Agents Giants Horses and Helmets

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello, and welcome back to Rosters to Rings everyone. I
am Ryan McDonough, joined as always by fad Levine. As usual,
we have an action pack show for you guys. Today
we're going to have on Jeff Berry, longtime Major League
Baseball player agent, now a senior advisor to the San
Francisco Giants.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
But that where I want to start this show with you.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
As we record this show the second week in July,
NBA free agency has flared up and then quieted down
at least a little bit. We have some restricted free
agents still in limbo. The summer league's about to get
underway in Las Vegas. But on the Major League Baseball side,
we sure certainly have things heating up. The trade deadline
is just a few weeks away at this point, and

(00:45):
that where I want to start this show is with
a listener question. This is from Michael Morris in Washington,
d C. I think was a little bit surprised at
the changes the Washington Nationals made over this past weekend,
just after the fourth of July holiday, they announced it
David Martinez the manager, and Mike Rizzo, the longtime general
manager who was there for sixteen years, including the World

(01:07):
Series Championship just a few years back, those guys were dismissed.
So that what do you think of the Nationals' moves
and specifically the timing of those moves, which seemed a
little bit unusual to me.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
Well, you know, Ryan, I feel as if if any
of us had a retrospective on our careers, it probably
wouldn't be that flattering. So I'm going to try to
be as objective as I can and just evaluating Mike
Rizzo's sixteen years with the Washington Nationals and Davy Martine's
tenure there. So, during Mike's sixteen years, he inherits a
team that was really atrocious. They picked first in the

(01:41):
draft his first two years. He takes that team to
the playoffs five times, they win the division, the NL East,
which is extremely challenging competitive division, four times, and they
win the World Series in twenty nineteen. One thing I
think that is of real note, and this may have
impacted his tenure. There is typically in Major League Baseball,
as I'm sure it is in the NBA and the

(02:02):
NFL and other professional sports, when you go to the
World Series, let alone win it, usually season tickets spike
for the next couple seasons. When you win it in
twenty nineteen and then COVID prevents anybody from watching baseball
games in twenty twenty, the Washington Nationals never really got
that benefit of the revenue spike. So I do think
that is worth noting as we evaluate Mike's career, I

(02:25):
reference the fact that they picked first in two thousand
and nine in twenty ten, his first two years as GM,
And as you and I've talked about, Ryan, not all
drafts are created equal. Sometimes there's not really a consensus
one to one. But there were those two years he
got to pick Steven Strasburg and Bryce Harper, two guys
Bryce Harper, who's who's highly likely to be a Hall

(02:46):
of Famer, as Steven Strasburg, who was on a Hall
of Fame trajectory prior to a career ending injury. In
twenty eleven, he backs up those two picks by taking
Anthony rendonin sixth. Overall, as a point of reference, those
three players combined in their tenure with the Washington Nationals
to accumulate ninety war which is an exceptional accomplishment. Unfortunately,

(03:08):
in contrast, in the last ten years, Mike Rizzo's drafts
with the Washington Nationals have accumulated a total of twenty
war as entire draft classes, and that would rank twenty
eighth in Major League Baseball. Furthermore, ever since taking Anthony
Rendon first in twenty eleven, his first round picks from
that date to this have accumulated combined negative war so

(03:31):
they have not done as well in the draft after
that nine two thousand and nine to ten and eleven seasons. Furthermore,
you start looking at some of the trades they made
in twenty twenty one, two years after winning the World Series,
they famously traded Max Scherzer and Trade Turner to the
Los Angeles Dodgers, and at the time, they got four
prospects back, two of whom were kind of lottery picks

(03:53):
who didn't pan out, two of whom they really hoped
were going to be a top of the rotation starter.
In Josiah Gray, over four seasons, he's accumulated about two
point eight or in a franchise middle of the order bat,
and kayber Ruiz as a catcher over six seasons, he's
accumulated four point six wars, So those guys haven't quite
panned out to be what they had inspired them to be.

(04:15):
In twenty twenty two, though, Jim Bowden credits him for
making the herschel Walker version of a Major League Baseball
trade when he traded Juan Soto to the San Diego Padres.
He nets three guys will be playing in the twenty
twenty five All Star Game, Mackenzie Gore, James Wood and
c J. Abrams In in addition a very interesting minor league

(04:35):
hitting prospect in Robert Hassel and a great arm in
Harlan Susannah. So that trade has a chance to still
bear a lot of dividends for the franchise. That was
probably the crown jewel of Mike's moves while he was
there as a as a general manager.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, that I was going to look at the payroll
because that's one of the things, you know, we'll talk
about here in a minute, and you know my personal
philosophy on it. I think the role structure in Major
League Baseball top to bottom is way too broad. We
went over in a recent episode. But the La Dodgers,
you know, way at the top, Miami Marlins at the bottom,
a lot of room in the middle. So where did
Washington fit in the thirty team payroll? Structure, and how

(05:13):
do you think that factors in as we evaluate the
performances of Mike Rizzo and Davey Martinez. I don't think
you can separate them, Ryan, as you've talked about multiple
times in our shows, you really can't separate the payrolls
from the teams. You can't separate the contracts from the players.
Leading up to the World Series in twenty seventeen, they
ranked fifth overall in payroll, twenty eighteen, second, twenty nineteen, sixth.

(05:38):
Going into twenty twenty, they still maintained that sixth position,
but the five years since they've ranked eleventh, eighteenth, twenty fourth,
twenty second, and twenty third. Since winning the World Series,
they've spent the twenty fourth most on the free agent market,
which sought them right ahead of the Miami Marlins, which
is something I don't think fans would realize. And since
winning the World Series, they're winning percentage is similarly really declined.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's four oh seven.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
That's the second worst winning percentage, besting only the Colorado Rockies.
So another thing that is happening here behind the scenes
that only Mike could probably attribute how disruptive it's been,
is that the team's been up for sale multiple times
in the last couple of seasons, and they as they've
transitioned from the original owner and Ted Lerner and when
he passed away to the next generation of learners who

(06:26):
are now deciding whether they want to retain the franchise.
And so then it gets to the second part of
your question, Ryan, which is why now and Bob Nightmingale
was one of the first reporters to list that both
Davey Martinez and Mike Rizzo had options in their contracts
for twenty twenty six that had to be exercised here
in July. And so my question, and I'm interested to

(06:48):
see if this bears out, is if the franchise conducts
a search soon and wants to fold the position, that
will signal something. But if they don't, maybe their intention
is to sell this offseason, not saddle the new ownership
group with the expenses associated with a general managor and
a manager who they may want to replace, but rather
give them a clean slate. So I would say, in summary,

(07:11):
as I look at Mike Rizzo's tenure, he inherited a
team that was in the cellar of Major League Baseball.
He then wins a world series, he returns it to
the seller. It may be the quintessential. Fans often say
these things, Hey, as long as you win a world series,
nothing else matters. Well, the Washington Nationals in the sixteen
years with Mike Rizzo maybe the true test of whether

(07:33):
or not fans do believe that. One thing I wanted
to ask you, Ryan though, was coming out of this
was what Mike Rizzo said in response to his dismissal.
And I'm reading the quotation here the sun will come
up tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
That's the job.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
I had a great run navigated that ownership group for
almost twenty years. I think that says volumes about what
his experience was like there. I know you've had some
challenges in throughout your career, but.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
We've talked about this before.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
Ownership is tantamount to the success of your franchise. I
think he's revealing that some of the challenges there were
significant and real.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
No.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
I give him a lot of credit for his honesty,
and I think you and I both are really impressed
by a sixteen year tenure. That and this day and
age with social media and the twenty four hour news cycle.
I know one of the things that all the leagues
have done. The NBA in particular is make these leagues
year round endeavors, where the off season is just a
myth if you're working on the team side. So to

(08:32):
be a general manager, field manager, head coach for sixteen years,
that's a remarkable run in this day and age, and
you look around all of sports throughing many guys who
last that long. But yes, it is a challenge, and
it's frankly one of the reasons we're doing the show.
Mike Rizzo is one of the few guys. It's easier,
I guess on your way out the door than when
you're currently employed to say these guys have no idea
what they're doing referring to ownership. But that is one

(08:55):
of the challenges. And in my career at that I've
seen both ends of the spectrum, guys who run teams
similarly to the way I would run it. If you
and I, you know, win the lottery tomorrow or this
podcast turns into Joe Rogan two point zero and you
know we're billionaires. I think we have a good model
for what we're how we would do it, and then
you know others were I would literally do the opposite,

(09:15):
just about every situation. So Mike Rizzo, kudos to to
him for being honesty.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know, there may be a little bit.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Of sour grapes in there on his way out the door,
but you know that world, as we say in the NBA,
flags fly forever when you win a championship. I was
fortunate enough to be part of the Celtics one in
two thousand and eight, and I think over times that
I want to get your perspective, but my thought is,
whatever else happens, the good and the bad, people remember
that the most.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
If you won.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Maybe sometimes if you've got to the finals or the
World Series and lost, people do remember that more than
the roller coaster ride and some of the low points,
because those good memories are so poignant.

Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think I think we've talked about it.
There's nothing more galvanizing I think in a fan base
when you lose a lot, but everyone's hunting those championship flags,
those rings, and those memories that are associated with that.
And Mike unequivocally delivered that to a franchise over sixteen years.
And as you mentioned, he was the third most tenured
Major League Baseball general manager. That is significant in this

(10:15):
game right. I want to shift a little bit because
what I've been reading ever since our last conversation about
free agency is the reporting of contracts and how they
seem slightly different than what they were originally reported to be.
And I'm just curious, can you help our listeners understand
when guys like Dorian Finney Smith and Nikhil Alexander Walker
sign and then when it's reported it seems like the

(10:37):
contracts are slightly different than what we're initially reported. What's
going on.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
There, Well, it's a race to break news and be first.
That across all of sports. That's why guys like Adrian
Wojnowski historically for ESPN, more recently Chom Sharania, you know others.
Jeff Passen in Major League Baseball is the name I
know as far as the newsbreakers who were elite at
information and getting it first and putting it online usually

(11:04):
on Twitter, slash x or other social media platforms unless
they're on TV live and just broadcast it. So that's
become a real big deal across sports. Those guys who
are now household names and revered for their ability to
get information and break news. They're elite at that. But
one of the things that happens that is in that
race context gets lost a little bit, and those guys

(11:25):
need to protect their sources. So what happens in the NBA, oftentimes,
especially in free agency, is the source is the agent,
because think of who benefits the most from having this
out there, especially if it's a big number, that is
the player's agent. Where people say, wow, I can't believe
that player got that much, and then the second thought
is his agent must be doing a heck of a

(11:46):
job to get them that much money. So usually that's
what happens because it's in the agent's best interest to
put it up there. Maybe they have other clients who
are in free agency. Maybe they want other teams to say,
oh man, this is going to be a tough negotiation,
and if we want one of that agent's top clients,
we're gonna have to pay up because look at what
he just got that guy.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
So yeah, the numbers Drian.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Finney Smith that was reported initially that he signed a
four year, fifty three million dollar deal over that. As
the details come out, it looks like only about half
of that is guaranteed, About twenty five and a quarter
is guaranteed, which means actually slightly more than half, about
twenty seven and three quarter million is not guaranteed. That's
very different things when we were talking about, you know,

(12:27):
having fifty three million guaranteed versus just over twenty five.
A similar thing happened with Luke Cornett had a really
good run in Boston. This is a guy who's been
around the league for a while, but as a third
string center developed into a nice backup center role with
the Celtics, which was more important with the injuries to
Christaph Forzeingis and Al Horford. He really stepped up and

(12:48):
played a nice role for the Celtics. But it was
reported that that the Spurs gave him a four year,
forty one million dollar deal, and even my buddies in Boston,
the most ardent Celtics fans I think, would say, wow,
was Celtic can't do that? They couldn't match that. Well, again,
the details come out. It turns out of the forty
one million, only twenty four million is guaranteed. A vast

(13:09):
majority that is guaranteed over the first two years of
a four year contract. The third year has a small
partial guarantee, and the fourth year is completely non guaranteed
at this point, So that's a seventeen million dollar difference.
So that's kind of the game and that's what it's played.
So if you see these lofty numbers and say, wow,
I can't believe a team paid that player X amount

(13:30):
of dollars, take it with a grain of salt, because
as the details come out, as people actually get their
hands in the contract, sometimes it's not a shiny and
as lofty as initially reported. Kristin, I have for you
is does this happen in Major League Baseball as well?
Reporters are putting out giant numbers that may not be
the reality as far as what a player is actually
going to receive. I think the one that is most

(13:52):
famous is the show Hey Otani reporting when he signed
with the Los Angeles Dodgers. It was famously reported as
a ten year, seven hundred million dollar deal, and everyone
in the industry was just absolutely blown away. That was
just so far and.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Above and beyond the highest highest paid player in the
history of the game that people were totally taken aback.
It was supported by saying all the other teams that
were interested in him and who had put forth similar deals.
It wasn't until like twenty four hours later that the
actual details of the deal came out, in which we
found out he was actually getting paid two million dollars
a year times ten years for the next ten years,

(14:29):
and then sixty eight million dollars a year per year
were deferred over the subsequent ten years. So the net
present value of that seven hundred million dollar deal was
actually four hundred and sixty million, which obviously is still
a staggering figure, but it's also demonstratively different than ten
times seventy what was originally reported. So I would echo
what you said. Sometimes the sticker shock is quite shocking,

(14:53):
but catch your breath. You may find there are more
details to come that allow you to put your feedback
on the ground. And it kind of an offshoot of
the same conversation is when some of these deals get
negotiated in trades, we then see these trades get amended
at times due to information that is gained after the

(15:13):
point of the deal being conferred. We saw that a
little bit in the NBA here. Can you walk us
through a few of those examples.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, So one of the things we've talked about recently
on the show, that is the mark Williams trade from
the Charlotte Hornets to the LA Lakers. That happened just
after the Luca Nacis trade, right up against the February
trade deadline that fell apart and was rescinded. And the
reason it was rescinded is because the trade deadline had
come and gone. That's three o'clock in the afternoon usually

(15:41):
the second Thursday in February. And once that deadline passes,
that the deal either goes through as advertised or there
is no deal. And that was the case with the
Lakers Hornets deal that fell apart. So Mark Williams went
back to Charlotte Dalton connect and the draft picks returned
to LA. It was a little bit awkward, frankly, and
as I predicted, Mark Williams was not going to be
in Charlotte long He's been since retraded to the Phoenix Suns.

(16:04):
But I bring it up because that's when you're up
against the deadline, there is that hard stop. You can't
change a deal at all after the deadline. Even one
minute after this situation was a little bit different. The
Celtics traded Drew Holliday to the Portland Trail Blazers. We
know what Holiday has done, not only as a Celtic
but as a Milwaukee Buck as well. I believe he's
one of just three players to win multiple rings in

(16:26):
the twenty twenties with different franchises. Won the one in
Milwaukee in twenty twenty one, and then just with the
Boston Celtics year ago in twenty twenty four, so he's
a valuable player. At the same time, the Celtics, in
large part due to the Jason Tatum injury and the
NBA strict second apron and harder cap rules, they're shedding payroll,
so they sent Christophe Porzingis to Atlanta and then Drew Holiday.

(16:48):
This was largely a salary dump. They got Anthony Simon's back,
who's a solid player, but a less expensive player on
an expiring contract. So the deals agreed upon that it
was Drew Holliday going from Boston to Portland, Anthony Simon's
and two second round picks going from Portland to Boston.
And then I guess when the Trailblazers got their hands
on Drew Holliday and looked at his medical records, did

(17:10):
their testing, there was something that they were slightly concerned
about now, they weren't concerned enough to avoid the deal,
which was their right, but since there is no deadline
in the offseason, the teams went back to the drawing
board and the compromise was the two second round picks
that were initially going from Portland to Boston were not
going to be part of the deal. It's just now
a straight player for player swap. It has been executed.

(17:31):
But these things are tricky that and they're always kind
of shades of gray, if you will. In the medical
player evaluation. Portland's was concerned enough that they say, wait
a minute, we don't feel comfortable giving up that much value,
and obviously Boston agreed. So the deal is still happening.
In fact, it has happened at this point, it just
wasn't as initially advertised with the two second round picks included.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, and right.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
I think what we've learned is this happens a little
bit more in the NBA than Major League Baseball. Where
it shows up in Major League Baseball a little bit
or prominently unfortunately, is in the draft. You know, they're
doing so much more to have a draft combine with
medical reports given in that so that teams have it afoerehand,
but in years past, we just didn't have complete information.

(18:14):
So I recall one time in Texas we selected a
pitcher who had pitched throughout his whole college career, no issues,
no injury time whatsoever. We ended up doing a very
standard physical in which we did an MRI of his
elbow and his shoulder, and we found that he had
a prominent terror in his elbow. The player had no idea,

(18:36):
his coach had no idea, his family had no idea,
and all of a sudden, we're sitting in a tough
spot where we have to tell him that the status
in the draft has changed dramatically and now he, you know,
is really in a position to earn far less money
because it was just a matter of when he was
going to have to have surgery. It was devastating for
the player. You hate to see those types of things happen,

(18:58):
especially in that situation and where the player genuinely had
no idea whatsoever that he was actually injured at the time.
So it happens in Major League Baseball, maybe a little
bit less frequently than you see it based upon your
experience in the NBA, but nonetheless it does happen, and
it's horrible. You really don't want to see that happen
to players or teams in those situations.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
And you worry about the player, even the outgoing player,
damaging his reputation, his market value in free agency and
all that. Players obviously get paid based on productivity and
on health, so there are concerns about taking this tack,
but we've seen it a couple of times recently in
the NBA with concerns about these physicals. Coming back after this,
we're going to have long time Major League Baseball player

(19:40):
agent Jeff Berry is a really interesting guy, work for
CAA at the highest levels now as a senior advisor
for the San Francisco Giants, and a pretty diverse guy.
He's interested in horse racing, He's got a new baseball
batting helmet, He's got a lot of stuff going on.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
He is stad Levine.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
I'm Ryan McDonough will be right back with Jeff Berry
right after this.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
Welcome back to rosterster Rings. Bryan and I are ecstatic
to bring on Jeff Barry as our next guest. Jeff
spent twenty six years as one of the pre eminent
baseball agents. He got to start with Hendrick Sports Management,
then moved to IMG and ultimately joined CAIA, where he
started up their baseball division, a division that he would
ultimately run under Jeff's supervision. CAA negotiated over four billion

(20:31):
dollars worth of contracts. Their client list was vast. Here
a few names to consider, Buster Posey, Trey Turner, JT Real, Mudo,
sho heey Otani, Hunter Green, JAKEPV, Mark Burley. This past offseason,
Jeff joined the San Francisco Giants, where he's joining longtime
friend and client Buster Posey as a senior advisor. Jeff

(20:54):
is Baseball's version of the International Man of Mystery. In
addition to representing players, Yef is a serial entrepreneur. He's
a longtime board member on the v Foundation, he owns racehorses,
and he's a strong vocal advocate for players' rights. Welcome
Jeff to the show. We want to kick it off
by talking a little bit about the draft and asking

(21:15):
you to take us behind the scenes. How do agents
prepare for the draft and then on draft night? How
do you manage the communication between baseball executives and your
clients and their families?

Speaker 4 (21:26):
Oh? Well, hello, Thaddeus it is. It's a very formal introduction. Ryan,
nice to see you as well. As I've mentioned, I
know your brother Sean, so one, thanks for thanks for
having me on the show. I think it's exciting what
you guys are doing. I think the draft, the draft

(21:46):
to me is it's like I think it's the most
not necessarily for an agent, but for the families, the
single most. And I don't even think it's close most
stressful event of a baseball player's career. And you would think, oh,
when you get to the major leagues, Oh, when you

(22:08):
get to big contract negotiations, when you get to free agency,
nothing to me is even close to the draft. And
I think the interesting part of that is, you know,
these kids are young, they're seventeen, eighteen, twenty one out
of college, and it's a very family oriented like this
is something that doesn't the draft day itself is it's

(22:33):
the build up of a lifetime of work that the
whole family has put in. So everybody's involved in it,
and you have the edge of not knowing where you're
going to go. What you mean, you've seen dreams happen,
so to speak, and you see, you know the pain
of not going where you anticipate and so much of

(22:56):
this has even been exacerbated that you saw it over
the course of your career. When I was in college,
we would like prank each other. I played at UNC Charlotte,
graduated from there as like somebody would fake call you
say hey, we stole you in the forty sixth round
because you don't know until like three days after. Now
everything is from the time these kids are fourteen fifteen.

(23:19):
You have the perfect game. You have, you know, like
they're famous in the little draft prospect world. And so
you have kids that have been built up since they've
been fourteen, some that are unknown families that have you know,
spent thousands of dollars chasing this dream, not only in
money but in time and effort. And so you know,

(23:42):
the social media aspects I think have even heightened the
focus so to speak.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
On the draft.

Speaker 4 (23:48):
But from you know, I've got an interesting story. You
remember Joe Blanton, of course this is a It was
a great client, wonderful lives out in Napa Valley now
his own winery. But I was remember it was whatever
the Phillies Rays World Series was, and Joe is starting

(24:09):
game four. He actually had a home run off Edwin
Jackson that game. But I'm there with his dad and
I'm sitting with his dad, who was a very, you know,
kind of hands off parent. But I remember sitting with
his dad and Joe was getting ready to start its pregame.
He goes, I go, are you nervous? He goes, no,
he goes, this is on him. He goes, you know
when I was nervous on the draft night, this is

(24:31):
nothing compared to the draft. And I remember thinking it really,
I don't know, kind of brought into focus the emotion
and the anxiety and all that stuff people are feeling
for the draft.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
You know, Jeff, One quick follow up I have for
you on that is, you know, from a club's perspective,
We've talked a little bit about how it's going on
in the draft room where Shawn Johnson, the scouting director
of the Minnesota Twins. We're five picks away from our pick.
I'm calling you, somebody's calling another agent, another guy's calling
a third agent to line up what would it cost
to sign your player? And so I just be curious

(25:10):
to take the listener behind the scenes, like how are
you processing that information? I call you up and say, hey,
would Joe Blanton sign for one point five million dollars?
You then have to call the family. The thing that
I think the listener should understand that's so challenging for
an agent in this is you may have literally two
to three minutes to get the family on the phone,

(25:31):
make a determination, and then, unfortunately, because there are two
other people in Minnesota's war room making those same calls,
we may not ultimately select your player. And so now
your player has to process they were just offered a
certain dollar amount and the team passed them over. How
do you manage some of those conversations, Jeff.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
I manage it that beforehand, because the thing would you say,
would he sign for this? I would ask you, is
that an offer? That's where so I you know, oh,
I mean I don't know if I had that conversation
with you before over the years, but like, is that
an offer? Because I don't play in hypotheticals with clients
in their careers. I want somebody, an organization that wants

(26:12):
to take this player, and if it's you know, if not,
then you know, you talk to the player beforehand, and
if he falls in the draft, he falls. But unless
it's like an offer or no, we would take him
as such. I don't think it was. It wouldn't be
worth the conversation for me.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Jeff.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Sticking on the draft theme, but backing up a little
bit prior to the draft, how did you divide your
time between scouting, recruiting players identifying and did that change
and evolve throughout your career in terms of the balance
between signing high school prospects, college prospects, position players versus pitchers.
How did you balance that up and did that shift

(26:53):
in all over the course of your career.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
I don't know if it shifted at all. I mean,
the whole idea of an agent, you want to represent
great players and I don't care if they're fifteen or
thirty five. So the key I think on any of
it is having a lot of great people work for you.
And you know, I always had incredible people that I

(27:19):
worked alongside with that. You know, I don't know if
it was ever a division of time or anything else.
Is you know, you do what needs to be done.
You know. The difference I think from where you guys
come from and from the agent side. The agent side
is entrepreneurial. You know, if you work in the I've

(27:43):
often questioned, I went on, David Sampson's showed that he's
now he's a big podcaster. I think he's making a
bunch of dough at it too now and has done
pretty well. And he was offended when I because he's like, well,
you know the business, and the I'm like, I don't
know if it's a business, because you're not going to

(28:03):
bankrupt it. On the entrepreneurial side, when there's actually a
decisions that we make is you know, if money doesn't
come in, if you don't represent great players, you go
out of business, right And so from our standpoint, if
you make the wrong decision in a working for a
professional team, you don't go out of business. You might

(28:24):
get fired eventually, but you don't go out of business.
And so from our standpoint in the division of time,
it was I don't know. You fish where the fish are,
and so I don't know. It was as simple as that.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Shifting gears a second but kind of similar theme. The
way the calendar works in baseball, know, the draft and
the trading deadline are a lot more condensed. How do
you prepare your clients for the trading deadline when they're
showing up in a lot of rumors and then ultimately
on the trade deadline, one of your players gets traded.
Like what happens from an age perspective, what calls are

(29:01):
you receiving from the family. How are you helping set
them up for the next city and success? Like humanize
that moment, like what is it like for a player
to go through a trade?

Speaker 4 (29:12):
Here is a you remember when the Marlins had the
they and this guy's getting a statue in Chicago on
Friday is Mark Burley And one of the more interesting
I remember this being a long night. I think the
key is always communicate. But one of the biggest things
to me in business is you have to be able
to deliver bad news. Everybody calls when like I would

(29:35):
always call clients dad. If a guy gets bounced in
the first inning, right, I know he's sitting in the clubhouse.
I call him then because no one's calling it. If
he throws like a complete game, shutout, everybody's texting calling
all that. So I think the ability to deliver bad
or unwanted information authentically is one of the key attributes

(29:59):
to be successful as an agent, because everybody can be
a glad hander, right, but when you know it kind
of hits. The proverbial fan is when you know you
need to be able to take care of business and
they need to trust that you have their best interest
and know what you're doing, and we'll do everything you can.
You might not be able to make the situation any better,

(30:19):
but you're going to do everything you can, and the
client knows that. So I think that's the key to communication.
But when Burley was traded to it was from Miami
to Toronto. We didn't have a no trade clause. Miami didn't.
We knew the risk we were taking. We got a
four year deal in Miami. Ozzie Yen went down there.

(30:41):
Mark played for Ozzie. You know, they signed who was
at the shortstop, the reliever, Burley. They had a big
splash that off seasons, the opening of their new stadium,
anticipated being there, but obviously it was the Marlins organization
at the time. We knew the risks and he gets traded.
He gets traded to the Toronto Blue Jays, which is fine.

(31:05):
You know, Anthoppoless had a good run going up there,
all that sort of thing. But Toronto itself has a
pit bull band and Mark and his wife were huge
animal rights advocates and owned pit bulls. His wife would
rescue pit bulls all over the country. So now all

(31:25):
of a sudden their family is disrupted because their dogs
can't come to Toronto. So those are the type of
things that you talk about behind the scenes, where you
toad the humanistic aspects of it. It was a nightmare
and it felt I mean, you can't change the I
can't rewrite a law in you know, and it's like,

(31:48):
I don't even know if I'm going I'm like, oh,
we're in the So it was a lot to it,
and so getting Mark up there, figuring out when his
family's going to be up there, the dogs obviously pit bulls.
Could they live outside of Toronto and still bring the
pit bulls. It was just that was one of the
unique things that people often don't realize when people get traded.
It's disruptive as anything for your life.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
No, it is, for sure.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
And Jeff, one of the things we talked about on
a recent episode is the difference between free agency, which
is tapped a little over a week ago in the
NBA just got started. There's some players on the board
and just how fast and condensed the period it is
is feeding frenzy right around.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
That's the opposite of baseball, Ryan.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
And that's where I was going out. I wanted to
get your take on it, both as an agent and
now as somebody on the team side, or what are
your thoughts on it seems seems very long and drawn out.

Speaker 4 (32:38):
From my perspective, I think we live and I don't
know if you've listened to my podcasts that did on only.
I think there's been a kind of a technocratic paradigm
that took over baseball, where you know this almost fraudulent
intellectual like you have to have a huge, massive front office,

(33:02):
you have to Dad will call, well, we just wanted
to check in, check in on what, Battius. You already
know what players we have. What do you want to
check in on? Do you want to make me an offer? Now?
We just wanted to see where you're at. And I'm like,
I don't even know what that. I'm at my phone,
at my desk. What do you mean where we're at?
We would sign with your team? Okay, I'll take that

(33:25):
back to the group and you know, we'll do a
deeper dive. You know, all these little jargon words that
and it's like I think the it's almost paralysis by
analysis where you have so much and people are I
don't know that it's everything is judged the media. It's like,
what do you hear now with that? And I think

(33:45):
this is the complete opposite of what's true that no,
running a baseball franchise is now like you know, operating
a global hedge fund with the complexities. And I'm like, Dad,
you've been around since I don't know, the late nineties,
two thousand. It's the same business. The you know, the
analytics revolution where we want to overcomplicate things is we've

(34:08):
always had stop watches and radar guns. You can glean
statistics off the back. I feel like the you know,
the surplus value is a term that we've heard so
often that that people do the math and you add
up and like, well, my math is better than your math.
To me, one plus one always equals to I don't
know how anybody could do that better. Uh So, you know,

(34:30):
from the front office standpoint in baseball, it's like the
everyone uses the word process all the time, Ryan and
this group thing and the gunslingers of the past. No,
I want to sign your player, Let's make a deal.
It's not people the front office generation has not been

(34:54):
raised that way.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
I don't know if that is on that Yeah, I do, Jeff,
I mean just to echoes your points, because I think
yours in my career really paralleled each other on the
agent side. I was on the club side. But I mean,
tell me if I'm wrong. Like when I started in
the game, like the average general manager was Kevin Towers
and Omar Manya and Jim Hendry and Brian Sabian. And

(35:16):
one thing that was universal about those guys is they
were the guy who they went out and got players.
They were those gunslingers.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
They took risks.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
When they called you, you knew exactly what they were
looking for because they told you what they were looking for.
And one of the biggest distinctions I've seen in the
I don't know if the proper word is evolution of
the game, but changes in the game is that general
managers then used to hunt good players. I think now
they hunt good deals, and I think there's a distinction.

(35:45):
And when we're calling you and we're more focused on
maintaining leverage and we are gathering as much information as
possible while giving as little information as possible, it makes
for very laborious conversations. I always used to like technolog
the chase and just tell people what we're looking for
and see if we can actually come to a fair
and equitable deal. But that's not really how the average

(36:07):
general manager is negotiating today.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
Why do you think that is pattious?

Speaker 3 (36:12):
I think there, you know, I think there's a few
things going One one you highlighted, which is I think
there's just so much more advanced data to evaluate the
measure of these deals. So whereas before we were operating
a little bit more subjectively based upon scouts input, you know,
human input, we're now relying a lot more on models,
so there's a lot more easy ways for people to

(36:34):
say empirically whether that was a good or bad deal.
So we've become more sophisticated in how we evaluate the deals.
But I think you also illuminated another point, which is
we're hiring different types of people. You know, the qualifications
to be a general manager. When I started, by and large,
as yet, I had to have some backing in the
game of baseball. I think you had to be pretty

(36:55):
balanced EQ and IQ. You had the ability to be
a little bit of a marketing forward looking person for
the franchise, and nowadays we've I think, started hiring people
who are a lot more IQ led, which is there's
nothing inherently wrong with that, but it is that the
level of raw intelligence has come the game has certainly increased,

(37:19):
but I think so too has the personalities may have
decreased a little bit. We don't have those, you know,
kind of strong flamboyant personalities in the game as much.
And I don't think that took away at all from
the intelligence of the decision making personal.

Speaker 4 (37:33):
No, I look. One of the things to me, I
think you watch the Moneyball and I've commented on this
that I think Moneyball storytelling is a big thing, right.
You see it in politics, you see it in business,
you see it in all aspects of life. And John
Henry is sitting there with Billy Bean at the end
of the movie and Brad Pitt's a superstar. I just

(37:53):
watched F one. I'm gonna start dipping my face in
the ice water every morning so I can stay as
young as Brad Pitt. We all have dreams, Dad, but
the you know, looking at when you you have general managers,

(38:14):
that everyone is basing it. John Henry says to Billy Bean,
you took the you know, the Yankees paid X hundreds
of millions per win. You paid this, and the reality
was ninety percent of those moneyball teams was built through
the international and amateur drafts. No one ever talks about that,

(38:35):
but the Scott Hattieberg and the efficiency model and how
he did it cheap and that science has the answer
to the Bambino. Think about this for a second. You're
watching this movie, I don't know, Oscar type movie, great actors.
Billy was an incredible leader, would take over any room
that he goes into. You have this moment at the

(38:56):
end where he's sitting in Fenway Park talking with John Henry,
and John Henry says basically, congratulations, you just built the
cheapest winning team in history. Now I'm going to make
you the highest paid sports executive in history. What do
you think that incentivizes from there? It's so now it's

(39:17):
more about the front office than it is about the
actual players on the field, that, oh, we can out
smart everybody. I think that's one of the biggest fraudulent
type of the idea that it's the players on the
field that matter. The Braves are having a tough season.
Alex and Thoughtless's IQ hasn't gone down, has it? His

(39:38):
emotional intelligence the you know, Derek Folvey today is just
as smart as he was five years ago or whenever
you know they were winning. And so it's so much
to me is like, now, good players make really good
great general managers and coaches. It's not that your math
is so superior. But and I'll tell you why. And

(40:00):
so that's where I think a lot of that resonated from.
Is that tells you that sets up an incentive for all, right,
the cheapest you can do it, that's the highest paid
general manager. And I think that the evidence of this
the San Francisco Giants won three World Series in five years.
They didn't have one person ever even interviewed much less.

(40:22):
But if you were working for the Rais and you
had general managers lined up, you had Corn Ferry pushing you,
you have all these different things. And to me, if
winning is the goal, then San Francisco should have had
people banging down their doors when they win three World
Series in five years. Yet not one person was ever

(40:43):
even interviewed from that organization for a job.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
It's remarkable. It's remarkable, Jeff. This actually segues into a
question we wanted to ask you, which is you know,
I think all of sports is talent evaluation. You know,
agents are doing it no different than front office executives.
We understand that scouts can line up three shortstops and
evaluate them. But part of my job was to have

(41:07):
scouting reports on every agent, on every other general manager.
I imagine you did the same, And I'm just curious
when you were preparing to negotiate, let's just say, with
a Kevin Towers type versus a today's GM, like, how
did you prepare differently for that? Did you have scouting
reports on these guys? And I wanted to share something
with you, Jeff, I looked up because I kept notes

(41:28):
on everybody. These were the words I had written next
to your name, And tell me if I got this right.
I wrote down He's a relationship guy more than a
transactional agent. He always enjoyed a conversation that You were
passionate about the betterment of the game, and you enjoyed
engaging on those conversations kind of across the aisle. You
always tapped into front office executives about that. You were

(41:52):
exceptionally creative, You were very principal on behalf of your
players and you had very high integrity. That's what I
had written down as my scouting report you. So I
just was curious, is it nice?

Speaker 4 (42:03):
Words? Bad? Now?

Speaker 2 (42:04):
That's hey.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
I have a journal somewhere. I dusted it off with
my feather duster, and that's what it said next to
your name. So I just just curious, like, how differently
did you prepare? Did you have scouting reports on gms?
And would you care to share with the listeners any
of those that you recall.

Speaker 4 (42:20):
Now here's the thing on that from a scouting report
on any of it. It was more to me is
what are the GM's motivations? Is he looking to you know,
does he want to look smart? Is he worried about
his job? Where are so it's more to me it
was situational. What are the needs? I would be more direct.

(42:40):
I would try to be direct with everyone, but I
would you know, I think my approach and maybe it
was even wrong. I was the same with everyone, meaning
I would try to know what the situation was, why
they're making this move, why they interest, what's this guy's
current status and is he willing to make a deal.

(43:04):
If you had a guy that is you know, I
had so many, Like, even going back with Hater when
he was a free agent, he had the lowest batting
average against. Here's something for you, Ryan. Think about this
from an NBA's perspective. He's a left handed closer, had

(43:24):
the lowest batting average against in the highest strikeout rate
in history. So by definition that and you'll have I
don't know, if this is analytically correct, that would make
him the hardest pitcher to hit in history. Right, and
his MRI was pristine. I'd had multiple general managers say
I've never seen an MRI this good. Obviously, he was

(43:45):
only pitching one inning at a time dad for the
previous four years for that purpose, but I would have people, well, yeah,
we just wanted to check in and I don't know,
kind of see where you guys are at us. Well,
I don't know. He's arguably the best pitcher in history
and reliever in history, and these are the reasons why,

(44:06):
and yeah, we'd consider everything. Well, okay, just check back
in with me if things start to move, and I'd
be like, no, I'm not checking back in with you.
Take that back to your tay. I'm not checking I'm
not doing your job. If you have interest in this player,
we'll consider all teams. And it was kind of like
that for every player. But think about that for a second. Ryan,

(44:28):
you have the best three point shooter and a good
defender with the healthy record that doesn't sit around well
if anything starts to go circle back with me, think
about that from a difference from MLB to the NBA
free agency, No.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
It's a huge difference for sure, And a lot of
guys who really aren't very good got tens, if not
one hundred million dollars plus last week in the NBA.
So that's a huge, huge difference.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Jeff.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
The next question I had for you is something Fad
and I have talked about recently in terms of the
differences between Major League Baseball and the NBA, specifically with
the payroll. And one of the fun things about this
show is for the NBA that is kind of the
voice of the fan. I'm the quote unquote expert, and
we reverse it for Major League Baseball. So we got
his perspective last week, but I want to get your
perspective now because one of the issues I have as

(45:16):
a fan of Major League Baseball is when the season starts,
it seems to me like a vast majority of teams
do not have a chance to win the World Series,
and the Yankees and Dodgers or just played in the
World Series last year due what is your perspective on that,
and what are your thoughts about potentially bringing the salary
floor up in Major League Baseball but also putting kind
of a harder cap or a completely hard cap on

(45:36):
the ceiling to have teams operate in a tighter salary range.

Speaker 4 (45:42):
Obviously a broad question. I'll start with the premise that
I think major League Baseball should be and this is
either from a union perspective, from a commissioner perspective, from
a team owner perspective, and from a player perspective. Agent
We all share in this is I always I've started
with the premise that Major League Baseball should be the

(46:04):
most valuable professional sport in the world. Why would I
say that? Have I shared this with you before that
I know I go on these diatribes, even on calls.
The reason is is you see the value of live
content We've been that's been pounded over our heads for
the last four or five years. I don't remember the
last time I watched live television. You remember when we

(46:27):
would watch Seinfeld on Thursday night at seven you had
to be there, or the Sopranos on HBO twenty years like,
you would make sure you're there, must watch TV. Now
everything's Netflix, everything's this. So the value of sports has skyrocketing, right.
The value of live content American Idol isn't as good

(46:48):
if you already know who won. Some of the you know,
like the shows that are competitions that are this are valuable.
Major League Baseball has one hundred and ninety of five
hour blocks of live content four to five hours. You
have your pregame, your game, and then your post game shows.

(47:10):
I think the commissioner and I give him the credit
for it, because he's the one who had to unilaterally
implement it. I think he literally saved the sport. I
think he should go in the Hall of Fame. And
I've spoken a lot of different negative things on it,
but the pitch clock saved the sport. I could not
hardly stand going to games, and I had players playing

(47:31):
in it when they were three and a half hour,
four hour, you know, like ugh, it was drudgery rather
than entertainment. And so I think the entertainment quality of
Major League baseball is skyrocketed with the pitchclock. We now
have one hundred and ninety dates between spring training and
regular season, and you add another thirty games whatever postseason,

(47:55):
so you have live content more so than anything else
in the world. I don't even think we have to
be the best days of our lives went for sixty
years because it was every day. It didn't have to
be gone with the win. It was every day and
there was value in that. So I think the sports
great on TV. I think we have more games than
anyone in the world, and I think that, to me

(48:19):
should be where the focus starts, kind of the aggregation
and figuring out and I think that you would know
more about this than you've been in big markets and
small markets and everything else is the teams figuring out
what their media strategy is to not only promote the game,
but to maximize it not only for the fan base,

(48:41):
but for the franchise valuations and everything else. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
I mean, Jeff we talked about in past episodes is
I think when you hear the notion of a salary cap,
everyone just looks at the top of the salary and
the high potential earners. In practice, as you know, there
are a lot of teams that are spending very, very
little on their team. There's a gap right now between
the Marlins in thirtieth place and the Dodgers, which equals

(49:06):
the Philadelphia Phillies payroll, which is the fourth biggest payroll
in the game. If we could get the teams at
the bottom end of the payroll to spend more money,
there's actually an opportunity even if we if we truncate
the top end a little bit, there'll be a lot
more money in the game. I think the whole RSN
conversation that you touched on there is such a such
a huge issue for the sport right now, as these

(49:27):
are significant revenue generators for teams that are starting to erode,
falter and go away entirely. I guess the question I
had springboard off of what Ryan asked you, was, you
know the collective bargaining agreement is going to be up
again at the end of twenty twenty six. You are
uniquely positioned because you've worked on the union side, you've
worked on the club side. If you were advising Tony

(49:50):
Clark on the union side and Rob Manford on the
commissioner side, like what one or two things. Would you
recommend to them as changes that could be materially impactful
for the game.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
Well, you know what's interesting to me is I think
you have to get because you mentioned the RSN model,
I saw what was it. There was a you know, Manfred,
there was an article by Evandrelic tells players they've lost billions.
I don't know if you saw that. I did and
to me. And then there was another thing. You have

(50:20):
the media rights issues and my premise that I think
baseball should be the most valuable sport in the world.
Why wouldn't even because the thing for me and why
is it the most valuable? They play every day, the
value of live content right, and the entertainment product has
got exponentially better with the pitch clock. So one of

(50:41):
the things I was looking at is, you know, esp
and MLB had gone back and forth on media rights
all this sort of thing. But MLB and now it's
back there, back talking again. And I saw something that
said it would be expected for only three years. MLB
wants to line up all of it's right agreements for
after the twenty eight season. At that point, Fox's World

(51:03):
Series playoff TNT Sports Right Playoffs conclude as well as
MLB's international packages. So to me, it's figuring out from
a team side what that media thing looks like, transparency
with that right, how much money can be is available
in the sport and you could kick the can, I

(51:27):
would think to me from a CBA standpoint after the
twenty eight season, when we have we know all the
chips on the table, why does that make sense? That
would be just my thirty thousand foot view of let's
get all the rights in this one package. Figure out

(51:49):
how to do it. And I'm everything has a price point, right,
whether what's for the best of the game, not you know,
holding on to from an own ownership standpoint or union standpoint,
to arguments that were thirty forty, fifty sixty years ago,
but recognizing the opportunity and value that currently exist with

(52:13):
what the changing tastes and the way we view content,
and the thing of it is there is no replacement
for live competition, There is no replacement for sport. It
matters because you can't predict it and unless you watch
it live, it's not valuable. You can't watch maybe some

(52:34):
psychos in New England watch like ness and replays of
the Red Sox or something. But sports isn't intended to
be watched on tape delaye.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
My friends and relatives are those psychos? Yet the guys
who were and you know on a repeat, Yeah, I
critique my brother Sean and others who are on the broadcast. No,
in all seriousness, how do you think Major League Baseball
does as far as marketing stars? So that's something I
think the NBA really pushes. In some cases, the players
are as identifiable, maybe even more synonymous with a fan

(53:08):
than the team. You know, to people are fan of.
Pick your star who's changed teams Lebron James, Kevin Durant
and the root for that player regardless of where he is.
How do you think MLB has done I.

Speaker 4 (53:18):
Think MLB has done fine. I think that's an easy,
like picking point for the thing that you have to
have make a compelling product, not try to falsely push
and market things. Make the product itself compelling and it
markets itself, meaning like make it avail. Have the availability

(53:38):
to view a game like the blackout things has been
a huge issue that as you know, things like that,
so like doing goofy commercials or do you remember when
the drudgery of like the four hour games that and
you know, the players dancing, and it was like sideshow
entertainment to distract from how awful the product was on

(54:01):
the field, to drudge through a nine inning game.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
I started my career in Colorado, the average game was
four and a half hours.

Speaker 4 (54:08):
No, it's a awful. So I think for me, with
the cleanup of the sport, the tempo of it, and
all that thing, getting better, it for me has I
don't think you have to do fake marketing. I don't
think you have to try to trick people in. I
think you bring people in by putting a compelling product
on the field and then have it available to use.

(54:30):
And you know the blackouts or anything else. Did the Braves?
You talk about marketing players? That held you?

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Dad fifty three?

Speaker 4 (54:39):
Okay, so your perfect age is, well, I'm fifty five
and I remember you talk about marketing of a brand.
Is when Bad and I were growing up, you couldn't
There weren't games on all over. You'd have the Saturday game,
you'd have the Cubs. Things like that. Ted Turner buys
this little station and calls them America Team. They're horrendous.

(55:01):
They're losing one hundred games. I can still name the
lineup from like the nineteen eighty one Braves when I'm
eleven years old, because we watched them every day and
you would see Braves hats all over the country. You know,
we're America's team. Well I don't know, you're sixty and
one oh two. But they were on every day and

(55:22):
it was a really compelling storyline that that's what I
believe is, you know, And they were one of two
cubs were kind of on WGN, but every Braves game,
I remember my mom's saying, we're watching the Braves again.
They're on again. I was like, now, Mom, one sixty
two or on. And so I think that's how you

(55:44):
market something, is put a compelling product. Like I live
in the Sarasota Bradenton area and blacked out on all
the I never watched the Raids and they're local team
because it's blacked out. I'd have to go steinbern er
Field to watch him. But nonetheless I never watch him

(56:04):
on TV.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
Jeff shifting gears for a second to your current career.
You're now advising Buster Posium. You touched on it earlier.
You guys are kind of zigging where everyone else is zagging.
How influential. Have you been in supporting Buster towards those goals?
And you know, talk a little bit about the acquisition
of Raphael Devers. We've talked about that on the show.
From kind of the controversial side on Boston, how was

(56:29):
the acquiring him side of that?

Speaker 4 (56:32):
Well, I think the acquiring side is we need a
middle of the lineup hitter and you just try to
make moves. It's not you know, no one's trying to
win a surplus game. We're trying to entertain fans and
win the division. And it's really as simple as that.
I think from you know, I've known Buster probably since
he's been eighteen nineteen years old, and he was a

(56:55):
guy the late great Mike Martin told me the first time,
you know, he and I talked, He's like, this one's different,
and you know, he'd had, you know, hundreds of great
players come through Florida State. And I remember meeting Buster
for the first time and I was you could tell
there was something special. And it's interesting you go back

(57:18):
to the draft. This will be a kind of a
cool thing for you, Ryan, and for you that is
we were talking about the draft. I probably I don't
know say seventy five first round picks over twenty six
twenty however, a lot, and there were three players in
that whole time. I told you about the anxiety and
the you know, oh, the social media is putting stuff

(57:41):
out everything. I had three players out of my entire
time doing the draft. And I've told this story many
times before because I think it's so instructive. I had
three players that never asked me one time, not even
right until up in the draft like draft day, not
one time, nor their parents where do you think he's

(58:02):
going to be drafted? Or where am I going to
be drafted? Or who was there at the game today?
You know, great game, bad game. They never asked me
one time, where do you think I'll be drafted? You
know who those three players were, Buster, He's one of them,
Trey Turner and Michael Waka and meaning like those were

(58:28):
guys that had real comp Those are special people, because
I guarantee you that's true interconfidence. I saw Buster. Trey
got thrown out of a double header at Clemson. It's
his junior year. The place is stuffed with all guys
like youth that I mean, crowded, and he did something

(58:48):
that the ump misinterpreted he shouldn't have been thrown out.
But in college he gets thrown out, Like the first
inning of game one, it's freezing cold. His grandfather is there.
He has one leg, sitting in the stand and freezing.
And I called Trey. I said, he didn't ask me
one time? Hey, well this helped me? Or he's just

(59:08):
gonna hurt me. You know, what are people gonna think?
Never even crossed his mind. He just he I remember
him answering the phone. I said, what are you doing?
It's like watching the game from the bus, And I said,
where's your grand day? He's like sitting out in the stands.
I'm like, oh, and it's like a thirty five degree
day and it's just awful. And he didn't He only

(59:30):
thing he said to me is I never should have
been thrown out there. They took what I did, and
I was like, and I'm like, that is confidence. He
didn't worry that there were one hundred people there to
see him. I saw walk. I remember he got just
throttled two weeks before the dri or Yeah, it was
late in the year by like Kansas or Kansas State

(59:53):
and throttled and they it's almost like they had his
pitches or they had a chick like they weren't missing
any of his change ups and just had dinner, didn't
ask me, you know who was there? Is this going
to hurt me for the draft? He's like, I got
to be better next time, And I'm like, those are true,
Like the parents were the same way. Apples don't fall

(01:00:16):
far from trees, and I knew all three of those.
I always tell that story because it so impressed me
that they had the inner confidence not looking what their
rankings were or what people were saying on social media
or what you know, recruiting thing is pushing them as
the next thing. They knew who they were, and that

(01:00:37):
to me was like the interesting when you talk about
the different families or different ways people react to the draft,
that was a really critical indicator of success for me.
Guys that will be able to withstand the unquestionable adversity
that's going to come towards you in a career.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Jeff.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
One of the things were jealous of from NBA perspective
is your ability to negotiate different things into player contracts.
In the NBA, I think they're only eleven or twelve
things to negotiate and a few of them are the
data signs how many years of the player is getting,
the salary, the payment schedule. So it's pretty cut and paste.
It's pretty boring, to be honest with you. That pulled

(01:01:18):
a great example for this show. I think Troy Gloss
accorded that at an annual equestrian expense. Are there any
things like that that you remember either you negotiated or
you asked for and rejected, or you've heard your other
colleagues in the agent industry asking for. Because I think
that's fascinating for somebody who you know, basically just fills
in a few numbers and then signs it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:38):
And it's interesting. But but you know, the thing of
it is, ron I don't have anything specific that pops
up that you know, obviously the no trade clauses and
the you know, the housing allowance tickets, you know, like
transportation for family members, different things like that for say
a guy that's out of the country or you know,

(01:01:59):
that's sort of thing. But more to me to your point,
and I think some of this is being lost. Dad
knows this. The draft used to be a lot more
fun in baseball than it is now. They boxed it
into what you said of like you know, agents high
five when we get slot or when we get like
the creative, and I remember it even goes back. You

(01:02:20):
remember when I think THEO is probably responsible for initiating
a lot of the other teams. You remember when they
were going on that kind of journey of spending whatever
they wanted on the draft ad because it was the
cheapest way. And you know, he would have paid if
I could have somehow gotten, you know, And I'm thrilled
Buster ended up with the Giants. It was a match

(01:02:40):
made in heaven from day one. Is I think THEO
would have paid whatever he would have paid. You know,
people would ask me, well, what is what's Buster looking
for in the draft, and I said, I don't know it.
You know, Molina just signed a sixty million dollars deal,
and I think Buster's talents ahead of his, and you know,
knowing response I would get. But THEO was going down

(01:03:03):
that path a lot, meaning like spinning whatever it took,
and a lot of the I don't know, the gamesmanship
of the draft has now disappeared with this kind of
boxing in system. What for better or for worse, it
just wasn't as fun for me. Well, I think I
think that new system.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
Yeah, Jeff, And it's it's it's a it's a link
that's tying this whole conversation to together, which is the
game has gotten a little bit more formulaic right where
it's there is less freedom to negotiate, kind of unencumbered.
It's tougher to squeak in the equestrian account for Troy
Glaus's wife into these contracts anymore. You just don't see
that see that as frequently, Jeff. I I want to

(01:03:44):
give you some airtime here. You're more than just an agent.
You know, we touched on into the intro. You've been
very involved with the V Foundation. I know your wife
is very involved with the VV Foundation. They also a
racehorse owner. I'd love to give you a chance to
give the fans a little slice into here we go,
the hat's coming on, like what iss like as you've

(01:04:08):
now transitioned from being an agent where you're spending some
of your free time. And then also i'd love to
hear the story of why you left the agency because
I think it's very informative to the listeners.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
Well, and a lot of it was I was, I
don't know, it felt like it had run as course
for me, I talked one of the things where I
didn't feel like it was able to make the difference
that I wanted. And that's why I did a lot
of the media stuff with only just to kind of
tell all those stories, so to speak. And it felt

(01:04:39):
like it was just the right time for a change.
I had had wonderful clients, wonderful employees and colleagues and
co workers and all that, and I love being an agent.
I just didn't love being an agent, you know. I
go back to the Hater deal. I lost that arbitration case.
That and I probably lost more arbitration cases than anyone
over the last twenty years. And we were a hundred

(01:05:05):
What we were seeking was one hundred thousand dollars more
than what papal Bond had gotten eleven years earlier.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
And can I just say, Jeff may have lost arbitration cases,
but you never lost the principal battle. And that's why
I said that about you earlier. You went to bat
for your clients when you felt the principles were on
your side, regardless of whether you were handicapped to win
or lose these cases. So I just want to put
that in a little bit of context it was.

Speaker 4 (01:05:29):
I appreciate that, but the fact like I made the decision.
I remember sitting there at the table and I was,
you know, watching people running out of the rooms. That
saves the value by which our saves of the currency
by which relievers or value bad. You know, in this academic,
smart guy world, there couldn't be anything further from the truth.
And I was sitting there and I'm like leaning back

(01:05:50):
and I'm watching this and I'm like, I'm gonna you know,
I've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory here and
I'm going to lose this case. And it's insane that
I'm losing this case. And that was to me. I
was like, we're going to see this through. And you know,
I'd rather Mowlawns in Florida then just cave into it

(01:06:12):
because it's not worth it to me not to try
to do what's right there. And so, you know, leaving
was no. It just felt like the right time. But
since I have been out obviously working with Buster trying
to you know, we were very aggressive Buster and Zach Manassian,
who is a dude of a general manager. I think

(01:06:34):
he's been unbelievable. The kid that started out, you know,
as a club. He grew up in the sport. I
call it like that. You know, you have your corn
Faery Hires. I look at it like a Chick fil A,
meaning you can't that. Ryan can't go and buy a
Chick fil A, even with all his NBA money. You
know why because he doesn't have any history or background

(01:06:56):
with Chick fil A, and they have like the culture
of that. You see it it resonates every time. I
was just in Albany, and not a great area of Albany,
coming back from Saratoga where my horse was scratched with
an emergency surgery, so not in the best of moods.
I go into a Chick fil A and the place
is beautiful. They got an older gentleman sweeping things up,

(01:07:18):
refilling my soda. The point of it is you have
to have experience working for Chick fil A and have
grown up in the industry, learned it from the ground up.
And I think that's a huge benefit. I think when
we got into the outsider world, you remember that it
was a it was almost a check mark against you

(01:07:38):
if you had a lot of experience in scouting, or
if you had a lot of experience in playing, which
is so bonkers to me. That all right, but you
can do really good math, or you can program this
or that. But this guy's been in the trenches for
twenty years. I take the guy in the trenches for
the last twenty years. I don't think this is Baseball

(01:08:01):
teams are like global hedge funds that you know, the
complexity and all that, and so I look at you know,
like what Zach has done, what Buster has done, And
to me, I think it'll be the new wave of
what general managers will be. I think the pendulum will
swing back. And I remember thinking this because, oh the Giants,

(01:08:24):
this is such a dramatic move, and I'm like, dramatic move.
It's he graduated at the top of his class, you know,
academically high school, was a college academic All American in
addition to winning every single award. And then he caught
for twelve years three World Series champions, calling every pitch,

(01:08:48):
managing the EQ of a pitching staff. Dad, you know
how hard that is, the EQ to manage a team
hit four hole and squat. Yet he's unqualified to run
a baseball team. That was to me like a real
tipping point. In my mind at lean now, it's like
running a I don't know, I'll take the academic all

(01:09:09):
American that has been a catcher for twelve years and
going into the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
Well, Jeff, I'll just throw one one observation and you
tell me if this fits Buster.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
But I think the way that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
Doesn't work is if he feels like he has to
have all the answers. And I've often thought when nobody
has all the answers right right. But I do feel
as if there's a lot of people in the game
today when an owner asks you a question, how do
you interpret it? Is it my responsibility to give him
my best answer or the best answer? And I think
a lot of people let their egos get in the

(01:09:41):
way and they feel like it has to be from them.
So I would just say, you know, Buster gets hired,
but the first two things he does is he brings
you in and he brings in Bobby Evans, who is
a longtime general manager, won all of those World Series
rings in San Francisco, was one of those candidates who
probably deserved other opportunities that you referenced earlier. So rounding
himself with the intelligence, the experience to whatever sense he lacked.

(01:10:05):
He surrounded himself with the right guys. He had the
humility to do that. And he's tapping into you guys.
So if he insisted on doing everything by himself, he
probably still would have been successful because he's incredibly talented.
It just may have taken him a little bit longer.
So no, I want to look at people.

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
Yeah, it's the players who are successful. And here's the
thing about Buster is and this is different when you
Buster doesn't. And I can understand now that seeing this,
these are really good jobs for you know, Ryan, you
and Bad you guys were high level executives. Those are
really good jobs. And you know, what do they say

(01:10:41):
about most general managers is their main interest is making
sure they remain the general manager. Buster has the advantage
of not that, meaning he's going to truly do the
best for a franchise with no concern of what. He
doesn't need the job, right, his ego doesn't need the job.
The you know, financially doesn't need the job. He's doing

(01:11:02):
it because he loves San Francisco and loves the San
Francisco Giants. And that's a pretty powerful position to be
starting from. Uh and I think in the one of
the things too. That and I've had more empathy on
this side because I would always make fun of people like, no,
I'm not circling back, I can't even listen to your
nonsensical jargon anymore, and this or that. But having a

(01:11:26):
job in baseball, having a job in basketball, they're really
cool jobs, right, And it's like you have to join
in the party line. You can't be too disruptive or
you find yourself disruptive than selling like insurance for state
farm or something, meaning you have to kind of acquiesce
to what everyone else is doing. And I think that's

(01:11:48):
one of the things that makes us unique.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Jeff, you've always been in a cosmopolitan man outside of
advising Buster. What have you been working on recently?

Speaker 4 (01:11:57):
Well, And I can tell you this, I know you
some of my different entrepreneurial ventures icon Racing dot com.
Horse racing has been one of my most enjoyable family
things that I've ever done in my life. Jason's a
great partner on this as well. But it's the the
idea of the horse ownership, Ryan being there, living in

(01:12:17):
Louisville is it's an unbelievable family sport. I sent you
a picture with that of our whole family there at
the derby. The whole family was in Saratoga. We had
a little off day and where we went to Lake George,
and it's just you go to the barn waking up
at Saratoga or Churchill downs every morning. Ryan, I've rented
a house right on Wizard, right across the street from

(01:12:39):
the derby. My whole family was there. My brother sister
came up every morning. We're up at sunrise, get a
cup of coffee. You're on the backstretch seeing all meaning
where the barns are. You see all the derby horses,
the great like iconic trainers and jockeys and these majestic
animals in the back. Literally, my wake up at Churchill

(01:13:00):
or Saratoga in the morning might be the favorite thing
I've ever done in my life. And what's so good
about it, you experienced a little bit with your buddies,
own own almighty is it's a real family event, like
everyone can participate in it. So it's been a remarkable.
That part's been like a lifelong dream of mine. And
to actually have a horse run in the derby was remarkable.

(01:13:24):
So that's one of the things but I also and
I showed it to that, I sent some and I
did an only podcast, and I've done some other things.
But I invented a new batting helmet. Ryan, can I
show it here? Do you guys mind it? We have time? Yeah,
so one of the things, so the horse racing thing

(01:13:45):
will go to the side icon racing dot com. It's
unbelievable to be a part of I was at, you know.
And one of the other reasons too. I have a
seventeen year old son now loves playing baseball. We were
at a big tournament in Atlanta, and you know, I
see a kid and this is on one of the podcasts.
We're walking around, not even a game. My son's planing

(01:14:07):
and I see a guy throwing ninety ninety four sixteen,
seventeen years old that no one has any idea where
it's going. Right, kid gets dusted by a ball, goes down.
Next pitch is a slider. He's doing this. Then I
hear a parent or somebody from this let's go stay
in there, And I'm like, you stay in there, dude.

(01:14:29):
Everybody knows. This pitcher knows, and the hitter knows. He
has no idea where it's going and he ends up
striking out. Next kid comes up to bat, and you know,
the balls all over the place. He's three feet off
the plate and maybe fouls one off. Parents are how
hard is he throwing? And then like somebody with the

(01:14:50):
gun is yelling that was ninety three and people think
it's good even though it's like awful. And so I'm
watching this kid's three feet off the play. He fouls
off one pitch and eventually walks, meaning like if you
were going to take against this kid, you would eventually
probably get a walk. So that's what happened. When he walks,

(01:15:12):
I watch him take off an elbow guard, a risk guard,
a handguard, and a shin guard. Like I mean, he's
stacking stuff up on the plate, right, And then he
gets to first base and he puts on oven mits
and I'm thinking the one thing that's missing, the illogical
part of this. And he had the sea flap that

(01:15:33):
goes down there, but you can still eat a ball,
and the hitter knows even with the sea flap it's
not that effective. So what I did is like this
is illogical. And you remember Joe Lawrence fed yes the ballplayer,
he's made a done unbelievably. Well, he's one of the
founders of Marucci and I'd known Joe forever and the

(01:15:55):
Sense sold out from Marucci All that had a sports
protective gear company, and so I designed something in my mind.
He connected me with his engineer. The companies called Legion Sports.
They make protective football gear and now helmets and everything else.
But I was thinking to myself, someone needs to do.
It's illogical not to protect the one thing that is

(01:16:18):
a traumatic type of injury. You got elbow, wrist, hand,
all that. So I created I called it the Equalizer.
I'm going to put it on for you guys real quick,
can you hear me?

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:16:30):
Yeah, So this the vision's perfect, no different than a
sea flat. But a ball I can roll, a ball
cannot get through here. So no matter what level, if
you see it from the side, my son's using it
now and some of his teammates are using it now.
But this helmet what I hope in the long run,

(01:16:52):
one it increases youth participation from his is it creates
where you're not going to get hit in the face.
And what was the effectiveness of that one kid I
was watching that was throwing hard. It was the rational
fear that he was creating. And if you can mitigate

(01:17:15):
that does kind of down the rabbit hole. Does that
place an importance back on skill before power? If you
can mitigate the effectiveness of unskilled velocity, does that then
make the emphasis go back on people that can pitch
and know where it's going. And because now Bad knows

(01:17:37):
this from his days as an executive, there's an endless
supply of people that throw high velocity. There are you know,
gems and academies in every little small town in the
country where somebody's doing a throwing program that teaches velocity
before skill. And it's very hard to develop skill when

(01:18:00):
your whole life has been nothing but the search for power.
And so, you know, I hope that has the impact
on the game too. And I've seen it was funny
a local guy here who had Ian Desmond, local high
school coach. He goes, you know, when I was in
you know, Millage, a handful of big leaguers did have

(01:18:21):
come from here, and I was showing him the helmet
it's been in works for about a year. He goes,
you know, there was a kid. I forget the guy's name,
but he goes, he was probably fourteen fifteen, I thought
he was the best player I ever had. And this
is the guy that's had seven or eight Big leaguers.
He got hit in the face when he was fifteen,
like had to have his jaw rewired, like an orbital

(01:18:45):
bone surgery and some teeth. It was a bad one
and the kid never played baseball again. And so you think, oh,
he's not tough enough or anything. I said, what happened
to the kid? He goes, well, he was a Division
one quarterback for four years, meaning you're not tough. You
have to be to do that. Yet he wasn't willing

(01:19:05):
with that. And so I feel like the equalizer named
because I think it levels the playing field when you
and it's always same side, so you see so many
platoons when somebody when you have the platoons split bad,
it's not because the guy can't hit left handers. It's
because he's this way or this way, like switch hitters

(01:19:27):
don't have those uncomfortable at bats. And the equalizer, I
think hopefully will mitigate the nonsensical platoons that have you know,
overrun the game too. So that's my theory behind it. Anyway,
what do you.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
Think I mean I think the part you said that
really resonates with me, Jeff, is is fear. Once a
kid or a player, whether he's at the major league level,
minor league level, or amateur level, is scared. It is
really tough to coach that out of somebody because the
fear is rational. You know, getting hit by a baseball
hurts a lot, regardless of where you get hurt. But

(01:20:02):
when irreparable damage can be done, I think it really
instills a lot of fear in kids. And most kids
who have that fear in them, they do not bounce
back from that so.

Speaker 4 (01:20:11):
Well, and I want to prevent it. Mean, it's illogical
to wear an elbow guard, but not the equalizer. The
elbow guard. You get hit in the elbow, that could be,
but you get hit in the face, that ain't worth it.
And people give away at bats because it's not worth it.

(01:20:33):
That meaning, like, no one likes to get hit. But
as a parent or as anything else, you're not concerned
with your kid getting drilled in the back him eating
one in the face. You are, and you know all
the stuff, And it'll be interesting to see where we go.
But I've got an unbelievable engineer, a guy named Curtis Cruz.

(01:20:54):
We've got manufacturing up and we're kind of in the
beta phase where we're seeding the helmet out to different things.
My son has actually uh got he's playing in the
East Coast Pro showcase uh here in a couple of
weeks in Birmingham, and he's gonna wear it there. He's
kind of my guinea pig.

Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
I hope he has a good agent.

Speaker 4 (01:21:15):
I don't know if he didn't. He doesn't even need
one of that. He what he needs is uh, what
he needs is some knocks when he's there, something like that.
But it's uh, that's been a fun part too, where
I where I hope it impacts the game in a
positive way. So we got horse racing and helmets and
the v Foundation stuff and Seawan's just Seawan is a

(01:21:36):
huge advocate of it too, Ryan like he's been uh
you know, I thoroughly enjoyed all the time I've got
to spend with him over the last few years. And uh,
you know that's another and you know about it too,
that what an unbelievable organization uh that comes from sports
uh and continues to do unbelievable work where every dollar

(01:21:58):
you donate every penny you don't, and eight goes to research.
They've been blessed with an incredible endowment. ESPN has been
an unbelievable partner, and you know, celebrities like Sean McDonough
and Dick Vitale and the people that have had coach
k that have moved that organization forward over the years
have been you know, remarkable stewards of of Jimmy V's

(01:22:19):
original message. So that's another thing I'm really proud of.

Speaker 1 (01:22:24):
They play the speech every year, the famous speech Jim
Balbano gave it the sb's when he's dying in cancer.
And then they have the huge event in New York doubleheader.
From an NBA scouting perspective, it's a must attend. But
more importantly and Jeffe Thanail the head, it's the individuals
who are involved. Dick Vitale in particular, I don't know
where he is yet, but it's at least in the ten.

Speaker 4 (01:22:43):
He's in Sarasota. Oh, no, he's in the hundreds.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
Yeah, I might be over a hundred million. How much
money he's raised at this point.

Speaker 4 (01:22:49):
No, he's I've never met or seen anyone like him,
but the passion is. I mean it's authentic, it's not
for TV. I mean he liked that all the time. Uh,
and what he's done for the v Foundation has been remarkable.

Speaker 3 (01:23:02):
Jeff, we couldn't thank you enough for coming on talking
a lot about baseball, but you know, more philosophically about
the betterment of the game and some of your passions
off the field and educating the listeners to what's going
on behind the scenes for agents, players, their families. We
really appreciate your time. Thank you bad Please stay with

(01:23:23):
us through the break on Rosters to Rings. Welcome back
to Rosters to Rings. What a tremendous conversation with Jeff
Barry Ryan that that was really dynamic. It really got
me thinking a lot about how I interacted with agents

(01:23:46):
throughout my career, and I would love to get your
perspective on this because everything I've learned from you, it
feels to me like there's there's a pretty pronounced distinction
between how NBA agents participate in decisions and how League
Baseball agents and the decision I would make is in
Major League Baseball, they're a little bit more reactive. So
we're calling them up and saying their.

Speaker 2 (01:24:07):
Player has been traded, they then go into action.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
Jeff illuminated a little bit of that process about how
he would then get on the phone with player wives
and talk about pit bulls going to Toronto across the
border and those sorts of things we let them knowing
their players are getting drafted. It seems to me from
your experience that agents in the NBA are a little

(01:24:32):
bit more proactive and trying to affect outcomes on behalf
of their players. So I'd be curious just your thoughts
on that, like, did you see it that way or
was it different in your experience now?

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
I think that generally is the case thatad I started
on in NBA about twenty two years ago at this point,
and I think the evolution of the player empowerment era
to some extents the players slash agents empowerment era because
the agents are doing a lot of the pushing behind
the scenes. The NBA has done a nice job recently
trying to level the playing field a little bit. And

(01:25:03):
what I mean by that that is, I thought, you know,
a handful of years ago, there were some pretty significant
issues league wide in terms of in the pre draft
process agents withholding medical records, physicals and things like that
from certain teams and trying to steer a player toward
one team or steer them away from a team. That
doesn't happen as much anymore. Of the league in the

(01:25:25):
less collective bargain agreement addressed a lot of that, and
now those are more evenly distributed. And then the other thing, frankly,
the tampering. I think the NBA has done a nice
job of that as well. Now to be blunted. It
has taken some of the omph out of free agency.
I was in Atlanta all week last week for NBA TV,
as you know, doing shows and doing this podcast with

(01:25:45):
you from the hotel down there, and a lot of
the big names that once we hit six o'clock on
June thirtieth, were already off the board because most of
them redid deals with their current team. And that's the advantage.
Now the incoming teams have a huge advantage in terms
of resigning their own player because what was happening in
the past is the cheaters, to some extent, were being rewarded.
The guys who actually waited until free agency started that

(01:26:07):
would make calls. If you made calls, I used to
be at midnight. Now it's at six ZHO one DM
on June thirtieth, you'd call and say, oh, this guy's
actually he's gone.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
He's gone.

Speaker 1 (01:26:15):
So well, how did somebody negotiate a deal in thirty seconds?
That seems impossible. I just called one minute after the deadline.
You say he's already committed. You know, so obviously there
were there were some issues there. So I would say
the NBA has proactively taken some steps. But yeah, if
the players have a lot of power and continue to
in the NBA, which I think they will, that means
by their extension, by extension, their agents have a lot

(01:26:36):
of control and influence, and that's why you've got to
be careful. On the team side. You need to maintain
I would say at least neutral relationships. You hope the
relationships are good, that obviously, but you know, it gets
heated at times, like any people who are on different
sides of it and negotiating table would attest to. But
you try to be respectful. And one of the other
things I should mention that is that a lot of

(01:26:58):
teams now are looking at some of the agents. Jeff
Berry is a senior advisor for the San Francisco Giants.
As he mentioned, in the NBA, some of the guys
running teams, Leon Rose with the New York Knicks, Rob
Polenka with the LA Lakers, and then Bob Myers, who
did a great job on four championships with the Warriors
and now is on ESPN. They were on the player

(01:27:20):
representation side before crossing over the team side. So it
seems like maybe Jeff's I don't know if he's the
first stat I'm sure there are others, but I think
that's a trend that will continue across sports as those
guys become you know, they're so good at obviously having
relationships with players and negotiating contracts, and I think a
lot of that came through in the interview we just
did with Jeff Barrett.

Speaker 3 (01:27:38):
I think it's fascinating, Ryan, when I hear you talk
about the NBA, and you know, you read these headlines
of you know, a player has requested a trade or
he's specified exactly where he wants to be traded. We
just didn't see that too much on the baseball side
of things. And you know, one thing that I think
Jeff shed some light on was this notion that negotiations

(01:27:58):
have become a little bit different over the time in
his career, where now it's a little bit more formulaic
and people are calling him and asking him for information
without yielding information in return. I would tell you that
that just wasn't the way I conducted myself in those processes.
Like I was a relationship person, I think Jeff was
as well. So like when we got on the phone,

(01:28:19):
we were spending fifteen to twenty minutes talking about the
state of the game and progress, and you were viving
creatively as to how the game could improve, and then
we would get to talking about his clients that we
had interest in. And I always viewed things from a
negotiation standpoint, as I always wanted to offer something that
was in the range of fair to start with. I

(01:28:39):
never subscribe to the theory I heard people talk about
it all the time with this notion of like, well,
it didn't hurt to ask, and it's like, I never
viewed it that way, because I think your integrity is
on the line when you offer something that the other
side should not accept, and by so doing, you're kind
of almost putting their livelihood in jeopardy because if they
accepted that, they could be made to look a fool
and they could lose alliance or they could lose their job.

(01:29:02):
I always felt like that wasn't something that it didn't
hurt to ask. It did hurt to ask, Like we
should be in the game to try to win these deals,
but someone presenting creatively win win negotiation, so that it
also is a win for the person you're talking to,
because you should aspire to do business with that person
in the future. And I treated every negotiation as a
means to have an easier and more seamless next negotiation

(01:29:23):
with somebody. I think you can only do that if
you treat people fairly, you listen to their needs, and
you try to deliver as much as you can to
them while also delivering more to the team that you're representing.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
That's a great perspective that and one I completely agree with. Yeah,
it never hurts to ask. I've heard that from especially
younger folks who are trying to make a name for
themselves climb the ladder. But you're absolutely right. Your reputation
and credibility is everything in this industry, and that cuts
across NBA, Major League Baseball.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
And others.

Speaker 1 (01:29:54):
So you never want to be the guy where if
somebody on the other side sees your name pop up
on color ID, they send it right to voicemail or
ignore your text. That a GM who I liked a
lot personally, but he would text trade ideas that were
the most nonsensical, you know, and so I think eventually
I just put him on that do not disturb or
the phone doesn't pay you. You just see the message
whenever you look down at it, because it was it

(01:30:15):
was bottom fishing, right, and that that was pretty tiring
that that. I don't think there's at least I hope
you realized there was no way that I was going
to say yesterday of those deals. And to the extent
where he kept doing it, it was kind of insulting,
but you know that was his his mo and his philosophy.
But especially if you're younger coming up the rank, so
we're trying to establish a foothold. Don't do that because
that you never want to be the guy where you know,

(01:30:37):
Jeff Aerry is a big time agent when he was
a big time agent. You never want to be the
one where he kind of rolls his eyes and says, oh,
this is going to be some bs. Your reputation, your
name is everything, and as we've discussed on the show
that I think we will continue to. You work for
a couple Major League Baseball teams in Denver, Texas and Minnesota.
I worked for the Celtics and Suns. It is very rare,

(01:30:58):
almost impossible now days to start your career with one team,
continue to climb the ladder and just stay with that
team forever, thirty forty fifty years. On the front office side,
the coaching side, whatever it may be, you're going to
move around, and what moves around with you, obviously is
a reputation and whether people take you seriously or not.
So I think that's something that hopefully you and I
have emphasized on this show, and I'm sure we'll continue

(01:31:21):
to do so going forward.

Speaker 3 (01:31:22):
Yeah, Ryan, that experience resonates with me. We had a
trade discussion in Minnesota where one of our assistant gms
brought into this room this concept that was presented to
him by a fellow assistant GM at the time. Then
our leader of the group said it, well, Jesus, seems
pretty compelling. I'm going to get on the phone with
the general manager see if we can knock this out.

(01:31:43):
He calls a general manager and said, who said we
would have no interest in doing that. Who the hell
presented that to you? And you're like, oh boy, So
that person immediately went on the do not reply to list.
But I also, you know, just the last thing I'll
say about this is it's a relationship business, and I
think if you approach it from that perspective, you're going
to have a longer career. It just goes to show,

(01:32:05):
you know, movies portray our relationships with agents as being
very contentious and caustic and animated, and sure it gets
that way from time to time, as you reference, but
it's far few and far between. And I always viewed
it as I want nothing more than to play pay
the players a lot of money, because if we're paying
them a lot, that means they performed exceptionally well for
the team. Hopefully that as a result, the team did

(01:32:27):
very well. We would like nothing more than to reward
the player for helping the team do very well. So
it feels as if we're on the opposite side of
the ledger, but in practice we're both really pulling on
the same side of the rope. It works out exceptionally
well for both the agent, the player, and the team.
If the player performs at extremely high level and demands
a very high salary.

Speaker 1 (01:32:48):
And my final point on at that is leverage. How
do you take advantage of it? I do think there's
a right and a wrong way to do it, and
that is applicable right now in the NBA with the
restricted free agency because the cap space around the league
is generally dried up. The two teams with the remaining
cap space, the Brooklyn Nets and now the Utah Jazz
after recent trade, they're not necessarily looking to use it

(01:33:08):
to improve that, so they have a ton of leverage.
And I'm talking about the Brooklyn Nets with Cam Thomas,
the Chicago Bulls.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
With Josh Kitty.

Speaker 1 (01:33:16):
I could go on on Jonathan Minga in Golden State
and Quentin Grimes and Philadelphia.

Speaker 2 (01:33:21):
Those are the main four.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
So do you take advantage of it to try to
get a good deal, which I think is it's business
one on one? Or are you punitive with it? Are
are you? And do you drive a wedge between the
relationship with the franchise in that player and ordist agent.
It's a fine line pad there's a delicate balance there,
as you know, but that's one of the things that
people look at because if you do this long enough,

(01:33:42):
is you and I both know at some point the
table is going to be reversed and the other side
the ones that's going to have the leverage. And if
you handle it appropriately, I think and hope you'll be
rewarding kinds. And if you use it in a punitive
vindictive nature, be careful what you wish for, because the
train always comes back around the track, right.

Speaker 3 (01:34:01):
I think that's an excellent point. I always view that
one of the measures of a person is how do
you handle when you have leverage? And you just said
it beautifully. It's like it really is an assessment of
your character, which I think is vital for your reputation
and your success in your career. Well, thanks to all
the listeners for staying tuned to Roster and Rings. A

(01:34:21):
great conversation with Jeff Barry, really a great perspective on
Major League Baseball behind the scenes from an agent's perspective.
We'll see you next week on Rosters to Rings. Please
join me host That Levine, Ryan McDonough and other general

(01:34:42):
managers every week for Roster Syrings on Apple, Spotify, or
wherever you get your podcasts.

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