Weird Stuff Happens in Fresno with Jeff Passan

Thad and Jon sit down with ESPN’s premier baseball insider Jeff Passan for an in-depth conversation about his journey from a local reporter in Fresno to one of the most trusted voices in the game. Jeff opens up about his rise through Yahoo Sports, the art and ethics of breaking news, building sources, and the importance of integrity in journalism.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Rosters to Rings. Alongside John Daniels, we're here
with a great show today. We have got guest Jeff
Passen joining us in the second segment. In the first
segment that we want to address the listener's questions and
the question today JD is how different is the job
of being the general manager of the New York Yankees
compared to your job as the Texas Rangers or when

(00:27):
I was with the Minnesota Twins. And I want to
give you a little background here of some facts that
I looked up of one of the ways that it's different.
So if you look at the team payrolls for twenty
twenty five, and this is according to spot track, the
Yankees have a three hundred and sixteen million dollar pay roll.
Texas has two hundred and thirty five million dollar payroll,
in Minnesota one hundred and forty million. Those are round figures.

(00:49):
TV revenue for New York is one hundred and forty
five million. For Texas, they're hoping quote hoping to get
sixty million in their new deal. Minnesota was down to
twenty five million. Pretty big disparity there. Total revenue for
the New York Yankees approximately seven hundred and twenty eight
million dollars for Texas four hundred and six from Minnesota

(01:10):
three hundred and twenty four. So I think those numbers
speak to massive disparities between those three jobs. But what's
your initial reaction to the question, how different would it
be to be the general manager of the New York Yankees,
to be Brian Cashman versus being you or being me
in our previous roles.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Who was I think there's just by definitely there's a
lot of similarities. Right, our goals are as far as
winning World Series or our goals are largely the same. Competitively,
expectations certainly very different. One thing before I jumped totally
into that, I do wanted to say that we lead
off with the revenue disparity, the payroll disparity. It certainly

(01:49):
paids a picture that it's like it's easier to be
the big market club, and there are absolutely advantages that
go along with that, right, there are levels of free
agents that you know, when you have a lower payroll,
lower budget, et cetera, that you're just not going to
even consider, you know that being sad, I just think
it's worthwhile pointing out I think cash Brian Cashman, the

(02:09):
GM of the Yankees been going. He's pushing thirty years
and he's never had a season where they finished under
five hundred.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Like that's that's remarkable, right.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
And while he's got the revenue advantages, there are a
lot of other big market clubs that have revenue advantages
that have struggled to win, you know, much less a
World Series. We struggled to you know, have string together
consecutive years of success. So I think it's worth pointing
that out. And part of that, in my opinion, is
because the there was a time I think where the

(02:41):
smaller market clubs, smaller payroll clubs in this example, well
maybe Minnesota, you had to be ahead in kind of
the scouting and development side, they had to be ahead,
and on R and D and some of these other side.
And now you know, with those revenues, the big market
clubs aren't just pouring them into the the major league clubs.
Not just about payroll, they're also pooriam into the infrastructure,

(03:02):
and they're competing on those fronts, and that, in my opinion,
is where it's made it even more challenging for.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
Some of these smaller market clubs.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I think
the numbers that I stated at the outset pain and
picture of the resources that some of the big market
clubs have, it doesn't mean their goals are any different.
I know that when we work together in Texas, when
I was in Minnesota, we're not making excuses like we're
all trying to win. You know, in Texas, you guys
also signed Corey Seeger, Marcus Semeon. You know, recent recent

(03:32):
signings that were pretty significant, you know, high dollar values
of guys like Jacob de Gram and Nathan A. Valdi.
And Minnesota they signed Carlos Correo while I was there,
they extended guys like Iron Buxton and Pablo Lopez Like
it's you know, I think these teams are still able
to access those players. I think we always talked about it.
It's just the mistakes you make in the smaller markets

(03:53):
when your denominator is less, are more significant, and they
require you to then really think cyclically around are we
building towards a crescendo where we hope to keep our
window open as long as possible, but realistically we know
for every time we're trying to go for it, we're
probably expending a lot of our prospect capital to build

(04:14):
out those championship caliber teams because there's only so much
we can spend on the free agent market. And when
you continue to make buyside trades, eventually you're going to
have a little bit of a lull in your organization
because you will have gutted your farm system to the
point where you're going to need to rebuild. As you illuminated,
you know, one of the benefits of having the resources

(04:34):
the Yankees have is they don't really have to rebuild.
That doesn't mean they're guaranteed to do well. As you said,
the fact that Brian Cashman has done such an excellent
job without having to rebuild is pretty a pretty remarkable feat.
But when you're running Texas, when you're running Minnesota and
some of the other you know, secondary and third markets,
there is an acknowledgment that you're trying to keep that
window open as long as you can, but there is

(04:56):
going to be a rebuild probably on the horizon, because
if you win as Tech did from twenty ten to
twenty sixteen, if you do that for six seven years consecutively,
when you are then also making buyside trades to aggressively
try to improve your chances of winning. There is going
to be a lull coming after that, and that is
what transpired in Texas. But that was only because of

(05:16):
the massive amount of success that you had engineered and
orchestrated and architected leading up to that. That's something you
probably don't necessarily see or have to concede in places
like New York because if your farm systems a little depleted,
you can spend aggressively on the free agent market. If
your payrolls a little bit flush, that means you've kept

(05:36):
your farm system intact, and so they're just those resources
allow you to keep the window open a little bit longer.
It shouldn't necessarily prohibit the smaller and mid market teams
from peak performing. I think that's all excellent points.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
All these.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Clubs an time moore on a payroll side, that than
how you spend infrastructural wise. But all these clubs have
different gup. Right, some of them are provided by the
c b A. Right, the Yankees at their level have
you know, they're paying attacks and there's some other disadvantages
with you that they could be subject to with the
draft picks and international depending upon you know their their behaviors.

(06:15):
And you know the Rangers and the example you gave
are you know, they're very close to the first level,
the CBT, and so that that's a decision they've got
to make and understand the consequence of that ownerships leveled.
Are they willing to cross over it? And I think
on the smaller marketside, you don't necessarily have the c
BA governors. You have you have your own you have

(06:36):
your own payroll and your own budget that you've got
to you know, be mindful of.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
The advantages there in some ways though, is there's a
forced discipline that comes with that, right, So you're not listen,
some of the biggest for agent contracts have been you know,
huge wins, and you touched on a few of them
for those clubs that have really like leveled them up competitively.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
But there's also risk, right, there's.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
Also us the free agent contract could go sideway as
a guy gets hurt, or he declines quicker than you thought,
or you know, whatever happens. And there's a forced discipline
associated with being a lower revenue club where you're not
you're not going to get the benefit of the ones
that go well, but you're also not going to walk
into a little bit of a bad situation if a

(07:20):
contract goes sideways.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
I couldn't agree with you more. You know, like just
personalizing my assessment of the Carlos Korea error with the twins,
I just would share these insights, which is, you know,
before the signing of Carlos Korea, I think the Minnesota
fan base conceded that they just were never going to
access that top tier of free agents, so they were
eligible to consider the second tier on down. I think

(07:44):
the signing of Carlos Care and the pole Atte family
endorsing that signing was such a watershed moment for the
franchise that allowed them to understand they were worthy of
accessing the best players on the market. Secondarily, I think
Carlos before he even set foot on the field an
impact which he ultimately did do. He raised the standards
of excellence for the franchise, which I think they're going

(08:05):
to feel for decades to come. They really modernize their
advanced scouting, some of their coaching techniques, from their strategic
planning techniques. Heck, even the food service was revolutionized by him.
Now to your point, though, once it is clear that
they're not necessarily in a win now cycle, you really
can't afford to then continue to carry a player like

(08:27):
that because he just represents too large of a percentage
of your payroll. If the revenues aren't there to continue
to support building championship players around him. It really is
tantamount to the success of that team then to move
on from them from that type of player. Whereas a
team like the Yankees with a bigger payroll may be
able to hold onto that player for a longer period
of time without risk, the Minnesota Twins needed to move

(08:50):
them on, so as much as he was a positive
contributor for that franchise for the period of time us here,
I think it was very important that they traded him
at the deadline. He's a much better fit for Houston,
who is continuing to try to win a championship at
this stage in their development. He's a championship environment player.
He's going to perform better for them than he probably
will for the Twins right now, especially as the Twins

(09:13):
embark upon a little bit of a rebuild.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, it's interesting to talk about a percentage of payroll
and and how you know, revenues can fluctuate, especially in
the smaller market with winning season or or I'm kind
of drawn to, you know, AJ the San Diego situated.
You our old friend, a J Preller coworker, and you know,
they have they've gone from a revenue sharing recipient to

(09:38):
a revenue sharing payer and that's you know, in one
of the smaller markets by how we define them in
the country. It's pretty remarkable, right. I mean, we've we've
both had a chance last year to go out and
see them play in the playoffs and in the environment
that's created in the fan base, and you know, I.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Hope, I think, I think it's good for the game.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
I hope, I hope for you know a lot of
I hope that they can sustain it because I think
it when you level up a market like that revenue wise,
and I don't have access to all the numbers, obviously,
but I just think that that's the kind of thing
that should be rewarded in the game when you have
a small market that's now able to punch above its weight.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah. I mean, I think what we went in this
firsthand when we went out there, which is one was
the outrageous price of beers in stadiums. That was shocking,
but two is just like how a team can really
galvanize a whole community. You know, they're drawing forty five
thousand fans on Tuesday nights now, whereas before that was
kind of just like a scenic trip for people who

(10:40):
are visiting San Diego was like, oh, let's go watch
a Padres game. Now you're standing room only there. And
so they've really energized a whole community around a baseball team,
which is spectacular. One thing I think we also have
to tip our hat to cash about is, you know,
with those resources, comes at a heck of a lot
more scrutiny and where shows up.

Speaker 4 (11:00):
I'm thinking of twofold.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
One is you know, I don't know how many people
you would say actually cover the Texas Rangers, but I
can tell you in Minnesota there's you know, six to
eight people who are covering the team on a regular basis.
Anytime you go visit the New York Yankees, they're literally
sometimes one hundred people covering that team. Every one of
their moves is scrutinized at an exceptionally high level. And
then the other thing I would say is Brian Cashman,

(11:22):
in my opinion, is going to be a first ballot
Hall of Famer when he decides to retire. That said,
it seems like almost every off season there's the conversation
levied of should this be his last season there? Because
they didn't win a World Series, and so it's like
it is a World Series or bust environment there, you know,
So with the resources comes exceptionally high expectations, exceptionally strict scrutiny,

(11:46):
and I can only imagine the amount of stress that
he feels on a daily basis, which, if we're calling
it like it is, the stress that we've had in
our markets probably is a little bit more commensurate to
the resources. Everyone expects you to win, wants you to win,
hold you accountable to it. But I don't think anything
compares to the level that Brian Cashman has to endure on.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
A day in, a day out basis. Couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Look at Cash's situation, how long he's done, it's remarkable,
you know. I look at like THEO and Boston and
kind of how it ended there, and obviously then he
goes and they build in Chicago, and they went there too,
and kind of the you know, unbelievable parlay of the
Red Sox and Cubs and he'll be a Hall of
Famer as well. But you know, I think THEO said, hey,

(12:28):
it's kind of like ten years about time to move on.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
He's had to quote something along those lines.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
And so then I look at what Cash is done
going on. I think it's close to thirty years in
the same market and has won consistently, you know, one
World Series in different with different makeups of the club, right,
it's kind of the Core four, and then you fast
forward to nine and they went with you know, CC
and to Share and the homegrown players of Gardner and

(12:54):
and whatnot, and so they've reinvented themselves. It is challenging
when it's World Series or bus though, and that's the
kind of pressure that I think those markets bring.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Hey have they won twenty seven World Series? Is that right?
Or World Believe or something?

Speaker 3 (13:09):
I believe that's right, right.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
And it's crazy to think that they get so criticized
for not winning the next one when they're still franchises
out there who have never won a single World Series
like that. That's the level of pressure and scrutiny. Well,
thanks for the question. Stay with us through the break.
On the other side, we're going to have Jeff Passon
as a guest, and we also wanted to let the
listeners know next week we are off, we are going

(13:31):
to return on August nineteenth, so please come back to
us in August nineteenth, where we're going to start a
conversation about the NFL as we're going to have a
guest general manager from the NFL stay with us through
the break on Rosters to Rings. Welcome back to Rosters

(13:57):
to Rings since it is quite literally one of his
busiest times of the year. Jad and I are extremely
grateful to Jeff Passon for being our guest at Rosters
to Rings. Jeff grew up in the Cleveland, Ohio area.
He graduated from the vaunted Syracuse University Knew how School
of Communications. Jeff got a start in baseball covering the
Kansas City Royals for the Kansas City Star. Two years later,

(14:19):
Jeff moved to Yahoo Sports, where he spent thirteen years
before heading to ESPN in twenty nineteen, where he has
been ever since. Jeff has availed himself as one of
the most preeminent baseball journalists of this era. Jeff, Welcome
to Rosters to Rings.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
Thank you for having me that It's great to be
here and listen. If Ryan wasn't going to be here,
I suppose you could have scrounged up somebody worse than
John Daniels. But you know, we'll have to make too
appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
You know, this is a little bit of a role reversal.
Usually Jeff gets to pepper j D and I will
the pepper grinders in the other hands. For this interview,
we get to really start peppering you some stuff, Jeff.
One of our traditions on rosters to rings is to
ask every guest kind of what their origin story is,
how did you get into sports?

Speaker 4 (15:08):
In Why Baseball, I'll start at the beginning. I grew
up in the Cleveland Plain Dealer newsroom and in radio
booths at WWWE and wkn R and Cleveland. My father
started working at the Plaine Dealer in nineteen sixty three

(15:28):
and continued through his retirement forty one years later. And
so I sort of come by this genetically in both
the fact that I had the ability, thankfully to write
a little bit, and that I topped out at five
foot nine, and so as much as I loved sports

(15:49):
and loved playing sports, I knew my future was going
to be much likelier on the written side, and so
went to school at Syracuse, worked at the Daily Orange
there and got the best education possible, not in the classroom,
but in the field. My first job was in Fresno,
California at the Fresno b where Adrian Warzanowski and Andy

(16:12):
Katz and John Branch who I worked with and who's
want to pull itzerprize Like, It's a great sports section
with a lot of history and I don't know if
you guys have spent any time in Fresno, but weird
shit happens there, and where weird shit happens, it's great
for news. And so spent two years there. I got

(16:33):
extremely lucky to get my first baseball writing job. I
was twenty three years old at the time. I had
all of like five or six games experience at internships
covering baseball. But the editor there, Mike Fannin, took a
took a risk on me and he saw something and
I spent a couple of years at The Star, went

(16:55):
to Yahoo and ESPN has been you know, among all
of my really enjoyable stops, Like, there's no point in
my career where I look back and I'm like, definitely
suck now. I've been extraordinarily fortunate to work with really
good people at really good and supportive places, But nothing's
like ESPN, man. I mean, say what you will about

(17:20):
the current state of sports journalism, I will put what
we do in both breadth and depth up against anyone.
I still think when it comes to serving the sports fan,
nobody does a better job than we do.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
You mentioned your dad's background and then your transition from
more of the local writer the beat to these national
deal you know in the in the spent certainly from
what your dad dealt with, but do in your career,
the media landscape has changed so dramatically. Was that a
conscious decision on your part to kind of move away
from the more traditional newspaper beat or was it a

(18:02):
little bit of luck around the right people?

Speaker 3 (18:05):
How'd you describe that?

Speaker 4 (18:07):
It was complete luck. I thought I was going to
go to Yahoo. I was going to spend like two
years there, and then I was going to go back
to a newspaper and write a general sports column, because
that's you know, that's what it was like when we
were growing up. Guys, the people who were at the
apex of business were not the news breakers because newsbreakers

(18:32):
by and large didn't really exist. That it's a function
of what the Internet has given us and what the
marketplace has asked for. I thought I was going to
go back to Cleveland and write about the Cavs and
the Indians and the Browns for the rest of my life,
and I would have been perfectly happy doing so. But
I think the consequence of the Internet is the acknowledgment

(18:55):
and recognition by people that just because you're in a
club house or locker room does not make you smarter
necessarily about sports than other people. It might make you
a little bit more well informed, it might give you
a greater path to insight, but there are so many
good sports opinions outside the sphere of traditional media that

(19:17):
I think it brought down the value of the general
sports columnist and allowed for the rise of the so
called insider, whose job in some way mirrors what those
longtime newspaper columnists did. Like I remember growing up in
reading Terry Pluto, who was at the Acronbeacon Journal and

(19:40):
then later went to the Plane Dealer which is now
Cleveland dot com. And Terry would have these Sunday columns
that just had nugget after nugget after nugget that made
me feel smarter as a sports fan, and I use
that as my north star when I'm out reporting, Like
how am I going to take this baseball fan, whether
he or she follows a specific team or the sport

(20:04):
writ large, and make that person walk away from consuming
what I'm putting out there feeling like they have a
greater understanding of what's going on in the game. Like
that's the duty. That is everything to me. And whether
it's in the form of breaking news or a feature
story that you know, explains why a player is who

(20:26):
he is, or something is complicated as labor, I feel
like I have to be a polymath and I have
to know at least a little bit about a lot,
and hopefully a lot about a lot.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
You know, Jeff, you just hit on so many things.
One is that that's effectively the ethos of the show
is that we felt that when we were GMS, we
got to share about forty percent of what we knew
with the fans do to a lot of restrictions competitive
league rules and otherwise ownership mandates, And so we're trying
to put peel back the curtain here and share with
them as much as we possibly can. One thing be

(21:04):
just before we get off your background, I'd love to
hear you talk a little bit more for maybe people
who are aspiring to follow in your footsteps. The legacy
of the University of Syracuse is exceptional. I mean, I
just looked up some of the people who have impacted
sports and the names are just it's hall of famer
after hall of famer, not to mention almost every team's
radio en or TV broadcaster, but Bob Costas and Jason

(21:27):
Stark and Sean McDonough and Sweeney Murdy Murdy and Mike
Trico and yourself. I mean, it's just the list goes
on and on and on. Could you just tell the listeners, like,
what is the legacy of Syracuse? How did you choose
to go there? And what does that meant for your
career to be connected with such a vaunta group of people.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
It's a Syracuse because Northwestern and the University of North
Carolina rejected me, So I'm sorry, ilumni group. Scuse is
a great school and it's definitely not overpriced ninety thousand dollars.
Now here's what I do want to say that I
feel like going to a pedigree. Journalism school does give

(22:08):
you advantages like the network and just the opportunities with
the facilities and a newspaper like the Daily Orange that
gives a shit as much as it does. But a
lot of people cannot afford to go to schools like that.
And I want to tell you, like, journalism should not

(22:28):
be an old boys club. You should not need the
kind of degree that I was fortunate enough to have
in order to get into the industry, because to me,
it's more about the work. It's about the work ethic.
How much time are you willing to devote to this
thing that demands almost all of it? That's it's hard,

(22:51):
Like figuring out that balance in my life is extraordinarily hard.
You guys have gone through the same thing. It's what
the industry demands, and it's what excellence demands. But beyond
the amount of work that you do, it's the type
of work that you're aspiring to do. And it's been
really interesting to me to see as the insider as

(23:12):
a job that has taken on as much of an
impact as it has, to see some of the younger
people who are coming up and how so many of
their hours and how so much of their bandwidth, our
geared just toward that transactional news, and I feel like

(23:33):
we've lost the plot a little bit there. And maybe
this is just like you know, mid forties guy who's
been in the industry forever and you know, wants things
not necessarily be the way that they were in the past,
but feels like some of the some of the great
parts of journalism have been lost. Like I don't want
to sound like that guy, but I feel like in

(23:55):
order for real journalism to be done, not theography, not
just being a transaction monkey, nothing like that, but to
have like impactful stories that people can read, there needs
to be more of an emphasis on that. And that's
what I hope people understand that they can learn outside

(24:19):
of schools that are going to put you into enormous debt.
There are stories everywhere everywhere. You could drop me in
the smallest and most boring town in America and forty
eight hours later, I would come away with five stories
that you want to read. Because ultimately, the most important

(24:40):
thing that we can be is reporters that is curious.
I want to be curious about what is making whatever
I'm covering go, What are the mechanics behind it, Who
are the people behind it, How does it work, How
does that relate to what's going on in the surrounding areas,
whether that's other teams or in this hypothetical of the

(25:02):
small town in the country, And how does it relate
to that. There are always great stories to be told
wherever you are. It's just a matter of how curious
you can be and how committed you are to going
and finding them.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
You know, Jeff, one thing that I realized in my career.
A lot of people ask me, so, you know, what
should I do to get my first job? And I
think sometimes they get fixated on the title or the
job responsibility. What I always encourage them to do is
like understand who is going to be there to mentor you,
how much time they will genuinely invest in your growth
and development, because that's the key to success. We're never

(25:41):
tethered to that first job. We have that first job responsibility.
If we get too fixated there, I think you may
find yourself with a little bit of an artificially low ceiling.
You referenced it earlier, the people in Fresno, the people
at Syracuse. You know, I just count myself so blessed
in my first job in Colorado, I got to work
with I think eight guys wanted to become general managers,
another one who went on to become a manager. And

(26:03):
it's just like it's a very good fortune. But if
you're open minded to growing and developing with people, and
you align yourself with the right people, it can really
accelerate your career. So I guess the question I have
for you as you kind of now have shifted from
being a mentee to a mentor in an industry which,
at least outwardly facing, seems extremely competitive to get clicks

(26:24):
and to get views of your stories social media, what
have you What opportunities in your role now are there
to mentor people and do you really invest in that
or is it just too competitive to be spending too
much of your time in that arena?

Speaker 4 (26:38):
I try to, like it's important to me, you know,
I'll start with this. When I went to ESPN, ESPN
has a reputation as a place where there's infighting among reporters,
and dude, I get adjura, like I can't deal with that,
Like I am my Jewish grandmother's son or grandson rather

(27:02):
and if I'm not in a position where I'm feeling
good about where I am inter personally with people. If
I have conflict in my life, my work suffers for it.
And so going in there with the idea, I'm going
to get along with everyone and we're going to try
and set a different standard than other sports have seen.
That that was important to me and I. You know,

(27:25):
you have to ask Alvin Gonzalez and Jorge Castio and
others other younger reporters who I work with how I do.
But I feel like I try. When they succeed, I
feel like I've succeeded. And I don't know how long
I'm going to do this. It's not going to be
a long time because I have a life to live

(27:47):
and that life is going to include teaching like that
that's what I want to do. That's where I feel
like I have the ability to give back. I have
had a quarter century now of incredible opportunities to cover
amazing things. I have seen NBA finals, I have seen
college football playoff finals. I have seen PGA Tour majors.

(28:12):
I have seen Stanley Cup finals. I've covered twenty plus
World Series. I've done four Olympics. I've seen some shit.
I've been places it's been unbelievable, and in that I
feel like I've taken away quite a bit, but all
of it hasn't crystallized until really like the last five
years or so, when you know, our kids grow up

(28:35):
and you know, we've been in marriages for a while,
and we learn about ourselves. And one thing I've learned
about myself is I want with the journalism industry where
it is right now. It's been hammered, it's been it's
been attacked by people in positions of power. Credibility of

(28:59):
journalists is and it's an adar right now, and I
feel like if there's anything that I can do to
help teach the next generation of journalists that there is
a place for you to do your job, but also
to advocate for what's right, to hold people accountable, all

(29:20):
those old central tenets of journalism that I learned in
Common one oh seven at Syracuse, Like, I want to
embody those and I want to help people out. So
when students reach out to me, I will respond to them,
and sometimes to my detriment because I don't have enough
time in the day to do that. But if they

(29:41):
want to get on the phone for twenty minutes and
ask me questions. I try to make time because I
know when I was in that position, when I was younger,
those were the kinds of conversations that I wanted to have.
And I want to be a utility for others who
are really committed to this business and to doing it
right to learn. Maybe they take away one thing from

(30:03):
that conversation, but that one thing can be a central
tenet of what they do. I feel like I've been
a success in that regard. And you know, whether it's
people who I work with at ESPN or a younger
guy like Robert Murray who I really like and who
cares like I. You know, I, for the most part,

(30:25):
get along with my competitors, like I have a great
reverence for Ken Rosenthal. I think he's done this for
a long time, done at an extremely high level, done
it ethically, is a good husband, has been a great
father who has awesome kids like he to me is
the hallmark. So I will even like, I'll reach out

(30:45):
to him, I'll ask him questions and he's been extraordinarily
gracious with me, and it gives a model for me
to follow. Like, if Ken's doing that, I got to
do it too.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
Your reference to the change landscape that say, the journalism,
media landscape, and the various pressures political, technological, et cetera.
But one thing I'm confident you didn't twenty years ago,
didn't you know, take a class on its syracuse with
social media?

Speaker 1 (31:13):
How is that?

Speaker 2 (31:14):
How is that impacted sports media and journal specifically your job?

Speaker 4 (31:19):
I have a very it's the right word for it,
complicated relationship with social media. I think social media inherently
is just awful. I think that, and I think this
because I see how algorithms are designed to bring out

(31:43):
the worst in us, how they thrive on chaos, and
not just thrive on it, but implicitly encourage it by
doing so. And I'm terrified at the amount of information
that's out there that's just blatantly false and in people's
digital illiteracy, it is terrifying that being said, I would

(32:08):
not be where I am right now if not for
social media. And so I feel kind of like a hypocrite.
And it turns out I don't know how this happened.
I'm considered good at social media, I think probably because
it brings out aside of me that people might not
otherwise see. And you know, there's nothing in the description

(32:31):
of the job as a journalist that says Bill roast people.
And it took it took me a while to get
to the point where I was confident enough to do that.
But I just think that I feel like it's a
necessary evil. Right now, Pandora's box has been opened. We
are not going back to a pre social media time.

(32:53):
So what I do, accordingly is try to use it
as a tool to show people that, hey, there is
mainstream media out there that can do things accurately, that
can do things ethically, and that can do things with
entertainment as well. And it's a tough balance, you know,

(33:17):
outside of like trade deadline. If you'll notice I don't
tweet a whole lot. That is absolutely intentionally because I
feel like the less I tweet, the more impactful those
tweets are going to be. It is scarce to be
principal applied to social media, and I wish others, not

(33:39):
necessarily in my industry, but just generally speaking, this goes
for myself, but this goes for everyone. You're not that interesting.
I hate to say it, but what you have to
say in your opinion, they don't all need to be
out there and I try to say that to my
kids too, that sometimes, uh, most of the time, you

(34:02):
learn a lot more by listening than you do by speaking.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
You just follow up on that last week, like based
on your what you've seen out there on you know,
social media world and the good, the bad, the the
worse than bad, whatever, How is that have affected how
you know?

Speaker 3 (34:18):
You guys?

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Parents, are your boys? What access have you allowed them?

Speaker 4 (34:24):
Uh? They didn't get phones until they were in high school. Like,
we kept them away as long as possible. I think
I think my older one has tweeted once and that
was his commitments college.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
That's just the account we know about, don't you know.

Speaker 4 (34:45):
Don't put that in my head, sorry, Like I don't
need I don't need to know what kind of burners
he has or I'll say this if if that, if
that child had a burner account, it would probably be
like for politics or weather or something like that. I
don't I don't think it would be I don't think
it would be anything nefarious or nasty. My younger one

(35:09):
doesn't have any social media yet. He is going into
eighth grade this year, and we are keeping him away
as long as possible. But we've had conversations with them
about it. I think it's important to talk with your
kid about what they're trying to get out of social
media and what the aim is and what the more

(35:29):
than anything, what the what the downsides of it are.
I mean, I think we saw it with with Josh Hater,
we have seen it with others, Like digital footprints don't
go away. You know, the Internet archive exists, and it
will it will take a snapshot of your best moments

(35:52):
and your worst as well, and so it's a good
lesson I think to teach them as they go into
the world, like all of the all the things you
have to be mindful of and on the internet where
the way, like the way I look at social media
is I'm waiting into a place where there are no

(36:13):
standards of decorum. People can say to you what they
want to say to you without any consequences, and your
reaction to that, uh speaks to to who you are,
what your priorities are. And UH. Because I'm employed by ESPN,
you know, there's a specific standard to which we have

(36:34):
to hold ourselves. But beyond that, there's one to which
I try to hold myself in in engaging with people
and in the discourse that I choose to have.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Jeff, let's turn our attention a little bit to the
craziness which has been your last couple of weeks. Can
you take the listener inside what is a day in
the life of Jeff Passon leading up to the deadline?
And then on the deadline day? Like, how phrenetic is it?

Speaker 4 (36:58):
What?

Speaker 3 (36:58):
What?

Speaker 1 (36:58):
What constitutes a day for you? Over the last ten
leading up to the deadline.

Speaker 4 (37:04):
I'm going to give you the last thirty six or
so hours, and I'll try and do as concisive a
walkthrough as I can, because it will show you what
the not just what the work is, but like what
it's like the human being. And like preface this by saying,
I am not digging dishes, I am not working in minds.

(37:27):
I am essentially texting people for a living and getting
on the phone and talking with people and then going
on TV to talk about it and writing about it.
I have like the best job in the world, but everyone,
even people with the best jobs, it can be stressful sometimes.
And so day before wake up in the morning, I
think I went to bed at three thirty and I

(37:51):
was up at six thirty, and it had been that
way for probably the four days beforehand. It's just not
much this time of year, So you have to you
have to know that when you're working on that little
sleep like errors can happen, and you need to be
particularly mindful of everything that you're saying, doing and putting

(38:14):
out there in the world. And you know, I got
some tips that morning on the relief market, and I'm
calling around about that, trying to figure out, okay, is
Joan Durant going to go todays? David Bednar going to go?
I heard Camilo Devall's name. I had heard the night
before Mason Miller for the first time really in play

(38:36):
and buser only, and I had put together something sort
of previewing the last couple of days leading up to
the deadline, and I think that was like the first,
the first real mention the Padres are going to do
something big and Mason Miller actually might be out there
in play, And so felt good about that. Day goes
on and you know, I get the tip on uh

(39:01):
Cabrian Hayes going to the Reds. I had that news
for a while, but he had not been told yet.
And when a player has not been told and I
know that he has not been told. I will wait
on the news because I feel like these are human beings,

(39:21):
and you know, if I put it out there, chances
are key. Brian Hayes does not have my my Twitter
alerts on his phone, but that's someone he knows does.
And imagine hearing either via a an alert from me
or you know, a friend saying hey, did you just

(39:42):
get traded? Like that's a terrible way to learn that
your life is going to change. So as absolute best
I can, I try to respect that and hold on
to it until I've been told that they know, so
you know, get get a couple of breaks. That morning.
Austin Slater going to the Yankees was another feeling good

(40:04):
about myself. I'm out reporting like where's Deran going to go?
I'm told like he's going to move today. And you know,
the sense that I had gotten talking with sources that
Seattle was in the league for Joe on d Ron
and I made a critical air. I stopped thinking, this

(40:27):
is the trade deadline, where shit changes all the time,
and where all it takes for it to change is
the addition of one player to a deal, which is
what happened when the Phillies were you know, the Twins
were going around asking essentially for final offers, and Phillies
came back with one that beat what the Mariners had

(40:50):
and I had just been waiting, okay, that this is
going to get done, hopefully, somebody tells me and Ken
Rosenthal drops a breaking Joan durn Or. I think it
was Phillies on the verge of acquiring Joan Duran from
the Minnesota Twins, and I was meeting with one of

(41:11):
my bosses at the time. Imagine getting punched in the
when you're meeting with your boss. That is what that
felt like right there. It was embarrassing. I felt like
like I suck at my job. And even though, like
I know objectively just based on the history and the

(41:32):
number of stories I've gotten and things that I've done
right that I'm pretty good at it, like I appreciate
the work that I do. In that moment, it is
just an empty feeling. It is. It will suck all
the confidence that you might have had right out of you.
It will make you question yourself, question your process, question everything,

(41:56):
and considering there were like sixty trades, like when one
of them does that to you, that was a big one.
So that That's why I think it hurt more than others.
But that was really hard and it had me done.
I immediately went outside, sat in my car and just

(42:18):
like I didn't cry, but I wanted to like, what
does this portend for the next twenty four hours? Am
I really in as good of a position as I
need to be going into this time where there are
going to be so many trades? And in a way,
it refocused me. It made me think, okay, like you

(42:41):
need to get all of your ducks in a row.
As prepared as you thought you were, you weren't enough,
and so you need to double down even more. You
need to lean on sources. You need to find out
what's actually going on, like all that you have, all
the arrows you have in your quiver. You need to

(43:02):
ready for deployment. And you know, the last twenty four
hours it was good. Woke up the next morning, got
the Mason Miller trade. I don't even remember what happened
in the last two hours of the deadline, Like I
was just sitting there like over the baseball tonight's set, right,

(43:23):
you got Eduardo Perez buster only Kevin Connor's Tim Kirkchin
and I'm off to the side at the kid's table,
and it's just like me in a camera And when
I have something I like, I put my hand up
in the air and I wave, and you know, producer
gets in my ear and says, what do you got?

(43:43):
And I say this, and thirty seconds later, Kevin Connors
will very smoothly like transition the conversation that they're having
on set and throw it over to me. And at
the end, Like, the one thing that I was unhappy
about that day was that it was the fucking most
uncomfortable chair I've sat in in a long time. And remember,

(44:07):
like I had broken back a couple of years ago,
so I need to talk with the ESPN about getting
a more comfortable chair for that set. But otherwise, like
the work that day, I was really proud of what
we did. I thought our show was excellent. I thought
it was informative and had great context. And you know,
I don't ever judge myself based on the percentage of

(44:28):
scoops I get or stuff like that, because we're all like, so,
you know, if I don't have it and Ken does,
I'll have it less than a minute later, and vice versa.
But I felt like I was at a point where
I wasn't surprised really by anything that was going on

(44:49):
except the Griffin Jack's trade. And you know, being in
that place where nothing is surprising you the way that
Deram did twenty four hours earlier. That's all I can
ever really ask.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
You're going to have a really comfortable chair until Ken
got the Duran trade and then they.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
Switched it out.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Those your bosses a way of reminders keep you uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 (45:13):
Exactly, you know what, Like sometimes this comfort brings out
the best of us. I firmly believe that.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
And I look at you know, I look at some
organizations and what they did at the trade deadline, and
they were putting uncomfortable positions and it's sweare to action, Jeff.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
One thing I just wanted to have you shared with
the listeners, and this is actually a question from one
of our listeners, who interestingly is named twins Nowherry, But
he said he wanted to know, like, how do you
actually cultivate sources and how do you go about like
testing whether or not they're worthwhile of you staying in
touch with him and if you were to rank them

(45:52):
like agents, players, coaches, executives, like have you found some
more reliable than others. And then the last little twist
on this was like, how do you feel when you
kind of get the sense that, whether it's an agent
or executive, was kind of using you just to promote
their player, But there's not a whole lot of truth
to the rumor they're trying to promote. So like, I
just if you could take us through like how do

(46:13):
you cultivate sources? How long is that process before you
can truly trust trust them? And then like how many
of those contact points are you making per hour during
that time frame leading up to actually then feeling comfortable
reporting something as being truthful.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
I think that the point at which I'm willing to
report all depends on who I'm getting the information from.
How long have I known this person? Is there any
reason why the person would give me this information? And
part of what helps me FAD is that I've kind
of cut out all of the incremental things that lead

(46:51):
to the eventual transaction. Other reporters will say, these people
are talking with this team is talking with this other
team about this guy, and I just I don't know
the extent of conversations talks can be, Hey, what do

(47:11):
you think of this guy or talks can be Hey,
here's who we would give up for this guy, it's
who you ask for. Let's get to medicals and see
how this goes like. And there's such a giant number
of different things in between those two ends of the
continuum that to me, what matters is not who's talking

(47:33):
with whom. What matters is when a deal gets done
and what does that mean for everybody involved. And so
I've given myself a little bit of leeway in that
regard not to get used. It happens still sometimes, and
I've done this long enough where I can usually sniff

(47:54):
it out. But the people, the people who I have
good relationships with, they kind of know not to do
that because they know that number one, I will call
them out on bullshit, and number two that when you
do that, your credibility with me just sinks immediately. Like

(48:15):
I want to have an honest enough relationship with the
people that I deal with where they can tell me
what they need, what they are feeling, where they are
at the moment, how they're looking at a particular transaction
they might be doing, whether this could be a good thing,
whether this could be a bad thing. I can play
Devil's advocate for them, like I like the thought process

(48:39):
of it. And I'm not going to be in a
front office like that. That's not my goal. I'm not
smart enough to be in the mix there. But I
do like play acting at sometimes, and in doing so,
what it allows me to do with my writing later
on is to potentially offer all the perspectives on this,

(49:01):
both the good and the bad, and and why one
makes more sense than the other. It allows me insight
into the decision making of people in front offices that
it is so hard to know without understanding what the
greater picture is. I think, how how do I get sources?

(49:23):
I don't discount that the level at which my voice
is respected and considered among fans absolutely plays into that
that that i'd be. I'd be naive to suggest otherwise.
But I didn't just start, you know, getting sources when

(49:44):
I got to ESPN, and and I think it's because
I'm honest and because I'm kind of sincere, and I
can I can be, you know, I think I can
be different things for different people, and it's it's not

(50:06):
it's not of a fake. But what I've tried to
do is when I'm meeting someone I want to understand
where they are in their lives. Where are you professionally,
where are you personally? And where are the experiences that
I've had? How can I relate to you and how
can I understand what's important to you and get to

(50:29):
know you? And I've you know, I've made a lot
of great relationships over the course of this job. And
I think because I'm honest with people about my life
and the things that I'm going through, good and bad,
they understand that I work really hard and I care
and they see those similarities between us and it's almost like, hey,

(50:54):
because you do this the way that you do and
I respect you for that, I'm going to try and
help you out. Like that's that That to me is
is ultimately where most of it comes from. And uh,
it's it's the top part of this job, man, because
there are a lot of people in the industry and

(51:14):
in giving people time that they feel like is sufficient
for them. They're only twenty four hours in a day,
you guys, know what bandwidth strain looks like?

Speaker 2 (51:24):
A quick follow up there, I know, after the deadline,
you know, or after deals are made in the winter.
A lot of times executives will you know, debrief with
their with their counterparts?

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Right a touch base?

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Were you in on so and so or how was
dealing with you know, executive X, Y, Z and whatever team?

Speaker 3 (51:40):
And uh?

Speaker 2 (51:41):
And certainly if you know if a GM is dishonest
or you know that gets around right or games that
are playing, do you do the same with your peers
or your teammates And as far as you know, hey,
so and so source tried to mislead me or lie,
is there any debriefing on your end?

Speaker 4 (52:02):
I do that with my with my teammates. Yeah, like
you know, Jesse Rodgers helping of Zales rage Casto, Kayler
McDaniel Like, well, we'll go over stuff like that and
try to figure out, Okay, where did information come from
and where are we weak? How do we make sure
this doesn't happen next time? Like I got a lot

(52:23):
of spreadsheets and maybe a few too many, and and
it helps me, like going into deadline season, organize information
and at a time where my head is spinning, like okay,
this is an easy way to see what you've got
ahead of you. But yeah, like going into going into
the winter, we will we will try and break things

(52:46):
up as much as we can, and we know who
our best competition in those situations is going to be.

Speaker 6 (52:53):
Like we It's not always like a perfect pattern, like
like Ken Ken has sources everywhere, like I never know
where his information is coming from, and I wouldn't.

Speaker 4 (53:04):
Begin to speculate. But there are others that you have
a decent sense their patterns throughout the years that you
see and you just have to try and fight against.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
Those shifting gears. Prominently, a lot is made in our
sport about the prospect of a work stoppage after twenty
twenty six. Also, I think we could all debate that
the relations between the union and the Commissioner's office is
not exceptional at this state. From a media relations standpoint,

(53:37):
what council would you offer Tony Clark, the head of
the union and Rob Manford, the Commissioner ahead of the
twenty twenty six negotiations that could possibly help make this
a little bit more smooth as we all aspire to
not see a work stoppage in Major League Baseball.

Speaker 4 (53:53):
Oh man, I don't know if I am wise enough
to offer anything that will bridge the gap between the sides,
because to me that like, none of this can be
done outside of economics. That's what it's going to come
down to. Like, they don't speak the same language when

(54:15):
it comes to the game growing, they don't think the
same way when it comes to the future. It has
and I think this is an unfortunate consequence of not
not the listening game hasn't been missed in more than
a quarter century. And so I think if there is
a central idea, a central theme for everyone to keep

(54:39):
in mind, it's don't ruin a good thing, because baseball
is a good thing right now. And I just like
I hope they all understand and remember history. After nineteen
ninety four, it was really bad and it didn't come

(55:00):
back fully until Mark maguire and Sammy Sosa and that
opened you know, a whole new issue with performance enhancing
drugs going forward. And so I think baseball is in
a great place right now. There there are unquestionably issues

(55:20):
when it comes to financial disparity in the game. I
do not know that those issues would be solved necessarily
by a salary cap though, And to me, if there's
if there's advice for MLB, it's be open and creative,
because I feel like those two words salary cap are

(55:45):
the two words that are going to get baseball into
a really, really dark place, and for the Union it
would be compromise and be willing to see where MLB
is at right now. I when acknowledge, like acknowledge that
when you have a four hundred and thirty million dollar
payroll in an eighty million dollar payroll, that that is

(56:09):
not something long term that's going to be particularly sustainable
for the fans of the sport more than anything. And
I don't know, what do you guys hear my dogs barka, Yeah,
this is what happens.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
They're trying to find JD and his bunker. They're concerned
about being.

Speaker 4 (56:30):
Listen. They get pissed off at labor discord too, Like
they understand, they understand that after the twenty twenty six season,
frankly throughout the twenty twenty six season, this is going
to be like the topic of conversation, are we all
not just looking at December first, twenty twenty six is

(56:50):
the day that there's going to be a lockout? Like
do you guys have hope? I you know, you don't
have to answer, but to me, that feels like an
inevitability at this point. And if they can figure things
out beforehand. I truly urge them to because I think,
you know, it's one thing to have an offseason lockout,

(57:11):
but the prospect of games being missed just for the
whole sport is problematic, especially going into twenty twenty eight
when MLB is going to be negotiating a new television
contract that the Commissioner's office and I think rightly sees
as paving the way for an entire new generation of

(57:33):
fans to come in, whether it's streaming, whether it's national rights,
whatever it is, Like the way we consume baseball, guys
is going to be different in a couple of years
than it ever has been before.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
It feels like we've set ourselves out of the industry,
set themselves up for that with some of the rule
changes we've already seen, right, and the speed of game,
and then the number of other things have been more
open to embracing kind of the young fan and making
the game a little more media friendly in that regard.

(58:05):
But I think to your point, like history repeats itself
and you go by your lords of the realm or the.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
Game, I mean, it's the issues.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
The details have changed, but the issues we're talking about
today are the same issues that they were talking about
in the sixties and seventies, you know, when the union
you know, got going, and so hopefully we can you know,
avoid that. I guess, just to follow up on your
last answer, like, do you think, generally speaking, do you
think it's better like status quo is generally pretty good?

(58:34):
Do you think we should you know, embrace that, or
do you think meaningful change is needed?

Speaker 4 (58:40):
I need to see what the proposals are like before
answering that. I hope that's not a cop out question,
but are a cop out answer rather, But I need
to see how creative the sides are willing to get
before understanding what the right thing is. I don't think
a salary cap is right. I don't think the current
system that we have now is right. I think there's

(59:01):
better in every direction. I think the last Bass agreement, frankly,
did take us more toward that. I think the draft
lottery was a good thing. I think the penalty for
losing with your draft pick was a good thing. But
there are more steps that can be taken to encourage
those low spending teams to spend higher while trying to

(59:24):
rein in some of the excessive spending we see at
the top.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
And JD one point to build off of what you
said relative to history repeating with itself. It seems like, unfortunately,
one of the common themes is just the discord between
the players and the commissioner's office, the union in the
commissioner's office, and I just wish if there was anything
I could wish for its You see the NBA there
there's more cohesion, it seems, between the players and administration.

(59:52):
The NFL is getting there as well, and we're just
seeing those leagues vault forward. If we could find some
common ground, we're both sides aren't just assuming the worst
of each other. Hopefully that could pave the way for
a real positive growth, because I do think the sport
is has turned a corner, is in a better place.
It is more appealing to fans. But that could all

(01:00:13):
end if we have a protracting work stoppage and we
take the game away from the fans. I think that'd
be very problematic.

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
That it would be really nice to have that, but
we have to acknowledge history. There years and years of
built up animus there toward Rob Manford from the players
that is not going to go away. And Rob Manford
has tried to work toward that. But you know, with
Bryce Arper situation a perfect example, when you walk into
a clubhouse and you don't have to say the word

(01:00:44):
salary cap, you can be walking right around. Players aren't dumb.
They hear it, they see it, and they will not
oblige bullshit like that's just not in their nature. They
are competitors and they are fighters, and they have been
trained to believe that Rob Manfred is the personification of
the enemy side. And that's how we are going to

(01:01:07):
walk into this labor situation with two sides that seeing
one another as the enemies.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Good times, Yeah, yeah, good times.

Speaker 4 (01:01:16):
It's going to be an interesting story if nothing else.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
Yeah. Somehow we made it through a full show with
Jeff passed, and we didn't ask him a single question
about his assessment of the trade deadline. But I think
that's just we'll leave that to all your other shows. Jeff,
thank you so much for being on with us today.
We know this is such an exceptionally busy time for
you making time for us or your schedule. We really
appreciate it. And you know, Jeff, you said something earlier

(01:01:40):
which really struck a chord. With me that I want
to just highlight again your notion of the Key Brian
Hayes example, and how you tend not to report things
and til players know. I would just say from my experience,
that speaks to an integrity that is not universal across
all members of the media. There's a humanitarian side of
you that you just really revealed. It pains me to

(01:02:01):
hear that. Then on the backside of it, you felt
the pain associated with the John Durant reporting Because for
people like yourself who are doing it the right way,
I would hope you wouldn't have those negative feelings on
the other side, because what you did for Key Brian
Hayes and his family is significant. That's not a subtle thing.
That's a significant thing. I think working your job with

(01:02:23):
a high level of competition but also with empathy is
what sets you apart. You reference Ken Rosenthal and a
number of others, but you really are ushering in a
new era of journalism in baseball. Your tribute to the fans.
We appreciate you. Thank you for coming on, and we'd
love to continue the conversation at some point down the road,
but thank you again. Stay with us through the break

(01:02:46):
on the other side, Jad and I will talk about
how the media impacted our decision making, how we managed
the room, how we managed morale, and how we managed
information through the trade cycles. Welcome back, and what an

(01:03:09):
enlightening conversation with Jeff Passen.

Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
Jad.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
It reminded me he was telling the Key Brian Hayes
story in which he said that he knew that trade
was going down, but he also knew Key Brian Hayes
had yet to be notified by the Pittsburgh Pirates, so
he sat on that because his humanitarian side superseded his
desire to break that news. It reminded me of, you know,
a little bit of an uncomfortable situation we had when

(01:03:34):
we ultimately traded Ian Kinser to the Detroit Tigers as
part of a deal for Prince Fielder. You want to
fill the listeners in a little bit on that You
and I could could kind of like come together on
this conversation because I think it really flies in the
face of what happened in the Key Brian Hayes story.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Yeah, so we're talking about November of twenty thirteen. We
had gotten the general parameters. It was basically a one
for one deal with Ian and Prince Dave Dombrowski was
in Detroit at the time and we were negotiating with him.
They had wanted to move Miguel Carberra to first base.

(01:04:12):
We had Jerks and Profar. He ended up getting hurt,
but we had Jerks and Profar that we felt could
slide in into Ian's spot, and it was kind of
a you know, it fit for both sides at least,
you know, as we both saw it. The biggest the
hurdle at that point was the money involved in Detroit.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
We had negotiate with Detroit and they.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Ended up sending us some cash to cover part of
the difference in the two contracts. And if I recall
that the final agreement was reached as I was on
the way to the airport going away for the weekend,
and so we reached the agreement. I think you and
I connected and you were kind of taking it from there.

(01:04:53):
And one of the and I think the ultimate reason
that I got out was that Prince had a no trade.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
Clause and.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
So Detroit had to go to Prince and go to
his representative and get him to sign off and agree
to the.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
Deal, which he ultimately did.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
And I remember talking to to Dave Dombrowski and just that, Hey, everything,
I'm gonna be in the air for the next like
two or three hours. Can you do what you can
please to you know, keep it tightly. And I don't
think it got out from Detroit. I think it was more,
you know, once you have to approach the player and
there's paperwork, and the PA gets involved in the league
gets and you know, and while we're in the air,

(01:05:29):
remember John Hayman broke the story. Uh, you know, I'm
texting with you, you know, on Wi Fi and the
plane and Ian and his family were in on vacation
and I think they're in Hawaii if I recall. And uh,
and he was with some teammates and friends. So it
like they found out about it via the Internet, which

(01:05:50):
he never should have, you know, no player should, but
certainly not somebody like Ian that was such a big
part of our clubs and a homegrown player that you
and I had personal relationships with as well. And and
it was embarrassing. It was a bad look. Ian was
rightfully upset, you know. I think you tried to do
as much damage control with Jay Franklin was the agent
with Ian on the side, but they were pissed, and

(01:06:12):
they had every right to be. And since that, after
that point, I became much more sensitive about you know,
I wouldn't I wouldn't have taken that chance and got
on that plane again without having things a little more
buttoned up.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
Well, you know, I think, as we heard from Jeff
how he's working so hard to cultivate sources. I agree
with you. I don't think that came from Detroit. But
once you have the net is spread out in terms
of who knows that type of information, the risk just
becomes so prominentent My recollection of that was you were airborne.
I think you and Robin were taking one of your

(01:06:47):
first vacations in forever, maybe going to wine country or something.
And I was actually teaching a class at SMU Law
School where I was a guest lecturer, and I let
off the conversation by saying, Hey, I want to make
this interactive. If anyone has any questions along the way,
just feel free to raise their hand. About eleven minutes
into the class, someone raised their hand and said, did
you just trade Kindler to the Tigers for Prince Fielder?

(01:07:09):
And I said, you're going to need to give me
a minute. And I stepped out in the hall and
we made a few calls, and I think what we
certainly had underestimated there was typically when no trade has
to be waved, especially when Scott Boris, who is a
preeminent agent, is involved, there's a lot of back and forth,
and sometimes there's a negotiation, and sometimes there's a quid

(01:07:30):
pro quo. For giving up that right, they get some
additional rights, And so we figured there would be at
least some back and forth in that. Somehow Dave Dombrowski
called him and he signed off right away, and that
all of a sudden fast tracked everything. But also then
the news got out. So I appreciate Jeff's perspective on this.
I wish all the members of the media had that perspective.

(01:07:50):
They don't because they're in competition, and so I think
one thing that social media has done to our game
is these guys get rewarded for more clicks and more
views and that sort of thing, so they want to
break the information. I don't think they are trying to
recavoc on people's lives, but they're disinclined to ask that
extra questionable does everyone involve No, because they don't want

(01:08:12):
to get beat and I think that's really difficult. And
you know, in that situation, you know, as you mentioned,
it really hurt our relationship with Ian, who was such
a valued member of the Texas Rangers. I'm happy to
say I think it restored over the years, but it
took years to recover from that. And I think we
learned a lot through that moment. And you use the word,
I think we were both embarrassed by that taking place

(01:08:34):
like that, and it certainly changed how we did business
in the future and towards those ends. JD. You know,
ask you the question. You know, as guys like Jeff
Passen and John Hayman and Ken Rosenthal and John Paul
Morosi are trying to get sources and they're trying to
fight for this information. You're running a lot of these
trade rooms, how did you manage the notion that there

(01:08:55):
were people in the room who probably were getting hit
for information? And then you know, eventually, you know, like,
how did it impact your ultimate decision making when you
know that that unfortunate situation where else and you read
on trade rumors, Jeff said he doesn't necessarily report when
people are quote unquote talking, but talking oftentimes, you know,
you know, reveals your hand. We see a lot of

(01:09:17):
those rumors being posted. You get the post of the
Rangers are talking to another team about a player, and
you know in your heart of hearts that information could
have only come from their room or our room. How
does that impact how you proceed relative to you know,
wanting to share information with people in the room, but
also not wanting to get burnt.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Yeah, it's a can be a fine line to walk.
I think early in our time together, you know, it
was a smaller room and also a little bit probably
a little more paranoia about like where's the stuff coming from?

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
Where's it? You know, you don't want anything to get out.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
I think as we move along, you know, some of
it's having an experience like we did with with Ian's situation,
and some of it's just understanding the media landscape has
just changed so dramatically and that you know that social
media is what it is and it takes you know,
no time for something to get out right. I think

(01:10:19):
once we kind of accepted that, it was kind of
made two changes. One was that I would the other way,
and I was I wanted to create a more open environment.
I took the mindset. You know, I'd rather get burned
one time by maybe trusting the wrong person than to
have the whole group think I don't trust them. I
just don't think that's good for the culture of the organization.
So I really, from the front office standpoint of Scouts

(01:10:41):
tried to be as open vest as possible. Certain things
you got to be you know, sensitive to, but and
just tell the tell the people in the room, Hey,
this is how we're going to approach it. We're not
hiding anything from you guys. You know you full access,
full you know, curtain pull back. But here's what we expected.
You know, if you get a you might get approached

(01:11:01):
by media. If you do, you know, make somebody else
aware of it. Just it's okay, we under like we don't.
You're not pariah for talking to somebody in the media
like that. That is part of the nature of our jobs.
But like, let's be open about that too. And then I
think the other one that adjustment that we tried to
make was to keep if you especially with big leaders,

(01:11:22):
if you're going to trade, you know, if you're considering
trading major league players, give them heads up, right, whether
it's the agent or the player and circumstances dictate how
specific you're going to be. But you know, twenty seventeen,
we were very open with you, Darvish and kind of
the clubs that were involved and what might happen. And
you know, there's some risk I guess that you know,

(01:11:43):
you could a deal could break down because the player
could or the agent could assert some influence and direct
it a little bit. But we were comfortable with that
trade off. Joey Gallo in twenty twenty one, you tried
to keep Joey fully apprised of.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
What was going on, and again just to just to
a way, that's that circumstance.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
You don't really have the ability here, in my opinion,
you know, to give minor league players and prospects had
that same heads up, just because things are so fluid
and things can change so quickly there that it's probably
best not to, at least in my opinion. But those
were the changes we tried to make. Was go the
other way, be more open, more and more upfront with everybody,

(01:12:23):
create an environment of trust and versus you know, paranoia,
and then just try.

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
To keep the big league players as looped in as possible.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
You know, I think what you're talking about there, you know,
there's it's there's so two sides to all these coins, right,
so like you want to have your your trusted people
not read on trade rumors that you just made a deal.
It's there's nothing more disenfranchising, I think to the group,
there's nothing. In contrast, there's nothing more motivating to the
morale of the group. By keeping people in the loop

(01:12:55):
and communicating with them and demonstrating consistently that you trust them,
the risk you run is you could get burnt. But
I always view that as it's not you didn't burn me.
You're like you're burning yourself by like revealing some of
those things. And I'm going to always invest in the
culture and the morale of our people. I'm always going
to err on the side of trusting the people around me.
One of the biggest challenges, and you just shed light

(01:13:16):
on it, was when we started, there were ten to
fifteen people to keep in the loop. Nelson, there's fifty,
and you know that becomes challenging because now you've got
to trust, you know, your kind of lieutenants to share
that information out to other people so that we can
touch and feel as many people as possible. I think
the worst case scenario is to have your employees feel

(01:13:36):
like they're just no different than anyone else out there
who read the rumors on trade rumors, that you want
them to be apprized of what's going on. I think
with regards to the players, you know, that is an
exceptionally noble pursuit. I have always found kind of when
you're committed to knowing you are trading the player, it's
best to keep them in the loop. That the challenge

(01:13:58):
comes when you may trade the player, but you also
may not, And when do you tell them in that scenario,
because to tell them too much a forehand, hey we're
strongly considering trading you. It does, it does protect them,
It is empathetic, but then there's a strong chance you
don't trade them. And Nelson, you have to manage their
expectations as are kind of almost re onboarded knowing that

(01:14:19):
they were in a lot of trade discussions. We were
prepared to trade and we just didn't arrive at the
right deal. Do you feel like that was a tough
line to straddle or you always consistent on, Hey, let's
just error on the side of telling the player and
then we'll deal with the repercussions later.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Very tough line, and not just the risk that you
touched on, but I think there's a you know, a
performance risk leading up to the potential trade. Right were
a few if a player. What we tried to do
is almost ask the player like do you want to
do you want to be kept abreast or maybe talk
to the agent. You know, how much information here is healthy?
And you have to know, you know your your coworkers

(01:14:57):
around these guys a lot. I have to know, you know,
kind of them. Maybe ask the manager, Hey, you know,
how is so and so handle this better? To you know,
some guys don't want to know anything at all, but
because I think they know themselves and they know that.
You know, I've got ten days before the trade deadline,
and I may you know, I'm an everyday player. I'm
a reliever, I'm a starter, and I've got to prepare

(01:15:17):
to go out and do my job. And you can
imagine it affects different people differently. Some guys brush it
off and go out there and perform with with no issues,
and others, you know, struggle with that. And because they
have they're married, they have young kids. How's it going
to their kids are reading about it online and how's
it going to So it's I think you have to
kind of a little bit of communicate what do you

(01:15:38):
want to know and also try to anticipate how it's
going to affect that individual.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
Yeah, great stuff. So once again we'll be off next week,
but please join us again on August nineteenth on Rosters
to Rings. I just want to say big thank you
to John Daniels for co hosting with me for the
last three weeks. It's been exceptional reconnect with you, and
I also hope we do this again soon.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
Thanks for having me on man genuinely enjoyed it, talking
with Michael, with Rick and now Jeff. It's been fun
and I am a loyal listener as well. So good
luck with the rest of the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Loving it Far too Kind, Far too kind. Come back
on August nineteenth at Roster's to Rings. Please join me
host bad Levine, Ryan McDonough and other general managers every
week for Rosters to Rings on Apple, Spotify, or wherever

(01:16:36):
you get your podcasts.