The Best Interviews of 2025

A Thanksgiving rewind of our favorite 2025 interviews: Greg Anthony and AJ Hinch on player trades, Torii Hunter and PJ Tucker on their unique paths to the pros, Jeff Berry on negotiating big deals, Rick Hahn and Michael Young on team-first leadership, and Jeff Passan and Jeff “Skin” Wade on how the media shapes front-office decisions.

We hope all of our listeners have a wonderful Thanksgiving! 

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to a very special edition of Rosters to Rings,
where we pay thanks to the exceptional guests who have
made Season one of Roster Storrings so very special for
all of us. First up, we're going to see how
managers and players see trades differently. Aj Hinch is going
to give us the manager's perspective and Greg Anthony is
going to offer some great insight from the players side,

(00:27):
you know, Greg. One of the themes, as Ryan mentioned
on Rosters to Rings is we love these origin stories
because it is the tide that binds us all together.
Whether you're an excellent player such as yourself or your
fun off executive, or your coach or your referee, whatever
you're doing, you're giving your life to a game, and
it's because you have this amazing bond to it. So

(00:48):
and also the gratitude you just expressed towards the coaches
around you and the teachers and how those things they
make a difference, right, And those are the forks in
our road. And we could have gone many different ways,
all of us, but we all landed in the place
we did, and it's because so many people guided us
along the way. I got to just ask you one
last question before we let you go, which is, you know,

(01:10):
from a front office perspective, when you're building a championship team,
you think about adding that finishing piece to a roster.
And I look at these final four teams, I just
want to get your player's perspective when you add a Cat,
when you add a Julius Randall or Devincenzo or Caruso
and Hartenstein, what's the player's perspective when you know, I
was told by John Hart longtime in Borderline, a Hall

(01:32):
of Fame general manager, when the players do their part,
the front office that step up and help them. When you,
as a player see a guy like Cat walk into
the clubhouse or you know, whether it's Hartenstein, Kruso walking
into your locker room or Julius Randall Devincenzo, what's the
player's response when you feel like you're really close to

(01:53):
winning that championship and the front office is invested in
that extra piece to help you take you over the top.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
I think one of the things you have to have
is a great relationship in essence with your star player
and an understanding of who they are. And I think
you've worked from there, and I think if you look
at all four of these teams, they've kind of done
things that you know, they were in different places too,
because I remember when you look at Indiana, they made

(02:21):
the trade to get remember they got Halliburn in the
trade they got seat them. And you know, when you
look at the individual moves, you don't necessarily think, man,
this is going to get us to back to back
conference finals, but in essence it's it did. And I
think what I would look at from the perspective of
the front office is you really want to understand who

(02:43):
your best players. You know, think about sports, whether it
be baseball, football, like, you can win a lot of
different ways. You really can't like basketball. You can play fast,
you can play slow, you can play a lot of guys,
you can play a few guys. You know, you can
have whatever kind of system you want and you can
win with that. But it really all starts with building
a system around the identity of your best player.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
And I think it really has to start there.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Now there are times where you don't necessarily have a
best player, and then you want to develop a culture.
But this goes across all sports. All the best teams
tend to have great defensive principles, right so we know
we're going to have that. And then when you figure
out and identify that best player, then you've got to
find guys that compliment him, not just talent wise, but

(03:31):
also in terms of.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Who they are.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
You know, you can't necessarily go get another alpha if
your guy is an alpha, but if your guy isn't
an alpha, even though he could be your best player,
because that's also the case.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
And I say this with all due respect, like.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
I wouldn't say that Kevin Durant is an alpha even
though he might be my best player. So I would
have to then make sure I have guys that can
fulfill a role that allows him to be the best
player version of himself.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Right.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
One thing about coaching or building a team. One thing
I learned from coach Chark. He said, you know, you
never ask players to do things that are uncomfortable doing,
because they'll never achieve what they're capable of, you know,
And that's the case. I think in a lot of
ways for any now, you can make them uncomfortable and
you can push them to heights that maybe they don't

(04:24):
know they have. But I go back to my puzzle analogy.
I need to identify who my best player is and
where he strived, where he really has great strengths, and
then also identify the areas that he needs help. And
I think all four of these teams have done a

(04:45):
great job of that. Right, if you look at the
makeup of their teams, you know, Sga he's not a
tough guy, right, Steph Curry is not necessarily a tough guy.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
So you get guys that fill that void.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Right, you have a lou Dort who brings that kind
of a mindset and fills that boy. And you have
a Draymond Green that brings that kind of a mindset
and fills that boy. Because the formula for success is
always the same. May not be the style, but the
formula for success is the same in terms of you've
got to have great mental toughness, right, you have to

(05:22):
have supreme talent.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
But then there's also there has to be credibility, accountability
in chemistry, and so all those things have to work.
They and the teams that recognize that. That's why teams
miss a lot because they may have one of the
three or two of the three, but the best teams
have them all. There's a connection and it doesn't always

(05:46):
look like it works. Like you wouldn't think that Draymond
and Steph are that close based on the way they
play and conduct themselves. But there's no duo with better
chemistry maybe that we've ever had in this game and
so being able to identify it early. Joki and Jamal
Murray another example of that, right, Like completely different places, culturally,

(06:10):
different interests, you know, but it works and it's not
always easy to identify, but that's what you really look for, Like,
you know, you want your guys to be in a
position of comfort, and I feel like that's the biggest
thing you don't want to If I got to ask
you to do stuff you're not good at, how the
hell am I going to ever expect us to be

(06:31):
really good?

Speaker 2 (06:32):
You know, if you're spending time doing stuff you don't
do well, I want you to be the best version
of yourself. And it's my job as a front office
and a coach to find the guys to fill the.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
Voids in the areas that maybe you don't have.

Speaker 4 (06:46):
Aja.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
At the beginning of our conversation, you talked about how
humanly you approached the situation with hobby bias. I'd like
to take into a room that was a little bit
less comfortable. Ken Tamaieta is a player who's a long
time veteran, veteran in Japan, veteran in the United States,
very successful career. Time has come that you guys need

(07:06):
to let him go. The stats say it, everyone knows
it's the right thing to do. How do you approach
that conversation? What is that like? Take take the listeners
into your office when you have to inform kentami Ata
that not only is he his career with the Troy
Tiger's over, but potentially his career in the Major League
Baseball is over.

Speaker 5 (07:26):
Yeah, you know, I as a farm director. When I
first came off the field, I had never you know,
released somebody, or I had never ended anybody's employment, or
I had never really had those interactions.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
And I was very uncomfortable, and.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
I always am.

Speaker 5 (07:42):
And anytime that it gets easy, you probably need to
get out of these these responsibilities or these leadership jobs.
But I think the one thing that is that has
really set me up in to be effective in those
in those conversations is the truth. Like players need to
know the truth, and it they may not agree with it,

(08:04):
they may not necessarily see it the same way you do,
or they may not interpret it the same way. But
you know, I've always prided myself and given the players
the truth, and you do it in dignified way. I mean,
obviously a veteran player or a veteran coach and you're
delivering bad news, you know it. It's You're not going
to be cold and callous, but you are going to

(08:26):
be direct. And so one of the things that that
I that I do is I don't bury the lead,
like I'm going to tell them right away why we
are in the meeting. At that point, I think I
have to allow the player to give any reaction that
he wants. It's his career, it's his job, it's his
he's the he's the one that that is that is

(08:48):
the that is receiving the tough news. It's not me
giving the you know what I'm saying, it's not don't feel.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Sorry for me.

Speaker 5 (08:56):
Be be super kind to the person that you're delivering
the news to, but be kind by giving them the truth.
And when when it's a player who's underperforming, or it's
a player who you know that you're choosing to take
opportunity away from being compassionate matters and being thorough matters.
They all deserve a reason. You know, it's not a

(09:17):
numbers game. You are choosing to give the opportunity to
somebody else. And I think that has set up for
at the very least an understanding that that you know
that you get it, that you understand that it's a
difficult conversation. The last thing that I would say is like,
allow the player to be however he wants to be

(09:40):
when he's pissed. It's not personal to you. It's personal
to the decision or it's personal to the to the
to the gravity of the of the situation.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
But you got to let them be.

Speaker 5 (09:49):
Then they may be mad, they may hug you, they
may bolt out of the room and not even acknowledge you,
And that's not about you. It's about what's going on
with the player. And that that that to me, has
allowed me to have a dignified approach to a very
uncomfortable conversation. Because there are only thirty teams in the

(10:10):
big leagues and there are only so many spots, and
when somebody loses that opportunity, you never know if they're
going to get another one. And I think it's it's
important for the for the manager of the coach the
executive to appreciate the situation.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Next up, we are thrilled to bring on former agent
and San Francisco Giants advisor Jeff Barry. He's going to
share how he's handled negotiations very uniquely throughout his career
and it's extremely a special relationship with Buster Posey.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Jeff.

Speaker 6 (10:51):
One of the things we're jealous of from an NBA
perspective is your ability to negotiate different things into player
contracts and the NBA, I think they're on eleven or
twelve things to negotiate, and a few of them are
the data signed, how many years the player is getting,
the salary, the payment schedule, So it's pretty cut and paste.
It's pretty boring, to be honest with you. That pulled

(11:12):
a great example for this show. I think Troy Gloss
succorded that at an annual equestrian expense. Are there any
things like that that you remember either you negotiated or
you asked for and rejected, or you've heard your other
colleagues in the agent industry asking for. Because I think
that's fascinating for somebody who you know, basically just fills
in a few numbers and then signs it and it's interesting.

Speaker 7 (11:33):
But but you know the thing of it is, Ron
I don't have anything specific that pops up that you know,
obviously the no trade clauses and the you know, the
housing allowance tickets, you know, like transportation for family members,
different things like that for say a guy that's out
of the country or you know that sort of thing.

(11:53):
But more to me to your point, and I think
some of this is being lost. Dad knows this. That
draft used to be a lot more fun in baseball
than it is now. They boxed it into what you
said of like you know, agents high five when we
get slot or when we get like the creative and
I remember it even goes back. You remember when I

(12:14):
think THEO is probably responsible for initiating a lot of
the other teams. You remember when they were going on
that kind of journey of spending whatever they wanted on
the draft that because it was the cheapest way. And
you know, he would have paid if I could have
somehow gotten you know, And I'm thrilled Buster ended up
with the Giants. It was a match made in heaven

(12:34):
from day one. Is I think THEO would have paid
whatever he would have paid you know, people would ask me, well,
what is what's Buster looking for in the draft? And
I said, I don't know it. You know, Molina just
signed a sixty million dollar deal, and I think Buster's
talents ahead of his, and you know, knowing the response
I would get. But THEO was going down that path

(12:57):
a lot, meaning like spending whatever. It took a lot
of the I don't know. The gamesmanship of the draft
has now disappeared with this kind of boxing in system
what for better or for worse, it just wasn't as
fun for me.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Well I think I think that new system, yeah, Jeff.
And it's it's it's a it's a link that's tying
this whole conversation together, which is the game has gotten
a little bit more formulaic right where it's there is
less freedom to negotiate, kind of unencumbered. It's tougher to
squeak in the equestrian account for Troy Glauss's wife into
these contracts anymore. You just don't see that see that

(13:35):
as frequently.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Jeff.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
I I want to give you some airtime here. You're
more than just an agent. You know, we touched on
it in the intro. You've been very involved with the
V Foundation. I know your wife is very involved with
the VV Foundation, but also a racehorse owner. I'd love
to give you a chance to give give the fans
a little slice into here we go, the hat's coming on,

(13:59):
like what is is like as you've now transitioned from
being an agent where you're spending some of your free time.
And then also i'd love to hear the story of
why you left the agency because I think it's very
informative to the listeners.

Speaker 7 (14:12):
Well, and a lot of it was I was. I
don't know, it felt like it had run as course
for me. I talked one of the things where I
didn't feel like it was able to make the difference
that I wanted. And that's why I did a lot
of the media stuff with only just to kind of
tell all those stories, so to speak. And it felt

(14:32):
like it was just the right time for a change.
I had had wonderful clients, wonderful employees and colleagues and
co workers and all that, and I love being an agent.
I just didn't love being an agent.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
You know.

Speaker 7 (14:45):
I go back to the Hater deal. I lost that
arbitration case that and I probably lost more arbitration cases
than anyone over the last twenty years. And we were
a hunt. What we were seeking was a one hundred
thousand dollars more than what papal Bond had gotten eleven
years earlier.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
And can I just say to Jeff, may have lost
arbitration cases, but you never lost the principal battle. And
that's why I said that about you earlier. You went
to bad for your clients when you felt the principles
were on your side, regardless of whether you were handicapped
to win or lose these cases. So I just want
to put that in a little bit of context.

Speaker 7 (15:21):
It was I appreciate that, but the fact like I
made the decision. I remember sitting there at the table
and I was, you know, watching people running out of
the rooms. That saves the value by which our saves
of the currency by which relievers are value bad. You know,
in this academic, smart guy world, there couldn't be anything
further from the truth. And I was sitting there and

(15:43):
I'm like leaning back and I'm watching this and I'm like,
I'm gonna you know, I've snatched defeat from the jaws
of victory here, and I'm going to lose this case.
And it's insane that I'm losing this case. And that
was to me. I was like, we're going to see
this through. And you know, I'd rather mowlowns in Florida

(16:03):
then just cave into it because it's not worth it
to me not to try to do what's right there.
And so, you know, leaving was no. It just felt
like the right time. But since I have been out
obviously working with Buster trying to you know, we were
very aggressive Buster and Zach Manassian, who is a dude

(16:27):
of a general manager. I think he's been unbelievable. The
kid that started out, you know, as a club, he
grew up in the sport. I call it like that,
you know, you have your corn Faery Hires. I look
at it like a Chick fil A, meaning you can't
that Ryan can't go and buy a Chick fil A,
even with all his NBA money. You know why because

(16:47):
he doesn't have any history or background with Chick fil
A and they have like the culture of that. You see,
it it resonates every time. I was just in Albany,
in not a great area of Albany, coming back from
Saratoga where my horse was scratched with an emergency surgery.
So not in the best of moods. I go into
a Chick fil A and the place is beautiful. They

(17:09):
got an older gentleman sweeping things up, refilling my soda.
The point of it is, you have to have experience
working for Chick fil A and have grown up in
the industry, learned it from the ground up. And I
think that's a huge benefit. I think when we got
into the outsider world, you remember that it was a
it was almost a check mark against you if you

(17:32):
had a lot of experience in scouting, or if you
had a lot of experience in playing, which is so
bonkers to me. That all right, but you can do
really good math, or you can program this or that.
But this guy's been in the trenches for twenty years.
I take the guy in the trenches for the last
twenty years. I don't think this is baseball. Teams are

(17:55):
like global hedge funds that you know, the complexity and
all that, and so I look at you know, like
what Zach has done, what Buster has done, and to me,
I think it'll be the new wave of what general
managers will be. I think the pendulum will swing back.
And I remember thinking this because oh the Giants. This

(18:18):
is such a dramatic move, and I'm like, dramatic move.
It's he graduated at the top of his class, you know,
academically high school, was a college Academic All American in
addition to winning every single award, and then he caught
for twelve years, three World Series champions, calling every pitch,

(18:42):
managing the EQ of a pitching staff. Dad, you know
how hard that is, the EQ to manage a team
hit four hole and squat. Yet he's unqualified to run
a baseball team. That was to me like a real
tipping point in my mind. Now it's like running a
I don't know. I'll take the academic All American that

(19:04):
has been a catcher for twelve years and going into
the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Every player is such a unique path to reaching the
pinnacle in their profession. NBA great PJ. Tucker took a
circuitous route playing in Europe before getting a chance to
play in the NBA, whereas MLB Legendry Hunter sures his
perspective from being a first round draft pick to his
path to playing in the major leagues.

Speaker 6 (19:24):
One of the reasons I have so much respect for you,
other than the great times we had together with the
Phoenix Suns is your path and I think you have
a really interesting story to tell, especially as we record
the show the week of the NBA Draft to young players,
because when we've talked about this before, by your own admission,
you were a little immature going to Toronto. You didn't
necessarily get what it took to not only make the

(19:47):
NBA but stick in the NBA, and then you had
to go overseas for five years and claw your way back.
If you could take our listeners inside that journey in
what you learned after initially washing out of the NBA,
having to go to Europe and earn your way back, I.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Always want to tell it.

Speaker 8 (20:03):
I always say I'd never imagine being back, like I
to sell myself and my mind because to be successful
over there, you have to be focused on there, right.
You can't be over there thinking that you're going to
come back like. It just doesn't work that way. And
I don't think you're gonna give what you gotta give
to be successful over there if you're doing that.

Speaker 4 (20:24):
So going over.

Speaker 8 (20:25):
There every year, it was fully maxing out right, getting better,
trying to win championships and do the individual thing and
trying to make more money right and over there. If
you win, you get paid, And so every year just
trying to win as much as possible, but even leaving
leave it before even before you know, I'll go back,
even before going over there, because my rookie year, I

(20:47):
think is really essential in the whole story of only
playing in seventeen games, being very very immature when it
comes to being a professional, when it comes to understanding
what it's all about. When you have so much success
in college as I did, Uh, and you're thinking you're
going to an NBA and that you'll get opportunities, uh where,

(21:10):
I'll tell it you. I couldn't even get in a
repping practice right like. It was like it was literally
I had so many vets on that team wings that
that had been in the league for years, So in practice,
guys were fighting for reps and I couldn't even get
a rep in practice a lot of times. So that
frustrated me. It wasn't anybody there to kind of like
coach me through it and you know, rub my back

(21:31):
and be like it's okay, you know, this is how
it goes. Blah blah blah. It just wasn't like that,
you know, and it was something I had to fight
through uh throughout that season. So once I got released
from the Raptors before the playoffs.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
It hurt.

Speaker 8 (21:44):
It was, it really hurt, and I I just want
an opportunity to play right And that was I told Andre,
and Andre tells everybody that when I came out of
that season, I was like, I don't care where I go.
I just want to go sw everywhere I get a
chance to play. I was like, I don't care where
it is in world. And he didn't believe me. He
thought I would, like, still want to kind of fight

(22:04):
it here. And as soon as we got the first
opportunity I sign the contract. I still don't think he
believed I was going to do it, and I did.
Like I said, I think that was another big decision
I made to really help me be it right now.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
You know, Tori, one of the things that I think
our listeners probably don't fully appreciate is when you come
out of Pine Bluff, you are the best player in
that league, in that city, potentially in that state. You
come into Fort Myers and now everybody's the best player
from their city and their state. You know, everybody hit
third everybody hit first, second, third, fourth in their lineup.

(22:38):
Everybody could pitch and probably play center field or catch
or play short stop. So it is challenging making that
adjustment from being the guy who's the best player on
the field to being one of the guys on the field.
I wonder if you could fast forward to a night
in Double A when you had to call Katrina, your wife,
and tell her, maybe maybe this game isn't for me,
maybe I'm not going to be able to What was

(23:00):
that conversation like, and what was that adjustment like for you,
going from being the best player you had ever been around,
who'd ever been in any league you've been in, to
being a guy who's just one of the guys.

Speaker 9 (23:11):
Now, Yeah, I mean, man, you you do have a
lot of pressure. As a seventeen year old kid and
drafted in the first round. You know you're gonna hear
it from all the players you know, and you know
they said you know, subtly, and and you're gonna feel
the pressure. You're gonna read about it. You're not trying

(23:32):
to read about it, but you're gonna read about it.
You're gonna hear about it. But getting to Double A,
when I got there, man, I was sleeping in my
car in nineteen ninety seven.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
It's just we couldn't afford the first month. Rent.

Speaker 9 (23:47):
We knew we were going on the road for me
and a guy named Arma Brown. We knew we were
going on the road that after the first series, and
so we just say we got to save some money
and and we go on the road.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
We're gonna get paid on the road.

Speaker 9 (24:02):
And so we slept in the parking lot of New
Britain Broadcast Stadium and in the in the car. And
so we got up in the morning the rich the
guy clubhouse got rich. Let us come into the clubhouse,
take a shower, right, clean ourselves up, chill out for
a minute before the manager gets there. We were, which
was al Newman. We actually drove to the mall and

(24:22):
just hung out at the mall until we have to report,
and then we came back as if nothing was happening,
you know. And we did that for four games, and
then we went on the road and the team provide
the hotel for you. So uh, and I was just frustrated, like,
you don't we don't know what's going on. It might
have been you might think, oh, he's struggling. But I

(24:44):
was struggling internally before I became uh, before I struggle externally, right,
And so I just had a lot on my plate
on my mind. I just got married the year before
and now sleeping in a car. Uh and and you know,
me and my buddy was just like, all right, let's
just try to save some money. And then we end
up standing at the Hawthorne Inn Hotel, which is thirty

(25:06):
nine dollars a week, and so that's the only thing
we can afford. And it was rat infested, my roaches
and everything. You just do what you have to do.
And so I was I think when I know, when
I look back, I was frustrated with all the things
that was going on.

Speaker 4 (25:23):
And I felt like it was my fourth year.

Speaker 9 (25:25):
I'm like, this is too long, and I can go
home and work at McDonald's and make the amount of
money that I'm bringing after taxes.

Speaker 4 (25:33):
And so it wasn't so much on the field.

Speaker 9 (25:36):
It was so much off the field issues that actually
clogged my judgment.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
And I called my wife and I said, hey, I
think I'm coming home. I'm gonna go back to school
and get my degree and so I can support my family.

Speaker 9 (25:50):
This is not doing it. And man if I were to,
she said, hey, don't quit. We don't quit. Just wait
till the season's over, and if you feel the same
way after the season, then we'll get it done. I
told my call my brother to get his advice. He said, well,
if you come home, I'm gonna kick your.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
Butt every day. I don't want that to happen.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
So so I'm master motivator.

Speaker 9 (26:14):
Yeah, master motivator. But he's a he was a tough guy.
He was a tough guy. Uh, my older brother. So
I didn't I didn't want to deal with him every day.
If I know him, he was serious about it. And
so the season went on. This is this is after April,
and it went on in August and twenty second, nineteen
ninety seven, I got a call Odi Snickson got kicked

(26:36):
in the face and they said, hey, we need you
to come up. And I went up and uh and
got a cup of coffee for a week and uh,
and I saw the vision. I saw what I was
fighting for, and I was able to get a taste
of that coffee and uh, and it was sweet.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
So when I went they sent me back down to
mynor leagues.

Speaker 9 (26:58):
The rest was history, and I I've found out what
the vision was, and I found out what the purpose
and the dream. I tasted it and now I got
to have it. So nineteen ninety seven it was that
almost quit and that almost give up situation, which I
think everybody got has to have.

Speaker 4 (27:16):
I think all of you and everyone that go out and.

Speaker 9 (27:19):
Do great things and successful things, they almost have that
almost give up moment. And then before you know it,
something happens and then it makes you appreciate it more.

Speaker 4 (27:29):
And that's when it turned around for me. Tori.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Do you remember what your weekly salary was when you
were playing in New Britain?

Speaker 9 (27:37):
My week is salary after taxes was two hundred and
nineteen dollars.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Michael Young and Rick Han shared extremely unique experiences in
which they definitively put a team ahead of themselves, as
they both made major shifts in their careers to benefit
the club, but weren't necessarily in their own personal interests.

Speaker 10 (28:08):
Along with your humility, one of the things that stands
out even and that's talking about that one team and
you kind of made a joke about the two team,
but your ability to like pull remember the positives and
pull the positives of even a challenging situation. Those were
not very competitive team, very talented in some ways, not competitive,
And I guess fast forward to you know, when you're

(28:31):
the veteran on the team and I'm curious, how did
you go about trying to pay some of those things forward.

Speaker 11 (28:38):
Yeah, again, a lot of it is just learned, learned
kind of things, and a lot of it being a
young player with that group. It's the example of Randy
all Right, learning by the good things that have happened
to me, and then also keeping my eyes and ears
open enough to learn what not to do. And there
were plenty of those examples too. So by the time
that two thousand and kind of four rolled around, Alice

(28:59):
got traded to create a bit of a vacuum. I
don't think I was necessarily a long in my career
to being a you know, you know, leader would have
been the obvious thing. I was only my fourth year.
I think I was actually pre arb at that point.
So but you sometimes you just feel eyes on you
a little bit and it's like, okay, like this is
the way it's going to be this year. And the

(29:19):
older guys we had in that group and four with
the Brian Jordan e Y, Kenny, Jeff Nelson. They really
pushed me into that role.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
In a good way.

Speaker 11 (29:28):
So that was great. I started realizing the things that
kind of were given to me, and I said, Okay,
I'm going to be the same way one. I'm going
to be me. I'm going to be myself. I'm not
going to push this thing into a different different direction. Again,
that was from a lot of these older guys that
I mentioned who really encouraged me just to be myself.
And then always kind of it just kind of happened
a bit organically at that point where I would walk
into the clubhouse every day with an idea of what

(29:49):
I needed to do, have a plan where in spring
training a regular season, this is what I have to
do today. If I'm struggling, there are certain things I really.

Speaker 4 (29:54):
Want to attack.

Speaker 11 (29:55):
And then my other eye is on somebody I gotta
get with who be having just a bit of a
teammate awareness and someone who might be going through a
tough time. Maybe I should get with him a little bit,
or someone who's on fire and I'm not, and I
need to ask a question about how to get myself
going whatever the case may be. And I was kind
of my bit of my mantra, kind of one eye
on myself and one eye on everybody else.

Speaker 10 (30:17):
And you you you brushed past it there, but I
feel like you need to to color in that opening man.
And when Alex Rodriguezz traded prior to the fourth season,
John Hart was a GM. I was the assistant GM,
and we literally trade. The trade was a week before
spring training if that or it might have been in
days before spring training. And he was the only clear

(30:41):
cut major league caliber starting shortstop on the club, right,
and so we Alfonso Sorano comes back in the team.
We have two all stars second basement, and and you
and Soriano many Alexander's on the club more of a
utility player at that point in his career. And I
mean literally, you know, you have a decent team, go
and spring training without at a starting shortstop, and uh

(31:04):
and sorry, wanted no part in it.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
Right.

Speaker 10 (31:06):
It was going to be a free agent a year
or so later, and understandably so, and you know, I
know you went into Buck's office and you know, volunteered
to move and you were an outstanding second base ended
up wuinning a goal glove and shortstop as well. But
curious just looking back on it now, Your thoughts on
that decision and how it came about.

Speaker 11 (31:27):
It was, it was really long. That was my first
experience with the switching positions thing, and not to take
too long. But Alex's was going to get traded and
possible right. That was basically a kind of a done
deal and the Player Association got involved. But Buck called
me before that deal went down, because all I knew
at that point was new Alex hadn't contacted me. I
didn't really know what was going on. And he said, Hey,

(31:48):
how you doing. And I kind of knew where he
was going to go with this, and he said, hey,
I've been talking to John john Hart and we want
to know how you feel about playing shortstop. I said,
I don't want to play shortstop. It was I was
very clear, we're gonna we're gonna sign rich Aurelia. I
believe to play short at the time with with Alex.
We're gonna sign Richirealia and you'll play second or you're

(32:11):
gonna play short I prefer you for you to play
short I said, I love the Richarlia idea. I don't
want to play shortstop. I said, I recognize how cool
short stop is, I said.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
But I've played about it.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
I don't.

Speaker 11 (32:22):
You can look it up. I told John told Buck,
I said, I haven't played much short stop, and I
really feel like I am getting ready to take off
as a two way guide. Second, I don't want to
be messed with. I feel like I've really scratched and
claude in my way to earn this job. I feel
like last year I finally did and I just want
to be left alone to do it. So Buck says, Okay,
I understand. It's a short conversation, and he's like, I'll

(32:43):
go back. I'll tell John that you're interested in doing
whatever's best for the team. I said, no, no, no, nope,
not what I said. I want to play. Second. Now,
having said that, I recognized that Alex's deal is much
bigger than what my preference was at that point. I
got that when I got the phone. But then, you know,
JD to your point, I'm driving spring training Christina, I
are on the way there and we find out I's
got traded to the Yankees, and I hadn't heard back

(33:04):
from anybody at that point. Again, if that deal comes
along quick, they don't need to take my opinion, and consideration.
I got it, but we got there still didn't talk
to anybody. And then I go out for the first
day of early working, Soorry and I both go to
second base and Manny Alexander is playing shortstop, and I
was like, this is not going to fly, you know.
So I went in the Bucks office that day and

(33:24):
I said what's going on? And he said, well, you
and sorry, you are both going to play short and
whoever plays better it was going to be a shortstop.
And I was just like it was frustrating at that
point because I knew where it was going to go,
and I really felt like this was going to be
a bit of the downslope in terms of me just
losing a grip on my own career. So at that

(33:48):
point I gave it a day to think about it,
and I said, well, listen, if I beat out Soory,
which I thought I would, to play shortstop, I'd rather
play every game at spring training so I don't make
a fool of myself in April out there. So the
next day I went into Bucks office said all right,
this is the way it's going to be, then I
need to get at it now. So that's how that
thing all round it up. I feel like I've gotten

(34:08):
a bit too much credit for just being, you know,
very very selfless and everything. It was very much like, hey, listen,
I need If I'm going to do this, I need
to do it now. My preference one hundred percent was
to play second base, but I also knew that if
I was going to play short I need all the
practice I can get.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Michael, I would like to tell some funny stuff, but
I actually want to just build off of this theme.
You know, I was with JD when we were kind
of workshopping a conversation he ultimately then had with you
about changing positions again pre season two thousand and nine
to make room for Elvis Anders, who he thought had
a chance to be a gifted shortstop. And I will

(34:46):
say I think both both our careers have changed dramatically
based upon how that conversation went. And one thing I
reflect on is as much as our intentions are sounds,
sometimes our executions don't align perfectly with our intentions. And
so knowing what we were trying to accomplish in that
conversation with JD genuinely wanted to achieve and then hearing

(35:08):
how it impacted you, we understand that those two things
didn't align very well, But how did that conversation go
from your perspective, and as you look back on it,
how much did the conversation you just referenced factor in
for you? And you know what could have been done
better in that situation to have conveyed that message without

(35:30):
really inflaming the relationship with what was clearly one of
the star players on the team. And I love JD's
perspective on that too.

Speaker 11 (35:37):
Sure, I think, to be totally honest, and I think
I knew it at the time, JD did absolutely nothing
wrong in that conversation.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
It went well.

Speaker 11 (35:46):
We went to breakfast to meet JD and WATSH and
we had a great, good relationships with all three. But
you hit it that PTSD, Man, it hit me right away.
I'm like, I know where this is going. I know
where this is going. It went from I didn't want
to leave second, now I'm going to go to short
and now just getting pushed farther and farther away from
my natural position. And there was part of me when
I played short that thought, Okay, if I leave Short,

(36:09):
I can go back to second. Right, I also knew,
and you leave the middle infield. You never go back.
It's done. So JJ didn't do anything wrong. Communication was
rock solid, it was fine, and I understood where the
organization was. My thought was, and the organization does, you know,
do what's in the best interest of the organization. My
thought was, this is going to kill me. This is

(36:31):
going to kill me. I know where this is going
to go A couple of years after this, By the way,
I think I'd played an inning it third my entire life,
and I know enough about it to know that it's
going to be really, really different. So you know, I was.
I walked away again, like to your point, the PTSD
from moving second hit me, and I said, this is
going to go a bad way, really really soon. And
I just wasn't in favor of that. From that perspective,

(36:51):
I wanted to stay it short, not because I thought
I was a soret stop again. If if someone would
have moved me at any point when I was playing
short stop back to second, I would have said thank you.
But having said that, the teammate and he kicks in.
I Ian Kinslan, my best friends in the world's playing
second mates. He earned his job. I'm not going to
elbow my way over there, So it created a really
really I wrestled with it, man, you know, like I

(37:12):
never went any point. Really thinks that moved me to
second That's where Ken was at. So it just I
just said I want to stay short, even though honestly,
like sure, it wasn't really this thing in my mind
where I really wanted to be short stuff. I wanted
to be a second baseman. And with that thing, I
got farther and farther away from it. And I think
I was upset because I knew that if I went
to third, seconds now gone j D.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
How do you reflect on that that exchange?

Speaker 10 (37:37):
Yeah, and I think there's some important concept. And Michael
was several years in a row running an All Star
at that time, just won the Gold Glove at shortstop.
So we're here, we are, you know, messaging to him
washing and I go, we meet Michael for breakfast, and
the messages you know, this is best for the team
because you know, we team was in bankruptcy, we were
up for sale. We didn't have any money to spend
on you know, free agents, and so we thought one

(37:58):
of the ways we can get better was we had
this young shortstop that could come up and basically, you know,
maybe make us better at two positions. But it was
a tough message. Michael had literally just won the gold glove,
you know, it worked his ass off to make himself
a star at a second position. With that, If you
recall when I come back from the meeting, the way

(38:18):
Michael just phrased it made it sound like it was like,
you know, perfect. I definitely don't think of my execution
was was anywhere close to that. But we come back
and I think it was you, me and A. J. Prewler,
and you guys are like, well, had the meeting go?
And I was like, shure, I think it went great.
And at that I lost all credibility with that and

(38:40):
AJ and the rest of the front office for describing
how meetings went in the future because it was a
little bumpy. But we got through it no small part
because you know, Michael ultimately, you know, as you say,
put the team first. But it was I think a
lot more challenging for him, certainly than I recognized at
the time and not even now. And you look at

(39:00):
like players moving positions or you know, the you know
situate Boston had earlier this year, like there's always more
of than than meets the eye, And I think these
are real challenges. People assume it's just an easy move,
but there's a lot of work and a lot of challenge,
and both physically and mentally. I think that goes into
these things.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
So Rick, just circling back to your to your origin story,
when when you you're dreaming of working for the White Sox,
did you make any forays of joining their organization before
you ultimately got hired and how did that go?

Speaker 12 (39:33):
I did? It went so well that it took another
four years before they actually hired me. I was very bullheaded,
which I'm sure is going to come to a great
shock to those who know me like you do. I
didn't want to use any help. I didn't want to
use any family connections or so and so know so

(39:56):
and so who can get you in front of someone.
I thought, No, I'm going to do this on my own,
completely oblivious or arrogant to the fact that it's extraordinarily competitive.
And just because someone makes an introduction to someone doesn't
mean you're getting hired, Like you're gonna there might be
nice to you for a little bit, but they're not
going to hire you unless you fit the role. But Finally,

(40:18):
after about three years of banging my head against the wall,
and like I said, being excited when I got a
form letter back from HR rejecting me. I did acquiesce,
and my dad has a friend who knew Jerry Rhyinstorff,
and a friend passed all on my resume, and Jerry
was kind enough to invite me in. And this is

(40:40):
the winner of ninety six. I walk into his office.
He's facing the other way. I still remember it distinctly,
and before he turns around, keep in mind, Jerry denies
this story, so it's his word against mine. Before he
turns around, he starts letting off a barrage of I
don't know what you're doing in here. You're wasting my

(41:01):
f in time. You're wasting your f in time. You
need to go get a real job, not work in baseball.
And you know, having grown up in Chicago Bulls fan,
and you know, just having had the labor stoppage in
ninety four, I'm like, took me a second, be like, wow,
Jerry Reinsorf is sitting here cursing me out. I was

(41:22):
able to maintain composure and we wound up talking for
about an hour and a half that day, and I
felt like I made progress, explaining that I thought the
game was changing and that the profile of those who
were going to populate front offices is already starting to
move a little bit, and only more will more so
in the coming years. Walked out of there feeling pretty good.

(41:42):
About two weeks later, I get a handwritten letter on
Jerry's stationary sent to my apartment. My real name is Frederick.
I go by Rick. My real name is Frederick, So
my top of my resume that he has says Frederick,
and the letter starts off dear fred So, showing that
he has already forgotten my name. Goes on to say

(42:02):
I've thought long and hard about our meeting, and I
continue to believe I will not help you ruin your life.
Please lie down until you come.

Speaker 4 (42:10):
To your senses.

Speaker 12 (42:11):
But then at the end he said, however, if you
would like to learn about scouting while holding down a
real job, feel free to contact me and I'll put
you in touch with some of our scouts so you
can shadow. So I did do that, got to know
some scouts, many whom are actually still with the White Sox,
who were very gracious with their time while I was

(42:32):
sitting there in business school, and I spent a good
portion of my springing summer getting exposed to that. So
it's a long story already, so I can't say long
story short. But at the time I was at Kellogg
Business School, they had a contest for best rejection letter
from the job application process, and I want twenty five

(42:53):
dollars to Barnes and Noble. So that was the first
money ever made in baseball thanks to Jerry again, and
he denies writing that letter, which is framed upstairs in
my office.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
That is an awesome story. I also I realized, like
when you say that, like you have to accept rejection
if you want to work in professional sports. And I'm
sure that there's no greater time than now to say that,
like the amount of times I got rejected and just
really categorically I applied to all thirty teams coming out
of college. I got formally rejected by four twenty six,

(43:22):
didn't even respond right, and I was ecstatic. I was
like this, I'm like on the precipice. When I ultimately
got the job, my first job in baseball with the
Colorado Rockies, I got rejected for a marketing position, which
I was grossly overqualified for and then got hired for
a baseball position. I was grossly underqualified later, So you
just never know how it's going to go. Rick, I

(43:46):
want to continue delving into your relationship with Jerry, because
at least outwardly, it seemed as if it was such
a special relationship. You guys had forged over twenty three
seasons together. So it starts in a kind of like a funny,
avuncular way, and then it matures over time. You guys
get to celebrate the two thousand and five old series together,

(44:08):
you guys get to go to the playoffs in twenty
twenty and twenty twenty one together. Ultimately, though, as all
these jobs do, it winds down at the end. What
were your conversations like with him leading up to that,
and can you kind of share with the listener, like
how does that go down? Because I think, you know,
we see those things in movies, it doesn't play out
the same way in real life. But my sense is

(44:29):
you had a little bit more of a hand in
that than people would realize.

Speaker 12 (44:33):
Yeah, and look, Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams took a
chance on me in two thousand when they first hired me,
and again it sounds silly getting the current state of
the game, but as we talked about earlier, back then,
there weren't a lot of people like us getting these opportunities.
And not only did they give me that first opportunity,

(44:55):
but they continue to give me more and more areas
for both to put me in a position where I
could become a general manager. So I was forever grateful
for that as well as over the years, you know,
the friendship, the counsel, the advice, the the antagonism when

(45:17):
I needed it to push me to get better. All
helped form you know, who I was as an executive,
but also like who I was as a man and
a father and a husband.

Speaker 11 (45:29):
Like it.

Speaker 12 (45:30):
I'm forever indebted to them both. But part of that,
I feel comes with a responsibility to be honest. And
you know, as I mentioned, the twenty twenty two season,
we sputtered around, We didn't fulfill our promise. In the
twenty twenty three season got off to a horrible start,
just a disaster, and Jerry and I think had our

(45:52):
first conversation in early May of that year where I
said to him, you know, the focus of the conversation
was what are we going to do to get out
of this? What can we do? What are their options?
But I ended that meeting by saying, look, you do
realize if we can't pull out of this, you're going
to have to fire me. And he's like, no, no,

(46:13):
that's silly, that's not the case. I have faith in you,
And I said, now, I appreciate that. I said, however,
you've given me and our department the opportunity to rebuild
this organization and we had some success, certainly not nearly
enough in our opinion, or as much as we strove for.
But if this doesn't work in twenty three, you're gonna

(46:34):
have to reset it again. And that's just the nature
of where this organization is and where our resources is
and where our balance sheets are. And I'm not entitled
to get to do that a second time. Like you
have to understand that.

Speaker 11 (46:46):
I get it.

Speaker 12 (46:47):
I can. You know it's not going to be ugly,
It's going to be clean if you ever get to
that point. We had similar conversations in June, July, and August.
You know, he really was reluctant to make a change.
You know, I felt it was part of my job

(47:08):
as one of the leaders in the organization to protect others.
I didn't want the coaching staff to feel the eire Kenny,
you know, as someone who had been wonderful to me
for over two decades and is the GM when we
won the World Series and played a key role in
many of our success of our successes together. You know,

(47:33):
he had a deeper relationship with Jerry, going back an
extra decade plus longer than my twenty three years, and
I felt, as the GM, he could remove me and
just me and things would be back on track. There
at least would be more consumer and fan confidence and
perhaps a different approach that could exceed even the level

(47:55):
of success we were able to rebuild the thing into
over the course the last few years. When it came
to the end, the actual final conversation where he you know,
let me go, you know, it was it was more
it was more me consoling him. Frankly like it was

(48:16):
especially him making the move with Kenny like that. He's,
as he has said publicly, like Kenny was like an
additional son to him, and that really really hit him hard.
I think he didn't love firing me either, but that
one was like family and they remained extremely close to
this day because of that history and I, you know,

(48:39):
talking with Kenny later that day, like both of us
are I think had similar experiences where it was letting
this kind and generous man who had been good, but
both of us understand that we got it. This is
you know, is him Ros said, this is the business
we have chosen, like, this is part of what comes
with the territory and it objectively was time.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Like front office executives, players and coaches, members of the
media have their own unique paths to covering professional sports.
Jeff Passon joins us to share his origin story from
the University of Syracuse to Fresno to now covering Major
League Baseball. Is one of the foremost members of Major
League Baseball media. Jeff skin Wade of Ben and Skin

(49:33):
Fame joins us to share his electrifying voice as a
foremost sports media broadcaster in the Dallas Fort Worth area
and a huge fan as he shares his opinion of
the Micah Parsons trade. You know, this is a little
bit of a role reversal. Usually Jeff gets to Pepper
j D and I will the pepper grinders in the
other hands. For this interview, we get to really start

(49:55):
peppering you with some stuff.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
Jeff.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
One of our traditions on rosters to rings is to
ask every guest kind of what their origin story is.
How did you get into sports? In Why Baseball, I'll
start at the beginning.

Speaker 13 (50:09):
I grew up in the Cleveland Plain Dealer newsroom and
in radio booths at WWWE and wkn R in Cleveland.
My father started working at the Plaine Dealer in nineteen
sixty three and continued through his retirement forty one years later.

(50:30):
And so I sort of come by this genetically in
both the fact that I had the ability, thankfully to
write a little bit, and that I topped out at
five foot nine, and so as much as I loved
sports and loved playing sports, I knew my future was
going to be much likelier on the written side, and

(50:52):
so went to school at Syracuse, worked at the Daily
Orange there and got the best education possible, not in
the class room, but in the field. My first job
was in Fresno, California, at the Fresno b where Adrian
Wrzanowski and Andy Katz and John Branch who I worked
with and who's want to pull itzerprize like it's a

(51:14):
great sports section with a lot of history. And I
don't know if you guys have spent any time in Fresno,
but weird shit happens there, and where weird shit happens,
it's great for news, and so spent two years there.
I got extremely lucky to get my first baseball writing job.
I was twenty three years old at the time. I

(51:36):
had all of like five or six games experience at
internships covering baseball. But the editor there, Mike Fannin, took
a took a risk on me, and he saw something
and I spent a couple of years at The Star,
went to Yahoo, and ESPN has been, you know, among

(51:56):
all of my really enjoyable stops, like, there's no point
in my career where I look back and I'm like, defin,
I suck now. I've been extraordinarily fortunate to work with
really good people at really good and supportive places. But
nothing's like ESPN.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
Man.

Speaker 13 (52:12):
I mean, say what you will about the current state
of sports journalism, I will put what we do in
both breadth and depth up against anyone. I still think
when it comes to serving the sports fan, nobody does

(52:32):
a better job than we do.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Jeff One thing I just wanted to have you shared
with the listeners. And this is actually a question from
one of our listeners, who interestingly is named twins Nowherry,
But he said he wanted to know how do you
actually cultivate sources and how do you go about like
testing whether or not they're worthwhile of you staying in
touch with them, and if you were to rank them

(52:55):
like agents, players, coaches, executives, like have you found some
more reliable than others? And then the last little twist
on this was like, how do you feel when you
kind of get the sense that whether it's an agent
or executive is kind of using you just to promote
their player, but there's not a whole lot of truth
to the rum or they're trying to promote. So like,
I just if you could take us through like how

(53:16):
do you cultivate sources? How long is that process before
you can truly trust trust them? And then like how
many of those contact points are you making per hour
you during that time frame leading up to actually then
feeling comfortable reporting something as being truthful.

Speaker 13 (53:33):
I think that the point at which I'm willing to
report all depends on who I'm getting the information from,
how long have I known this person? Is there any
reason why the person would give me this information? And
part of what helps me fad is that I've kind
of cut out all of the incremental things that lead

(53:54):
to the eventual transaction. Other reporters will say, these people
are talking with this team is talking with this other
team about this guy, and I just I don't know
the extent of conversations. Talks can be hey, what do

(54:14):
you think of this guy? Or talks can be, hey,
here's who we would give up for this guy. It's
who you ask for. Let's get to medicals and see
how this goes like. And there's such a giant number
of different things in between those two ends of the
continuum that, to me, what matters is not who's talking

(54:37):
with whom.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
What matters is.

Speaker 13 (54:40):
When a deal gets done and what does that mean
for everybody involved. And so I've given myself a little
bit of leeway in that regard not to get used.
It happens still sometimes, and I've done this long enough
where I can usually sniff it out. But the people
people who I have good relationships with, they kind of

(55:04):
know not to do that because they know that number one,
I will call them out on bullshit, and number two
that when you do that, your credibility with me just
sinks immediately. Like, I want to have an honest enough
relationship with the people that I deal with, where they
can tell me what they need, what they are feeling,

(55:29):
where they are at the moment, how they're looking at
a particular transaction they might be doing, whether this could
be a good thing, whether this could be a bad thing.
I can play Devil's advocate for them, like I like
the thought process of it. And I'm not going to
be in a front office like that.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
That's not my goal.

Speaker 13 (55:48):
I'm not smart enough to be in the mix there.
But I do like play acting at sometimes, and in
doing so, what it allows me to do with my
writing later on is to potentially offer all the perspectives
on this, both the good and the bad, and and
why one makes more sense than the other. It allows

(56:10):
me insight into the decision making of people in front
offices that it is so hard to know without understanding
what the greater picture is. I think, how how do
I get sources? I don't discount that the level at

(56:32):
which my voice is respected and considered among fans absolutely
plays into that that that i'd i'd be naive to
suggest otherwise, but I didn't just start, you know, getting
sources when I got to ESPN. And and I think
it's because I'm honest and because I'm kind of sincere,

(56:58):
and I can and I can be you know, I
think I can be different things for different people, and
it's it's not it's not ever fake. But what I've
tried to do is when I'm meeting someone, I want
to understand where they are in their lives, Where are

(57:21):
you professionally, where are you personally, and where are the
experiences that I've had? How can I relate to you?
And how can I understand what's important to you and get.

Speaker 11 (57:33):
To know you?

Speaker 13 (57:34):
And I've you know, I've made a lot of great
relationships over the course of this job. And I think
because I'm honest with people about my life and the
things that I'm going through, good and bad, they understand
that I work really hard and I care and they
see those similarities between us and it's almost like, hey,

(57:57):
because you you do this the way that you do
and I respect you for that, I'm going to try
and help you out Like that to me is ultimately
where most of it comes from. And it's the tough
part of this job, man, because there are a lot
of people in the industry, and in giving people time

(58:20):
that they feel like is sufficient for them. They're only
twenty four hours in a day. You guys know what
bandwidth strain looks like.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
Just give us the level set, Like, what is the
millions of diehard Dallas Cowboy fans? How are they feeling today?

Speaker 14 (58:35):
They feel triple gutted for a lot of reasons. One
as I think the fan base. You know, there's a difference.
The NFL is the biggest animal by far. But you know,
if you live in Dallas, you're a Mavericks fan and
a Rangers fan, and you're a Cowboys fan and a
Stars fan. And so this is a sports fan base
that is still reeling from the Luca trade. And so

(58:59):
you have the best player on your team for both
franchises changed before they enter their prime or as they
enter their prime.

Speaker 15 (59:08):
And it seems to be for reasons that.

Speaker 14 (59:10):
You you know, whatever you want to project on it.

Speaker 15 (59:13):
A lot of people project ego.

Speaker 14 (59:15):
Onto this this sort of thing, and I think, you know,
I'm not trying to be a cynical, grumpy guy, but
we're on thirty years of this behavior from the Dallas Cowboys,
So I'm emotionally speaking, I'm unfazed by it. I you know,
it's the problem is the logic with which the Cowboys

(59:39):
use to do things. They don't seem to have a philosophy.
They yank it all over the road. Let me ask you, guys,
and you know, name a superstar player the Cowboys drafted
since Jerry Jones has been there that they didn't keep.

Speaker 15 (59:52):
I don't think there's one.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
You know.

Speaker 14 (59:54):
I'm not going to sit here and say DeMarco Murray
was a superstar.

Speaker 15 (59:57):
He was a good running back.

Speaker 14 (59:58):
I remember not being he went within the division, and
it didn't bust me up that they if you are
a superstar, Jerry keeps you. He may do this, you know,
little routine that he does and say the things and
love all the juice and all the talk about it,
but they get the guy done. You could have made
an incredible argument, and we did on our sports talk show.

(01:00:19):
I didn't want to resign Ezekiel Elliott, not because I
don't think he was a great player, but I personally
never give a running back excuse me that second contract.
And I mean there's some guys like Saquon I get it,
but they're so rare. And Ezekiel wasn't that guy. He
showed signs of, you know, starting to diminish a little bit.

(01:00:42):
So you don't do that with that position. What you
do is you franchise him, and if it upsets the
apple cart, so be it. But that's not how the
Cowboys just don't have a good philosophy. And this if
you had told me right before the draft we're gonna
trade Micah Parsons, you I can understand and you can
make it make sense to me because you can't have

(01:01:04):
two of the top seven highest paid non quarterbacks in
the NFL and the highest paid quarterback in the NFL.
That's stupid business. So if you had done it going
into the draft, when you can put a good deal together,
I get it. That's not what happened here. This is ego,
and we've seen it play out year after year after year.

(01:01:26):
And I don't know if you guys watched it, but
we all, just as our community, just watched this Netflix special,
which is eight episodes of Jerry Jones's flawed in his
ego has drug fan bases through the mud for thirty years,
and it happened again. This trade happened because Jerry insulted

(01:01:46):
that agent. And guys, I know way more about the
NBA than the NFL, And Tom, I might be speaking
out of turn here, but what I see in the
NBA is when you upset the agent, he gets you
out of there and he gets you where he wants
you to be. And and Jerry took ridiculous shots at
that agent, disrespect him. And this isn't some third rate agent.

(01:02:10):
This is a big time guy with big time clients.
And you know who some of his biggest clients are.
They're in Green Bay, like Jordan Love. And so you
don't make a deal like this a week before the
season starts because there's, like Tom said, there's so few
teams that can do it.

Speaker 15 (01:02:29):
This was an ego deal.

Speaker 14 (01:02:30):
And now the ego you've gone to the edge of
the cliff and Jerry's not going to back down as
he's insulting everybody. And you guys saw Tom, you say
you saw how Mike was acting. They they traded a
generational pass rusher a week before the season because ego
got in the way. This is the kind of thing
that drives Cowboys fans bonkers.

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
I tell you what, when you're introduced is having tremendous
passion and knowledge. That's how you deliver. People in their
copy statement, that's how you deliver. It's been referenced a
few times on the show here, and I just want
to say, in Major League Baseball, if you negotiate directly
with a player, you're going to lose your job. Like so,
it's fascinating to me that one of the undercurrents of

(01:03:14):
this story is that Jerry not only was negotiating directly,
but also seemingly was outraged and was not going to
allow the agent to participate. Shifting gears for a second
here back to Jerry, just really don't real quickly.

Speaker 16 (01:03:26):
So just with so we don't have or we the
NFL doesn't have that rule. I mean, the agent has
to be certified. He can't negotiate with a non certified agent.
But there's no rule you can't negotiate directly with the player.
I've never done it. Well, we did it once because
the player didn't have an agent. But yeah, they're not
circumventing the CBA by talking directly to the player. But

(01:03:47):
usually the player to say, look, you know, call my agent.
And look the especially in this this contract, Mike is
paying his agent a lot of money for guidance consultation
on these contracts. His agent has on this hundreds thousands
of times before. He does it for a living. The
player doesn't do this for a living, so he should
want to use an agent, and he was. But but yeah,

(01:04:10):
there was Dallas in't do anything that was against the
CBA by talking directly.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
To the player. It's remarkable. I mean, in baseball, just fundamentally,
for this very reason, you have to work with the
representative because it's assumed that they have more knowledge in
the space and will represent the player better than the
player at ken himself.

Speaker 11 (01:04:28):
Skin.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Not to rub a little lemon juice in the old
wound here, but I'm going to read a few quotes
from Jerry Jones that I love your reaction and quoting here.
This was a move to get us successful in the playoffs.
This was a move to be better on defense. Obviously
we didn't think it was the best interest of our organization,
not only the future, but right now this season as well.
This gives us a chance to be a better team period.

(01:04:52):
How do you how do you think the average fan
is responding to.

Speaker 15 (01:04:55):
That, I think I think the average fan.

Speaker 14 (01:04:59):
Jerry's one of those guys when you're around him, it's
fun to be around him. But I think even the
average fan is tired of his BS, right, and so
these sorts of things they just ring hollow. And theoretically
what he said is accurate, So then do it when
you can get a much better deal three months ago.
Nothing's changed. They haven't been able to stop the run

(01:05:19):
the entire time. Micah Parsons was there racking up this
incredible you know pass rush rate and uh, you know,
getting these sacks and you know you have to double
sometimes triple team them. They've never been able to stop
to run this entire time. So they knew this. So
in theory, what Jerry's saying is accurate, it's just after
the fact.

Speaker 15 (01:05:40):
BS.

Speaker 14 (01:05:40):
They would have aggressively addressed it months ago, and so
it's like they got cornered into the deal and this
is how they spin it. And that's what I think
drives all the fans crazy because we have this long
track record of this sort of behavior. And again, man
in the press conference Yesture, Jerry Jones told a story

(01:06:02):
that he has told a hundred times about a contract
dealing with Michael Irvin in which he said something clever
about the city of El Paso, and Michael threw up
his hands. He's like, I can't deal with you, Jerry,
You're the best, and then going over and signs the deal.
So we're talking about something that happened in the mid nineties,
and that's what he's sitting up on the stage talking about.

(01:06:25):
He's talking, he's referencing, Well, you know, I've done a
million deals, and it's and it's it's maddening that we're
still stuck in that time warp. And it's good to
know what Tom said. I didn't realize that you could
quote unquote negotiate with the player. But you know, it
doesn't really matter because if the deal is not done, okay,

(01:06:48):
how do we how do we get it done? If
you want to be here and we want you to hear,
how do we get this done? And the answer is
to not pretend like you don't know the agent's name
and go insult him on a Michael Irvin podcast. That's
not the way to get the deal done.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
We are so appreciative of you the listener, for giving
us your time and support here at Roster Syrings. We
will be back every Thursday and excited to announce our
plans for season two of Roster Syrings on behalf of
Ryan McDonough, John Daniels, Tom Telesco, Wyatt Krueger and Jason
wykelt I am fad Levine, have a wonderful Thanksgiving