Yamamoto Haunts the Jays and What Ja Hell in Memphis?

Thad and Ryan react to the instant-classic World Series and why this one will stick with fans for years. They break down Yamamoto’s brilliance, Dave Roberts’ best decisions, and the uphill road for the Blue Jays to get back. Then, the guys turn to the NBA, tackling Ja Morant’s suspension, trade value, and the GM calculus of “talent vs. headache.” Plus, this week’s listener questions!

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome back to Rosters to Rings everyone. I am Ryan McDonald,
joined as always by Thad Levine. That we have a
pack show today. The NFL trade deadline is taking place.
We'll have more on that on next week's episode. We
can look back and analyze all the deals that went
down and those that didn't. We're a couple weeks now
into the NBA season. We have some early impressions through

(00:26):
a few weeks of NBA basketball. We'll get into that
on this show. And we also have listener questions and
for the first time, our producer why it will come
in ask some of the listener questions at our listeners
who have been great submitting. We'll get into all of
that and more Thad. But where I want to start
the show today. I think it's pretty obvious because it
dominated sports over the past couple weeks that the Major

(00:46):
League Baseball playoffs, specifically the World Series. And I want
to start with an admission Thad, that I was wrong.
You were wrong. You had the Dodgers winning the World
Series in five games. I had the Dodgers winning the
World Series the six game. So we both had the
right team, Thad. But I want to give a lot
of credit to the Toronto Blue Jays. They played what
I thought was a tremendous series, one of the best

(01:08):
world series of my lifetime, Thad, And that's where I
want to start this show, just with your general impressions
of the Dodgers winning the third World Championship in six years,
even though you.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Were slightly more right than I am. I think the
key takeaway is we were both wrong in our prognostication,
so Ryan, I thought it was exceptionally entertaining. I think
this was one of the best World series I've seen
in the last twenty years. The stars shined during this
World series. It was excellent for the game. It was
tremendous theater. Hopefully fans were watching this all over the place.

(01:39):
But a few highlights for me were that in an
era where executives are building out rosters that optimize for
offense at every single position, there was exceptional defense in
these games, an exceptional defense from some of the most
offensive players in the game. Vladimir Guerrero, for instance, a
dynamo at first base during this series. Tommy Edmond made

(02:00):
some exceptional plays at second base. Kk Arnandez had some
adventures in left field, but also had some heart stopping
plays out there, and I'm sure we're going to talk
about the catch that Andy pah has made in center
field that ultimately extended the chance for the Dodgers to win.
But just a few things to consider. I think the
Blue Jays may have it may look back at this

(02:20):
with a little bit of a haunt factor. They outscored
the Dodgers thirty four to twenty six, which over the
course of a regular season that should have amounted to
them winning four and a half games in a seven
game series, which would have been enough to secure the
World Championship. They had fewer strikeouts as hitters, they had
a better batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, and
the Dodgers the vaunted Dodgers offense, but the Dodgers had

(02:42):
more home runs. They out homered eleven to eight, and remarkably,
in the postseasons since twenty one, eighty three percent of
the time when you out homer your opponent, you win
baseball games. And that's exactly what the Dodgers did, which
was just incredible. You know a few other things that
the the Blue Jays did which made it feel like
everything was falling their way. Ernie Clement, a exceptional utility

(03:05):
player for them, set a major league record for thirty
hits in the postseason. Vladdy Guerrero was right behind him
with twenty nine. Those both would have set records for
hits in the postseason. Addison Barger hit four to eighty
in the postseason, which is just a remarkable figure, especially
for a guy who didn't spend the whole year in
the big leagues. He started the year at Triple A
from them. Treya Savage started the year at single A

(03:27):
for them, and this postseason was a coming out party
for them, and Toronto fans has to be ecstatic about
the notion of him being at the top of their rotation.
The Blue Jays, though devastating le Ryan, had a ninety
one percent chance to win the World Series and that
top of the ninth inning with one out, fortunes did
not shine on them, and so that was really tough.

(03:47):
I don't know, Ryan, what were some of your initial
takes watching the World Series.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
I think the biggest takeaway for me, Thad was it
seemed like the Blue Jays had the World Series won
about three or four different times. The play at Home
played Smith's towed down or not was kind of Falaffa's
lead big enough. They'll talk about that in Toronto, unfortunately forever.
And then even after that, Fad the flyball to the
warning track and left center the infield was playing in.

(04:13):
I'm not a Major League Baseball outfielding expert, but it
seemed like Key k Hernandez took a pretty poor angle
on that ball. And as someone who played baseball through
high school, when I see an outfielder with his back
turned sprinting, I'm saying, well, this is desperation, and the
way the camera was set up, it was focused on him.
Piz was nowhere in the picture in center field, so
I said, the game's over, and unfortunately it seemed like

(04:35):
the Blue Jays fans in Toronto thought it was over
as well. And then Paz is one of the great
catches of all time. The collision and left center field,
and that was so riveting that I think the rate
ratings reflect this. Close to thirty million people watched Game
seven of the World Series live. You didn't know what
was going to happen, So that was one takeaway Thad.
And then for me, it sounds simplistic in a sport

(04:57):
with twenty six man rosters fifty two in the World Series.
But there's always a difference maker, and to me, the
difference maker in this series was obvious in Yamamoto. He
was historically great. I'd say, even beyond baseball. That one
of the best sporting performances of my lifetime. And I'll
ask you watched a lot more baseball than I have.
But is there any comp to that? Is there anything

(05:18):
like that? When he pitched in Game six, threw that
many pitches, I said, there's no way he's going to
come back in Game seven. Well, sure enough, here he comes.
And that he was reportedly so tired after the game
that he could barely lift the championship trophy in a
series which in which you need four wins, he got
three of them. Sad and to me, you can't overstate
his value and importance to the Dodgers winning yet another

(05:40):
World Series. Oh, it's incredible.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
And you heard through his interpreter he said when he
went to warm up, he wasn't sure if he's going
to be able to throw one pitch, let alone coming
and throw three innings. I mean, for the listeners, he
pitched ninety six pitches in Game six with zero days off.
He goes out and throws not one batter, but he
throws three innings to win that game. And as you
referenced Ryan, he wins three of the four games in

(06:03):
the World Series. The closest performance I can remember was
in twenty fourteen when Madison Bumgarner basically put the San
Francisco Giants on his back, beating the Kansas City Royals
in what amounted to a dynasty run for the San
Francisco Giants. He ends up winning Game one, he wins
Game five, and then he comes back in Game seven.
Now he had two days off. He came back in

(06:23):
Game seven, gets to save He throws five innings in
that game. In that series, he throws twenty one innings
and gives up one earned run over those games. And
it's just incredible when these starting pitchers can take over
a series. But I'm just curious, like, how many owners
are going to be pushing general managers this offseason when
we say, hey, these guys need five and six days
off between outings. Well, Yamamoto came out there, It didn't

(06:46):
back to back days heroically, and it was just one
of the most spellbinding performances I've ever seen. In professional sports.
I agree with the entirely.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
Ryan.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
It was a game changer. Without him, they do not
win that World Series, and they don't come close.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
I agree with that, and the way he did it,
the variety of pitches he threw, some memorable moment moments
him tipping his captive Lad Guerrero Junior as a sign
of respect in extra innings Game seven of the World Series.
Then you know they get the broken bat on that
game winning double play to Mookie Betts. Moments will live
forever in Dodgers' history. That the Blue Jays fans, I

(07:21):
think wish they already forgot him, even though the games
were just a few days ago at this point. That's
how riveting and compelling the series was. Now, let's talk
about the guys in the dugout, because the players on
the field get a lot of the attention. But when
a series is this close, and you pointed out all
the advantages that the Toronto Blue Jays had in terms
of the numbers, if you looked at it objectively without

(07:41):
knowing the results, and said who won this series? Toronto?
You know, on paper would have won the series, but
they didn't. That it was the La Dodgers winning yet
another championship. So looking at the guys in the dugout,
John Schneider for Toronto and especially Dave Roberts on the
Dodgers side, that to me as a fan, it seemed
like Roberts pulled all the right strand.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
So you know, a little background on Dave Roberts's I
think he's one of the most popular managers in the game.
You're talking about two managers, and John Schneider and Dave Roberts,
who players love. These are player managers and for two reasons.
One there exceptional communicators, are great motivators, but they also
put their players in positions to succeed, and that was
on full display. I think in this World Series. Dave

(08:22):
Roberts magically inserts Miguel Rojas in the starting lineup for
Games six and seven. He plays a huge role in
those games that everyone will remember the home run in
the ninth inning, but I harken back to Game six.
He was the receiver on key Ky Hernandez's throw from
leftfield to double off Addison Barger at second base. He

(08:43):
plays makes an exceptional scoop play at second base, a
really awkward play. He makes it look athletic. I think
inserting Miguel Rojas, who really hadn't been a factor for
that team for the last three to four weeks of
the season, was an amazing play by Dave Roberts. Furthermore,
I've almost never seen it where a manager makes an
in in inning defensive switch, and he did that. He

(09:06):
traded out his centerfielder Tommy Edmund for Pahes in centerfield,
and then Payes makes that exceptional catch that you referenced
a little bit earlier. Normally, in those circumstances, it's a
do or die play. The bases are loaded. They have
to be able to make the play at the plate
in the first place, So it wouldn't be uncommon to
bring in a fifth infielder and replace one of your outfielders.

(09:29):
What he did is he replaced his center fielder with
a different centerfielder, a guy who was a little bit
more capable. Edmund was dealing with some leg issues, Pies
had better sprint speed. He put him out in center
field and weaved magic for that team. On the other side,
I just got to talk a little bit about John
Schneider because he did some incredible things, too subtle as
they may have been, so he changed his starting rotation

(09:51):
going into the World Series. Bieber had pitched Game three
in the ALCS sureser Game four. He switched those two guys,
which strategically aligned Schurzer, the Game three starter, to also
be the Game seven starter in the event that the
series went to Game seven, which it absolutely did. He
wanted the guy with the most championship experience on the
mound in Game seven. I think that proved to be

(10:13):
a great decision, as Shuzer pitched extremely well and effectively
in Game seven. And keep in mind, Schuzer had been
one of the worst starters in the American League. The
last month of the season. He had a ten to
two EER. The league was hitting three forty eight off
him with a one oho three to one OPS, and
just as a point of reference, Shoeotani had a one
oh one to four OPS during the season. So during September,

(10:35):
Schuzer was turning the average hitter into something better than Shoeotani.
Schneider had the wherewithal to prioritize him in the World Series.
He wasn't even on the first Division Series roster. He
shows up in the ALCS pitch as well and pitches
extremely competitively in the World Series. The thing I will
say about John Schneider is he has done a magical

(10:56):
job throughout the year of engaging his entire thirteen man
position player. The postseason was no different. I think that's
something he's going to look back at. He made a
lot of decisions in that eighteen inning game. He ended
up taking a lot of their offense out. Springer was
already out of the game. He Pincher in for Bishett,
and then Barger and then Kirk. In each case, the

(11:18):
offense got a little bit weaker, the team got a
little bit faster. Unfortunately, the guys that he brought in
and what proved to be an eighteen in game went
one for fourteen, didn't necessarily help the team win again
in Game seven. I think there will be a lot
of conversation about pinch running for Bischett Kinder full f
as you reference, didn't get the lead he wanted to get,
didn't get the secondary doesn't score there. Then his spot

(11:39):
comes up in the order later he has to bunt
to try to help the team win and it doesn't
work out. And in that case, they ended up trying
to play for a tie. When Guerrero let off with
a double. I think you have to try to win
the game there. He probably just didn't have the right
personnel as he hoped in that situation. But Ryan, shifting
a little bit to the NBA, do do you feel
like head coach which makes significant impacts in teams ability

(12:03):
to win championships? Because in this case, I thought these
two guys were really instrumental in the outcomes of these games.
It's not always the case. Usually it's one on the field.
These guys were monumental to the outcomes of the World Series.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
I think the experience, the ability to stay calm and
cool under pressure, especially on the road, that I think,
you know, the road playoff environments we talked about a
relative to the World Series going up to Toronto. The
road playoff environments in the NBA can be brutal. The
fans are going nuts. The role players tend to play

(12:35):
a lot better at home, more confident, more comfortable, especially
shooting the basketball, than they are on the road, and
so I think having somebody who's been there, done that,
so to speak, has that confidence is important. I also
think that managing the team through the course of eighty
two games, you talked about how the managers adjusted in
the playoffs and in the World Series, specifically in MLB.

(12:57):
But there's an art to it, skill to it in
both sports. I think, you know, you don't want to
be playing your best basketball or baseball in the middle
of the season then be out of gas when it
comes time to the finish line. And it's easy to
say that in theory. It's a lot harder to do
that when when you're judged by wins and losses every night,
to maybe leave a winner two here and there on
the table to rest your stars a little bit more

(13:19):
than maybe you would like to, but you're playing the
long game. So I think that's it in the NBA,
and I think ultimately that in the NBA more than
any other sport, it does come down to your star
players and how they play on the biggest stage. But
you know, the the the head coaches roles, you know,
I think of Greg Popovich with Tim Duncan and company
in San Antonio, Steve Kerr with Steph Curry and company

(13:40):
in Golden State, Eric Spolster with a couple of different groups,
specifically the Lebron led groups down in Miami. You know
that that confidence that kind of wherewith all the fact
that they've been there, done that, I think when the
proverbial stuff hits the fan, the fact that they are calm,
cool and collected under pressure and and they've been there
and done that before, it gives their team a lot
of confidence as well and lets them, you know, play

(14:02):
through especially some of the valleys and come back on
the other side that. Another listener question is we go
back and forth year between the NBA and baseball. Amanda
from Santa Barbara, California asked that what do you make
of Dave roberts managing of the Dodgers' pitching staff in
Game seven? A little bit unusual because he went with
almost all starters that take us behind that decision, and again,

(14:26):
Roberts to me, seemed to pull all the right strings.
I think it was sheer sorcery.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
I think he may have been consulting Joe bu before
that one, because I mean, just pulled all the right
strings here. So you know, the Dodgers walk into the
playoffs as vaunted as they were, as prohibitive a favorite
as they were, their bullpen was leaking a little oil.
It was not their strongest unit, and you just referenced
it in your answer. Ryan, I think one of the
things that Dave Roberts did as well as anybody is

(14:53):
he understood the one hundred and sixty two game grind,
you know. So over the course of the season, you know,
no particular or almost all of their starters, Snell, Yamamoto,
and Glasnow all spent time on the il.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
So they got a little bit of rest.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Also, they you know, Otani didn't start pitching until the
second half of the season, so these guys had something
left in the tank, which was significant because in light
of the fact that the relievers were not performing as well,
he really leaned on his starters. So just a few
numbers the Dodgers pitching staff in Game seven of the
World Series, there was one hundred and ninety two pitches.

(15:30):
Dave Roberts, whose nickname is Doc Doc only in trusts
twenty one of those pitches. Eleven percent of the pitches
to an actual reliever. All the other pitchers were thrown
by starters. They used all four of their playoff starters.
We already talked about Yamamoto pitching on zero day's rest,
Well Snell pitched on one day's rest, and Glasnew was
in and he had closed out the previous game. It's

(15:51):
just an incredible decision by him, and it really worked
out exceptionally well. John Schneider wasn't too far behind. He
had only thirty four percent of his pitch is thrown
by his team the one hundred and seventy two day
threw or by relievers. The two teams combined for thirteen pitchers,
nine of them were actual starters. So you go into
a playoff series where each team has four starters designed.

(16:14):
The only starter who didn't pitch in Game seven was
Kevin Gosman, who had pitched Game six for the Blue Jays,
and who knows how much longer the game was going
to have to go before he was going to come in.
So it was a tail of really leaning on the starters,
not going to the relievers. And keep in mind, the
average game seven, with the way games are managed now,
the average starter is going to go three or four innings,

(16:34):
So that means you're relying on your relief relievers for
about sixty to sixty six percent of the pitches. In
this case, one manager used the pen for thirty four percent,
the other one for eleven percent. It was incredible how
they manage that. You know, one other thing, I just
you know, tied back into what you said, Ryan, about
how the fact that the Blue Jays may look back

(16:55):
at this one and feel like something slipped through their fingers.
Vegas has already got the eye out. For twenty twenty six.
ESPN bet has the Dodgers as the prohibitive favorite to
win the World Series in twenty twenty six. They have
the Blue Jays at twenty to one, which would be
the twelfth best odds and the third best in their
own division, behind the Yankees and.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
The Red Sox.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
So it just goes to show when you have these
opportunities and you don't capitalize on them, how troublesome they
can be. And I will tell you, Ryan, we've shared
with the listeners in the past our own personal experiences
with near misses and championships. About halfway through that game,
I started having some PTSD recollecting the twenty eleven World
Series when the Texas Rangers, who I was working for,

(17:39):
unfortunately missed an opportunity to beat the Saint Louis Cardinals.
You start having that gut feeling like the Blue Jays
weren't doing enough to win the game, and they were
putting themselves at risk to lose it. The Dodgers went
out there and won it. I'm concerned. I think the
Blue Jay should look back and be exceptionally proud of
what they accomplished this year. It was a tremendous season
for them. Nonetheless, it will be something where they look

(18:01):
back and they think something slipped through their fingers on
this World Series that unfortunately may hunt them for quite
some time.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
You're right that, and it's easy to say all they'll
be back, but there are no guarantees of that. You
pointed to your own to your own personal example with
the Texas Rangers. The year before twenty ten, with the
Boston Celtics, We're up three to two in the NBA Finals,
went to Staples Center, lost Game six, got blown out,
and then had a fourteen point lead in Game seven.
Kobe Bryant pagosall and the Lakers came rolling back to

(18:28):
win the twenty ten championship. And that was the last
time I was part of the finals. Now, Luckily for
the Celtics, they did a great job resetting it after
I left. Some brilliant moves by Danny Aging Company, and
they got back to the finals a couple times now,
including winning the championship in twenty twenty four, But there
are no guarantees that you'll be back. We know some
of the long suffering fan bases in different sports. The

(18:50):
Phoenix Suns, who I work for historically, obviously going way back,
they've since broken the curses. But the Boston Red Sox
and the Chicago Cubs, those went generations. People lived long,
in full lives and never saw those teams win a
World Series. So that what are your thoughts on that?
It just seems so difficult and mentally as much as physically,
because the season's over. The Dodgers are holding the trophy

(19:13):
that the Blue Jays were right there, but right there
doesn't mean anything when you go to spring training in
February and you have to do the whole thing again
and you realize how difficult it's going to be to
get back to the top of the mountain.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Well, and I think Toronto has to look at it
and see how much went right for them this year,
whether it was you know, Garrett Cole being hurt for
the Yankees. The Red Sox are on the up and come,
but they're not quite there just yet. Baltimore had a
little bit of a challenging season this year, so it's
just going to be so hard for them to get
back and they have to look back and say they
got so much value out of some of their their

(19:45):
star players. Bobaschet's now a free agent, so they're going
to have to replace him unless they resign him, and
so it's just it's so difficult to get back there.
The one thing I think is so cruel about sports
is that they ended up finishing second teams, but in
summer regards their viewed as the first loser, and that's
a shame that we look at things that way. They

(20:06):
really should be able to hold their head high. I mean,
it was just a spellbinding season and the reality is
they outplayed the Dodgers. The Dodgers starting rotation, which the
Dodgers have invested over a billion dollars in that Toronto
went toe to toe with those guys. The offense, which
was so star studded on the Dodgers side so much
has made they have at least three, if not four,

(20:27):
Hall of Famers in that lineup. Toronto has some guys
who are less well known. Five of the six best
hitters in this world series were Toronto Blue Jays. The
sixth one was obviously Otani. Six of the top eight
were Toronto Blue Jays. They outperformed their counterparts across the diamond.
They didn't end up winning. It doesn't take away from
how magical the season should be for the Toronto Blue

(20:49):
Jays fans. But nonetheless, as the dust settles, the Dodgers
have another championship. And Ryan, one of the things that
we talked about, I think in a recent episode, which
is so unfortunate, is now Isaiah kinder Filefi. You referenced
that he didn't get the greatest lead at third base.
He's literally a toe's length away from still scoring on
that play that milguil Rojas made, that exceptional play. He

(21:11):
doesn't score, they don't win right there, and now all
of a sudden, he's getting threats of bodily harmed to
him through social media outlets and maybe even death threats.
And that's just such an unfortunate blight on sports that
fans feel compelled or entitled to share those sentiments with players.
He was unequivocally trying his best. He's already taken accountability

(21:33):
for that play. He wishes he did it a little
bit different, but I would like to fans to keep
in mind. Game six ended with Adison Bargarer at second
base getting doubled off on a second and third situation
with one out. I can imagine that John Schneider, as
they were preparing for Game seven, if you didn't say
let's be a little bit more conservative on the bass pass,
I'm guessing the players actively chose to do that because

(21:54):
you can't afford to have that happen a second time.
Barger was a little aggressive in Game six, it didn't
work out. Lef unfortunately, was a little conservative in Game seven,
it also didn't work out. I'm not so certain that
that doesn't mean they both were acting the best interests
in the team at the time.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Well, it's easy to say, sitting on your couch, you
should have done this or should have done that, But
we've seen in sports the margin at the highest levels
is often razor thin. It certainly was in this series
with the play as you mentioned that, the catch in
left center field when it looked like the Blue Jays
we had won the World Series, and others so tremendous
series that we'll have more on the baseball offseason here

(22:31):
on Rosters to Rings in a minute that we're going
to come back right after this in segment two. We're
going to get into the NBA. A couple of big
storylines in the NBA with John Moranz, teams underperforming, teams
overperforming so far. I we'll get into that some of
your listener questions as well. Stay with us. We'll be
right back on Rosters to Rings.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Welcome back to Rosters the Rings alongside Ryan McDonough. I
am fad Levine.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Ryan.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
We got a listener question from Tasha from Knoxville, Tennessee,
surrounding John morint and the Memphis Grizzlies. But first of all,
let's listen to some audio from post game Friday night.
Why can you cueue up the audio for us?

Speaker 1 (23:20):
What went wrong to you today? A glass coach stoff?
Do you feel like I mean, it was anything you
could do differently like this re rot so they had
a whole spill to here. So from the outside and
outside may be wrong, but from the outside it didn't
look like you had.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
Your usual energy tonight after stop, Well, okay, do you
feel like you should play more? Oh?

Speaker 1 (23:45):
A coach store or.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
What had been done? What could have been done different,
get a different outcome other than asking the coaching staff.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Uh, according to the don't probably don't play me.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Honestly, that's who basically a message will after.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
So it's cool.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
The coaching staffs were cool. We're good.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
You'd have anything physically wrong from his illness or anything.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Okay, oh fall all right, Ryan a ton to unpack.
They're clearly a disconnect between John Morant and the coaching staff.
Tasha from Knoxville wants you to weigh in on how
concerned should she be about the latest development with Ja
Morant and the Memphis Grizzlies coaching staff.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
It's certainly concerning that as a fan of the NBA,
especially if you're a Grizzlies fan, in particular this early
in the season. We're only a handful of games into
the NBA season. After those comments you heard on Friday night,
John Morant was suspended for one game for conduct detrimental
to the team. That is a team suspension. They have
the right to do that. The suspension came on the

(24:51):
heels of Grizzlies coach Thomas Isalo, who was new this
year in the full time role. He was named the
interim coach last year taking over for Taylor Jenkins. Isallo
challenged Moran's leadership in effort in a postgame exchange after
Friday Night's loss to the LA Lakers. Morant responded, in

(25:11):
the tone you heard there, the team felt it was inappropriate,
So hence the one game suspension. A lot of layers
here at that, because think of the situation. Islo's in
European born head coach. There haven't been many in NBA history.
He takes over his interim head coach. Frankly, the team
does not do great at the end of the year
last year, in the regular season or in the playoffs,

(25:31):
He's given the head job regardless. And think of the
guy he replaced, Taylor Jenkins, who is the Grizzlies all
time regular season wins leader. He went past Lionel Hollins.
Taylor Jenkins had a career record of two hundred and
fifty wins and two hundred and fourteen losses with the Grizzlies.
His tenure endured when he was fired this past March.
So a lot of layers here at that. I think

(25:52):
another important one. It's really not ideal in any way
for the Grizzlies or for John Moran, frankly individually on
a big contract that he's got three years, one hundred
and twenty six million dollars remaining on his deal, that's
at about forty two million dollars per year, and his
teams around the league evaluate Morant. One of the main
concerns they have that in addition to this kind of

(26:13):
behavior is the health that John Morant's been in the
league for six years. He's never played more than sixty
seven games in a season. So even if he is playing,
how available is he going to be, how durable is
he going to be for a team training for him.
You combine that with the big contract, also the fact
that John Morant is extension eligible next offseason, so it's

(26:36):
not ideal. And one final point that I think on
Jah in the Grizzlies and how it impacts the franchise. Well,
Memphis is obviously one of the smallest markets in the NBA,
but the business impact. Some of the tickets on Monday
Night for sale in the Grizzlies home game against the
Detroit pistonstad they were selling for just two dollars. You
could pay two dollars to get in the building for

(26:57):
the Detroit Pistons at Memphis Grizzlies game on Monday night.
So certainly not an ideal situation all the way around,
and at that, I think the toughest part for anybody
who's a Grizzlies fan in particular is this was a
team that looked like one of the up and coming
squads last year, a couple of years ago, not only
just in the Western Conference, but in the NBA. They
had John Morant looked like a young superstar, Jared Jackson Junior,

(27:19):
and Desmond Baine. Well, we talked about the issues with Morant.
Desmond Bain is gone, he was traded to Orlando this offseason.
Jaron Jackson Junior is injured despite recently signing a contract extension.
So with that, we've talked about it a lot, and
I think we will continue to do so on this show.
How quickly things can change in pro sports. Look like
the Grizzlies are going to be a force to be
reckoned with for five or ten years in the NBA.

(27:40):
A few years back now we're wondering how long is
Joah Morant going to be in Memphis, And well, the
Grizzlies fully blow it up and go through a full
blown rebuild, which is difficult because the core of their
team was very talented and looked like they were going
to be in Grizzlies uniforms for a while just a
few years ago. Ryan, you've talked about this before.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
It's really unfortunately remarkable to see the slide that this
franchise has had Tyler Jenkins on top of it, was
like one of the NBA starred coaches as well in
this group, and you know, it's amazing how quickly things
can fall apart, and so much of his you know,
it hinges upon the character of some of your stars
on your team and how reliable, how available they are.

(28:22):
But what type of tone they said, And when you
watch this video, it's hard not to see that there
is a chasm between that one of their star players
and now they're coaching staff and perhaps the front office
as well. It seems as if they're in very tenuous footing.
From your perspective as a former general manager in the NBA,
what is John Morant's trade value right now and what

(28:42):
would you recommend that they do right now with him
as an asset.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, it's severely diminished. And that's the hard part that
one of the challenges that I think those of us
who have been executive in the team side have. If
a player is upset, he's underperforming, he's not playing his best.
That makes him more difficult to trade. And so that
was always the message from the front office if a
player was upset, say look, I understand you're upset, and

(29:06):
you have to be honest as far as whether you'd
potentially consider moving the player or not. But there were
certain times where I thought the relationship was maybe too
far gone between the player and the franchise where we'd say, look,
we'll try to trade you, but you need to help us.
You need to do your part, you need to play well,
you need to be a good citizen. If that happens,
that rebuilds your value. We're only going to trade you
if it's in the best interests of the franchise. And so,

(29:29):
you know, that conversation to me a little difficult because
the opposite of that that is kind of the desk spiral,
where the player gets more and more frustrated, he shuts
down on the coaching staff and the organization. He plays worse.
The other twenty nine teams are now given pause. Either
they're not making any kind of trade offer, or they're
making low ball trade offers, you know, basically in some

(29:50):
cases maybe just unloading their bad contracts and saying, look,
we're not really going to give you anything of a value.
In fact, we want you to take back some of
these contracts we think are negative value for just kind
of taking a problem off your hands. That's bottom fishing.
I imagine that happens in MLB as well. And one example,
one thing I was thinking of with Job, because I
imagine there's a significant segment of fans of our listeners
are probably saying, well, why does Memphis just you know,

(30:12):
just get rid of them? Set an example and re
set it that a lot of people said that about
Kyrie Irving after Kyrie's issues initially with the Cleveland Cavaliers
and then with the Boston Celtics where he committed to
re sign verbally and then backed out in his commitment
and went to the Brooklyn Nets, and then especially in
Brooklyn's that so that's three different places, the first three

(30:33):
teams of Kyrie Irving's career where there are issues. And
I bring that up relative to Job because I think
Brooklyn had no choice. They felt that they didn't have
a choice. They traded Kyrie Irving to the Dallas Mavericks
for not much, and we know what happened in Dallas.
Kyrie Irving with Luka Donsis. Those were the two best
players on a team that won the Western Conference and
went to the NBA Finals, and Dallas really didn't have

(30:54):
to give up much value. So that's why you don't
do it that. There are reasons to trade a John
Moran in the situation, the impact on the locker room,
the impact on the young players, making the coaches job easier.
All of those things may be true, but the reality
is of it in pro sports, in the NBA in particular,
where your franchise usually defined by your best players. John

(31:15):
Morant is an extremely talented player, and we've seen what
he can do when his head is screwed on straight
and he's motivated and fully committed. So that's the challenge, Todd,
and as you know as an executive, that's what keeps
you up at night, because you don't want to be
the general manager who gives them away for pennies and
the dollar and have them him be recommitted and figure
it out somewhere else and then come back and kick

(31:36):
your behinds for the next couple of years because he's
motivated now to prove that you made a poor decision.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Well, and I think ran you hit on it is
our goal is ideally to always buy low and sell
high like that's what we're trying to do, and so
we're constantly using all the information at our disposal to
understand what is the fair market value for our players
and make sure we don't sell them for anything less
than that. But I think there is a position there
you talked about it. It's every team has principles, and

(32:05):
you know, your stars have to be available to play
your reference, you only play sixty seven games a year.
Your stars also have to elevate the play of the
players around them, not detract from it. And you know,
I think our goal is to always treat every player
fairly but not necessarily the same. If you have a
superstar player, they're going to get more consideration as you
just reference, they are going to get more opportunities, and

(32:26):
they're going to get more latitude. But there is a
point at which your principles as your team and what
the divisive nature some of your players have does supersede
the just sheer talent and so I thinks as listeners
out there, when you question some trades that are made
and you think that that doesn't seem fair, or maybe
we gave up too much talent there. Sometimes there are

(32:46):
things going on behind the scenes, There are other elements
that are factoring into that player's value. And so you
see players like Raphael Devers, who we've talked about, getting
traded a perennial All Star. You reference Kyrie Irving, We'll
see what they do with John Morant. And then on
the other side of the coin too, you have the
Luka Doncic trade, where I think Nico Harrison in the

(33:07):
Mavericks front office felt that was the right time to
move him. It left a lot of the fans scratching
their heads because it seemed disproportionate to the talent. They
didn't get necessarily the talent in return that they should have.
There are other things going on behind the scenes. Sadly
that probably hasn't worked out, and so it's important that
executives always remain patient and objective, don't put your own

(33:28):
emotions into these deals. But if you have a group
of people around you, if you've got systems that help
you really understand what the value of your player is
then we're still try and commit to selling high. But
the caveat there is it's not just about the talent
on the court. It's not just about the talent on
the field. It's also the influence within the clubhouse at times.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
No question about it. That And it's easy to say
from the outside while they should trade a player or not,
but the reality of it is, if your team is underperforming,
you know, the Grizzlies front office took some criticism for
firing Taylor Jenkins back in the spring, as we mentioned,
the winningest coach in the history of that franchise, then
for trading Desmond Bane to the Orlando Magic. That move

(34:08):
was largely financially related. I think some of the frustration
that from Morant is that Jaron Jackson Junior just got
a big contract extension and then it came out shortly
after he'd signed the huge extension that he's injured and
get to miss a significant part of time to start
the year. Moran's eligible for an extension next offseason, it
doesn't seem like the Grizzlies want to give it to
him at this point, I think for reasons that are understandable.

(34:31):
So then the question then that becomes what reverses this?
How do we change the momentum short of firing a
head coach again, which I think would set a really
bad precedent and be very unfair to Thomas Sisilo seven
games into his first season as a permanent head coach.
So how do we shift this and is it salvageable?
Keep in mind, we're recording this show in early November.

(34:52):
The trade deadline in the NBA is not till early February,
so they got about three months that to figure this out.
Will John Morant be in a Grizzlies uniform? But I
know this, the other teams are lined up with their
pro personnel guys. There'll be a lot more of them
at Grizzlies games, you know, talking to people around the program.
Any of us can watch on TV and see what
the broadcast shows us. But this is what teams do

(35:12):
that in the NBA, in Major League Baseball, they're really
going to dig in to see, all right, how much
of these issues are John Morant created? How much would
be alleviated if our team traded for him? And then
they'll report back to the team president and GM and
ultimately those guys need to make a call. So, yeah,
I'm fascinated to see how this is going to end
up that because I don't think there's a clear right
answer here. The Grizzlies, obviously, historically in that market, are

(35:35):
not a free agent destination. So if you trade John
Morant to and keep in mind he's still in his
mid twenties, theoretically his best basketball should be in front
of him. He could blow up somewhere else. And that's
one of those decisions where if you don't do it right,
could come back to hunt your franchise for years. On
the other hand, he could drag down your franchise with
some promising young talent. Cedric Howard, the rookie out of

(35:56):
Washington State who was committed to Duke before going into
the draft, he looks like one of the deal, like
one of the better rookies in the draft. So they
have some young talent on that roster. Thad, you know
what will Moran's impact on them be if he's negative
and moping As these guys begin their NBA careers, all
of those decisions come in And I know this, and
I know you know this, but for our listeners, when
you're in that bubble. In that storm, everybody has a

(36:17):
strong opinion one way or another, and it is exhausting
to whether that and figure out what is the right
decision and what is the right time to make a decision.
But that is you know, that's why head coaches and
gms in particular get paid pretty well. You got to
have thick skin in these situations. Try to block out
the outside noise and make the right decision for your franchise,
even if that decision is not popular or it takes

(36:38):
some time to arrive at the right conclusion.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, I think he nailed it, Ryan, And I think
John Morant, when motivated and engaged, is one of the
best playmakers in the game. So you have to be
very thoughtful before you trade him. And I harken back
to a conversation we had with Greg Anthony in one
of our first episodes when he said, when you acquire
a star player, you have to understand how he fits
into your system in your personnel. I think he's a

(37:01):
unique fit. He's so dynamic on the court. But in
addition to what we're talking about here, he probably fits
into some environments better than others. I'm sure there'll be
a lot of suitors for him, you know, will track
this to see how they how they handle the situation
because the future of the franchise could pivot on this decision.
Right shifting a little bit, but staying in the NBA.

(37:21):
We talked in the first segment about what is now
a clear dynasty with the Los Angeles Dodgers. Well, the
last dynasty in the NBA was a Golden State Warriors,
And you've talked a lot about the fact that one
of the beauties of the game is in the last
seven years, there's been ultimate parodies seven different champions in
the NBA in the last seven years. Which do you
think has been better for the league when when there

(37:42):
was the dynasty of the Golden State Warriors or the
era of parody right now?

Speaker 1 (37:46):
I think it depends on the seat you sit in
and what market you're in. That if you're in a
big market, no, you want the dynasties, you know, you
want those teams, the Celtics, Lakers, Warriors, Bowls, you know,
the big market teams to have those kind of advantages
that the LA Dodgers have right now in Major League Baseball,
as did the New York Yankees, the Chicago Cubs and
a few others, with the Dodgers being at the top

(38:08):
of the pyramid. So I think when I was with
the Celtics that I probably liked it a little bit
more because you know, we had a near dynasty team
that won a championship, went to the finals another time,
and to the conference finals another time in a six
year run from two thousand and eight to twenty thirteen.
But I think, frankly, looking at it objectively, for the
good of the league, parody is better, and as we

(38:29):
know in the NBA, ectually me in the pro sports landscape,
the NFL is king, and I think part of the
reason the NFL is so popular that that you see
teams come from you know, barely in the playoffs or
even out of the playoffs, and go on to win
the Super Bowl the next year. The thought that not
every team has a chance, but a lot of teams
have a chance because the league is so balanced and
the NBA, as you reference, for the first time in

(38:52):
the history league, there have been seven different champions in
the past seven years, and I think that's a good
thing for the sport. I personally do I don't know
if the rates reflect that. I think New York Knicks,
LA Lakers finals would probably daw bigger numbers from a
national TV standpoint. But I think if you're a fan
of the OKAC Thunder the Indiana Pacers, we know what

(39:12):
San Antonio has done historically with their five championships. You
want this balance. I think this parody and this is
something I think Major League Baseball could learn from that.
I want to get your take on it. But you
and I have discussed a salary floor, and I think
that's one of the things the NBA has done very well.
You know, in addition to penalizing the highest spending teams
and kind of putting a harder cap on the system,

(39:34):
they bring the floor up and the teams kind of
operate in that middle range. So I think this is
the new normal in the NBA. And so I don't
think you're going to see a team win, say four
championships in six years, for example. I just don't think
that's going to happen again. That OKAC has as good
a chance of any but so much has to go right,
and at some point when you're in that second aprin territory,

(39:56):
in particular in the luxury tax, that after about three
years you're going to have to get out of that.
You're going to have to cut payroll. So that makes
it difficult to sustain a dynasty, and I think opens
the playing field to you know, more teams and teams
that weren't maybe in the mix a couple of years back.
I'll say, like the Houston Rockets, for example, now or
the Cleveland Cavaliers now have a real chance to contend

(40:17):
for a championship.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
You know, Ryan, I worked for our teams for twenty
five years, and twenty four of those twenty five I
was outside the top ten payroll. So I'm a big
fan of the parody concept. I'm not on the dynasty,
but I think, you know, more than anything, you want
as many fan bases to start the season with genuine,
authentic hope that they can win a championship. I just
think it matters to the sport. And as much as

(40:39):
we talked about Toronto versus the Dodgers, Toronto was the
fifth highest payroll, so they weren't they weren't, you know,
one of the lower payroll teams, but they were much
junior to the Dodgers that that franchise hadn't won a
World Series since nineteen ninety three. That was part of
the narrative that you know, tug at all of our heartstrings,
that you wanted to see that market, you know now
the only team and can in Major League Baseball. You

(41:01):
wanted that country, You wanted that market to get a
chance to celebrate a championship. I think it's just so
vital to sports to spread that euphoria around because it's
it really is life altering. I mean, I think I've
experienced in my career. I'm not sure there's anything more
galvanizing than a gut wrenching loss. The second best thing
is to actually win a championship. I wish for the

(41:22):
Toronto Blue Jays that they had that opportunity and that
more franchises started the season in Major League Baseball with
the genuine hope that they could actually win come season's end,
No question.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
About it, that you don't want it to feel like
a disappointment. Toronto was the American League champions. They were
right there in the World Series. Yes, it's bitter, it's things,
but in a league with thirty teams that have come
in second, there's no shame in that fat We're going
to be right back after this with a new segment
here on Rosters to Rings. I'm excited for this one.
Our producer Wyatt is going to get into some listener questions.

(41:53):
You and I will respond to those questions. Eastad Levine,
I'm Ryan McDonough. Stick with us. We're back with your
listener questions right after.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
This Welcome back to Roster's Strings with Ryan McDonagh and
fad Levigne. Ryan were dusting off a new segment here
our producer why it is going to catch us up
on some of the listeners questions that we haven't been

(42:20):
able to get to for the last couple of weeks.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
So back by.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Popular demand, we are going to engage more closely with
the listeners. Why kick us off with our first question?

Speaker 1 (42:29):
Please?

Speaker 3 (42:30):
All right, guys, just want to remind our listeners out
there to submit any questions you have for Ryan and
that on x or Instagram at Rosters to Rings. Can
dm us reply comment on a post, We'll find it
and do the best we can to answer it on
the show. So, first question for both of you from
Elliott in Iowa. How much does a World Series or

(42:51):
Championship run impact a GM's job security the following season?
Does it buy you time or raise expectations.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
I think you time that in the NBA. Certainly in
the short term it does. It's been the history of it.
Now after a season or two, there's no guarantee. I
think as much of it foreign NBA executive is your
body of work in terms of if you've produced consistently
good teams over a period of say five, ten, fifteen years,
that even if you have a down year, that buys

(43:21):
you some time. I think it's much or even more
so than a championship does. A couple examples on both
sides of it, I think, most recently on the negative front,
Calvin Booth the first time GM takes over for the
Denver Nuggets from when Tim Connolly leaves and goes to Minnesota.
Conley got and deserved a lot of credit for building
the core of that Nuggets team that won the championship

(43:43):
in twenty twenty three, well earlier this spring this past year.
Calvin Booth gets gets fired less than two years later,
as does Michael Malone, the head coach of the Nuggets.
So that's a negative example. Others, though Bob Myers was
in Golden State for four titles, they had a couple
down years when Staph and Clay and those guys got injured,
he left on his own terms and left a contract

(44:04):
extension on the table. RC Buford and San Antonio has
five championships. The Spurs had a downstretch here last handful
of years. They have not been in the playoffs, after
the longest playoff streak in NBA history. He's still there
and entrenched and not going anywhere other than to the
Hall of Fame someday, despite the team missing the playoffs
for a handful of years. So how about in MLBF
that does a World Series title guarantee you anything? Or

(44:27):
is it what's more of my interpretation of it, is
it pro sports or what have you done for me Latelyly?
Just ask some of these college football coaches about that
that the historical performance doesn't always guarantee that you're going
to be employed in your current spot for a number
of years.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Well, no doubt, ownership sometimes has short term memories and
they're very responsive to the uproar from fans. So I'm
going to come up with a few examples as well.
You know, we talk about Ross Atkins, who's the general
manager of the Toronto Blue Jays. He entered the season
coming off a last place finished. Both he and John Schneider,
the the manager, were both on the hot seat kind
of entering this season, and there was a sense of

(45:04):
if they didn't perform this well this year, they may
be in trouble. Well, they end up going to the
World Series and now probably are both in line to
win the Manager of the Year and the Executive of
the Year and hopefully get job security that is commensurate
with their performance this year. I'm thinking of a few
other guys. Ben Sherrington famously led the Boston Red Sox
to the twenty thirteen World Series. Unfortunately, the team finishes

(45:25):
in last place the next two years and he loses
his job after twenty fifteen. James Click was a very
unique situation in baseball. In his third year with the
Houston Astros as their general manager, they actually won the
World Series in twenty twenty two. He departs after that
season when he and ownership could not get on the
same page for a contract moving forward. And then famously

(45:46):
Dave Dombrowski, who is en route to going to the.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Hall of Fame.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Over the last thirty three years, he's remarkably been a
GM for thirty of those years for five different teams,
taking four of them to the World Series. But he's
also moved around a lot, so he's had a tremendous
job security, but not with the same team. So that's
a little bit of a different route to go, but
three clearly different examples in Major League Baseball.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
I think Whyatt's got another one for us? Why what
do you have in the can? All right?

Speaker 3 (46:14):
Next question is from Timmy Kay in Portland, Oregon. Ryan,
how much should we make of a team getting off
to a hot start or if our team gets off
to a rough start in the NBA?

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, Historically they're both pretty good indicators. The teams usually
start four or five and zero or more almost always
make the playoffs. On the other hand, the teams start
out oh four, oh and five or have more loss
than that rarely make the playoffs. So that early there
are a couple of surprises in the NBA. I think
Chicago at five and one. Josh Getty has played great.
Keep an eye on modest Buzealis, especially for any Bulls

(46:47):
fans listening. They're young. Ford I think has a chance
to be an All Star in a couple of years.
Really bouncy can shoot it. You know, both fans have
been waiting a long time for a player to build around.
They may have one in Buzelli's. So those are on
the positive side, and then on the negative side, a
few disappointments, the Brooklyn Nets have been awful. That I
was wrong too as far as what the Brooklyn Nets

(47:08):
were going to do in the draft. Last year and
the lead up to the twenty twenty five draft, the
Brooklyn Nets had five first round picks. I said on
record on radio NTV, there's no way they're going to
use all five first round picks. They did, so I
was wrong as far as what they were going to
do that. I'm not sure I was wrong as far
as the logic and why they shouldn't have done it.
Because this is a non competitive team and Vegas had

(47:30):
them with a preseason win total somewhere maybe in the
upper teams to around twenty. I think they're going to
struggle to reach that. This is a team that playing
so many young guys, they just don't look like a
basketball team that against any competent team, has a real
chance to win night in, night out. So I feel
for Jordy Fernandez in company and Fernandez already a week
or so into the season's talking about he's trying to

(47:51):
figure out what he can do to try to get
his team to play hard. As you know that that's
a red flag. We've seen teams let go of the
rope late in the year, win a week or week
and half of the season. Head coach is saying with
a young roster, trying to figure out how to get
these guys to play harder. That's a pretty major red
flag from my experience. And then a couple others Dad
in the Western Conference who have underperformed New Orleans Pelicans.

(48:12):
They're not just ohero and six that they're getting blown
out routinely. Willie Green, their head coaches on the hot seat.
Zion continues to be in and out of lineup, and
we talked about John Morant earlier in the show. Unfortunately,
as we look back at the twenty nineteen draft, as
we sit here today, it's really a case of the
what IF's dad with Zion, Williamson much harold a number

(48:33):
one pick out of Duke, John Morant much harolded number
two pick out of Murray State. We know how talented
those guys are at that, but we also know, a
lot of nonsense is surrounded both of them, and hopefully
they can get on track and figure it out. They're
still young in their career's Dad. But the Pelicans, they
have a minus eighteen point one point differential through six games, Dad,
that's historically bad. In fact, usually if your minus double digits,

(48:55):
that's generally awful. They're minus eighteen points. So they haven't
been competitive. And when one final one that that I
think is really interesting. I want to get your take
on it as well. That is the Dallas Mavericks. We
talked about it earlier in the show. Bringing in Kyrie
Irving was a win for the organization. Trading away Luca
Donstis looks like a major loss for the organization at
this point if we had a Peggott. The Dallas Mavericks

(49:17):
are two and five, that is fourteenth or second to
last in the Western Conference. Kyrie Irving is injured to
start the year. Anthony Davis, as he tends to be,
is in and out of the lineup, and a real
concern for me as I really got granular and broke
down the map. Schedule is Dallas had the first five
games at home. Their sixth game was in Mexico City,

(49:37):
so that means their first true road game wasn't until
this past Monday night in Houston. They lost that game,
so that now Dallas is two and five. They have
the fourth worst point differential in the league, behind only
the aforementioned New Orleans Pelicans and the two teams that
I thought and still think are going to end up
as the worst teams league, the Brooklyn Nets and the
Washington Wizards. So that I want to get your take

(49:58):
from a fan perspective, though, if you're Nico Harrison, Jason
Kidd and company in Dallas, it's not great that you're
down with those teams. I know you've had some injuries,
but they're also decent expectations that would at least be
a playoff competitive team. It's not great that you're mentioned
with those teams toward the bottom of the barrel, especially
with the guy you traded away, Luka Donsich driving in
a Lakers' uniform. Well, Ryan, I just look at it

(50:20):
from a fans perspective, where would they be without getting
the first pick in the draft and getting Cooper flagged?

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Would people have already lost their jobs? You know, none
of us like to hear this none like to report
on this, but you hear the chance in the stands
of you know, fire their general manager and that those
are starting to percolate again. We heard them last year,
we're hearing them again this year. In addition to all
the talent they have on the court, what is regarded
I imagine as one of the better head coaches and

(50:47):
Jason Kidd it's not working right now. Another just observation
I'd have relative to the Brooklyn nets is we talked
in the first question we answered was about how does
winning championships impact your job security? Well, that doesn't always
correlate highly to job security. Well, when you tell your
owner that we're rebuilding and we're going to struggle, how
much can you struggle before your job security is impaired?

(51:09):
Again on that side of the ball, because once you lose,
and when you're losing, you know sixty to eighty percent
of your games, you get associated with the losses. It's
tough for head coaches, for managers, and for general managers
to weather that storm when you become intrinsically linked to
the losing. And so I would be curious to follow
those teams as well to see how much despite the

(51:31):
owners being on board with those those strategies to rebuild
living it is an entirely different thing. Why what do
we have up next?

Speaker 3 (51:39):
All right, next question from James Fox nine to one
seven on x fad your thoughts on the qualifying offer
system and why MLB penalizes clubs for trying to spend
money on players.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
So I think what James just for the listeners to understand,
so that the qualifying offer this year is going to
be twenty two million dollars right around there. And what
it is is it's an average of the top one
hundred and twenty five contracts in the game. For a
player to be eligiblely, he has to be on your
roster for the full season, he has to be free
agent eligible, and he must not have been traded during

(52:13):
the season. So there are a number of players who
are in consideration this year, in no particular order, Guys
who I think will most likely get qualifying offers Kyle Schwarber,
Kyle Tucker, Edwin Diaz, Franbur Valdez, Rangers, Swore Az Bobashett,
Dylan Cees. Those guys are most likely going to get them,
and I think it will be very fascinating to watch
because since twenty twelve, I think only fourteen of the

(52:36):
close to one hundred and forty five players who have
been offered qualifying offers have actually accepted them, which means
that they are on a one year deal for that
average of the top one hundred and twenty five salaries.
Once again, this year that'll be twenty two million. It's
a one year deal. If they don't accept, they become
free agents, and then the team that signs them has
to yield one of their high draft picks and the

(52:57):
team that lost them gets a draft And I think
what James is referring to here, and I think an
easy fix here is the team that is losing the player.
When Kyle Tucker signs elsewhere, the Chicago Cubs should get
an additional draft pick, but perhaps the team that signs
them shouldn't have to give up a draft pick. What
that has proven to be is a real drag on

(53:17):
the earning potential of the players who are very good
but maybe aren't elite, so that probably won't impact Actually
Kyle Tucker, that was a bad example, but guys who
are a little bit more on the margins, teams will
be reluctant to give up that first round pick. We
value those so highly, so in addition to having to
pay the player aggressively to sign them, you have to
factor into that valuation while I'm also giving up my

(53:40):
first round pick or in some cases second or third
round pick, depending on where you are on the payroll structure.
That is a real drag. It's proven unequivocally to be
a real drag on those good to not elite players
who hit the free agent market.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
So I think a really.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Meaningful workaround is just remove the giving of the draft pick.
The team that loses the player should receive one. Now
we don't have the drag on the earning potential. You
still accomplish what you set out to do, which is
give the team that lost the player some compensation for
losing them. But make no mistake, the way the rule
is written right now, it's meant to not only protect

(54:17):
a team who loses them, but also to put a
little bit of a drag on the earning potential that
player hitting the market, giving them more incentive just to
resign that one year deal with the team.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
And we'll see if that changes in the next collective
bardaining agreement that we know potential workstoppage in m Major
League Baseball after the twenty twenty sixth season. Why what
do we have next?

Speaker 3 (54:38):
Next question from Shannon in Indiana. Ryan, your thoughts on
Miles Turner's recent comments about free agency.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
Yeah, it's very interesting. On Monday night, Miles Turner returned
to Indianapolis for the first time as a visitor. He
spent a decade in a Pacers uniform, leading that team
to the Eastern Conference Finals two years ago. And then
the NBA. We know how close the Pacers were, losing
in Game seven just this past season to the OKC
Thunder and then that the Milwaukee Bucks really surprised a

(55:08):
lot of people, myself included in the NBA world being
as aggressive as they were to get Miles Turner. It
was a weak free agent class overall. So the Bucks
did something that frankly, no team has ever done before,
at least at the level Milwaukee did it. They waved
and stretched a star and Damian Lillard. They waved him
off the roster, they stretched out his contracts, they blew
open a bunch of salary cap space. It was really unexpected,

(55:31):
and that's, as you know, one of the hard things
when you're running a team, you try to anticipate every
scenario and analyze the competition. What are other teams going
to do, what are they not going to do, what's
most likely to happen. But there's always the wildcart that
the kind of black swan that you weren't anticipating. I
think that was the Milwaukee Bucks doing what they did
with Dame to get Miles Turner. And so his comments
I thought were really interesting. He claims that Indiana and

(55:54):
Milwaukee made the following offers. That he said the Pacers
offer was just three years, sixty six million dollars total,
that's twenty two million a year. Contrast that with the
deal he signs in Milwaukee that four years, one hundred
and seven million, that's about twenty eight million a year.
So we're talking about forty million dollars more guaranteed from

(56:14):
the Milwaukee Bucks than the Pacers had on the table.
And this is at least according to Turner, which is
you know that these negotiations are fluid and sometimes people
have different versions of what was offered or not, especially
when a deal falls apart. But that I thought the
comments were really interesting. I want to get your take
on it, because they asked him, was it a tough
decision to take Milwaukee's offer and leave the Pacers the

(56:35):
only franchise that Miles Turner's ever known, And he said,
quote that I've always been told when I was in
trade rumors, this is a business. It's a forty million
dollar difference at the end of the day. Close quote.
So that Miles Turner is one of the sharpest guys
in the NBA, you know, always represented the team and
himself well on and off the court. And I was
impressed really to hear him put it this bluntly. I

(56:56):
know it's not necessarily what Pacers fans want to hear,
but he just said, you know, basically I'm paraphrasing, but
this is my last big contract. I've never been paid
to this level before, so I wanted to maximize earnings,
which is essentially what he did well.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
And you know, I think as fans, as executives, as owners,
people want the players to prioritize the name on the front,
the name of their team the city, over the name
on the back, which is their last name. But in practice,
this is a business, and I think, you know, the
reality of it is they should be able to honor
both the name on the front and the name on
the back. I think most players are geared and aligned

(57:30):
with giving the hometown team a little bit of a discount.
That sounded like it was a significant discount, and I
don't think we should expect our star players to give
a significant discount. Maybe some consideration, but not that magnitude.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
All right, Next question from Jason in Los Angeles that
after watching Shoho Tani starre in another world series, how
much is a player like him really worth?

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Well, to answer Jason's question, I think we're going to
have to have some fun with men. So let's look
at his contract to start with, which is to say
they signed him to a ten year, seven hundred million
dollar deal. But there's a lot to this contract. He's
actually only getting paid twenty million dollars over the first
ten years. Six hundred and eighty million of it is

(58:15):
deferred for the next the next ten years, so the
actual net present value of this deal is four hundred
and sixty million, or forty six million dollars per year.
So in addition, there's a conservative estimate that the Dodgers
have garnered seventy million dollars in new sponsorship dollars as
a function of signing shoe Aotani. So let's assume those

(58:38):
are five year deals. I don't know that that's the case.
Well let's assume it, which means that they'll have a
second bite in this ten year deal. So they'll get
one hundred and forty million dollars approximately in sponsorship dollars.
That may end up being a very conservative number, but
now you take that and subtract it from the four
to sixty. Now the deal is down to a three
hundred and twenty million dollar deal, or thirty two million dollars.

(59:00):
So now let's look at the other side of the equation.
How much value has Otani already delivered. As teams, we
tend to pay about eight to twelve million dollars per
unit of war, depending on where we are in the
payroll structure. The Dodgers are at the highest, so let's
assume they're willing to pay twelve million dollars per unit
of war. Over his first two years, Otani has averaged

(59:21):
eight point two units of war per year for the Dodgers.
So that is a cool one hundred and ninety six
million dollars of value in the first two years. Keep
in mind the total cost of this deal is around
three hundred twenty million based upon our back of the
envelope math. So, but not all wars created equal. The
first three units are probably worth about twelve million. I
think you could argue the next five are worth considerably more,

(59:43):
but let's put.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
That off to the side for this this evaluation.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Let's also actually, you know, as he's moving through the
remaining eight years, will apply a reasonable agent curve and
that should net him a total value over ten years.
Once again, these are total rough numbers of about seven
hundred and eighty five million dollars that he will deliver
in value to the Los Angeles Dodgers. Juxtaposed against a

(01:00:08):
three hundred and twenty million dollar cost, it's two and
a half times the value is contract. I think the
Dodgers feel unequivocally like they've got to steal with sho
Hey Otani.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Well, that's always the debate in pro sports that your
superstars in the NBA in particular, you can't value them
highly enough. The most underplayed underpaid player statistically in the
NBA in last couple decades is Lebron James, who's actually
one of the highest paid but his productivity is just
off the charts statistically in a major league baseball Otani
looks like that kind of guy as well. Thanks for

(01:00:39):
joining us this week four thad Levine for our producer Wyatt,
who I think is taking his check and going with
the Rolls Royce dealership right after the show, I am
Ryan McDonald. Join us next week. We'll have some NFL
trade deadline talk, we'll have more Major League baseball off season,
and we'll talk more about the NBA and college basketball
underway as well. Thanks for listening. The Rosters the Ranks, Sush,