A.J. Hinch Managing Players and the Front Office

Thad and Ryan welcome Detroit manager A.J. Hinch to the episode and discuss relating to players and management, tough discussions with key players, and A.J.'s unique rise in a time of legendary managers in MLB. Ryan and Thad also start the show with a new segment based on listener questions.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome back to Rosters to Rings Ryan McDonough with Thad
Levine as always that we have an exciting show today.
We have the manager of the Major League Baseball leading
Detroit Tigers joining us. And also we've started doing something
new on Rosters to Rings that's taking questions from our
listeners and fans who please submit those questions on social media.

(00:26):
We'll try to get to as many of them as
we can. But that one of the things that you
and I talked about that we really want to do,
not only on this show but going forward, is react
from a front office perspective to different big events that
are happening across sports. And where I want to go
with you today is Major League Baseball and the situation
that's developed in Boston over the last few weeks with

(00:48):
the Red Sox and some of the disagreement, the breakdown
and communication between their front office led by Craig Breslow
and their star Rafael Deverge of star Designated Hitter. That
why don't you take our listeners kind of behind the
curtain and give us to your reaction to what's going
on in Boston.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, clearly what we see as fans, because you and
I are both fans. Here is a player that was
pretty disgruntled, and so I try to dig down what
transpired here, and I rewind to the off season when
they acquired Alex Bregman, and I just want to get
your perspective on this, Ryan, Like, when you're acquiring players,
how much do you feel obliged to let your existing
players that those acquisitions are taking place. I always felt

(01:27):
it was a situation where it behooved us to stay
ahead of the communication as best we can. But we're
informing players, we're not really asking for permission. Certainly, when
you get to a point where you're pursuing a player
such as Alex Bregman who plays the same position as
Raphael Dever's your star player, they're both third basemen, it
would be ideal to get ahead of that and communicate
a forehand. That didn't happen in this case, and that

(01:48):
seemed to be the start of the issue.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, I think that communication is so important. However, at
the same time, one of the realities of pro sports
is that what's best for the team isn't always what's
best for each individual player, right, especially if you're bringing
in a talented player who may cause a player to
shift positions or play less or put up less numbers,
especially as that player is approaching free agency, and then

(02:11):
it impacts the contract as well. We've seen that across
sports and organizations that balance and blend is very difficult.
So that where do you think things kind of went
off track in Boston Because one of the things you
and I have talked about is the communication and looking
at the Red Sox situation, I think that triangle is
so important with communication from the front office to the

(02:32):
clubhouse to the player or players. In Boston, it seems
like there's been come some kind of breakdown because I
see the quotes from Raphael Devers, from Craig Reslo, from
Alex Khorr, the manager, it seems like they're saying things
that are somewhat different.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, they just don't seem like they're on the same page,
which is a little bit unfortunate because I think that
leads to a lot of breeds discontent across the three platforms.
And when you see that, the fact that the general
manager is being attributed to having had the direct conversation
with the player. I don't know about you, Ryan, but
in my career, very very rarely did I, ever, or

(03:07):
did the general manager I was working forever have a
direct conversation with a player absent of the manager or
the head coach being centrally involved in that. The quotation
suggests that maybe they weren't all in the same page here.
I think that then leaves the door wide open for
a lot of doubt. And I think the other communication
that is key to this one is the fact that
at some point they told him, hey, we think you're

(03:29):
better as a DH which is to say we think
Bregman is a better third baseman. But what the player
is probably hearing in this case is you don't believe
in me defensively. So now all of a sudden, he's
feeling that the team doesn't really have a lot of
faith in him. Subsequently, they're now asking him to play
a position he's never played before. So you didn't think
I was good enough to play the position that I'm

(03:49):
very experienced in. Now you're asking me to play a
position I've never played before, so he thinks they're not
really putting him in the best position to succeed. I
think that breeds another level of discontent in feeling devalued
by your franchise. Which is really damning to this. So
I think that's another real important factor in this discussion.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
So the question we got that from one of our
listeners was, you know, do you remember other situations like this?
How common or uncommon is this with devs? You know,
going into the year anticipating that he was going to
be the designated hitter primarily, if not exclusively, And then
I think, you know, one of the things as I
look at that, that you never want to do from
a team perspective is put a player in a position

(04:30):
to fail. And so I think that's, you know, may
lead to some of the turmoil and some of the
mixed messages out of Boston because I think if you're
Raphael Devers or the people around him, you're worried in
terms of throwing him out there for a team that's
right around five hundred and we know the expectations to
come along with playing for the Boston Red Sox, putting
him in there kind of midstream. Keep in mind, he
didn't have an off season or a spring training to

(04:52):
prepare for this. I think that's one of the things
that's concerning that from an organizational perspective, and may have
led to some tension and friction in this situation.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Will call me a glass half full guy. But I
assume every player aspires to be a team player. So
why is Rafaeld Devers acting in a way that that
is not supportive of that? And I look at it
and say, you know, to your point, he's played eighty
two hundred plus defensive innings in his major league career.
He's spent zero of those at first base.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
I think it's.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Easy for fans to criticize him and say, well, you know,
Bryce Harper moved from the outfield to first base when
they had Schwarburn Castianos moving to the outfield. He also
this offseason, by the way, made a public that if
they were able to acquire Pete Alonzo, he'd move right
back to the outfield. You've seen guys like Mooki Betts
move from rightfield, where he was a gold Glover, to
play second base and then shortstop. You've seen Wilson Contreras

(05:41):
and Saint Louis move from back from behind the plate
to first base. The key though in all those situations
they had at least spring training, if not also the
entire offseason to prepare. In this case, Rafaeld Evers was
being asked to do this on the fly, and I
think that's another way where he is a player probably
doubted whether they were putting him the best positions to succeed.
Mirror that up with the fact that he felt blindsided

(06:03):
still by the move in the offseason and the fact
that the communication was inconsistent, I think it leaves him
standing on a position where maybe he wouldn't have otherwise,
where he's now saying, I'm going to put myself first
because it doesn't feel like the team is doing it
in this case. And I think that's where we're starting
to see a little bit of a fissure. And when
you see these types of undercurrents, I think it's really
difficult to compete in the backdrop of that. It's so

(06:26):
tough to win when you have these undercurrents, especially when
your star players are involved. It just makes that task
so much more daunting. And right in your career in
the NBA, have you sens us when you were in
the seat, did you ever talk to players directly about
changing positions or is that conversations that always went through
the head coach.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
I think it should always have to go through the
head coach. That because I think when you go directly,
either as an executive or an owner, even to the
players and tell them one thing, if it's not exactly
what the head coach or the manager wants, then you
undermine the situation and you break down trust. In some ways,
I view it like parenting, where if your kid hear
is no from one parents, you can't let them go

(07:07):
to the other one and here, yes, if they want
candy or whatever it is. You have to be consistent
and aligned in your message messaging, and I think there's
no quicker way to break down the relationship, you know,
than the players in the clubhouse or the dugout looking
upstairs and saying, well, the manager, head coach, he's not
really in charge here. Those are the guys in charge,
and I'm going to listen to them. And that got
creates a ton of friction, and we've seen it, I think,

(07:28):
not only across the NBA, but across sports, and the
good organizations don't do that. There is a uniform, consistent
messaging where there's no end around from their player's perspective,
if the manager or head coach tells you to do something,
it's an organizational decision. And I think the best organizations
stand behind that.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
And Ryan, I think you're you're saying something that sounds
so simple and so business savvy, and I think fans
would be surprised to hear how few franchises are run
exactly the way you just described. It seems so elementary,
it's so fun, foundational to success. But it's a time
honor tradition where managers and head coaches will say to players, hey,

(08:08):
this isn't my call when he sees that it's unpopular
as a player. It's the guys upstairs. And sometimes I've
even had managers tell me, hey, I'm doing that or
I did that, but don't worry. I'm still in line
with what you're saying. But I've got to keep the
morale of the clubhouse going. But it's toxic, and those
types of undercurrents are so so problematic to trying to
achieve your ultimate goal, which is winning at the highest level.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Like a lot of things in pro sports, it's easy
to say, it's difficult to do and difficult to execute
consistently when you have different players, agents, the fans, the media,
everybody has an opinion, and especially when you're losing, things
aren't going great on the court or the field. That
pressure is magnified, It's intensified, and that's where you see
the fissures break down if that alignment is not one percent.

(08:55):
We have a great interview coming up with Detroit Tigers
manager AJ Hinch of the major League leading Tigers at
the best record in baseball at this point. He is
stad Levine. I am Ryan mcdonoughs. Stick with us, will
be right back after this with Aj Hinch.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Welcome back to rosters, to rings. Here with Ryan McDonough
were ecstatic to be bringing on our guest, AJ Hinch,
manager of the first place Detroit Tigers. AJ grew up
in Oklahoma, got drafted out of high school by the
Chicago White Sox, then ended up going to Stanford, where
he was drafted again out of junior year by the
Minnesota Twins, went back for his senior season and got

(09:38):
drafted by the Oakland Athletics. He had a seven year
major league career before he segued into the front office
and then in two thousand and nine, Aj was a trailblazer.
He became the first manager with limited to no managerial
experience as he took the helm of the Arizona Diamondbacks.
He was a manager for two seasons, and then he
returned to the front office in San Diego, where he

(09:59):
was a conciliary to the general manager in a variety
of leadership roles. Started with the Houston Astros in twenty fifteen,
spent five seasons with them, capping it off with a
World Series championship in twenty seventeen, and just following one
game short in twenty nineteen, finishing his career there with
three consecutive one hundred plus win seasons. He joined the

(10:20):
Detroit Tigers, where he's now in his fifth season as
the manager. He's not only the manager of the first
place Detroit Tigers, but the best record in all of
Major League Baseball. Welcome to the show, AJ. We're ecstatic
to Avion.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
Thank you for having me, and thanks for the memories
walking down memory Lane.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
We have a lot of friends along the way. I
guess I also should have included in the intro that
AJ is a really good friend of mine and a
mentor throughout my career.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
AJ.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
One thing I just we wanted to touch on in
our first segment. We tried to dissect what transpired in
Boston between Raphael Devers in their front office when they
tried to move him to first base. So much as
said of the game right now, of analytics, but I
want to talk to you about for a second, is
the human side of things. And you guys faced a
similar challenge when you had to approach jave Baias, who

(11:10):
is one of your star players, you're a highest paid player,
and talked to him about the proposition of no longer
being your feature short stuff, but rather taking on a
different role than the team of being a super utility
player roster's rings. We try to take fans behind the
scenes and understand what those conversations are like, can you
just help us, help us understand how did you prepare
for that conversation and how did you present that to Hovey.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yeah, it's an interesting, you know story, given the background
when I got to know Hovey from Afar. You know,
you see, like the the the elmago, the personality, the shades,
the sort of bigger than life personality and aura around

(11:54):
him when he was with the Chicago Cubs and when
we signed him. One of the things that I that
I really worked hard on was to try to figure
out what was important to him, like what made him tick,
Like what what what was what was the thing that
could unlock you know, this ability that we could all
see pretty naturally, but but maybe not as consistently as

(12:17):
we want. And so, you know, I over the years,
I've traveled to Puerto Rico, spent some time with him.
He took me to his house, He's taken me to
his uh, his properties around Puerto Rico and show some
of the ways that he grew up and some of
the ways that he you know that that the things
that were important to him. And so that laid a
foundation of trust that that allowed me to just be

(12:38):
super direct with him with what we needed. And when
last year, when when he was hurt, you know, he
watched a team grow up in front of his own eyes,
and he saw us start to utilize the roster. He
saw us start to bring young guys up and give
him opportunity. And so when he got healthy, we just
had an open conversation about like, hey, what can I

(13:00):
do to help us win? And when I say win,
it's always easy for people to think that that's the
highest priority for everybody, but it truly is for hobby.
Like one of the things I learned when I go
in Puerto Rico or Go talk about his background. He
talks about the early years with the Cubs and how
important and how cool of a run it was when

(13:21):
they won the World Series, and he talks about the
feeling at the end of the day of winning and
what that means to him, and so winning was big
priority for him. And I got to shoot it straight
with him, like, if you want to win, and you
want to win here in Detroit, this is what we
need from you. And he was all in from the
very beginning. And I had mentioned second base, third base, shortstop,

(13:44):
a little bit of center field, and I told him
the truth, and I told him this is the best
way that he could help us win. And he took
it and ran with it and has been a central
figure on a good team winning a lot of games
because of of the way he handled that age.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
I think the three of us all started in pro
sports around the same time, late nineties, early two thousands,
and one of the trends at that time was that
if you started down one track, usually stayed on that track.
And what I mean is if you started on the
front office track, you ended up in the front office.
If you started on the coaching or managerial track you
ended up there, You've done both. Recently in the NBA,

(14:24):
some of the most successful coaches and executives have crossed over.
I think of Steve Kerr, who ran the Suns front
office and now was won four championships in Golden State.
Brad Stevens did a great job on the sideline for
the Celtics and now has moved upstairs and won the
championship last year in Boston. What advantages do you think
your front office experience has given you and what did
you learn in that time has helped you as a manager.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, no, great question, and thanks for bringing that up,
because it is part of my story that I you know,
I'd done a lot of different things as a player.
You know, I thought that I was going to play
for twenty years and and be great and never have
to work again, and then just and just kind of
right off into the sunset with this legendary career. And
that wasn't how it played out. So when I when

(15:08):
I stopped playing, the front office to me was like
a fresh new start. I went from being an aging
player to a young executive, like literally overnight. When I
got hired. The people looked at me differently. You know,
I was young, and I was new, and I was fresh,
and I had playing experience, and I learned a ton
during that time in the in the front office. Number One,

(15:31):
I learned what it takes for a player to get
from point A to point Z, right like from the
draft or from the Dominican Academy and across the board
and and knocking on the door of the big leagues.
You know, what what is player development about? What is
player evaluation about? How does nutrition play into fact routines?

(15:51):
Just the growth of a player from from from one
area of the organization to the to the highest level.
And so then when I became the manager or the Diamondbacks,
I tried to learn every player as what their story
was or where they were in that development curve and
what I could do to add to it to make
them better at the major league level. So understanding the

(16:15):
you know, like I've learned a long time ago. For
me to be an effective coach, I need a lot
of people to be really good at their job behind
the scenes, draft development, you know, player procurement, the health,
the wellness, the mental side of the sport and so

(16:35):
and for us to maximize what we're doing in the
big leagues. All of those people need me to be
effective at my job as well, and so that it
created a partnership of understanding what a successful franchise needs,
and it needs everyone. It's not just the man out
front who is who is maybe in front of the
camera the most or the one who is the biggest boss.

(16:57):
You know, as a president of baseball, ops or any
any sport, it's a partnership where everybody is relying on
each other to be a lead at their job. Then
we all get to win. Aha.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
On that front. You know, the game is always evolving,
but you were really at the forefront of one of
the most prominent evolutions what you've seen in the last decade,
which is you know, you look at the managers today
and I'd like for you to talk about some of
these guys, but Kevin Cash, Ruccobaldelli, Stephen Vote, those guys
wouldn't have been able to have the success or having
today if they broke in when you broke in in

(17:30):
two thousand and nine. How much has that landscape changed.
How tough was it for you in two thousand and
nine to have the success you then ultimately had in
Houston and now in Detroit.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, so that that was a rough time in two
thousand and nine because it was not widely accepted that
that you could go a different route to a leadership
position in the dugout or on the sideline any sport
it was, you had a regimented, you know, path to
that job was. You know, you played, you went down

(18:03):
through the minor leagues, You migrated across the minor leagues
and various roles and eventually manage and then eventually get
to a coaching staff. You spend some time in that
coaching staff, and then you eventually get elevated to a
leadership position. And that you know, I look back at
that two thousand and nine in the winter meetings after
that year, we had a manager picture and I look

(18:25):
twelve years old compared to all the men, all the
other managers like my first time, and it's legends. It's
Bobby Cox and pdo Gaston, it's you know, Tony LaRussa
and Dusty Baker like legend, Jim Leland like legends in
our game that we're managing at that time. And then
there was this kid over in the corner just trying
not to mess up. And I look back at that

(18:46):
now and I, if anything, I think it it you know,
my time one. It made me a way stronger person,
a way stronger leader, a curious you know mind, and
how to how to be good at this job. And
that helped me moving forward. But it also opened the
door for maybe a different path for people to get

(19:10):
into a leadership position without doing it the way we've
always done it, which is the biggest trap of not evolving,
is let's do it the same way we've always done
it and see what happens. I'm very thankful for that
first opportunity, despite it being rocky and not accepted and
widely criticized. That set me up for you know, future

(19:34):
opportunities in Houston and now Detroit where I can be
a better version of that leader that Josh Burns who
hired me, originally felt like I was going to be
in the dugout.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
You know, It's funny, every one of our positions has
had significant evolution at some point. I remember when I
was hired first by the Colorado Rockies, by the same
Josh Burns you just referenced a good friend to both
a j and myself. I walked into the office and
I had just finished getting an MBA at UCLA, and
I told the general manager that I had an MBA.

(20:07):
He said, you played in the NBA, to which I said, no,
I have an MBA. It's like, what position did you play?
I was like shooting guard. But it just goes to show,
like how the skill sets for some of these roles
have changed so dramatically over our careers and for positive right, Like,
the game is constantly evolving, and it does it sometimes systematically.
And when you reference that picture of those storied managers,

(20:29):
quite a few of whom have become Hall of famers.
That was an error where managers had a very different
skill set in my opinion. You know they were it
was they established what the way the whole team was
going to play, and if you didn't play by their standards,
you typically got traded. And so it was it was
one way for the whole roster. And now Aja, when
you're managing, it's individualized for every single player. And if

(20:53):
you're not doing that, if you're not the team strategist
and psychologist, you're not excelling in today's game. And no
longer can you just say the skill set is to
glower at umpires and kick dirt on them periodically and
then say it's my way or the highway, like you're
one of the people on this team, but you're no
longer the central like forward facing person who is the
biggest personality, and you've got a tailor to every single

(21:15):
player on your on your roster.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah, so coaching is interesting. So I remember when I
walked out from my first game as manager of the
Diamondbacks and there was a middle aged fan holding up
a sign that was like, what does AJ stand for?
A joke? Like, no one wanted somebody that was either
younger or different path or or inexperienced in those roles.

(21:39):
And that's because everybody relied on that person to be managerial,
that person to to be the the governing voice for
the team. And that's still the case, where the head
coach or the or the manager is the governing voice.
It's the way we do it is a lot differently
because we've learned it's no longer every player adapts to

(22:03):
the manager entirely. They do. There are cultures, there is
a standard, there is an operating way that I'm going
to do it differently than other managers around the game.
But my job, in my coach's job, is to adapt
to the players. You can call it generational, you can
call it you know, the best way to make that

(22:23):
person the best player you can. However, however you want
to describe it. It's our job is to make the
players better and we have to adapt to them, like
their background, their learning style, how do they are they texters?
Are they do you meet them face to face? Can
you scold them or do you need to hug on
them and love on them a little bit more? What's

(22:45):
their upbringing? Did they have a male adult figure in
their life growing up? And how does that impact their
you know, the way they learn. I mean, there's so
much that that goes into investing in how you coach.
That is not just I'm the boss, listen to me,
I know everything. That is not the way that modern
coaching is accepted now, nor is it is it effective.

(23:09):
And the point of coaching is to be effective by
making your players better and get the best performance out
of them. It's not to sit up on a pedestal
and act like you're the only one in the dugout
that knows something about the sport. That's a trap and
it's something that I think as managing has changed. Information

(23:29):
has evolved, the players and their upbringing is different. We
have to evolve with the times, and the most effective
coaches do AJ.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
In the intro of Thad mentioned your playing career nineteen
ninety two. You're a National Gatorade Player of the Year.
You went to Stanford or an early round pick, second
third round pick, being drafted a couple times, and going
back to school. The question I have for you is
about Spencer Torkelsen, because I think when you are the
number one overall pick in any sport, in any draft,

(24:02):
that comes with an added level of pressure and added
level of scrutiny. We all know the lists of the
great all time number one picks in each sport and
the guys who are considered busts or have failed. Torkelsen,
obviously highly touted, drafted by the Tigers number one overall
in twenty twenty, struggled a bit in his career, especially
as a rookie in twenty twenty two before recently breaking out.

(24:23):
How have you worked with him and how have you
helped manage the peaks and valleys of Torkelsen's career, which
is certainly on an upswing. Yeah, I think it's I
think it's tough being number one overall pick in this era.
One is there's no patience whatsoever, Like there's you're not
allowed to struggle, and you're not allowed to develop slow

(24:43):
enough like you have to. They're expected to carry the
franchise from the beginning. I think one thing that fans
may not always love is when when you have the
one one overall pick. The majority of time, now some
of the processes in the different sports have changed. When
you and get the number one pick and not necessarily
be the worst team, but generally speaking, you are one

(25:05):
of the worst teams and you have the one to
one pick.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
So what does that fan base want? What are the
coaches want? What does the manager or head coach want?
They want that guy to like fix it, Like they
want that guy to be the headliner for the next
good team for that franchise, And I think Torque had
a little bit of that here. Both he and Casey
Mayes were sort of annoyed the like, hey, better times

(25:31):
are ahead for this franchise because they were picked one
to one at a time where the team was, you know,
one of the worst teams in baseball and that that
doesn't always line up with perfect development. And I think
what I've tried to do with Torque is just keep
them grounded yet continue to push him, Like, just have
them realize that failure is a part of it and

(25:51):
he doesn't have to carry the entire team. Now, when
he had thirty homers a couple of years ago and
everybody was expecting him to, like now be the best
player on this new emerging team, my job was just
to keep him center focused on contributing to a win. Uh,
be better at zone discipline, get himself better at first base.
He's he's not the sole reason that that that we're losing,

(26:14):
and he doesn't have to be the sole reason that
we're winning, and and kind of lift some of that
burden that gets put on guys like him. He's had
to go through swing changes, he's had to go through demotions,
he's had to go through you know, uh people not
expecting him to contribute, and now he's you know, borderline
All Star and and is gonna it has a chance

(26:35):
to potentially finish off one of the most successful first
halfs of his career and be the exact player everybody
wanted him to be. But didn't want to give him
the time to to develop to that point that to
me has been Torque has been awesome. Case He's been awesome,
and I think the noise around him is starting to

(26:56):
subside that that that they have to be what our
expectations aren't. Just let them be the best version of
them and it's pretty good and we're going to like
their career, you know.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Aja, you also shed light on something that is a
reality of sports too, which is it's tough to tank
and to you know, the draft lotteries are designed to
dissuade teams from tanking, but not every draft is created equal,
you know, not every one one is created equal. And
I think in the in the sport, Casey Mize and
Spencer Torcals were you know, unilaterally viewed as the number

(27:29):
one picks in their drafts. But it's a little bit
different year over here, right Like the Washington Nationals picked
one twice and they got Steven Strasburg and Bryce Harper.
You know that the strength of those drafts may have
been just at a slightly different level when you were
in Houston. They weren't all one one picks, but you
get Carlos Korea Bregman and Kyle Tucker in the top
five picks. So it's sometimes it's the strength of the

(27:50):
draft and sometimes the burden of being the one one
is you're compared to other one ones and not all
one ones are created equal.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, well I had so a Zona, We had Justin
Upton as the one one as well, And like the
issue with with that high a draft pick is we
compare them to the outliers, like those Hall of famers,
those those those players that are like they carry the
whole franchise. They're actually more outliers than common, but yet

(28:20):
we want to make them common because you're drafted one one.
So I think it's all it's all parts. And I
even fall victim sometimes that in other sports that I follow,
that you expect this meteoric rise when it's no longer.
So I mean, like Justin Upton had a really good career,
Torque and Casey are going to have really good careers.
But if they are not sort of the outlier hall

(28:43):
of fame, you know, franchise retiring numbers. I mean, if
you just look around, like not everybody is is pecked
in order, like you always redraft, it's never the same
like we're not perfect at the draft order. The player
at the time of the draft is not always the
best player in that draft ten years from now. Yet

(29:03):
we hold everybody accountable to like you were, you were
drafted here, you need to be this. And that's where
it's unfair to the to the players, Like I understand,
like we always want more. I just try to have
some rational beliefs in in in how hard it is
to to find that that that player that you know,

(29:26):
everybody expects to be, you know, their number retired, there,
their plaque to be enshrined in Cooperstown. It's okay. If
it's not that and you're drafted one one, you can
still be an incredibly good player on incredible good teams
and we should accept that.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, you just mentioned it annoying somebody. The savior of
franchise is really a moniker. Very few can actually live
up to. You know, similar corollary as I remember when
I was in Texas. You know, all these national pundits
anoint a number one prospect in the game, and jerks
and Profar was the number one prospect the game. It
just so happens the two previous ones were Mike Trout

(30:03):
and Bryce Harper, so there was an expectation that he
was going to deliver at that level. He's turned out
to be a solid average major league player and played
for a long time, but no one was going to
live up to those standards. But that was what the
fans expected because he was the next in the line,
and the previous two guys turned out to be you know,
you know, Hall of Fame caliber players.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Yeah, I mean, and what if we're wrong as a
whole industry, Like it doesn't we're not always right, like
just as humans, like, you know, we we have these lists,
and you know, Terre Skougel was a ninth, ninth round
pick and he's now arguably the best pitcher in baseball.
Like like it's not a linear like exercise for a lifetime.

(30:43):
Like just because you get annoyed the best prospect doesn't
make you the best player. Just because you are passed
over eight times thirty, you know, and picked in the
ninth round doesn't mean that you can't be the best
pitcher in baseball. Like I mean, that's just that's just
common of common knowledge that that you know, the process

(31:04):
on the front end doesn't always you know, you know,
predict what the future is and.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
As we record this show, the NBA Finals are going
to get started soon. And I believe that of the
ten starters on the OKAC Thunder and the Indiana Pacers,
one of them was a top ten pick. Chet Holmgren
was drafted in the top ten. He was third overall
by OKC. The other nine guys on the court were
drafted between eleven and undraft. Some of them were undrafted.
Lou Dort defensive stopper for OKC. So yeah, that does

(31:32):
crossover sports too. Where I want to go now with you,
AJ is without giving away any trade secrets of divulging
competitive advantages. How is the game changed from when you
were a player to now as a manager with the
use of data. I think from a fans perspective, some
of the shifts the pre pitch movement and set up
is pretty interesting.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
How has that evolved?

Speaker 1 (31:52):
And how do you weigh managing that in terms of
looking at the number, you know, the numbers, but then
going against what the numbers say at as times.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yeah, So I think I think if we would just
replace like analytics and numbers with information, we would all
feel better about the interpretation of like what how does
that impact say hey, I use more information in my job,
or a player uses more information in their job. We
would think, oh, yeah, cool, But all of a sudden
you're saying, hey, he's using numbers or analytics, and everyone

(32:23):
freaks out right, So I think I think it just
being a forward topic has changed over the years, Like
we measure everything now, so we can you know, we
used to talk about lateral range and now we can
literally measure it and see if if an infielder goes
to the right or to the left better. We obviously
have gone through the shifting, the defensive positioning. We can

(32:46):
now sort of measure the value of that and where
somebody is going to get to them to them. But
it's still players, you know, It's still it's still humans
that are that are doing it. So we utilize information,
you know, all the time in everything that we do,
you know. But I always say you have to combine
what you see with what you know. You know, what
I see is still you know, is that player you

(33:07):
know in the ready position, does his pre pitch start
at the right time, does he make the right move,
does he read the ball with his eyes? You know? Well,
I can sometimes confirm that with out feel routes, or
I can confirm that with burst, or I can confirm
that with with with a bunch of information. But there's

(33:28):
still a human element to this that we have to
pay attention to. So I you know, every player is different.
There are some players that want every pitch metric of
the opposing pitcher and that's how they talk, that's how
they were raised, what went on in college, or maybe
they were raised in high school that way, and they
can hear eighteen vert with three horizontal and it clicks

(33:50):
to them what that means. But for every player that's
like that, there's another player that just wants to say, hey,
it's a carry fastball with a little bit of run
towards you, so you know, to deliver the barrel in
the right spot. We got to figure out which is which,
which player can handle information and which player you know,
needs it, needs it translated a little bit differently, and

(34:12):
we're okay with that. You know, it doesn't it's not
a one size fits all. I use information to make
a ton of decisions. And I would ask anybody if
someone's running a team or running something for you, would
you want them to have the most information available to
make good decisions and the answer is yes, So we're
not you know, we are not like throw the numbers

(34:34):
at the players and and you know, let them interpret
it how how it goes. We use it as as
a way to to to to prepare our players for
the competition ahead. And when they step in that box
or they step on the mound or they go feel
their position, now you go play and use their athleticism
because they're prepared.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
You know.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
H A.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
I got to give Ryan credit here. Three weeks ago
and we had our first show. He said, keep an
eye in Oklahoma City, keep an eye and Dan, and
they're the deepest rosters in the playoffs, and we may
see them prevail. I would say, you guys are the
same way. And this has meant is no disrespect to
any individual player in your team, but it's not a
star forward roster. It's a deep roster. You utilize twenty

(35:19):
six guys more thoroughly than any manager in the game.
And I think that just gets back to your role
as a manager, which is your job is to fundamentally
put guys in the best positions to succeed and then
team buy in for that. So I just be curious,
like how intentional?

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Is that for you?

Speaker 2 (35:35):
How do you establish that in spring training when you
tell guys, hey, you may be hitting second against right e's,
but you may be hitting seventh or eighth against lefties,
and I want you to stay engaged and I'm using
you to your best of your ability.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
Yeah. So it's interesting because I think when you, you know,
back in the day when everybody talks about the past,
and I don't care what sport it is, it's like
five on five, it's you know, nine on nine, Like
that's the that when we write the starting lineups, when
we watch the game, like that's what we're watching whatever
team is on the field versus whatever team is the opponent.

(36:10):
And that's always true, but it is really twenty six
on twenty six. And if you have one team that
doesn't necessarily want to use their whole roster, and you
have us, it creates an automatic advantage, like it's our
thirteen position players on their nine, you know, so I
want to use that thirteen against nine. Now, obviously the players,

(36:32):
you know, when I talk about buy in or I
talk about why, it's a generation where you've got to
explain why you do what you do. It no longer
is is the way of like I'm the manager, I'm
going to make the decisions. Well, that's true, I've got
to explain why. I mean, I got two kids that
I got to explain why to all the time. And
that's the generation that I'm managing. And so we tell

(36:54):
our players everything. And what I've what I've been able
to convince our players is that it's not about a
player coming off the field or a player that I'm replacing.
It's about the player coming into a situation. So that's
the pinch hitting, or that is the reliever coming in
for the starter, or a reliever coming in for a reliever.

(37:15):
That player is being utilized because our twenty six is
going to beat their twelve or our thirteen position players
are going to beat their nine. And we've got our
players understanding that everybody's on this team for a reason.
We're going to utilize them to the best of their strengths,
and we're going to do it again tomorrow and the

(37:36):
next day and the next day, and over time, we're
going to win more because of it. The best part
of that message was last season when we went on
an improbable run for two months and became, you know,
a really difficult team to play against, and that belief
system was just entrenched in our guys to where the
buy in is incredibly automatic and you step in our clubhouse,

(38:02):
and that is because of the players that the players
have really, you know, done a good job of committing
to what it takes for this particular roster, you know,
to maximize the win total.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Aj I want to go a little deeper on what
you just said about last season and the trade deadline.
We're recording this show in early June. I think it's
easy for some of our listeners to forget that ten
months ago, early August of twenty twenty four, you guys
were fifty two and fifty nine, the trade deadline had
come and gone, and the Tigers were objectively considered sellers
at the deadline. So take us inside that time. I've

(38:39):
seen a lot of organizations across different sports kind of
let go of the rope when you know the players
and coach or managers say, hey, the front office and
ownership they're looking forward to next year. You guys did
the opposite of that. You surge last year, and that
came up with a great stat Since the beginning of
August a year ago, over the last ten months, you've
had the best record baseball to kind of take us
in through that time and kind of what change your

(39:00):
clicked In early August of last year.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
Yeah, that time, we were pissed. I mean we were
frustrated that Jack Flaherty's going, Andrew Chaffin's going, Carson Kelly's going,
like a lot of veteran, well liked and good veteran
players were on their way out the door. Now they
were being replaced by younger players coming up and going
to give good opportunity. I mean, what we had done

(39:24):
to that point did not signal to the front office
that we were, you know, kind of ready to take
that next step and be a playoff team. But downstairs,
that didn't mean that we were just going to concede
the final forty to fifty games, whatever it was. I mean,
we were we had a schedule to play. And two
things happened last year that that I think were instrumental

(39:47):
to us making a commitment to do whatever it took
to win. And one was we got younger. When we
got younger, we got a little bit more athletic. And
then when you have that team that transitions some young
players to the big leagues. You know, they burst on
the scene with a ton of energy, a ton of
commitments and open open minds to go and test themselves

(40:09):
at the major league level for the first time. So
we had a number of the guys do that. The
second thing happened is we got healthy. We had an
All Star in Riley Green come back healthy. We had
Carrie Carpenter, who was one of the bigger threats against
right handed pitching, come back at that at that same
exact time. So we have an influx of returning players,
combine that with some young players, and then we had

(40:30):
a decision to make and I had a meeting with
the players and said, hey, listen, we can we can
go one of two ways. We can go instructional league,
continue to try to chip away at being better. You know,
we're just going to keep giving giving opportunity and an
experience to this group. Or we can go Game seven
of the World Series and try to win every game.
And that means pinch hitting, That means, you know, using

(40:51):
our pitching staff a little differently, early hooks for starters,
maybe do some bullpen games and really take this and
get as many wins as we could. And when I
looked out on that group. None of them had won
as Tigers in the big leagues, and none of them
have experienced what winning was like at the major league level,
and the players were fully bought in to let's win

(41:13):
as many games as we could. You know, you win
a series, you win a week, you go have a
winning month at the end of August. Now you give
yourself a chance in September and off we went.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Aj fast forward though, to this offseason. So you go
into twenty twenty four, I assume you're still thinking that
as a rebuilding season, a springboard to the future. How
do you prepare your troops in spring training differently to
handle what is now expectations Like, I know you still
weren't necessarily the prohibit of favorite to win the division,

(41:44):
but you guys had to have immense internal expectations. I've
always found as you're in the championship cycle, that's a
real pivot point for a group of players. It's how
are they going to handle those expectations when you're chasing
down the guy in the lead and no one believes
in you. You run with wind at your sales when
you're looking behind you to see who's following you, it's
tougher to sprint forward. How did you help them manage

(42:07):
the pressure of those expectations?

Speaker 3 (42:08):
Now, that was a similar message, you know when when
we got to the offseason and and listen, we chase
some really high end free agents. Some we landed, some
we didn't. And but that's a message that the organization
is giving to your your team, like, hey, we listen,
we believe in this team. And we added We added
Labor Torres, we added Tommy Kinley, we added Alex Cobb,

(42:30):
like guys that had that had reputations at this level, Like, hey, listen,
we are We're in and our players knew that. And
so when you get to the you get to this
to the spring, I'm one on trying to embrace all that, Like, listen,
the expectations are what they are, or teams that are
going to be interested, and I mean, but we're either
going to prove them right or we're going to prove
them wrong, regardless of what their expectation is. Say they

(42:53):
think you're a great team, you're going to prove them
right or prove them wrong. Say they're here, they expect
you to be a bad team, You're going to prove
them right or you're going to prove them wrong. And
so we just embraced like our internal expectations will always
exceed anything that an external person says, because we have
our bar like we have our standards, we have our

(43:14):
you know, our our level that we expect our team
to operate at. And so that again, that buy in
was really easy. Now listen, we're coming off of October.
And I said this last year, once you play in
one October, you want to play in all of them,
like you never want to miss October again. And because
we returned our entire playoff roster that was active in

(43:35):
Cleveland when we lost Game five of the Alds, there
was no messaging of what the expectation was. Internally, it
was very obvious. We want to win the Central, we
want to taste October again, and we want to give
ourselves to win a championship. In order to do that,
we need to move forward and we need to look forward.
To your point, you can't run looking backwards, like you're

(43:58):
just not going to going to operate fast enough. And
so we put things out in front of our team
to to chase. And and one is a division title
and you don't win the division title in March, April, May, June.
You've got to build towards that and earn that by
the time that that that September comes and and that's
where right we're in the middle of this race right now.

(44:18):
We've won nothing other than a lot of games to
put us in a position that we're in today, and
now we need to put a lot more games together
to accomplish our first goal.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
He j One of the things that told me yesterday
that I hope I'm not giving away trade secret. One
of the things that said about you that I found
really unique is that you keep a lot of lists
about people who impressed you across sports. Obviously, I think
most of us do it with players. I think fewer
do it with you know, coaches, executives, trainers, et cetera.
If you could take us and the listeners inside, you

(44:49):
know how you started doing that, why you do that,
and why is it so important to you?

Speaker 3 (44:53):
Yeah, you know, it's a great question. It's not it's
not a trade secret or anything. It's it's more of
a habit that I that I developed in the front
office when I came off the field. You know, I
got immediately put into a hiring position like I had.
You know, I oversaw a player development for the for
the d Backs, and I had six minor league teams

(45:16):
and a Dominican academy and and and I had coaches
and trainers and strength coaches and everybody under my my watch.
And I was like, man, the only way that I
know how to stay organized is keep lists. And so
I during my travels or during it started with me like, Hey,
I'm impressed by that guy or that coach is really
attentive in his early work from a different team, and

(45:38):
I just wouldn't. I would just keep because I was
always hiring somebody at the end of the year, whether
somebody was getting poached from another team or we were
moving on from someone. I had a lot of staffs
that I was that I was hiring for, and so
over time that became a habit and it was important
for me. It also allowed me to to kind of
figure out what was important to me, Like his presence important,

(46:01):
Is their tone of coaching? Important? Is Obviously I can't
get too close with somebody else's coaches, but I I'm
I observe kind of how they interact with players and
how they interact with each other and and I started
to keep that that log over over time. And I
also other executives like, hey, it was really cool meeting
Jed Hoyer, who was at the time assistant GM of

(46:23):
the Red Sox, who later became my boss in San
Diego after I got let go. But I like, I
like the way he went about his business, you know,
I like the way that that that that people operate.
And and that's something I've done my whole career now,
which is when I see something I like, I write
it down, I log it. You never know when you're

(46:46):
gonna need a hitting coach or an infield coach or
an outfield instructor, and you have detailed notes from something
over that over time, you can That's how I got
to love George Lombard, who's now by bench coach. It's
you know, it's how I love Billy boyer Our, you know,
our our field coordinator in the minor leagues, Ryan Garko,

(47:06):
who's our farm director now and assistant GM, with somebody
that I that I got to watch. I didn't I
didn't hire all these people, but I I learned their
their qualities. You know, It's something that I was attracted to.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
You Know, one thing I think AJ is underselling here
is how much he's helped other people and how rare
that is in the game right now. I think when
all three of us started our careers, and certain certainly
AJA and Baseball did, there were a lot of people
who did look out for the betterment of the game,
and they weren't people who you necessarily worked for. Like
I harkened back to the impact Kevin Towers had for me.

(47:42):
I never worked for Kevin Towers, who's an excellent human being.
Billy Bean has always been a great mentor for me.
I've never worked for him. I think that was the
generation that we started with. It was this greater cause
to help people in their in their careers. AJ is
is a little bit of a throwback in that regard.
So I can tell you from an executive standpoint, almost

(48:03):
any time I've gone to a new team I need
to hire somebody, I always call AJ and just asked,
what you know what you got on somebody and you
know the ability to access Hey, I need a double
a pitching coach, I need a third base coach at
the big league level, or I need a scouting director.
AJ always has an idea, and it's more than just hey,
this is a good person. It's this would be a
good fit for you. And I think that's just a

(48:26):
rare quality that he has and something he should be
really proud of, because I think for somebody who's been
touched by him and who's been influenced by him, I
would hazard a guess of the twenty nine other clubs,
he's probably placed somebody in the vast majority of them
at some point. So it's not just to help the
teams he's worked for. I'm sure that's what he should
lead with, but I'm just going to tell you from
an outsider's perspective, he's helped a lot of us in

(48:47):
the game find the right partner for us in various
roles throughout organizations.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
Now I appreciate saying that, I mean it. This is
a people business, you know, and I've always value that
portion of of our responsibility. And you know, these jobs
are hard. You know, I don't care whether you're on
the field or if you're in the office, and you
know you have varying degrees of relationships with people, but
there's it's it's one of the best jobs in in

(49:16):
sports when you do it with the right partners, Like
when you're with the right people the that doesn't always
mean like mindedness. It just means that the people that
are that are sort of driven the same way. I
like being a connector of people and I and I
certainly have benefited from that throughout the years on teams
that I that I've been on. But if you can

(49:39):
help somebody's career, that's that's one of the biggest compliments
you can get. Ah.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
At the beginning of our conversation, you talked about how
humanly you approached the situation with hobby bias. I'd like
to take you into a room that was a little
bit less comfortable. Kentamieta is a player who's a long
time veteran, veteran in Japan, veteran in the United States,
very successful career. Time has come that you guys need

(50:03):
to let him go. The stats say it, everyone knows
it's the right thing to do. How do you approach
that conversation?

Speaker 3 (50:10):
What is that like?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Take take the listeners into your office when you have
to inform Kent to my ata that not only is
he his career with the Troy Tiger's over, but potentially
his career in the Major.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
League Baseball is over. Yeah, you know, I I as
a farm director. When I first came off the field,
I had never you know, released somebody, or I had
never ended anybody's employment, or I had never really had
those interactions. And I was very uncomfortable, and I always am.
And anytime that it gets easy, you probably need to
get out of these these responsibilities or these these leadership jobs.

(50:47):
But I think the one thing that is that has
really set me up in to to be effective in
those in those conversations is the truth. Like players need
to know the truth and it they may not agree
with it, they may not necessarily see it the same
way you do, or they may not interpret it the
same way. But you know, I've always prided myself in

(51:10):
given the players the truth, and you do it in
dignified way. I mean, obviously a veteran player or a
veteran coach and you're delivering bad news, you know it.
It's you're not going to be cold and callous, but
you are going to be direct. And so one of
the things that that I that I do is I
don't bury the lead, like I'm going to tell them
right away why we are in the meeting. At that point,

(51:33):
I think I have to allow the player to give
any reaction that he wants. It's his career, it's his job,
it's his he's the he's the one that that is,
that is the that is receiving the tough news. It's
not me giving the you know what I'm saying, like,
it's not don't feel sorry for me. Be be super

(51:55):
kind to the person that you're delivering the news to,
but be kind by giving them the truth. And when
when it's a player who's underperforming, or it's a player
who you know that you're choosing to take opportunity away
from being compassionate matters and being thorough matters, they all
deserve a reason. You know, it's not a numbers game.

(52:15):
You are choosing to give the opportunity to somebody else.
And I think that has set up for at the
very least, an understanding that that you know that you
get it, that you understand that it's a difficult conversation.
The last thing that I would say is like, allow
the player to be however he wants to be when

(52:37):
he's pissed. It's not personal to you, it's personal to
the decision or it's personal to the to the to
the gravity of the of the situation. But you got
to let him be. Then they may be mad, they
may hug you, they may bolt out of the room
and not even acknowledge you. And that's not about you.
It's about what's going on with the player. And that that,
to me, has has allowed me to have a dignified

(53:00):
approach to a very uncomfortable conversation. Because there are only
thirty teams in the big leagues and there are only
so many spots, and when somebody loses that opportunity, you
never know if they're going to get another one. And
I think it's important for the manager, of the coach,
the executive to appreciate the situation.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Those conversations are always uncomfortable. That goes across sports, even
if the player knows it coming. Sometimes that makes it
more difficult even in that environment. But you're absolutely right,
it's on the player and giving him time and space
to react to that. And speaking of giving somebody time
and space, Thad, and now you're going to let you run.
You have the Chicago White Sox tonight again. AJ Hinch,
manager of the Major League Baseball leading Detroit Tigers, we

(53:48):
appreciate him joining us. We'll let them give over to
the ballpark. Thad and I have to get back to
our couches with potato chips and our feet up, you know,
watching the game.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
You haven't a real job to do.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Aj Hinch, thanks for joining us on rosters to rings.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Thank you, Brian.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
McDonough that Levine.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
We'll be right back with you after this.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
What a great conversation with aj Hinch. Always you always
learn something when you're talking to him. Very enlightening.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Ran.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
One of the things that he touched on was how
much the role of manager in Major League Baseball has
evolved over the last ten to fifteen years. I'd be
curious if you could share with the listeners what is
the equivalent on the NBA side. How has the head
coach position evolved during your career.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
I think the first thing that stands out that is
how much bigger the organizations are now than when you
and aj and I started around the same time late nineties,
early two thousands. The organizations have just exploded in terms
of growth. We know what the franchise valuations are, and
we know across sports owners are pouring more money into
the operations than they ever have before. And so what

(54:55):
that means it's great because you have more information, but
you also have more people to manage. You have to
figure out how to use that information. I think that's
one of the challenges for any leader in sports now
is there's so much data and AJ talked about it,
you know, measuring different things across baseball, how hard a
ball is thrown or hit, how well a player moves,

(55:15):
all of those kind of things, you know, but you
don't necessarily want to try to give that to each
player or really to any player. You have to distill
it and filter it and pass it down. So yeah,
I think in the NBA, the analytical revolution, especially if
you look at the trajectory that of three point shots
across the league, it's basically a straight line up into
the right. It's what I wish my stock portfolio look like.

(55:37):
Unfortunately it doesn't, but it just kind of goes, you know, parabolic,
and so we've seen that. You know, I want to
get your trend too. And in MLB it seems to
me like, you know, back in the day, players were
stealing more bases, there was more bunting. So I think
across generations and sometimes even in a shorter time. That
these leagues move very quickly, and the best managers and

(55:59):
coaches like aj Hinch tend to adapt in real time.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
You know, I don't know if NBA fans rail against
a three pointer like Major League Baseball fans rail against
the home run because it's so associated with strikeouts. But
I think the funny thing about baseball is people say
it's ruined by the fact that we're trying to hit
so many home runs. In practice, what we're copying there
is the NFL and the NBA. The NFL learned very

(56:24):
quickly that, you know, you gain more yards passing the
ball than running the ball. You know, when you and
I grew up, it was who had the best ground
and pound game was going to win the Super Bowl.
Now it's so much more focused on passing yards.

Speaker 3 (56:37):
And the NBA.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Now, if you're four and five guide can't hit three pointers,
they're not surviving. In the NBA, there's no such thing
as back to the basket. Well, the same thing happened
in baseball, you know, is the evolution of analytics. But
really I think we were the last sport to market
with that. It just unfortunately, our positive outcome of the
home run comes with such a negative one, which is

(56:58):
this strikeout component which fans hate to see. But my
guess is the average NBA fan hasn't necessarily railed against
it quite as prominently as the Major League Baseball fan has.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
Well.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
I think there is a significant faction of the fans
who bemoan the lack of a two point shot. You know,
all the three pointers and Donk sets the analytical movement.
The best shots in basketball are at the rim, from
the free throw line, in behind the three point arc. However,
there's some guys in this playoffs who are making a living,
including the Most Valuable Player Jay Gillis Alexander who may

(57:30):
go on to win the finals and finals MVP, who
are kind of exploiting that that. Yeah, defenses are taught
to take that away. SGA works great from the mid
range ed as does Jalen Brunson, the key for this
next tremendous run. They came up just short in the
Eastern Conference finals when they lost to the Indiana Pacers.
So I think that's one of the things that's so interesting,

(57:50):
right the trends change. I mean, Houston when Darryl Moury
and Mike Dy Antoni were there with James Harden. They
were way ahead of the curb because they had two
guys spot up in each corner and really hold the
corners and gave James Harden a bunch of room to
operate in the middle of the floor with Clint Capella
or a screening rim rolling big and that revolutionize the league.
But what happens to that is, you know, is if

(58:12):
you exploit an advantage the other teams and you win
exploiting that advantage, teams try to catch up very quickly.
And that's one of the things that that's really you know,
impressed me about Aj Hinch looking at his career, the
situations he got to when he when he got there, Uh,
you know, Houston coming off a lot of losing, Salmon
Detroit coming off a lot of losing. You and I
have talked about that, and I want to get your

(58:33):
take on it. It's difficult running or especially managing or
being the head coach of a team you know that
that's on the way to winning. I think it's very
difficult coming in when a team is lost a lot.
And it's to me, it seems like Aj has done
a masterful job in both spots in Houston and Detroit.
Of taking a team that was losing a lot before
he got there, you know, and then have gone on
to become some of the best teams in baseball.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Well, you know, I think it presents two sides of
the coin. One is you really get to remake a
franchise from bottom up, and I think that's something AJ
has a real passion for. He has a background and
player development as a background. As a player, we heard
from him how much he loves to build out staffs.
He loves to do that. But what's also happening concurrently
is you're losing a lot of games at the major

(59:16):
league level, and I've often wondered, like, how many losses
can you weather before you're kind of linked directly to
those losses, you know, it's not when you and I
are getting interviewed, it's very rare that they put your
career record up on a scoreboard or a PowerPoint presentation. Oftentimes,
when AJ is managing at some point, there's a graphic

(59:36):
that shows what his career winning percentage is. And when
you lose hundreds of games for multiple seasons in a
row while you're rebuilding, even when you know that's the plan.
That's kind of a it's difficult to get out from
underneath that. And so that's where and I'd be curious
your take on this rune. Oftentimes we talk about there's
a manager who maybe can help weather the storm of
the turnaround, but maybe he's not the guy who's going

(59:57):
to take you to the pinnacle.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
And part of the reason is.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Because because he gets so associated with the losing that
it's tough to separate him from the downturn the franchise had.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Yeah, and that can be unfair too. And one of
the things that I think is neat about AJ's career is,
you know, to be honest, I was the general manager
in Phoenix of the Suns. I've forgotten that just a
few years prior to that, he was the manager of
the Diamondbacks. Because when you say a J. Hinch, now,
I associate him with the best teams in baseball in Houston,
winning the one World Series, going to a Game seven
and losing to Washington the second time. Now in Detroit,

(01:00:29):
the turnaround in Detroit, best record in baseball. So that's
one of the other things that's difficult. And I give
the Astros a lot of credit you know at the time,
because it's it's difficult to sometimes go and say, hey,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
A J.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Hinch was a manager, very young managers. He mentioned in
Arizona he had a losing record. He wasn't there all
that long in that role, but he's the guy we
should hire to turn this thing around. But the Astros
did that, and that's absolutely what aj Hinch did. And
you know, shoot, if he keeps us up, he's on
a kind of a Hall of Fame track as a
major League Baseball manager.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
You know one thing that I think actually ties him
with Greg Anthony, which I thought was really enlightening to
hear how both of them talked about when front offices
acquire talent, their view of it is they're not looking
at it necessararily just through the lens of how talented
this player is, but they're looking through the lens of
how well does this guy fit into our chemistry with
our leaders on our team, also with the scheme with

(01:01:27):
which we're playing. I thought that was really fascinating to
hear because I got to be honest from a front
office standpoint, like we're trying to over index to bring
the most talented player and of course we do have
an eye towards him fitting in. But it's interesting to
now hear a former player and Greg Anthony and also
a former player and current manager say it may not
be talent first, but rather fit first that they're looking

(01:01:51):
at as the most important thing when an acquisition is made.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
I really liked AJ's honesty as well. When we asked
him about the twenty twenty four trade deadline, all the
veterans that went out of Detroit. He could have easily said, yeah,
you know, we were fully on board.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
We understood.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
He said, no, we were upset in the clubhouse, but
we still had a number of games to play. And
that's when the Tigers turn around happen. As you pointed out,
from that time, from August to one of twenty twenty
four until today, they have the best record in baseball
and currently our leading major League Baseball. You know, yet again,
as we sit here in early June, he is stad Levine.
I am Ryan McDonough. Thanks for joining us. Come back

(01:02:25):
again and join us next week on Rosters to ringk

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Please join me host thatd Levine, Ryan McDonough and other
general managers every week for Roster Syrings on Apple Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts.