August 19, 2024 • 38 mins
Ron dedicates his show to remembering the life and legacy of Billy Beane.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Ron Barr, and this is today's edition of
Ron Barr's Sports Byline USA podcast on the Eight Side Network.
In our continuing series, we Remember, We Remember Billy Bean,
who passed away recently. Bean played professional baseball nine years,
including six seasons in the majors with Detroit, the Dodgers,
and the Padres. He became the second Major leaguer to
(00:22):
come out as a gay man. The first was Glenn Burke,
a former Dodger. Bean later became a special advisor to
Commissioner Rob Manfred and MLB's senior Vice president for Diversity,
Equality and Inclusion. We began our conversation about gay athletes
with this question.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I believe if you're going to have social change, you
have to have open conversation and information. And of course,
back in nineteen forty seven, Major League Baseball broke the
color barrier with Jackie Robinson. And now there's an ongoing
conversation not only in baseball, but in sports overall about
welcoming a gay player into the locker room. Being former
(01:00):
outfielder who played six seasons in the major leagues with Detroit,
Los Angeles and San Diego joins US and he became
the second major leaguer to come out as a gay man.
He did that after he left baseball, and he also
wrote a very interesting book called Going the Other Way
Lessons from a Life in and out of Major League Baseball. Billy,
the last time we talked it was when the book
(01:21):
came out. That was ten years ago. Over that decade,
what have you seen as far as the conversation and
also how people feel about this issue.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Well, it's amazing to me how fast that ten years
has gone by. First of all, I've been out there.
It changed the book, you know, that whole experience changed
my life where I had really no understanding or awareness
or real connection you know prior to that, maybe a
little bit prior to that with the gay and lesbian community.
(01:54):
And I've learned so much, you know, over that time.
But I guess, you know, from my opinion, what I see,
obviously is a world where the issue is becoming closer
and closer to you know, each and every household, whether
they've invited that conversation or not, because most so many
people have. I felt that the time was right and
(02:18):
they had the courage to step forward and you know,
live openly and honestly and basically stop hiding. And what
frustrates me in you know, in the big picture, I
think like in a lot of people's minds is that,
you know, it's still an environment where really the only
news that we hear on the major league level about
(02:39):
gays and lesbians or gay men specifically in sports is
that a lot of people they they they jumped to
the one or two comments of people say that they
wouldn't be comfortable with it, and you know what, what's
what is encouraging is you know, this sort of athlete
ally environment or the fact that you know, players on
(03:01):
many teams are simply they're not afraid to say, hey,
I'm I'm supportive of who and whatever my teammate might
be as long as he's a solid teammate and team
player or you know what have you. So that part
of it, I see tremendous progress, tremendous growth. I've spoken,
I've been very fortunate to speak at many universities over
(03:23):
the years as an author, sharing my you know, my
experience in the closet while I played, and seeing young kids' attitudes.
You know, it's it's like the idea of where you know,
the idea of gay marriage now, which is completely separate
from you know, gays and sports. But whereas that was
an unheard of, you know issue, you know, maybe five
(03:43):
or six years ago, now it seems like eighty percent
of people under the age of thirty are supportive of it.
So it there is there is. The world's getting smaller,
I guess. But what's frustrating is that there is truly
an environment that keeps athletes from coming forward. And so
I think it's a legitimate situation and the fact that
(04:04):
you're bringing this discussion in front of people is great
because we really need to let people know that. I mean, obviously,
there are many athletes who are competing in the highest
levels of male team sports, but it just doesn't seem
to be the right environment yet for someone to come
out while they're an active player.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Is there a correlation between Jackie Robinson breaking the color
barrier back in nineteen forty seven and also with people
with sexual orientation that's different from what many considered to
be the norm and breaking that barrier as well, Billy.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
I think, first of all, I think we're, you know,
obviously in a different time and place. But the one thing,
no matter how racist or prejudiced, or hateful people were
at that time or still could be against, you know,
African Americans or people of any a diverse color. Is
(05:02):
that no one could accuse Jackie Robinson of choosing to
be black. You know, he was an African American man.
He was an amazing athlete, one of the greatest in
the history of our country. But I think the reason
I bring that up is that a lot of people
still think gays and lesbians choose their sexuality, and so
(05:24):
you can't see it on a person from the exterior.
So the people who either naive or refuse to open
their heart and minds, you know, until they have someone
near them and their family or a loved one or
a son or a daughter where they truly can see
it from the inception of is that people don't at
(05:47):
least I believe with all my heart, people don't choose
their sexuality. It just it's the way it is, and
it's the way. Yours is yours, and my parents is theirs,
and mine is mine. And so I think a lot
of people are ready to embrace and and would probably
say for the game lesbian community that first athlete would
(06:07):
be the Jackie Robinson. For us, I think Jackie Robinson's
accomplishment is at a level that brought the world closer
together possibly you know what I mean. He was so
the pressure that mounted, the time, the place, the where
it was. I hope that the first male athlete in
(06:31):
gay or gay male that would come out, who is
you know, playing actively in major league team sports, is
ultimately revered in that way because it is going to
be a brave man. I have to say, it's going
to be an amazing accomplishment and and you know, to
not take away from his athletic ability. That's the I
(06:52):
think the one thing in my mind I wrote about
that that really seems to keep a player from making
that decision is that to be identified immediately as a
gay person instead of as an athlete. It was a
huge transition for me. I was not quite prepared for
(07:15):
the way people and I will always be known as
a gay baseball player now for the rest of my life.
And I was out of baseball, so I was no hero,
and I didn't take on that stress or that pressure.
I wish now that I would have been strong enough
to share with my family and not stay in the
closet and hide everything, and been strong enough to be
(07:37):
that guy. Would it would It would mean the world
to me, and I would be it would have helped
me let go. I think forgive of the way that
I that I left baseball ran away, you know, just
feeling that after all those years of hiding and my pet,
my partner passed away, I just could not keep the
secret without my head exploding, you know what I mean.
It was just living that double life was tough.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
So I was just going to ask you about the
stigmas that are associated with a person who is gay.
Has that lessened considerably over the last decade? And I
say that because I remember when Magic Johnson came out
admitting that he was HIV positive, and for a while
everybody in basketball said, well, gee, you know, can we
catch it on the floor? What if his sweat drips
(08:22):
on us? And everything else? And it seems like we're
a little bit more enlightened and those things are not issues.
Has the stigma in gay athletes changed as well?
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Well? I think absolutely the stigma has changed for people
who are HIV positive, and especially people who are gay
lesbian in regular society. I mean, I know, I mean,
now you see, you know, the younger generation after me,
where people are completely comfortable with what that was My problem.
(08:54):
I wasn't. I was not comfortable being gay while I
was a player. It wasn't that I was in it,
and you know, sharing the news or being sexually active
or bragging to people. I was trying to suppress and
make something go away because it was so it was
so foreign to me in the world that I'm accustomed to.
But I think now, I do think if you are
(09:17):
a gay male who's an athlete in big league sports,
there is many ways for that person to actually have
relationships of substance and feel support group with people who
will honor you know that he is trying to further
his career or stay alive or hang on or whatever
(09:37):
it is. You know, it's a very it's a very
difficult argument to explain because there's so many people in
our community. They're like, can't why don't they just do it?
They're they're so successful and there they would change the world.
But the truth is is most athletes careers are extremely short,
and you can express that to your listeners. You know
that the fear of it ending is paramount ninety five
(10:01):
percent of every athlete's mind, and so bringing on something
of this magnitude unless you're a truly established star or
protected financially in a contract, and you know, ready to
change the dynamic of the news coverage of your team.
So it's a big decision, you know, And I've heard
(10:24):
many people say, you know, I wouldn't want to be
so selfish as to change, you know, the attention of
my team. You know what I mean, It would because
it is news, and you know it will exponentially decrease
as more players come forward. But right now it's a story.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
We'll continue remembering the life and career of Billy Bean
when we continue Sports Byline.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
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Speaker 1 (11:49):
You're listening to Ron Bars Sports Byline USA podcast.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Before the Break, Billy I posed the question about is
the landscape different for the gay female athlete as compared
to the gay male athlete? Your thoughts on that, Well, I.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Think it's proven that it is. In a way. We've
had some you know, amazing wonderful role models for the
female athlete, you know, lesbian community with Martina and about Tolova,
Billy Jing King, Cheryl Swoops, came out while she was playing.
But I don't. I don't think it's just proven that
(12:27):
the fans don't seem to be as caught up in
that first person. Maybe because Martina and Billy Jean King
were such, you know, so far ahead of the curve
and so brave and the what they had to persevere
because they basically were both outed, you know and so
(12:49):
but handled it beautifully and have become you know, amazing
role models for all athletes, man and women. So I
don't know why that is per se. I just think
that what has you know, the male team sport, I
know in baseball, and the idea of people are obsessed with,
you know, the whole locker room environment or what visualizing
(13:12):
one of their you know, their heroes living with a
man instead of a you know, a perfect looking cheerleader
wife or whatever. That fantasy is that a lot of
sports fans think every athlete lives.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
By Let me let me offer you an observation on
my part as a sportscaster.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I have always.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Found that the women's teams in basketball, let's say, they
tend to be more team oriented instead of individual oriented.
So therefore you don't have the macho egotism with the
women's sports that make them more accepting of a player
on a human level than you might have in the
male sports.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I agree with that to to an extent. I also
think that you you have. I just think the certainly
the competitive nature, and there has been some some homophobia
and then around like college women's basketball with coaches and
UH recruiting, you know, accusations that coaches might be lesbian
and not wanting their daughters to go play for someone,
(14:14):
you know there if their daughters were heterosexual or their
parents were concerned, you know, like really you know, backward
type you know, mentality, And I don't know. And they've
obviously worked through that and and and it seems like
you know that that sport is flourishing, but the idea
of what men and young men and boys UH are
(14:38):
dealing with on the same level, I don't. I don't know.
I'm certainly you know you have the egotistical but in
my my experience, it seemed like the superstars. I got
to play, you know, with Tony Gwinn for almost three years.
I played with Kirk Gibson in Detroit. I played with
some you know, incredibly strong personalities, and it seemed to
(14:59):
me that the those guys were not so concerned about
what was going on around you know what I mean,
they were more secure in themselves. I think what more
players are going to be worried about is front office.
I'm sure Rick Welts would would be a wonderful person
to ask this question, you know, obviously with him being
(15:19):
in the front office, but the idea of what he
understands the players fears of, you know, wanting you know,
in team sports, you have to have people want you
on the team. And so if that person is not
completely comfortable with the idea of that type of diversity,
it would it would lend for a player to keep
their mouth closed and just hold on to their secret
(15:40):
until they were one hundred percent sure that it would
not affect their livelihood or their or their status on the.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Team, Billy. As you know a number of athletes have
come out in the National Football League. Brendon Ayando, Scott Fajita,
and also Chris Kleoey have come out in support of,
you know, equality for everybody when it comes to sexual orientation.
And I was very interested in a quote coming from
aen bdeo. He said, honestly, I think it will happen
(16:09):
in baseball sooner than in football or basketball. The reason
I say that is because I think there is less
of a connection to religion in baseball. The religious roots
are a lot deeper in basketball and football. And I
could be wrong, but I just felt that there were
a bit more open minded And what I found surprising
about that having been around baseball, you have your God squads,
(16:31):
those ultra religious players. Is he on the mark with
that comment? And what am I missing here?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Well, I have just recently gotten acquainted with Brennan, who's
you know, less starters, just to applaud his courage and
bravery and trying to bring the discussion to the masses
and athletes, and I think he has an amazing career
ahead of him after pro football, and as a member
of the gay Lisbon community, to what he's done, I
(17:03):
have to say I would I would say that the
religious environment is much stronger in baseball, especially than basketball.
And maybe maybe I'm missing something, but I know for
what I thought as eleven years as professional that the
uh there is there's a divide right down the middle
of you know, the like you said, the God squad
(17:25):
people that are very, very serious about religion. Some feel,
you know, that the only reason that they're you know,
been blessed with the abilities because of God blessing them specifically.
And and so there there's just a there's a very
huge cultural divide in baseball because it comes it comes
from a very broad market. You have your Asian players,
(17:47):
now you have your Southern players, you have your African
American American players, you have your Latino players, you have
your Afro Latino players. I mean, there's just it's a multitude.
You and then you have you know, your Middle America
kids who grow up, you know, with their parents, you know,
wanting them to be baseball players. So I think there's
(18:07):
much more diversity. I think basketball is much more. You know,
if you look across the teams, you see a lot
more similarities in race and background and culture. So I
I guess I would say I don't agree with him,
you know, exactly on that that comment. But I also
think that the pressure in the NFL, the toughness that
(18:30):
part having to coexist with coaches and a mindset ideology,
it's it would not be easy. And I think baseball
is is in an individual sport played by a group
of people. And if you are amazing, you know, it's
it's it's the possibility that a player could exist in
(18:51):
that In that light, I think, I don't know, there's
just so many variables. I've played it over my head
so many times around it and I wonder, to me,
I think the easiest environment would be for just a
great basketball player because they can you can control the
game in a way that's different from football and baseball.
You know, baseball there's a lot of time you stand around.
(19:12):
You only get a couple opportunities to succeed as a hitter,
a knight, and basketball is something where if you're an
amazing athlete, it's moving around as fast. There's not a
lot It's more of an instinctual game. And I don't
think players have time to think about who and what
you know is going on in the personalize of a player.
(19:32):
So that's always been my opinion.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly. And if you think
about Charles Barkley and what he said, he said he
wouldn't care whether the guy was gay or not, only
care whether he can shoot, rebound and run the floor.
And I think also another factor, just on what you
touched on, you got a twenty five man roster in
Major League baseball. You've got a forty five man roster
in football, and yet you've got what thirteen players in
(19:55):
the NBA, so you have smaller squads. It's a more
controllable let me share with you. Also another comment that
was made by Brandon Morrow, and I think he's right
on the mark. He says, I think being openly gay
as a ballplayer would be extremely difficult because of the culture.
He said, not that I think that there's a lot
of anti gay sentiment around. It's just that the mass
(20:16):
heel and feel in the clubhouse. And you're right about that,
not only from you know, as you said, people that
come from the South, but Hispanic ballplayers where that is
a big taboo with them, and so they've been conditioned
for a long period of time and that means that
they've got to, you know, change everything that they had known.
And that's why I think it's also going to be difficult.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Well, it doesn't. You don't become a major league athlete overnight.
You start very young, and what you just said is
you're conditioned. I was programmed as an athlete as a
young kid, like I did not even think about what
a gay person was or I'd never realized if I
had met one or not until I think I was
(20:58):
in college. And and you know, I did not come
out until I was at least even to myself, until
I was about twenty seven, and I had been in
baseball for almost five years at the big league level,
back and forth to tripa A. But it's exactly that
you're not. It's not like it's just it's one of
(21:19):
those things. It's an evolution, it's a you know, an
emotional process and the idea that you know, you dedicate
your life to something. And you know, I loved being
a baseball player, and I think of myself as a
baseball player who's just not playing baseball anymore because I'm
too old. But I don't think of myself as a
gay person before that, even though most people would label
(21:40):
me that because they know that I've opened up about
my personal life. So I just think that that's where
the process takes a while for these athletes. A lot
of kids identify very young with their sexuality, which is
a whole nother journey that is difficult. It's more difficult
for parents these days. I think my generation hid the
(22:01):
truth much more easy because there was no Internet for
us when we were kids. There was no you know,
this whole ability to have relationships in secrecy. With an anonymity,
it harbors courage to reach out and talk to people
and you you know, And that's why I think kids
are identifying their sexuality long before they have sex.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Bean lost his partner, Sam, who died of a ruptured pancreas.
Bean was with him at the hospital all night, but
because he was still in the closet, couldn't request to
leave from the team after he first found Sam in distress.
He didn't even attend Sam's funeral for fear of being outed.
We'll continue remembering Billy Bean when we continue with Sports Byline.
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Speaker 1 (23:47):
You're listening to Ronbar's Sports Byline USA podcast.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Billy Bean has joined us on Sports Byline. You know, Billy,
I really think that communication is the key, and yet
you've touched on something. It's one thing for anybody who's
not a professional athlete to talk about this. They can
be rational, but when it's your livelihood, and you have
to go through all the things you're going to go
through if you come out as an active professional athlete
(24:13):
and you happen to be gay as well. So when
you balance those two things out, what type of person
is it going to take, what type of support is
it going to take, and what type of attitude from
fans and the media is it going to take to
make this transition.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, just like the timing of this interview is so
interesting because I think a lot of people will see
in this movie forty two Jackie Robinson was subjected to
the type of personality it takes to want to please
the masses, even at your own deficit. In a way,
I think it's going to take someone who is in
(24:54):
a very supportive home environment, and I just think that
he's going to have to be extremely secure in with
himself and it's going to be a point where he
I mean, I've seen people walk away from baseball because
it didn't make them happy, and I was in shock
(25:17):
by it. You know, when I was a young player
that I had a couple of players in the minor
leagues with the Tigers that just did not like how
hard it was and how much pressure you know, in
a way that pro sports it's it's not a family environment.
You know, behind the scenes, it's tough. It's very tough.
So I think the person that is the guy that
(25:38):
does this, In my mind, it's always been someone who
has has already achieved success and is feeling like all
the things in his life that are starting to matter.
His career is a you know, probably still a majority,
you know, the major part of that, but the choices
are getting costly, and it's time that he's you know,
(26:03):
willing to fight for his family, let's say, or something
in that way. And I'm hopeful that they have the
strength and the character that they can put up with
the initial you know, type of environment. You're going to
have people that are unhappy with any person that steps
forward with any kind of issue, whether it's sexuality or
(26:24):
political beliefs or whatever it is. You know, you can't
please everybody, and that part most athletes, they want to
please people. That's that's our nature, you know. We we
feel like life is good when people are cheering for us,
and you know, life is bad when they boo you
or tell you that you are terrible or you suck
because you struck out or dropped the ball or balling
(26:45):
through your legs or whatever. Every player has been subjected
to that, and it's it's just our value system. And
so I think there's just a you know, it's it's
a common sense argument in the in the minds of
every player that's dealing with this reality. But I have
to say, and I've written many articles, you know, when
this topic comes up, that when that guy does that,
(27:06):
I'm going to be I'm going to get on a
plane and I'm going to go sit in the front
row and I'm gonna wear his jersey and just you know,
I'll be one person who's cheering formed just because I'll
be proud of the courage and the desire to bring
two worlds a little bit closer.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Is it going to be important for that athlete to
be a highly productive athlete, because then it makes it
a little bit easier for management to support the decision
once that it's known that the athlete is gay. And
you know, I think about other examples in the past,
and if you don't have that support for management, and
think about management and baseball for just a second. Billy
(27:42):
back in the nineties, when they buried their heads in
the sand about performance enhancing drugs.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and so not like I said, every player,
there's there's there's one or two players on every team
maximum that that management cares about emotionally like in a
way that I mean, it's all performance based ron and
it's all about living up to the investment. And you know,
(28:08):
you see players that get these long term deals and
you know, the pressures off and they sometimes they their
their play goes away or a little bit or they
you know, they're they're not if they have an injury,
they're not afraid to sit out for a few weeks.
This player is going to be scrutinized night and day
for a while. And so he it's it's definitely he's
(28:30):
It would be so great if he has a body
of work behind him that speaks to his talent level,
where it would be just you know, an obvious decision
that a team is getting rid of the distraction. But
if he came out and he was no longer part
of the team next year, But the truth is is,
you know, I mean, I remember when I this conversation
(28:51):
first came up, the Yankees won through a four World
Series in a row. In the early part of the
decade in two thousand to two thousand and four, whatever
they or till two thousands after they won the World
Series in two thousand four years in a row, they
they they got rid of nine players off their twenty
five man roster. You know what I mean, It's like
(29:13):
they were world champions. There's no guarantee, you know, the fit,
the financial structure, dealing with salary structures, changes in management,
any kind of thing, you know, age, whatever it is,
there's you're bringing. You're bringing a little bit more of
a of a magnifying glass onto your performance if there
(29:38):
already isn't enough.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
You know, there's another aspect of this. And you know
that those that were uncomfortable with having gays on the
team or in the locker room for a period of time,
they use the argument about having someone gay in the
locker room when you're showering every everything, and piece by piece,
these arguments have been you know, done away with. Brandon McCarthy,
(30:00):
the pitcher, says that the argument that an openly gay
player could make teammates uncomfortable in the clubhouse environment is silly.
His quote is, if you played this game for a
number of years, you've probably had a few gay teammates,
and you've and have you ever been accosted in the
shower yet, it's probably not going to happen if somebody
comes out it happened. No, it's not gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
It happened because you don't make it to the major
leagues in baseball, where there's seven hundred jobs out of
six billion people in the world by screwing around in
the shower, trying to, you know, play around with someone
who's could be married, have kids. Is not interest. It's
not it's an office space. And it's just like saying
(30:43):
that every man in this country is not unable to
control himself around a female in the workplace. It's it's ludicrous,
it's disrespectful. I've said for years that gay and lesbian
athletes have had to be ten times more disciplined than
heterosexual athletes because of those of the possibility of that
you I was a player for over ten years. I
(31:05):
roomed with Brad Osmas for a couple of years. None
of these guys knew one thing about my personal life,
you know. And also in the big leagues, people are
there eight hours a day. There's one or two guys
in shower at a time. It's so stupid. It's people
they have a fantasy about this. You know, everybody's soaping
(31:26):
up and singing in the shower like in the thirties
or something. It's it's such a business environment. You know,
there's agents everywhere, there's reporters everywhere, there's trainers, there's you know,
it's there is nothing going on in the mind of
any player except how do I improve and how do
I keep myself on this team? And how do I
(31:46):
get on the field, get my five hundred at bats
or you know, fifteen innings, you know, as a reliever
of a month or whatever whatever there it is to
keep their job. It's just it makes me nut because
you know, yes, it's like saying that, you know, how
many how many players if a female reporter like they
(32:09):
would be unable to contain themselves. They joke about this
and all these you know, all these shows and stuff.
But you know it's a professional environment.
Speaker 6 (32:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Los Angeles Angeles pitcher CJ. Wilson had a great quote.
He said, if the guy's good, he's good. If there's
a girl who could throw one hundred miles per hour
and punch everybody out, she would get to play too.
We don't care. And you know what, it was interesting.
I was recently with a friend of mine who's a
four star general, and I said to him, I said,
what's been the reaction to the decision to allow gays
(32:41):
to be in the military. He said, absolutely none. And
I think that's where we are with sports today, except
for those that are going to hold on to old ideas.
Are you optimistic that what would you say one year,
two years, three years that we will And and it
was like Jackie, not Jackie Robinson, but Frank Robinson when
he became the first black manager with the Cleveland Indians.
(33:02):
After that it became, you know, not an issue right right.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
I mean, when you're dealing with the sensitive nature of sexuality,
especially between men, it's it's it's it's a little bit
of an uncharted territory.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
The the racial uh progression that we've had with people
like Frank Robinson and you know, Jackie Robinson. Obviously, those
are milestone moments in history. And it's true. I think
we as you know, we we will find a way
for it to happen. But you know, you need players
(33:37):
like CJ. Wilson in that where they just diffuse it.
It's like, get over it. It's no big deal. You
know who, Who's who is pushing this sort of this
the excitement you know, meter on this. It's it's about
baseball players. The guy wouldn't be there in the first place.
If he wasn't a great athlete and a tremendous baseball player,
he would not have found his way up to the
(33:58):
big leagues. There's no favor. Your errands can't buy you
a ticket there. It's you got to earn it, and
you earn it by playing years and years and years
of baseball. I mean thousands of games. I played winter
ball five years in a row, from eighty seven to
ninety two, I mean basically sixty months without stopping, you
(34:19):
know what I mean. There wasn't time for me to
have a personal life. It just I wanted to be
a big leaguer. That's all I ever wanted, you know,
And unfortunately, you know, circumstances of you know, meeting somebody
and then dying suddenly. It was a blow emotionally, and
I didn't share it with someone. And that's that's when
(34:40):
I started to question, I can't pull this in anymore.
And I love baseball I think too much, so I
left it as opposed to challenge it with do I
still belong here? And that was a mistake made a
long time ago and it was a different era. But
it's the reason I have always stayed available. And I
try to be a big, you know, role model to
(35:03):
the game lesbian community, specially the athletic one, and do
the right thing and and share the story and inspire
kids never to believe that they, you know, don't belong somewhere.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
We only have about three minutes left, and I want
to ask you also about another aspect because you and
I talked about this when the book came out Going
the Other Way Lessons from a Life in and out
of Major League Baseball, about some of the humor, some
of the words used that can be very, very hurtful.
You talked about Tommy Lesorda with the Dodgers and everything,
where they will use words that are hateful to people
(35:37):
that are gay. Is that going to change and how
do you deal with that in this transition to having
a gay player on your team.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
I think I think it has definitely changed already. I
think that baseball has really stepped up, and you know,
even added same sex language, and like the collective bargaining
agreement for pension benefits and even though nobody has has
you know, asked for for those type of things because
(36:07):
you know it's one of those things. But I think
where in my book I used to write about Tommy Lesorda,
you know, he had colorful language every second of the
day regardless. But I do think, I mean, obviously I'm
not in a big league clubhouse right now, but I
know that from my friendships with guys who have just
left the game and played for many years, that it
(36:30):
doesn't play. I mean there's certain guys like you said
the cultural I mean Escobar from the Toronto Blue Jays
had a little incident last year where Baseball, you know,
his own team suspended them for a few days. That
would never have happened in two thousand and three.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And all you have to do is take a look
at the National Football League with with what Chris Kulliber,
the forty nine Ers quarterback, did and how quickly they
jumped on him, both the team and the league as well.
And then you think about Kobe Bryant. He used a
slur and and he got fined big for that. So
I think there's an awareness of it that is going
to help make this transition happen. And taking angry words
(37:07):
and slings and arrows that an athlete has to deal with.
That doesn't mean you're not going to hear it from fans.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
But but you know what I'm saying, I think I
think Kobe I'm a huge you know, La Lakers guy,
and I was I remember that moment. But I think
someone like Kobe Bryant has understood how important what he
says is to so many kids, and he's been amazing
trying to first of all, take responsibility for a heated moment.
(37:33):
I think every athlete has uttered that word at one
time or another, and he wasn't. You know, it was
just one of those things that you're conditioned over years
and years and years. But you know, Chris Clemens, another
guy on Seahawks, we see it still. I think the
fact that we're seeing those moments and like Culver's in
the Super Bowl, Chris Culvert, is that it is starting
(37:56):
to be marginalized now and those are those are the
exception rather than the rule. It's no different than using
what Jackie Robinson was probably called in the newspaper, you know,
just free flowingly by people in the media. You know
what I mean. In the way that the world changes,
we need to demand that that language, you know, be halted.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
In his role with Major League Baseball, Billy Bean worked
to advance a quality for all players, coaches, managers, umpires, employees,
and stakeholders throughout baseball to ensure an equitable, inclusive, and
supportive workplace for everyone. He was instrumental in the development
of MLB's bullying prevention education programming and the game's support
(38:41):
of Spirit Day. Billy Bean Gone but never forgotten On
Sports Byline. You have been listening to Ron Barr's Sports
Byline USA podcast on the eight Side Network
Hi, I'm Ron Barr, and this is today's edition of
Ron Barr's Sports Byline USA podcast on the Eight Side Network.
In our continuing series, we Remember, We Remember Billy Bean,
who passed away recently. Bean played professional baseball nine years,
including six seasons in the majors with Detroit, the Dodgers,
and the Padres. He became the second Major leaguer to
(00:22):
come out as a gay man. The first was Glenn Burke,
a former Dodger. Bean later became a special advisor to
Commissioner Rob Manfred and MLB's senior Vice president for Diversity,
Equality and Inclusion. We began our conversation about gay athletes
with this question.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I believe if you're going to have social change, you
have to have open conversation and information. And of course,
back in nineteen forty seven, Major League Baseball broke the
color barrier with Jackie Robinson. And now there's an ongoing
conversation not only in baseball, but in sports overall about
welcoming a gay player into the locker room. Being former
(01:00):
outfielder who played six seasons in the major leagues with Detroit,
Los Angeles and San Diego joins US and he became
the second major leaguer to come out as a gay man.
He did that after he left baseball, and he also
wrote a very interesting book called Going the Other Way
Lessons from a Life in and out of Major League Baseball. Billy,
the last time we talked it was when the book
(01:21):
came out. That was ten years ago. Over that decade,
what have you seen as far as the conversation and
also how people feel about this issue.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Well, it's amazing to me how fast that ten years
has gone by. First of all, I've been out there.
It changed the book, you know, that whole experience changed
my life where I had really no understanding or awareness
or real connection you know prior to that, maybe a
little bit prior to that with the gay and lesbian community.
(01:54):
And I've learned so much, you know, over that time.
But I guess, you know, from my opinion, what I see,
obviously is a world where the issue is becoming closer
and closer to you know, each and every household, whether
they've invited that conversation or not, because most so many
people have. I felt that the time was right and
(02:18):
they had the courage to step forward and you know,
live openly and honestly and basically stop hiding. And what
frustrates me in you know, in the big picture, I
think like in a lot of people's minds is that,
you know, it's still an environment where really the only
news that we hear on the major league level about
(02:39):
gays and lesbians or gay men specifically in sports is
that a lot of people they they they jumped to
the one or two comments of people say that they
wouldn't be comfortable with it, and you know what, what's
what is encouraging is you know, this sort of athlete
ally environment or the fact that you know, players on
(03:01):
many teams are simply they're not afraid to say, hey,
I'm I'm supportive of who and whatever my teammate might
be as long as he's a solid teammate and team
player or you know what have you. So that part
of it, I see tremendous progress, tremendous growth. I've spoken,
I've been very fortunate to speak at many universities over
(03:23):
the years as an author, sharing my you know, my
experience in the closet while I played, and seeing young kids' attitudes.
You know, it's it's like the idea of where you know,
the idea of gay marriage now, which is completely separate
from you know, gays and sports. But whereas that was
an unheard of, you know issue, you know, maybe five
(03:43):
or six years ago, now it seems like eighty percent
of people under the age of thirty are supportive of it.
So it there is there is. The world's getting smaller,
I guess. But what's frustrating is that there is truly
an environment that keeps athletes from coming forward. And so
I think it's a legitimate situation and the fact that
(04:04):
you're bringing this discussion in front of people is great
because we really need to let people know that. I mean, obviously,
there are many athletes who are competing in the highest
levels of male team sports, but it just doesn't seem
to be the right environment yet for someone to come
out while they're an active player.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Is there a correlation between Jackie Robinson breaking the color
barrier back in nineteen forty seven and also with people
with sexual orientation that's different from what many considered to
be the norm and breaking that barrier as well, Billy.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
I think, first of all, I think we're, you know,
obviously in a different time and place. But the one thing,
no matter how racist or prejudiced, or hateful people were
at that time or still could be against, you know,
African Americans or people of any a diverse color. Is
(05:02):
that no one could accuse Jackie Robinson of choosing to
be black. You know, he was an African American man.
He was an amazing athlete, one of the greatest in
the history of our country. But I think the reason
I bring that up is that a lot of people
still think gays and lesbians choose their sexuality, and so
(05:24):
you can't see it on a person from the exterior.
So the people who either naive or refuse to open
their heart and minds, you know, until they have someone
near them and their family or a loved one or
a son or a daughter where they truly can see
it from the inception of is that people don't at
(05:47):
least I believe with all my heart, people don't choose
their sexuality. It just it's the way it is, and
it's the way. Yours is yours, and my parents is theirs,
and mine is mine. And so I think a lot
of people are ready to embrace and and would probably
say for the game lesbian community that first athlete would
(06:07):
be the Jackie Robinson. For us, I think Jackie Robinson's
accomplishment is at a level that brought the world closer
together possibly you know what I mean. He was so
the pressure that mounted, the time, the place, the where
it was. I hope that the first male athlete in
(06:31):
gay or gay male that would come out, who is
you know, playing actively in major league team sports, is
ultimately revered in that way because it is going to
be a brave man. I have to say, it's going
to be an amazing accomplishment and and you know, to
not take away from his athletic ability. That's the I
(06:52):
think the one thing in my mind I wrote about
that that really seems to keep a player from making
that decision is that to be identified immediately as a
gay person instead of as an athlete. It was a
huge transition for me. I was not quite prepared for
(07:15):
the way people and I will always be known as
a gay baseball player now for the rest of my life.
And I was out of baseball, so I was no hero,
and I didn't take on that stress or that pressure.
I wish now that I would have been strong enough
to share with my family and not stay in the
closet and hide everything, and been strong enough to be
(07:37):
that guy. Would it would It would mean the world
to me, and I would be it would have helped
me let go. I think forgive of the way that
I that I left baseball ran away, you know, just
feeling that after all those years of hiding and my pet,
my partner passed away, I just could not keep the
secret without my head exploding, you know what I mean.
It was just living that double life was tough.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
So I was just going to ask you about the
stigmas that are associated with a person who is gay.
Has that lessened considerably over the last decade? And I
say that because I remember when Magic Johnson came out
admitting that he was HIV positive, and for a while
everybody in basketball said, well, gee, you know, can we
catch it on the floor? What if his sweat drips
(08:22):
on us? And everything else? And it seems like we're
a little bit more enlightened and those things are not issues.
Has the stigma in gay athletes changed as well?
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Well? I think absolutely the stigma has changed for people
who are HIV positive, and especially people who are gay
lesbian in regular society. I mean, I know, I mean,
now you see, you know, the younger generation after me,
where people are completely comfortable with what that was My problem.
(08:54):
I wasn't. I was not comfortable being gay while I
was a player. It wasn't that I was in it,
and you know, sharing the news or being sexually active
or bragging to people. I was trying to suppress and
make something go away because it was so it was
so foreign to me in the world that I'm accustomed to.
But I think now, I do think if you are
(09:17):
a gay male who's an athlete in big league sports,
there is many ways for that person to actually have
relationships of substance and feel support group with people who
will honor you know that he is trying to further
his career or stay alive or hang on or whatever
(09:37):
it is. You know, it's a very it's a very
difficult argument to explain because there's so many people in
our community. They're like, can't why don't they just do it?
They're they're so successful and there they would change the world.
But the truth is is most athletes careers are extremely short,
and you can express that to your listeners. You know
that the fear of it ending is paramount ninety five
(10:01):
percent of every athlete's mind, and so bringing on something
of this magnitude unless you're a truly established star or
protected financially in a contract, and you know, ready to
change the dynamic of the news coverage of your team.
So it's a big decision, you know, And I've heard
(10:24):
many people say, you know, I wouldn't want to be
so selfish as to change, you know, the attention of
my team. You know what I mean, It would because
it is news, and you know it will exponentially decrease
as more players come forward. But right now it's a story.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
We'll continue remembering the life and career of Billy Bean
when we continue Sports Byline.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
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Speaker 1 (11:49):
You're listening to Ron Bars Sports Byline USA podcast.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Before the Break, Billy I posed the question about is
the landscape different for the gay female athlete as compared
to the gay male athlete? Your thoughts on that, Well, I.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Think it's proven that it is. In a way. We've
had some you know, amazing wonderful role models for the
female athlete, you know, lesbian community with Martina and about Tolova,
Billy Jing King, Cheryl Swoops, came out while she was playing.
But I don't. I don't think it's just proven that
(12:27):
the fans don't seem to be as caught up in
that first person. Maybe because Martina and Billy Jean King
were such, you know, so far ahead of the curve
and so brave and the what they had to persevere
because they basically were both outed, you know and so
(12:49):
but handled it beautifully and have become you know, amazing
role models for all athletes, man and women. So I
don't know why that is per se. I just think
that what has you know, the male team sport, I
know in baseball, and the idea of people are obsessed with,
you know, the whole locker room environment or what visualizing
(13:12):
one of their you know, their heroes living with a
man instead of a you know, a perfect looking cheerleader
wife or whatever. That fantasy is that a lot of
sports fans think every athlete lives.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
By Let me let me offer you an observation on
my part as a sportscaster.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I have always.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Found that the women's teams in basketball, let's say, they
tend to be more team oriented instead of individual oriented.
So therefore you don't have the macho egotism with the
women's sports that make them more accepting of a player
on a human level than you might have in the
male sports.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I agree with that to to an extent. I also
think that you you have. I just think the certainly
the competitive nature, and there has been some some homophobia
and then around like college women's basketball with coaches and
UH recruiting, you know, accusations that coaches might be lesbian
and not wanting their daughters to go play for someone,
(14:14):
you know there if their daughters were heterosexual or their
parents were concerned, you know, like really you know, backward
type you know, mentality, And I don't know. And they've
obviously worked through that and and and it seems like
you know that that sport is flourishing, but the idea
of what men and young men and boys UH are
(14:38):
dealing with on the same level, I don't. I don't know.
I'm certainly you know you have the egotistical but in
my my experience, it seemed like the superstars. I got
to play, you know, with Tony Gwinn for almost three years.
I played with Kirk Gibson in Detroit. I played with
some you know, incredibly strong personalities, and it seemed to
(14:59):
me that the those guys were not so concerned about
what was going on around you know what I mean,
they were more secure in themselves. I think what more
players are going to be worried about is front office.
I'm sure Rick Welts would would be a wonderful person
to ask this question, you know, obviously with him being
(15:19):
in the front office, but the idea of what he
understands the players fears of, you know, wanting you know,
in team sports, you have to have people want you
on the team. And so if that person is not
completely comfortable with the idea of that type of diversity,
it would it would lend for a player to keep
their mouth closed and just hold on to their secret
(15:40):
until they were one hundred percent sure that it would
not affect their livelihood or their or their status on the.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Team, Billy. As you know a number of athletes have
come out in the National Football League. Brendon Ayando, Scott Fajita,
and also Chris Kleoey have come out in support of,
you know, equality for everybody when it comes to sexual orientation.
And I was very interested in a quote coming from
aen bdeo. He said, honestly, I think it will happen
(16:09):
in baseball sooner than in football or basketball. The reason
I say that is because I think there is less
of a connection to religion in baseball. The religious roots
are a lot deeper in basketball and football. And I
could be wrong, but I just felt that there were
a bit more open minded And what I found surprising
about that having been around baseball, you have your God squads,
(16:31):
those ultra religious players. Is he on the mark with
that comment? And what am I missing here?
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Well, I have just recently gotten acquainted with Brennan, who's
you know, less starters, just to applaud his courage and
bravery and trying to bring the discussion to the masses
and athletes, and I think he has an amazing career
ahead of him after pro football, and as a member
of the gay Lisbon community, to what he's done, I
(17:03):
have to say I would I would say that the
religious environment is much stronger in baseball, especially than basketball.
And maybe maybe I'm missing something, but I know for
what I thought as eleven years as professional that the
uh there is there's a divide right down the middle
of you know, the like you said, the God squad
(17:25):
people that are very, very serious about religion. Some feel,
you know, that the only reason that they're you know,
been blessed with the abilities because of God blessing them specifically.
And and so there there's just a there's a very
huge cultural divide in baseball because it comes it comes
from a very broad market. You have your Asian players,
(17:47):
now you have your Southern players, you have your African
American American players, you have your Latino players, you have
your Afro Latino players. I mean, there's just it's a multitude.
You and then you have you know, your Middle America
kids who grow up, you know, with their parents, you know,
wanting them to be baseball players. So I think there's
(18:07):
much more diversity. I think basketball is much more. You know,
if you look across the teams, you see a lot
more similarities in race and background and culture. So I
I guess I would say I don't agree with him,
you know, exactly on that that comment. But I also
think that the pressure in the NFL, the toughness that
(18:30):
part having to coexist with coaches and a mindset ideology,
it's it would not be easy. And I think baseball
is is in an individual sport played by a group
of people. And if you are amazing, you know, it's
it's it's the possibility that a player could exist in
(18:51):
that In that light, I think, I don't know, there's
just so many variables. I've played it over my head
so many times around it and I wonder, to me,
I think the easiest environment would be for just a
great basketball player because they can you can control the
game in a way that's different from football and baseball.
You know, baseball there's a lot of time you stand around.
(19:12):
You only get a couple opportunities to succeed as a hitter,
a knight, and basketball is something where if you're an
amazing athlete, it's moving around as fast. There's not a
lot It's more of an instinctual game. And I don't
think players have time to think about who and what
you know is going on in the personalize of a player.
(19:32):
So that's always been my opinion.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly. And if you think
about Charles Barkley and what he said, he said he
wouldn't care whether the guy was gay or not, only
care whether he can shoot, rebound and run the floor.
And I think also another factor, just on what you
touched on, you got a twenty five man roster in
Major League baseball. You've got a forty five man roster
in football, and yet you've got what thirteen players in
(19:55):
the NBA, so you have smaller squads. It's a more
controllable let me share with you. Also another comment that
was made by Brandon Morrow, and I think he's right
on the mark. He says, I think being openly gay
as a ballplayer would be extremely difficult because of the culture.
He said, not that I think that there's a lot
of anti gay sentiment around. It's just that the mass
(20:16):
heel and feel in the clubhouse. And you're right about that,
not only from you know, as you said, people that
come from the South, but Hispanic ballplayers where that is
a big taboo with them, and so they've been conditioned
for a long period of time and that means that
they've got to, you know, change everything that they had known.
And that's why I think it's also going to be difficult.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Well, it doesn't. You don't become a major league athlete overnight.
You start very young, and what you just said is
you're conditioned. I was programmed as an athlete as a
young kid, like I did not even think about what
a gay person was or I'd never realized if I
had met one or not until I think I was
(20:58):
in college. And and you know, I did not come
out until I was at least even to myself, until
I was about twenty seven, and I had been in
baseball for almost five years at the big league level,
back and forth to tripa A. But it's exactly that
you're not. It's not like it's just it's one of
(21:19):
those things. It's an evolution, it's a you know, an
emotional process and the idea that you know, you dedicate
your life to something. And you know, I loved being
a baseball player, and I think of myself as a
baseball player who's just not playing baseball anymore because I'm
too old. But I don't think of myself as a
gay person before that, even though most people would label
(21:40):
me that because they know that I've opened up about
my personal life. So I just think that that's where
the process takes a while for these athletes. A lot
of kids identify very young with their sexuality, which is
a whole nother journey that is difficult. It's more difficult
for parents these days. I think my generation hid the
(22:01):
truth much more easy because there was no Internet for
us when we were kids. There was no you know,
this whole ability to have relationships in secrecy. With an anonymity,
it harbors courage to reach out and talk to people
and you you know, And that's why I think kids
are identifying their sexuality long before they have sex.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Bean lost his partner, Sam, who died of a ruptured pancreas.
Bean was with him at the hospital all night, but
because he was still in the closet, couldn't request to
leave from the team after he first found Sam in distress.
He didn't even attend Sam's funeral for fear of being outed.
We'll continue remembering Billy Bean when we continue with Sports Byline.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
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Speaker 7 (23:17):
Right now at Wendy's you can get a small Frosty
for a buck, and literally everyone is going. The car
behind you going to get a dollar frosty, the car
ahead of you already had one going for a second.
The person who cuts you off earlier, you guessed it
dollar frosty.
Speaker 6 (23:33):
Hmm.
Speaker 7 (23:33):
Maybe it's all a sign for you to go get one.
Just don't cut anyone off. No one likes that person.
The Iconicfrosty for a buck gotta be Wendys.
Speaker 6 (23:42):
Well, then the time only a participating in US Wendy's
not ballad in the combo prices. Maybe hiher in Alaska, Hawaii, California,
if you a third party delivery.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
You're listening to Ronbar's Sports Byline USA podcast.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Billy Bean has joined us on Sports Byline. You know, Billy,
I really think that communication is the key, and yet
you've touched on something. It's one thing for anybody who's
not a professional athlete to talk about this. They can
be rational, but when it's your livelihood, and you have
to go through all the things you're going to go
through if you come out as an active professional athlete
(24:13):
and you happen to be gay as well. So when
you balance those two things out, what type of person
is it going to take, what type of support is
it going to take, and what type of attitude from
fans and the media is it going to take to
make this transition.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, just like the timing of this interview is so
interesting because I think a lot of people will see
in this movie forty two Jackie Robinson was subjected to
the type of personality it takes to want to please
the masses, even at your own deficit. In a way,
I think it's going to take someone who is in
(24:54):
a very supportive home environment, and I just think that
he's going to have to be extremely secure in with
himself and it's going to be a point where he
I mean, I've seen people walk away from baseball because
it didn't make them happy, and I was in shock
(25:17):
by it. You know, when I was a young player
that I had a couple of players in the minor
leagues with the Tigers that just did not like how
hard it was and how much pressure you know, in
a way that pro sports it's it's not a family environment.
You know, behind the scenes, it's tough. It's very tough.
So I think the person that is the guy that
(25:38):
does this, In my mind, it's always been someone who
has has already achieved success and is feeling like all
the things in his life that are starting to matter.
His career is a you know, probably still a majority,
you know, the major part of that, but the choices
are getting costly, and it's time that he's you know,
(26:03):
willing to fight for his family, let's say, or something
in that way. And I'm hopeful that they have the
strength and the character that they can put up with
the initial you know, type of environment. You're going to
have people that are unhappy with any person that steps
forward with any kind of issue, whether it's sexuality or
(26:24):
political beliefs or whatever it is. You know, you can't
please everybody, and that part most athletes, they want to
please people. That's that's our nature, you know. We we
feel like life is good when people are cheering for us,
and you know, life is bad when they boo you
or tell you that you are terrible or you suck
because you struck out or dropped the ball or balling
(26:45):
through your legs or whatever. Every player has been subjected
to that, and it's it's just our value system. And
so I think there's just a you know, it's it's
a common sense argument in the in the minds of
every player that's dealing with this reality. But I have
to say, and I've written many articles, you know, when
this topic comes up, that when that guy does that,
(27:06):
I'm going to be I'm going to get on a
plane and I'm going to go sit in the front
row and I'm gonna wear his jersey and just you know,
I'll be one person who's cheering formed just because I'll
be proud of the courage and the desire to bring
two worlds a little bit closer.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Is it going to be important for that athlete to
be a highly productive athlete, because then it makes it
a little bit easier for management to support the decision
once that it's known that the athlete is gay. And
you know, I think about other examples in the past,
and if you don't have that support for management, and
think about management and baseball for just a second. Billy
(27:42):
back in the nineties, when they buried their heads in
the sand about performance enhancing drugs.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and so not like I said, every player,
there's there's there's one or two players on every team
maximum that that management cares about emotionally like in a
way that I mean, it's all performance based ron and
it's all about living up to the investment. And you know,
(28:08):
you see players that get these long term deals and
you know, the pressures off and they sometimes they their
their play goes away or a little bit or they
you know, they're they're not if they have an injury,
they're not afraid to sit out for a few weeks.
This player is going to be scrutinized night and day
for a while. And so he it's it's definitely he's
(28:30):
It would be so great if he has a body
of work behind him that speaks to his talent level,
where it would be just you know, an obvious decision
that a team is getting rid of the distraction. But
if he came out and he was no longer part
of the team next year, But the truth is is,
you know, I mean, I remember when I this conversation
(28:51):
first came up, the Yankees won through a four World
Series in a row. In the early part of the
decade in two thousand to two thousand and four, whatever
they or till two thousands after they won the World
Series in two thousand four years in a row, they
they they got rid of nine players off their twenty
five man roster. You know what I mean, It's like
(29:13):
they were world champions. There's no guarantee, you know, the fit,
the financial structure, dealing with salary structures, changes in management,
any kind of thing, you know, age, whatever it is,
there's you're bringing. You're bringing a little bit more of
a of a magnifying glass onto your performance if there
(29:38):
already isn't enough.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
You know, there's another aspect of this. And you know
that those that were uncomfortable with having gays on the
team or in the locker room for a period of time,
they use the argument about having someone gay in the
locker room when you're showering every everything, and piece by piece,
these arguments have been you know, done away with. Brandon McCarthy,
(30:00):
the pitcher, says that the argument that an openly gay
player could make teammates uncomfortable in the clubhouse environment is silly.
His quote is, if you played this game for a
number of years, you've probably had a few gay teammates,
and you've and have you ever been accosted in the
shower yet, it's probably not going to happen if somebody
comes out it happened. No, it's not gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
It happened because you don't make it to the major
leagues in baseball, where there's seven hundred jobs out of
six billion people in the world by screwing around in
the shower, trying to, you know, play around with someone
who's could be married, have kids. Is not interest. It's
not it's an office space. And it's just like saying
(30:43):
that every man in this country is not unable to
control himself around a female in the workplace. It's it's ludicrous,
it's disrespectful. I've said for years that gay and lesbian
athletes have had to be ten times more disciplined than
heterosexual athletes because of those of the possibility of that
you I was a player for over ten years. I
(31:05):
roomed with Brad Osmas for a couple of years. None
of these guys knew one thing about my personal life,
you know. And also in the big leagues, people are
there eight hours a day. There's one or two guys
in shower at a time. It's so stupid. It's people
they have a fantasy about this. You know, everybody's soaping
(31:26):
up and singing in the shower like in the thirties
or something. It's it's such a business environment. You know,
there's agents everywhere, there's reporters everywhere, there's trainers, there's you know,
it's there is nothing going on in the mind of
any player except how do I improve and how do
I keep myself on this team? And how do I
(31:46):
get on the field, get my five hundred at bats
or you know, fifteen innings, you know, as a reliever
of a month or whatever whatever there it is to
keep their job. It's just it makes me nut because
you know, yes, it's like saying that, you know, how
many how many players if a female reporter like they
(32:09):
would be unable to contain themselves. They joke about this
and all these you know, all these shows and stuff.
But you know it's a professional environment.
Speaker 6 (32:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Los Angeles Angeles pitcher CJ. Wilson had a great quote.
He said, if the guy's good, he's good. If there's
a girl who could throw one hundred miles per hour
and punch everybody out, she would get to play too.
We don't care. And you know what, it was interesting.
I was recently with a friend of mine who's a
four star general, and I said to him, I said,
what's been the reaction to the decision to allow gays
(32:41):
to be in the military. He said, absolutely none. And
I think that's where we are with sports today, except
for those that are going to hold on to old ideas.
Are you optimistic that what would you say one year,
two years, three years that we will And and it
was like Jackie, not Jackie Robinson, but Frank Robinson when
he became the first black manager with the Cleveland Indians.
(33:02):
After that it became, you know, not an issue right right.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
I mean, when you're dealing with the sensitive nature of sexuality,
especially between men, it's it's it's it's a little bit
of an uncharted territory.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
The the racial uh progression that we've had with people
like Frank Robinson and you know, Jackie Robinson. Obviously, those
are milestone moments in history. And it's true. I think
we as you know, we we will find a way
for it to happen. But you know, you need players
(33:37):
like CJ. Wilson in that where they just diffuse it.
It's like, get over it. It's no big deal. You
know who, Who's who is pushing this sort of this
the excitement you know, meter on this. It's it's about
baseball players. The guy wouldn't be there in the first place.
If he wasn't a great athlete and a tremendous baseball player,
he would not have found his way up to the
(33:58):
big leagues. There's no favor. Your errands can't buy you
a ticket there. It's you got to earn it, and
you earn it by playing years and years and years
of baseball. I mean thousands of games. I played winter
ball five years in a row, from eighty seven to
ninety two, I mean basically sixty months without stopping, you
(34:19):
know what I mean. There wasn't time for me to
have a personal life. It just I wanted to be
a big leaguer. That's all I ever wanted, you know,
And unfortunately, you know, circumstances of you know, meeting somebody
and then dying suddenly. It was a blow emotionally, and
I didn't share it with someone. And that's that's when
(34:40):
I started to question, I can't pull this in anymore.
And I love baseball I think too much, so I
left it as opposed to challenge it with do I
still belong here? And that was a mistake made a
long time ago and it was a different era. But
it's the reason I have always stayed available. And I
try to be a big, you know, role model to
(35:03):
the game lesbian community, specially the athletic one, and do
the right thing and and share the story and inspire
kids never to believe that they, you know, don't belong somewhere.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
We only have about three minutes left, and I want
to ask you also about another aspect because you and
I talked about this when the book came out Going
the Other Way Lessons from a Life in and out
of Major League Baseball, about some of the humor, some
of the words used that can be very, very hurtful.
You talked about Tommy Lesorda with the Dodgers and everything,
where they will use words that are hateful to people
(35:37):
that are gay. Is that going to change and how
do you deal with that in this transition to having
a gay player on your team.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
I think I think it has definitely changed already. I
think that baseball has really stepped up, and you know,
even added same sex language, and like the collective bargaining
agreement for pension benefits and even though nobody has has
you know, asked for for those type of things because
(36:07):
you know it's one of those things. But I think
where in my book I used to write about Tommy Lesorda,
you know, he had colorful language every second of the
day regardless. But I do think, I mean, obviously I'm
not in a big league clubhouse right now, but I
know that from my friendships with guys who have just
left the game and played for many years, that it
(36:30):
doesn't play. I mean there's certain guys like you said
the cultural I mean Escobar from the Toronto Blue Jays
had a little incident last year where Baseball, you know,
his own team suspended them for a few days. That
would never have happened in two thousand and three.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And all you have to do is take a look
at the National Football League with with what Chris Kulliber,
the forty nine Ers quarterback, did and how quickly they
jumped on him, both the team and the league as well.
And then you think about Kobe Bryant. He used a
slur and and he got fined big for that. So
I think there's an awareness of it that is going
to help make this transition happen. And taking angry words
(37:07):
and slings and arrows that an athlete has to deal with.
That doesn't mean you're not going to hear it from fans.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
But but you know what I'm saying, I think I
think Kobe I'm a huge you know, La Lakers guy,
and I was I remember that moment. But I think
someone like Kobe Bryant has understood how important what he
says is to so many kids, and he's been amazing
trying to first of all, take responsibility for a heated moment.
(37:33):
I think every athlete has uttered that word at one
time or another, and he wasn't. You know, it was
just one of those things that you're conditioned over years
and years and years. But you know, Chris Clemens, another
guy on Seahawks, we see it still. I think the
fact that we're seeing those moments and like Culver's in
the Super Bowl, Chris Culvert, is that it is starting
(37:56):
to be marginalized now and those are those are the
exception rather than the rule. It's no different than using
what Jackie Robinson was probably called in the newspaper, you know,
just free flowingly by people in the media. You know
what I mean. In the way that the world changes,
we need to demand that that language, you know, be halted.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
In his role with Major League Baseball, Billy Bean worked
to advance a quality for all players, coaches, managers, umpires, employees,
and stakeholders throughout baseball to ensure an equitable, inclusive, and
supportive workplace for everyone. He was instrumental in the development
of MLB's bullying prevention education programming and the game's support
(38:41):
of Spirit Day. Billy Bean Gone but never forgotten On
Sports Byline. You have been listening to Ron Barr's Sports
Byline USA podcast on the eight Side Network
Host
Ron Barr
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