Veteran Leadership with P.J. Tucker

Thad and Ryan are joined by NBA veteran and champion P.J. Tucker, who shares his remarkable journey from the NBA Draft, to playing overseas in Europe, and ultimately returning to carve out a unique role in the league. P.J. opens up about the challenges and triumphs of his career, and how his gritty style and leadership have helped multiple teams make deep playoff runs.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome back to Rosters Durines. Alongside Ryan McDonough, I am
fad Levine. We've got a tremendous show for you today.
Fourteen year veteran PJ. Tucker will be explaining his journey
of adversity to leadership in the NBA. Brian, Before we
jump into the listener's question of the day, I want
to get your take on three big trades that have
been made in the NBA since last week. Talked to

(00:27):
Kevin Durant trade, Drew Holliday, and Desmond Vain. But start
with the Durant trade. Break that down for our listeners.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, thatad not a surprise that Kevin Durant ends up
heading out of Phoenix. It did not work out well
in Phoenix relative to lofty expectations the Suns had when
they added him alongside Devin Booker and then later when
they brought in Bradley Beal. And if you look at
the net for Phoenix, what they sent out and what
they got back. Now, with the two trades combined, initially

(00:55):
bringing in Kevin Durant from Brooklyn and then sending him
to the Houston Rockets, a pretty paltry return. And I
think it's going to take the franchise a number of
years to dig out from under. That sad, but I
love the deal. From the Houston Rockets perspective. One of
the things the Rockets were putting out there all year,
really through the fifty two win regular season they had
a special year with a young team they finished second

(01:18):
in the Western Conference, is that we love our young core.
We don't want guys who don't fit our timeline. And
that made a lot of sense that in the regular season, however,
they got to the playoffs as the number two seed.
They got kind of a tough draw because Golden State,
after the Warriors added Jimmy Butler to the roster, were
a championship caliber team are close to it. So that

(01:39):
was the matchup in round one, Golden State Houston. The
Warriors won that series in seven games, and I think
at that point that the Rockets looked in the mirror
a little bit because, as you know, in any sport NBA,
major League Baseball, NFL, the playoffs are to some extent
a little bit different than the regular season scoring in
the NBA against good defenses who know every single tene

(02:00):
and the coaches and players have days to prepare just
for one specific opponent. A lot of times one specific
player they locked in on his weaknesses, trying to take
away a strength. So I think after Houston went through
that process got smacked in the mouth to some extent
by Golden State in the first round, they said, Okay,
we took a lot of steps this year, and we
do have a lot of talent, but we need to

(02:21):
get better. We need to add a veteran star. And
for the price they paid, I love the deal for Houston.
They gave up Jalen Green, who's a talented young scorer,
albeit a relatively inefficient one so far. And for me,
this deal comes down to what you think of Jalen Green.
I think teams like his potential and scoring ability. He's

(02:42):
still just twenty three years old, but he has been
relatively inefficient at times. And he also just signed a
three year, one hundred million dollar contract extension. And as
you know, that's one of the things that I think
you and I will harp on again and again with
listeners of this show. As executives in the NBA or
Major League Baseball, we can't separate right for the player
from the contract. Whether we can't or we can't, you don't,

(03:03):
you shouldn't because those two things are intertwined. So I
think teams around the league view Jalen Green's contract at
best as neutral value, and a lot of them probably
view it as negative value, meaning that if Phoenix wants
to retrade him FAD, they'll probably have to add value
to that. So that's what I'm looking for. And this
deal was announced, but it's not going to be executed

(03:24):
until after the NBA's moratorium ends, which I believe is
on July six. And keep in mind the NBA calendar
year is July one until June thirtieth, so the clock
resets on July one. This deal will be executed then, THAD.
So one of the things to keep an eye on
over the next couple of weeks is if this deal expands.
It works right now as it is between Houston and Phoenix,
but I wouldn't it all be surprised. In fact, I

(03:46):
imagine that Phoenix is out trying to actively bring at
least a third and maybe a fourth team into this
see if they can send Jalen Green somewhere else, because
on the Sun's roster with Bradley Beal and with Devin Booker.
It's very unbalanced from a positional perspective. It's also not
very balanced from a financial perspective. They have way too
much money tied up in the shooting guard and those

(04:06):
three guys in particular, keeping in mind they also have
Grayson Allen and others who also play shooting guard that
I just don't like the blend. I don't think the
pieces fit very well together.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
You know, Ryan, one other nuance in this trade that
I just wanted to touch on, and you'll know more
about the basketball into this. I'm just going to talk
about the baseball end, which is my guess is they
probably asked for Javari Smith Junior and or Reed Shepherd
in this deal and they were denied. And sometimes I
will say, when we were making bigger trades in Major
League Baseball, you would intentionally ask for players that you

(04:35):
didn't think you would get back, because the strategy then
was to inspire the other team to have to replace
the value of that really high value player. And so
now as in their eye levels is up, they now
have to feel this obligation that they have to replace
the value of a Javari Smith Junior. I know, you
just were a little bit critical of the return that
of Phoenix Scott, But did you guys ever employ that strategy?

(04:58):
I guess the two things that come to mind here
is that strategy juxtaposed against when you're trading a guy
like Kevin Durant and you're calling other teams. It's really
tough to hear will these three, four or five players
are off limits because you look at it and say,
this guy's a first ballot Hall of Famer, this guy
is a guy you're seeking who's going to transform your team,
change the landscape with the whole Western Conference. The first

(05:21):
thing you hear is here's who you can't have. It
kind of stings, but you can kind of use that
to your own advantage by then saying, Okay, well, if
we're not going to get access to Javari Smith, then
we're going to need two three assets to replace his
value in the deal. I wonder how much that happened
in this negotiation.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I think it absolutely happened, sad and I'm trying not
to be too critical of Phoenix because of the position
they're in now. Frankly, they put themselves in this position
with the moves over the last couple of years. But
those moves were not made by Brian Gregory, who's the
new general manager. He's only been on the job in
Phoenix for a few weeks and the team badly underperformed
the last couple of years. They're currently looking for their

(05:58):
fourth head coach in about two calendar years, which is remarkable.
But in order, Monty Williams, Frank Vogel, and then Mike
Woodenholzer were fired and they just hired Jordan Not as
their fourth head coach. So I think, you know, as
they look at Phoenix's situation, they did not want to
trade Devin Booker. They could not trade Bradley Beal. He's
one of the few players in the league within no

(06:20):
trade clause, and he's seemingly his market is limited if
exists in at all outside of Phoenix, and he for
whatever reason that he doesn't want to explore trade possibilities
he likes, I guess, living in Phoenix. So so that
brings us back to Durant, and I think the Suns
they had to trade Durant. You know that he was
on a one year deal. That plays into this as well,

(06:41):
and the leverage or lack thereof from Phoenix's perspective that
because Kevin Durant is going to be thirty seven years
old before next season starts. He's on a fifty four
million dollar expiring contract he's eligible to sign now a
two year extension about one hundred and twenty two million
dollars sixty one million a year. We'll see if he
gets all that. There's been some rumblings that he may
agree to take less than the MAX from the Houston Rockets.

(07:03):
But I give Houston's front office a lot of credit
that I think what they did is just.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Stood pat, stood firm on their offer.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
As you know, sometimes in the NBA and Major League Baseball,
you feel like you have to make a deal or
you're up against a deadline. There's no deadline here Houston
that they were in their mind good with or without
Kevin Durant. So I give him a lot of credit
for just standing pat on their offer and analyzing the competition,
it looked like Minnesota had a pretty good package on
the table, but I think they were a little hesitant

(07:31):
to push more in when Kevin Durant put out there
that he didn't necessarily want to be in Minnesota, he
was unlikely to resign with the Timberwolves and as you know,
if that anytime you're getting a player on a one
year expiring deal, there is a lot of risk if
that player does not want to resign. You can shoot
yourself in the foot if you give up too much value.
So yeah, but that was a theme, and I think
some Sans fans are upset, but I understand it that.

(07:51):
I think Houston, Miami, San Antonio just either stood pat
with their offers or in some cases didn't really make
an offer at all. From Phoenix perspective, the leverage was
dwindling that with the league realizing they probably had to
trade Kevin Durant, and importantly this week, they wanted to
pick in this draft, which they got the number ten
pick in the draft, which ironically that was their own

(08:13):
pick that was part of the package that went out
to get Kevin Durant from Brooklyn initially, so at least
they got one first round pick back. Like I said,
net Net, it's a tough haul for the Phoenix Suns,
but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and you
can't go backwards, right, You can't rewind, you can only
look forward. And I think the Suns felt like they
did the best deal they could given their lack of leverage.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
You know, it seems to me just from the outside
looking in, like the Suns are an untenable position. Like
when you're building a championship organization, you're either trying to
win today or you're trying to build for tomorrow, And
it feels to me like they're getting caught in between.
With Bradley Beal as an immovable object, they can't really
tear down this roster fully, so they're trying to try

(08:55):
to do a little bit of both, which is sell
and buy at the same time. Sometimes you can be
successful doing that. Usually I find you fall a little
bit short in both goals of trying to put the
best team on the court today as well as are
you really trying to build for the best in the future.
It feels like there's a risk here that they may
be falling short on both based upon the limitations they have,

(09:16):
as you mentioned, some of those limitations that have been
self inflicted. But here they are now trying to compete
in one of the most difficult conferences that the NBA
has seen in the last decade, and they're really kind
of taking half measures. We're going to move on to
a great conversation with p J. Tucker before we do that,
anything that really jumps out to you, Ryan, where the

(09:36):
Desmond Baine and Drew Holliday. Were these just good basketball
trades or is there something significant? Is there a signal
being sent in the NBA with either of these two
trades that you want to touch on.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, So let's start with the Desmond Bain trade. He
got sent from Memphis to Orlando. I think Orlando sees
a wide open Eastern Conference Thatad, and that's one of
the unfortunate realities of these significant injuries. Two stars Jason
Tatum go down against the Knicks in the Eastern Conference semifinals.
Just a few days ago. Tragically, we saw Tyris Haliburton

(10:07):
go down after a great start in Game seven of
the NBA Finals. So the Bain trade was before the
Haliburton injury, but after the Tatum injury. So I think
with the Tatum injury in particular, Thad with the Celtics
now making another trade just recently to send Drew Holiday
to the Portland Trailblazers, and then with the Knicks going

(10:28):
to the Conference finals but also making a coaching change
and Tom Thibodeaux is out We'll see who the Knicks
bring in as their next head coach. I think Orlando
with a really talented young core led by Paulo Vancarro
Franz Wagner. Jalen Suggs said, Look, we're going to try
to do basically what Indiana just did where they're not
the favorites, but give yourself a chance maybe around that

(10:50):
middle seeding thad in the playoffs. If Orlando can be
the third to sixth seed in the Eastern Conference, is
that good enough? Can they make a run to the
conference finals NBA Finals the Pacers just did, given how
wide open the East looks next year, so I think
that was the mindset there. Orlando gave up a lot,
and that's one of the things that I think it's
hard for some fans to understand. Wait a minute, why
does Kevin Durant only bring back one first round pick

(11:13):
and Desmond Bain brings back four first round picks and
a pick swap. Well, the age and the contract, that
and the motivation of Orlando. Orlando was by far the
worst shooting team in the league. They're an excellent defensive team,
so they have the biggest variance between how good they
are defensively and how bad they were offensively. Bain should
keep their defense at a high level, but also help

(11:34):
them significantly offensively with the shooting and then quickly touching
on Boston, I think this is the first of several moves.
Sad Drewe Holliday is a great player. I mean, we're
going to talk to PJ. Tucker here in a minute.
They won a championship together in twenty twenty one with
the Milwaukee Bucks. Holiday is one of the few players
to win multiple championships in the twenty twenties. He also

(11:54):
won another one with the Boston Celtics last year. That
special Celtics team. But Boston is not only a luxury
packs team, fad. They're a repeater tax team as well.
And the financial penalties and the basketball penalties now are
so punitive if you're in that stratosphere salary wise, that
Boston has to make moves, and I think this is
just the first one of probably several to reduce their

(12:17):
payroll in a weird way that I think doing this
may have gotten a little bit easier with Jason Tatum's injury.
I hate to say it that way, but you know,
without Jason Tatum, the Celtics almost certainly are not a
championship contender next year, so to get out of the
repeater tax, you need to be under the luxury tax
line for two years. I think the Celtics view it
now said, why would we keep paying, you know, catastrophic

(12:41):
salaries and luxury tax payments and having limited basketball flexibility
if we're not going to be a championship pretender. So
I'll keep keep an eye on two guys that Christaph
Porzingis and Sam Hauser in particular. I wouldn't it all
be surprised if one or both of those guys is
not on the Celtics roster come opening night.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
In credible Ryan hearing you talk about this and how
really three injuries have changed the whole complexion of the
competition in the East, Darius Garland being the third guy
we haven't talked about, but Jason Tatum, Garland and now Halliburton.
You're seeing teams like Strike. I'll be curious to see
if we see more teams who were projected to kind
of be in that six to eight seed range, like
start taking strides towards capitalizing on this moment of competition

(13:24):
in the Eastern Conference. Well, we're going to wrap this
section here. We're about to have a wonderful conversation with
PJ Tucker. We can't wait to have him on. Stay
tuned with us through the break, and then in the
third segment we'll get to the listeners questions here on
Rosters to Rings.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
Welcome back to Rosters to Rings.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Everyone.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
I am Ryan McDonough, joined as always by Thad Levine
in Fad. We have a special guest today and I
know one of the things we don't like to do
when we're on the team side is pick favorites, at
least not publicly, but this guy is one of my
all time favorite players in my sixteen year NBA career
with the Celtics and Suns. That as you know, certain
players stand out not just for their ability, but for

(14:14):
their toughness, for their grit, what they bring to a
locker room. And I think the reason that this guy's
approaching his now third decade in professional basketball with a
number of different teams, a lot of successful teams, is
because of all that that is PJ Tucker, PJ, Welcome
to Rosters to Rings. And where I want to start
with you is at the beginning, grew up in Raleigh.

(14:36):
We're a fairly highly touted high school player, but not
a guy who came into the NBA the easy way.
You're a second round pick by the Toronto Raptors and
then ended up having to go overseas. So why don't
you take us back to the beginning? Tuck, as a
high schooler growing up in North Carolina, what led you
to the University of Texas.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
I guess I'm to start like they like being probably
now they you know, they have like four five star
I think earlier on being like a four ish, having
to grind my way even up through high school, right
like not being you know, from like in ninth grade,
not really being looked at as much a lot of

(15:17):
local schools, the UNC schools, but not a bunch of
schools until I started hitting the a you've seen uh
and and really grinding through that and rising over getting better.

Speaker 4 (15:29):
Year at the year to my senior year. Uh.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
And I picked Texas because of Rick Barnes one hundred
percent Frank hate and Rick Barnes. Uh. There was no
way I was ever going anywhere but Carolina. That was
my dream more than even making the NBA. So well,
Rick came in and and really just blew my first
He blew my mom away, and that if anybody knows,

(15:53):
that's like the first step and it give me.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
Uh he got my mom so uh.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
But it was the best decision I ever made, probably
throughout my entire life, because Rick set me up to
be able to be where I'm at right now.

Speaker 4 (16:07):
For the longevity, for the long row.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
I think Rick was essential and my mindset, you know,
being endurance wise, toughness wise, I mean across the board.
I think Rick almost every tool that I'm able to
use now where people say on my strengths, I think
I'll get them off from Rick Barnes.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
That's amazing, PJ. Can you take us into draft nights?
Where were you, who were you with, what were your
expectations going into that night, and how did you feel
when your name was called by the Toronto Raptors.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
That's so funny. Me and my best friend was my sister.
Now Mark, we were just talking about this two nights ago.
We were watching the game and we're watching Game seven
here in my house, and they showed the draft thing
and you know, it came up the draft on such
and such date, you know, on the b and I
looked and I was like, Mark, where I got two

(17:03):
days on there?

Speaker 4 (17:04):
He's like, the draft is two days now. I was
like yo. He was like, oh my god, you would
have been so if you had to wait till the
next day for your name, for your call. And I
was like yo.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
I could not imagine because I was so mad that
I didn't go first round, because I had so many
good workouts, went back to a couple of places twice.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
It's funny we.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Talked about the eras like I've been a round for
a long time now, and when I came out, I
had that that that label as a tweeter, and I
don't don't we use that term anymore, Like yeah, I
haven't even heard.

Speaker 4 (17:41):
That term in so long. But they said I just
didn't have a position.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
So I think that was my biggest fault coming into
the draft, and now it's.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
My biggest you know, it's the It's the biggest thing.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
That I could have going on my side is being
able to play multiple which is crazy now.

Speaker 4 (18:02):
But draft night was bad. It was bad to see
so many names you called teams.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
I thought for sure, for sure I would go to
h It was a tough night for me, so I've
bet it ended better than it started.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
PJ.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
They don't use the term tweeter anymore in the NBA.
Now you're versatile. It went from a negative pity they
got it a tweeter. Now you're versatile, you can play
multiple positions instead of getting pigeonholed into one. But I
think one of the reasons I have so much respect
for you, other than the great times we had together
with the Phoenix Suns, is your path and I think
you have a really interesting story to tell, especially as

(18:42):
we record the show the week of the NBA Draft
to young players, because when we've talked about this before,
by your own admission, you were a little immature going
to Toronto. You didn't necessarily get what it took to
not only make the NBA but stick in the NBA,
and then you had to go overseas for five years
and claw your way back. If you could take our
listeners inside that journey and what you learned after initially

(19:04):
washing out of the NBA, having to go to Europe
and earn your way back.

Speaker 4 (19:09):
I always want to tell it.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
I always say I'd never imagine being back my God
to sell myself and my mind, because to be successful
over there.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
You have to be focused on there, right.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
You can't be over there thinking that you're gonna come back, like,
it just doesn't work that way. And I don't think
you're gonna give what you gotta give to be successful
over there if you're doing that. So going over there
every year, it was fully maxing out right, getting better,
trying to win championships and do the individual thing and
try to make more money right and over there, if

(19:43):
you win, you get paid, and so every year just
trying to win as much as possible, but even leaving
leave it before even before you know, I'll go back,
even before going over there, because my rookie year, I
think is really essential in the whole story of only
playing the seventeen game. Being very very immature when it

(20:04):
comes to being a professional, when it comes to understanding
what it's all about. When you have so much success
in college as I did, Uh, and you're thinking you're
going to an NBA and that you'll get opportunities, uh where,
I'll tell it you. I couldn't even get in a
repping practice right like. It was like it was literally
I had so many vets on that team wings that

(20:26):
that had been in the league for years, so in practice,
guys were fighting for reps and I couldn't even get
a rep in practice a lot of times.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
So that frustrated me.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
It wasn't anybody there to kind of like coach me
through it and you know, rub my back and be
like it's okay, you know, this is how it goes.

Speaker 4 (20:41):
Blah blah blah.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
It just wasn't like that, you know, And it was
something I had to fight through uh throughout that season.
So once I got released from the Raptors before the playoffs,
it hurt. It was it really hurt, and I I
just want an opportunity to play, right, And that was
I told Andre, and Andre tells everybody. When I came
out of that season, I was like, I don't care

(21:03):
where I go. I just want to go some everyway
I get a chance to play. I was like, I
don't care where it is in the world. And he
didn't believe me. He thought I would, like still want
to kind of fight it here. And as soon as
we got the first opportunity, I signed the contract. I
still don't think he believed I was going to do it,
and I did. Like I said, I think that was
one of another big decision I made that really helped

(21:24):
me be here right now.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
PJ. You just touched on something that I think that's
very important for our listeners to hear, which is, you know,
clubs want to set everybody up for success, but they
don't always do that. You mentioned you were a tween er,
you were somewhere between the three and a four. You
also mentioned that maybe the mentors weren't around you, Like,
how did that shape you? You got You got drafted
by a team you don't get to pick who you
go to. Maybe it wasn't the best environment for you

(21:47):
to succeed either.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
Yeah, it wasn't, and it wasn't. I don't fault the Rappers.
They had great people there and I enjoyed some of
my time there. They took me because the best player
on the board, which a lot of people do with
that second round pick.

Speaker 4 (22:03):
I never worked out for him. I never did anything
for him.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
I was actually hoping to fall a couple of picks
after to a team that I thought now would have
been better at. But it's one of those things as
a young guy that you don't fully understand, and I
think some teams don't fully understand either. When you kind
of get overviewed. I went with the number one pick
on everybody. Honey went number one. So from day one
and me going through the press conference and everything, it

(22:26):
was so much focused on him as it should have
been the number one pick. But for me this you know,
all American college, you know, blah blah blah. Ex athletes
and college it doesn't matter once you get to professional level.
It's just not one of those things when you get
all the TLC that you may need to be able to,
you know, fight through the adversities that you're gonna go through.
You know, you go through the NBA and the Ricky

(22:47):
stuff to transition stuff, but it nothing prepares you for
when you actually get there and you start working and
being around the team and seeing how things go. So
that's something that even as event now where I am
fully aware and help guys is unbelievable. Ryan, you, I mean,
you know, obviously in the league, it's crazy now because

(23:08):
we got two way guys, We got so many different
kinds of guys like that we didn't have before. And
now I'm so conscious of all those guys on the
team right like we got like this year we had
five or six guys like one of those guys like
young enough to be my son.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
Like literally he's park is like.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
Eighteen, Like I'm like, bro, you literally the same age
as my Daughter's crazy. But he didn't play and he's
from France and blah blah blah. But I will always
because he didn't talk a lot. But I'm always every morning,
I'm talking to him in the morning, make sure he's
good and practice, making sure he's sharp standing, you know,
just always keeping that.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
Going with him. They let him know that we're here,
you're here, we see you.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
You know, you're part of the team, and you always
want to keep young guys involved like that, And that's
it's crazy the things that happen to me I learned
from and be able to use them at the end
of my career.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
PG.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
I'm going to say something now that may sound crazy
to our listeners, but I don't think it's going to
sound crazy to you. Is that one of the challenges
running the NBA team these days is a lot of
times you get young players and nobody along their path
really tells them the truth about what they need to
work on, you know, how much better they need to get.
And the reason for that that is because you know,
these kids are constantly recruited. High schools want them, au

(24:21):
programs want them, colleges want them, and a lot of
times the college coaches to be blunt or kicks kissing
their ass to get them to school and then keep
them in school. So, PJ, how you know, you're one
of the best I've ever seen at being a veteran
leadership and the guys really respect you. And I think
part of the reason the guys in the locker room
respect you is because you're so honest. How do you
kind of balance that?

Speaker 4 (24:40):
How did you.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
Develop those leadership characteristics, especially when you're talking to young players?

Speaker 4 (24:45):
That is? That is like a main point in Ryan.
It's so funny.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
I literally I'm consciously doing it every single day.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
Right. You want to build guys up.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
You want to be honest with them enough where they
know you're real, they know where you're coming from Israel, and.

Speaker 4 (25:04):
You don't want to you know, it's not even a
tear down. I'm not gonna use that word.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
It's it's it's motivation, right like you, you want to play,
and every guy wants to play.

Speaker 4 (25:13):
Young guys.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
You know, you can see it in the face and
the body language you want to play I get it,
but where you want to play it? Like, where do
you feel like where you bring what do you bring
the team? Where you feel like coach will put you
in the game. Right, It's what it comes down to.
And nowaday's new generations people. Ah, they're different. You know,

(25:34):
they're so super confident and everything they do they think
they can do it all. But uh, the school I
grew up in, where you know you look at yourself first,
it's always that self looking at that mirror, looking at
that mirror before I go out here and I try
to do my job and whatever I'm doing on this team,
I got to know that I'm fully there and fully
prepare for my job every single day, and I prepare

(25:55):
myself to be able to do that job every day. Uh.
And that's the thing I do most with the young guys.
Make sure you're ready every single day because you never
know when your numbers gonna get called. So just being
prepared mentally, I think that's the biggest part to mentally
be able to go out there and do your job.
Now be focused on things that don't matter, because now
everybody's in their ears.

Speaker 4 (26:16):
No young guy's got a.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Million people around them and just trying to stay focused
through all the you know, through all the noise.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
PJ. You talked about how Rick Barnes really shaped you.
So did the adversity you faced with the raptors you
go abroad, Like how much of those leadership skills did
you develop abroad? And how did you develop them there?
And all these connection points, these relationships you talk about
forging with players. Did some of that start while you
were playing over in Israel, Germany in Italy.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
I think that me going over there was a big
part of reason why it could be such a role
player that I've been through, you know, these last thirteen
fourteen years. Was being in Europe and being the main guy,
being able to know what I needed from guys from
playing over there, and what I got out of my guys,

(27:08):
and how you know, the energy I put board into
trying to help them help me, help me be able
to be a better role player in the NBA. And
it may sound a little bear, but they taught me leadership.
And it's crazy. I think in my mind that I'm
being a leader. But I had a guy named Paigeach

(27:28):
He's older than me, but he respected me. But he
knew everything he needed to do to be able to
make me better, and in the moment I didn't fully
get it until way later. But he was amazing, amazing,
amazing at helping me build my leadership skills and and
kind of pushing me in the right direction. And he
was he was the early forties we played together, but

(27:52):
he could still play strong and it was tough, but
he was really smart and he helped me out a ton.
So I really credit in Europe to a lot of
the leadership things I've now for sure come from that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
So, PJA, take us back to twenty twelve. Now you
have the one year in the NBA with Toronto. As
you mentioned, it didn't go great. You end up going
into Europe and sad he was a star in Europe.
All the negative labels that used against a young PJ.
Tucker in the NBA undersize. You know, the physic europe
ping game is more physical than the NBA game, and
at his size, he was a dominant player over there.

(28:27):
So when you got the call, imagine it was probably
from Lance Blanks, who was my predecessor as GM of
the Phoenix Suns. You guys had the Texas connection PG.
When Lance in the organization in Phoenix reached out to
you in twenty twelve, what was your mindset, because imagine,
you know, part of you wanted to keep being a
star and dominating in Europe, but you decided to come
back and earn your way back into the NBA, I think,

(28:47):
if I remember correctly, even on a partially guaranteed contract,
which is probably significantly less than your market in Europe.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
For sure, I love a lot of money on the
table to come back, and it wasn't easy. It took
a lot of people talking, a lot of conversations because
I just signed my biggest deal yet Europe, a few
million dollars, So it was it was a big deal
for me coming back and knowing I was gonna be
fifteenth man on the bench, like I knew, you know,
I knew that feeling of not being in and being

(29:15):
not playing not get an opportunity, And they didn't give
me any guarantees, you know, for a non guaranteed contract,
may play, may not play. You just come here to
work basically, and you know, obviously paid off. But in
the moment, I had no idea, and I was older,
I was twenty six. I was about to be twenty seven,

(29:37):
really built myself up to be a star Europe. But
now stepping back, coming in back in the NBA, the
mindset was, you know, just keep my head down, work hard,
and do whatever I'm told, and you know, try to
be you know, the tone set every day, practice, work hard,
be vocal, and just be one of those guys that's

(29:58):
around and available.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
And that worked out for me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
That One of the first conversations I had, along with
Jeff Hornisek, the head coach of the Phoenix Suns, who
we just tired, was to PJ about playing in Summer
League and a lot of summer league guys are like
nineteen twenty.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Pj's like, oh, man, do I have to?

Speaker 2 (30:15):
But the fact that he did and led us all
the way to the championship game, but I think we
lost to the Warriors PG. If I remember right, Draymond Green,
a young Draymond Green, and nobody knew who he was
at that time other than this play at Michigan State.
Was there, so I remember that Pad. And then sometime
the next season, the twenty thirteen fourteen season, which was
a special year for all of us involved with the Suns,

(30:37):
we were picked to be among the very worst teams
in the league, like the Vegas win totals had us
in eighteen or nineteen, we won forty eight games. So
those years, as you know as an executive, that you
wildly exceed expectations, are some of the most enjoyable. And
the reason I bring all that up is because part
way through that twenty thirteen fourteen season, Pj's now in
his second year with the Suns. He's playing great, and

(30:59):
there's an article. I don't know if you remember PJ,
but I think it was in the New York Times
the Wall Street Journal. It's like the NBA's most underpaid man,
and it was a picture of So I'm sitting on
the baseline and practice one day up in the stands
and PJ comes over with the big rent in his face.
He's like, hey, Ryan, do you see that article?

Speaker 4 (31:14):
You know?

Speaker 2 (31:14):
And I was, and i'd seen it, but I was like, no,
you know, what are you talking about. He was like,
I'll text it to you.

Speaker 4 (31:19):
So I think the.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Next year, you know, he got his first significant NBA contract.
But I don't know why I just thought of that story.
It comes to mind because.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
He that was, you know, it's funny, like I thought
it was awesome at first, I was like, I don't
know if I loved that day.

Speaker 4 (31:37):
That was that was awesome. Those are still I still
talk about those Phoenix days. We weren't picked to be good,
but we were just dogs. Man.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
We just had a bunch of guys that were super close.
We all to this day, we're still all friends, but
we it was the dog days, man. We just went
every single day. Our practices were worse than games, like
we we literally we would kill each other practice. All
these guys loved being a gym, love working out, love playing,
And that year they picked us one be one of

(32:05):
the worst teams in the league, but we came out.

Speaker 4 (32:08):
It was the game away from being in the playoffs.
Was unreal.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
You know, it's a season where we didn't make it,
but it was still an unbelievable season to make the
jump that we did that year.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
PJ. I just want to rewind for a quick second.
You said when you were over in Europe, you were there,
you were committed, you weren't really thinking about the NBA.
So how did you or your agent keep you relevant
in the NBA and how did this opportunity with Phoenix
present itself and just lastly, you know Toronto maybe wasn't
the perfect fit. On the draft night, What did you

(32:38):
put into your decision as to which team you were
going to pick to return to the NBA to play for.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
That's actually a really good question. That was probably half
of my decision was because it was Lance. I've known
Lance since I was in He went to Texas, I
went to Texas. Uh. He's the first NBA person I
talked to when he was because at the time he
was with Cleveland as assistant GM and he was a
big part of the reason for everything for like as

(33:07):
far as NBA for me early on. So when he
called and I don't know what andre, I don't know
what he did to keep it relevant. I don't know
if I was relevant. I have no idea how any
of this even came about. I know it was the
sum of the opportunity and I was making a decision
on even going so h me going playing well, it's
still for me was not enough to get me to

(33:29):
come back.

Speaker 4 (33:31):
It was Lance.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
It felt good, but I just know I worked so
hard over the last few years to build up what
I had, uh, and I didn't want to spoil it
all coming back to NBA and kind of going through
the same situation again, and that that in itself, you
gotta put some you have some belief in yourself, and obviously, uh,
you know, I believed in myself, but to double down

(33:52):
and come back and you know, saying we know it,
let me give this another run, let me get us
another try. It took a lot out of me to
do that, and I credit Lance Recipe as blanks. But
Lance had my back the whole time and just told
me what he wanted me to do. And he told
me if I did that, I'll be playing a long time.
And he was right.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
PJ, what were your biggest concerns coming back?

Speaker 4 (34:14):
Like?

Speaker 1 (34:14):
What was what was the fear? What was the anxiety
about returning to the NBA.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
I knew I was a better player, but my my
thing was did not get a chance. I feel like
in Toronto I never got a chance to even prove
or show what I could do. I feel like once
I did that, I could I could actually play. You know,
I just show that I could actually play, But I
still didn't know if I would actually get a chance.
When I looked at the Sun's roster, you know, it

(34:39):
looked like maybe I could, you know, get a chance
and you know whatever, but it still doesn't meanything. In NBA,
you never know, and that uncertainty was what did.

Speaker 4 (34:49):
It for me.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Y if that had one of the challenges that fringe
NBA players have, which PJA was at the time, do
you go overseas and be a star and make the solid,
guaranteed money or do you hang around the G League
you make really no money, but then you're more on
the radar of teams and the call ups easier. Right
if they need a player, they can get you immediately.
You can be on a plane at the arena that night.

(35:12):
So that's the balance that he went through PG. One
of the things that I knew but really stood out
to me when I was doing research for the show
and going through your career history, especially after Toronto and Phoenix,
was just how many great players and future Hall of
famers you played with. So for our listeners, I'll rattle
off a bunch of names, take it whichever way you wanted, Tuck,

(35:34):
but the guys that I think are likely going to
the Hall of Fame that you played with or Kyle
Lowry and Toronto James Harden and Chris Paul and Houston
actually played with James three times if my math is correct,
with Philly and the Clippers as well, Jannis in Milwaukee
the magical twenty twenty one championship season, Jimmy Butler in Miami,
Joel Embiid as well as Kawhi, Leonard, Paul George, and

(35:57):
then most recently this year, Jalen Brunson and Anthony Towns
may be headed the Hall of Fame as well. So
by my account, PJ, that's about ten Hall of Famers.
What stands out to you in any common traits or
things that those guys have in common when you look
back at your all time great teammates.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
Oh man pooh, I think all those guys the folk
like the laser focus. Who gotta have to be that great?
Those guys have it and it's and it's is something
that only players understand. When you're out there and you're playing,

(36:35):
you know, the big moments you go through all the
trials and two places of the season. When you get
those big moments in games and then in the playoffs
and the games, those guys the way they lock in
to be able to win, I think, I think It's
something that young guys and the average basketball fan, they'll
never understand the level where it kind of where you're

(36:56):
kind of at the level and then you just kind
of level up even more where kind of like the
separation of all those guys have that.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
That's it's amazing. I think the other commonality of those
ten players as they played with you.

Speaker 5 (37:12):
There now all joking aside though, like PJ you've talked
about like so many champions are shaped by the challenges
and adversities they have throughout their career.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
But who are some of your mentors? Like how did
you become this excellent teammate the guy who pushes guys, establishes,
you know, standards of excellence and holds guys to those standards, Like,
how did you become that? Who are some of the
mentors you were trying to trying to follow in their footsteps?

Speaker 4 (37:40):
That's a going I don't. I think most of my
mentors were were coaches.

Speaker 3 (37:48):
Honestly, Dan Marley was the start. Dan helped me a
ton when I first got back. He was our coach
for some league and Thunder literally kind of helped me
just mold this role of what he thought and what
I would soon to think that would become PJ. Tucker
right like hanging well, I was to hang my hat on,

(38:11):
and he was just wanted me to pick everybody up,
want me to turn everybody in the back court, pressure
the ball every single possession, getting every fifty fifty ball right,
running everything down, being able to stress to court and
being consistent making the corner three and putting the work
in the be able through spoe shooter. He stressed bringing

(38:31):
my teammates in all the time. Communication part of that aspect,
being able to talk so many things, and he like
he just helped me piece all these pieces together to
be able to be this complete role player and to
be able to help my team win no matter you know,
the situation or adversities throughout throughout the season or year,
and those things. It's so because people talk about it

(38:55):
and I don't. It's all the things I naturally did
from playing with Rick, from playing playing on the rig.
You get all those all those things I just talked about.
You get all of that plan from him. You know,
it's it's incredible, and I to you need the confidence
to be able to continue to do it as a
pro because your voice isn't as big and uh. But

(39:15):
that's why I think the coaches were more than mentors,
having uh d'An TONI where he literally just empowered me
to be fully everything I was almost didn't no wrong
in Mike's eyes. Mike, just if I said it, then
that's what it was, you know, Mike. Mike gave me
a confidence and in my voice to be able to

(39:36):
be the main guy on the team. Uh from a
role standpoint, and and it sounds crazy. We're playing with
Chris Ball, uh, Tan Tarden, all this, all the great guys,
playing with Eric Gordon. We had a bunch of guys.
But to have that vocal role in that team with
all those great players, he empowered me to do that,
and that I think he just took my leadership to
a whole other level.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Dig were a this show just a few days after
the OKC Thunder won the twenty twenty five NBA Championship.
But I want you to take us back to twenty
twenty one. You were only with the Milwaukee Bucks one year.
It was a magical year. You guys were down two
in the NBA Finals against the Phoenix Suns. You broke
a lot of hearts to be honest, I still lived

(40:19):
in the valley at that time. As one of the
most popular sons of the last few decades. That historic comeback.
So take us back now, you know, four years later,
what stands out to you and then specifically if you
could get into Giannis because he had one of the
all time great performances in the history of the playoffs.
Remember what he did in that game six to win it.
His free throw percentage, which had been an issue for him,

(40:41):
I was off the charts in that clinching Game six.
What stands out to you as you reflect four years later.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
Oh man stands out the most Probably the finals, being
down two and being in a locker room, walking in
the locker room at the game two and everybody being like,
we're gonna win this. It was a it was a
confidence after losing, uh and that was a swagger that

(41:10):
was kind of built by that team. It was one
of those things where it was like and it wasn't
it wasn't super verbal, that's high five, and it was
just that calm confidence of we're gonna win, Like that's okay,
that's what they got. We're gonna win this series. And
we said it from the beginning from walking into the

(41:30):
locked from that night for the next four games, game
by game, walking it down, go and take your business, guys,
literally locked in. To be able to win four games
in a row and to be a part of a
team that was mature enough to be able to recognize
what was going on U and make the adjustments to
be able to win and those situations was incredible. And

(41:52):
I think that that's the number one things that stands
out for that team.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
It was it was literally from man, whatever it takes
to win, whatever we got to do. Uh. And like
you were saying about Gianni's being incredible in that series,
he had just got hurt in Atlanta the series before
we finished that series out brook lope As was incredible. Uh,
Game five six against Atlanta. But to get to the

(42:19):
Suns and Giannis comes back where people thought he was
still going to be out and I think he went
for fifty first game or something like that, and it
was incredible.

Speaker 4 (42:28):
We lost.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
And at the game too, we had like a little
team meeting.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
With Gianni's about you know, what we thought we need
to do to win and you know, some little things
to him and he never he never took anything personal
he never like at all, like one word, he was
like okay, guys, and and we went from there and
then that, and that the maturity of him, even at
that time, he wanted to win that bad. One of

(42:55):
the most fiercest competitors I've ever played with. He's like,
he's like Mike Tyson, got each your kids, Like he'll
dunk on on baby, Like he doesn't care. And he
plays that hard and he's of out that much where
every day in practice, every time he lays him up,
he's just one thousand percent. And that's the one thing
I respect most about him. When I speak about eyes PJ.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
You've played in the playoffs the last nine seasons. Over
that time, you've gone from kind of being a starter
playing in the playoffs to a rotational player to a
role player. Now, how has your role your preparation changed
at all in those nine years or is it exactly
the same regardless of the role you have.

Speaker 4 (43:33):
It's been exactly the same.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
I literally I still warm up like I'm about to
play thirty five minutes forty minutes a game. I still mentally,
I still do all the same things every single game.
And it may sound and it me and oh It's
funny because Jeff Jetz has a podcast. He played with
me in the Walk game. Jeff is the probably the

(43:56):
funniest player player I've ever played with.

Speaker 4 (43:58):
He's Hilaryrius.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
But I talked to Jeff. I was like, Yo, you
know it's crazy. I was like, I really, I still
warm up. I tell him I have to go warm
up and he's like for what, He's like, you ain't
get it a game. I was like, I know. I
was like, but I still warm up and do the
same things every single game to be able to mentally
be there every time I had to.

Speaker 4 (44:20):
It's a part of my routine. It's part of my regiment.
It is a part of me.

Speaker 3 (44:23):
Being locked into the game is a part of the
professional showing the young guys this is what this is
what it takes. I've played for the Venison Playoffs series
for you know, for years. I know what it takes
to get there and what it takes to be locked
in and maintain that throughout the season, throughout the playoffs,

(44:44):
and it's more mental.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
It is all mental. It's all mental.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
Be able to be locked in for a game, you
know everything that's going on, doing the coverage, just knowing
everything being able to you know, I'm talking on the side,
but I'm talking from a standpoint of know how and
studying the game and knowing who we're playing and what
we're trying to do. And I think that's why guys,
you know, love you know my communication. It's not always

(45:06):
the best in certain times, but it's always from a
positive place of wing to win.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
So I think that's what guys were specting at PGA.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Nothing I think surprises guys like you and that. And
I have been around pro sports for decades now, Sad
and I did a recent episode about how many coaches
of the Year in the NBA and manager of the
Year in Major League Baseball were fired shortly thereafter.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
So take us inside.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
You know your experience this year, you got added to
the knixt mid season. It was a magical run in
New York. The best next season in you know, past
twenty five or so years. Tom Thibodeaux got fired. You know,
it was not nothing shocks me anymore. That was a
bit of a surprise. So given how well the team did,
and given his relationship with Leon Rose in the front office.
So what was your experience like playing for Tips and

(45:52):
what was it like to be in New York and
be in Manhattan with the Knicks having one of their
best seasons in the past few decades.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
It was incredible just to be in New York during
that time. It was unbelievable. I mean, you can imagine
the fans of fans from one of a com but uh,
I think, uh, you know, comingto this situation late, uh
and and really just coming straight into being an event
leadership role.

Speaker 4 (46:17):
It was kind of weird at first, from not being
on the team to.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Just jumping straight into being like the vocal leader and
you know, being all that. Uh. It took me a
couple of weeks to get in, but once I got in,
I was in. I think, Uh, Tims. Tims is one
of those coaches where he's gonna get everything out of
guys out there, right, He's gonna push everybody to the break,
you know, having been being the voice of the team,

(46:43):
you know everybody, you know, super respect level for for
Tims just through the roof.

Speaker 4 (46:48):
You know, he demands that.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Now. I love the attention to detail of every single game,
having to focus h you know, and even even in coverage,
being able to have conversation with him and talk about
things that going on with the team. Uh, he's just
one of those guys, you know, defensive coach and his
strong willed and I love that. And I think that

(47:10):
that's what made it even more surprising than me when
he got to let go. So I was I've been
with a couple of coaches that have pretty good seasons
get fired, So it's always surprising. But that's just one
of those things. That's just one of those where you
just don't You just never know. Man, in this league,
you never know what type of coach. Do you think

(47:30):
we'll have the most success coaching the next moving forward?

Speaker 4 (47:33):
Oh that's a good question. Now, that's a really good question.
I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
I'll say that I don't know because the versatility of
our team is so good, and I think that's what
made us so good, being able to play different ways,
even you know, I was even around the team when
Jalen went out when he wrote wrote his ankle of
how we kind of changed up how we played and
we went through a couple other guys at different times

(47:59):
and still being able to win, you know, minus the
All NBA player. That's how good our team was. So
I think it's a coach that it's going to be
able to make adjustments, being able to switch it up,
not just still be one thing, being able to win
different ways. You know, obviously be able to hang our
head on defense and play it hard, but just a

(48:20):
coach with some versatility.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
PJA, your career has kind of come full circle from
being the young, somewhat immature guy out of Texas going
to Europe, as we discussed now, to being one of
the old heads, one of the veterans in the locker room.
At forty years old, you're one of the oldest players
still playing. Give us your pitch talk if that night
your GMS, if you know you're talking to either Leon
Rose or Worldwide West in the Knicks front office or

(48:44):
the other twenty nine gms. What do you bring at
this stage in your career with your age and experience
and in track record of winning, I mean, your track
record of being in the playoffs pretty much every year
is really exceptional of it really the last decade. What
do you think you still can bring to an NBA team?

Speaker 4 (49:00):
Literally everything we just talked about. It's funny.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Just being able to still be healthy, which has been
the biggest blessing, especially this later part of my career,
not be injury free, uh, to still be able to
actually play basketball, but at the same time being a
guy that you never got to worried about. Always count on. No,
always going to have young guys in their place. Uh No,
always gonna have you know, the main guys back keeping

(49:27):
them the line, making sure everything's going right and the
locker room's good. Uh, it's always positive. Everybody's still together,
locking the team in. UH. And being being able to
be a guys prepared for every stage of the season.
I think that's the biggest part, especial who got a
lot of young to middle range guys being up to
stay focused for a whole entire season, upside down, the road,
coast over the season, always being locked in, being prepared, uh,

(49:51):
and focus and get ready for the task a hand
every single day.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
PJ, We're gonna help you build your deck. Here for
a second. You've won championships, You've been an MVP. I
want to ask you, like, how much do these quotes
mean to you? You donnas had them, says I love PJ.
He only complains about bad defense. That's the kind of
teammate I want to round. Jimmy Butler PJ is one
of the biggest reasons why we're winning here. And I

(50:14):
hope I don't mispronounce this guy's name, George's Nyang. That
guy's a warrior. He's someone that will run through a
brick wall and run through the other team to help
his team. He knows what it takes to get to
the top of the mountain. I'm extremely excited to play
alongside of him. What do those quotes mean to you?

Speaker 3 (50:32):
That's the reason why you still play right, Like that
stuff is like why, but a million reasons why.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
For me, that's top of the top of the list.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
Is the best part about playing this game is the
relationships you build with the guys that you're alongside and
you go to Woolward every single night. The lifetime relationships
I've seen gorgeous past year and we're just we say, hey,
we just hugged each other, like he's my guy, Like
he's a fox old guy. I'll my playing with it,

(51:02):
playing against for years and he'll always be my brother.
And it's those relationships and having guys respect you to
that level, especially when you're a role guy where you're
not you know, the main guy is scoring thirty at
night and doing all this stuff.

Speaker 4 (51:17):
But when you're in the church, is just doing everything.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
It takes them winning every night and not caring about
anything but winning heavy. Your teammates appreciate that means the world,
So that means everything.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
He is PJ Tucker. You've seen him on NBA courts
for almost two decades. You almost certainly see him again
next season because everywhere he goes, that team wins. It's
been in the playoffs nine years in a row, the
championship in twenty twenty one, the next in the Eastern
Conference finals this season. We'll see what next year holds.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
PJ.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Thanks for joining us on Rosters to Rings. That Levine
and I will be back with more right after this
Welcome back to Rosters to Rings. He's Ryan mcdonoughh and

(52:08):
Fad Levine. What a wonderful conversation with PJ. Tucker and Apropos.
The question of the week from our listeners ties directly
into this Ryan. It comes from d W of Denver,
Colorado says, watching the NBA Finals, I heard the broadcasters
talk a lot about the impact of James Johnson and
Jalen Williams. Can you talk about the impact role players

(52:28):
have on championship teams. Absolutely fat. Let's start with those
two guys in particular. James Johnson is also known as
the scariest guy in the NBA. He's the one that
every time they do one of these fun player polls,
who is the guy you would least like to fight,
Who's the guy you want on your side if a
fight breaks out, James Johnson is always number one by

(52:49):
a wide margin. Come from a family of mixed martial artists.
I believe they're from Wisconsin. So this guy's a legendary
tough guy in NBA circles that posing players don't even
dare test. They kind of back down, and even the
guys you think are tough kind of power to James Johnson.
But I think with him. And then yeah, Jalen Williams
on OKAC. Used to be clear, we're talking about the

(53:10):
Arkansas Jaylen Williams, the third string center for the Thunder,
not the guy who is just Okaysee's second best player,
the perimeter guy out of Santa Clarita. Jalen Williams, the
center on the Thunder. I think what those two guys
have in particular, that is the respect of their teammates,
and they're different. James Johnson is more in the PJ.
Tucker mold. He's been around the league, he's you know,

(53:31):
been a very good player, he's been a role player.
Now in his role with the Indiana Pacers, he really
doesn't play much, if at all. But you know, it's
interesting you watch him. You're in the finals, and he's
done this throughout the year. He's to some extent, Tyre's
Halliburton's bodyguard. I know Terrus Hay Aliburton doesn't necessarily need that,
but I think it's it's a mindset in a mentality

(53:52):
fad where he's out on the court before Tyre's Haliburt
and he's watching him making sure there's no, you know,
any problems. He waits for Haliburton after he does his
post interviews or whatever. So that leadership, combined with the
vocal leadership in the locker room, is a lot of
the reason guys like PJ. Tucker and James Johnson continue
to get jobs and stick around, you know, later in
their career at a time in ages where most players

(54:13):
have cycled out of the NBA and moved on to
other pursuits. Jalen Williams is a little bit different than
that that he's a younger player. He's only been in
the league a handful of years out of Arkansas. But
certain guys stand out because of their professionalism, because of
their approach. As you know, it's not just what you
do on the court, it's what you do in particular
in these kind of roles off the court. How professional

(54:35):
are you in practice in the weight room, on the
team bus or the team plane at events in the community. Really,
how do you live your life? How do you carry yourself?
And they are you a guy that other players can
emulate and that the organization can look to as an
example for those other players say, look, if you act
like this guy, you're going to be fine. So for
me that a couple of guys stand out in my

(54:56):
career that I've been around. With the Celtics we had
Jeff Green had also Ish Smith and Ronnie Price in Phoenix,
and then of course PJ. Tucker, who we just interviewed.
But for you that who are some of the guys
as you look back on your career, you know, with
the Rockies, with the Rangers, the Twins, other some veteran
leaders who stand out to you as exemplary players and
people in that clubhouse.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
Well, it seems like Jeff Green is the Where's Waldo
of rosters to rings. He's going to show up in
every one of our episodes at some point.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
I think we've talked about this a little bit before,
but when you're building a championship roster, I think what
the fans see is it's really a living organism. And
I always felt like you could buy muscle if you
needed to buy muscle. In baseball. That shows up in
the forms of home runs, RBI, getting pitched. Like if
you're willing to spend on the free agent market, if
you're willing to trade prospects to get those types of players,

(55:48):
those guys are readily available almost every trade deadline every
off season. The guys that we're talking about, though, were
a little bit different. I view those guys as the
heart and soul players. Those are the players who have
the ability to elevate level of play of the people
around them and the genuine care to invest in that commitment.
And I think those are such unique players. I think
we're hunting them every offseason. We're trying to build those

(56:11):
guys into your clubhouse. Because they really accentuate the championship culture.
Regardless of what people like Ryan and I say, or
even what the head coach or the manager says. If
the peers are saying it and holding each other to
those standards, that's when change is affected. That's when culture
really takes root. And so what I look back to
some of the championship teams that I got to work

(56:32):
for and some of the guys who transformed those locker rooms.
One guy that jumps out to mind Jeff Frankcor in
twenty ten the Texas Rangers. We actually acquired him on
August thirty first, which meant that he was not going
to be eligible to play in the playoffs for US,
and in one month's time it certainly helped that he
hit three forty, but I think he really elevated a
locker room that wasn't perfectly sure that they were poised

(56:54):
to win at that time, never played in the playoffs
as a team, and he kind of came in with
this incredible attitude of why not us and why not now?
And I think the guys really bought into that. It
was pretty special. Other guys who jumped to mind in
my career, Darren Oliver was an exceptional pitcher, a rock.
He was a guy who had been a very successful
starting pitcher, reinvented himself as a relief pitcher, and he

(57:17):
really raised the standard of excellence in our bullpen. And
I always felt the best teams I was around had
a leader in the position player unit, the starting pitching unit,
and the relief unit. He was every bit the captain
of our bullpen. Another guy who had exceptional swagger. Ryan
was a guy that you had overlapped with as at
Boston Red Sox fan. His name's Mike Napoley. Mike Napley

(57:37):
was just a guy who unbuttoned his shirt about down
to the sternum, just let it all hang out. Had
a lot of your card noir on every game, just
in case, and he just carried himself as if he
was better than anybody on the field, and often he
was right. He was an exceptional boost to the overall
confidence of the team. He really transformed that team. And

(57:58):
then one guy in Minnesota was Christian jim Andez who
was at the time the backup catcher. But he was
a guy who really elevated the room. Really exceptional players
just so blessed to be around those guys, and I
will say we hunted a lot of these types of guys,
these types of guys who elevated the room make up.
There were a lot of wrong decisions along the way,

(58:18):
but when you stumbled upon the right ones, as PJ expressed, like,
it's just amazing how they really enhanced your chances of
winning a championship.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Well, they're so necessary that I think to be a
successful team in any sport, because if we're being honest,
there's only so much the executives and even the head
coaching manager can tell the players. If it's not being
mirrored in the locker room, if you have an immature
group or a group that's less than professional, it's going
to be hard to win at the highest levels. And

(58:47):
the opposite is true. And that's why those guys you
just mentioned stand out, as do on the NBA side,
know PJ. Tucker, Ish Smith, Jeff Green and others. James
Posey is another great veteran we had with the Boston
Celtic who went on to win multiple championships in his career.
Because teams just know what they can get, and I
think that's one of the things that that executives really appreciate.

(59:09):
You know, to be consistent, dependable, and reliable. You don't
have to be great, but if you can be consistent, dependable,
and reliable in a low maintenance round, ideally a no
maintenance player, then that helps a lot. And that helps
teams because one of the things, you know, we talk
about in the NBA is you have to be better
than the some of your problems. So whatever your problems

(59:29):
are on the quarter, in particular off the court, look
if you're the thirteenth to fifteenth man, you can't be
causing a lot of issues because it's easier to just
get ready you and bringing somebody else, you know, like
a PJ. Tucker, like a Ronnie Price, like some of
the guys I mentioned, who are going to be great
soldiers who will run through a wall. Whatever the role is,
they're going to accept it and they're going to uplift others.
So I think that's one of the things that's so

(59:49):
important that and one of the neat things for me,
you know, having to just talk to PJ. Tucker and
see the appreciation for not only what he's been able
to do in his career, but also so young players
who have reached out fact we talked about a couple
of them off air. We won't mention that, but it's
really neat to see how touch PJ. Tucker is when
players reach out and say, hey, man, I didn't get

(01:00:10):
it as a young guy. Now I understand all those
lessons you were telling me when I was in my
teens or early twenties. They're sinking through now because the
reality is that in the NBA in particular, once you
get out of the NBA and you go overseas, it's
very difficult to claw your way back.

Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
PJ.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Tucker is the exception rather than the rule.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
So hopefully there's maybe some well at least one young
player a couple listening to this who have some talent
but maybe haven't figured out the professional aspect of it,
because I think in any sport it is incredibly important.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
Well, and I think that's my biggest takeaway. You knew PJ. Well,
I just got to get to know him in this conversation.
I mean, the fact that he still warms up for
every single game as if he's going to play forty
minutes just set such a tone I think throughout the group. Also,
his humility and citing all the people who really invested
in him along the way. And it's art with Rick

(01:01:00):
Barnes and the testament he gave to him, you know,
his reflection on what transpired in Toronto, and he's not
blaming anybody, He's taking accountability for those situations. And he
grew through those moments. You know, that's probably why he's
the exception rather than the rule of a guy who
goes over to Europe and never returns. And now he's
being sought after by championship caliber organizations. And it's not

(01:01:23):
to go out there and play thirty forty minutes. It's
not to lead the team in rebounding. It's to lead
the team on the bench and set the tone for
these guys. And one an exceptional legacy he has now
that he has some of these younger players reaching back
out to him. And you know, I think for generations
to come, people will site back to PJ. Tucker, who
influenced a guy who influenced me, who I now want

(01:01:45):
to influence someoney in my career based upon the investment
that PJ took in him. You know, one thing I
look back at another guy who jumps out that I
didn't mention earlier, was David Ross, who played for the
Chicago Cubs. I remember as a as a rival executive,
the Chicago Cubs break their curse and win in twenty sixteen,
and I thought post game one of the most noteworthy

(01:02:06):
things was that Chris Bryantjavey Baias, John Lester, Anthony Rizzo,
their star quartet, all cited David Ross as the leader
on that team. And statistically, David Ross probably had washed
out of the game years before, but they all referenced
him as the guy who was the glue who kept
them together. And then it made me look at it.
You know, of the thirty major league managers right now,

(01:02:28):
twenty of them played in the big leagues. I think
fifteen of them you would classify as a utility player,
a backup catcher or platoon player. Those guys probably were
similar to PJ. Tucker in their careers, guys who just
elevated the room, you know, extended the excellence standards throughout
the organization. Now they're big league managers, I think there's
a real strong time to those guys, and a guy

(01:02:50):
like PJ. Tucker, I wonder if he has any interest
in coaching down the road. My guess is. He'd be
very popular in the locker room.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
I think he'd be great at it. He mentioned the
impact that Dan Marley thunder Dan, a Phoenix Suns legend
who was never an NBA head coach. He was an
assistant coach with the Phoenix Suns the year before I
got there. He and I became good friends when I
lived in Phoenix. But yes, it's not always the obvious
ones that right. It's not always the star player, the
head coach, or the manager. Who has the biggest influence
can be somebody else organizationally who the players respect and emulate.

(01:03:20):
And pj's respect for Dan Marley was clear in that segment. Well,
thanks for joining us folks on rosters to rings stat
As always, I enjoyed it. Come back next week. There's
a lot going on right now that we're going to
get into next week. Will know what happened in the
NBA Draft, who was taken, where were there any big trades.
Will also be into NBA free agency. That's how quickly
these things come up, folks, The draft and free agency

(01:03:41):
back to back, and then will be within a month
of the Major League Baseball trade deadline. I want to
get Thad's take on that as well. He is stad Levine.
I am Ryan McDonough. Thanks for joining us on Rosters
to Ring.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Please join me host bad Levine, Ryan McDonough and other
general managers every week for Roster Syrings on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
Welcome