
in the one game five, during the game four and
Game five and in Seattle. But it was it was
a defensive series. It was more, you know, we talked
about all the great offensive skills of Michael Scotty and
Sean Camp and Seattle team I had, but that ended
(14:10):
up to be in a very very much a defensive series,
two really good defensive teams battling it out. What was
the challenge and how did you approach the challenge of
trying to contain Michael Jordan's Oh, you know, you know,
you know the basic rules that you didn't want him
on the streets online. You wanted to try to play
and physically when he didn't have the ball and zone
(14:32):
him up when he did have the ball, make him
see a crowd, don't let him, don't let him have
a lot of space. Uh, and then trying to keep
him off the street on line when he went to
the basket, and you know, he made some threes then,
but he didn't shoot the three that much yet that season.
I want to ask about how it ended in Seattle
because while Walker was my broadcasting partner for a while
(14:56):
for Pac twelve Pac ten Basketball and I when he
took the job up in Seattle, I didn't think it
was the right job for him. And I'm not going
to go into details as to why. But knowing you
as I do, and your personality and your intensity for
the game, and knowing him as I did, I didn't
think it was a good marriage. And obviously that proved
to be correct. What was the breakdown there? Oh? I
(15:19):
think the breakdown was line was mad David Bob Ward
and Mark Workington. I think it was more I was
mad they took my guys away and and they gave
the responsibility to a guy that never had the job
and I didn't know very well. And uh, And I
(15:40):
think it's probably my useful ego and attitude that probably.
You know, if if Wally would have taken that job
when I was fifty five, I think they probably would
have gotten along a lot better. I'm not surprised to
hear you say that you moved on and became the
head coach with the Milwaukee Bucks, that you've got a
great con track there, and you really did some good
(16:02):
things up there as well, because they had not made
the playoffs in seven seasons, and you helped rebuild a
struggling organization. And I'm just wondering, what does it take
to rebuild a team that either doesn't believe that they
can make the playoffs or doesn't have the talent, or
a combination of both. Well, we had many young players
and Rayon and Glenn Robinson and UH, and we would
(16:24):
get there and make the trade the next year and
get Sam to sell was. I thought it was a
great pick up. UH. I think the thing that makes
teams work from a coaching standpoint is a good point guard.
I gotta understands what you're trying to do and kind
of leads it in his personality without without without offending
name by UH. I thought in Milwaukee, you know, we
(16:50):
got to the conference finals and we had we played.
One year, we take in the Inner really well in
the first run. I thought we should beating them in
a five game series time. But the one year when
we got to the conference finals, it was probably as
that team probably had the least amount of talent that
I think ever got to the conference final, and we
(17:11):
were very close to winning it. You know, we missed
a jump shot in the game five. That big dog
makes the jump shot, we probably win that series and six. Yeah,
you take a look. You had Glenn Robinson, you had
Ray Allen, and I had Sam Cassell and I liked
all three of those players. What was the chemistry for them?
What made them work so well together? Well, what's you
think about is you go from Seattle, was your defensive
(17:33):
minded team, and then you go to Milwaukee and uh,
you know it's an offensive team. They can score, they
can score points. We had Tim Thomas off the bench.
I think we had one month, one month in uh
in In in my time in Endever when we had
four guys score four points in the same months, four
(17:53):
different guys. And that's how that's how powerful our offense was.
And so I had to change around, maybe from being
the defensive mind ap coached to the offensive endy court.
And I can't deny that Milwaukee might have been the
most excited city I've been in when we got to
(18:14):
the Eastern Conference Final. That city was really into that series.
I make in two thousand and one. Two thousand five
is a hallmark hear on on the personal front because
the Nuggets announced that you had prostate cancer. And then
later on, of course your son Cody, playing as a
starting point guard for Boise State um and has played
in the NBA and other leagues, he is told he
(18:36):
has thyroid cancer as well. Tell me a little bit
about how you reacted to hearing that you had cancer.
Cancer is difficult and as a word that you know,
I think if you don't study it, don't know about it,
it means someone might die. And you know, I can't
deny ever since I've had two cancers, you know, you know,
(18:57):
dying he is on the plate a little bit more
when when you that your body continues to produce and
cancers as But from the standpoint in the family, I
thought Kobe and I's journey into the world of living
with with a cancer situation and getting get treated and
moving on unfortunately prostrating five order or basically they take
(19:19):
them out and you can live well without them. So
both of them are very very little bit. But in
the same sense, when you get told you un cancer,
you're nervous, You're scared, especially for your son. And I
can't deny a few times I was screaming that God
on my backyard. But in the same sense, I think
(19:41):
as for a lot of cancer patients going through the
journey fighting in persevering and becoming and getting up and
up when you get knocked down when you have cancer,
and then the recovery once you go through that. I
think so many things, and I know Kobe and I
would would agree with a fish. You get stronger, you
(20:03):
get better, you get smarter because of cancer. And I
think that's the good thing about the journey that I
went through. And I think you have a greater appreciation
for smaller things. Am I correct about that, George, No question?
I mean I I gave up too many good things
in life to try to win a basketball game, and
(20:23):
I've learned to keep my life a little more balanced.
I still think that winning a game is pretty exciting
to do and a great challenge to be a coach.
In the NBA. But I think I need to I
need to give more time to my family, give more
time to me, and I think I learned to do
(20:43):
that the last four or five years of coaching. One
thing I've always asked as highly skilled athletes when they've
gone through things like you just talked about, is the
discipline that goes along with being an athlete or being
a coach, because I think that discipline in their life
doing what they do make them a little bit tougher
in things. Did you find that that discipline of being
a basketball player, player at the pro level and a
(21:06):
coach at the pro level helped you deal with some
of the challenges in dealing with this. I don't think
there's any question that the dedication and discipline and and
just to focus of the focus of knowing you can
do things and believing it. You know, if he's staying it,
it'll get better. Uh. You know, I think basketball is
(21:28):
are still a good teacher of life. I still think
it's a good teacher of a character and substance. And
I mean, we we all have the great stories that
come out of sports, and I still think basketball is
is a prime time teacher of life. You know, It's interesting.
When I watched your Nuggets team in two thousand four,
two thousand five and that start thirty two and eight,
(21:51):
I just thought they were going to be almost unbeatable.
Tell me about that string of games, Uh, the first
forty games of that season, that was amazing. I think
we actually had a pretty good schedule. But you know,
I think I inherited the team that was struggling from
a standpoint of making it work. And when I got here,
I got a tremendous commitment from them within. And then
(22:12):
the style, and of course, enthusiasm comes when you win games.
And when we started winning, we got we got confident, confident,
and we kept one thing, especially on our home court.
And I never thought to you two and a whatever happened,
but it was one of my best stretches. It was funny.
We played San Antonio in the first round, and we
(22:34):
did him the first day under Miller. I remember, I
had a great game for us and we beat him
and uh, and then they came back to being a
fourth straight after that. But it was it was a
great run. We was your best year coaching two thousand thirteen,
when you got the NBA Coach of the Year award,
you know what wrong? And I'll say that was the
most fun I hadn't coaching, and I think it was.
(22:57):
I think we squeezed the juice side of that one good.
We got the most out of that team. Uh And
I think most teams are that coached and it was
a joy. What what it doesn't happen all the time
is you know, success doesn't mean you're happy that year
we were successful. It was joyful and we were happy
knowing the pressures that coaches are under and what they
(23:19):
have to deal with with the media, with ownership, as
you talk about general managers and the players themselves. You know,
you use the word fun and I don't hear that
very often when I talked to NBA coaches. Has that
gone out of the game for a coach? I think so?
I think, you know, winning now is you know the
I think the money in the game makes the coach
(23:41):
field was more responsible and you know we we you know,
we used to win a game and go out afterwards
in the same town with the coaches that you just played,
talk trash, tell stories and enjoy life. Now with charges
you're on the next time, next city, and as soon
as you get on the airplane, what you're doing as
you're putting the video on and you're running the game.
(24:03):
You just playing and maybe one more before you get
to the next city. So the joy, it doesn't come
out as much as it used to, and that's not good. Somehow,
somewhere appreciate success. Everybody likes it, and if you feel it,
I think you do better in the future. We only
have a minute left, George. But when you think back
on your long career more than four decades and think
(24:25):
about the moment you've you've had and everything, what is
that one moment that is kind of emblazoned in George
Carl's mind. Well, you know, I think that the one
years is uh probably you know, the Utah Series winning
that knowing you're in, knowing the NBA Finals and played
Michael Jordan's that that that Sunday was a pretty special
(24:46):
Sunday in everybody's life. I think that that was on
that team. And I think the second thing is watching
my son play basketball and being to make him being
a pro and watching him play play the game very
well that I love and I want to stayed every
once a while. You know, he'd be the best player
(25:08):
on the court and that was a very producing, very
problem moment. George, I want to thank you. We've been
friends for a long time. I've respected you for as
long as I've known you, and of course you've had
a great career almost two thousand victories as well. And
thank you again for sharing your career in your life
with us. Uh and I look forward to our hooking
up again. Take care, my friend, Ron, You're the best.
(25:31):
I enjoyed it. Thank you very much, George, carl with
us and again, check out this book. It's a great read.
It will give you great insight into the NBA. Furious
George My forty years surviving NBA Diva's clueless GMS and
poor shot selection. I've never seen a title like that before.
But he was a very intense coach, but he also
a very successful coach as well. We continue across the
(25:54):
country and around the world on Sports Byeline. You have
been listening to Ron Bars Sports by Lie in USA
podcast on the eight Side Network.
Hi, I'm Ron Bar and this is today's edition of
Ron Bars Sports Byline USA podcast on the eight Side Network.
George Carl joins us on Sports Byline former NBA player
and coach, and he's one of nine NBA coaches to
have one a thousand games. His NBA coaching journey has
been a very interesting one. He played his college ball
for Dean Smith at North Carolina and then played five
(00:22):
years in the A B A and the NBA with
the San Antonio Spurs, and his head coaching resume includes Cleveland,
Golden State, Seatdale, Milwaukee, Denver, and Sacramento. And George, I've
known for a good long period of time, and he
knows how to coach, and he certainly knows how to
speak his mind. And when it comes to speaking his mind,
he certainly did do that with his new book called
(00:43):
Furious George My forty years surviving NBA Diva's clueless GMS
and poor shot selection. And George, We've known each other
for a long time and I was not surprised to
see you write a book or even the title. But
tell me why you decided to write a kind of
take no prisoners book. Hell, be honest with you. I
don't think I went into that much detail the excerpts
(01:05):
or the what what that you all have been reading,
and the book itself. I think it's a positive journey
through my career. And I do go off on talking
about the game and the game from what what I
felt where I feel. I think too many times when
you get a coach on TV, he's filtering about about
seventy of what he's saying because he's got to protective team.
(01:28):
He's got he's got prepare for the next game, he's
got a rally the troops. But in the same sense, uh,
I think filtering sometimes the truth is not the best thing.
And I wrote this book just to show my frustration
of the game has been great. I've had some great
rhymes and wants, some had a lot of fun in
(01:49):
the game of basketball, winning some games, and the and
the friendships are unbelievable and and but there are things
about the game that drives coaches crazy. You know, it's frustrating.
I know because since I've known you for a long time,
right after you got let go with the Golden State Warriors,
I remember the dinner that we had and I could
see it in your face. I could hear it in
(02:10):
your voice, tell me a little bit about how you're coaching.
Philosophy and outlook on basketball was developed. I think a
lot of it started, of course at North Carolino Dean Smith.
I played in the A B A days, and I
liked the A B A game a little bit more. Uh,
that set the speed of the game, the three point shooting,
that kind of the entertainments actor, the very white and
(02:33):
blue ball and mascots and stuff like that was more
A B AS And then maybe NBA sh um you know,
Bob Doug mo Y, Bron Non, Don Nelson, Dell, Harris
Rose are the guys that probably touched me as much
as anybody. And rickman Jarison on the college side, along
(02:53):
with Dean Smith and Bill Duff, Geno, Roy Williams. So
you know, I'm a basketball guy. I love the game.
My family's a basketball family. My my daughter is married
to a high school girls coach in Olympia, washing It,
and my son is of course coaching. The D League
came in l A at the l A Defenders, George,
When you take a look at the game, was the
(03:15):
point that it kind of changed a little bit is
when the big money really came into it. Well. I
think it's a combination of maybe the TV money, the
big money, and the evolution of the game with the
three point shot. I think those two are probably the
dynamic changes were all of a sudden, you know, in
the NBA was having trouble beginning on TV and now
(03:38):
they're on TV every night. Uh. And and then the
other dynamic I think would be on my top top
of the list would be the three point shot. You know,
early in the NBA days and when they emerged, no
one shot it. Now everybody is shooting it, and people
think they're probably shooting it too much right now. The
other thing I find interesting is that I think they're
(03:59):
big came a time maybe when the money started coming
into a George, that it went from being uh, you know,
basketball and from a technical standpoint to being more entertainment.
Am I correcting that observation? Uh, you know, entertainment business.
You know, all of a sudden, everything is based upon
how we're going to make money. Uh. You know. The
(04:20):
early days of the NBA, I think owners owned it
for a community service. Now owners owned it because it's
a big business. As a it's a billion dollar business,
and so that that's just that change where you know,
sometimes my owner early in the eighties and nineties, I
wouldn't even see it. I've seen him maybe twice a year.
(04:42):
And now I think owners are so are much more involved.
They're much more aware of the modern line both on
the court, winning and losing games, and also in the
profit sheet with the who makes money and what makes money?
How can you approach a player today because I know
in the New York Magazine story you said there were
(05:02):
too many times with Milo uh when what he was
going and had going on off the court was more
important than what he was happening on the court as well.
And you've been very candid about players. Are they approachable?
Are they coachable today? Yeah? I never felt any players unpoachable.
I mean players, it's the connection that the coaches got,
(05:24):
you know, and the coach is probably more more that's
his concern and it's probably his project more than a player. Uh.
But connection where players listen. Players want to be a
good team mate and and play with the team concept
and understand that the better we played, the more is
(05:46):
in for it than than for you than when when
we don't play it with we I know, when you
were in Denver. You didn't hold any punches when it
came to uh Anthony's Denver teammates, either calling Kenyan Martin
and j R. Smith a au babies in the oil
bratts you see in junior golf and junior tennis. I
happen to agree with that comment there. But is anything
going to change? And if you call them out, is
(06:07):
that going to help or change anything. I'm not calling
them out as much as I'm making a discussion opened
up to talk about where the game is. I think
it's the state of the game is being it's being changed.
It should be converse all the good things, but also
you gotta talked sometimes about the bad things that maybe
(06:30):
money's bringing to the game of basketball. Let's go back
to Cleveland, because that's where you got your first head
coaching opportunity in Cleveland, and you did something with them.
You you got them turned around, you took them to
the playoffs, and you had things going in the right direction.
What happened there, I think I was in young coach
trying to find a more secure position I was offered.
(06:51):
I was I was asked to come down and be
interviewed from my hometown school University of Pittsburgh and U
and they didn't like it and they were upset by
but they still gave me permission to go. And I
think it was more off the course stuff such the
team wasn't having success on the court, but it's probably
(07:14):
the ambition done in the way more than anything. One
of the things that is always important when it comes
to a head coach is the general manager he happens
to work for. I know with Bill Walsh it was
important for him when he took over the forty Niners
that he had a GM that he could work with.
And certainly in the title of your book you talk
about some such things like the clueless gms. Tell me
about that relationship between coach and GM, how it works
(07:36):
and when it doesn't work. I think it's the most
important relationship in your organization, and I think too too
many times it's not. It doesn't have a great relationship.
But I look at Pop and R. C. Bouchford, and
I look at pat Riley and Erik Spoelscher and you know,
and I think, and David Griffin has done a good job,
(07:57):
I think in Cleveland. But the game it's changing the
influence of the game is probably more now in the
front office than ever before, and the coach just hits
the gym and hopefully some saying and and some trades
and situations. But the game has changed so fast, and
the evolution of the money and the contracts, sometimes I
(08:20):
think it might be growing too fast. And what about
the game itself the way it has played the officiating,
because I know you have some very strong statements in
this book about the referees. Well, every coach in America
is not complaining about the referee. I mean, no one
is happy. When you play a two games and you
got this guy referee in twenty of your games and
your records floor in sixteen and those twenty you're upset,
(08:45):
You're worried, you're nervous, you're paranoid. But in the same sense,
I think all NBA coaches or anybody that's ever been
in the NBA knows that's the best referees in the
world or NBA officials. But that to me, we're going
to get along. It's not going to It doesn't mean
that we're not getting it angry because your call is
(09:06):
determined the outcome of the game. Is it harder to
a referee the game than it was even five or
ten years ago because of the speed and the size
of the players. Okay, so I think I think the
one one argument people said they want to change some rules,
the court might be too small. I don't know if
you made it wider, I wouldn't want to make it longer.
(09:28):
But I don't know. If you gave the court more
space to play, it might might help the game because
the athletes decide to speed. The quickness of these guys
is the more space you give, the more slamboyant they're
gonna be. We got about a minute before we have
to break here. But when you take a look at
your visit and your time with the Golden State Warriors,
that had got to be frustrating because you were turning
(09:49):
that team around and then all of a sudden you
had three or top four scorers taken away from you
and you lost another one. Chris Mullen, as he had
alcoholic rehab, tell me a little bit about what was
so tough a dealing with that situation. Oh, I think
you phrased it pretty well. You know, after the first year,
you know, we're hoping to build on that and progressing
(10:09):
a good way. It didn't get off to a good start,
and we made the big Samps in trade, and the
trade didn't work. I think Purvis, Larry Smith, and Chris
Small and all missed a lot of that year, so
you were basically trading, you know, three good players to
get one that didn't pan out as well as you wanted.
(10:30):
Pause you missed, so you're probably playing in the middle
of that year. You're pat playing with your fifth or
six man as your best learned. George Carr was with
us on Sports Byline. I want you to check out
his book. It's an excellent read or give you great
insights into basketball. It's called Furious George, My Forty Years
Surviving NBA Divas, clueless GMS and poor shot Selection. We'll
(10:52):
talk about his years up in Seattle when he went
to the NBA Finals. As we continue on Sports Byeline,
you're listening to Ron bars Wort's Byline USA podcast. George
Carlos joined us here on Sports Byeline USA. I've known
George for a very long time. I've said, I've talked
basketball with him from time to time, and I love
the book that he has out. I'm recommending, and it's
(11:12):
called Furious George. My forty years surviving NBA Diva's clueless
gms and poor shot selection. When you got to Seattle,
what type of team did you find up there? Um, basically,
a very athletic team, maybe the most athletic team I've
coached up to that point in the game. The Shawn
and Nate and Gary and Derek McKee, a lot of lent,
(11:35):
a lot of athletics, and basically we're probably as good
as defensive players, and they were offensive players. So you know,
it was the team when I got there. Bob Poffenberg
was my assistant coach, just a great defensive guy, and
you know, he convinced me to be aggressive and start
double teaming a lot, and we played that way for
all seven years I was in c Yeah, and you
(11:57):
took him to the playoffs all seven of those years.
It looked like to me as I watched your teams
up there, that the chemistry was pretty good as well.
And of course, when you say chemistry, that's kind of
a nebulous word. Did you have the right chemistry up there? Yeah?
Mostly years up there, you know we had you know,
the first team we had could score points with some
(12:18):
jump shooters like Eddie Johnson and Rick Rickey Pearce on
our team. And you know we had two studs and
Yaric Paynton and Sean Kemp and you know, and Michael
Cage was a good rebounded. We had a good team
and Nay McMillan was off the bench. Is it a
great bench player of great point guard for me? Uh?
And then every year we take here it a little bit,
you know, we taker and one year we got you know,
(12:41):
Kendall deal and we we didn't my dad. We got
harrisy Hawkins. And when syd Derrek McKee for that mistry.
We made some smart moves along the way that a
trade of Annoy Benjamin for Sam Perkins. Uh. All those
moves really helped us catapult ourselves into being. In my
second year and in Seattle we would go to the
(13:02):
Western Homis Finals. You certainly did reach your peak in
Seattle in six the SuperSonics. You led them to sixty
four wins, a Pacific Division title in their first NBA
Finals appearance since nineteen seventy nine, but you end up
losing to the Chicago Bulls in six games. Take me
through that series for just a moment, George. The difficult
(13:23):
of time wash, you know, you know, trying to get
the matchups where you wanted them. And you know, initially
we didn't want to. We we didn't put Gary Payton
on on Michael from the beginning. We thought, we were
saying from the fourth quarter he had a little bit
of a muscle poll and his lower leg. Uh, that
didn't work out because when when finally put Gary artum,
(13:46):
it worked out a lot better. And that that's when
we won two in a row and in one game five,
in the one game five, during the game four and
Game five and in Seattle. But it was it was
a defensive series. It was more, you know, we talked
about all the great offensive skills of Michael Scotty and
Sean Camp and Seattle team I had, but that ended
(14:10):
up to be in a very very much a defensive series,
two really good defensive teams battling it out. What was
the challenge and how did you approach the challenge of
trying to contain Michael Jordan's Oh, you know, you know,
you know the basic rules that you didn't want him
on the streets online. You wanted to try to play
and physically when he didn't have the ball and zone
(14:32):
him up when he did have the ball, make him
see a crowd, don't let him, don't let him have
a lot of space. Uh, and then trying to keep
him off the street on line when he went to
the basket, and you know, he made some threes then,
but he didn't shoot the three that much yet that season.
I want to ask about how it ended in Seattle
because while Walker was my broadcasting partner for a while
(14:56):
for Pac twelve Pac ten Basketball and I when he
took the job up in Seattle, I didn't think it
was the right job for him. And I'm not going
to go into details as to why. But knowing you
as I do, and your personality and your intensity for
the game, and knowing him as I did, I didn't
think it was a good marriage. And obviously that proved
to be correct. What was the breakdown there? Oh? I
(15:19):
think the breakdown was line was mad David Bob Ward
and Mark Workington. I think it was more I was
mad they took my guys away and and they gave
the responsibility to a guy that never had the job
and I didn't know very well. And uh, And I
(15:40):
think it's probably my useful ego and attitude that probably.
You know, if if Wally would have taken that job
when I was fifty five, I think they probably would
have gotten along a lot better. I'm not surprised to
hear you say that you moved on and became the
head coach with the Milwaukee Bucks, that you've got a
great con track there, and you really did some good
(16:02):
things up there as well, because they had not made
the playoffs in seven seasons, and you helped rebuild a
struggling organization. And I'm just wondering, what does it take
to rebuild a team that either doesn't believe that they
can make the playoffs or doesn't have the talent, or
a combination of both. Well, we had many young players
and Rayon and Glenn Robinson and UH, and we would
(16:24):
get there and make the trade the next year and
get Sam to sell was. I thought it was a
great pick up. UH. I think the thing that makes
teams work from a coaching standpoint is a good point guard.
I gotta understands what you're trying to do and kind
of leads it in his personality without without without offending
name by UH. I thought in Milwaukee, you know, we
(16:50):
got to the conference finals and we had we played.
One year, we take in the Inner really well in
the first run. I thought we should beating them in
a five game series time. But the one year when
we got to the conference finals, it was probably as
that team probably had the least amount of talent that
I think ever got to the conference final, and we
(17:11):
were very close to winning it. You know, we missed
a jump shot in the game five. That big dog
makes the jump shot, we probably win that series and six. Yeah,
you take a look. You had Glenn Robinson, you had
Ray Allen, and I had Sam Cassell and I liked
all three of those players. What was the chemistry for them?
What made them work so well together? Well, what's you
think about is you go from Seattle, was your defensive
(17:33):
minded team, and then you go to Milwaukee and uh,
you know it's an offensive team. They can score, they
can score points. We had Tim Thomas off the bench.
I think we had one month, one month in uh
in In in my time in Endever when we had
four guys score four points in the same months, four
(17:53):
different guys. And that's how that's how powerful our offense was.
And so I had to change around, maybe from being
the defensive mind ap coached to the offensive endy court.
And I can't deny that Milwaukee might have been the
most excited city I've been in when we got to
(18:14):
the Eastern Conference Final. That city was really into that series.
I make in two thousand and one. Two thousand five
is a hallmark hear on on the personal front because
the Nuggets announced that you had prostate cancer. And then
later on, of course your son Cody, playing as a
starting point guard for Boise State um and has played
in the NBA and other leagues, he is told he
(18:36):
has thyroid cancer as well. Tell me a little bit
about how you reacted to hearing that you had cancer.
Cancer is difficult and as a word that you know,
I think if you don't study it, don't know about it,
it means someone might die. And you know, I can't
deny ever since I've had two cancers, you know, you know,
(18:57):
dying he is on the plate a little bit more
when when you that your body continues to produce and
cancers as But from the standpoint in the family, I
thought Kobe and I's journey into the world of living
with with a cancer situation and getting get treated and
moving on unfortunately prostrating five order or basically they take
(19:19):
them out and you can live well without them. So
both of them are very very little bit. But in
the same sense, when you get told you un cancer,
you're nervous, You're scared, especially for your son. And I
can't deny a few times I was screaming that God
on my backyard. But in the same sense, I think
(19:41):
as for a lot of cancer patients going through the
journey fighting in persevering and becoming and getting up and
up when you get knocked down when you have cancer,
and then the recovery once you go through that. I
think so many things, and I know Kobe and I
would would agree with a fish. You get stronger, you
(20:03):
get better, you get smarter because of cancer. And I
think that's the good thing about the journey that I
went through. And I think you have a greater appreciation
for smaller things. Am I correct about that, George, No question?
I mean I I gave up too many good things
in life to try to win a basketball game, and
(20:23):
I've learned to keep my life a little more balanced.
I still think that winning a game is pretty exciting
to do and a great challenge to be a coach.
In the NBA. But I think I need to I
need to give more time to my family, give more
time to me, and I think I learned to do
(20:43):
that the last four or five years of coaching. One
thing I've always asked as highly skilled athletes when they've
gone through things like you just talked about, is the
discipline that goes along with being an athlete or being
a coach, because I think that discipline in their life
doing what they do make them a little bit tougher
in things. Did you find that that discipline of being
a basketball player, player at the pro level and a
(21:06):
coach at the pro level helped you deal with some
of the challenges in dealing with this. I don't think
there's any question that the dedication and discipline and and
just to focus of the focus of knowing you can
do things and believing it. You know, if he's staying it,
it'll get better. Uh. You know, I think basketball is
(21:28):
are still a good teacher of life. I still think
it's a good teacher of a character and substance. And
I mean, we we all have the great stories that
come out of sports, and I still think basketball is
is a prime time teacher of life. You know, It's interesting.
When I watched your Nuggets team in two thousand four,
two thousand five and that start thirty two and eight,
(21:51):
I just thought they were going to be almost unbeatable.
Tell me about that string of games, Uh, the first
forty games of that season, that was amazing. I think
we actually had a pretty good schedule. But you know,
I think I inherited the team that was struggling from
a standpoint of making it work. And when I got here,
I got a tremendous commitment from them within. And then
(22:12):
the style, and of course, enthusiasm comes when you win games.
And when we started winning, we got we got confident, confident,
and we kept one thing, especially on our home court.
And I never thought to you two and a whatever happened,
but it was one of my best stretches. It was funny.
We played San Antonio in the first round, and we
(22:34):
did him the first day under Miller. I remember, I
had a great game for us and we beat him
and uh, and then they came back to being a
fourth straight after that. But it was it was a
great run. We was your best year coaching two thousand thirteen,
when you got the NBA Coach of the Year award,
you know what wrong? And I'll say that was the
most fun I hadn't coaching, and I think it was.
(22:57):
I think we squeezed the juice side of that one good.
We got the most out of that team. Uh And
I think most teams are that coached and it was
a joy. What what it doesn't happen all the time
is you know, success doesn't mean you're happy that year
we were successful. It was joyful and we were happy
knowing the pressures that coaches are under and what they
(23:19):
have to deal with with the media, with ownership, as
you talk about general managers and the players themselves. You know,
you use the word fun and I don't hear that
very often when I talked to NBA coaches. Has that
gone out of the game for a coach? I think so?
I think, you know, winning now is you know the
I think the money in the game makes the coach
(23:41):
field was more responsible and you know we we you know,
we used to win a game and go out afterwards
in the same town with the coaches that you just played,
talk trash, tell stories and enjoy life. Now with charges
you're on the next time, next city, and as soon
as you get on the airplane, what you're doing as
you're putting the video on and you're running the game.
(24:03):
You just playing and maybe one more before you get
to the next city. So the joy, it doesn't come
out as much as it used to, and that's not good. Somehow,
somewhere appreciate success. Everybody likes it, and if you feel it,
I think you do better in the future. We only
have a minute left, George. But when you think back
on your long career more than four decades and think
(24:25):
about the moment you've you've had and everything, what is
that one moment that is kind of emblazoned in George
Carl's mind. Well, you know, I think that the one
years is uh probably you know, the Utah Series winning
that knowing you're in, knowing the NBA Finals and played
Michael Jordan's that that that Sunday was a pretty special
(24:46):
Sunday in everybody's life. I think that that was on
that team. And I think the second thing is watching
my son play basketball and being to make him being
a pro and watching him play play the game very
well that I love and I want to stayed every
once a while. You know, he'd be the best player
(25:08):
on the court and that was a very producing, very
problem moment. George, I want to thank you. We've been
friends for a long time. I've respected you for as
long as I've known you, and of course you've had
a great career almost two thousand victories as well. And
thank you again for sharing your career in your life
with us. Uh and I look forward to our hooking
up again. Take care, my friend, Ron, You're the best.
(25:31):
I enjoyed it. Thank you very much, George, carl with
us and again, check out this book. It's a great read.
It will give you great insight into the NBA. Furious
George My forty years surviving NBA Diva's clueless GMS and
poor shot selection. I've never seen a title like that before.
But he was a very intense coach, but he also
a very successful coach as well. We continue across the
(25:54):
country and around the world on Sports Byeline. You have
been listening to Ron Bars Sports by Lie in USA
podcast on the eight Side Network.
Host
Ron Barr
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