Racist Sports Mascots (feat. Bomani Jones) | Beyond the Scenes from The Daily Show

Roy discusses the few sports teams who still capitalize off racist Native stereotypes with sports journalist, Bomani Jones and executive director of IllumiNative and citizen of Pawnee Crystal, Echo Hawk. Although teams like the Cleveland Guardians and the Washington Commanders have changed their branding from anti-Native imagery and slurs, the three inspect the harm posed, the education of Native issues, and what’s next for other professional sports teams. Listen to new episodes of Beyond the Scenes hosted by Roy Wood Jr. every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What up. Job Fair. Family. Don't worry. We still have
a new episode coming this week, but I wanted to
bless you a little ahead of time since it's Thanksgiving
with an episode of the other podcast our host, Beyond
the Scenes, where I sat down with the Citizen of
the Pawny Nation and the executive director of Illuminative, Crystal
Eco Howg and the homie Bo Mooney Jones, and we

(00:22):
had a wonderful conversation about racist sports mascots, specifically ones
that focus on Indigenous Americans and the teams that have
changed their mascots to Washington Commanders the Cleveland Guardians. We
spoke a little bit about the harm that is posed
by negative imagery regarding Native Americans and how Americans as

(00:44):
a whole are under educated about Native issues. And if
you like that discussion, go and subscribe to Beyond the Scenes.
If you want to hear me actually sound intelligent. From
time to time I say some smart stuff sometimes check
it out. Hey, I'm Roy Wood Jr. Welcome to Beyond

(01:07):
the Scenes, the podcast that goes a little deeper into
topics and segments that are originally on the Daily Show
with Trevor Noah. Today we are discussing a hot topic.
You know that Super Bowl it's coming up. We are
discussing racist sports team names, especially the ones that are
appropriating Native culture. So you know, the Washington football team

(01:28):
changed their name as something different. So we're gonna break
that down today. I have two guests to help me
do that. The first one, this brother is a friend.
This brother is a friend and I've been a fan
of his work for a long long time. He's a
sports journalist. He has a show coming to HBO a
little later this spring that's gonna focus on the intersection
of sports and race and gender and politics and economics.

(01:50):
The show is called Game Theory. His name is bow
Money Jones Bo. How you doing today, brother good Man?
How are you? You got a little energy and your
tank to talk racism? I know you've We're talking a
lot of black racism. We got they got cracking on
February one. It's gonna be a doozy. Also joining us
today is the founder and executive director of Illuminative. It's

(02:11):
a nonprofit organization that is focused on increasing Native and
Indigenous visibility all across the spectrum, not just sports, but
also entertainment, politics, all of that. She is a citizen
of Pawnee. Crystal Eco Hawk, Crystal Echo Hawk. I said
it right the first time I've got myself. Crystal, how
are you doing today. I'm good, I'm good. I'm glad

(02:32):
to be here with you guys. Thanks, thank you. So
let's just dive right here, and Crystal, I'd love to
start with you. You know, the Washington football team they
changed their name to the Commanders. Um, you know, what
what is your feeling with Let's let's let's just start
right here. The day that you found out that the
Washington football team had decided to just drop the original

(02:53):
name and go, hey, give us a couple of years,
we'll figure it out, but for now, we won't carry
that name anymore. What were your thought some feelings on that.
I mean, it was really emotional, you know. I mean,
you know, everybody kind of remembers back like Dan Snyder saying,
never you know, print that capital letters, underscore this is
never happening. Um. And you know this has been a

(03:15):
fight that's been happening for decades. I mean, starting back
in the early sixties, right Suzanne Hard Joe really was
one of the first person to really put this forward
about you know, the team dropping this dictionary define racial slur.
So that gives you a sense of the arc of
how how long and how many generations have been fighting
this you know, vicious battle. I mean, we were told
by polsters going back in you will never win this

(03:39):
mascot battle. Ever, Americans aren't behind Native people's on this.
And so to see this moment fast forward to July,
the announcement, it was, it was incredibly emotional for for
so many Native peoples across this country. Well, we talk
about ally ship, you know, in that announcement from you know,
Washington Football team owner Dance Snyder came, you know, on

(04:01):
the back side of the Black Lives Matter movement, Beau Money,
how much do you feel like that movement And I
don't want to say helped, but in terms of just
collectively as a country, we just all just put our
foot down and just went, yo, we're not taking this.
And a matter of fact, here's a couple other things

(04:21):
that need to change. A matter of fact, Cleveland, Indians,
y'all change y'all ship too? Can we talk a little
bit boat just about what are some of the ways,
you know, and Christal, I'd love to get an answer
from you after boat on ways that black people can
be supportive of causes like this, or the ways that
one group is able to draft off of another. Well,

(04:42):
the way I think it helped on this one that
I think was interesting with Washington made the decision to
do this, And it was the same thing I felt
about the state flag in Mississippi. We wasn't even really
talking about that right, like, you know, like it just
out of nowhere, the Washington football team just popped up.
It was like, you know what, top or changed, Like really,
after all this kicking and streaming at his footstopping and

(05:03):
everything else, you just popped up and just decided you
were gonna do it. And I think that's something that
happened with those names. With regard to this was a
big part of the refusal to change these names. To me,
it has always been about white people just not letting
nobody tell them what to do. Because it's not as
though the Washington football team changed the name and a
single solitary person whoever said I'll never watch them again

(05:25):
if they change their name. Not a single one of
them stopped, right, They got all kinds of the reason
not to watch that sorry football team, But every time
somebody swears up and down they ain't never gonna go back.
They ain't gonna do anything else with one of these teams.
They changed the name, and the people stay right like
there's nothing to be lost, there's no money to be lost.
They just don't like being told what to do. We've
seen this come up in all these different ways, and

(05:46):
so I think after George Floyd it led to kind
of a broad look for a lot of corporate entities
that a lot of things that they did, and I
also think it was an opportunity for a lot of
those entities to get out in front right, Like you
can make the argument in Mississippi they took the flag
down fall, somebody else did it for and that was
I thought, Yeah. But but that was what I thought
was the most interesting part, because people have really, really,

(06:08):
really been fighting for this for a very long time,
and they just turned a deaf ear to it. And
then one day this dude who swore he'd never do
it under a measure of duress from a number of angles,
just said here's what I'll do. I'll just go ahead
and change. Then they didn't even have no name. That's
how you know they didn't have a plan. They're just like,
all right, I'm gonna change the day. It was like, Prince,

(06:32):
we will be a symbol for a while. And I
approved it. Like that was about like if you were
gonna wait till you got the perfect name, you were
never gonna do it. That was the one thing I
gave him credit for. It's like he's gotta change to
what something else? What about nothing? Something else? Nothing works?
Cool boom changed, Crystal. This has always been an interesting
I would say as a black person growing up in Alabama,

(06:56):
racism is a very insular experience and that you were
focused on your people in your struggling, your fight and
your fight. And it wasn't until I got to Tallahassee
and I went to Florida and m and we will
go over to Florida State to do a little bit
of drinking from time to time, you know what, the
folks over there and we will see members of the
Seminole Nation protesting outside of Dope Campbell Stadium. And that

(07:18):
was really one of the first times, you know, and
you're talking to seventeen year old while I was really
being open to everything else, that there things that I
never thought about, and you know, you know that I
came up in the nineties tomahawk chop all of that nonsense.
And so how can other groups, how can other people
of color that are not part of your community make

(07:39):
sure that we're supportive in a way that doesn't erase
your fight or step in front of your fight, because
that's the thing that black football money know what I'm
talking about. When you go to a black protest, it
would be too many white people. Wait a minute, white lady,
let me let me stand in front of you. Now,
same thing in a Native protest. Right, Well, I mean

(08:01):
I want to go back to something about money said
and like really recognized. I mean, like this, you know
this fight has been going for decades, right, and I
think that's the majority majority Americans just thought this was
because of George Floyd that this happened. No, you know,
decades long, but it was unfortunately his death right. It
just it launched this perfect storm that that it all

(08:21):
of a suddenly, remember the brands, Anthemima, everything started following
and I'll never forget the day on that Blackout Tuesday,
and the team was like, worse, we stand against systemic
racism and it was AOC and then Congresswoman Holland that
called the team out and it just launched a wave
in right then that that simultaneously there was a Native
organization that was started organizing those six billion dollars worth

(08:44):
of investors. Right that came in and started really like
that was the nail in it that you know, Snyder knew,
you know, that's it under duress, right, This was not
that they were willing to do it. So I just
want to like, you know, just it's George Floyd, you know,
on so many levels, and we you know, it's just
has such a special place in our hearts as Native

(09:06):
people's and like ore his family and just like really
thinking about that moment. But I think it just said
this moment where increasingly, I think hopefully as people of color,
were starting to see each other more and about where
our struggles connect, you know, around this, And I think
that was just like the key thing is like really
understanding since more is this conversation about systemic racism and

(09:27):
other in the ways that it's beginning to impact all
of us. And I think it's really been an opportunity
to start to educate you know, lots of allies and
people of color that the R word is the N
word to us, right, And then I think there's like
such a deep psychology in this country about playing Indian
in the conquest like that, even when we shout from
the rooftops, this is racist. We don't want this anymore.

(09:48):
People like you don't even know your own mind. We're
honoring you, like you know, And I watched yesterday with
the Washington announcement. They released a video yesterday they said
the R word probably two dozen times in their new
video announcing the new name, and it was like, really,
this dog whistle, And I just thought, you know what,
what if they had said the N word twenty times
in that same video, nobody would have stood for it.

(10:10):
But yeah, yesterday, you know, it was just showing that
the team, I don't think it is clearly not taking
this seriously. They have not learned their lessons if that
was part of their rollout, and so I think it's
you know, it's frustrating, but I do feel like we've
really begun to make headway and where people are beginning
to really understand this issue and where Native peoples are
coming from. More so to that point, Crystal Beaumani, just

(10:31):
to show how a hit or the curve you've been
on talking about this problem in professional sports. What was
that five six years ago where you wore the Caucasian
shirt April of Yeah, Cleveland's team before they change their
name to the Guardians. You somehow, I don't know where,
you procured a whitewashed face of Cleveland's mascot and you

(10:55):
had on a shirt to head the Cleveland Caucasians, and boy,
they were mad you. So we need to address the
elephant in the room. Your T shirt is dominating the
social media conversation right now amongst our viewers. What motivated
you to wear? It was clean? I think double what
the fact that it was clean was a good start.
The other parts. I really like the shirt. I think

(11:16):
it's funny. It's like it's just like the Cleveland Indian shirt,
Like exactly the same as the Cleveland Indian shirt, but
just one small change. Yeah, that's it. This is the
same thing that goes on with the logo for the
Cleveland Indians, right, So, like to have a problem with
the logo of this would be to have a problem
with the Indians. But if you're quiet about the Indians
and now you've got something to say about my shirt,
I think it's stop for introspection. What point were you

(11:39):
try because you weren't even on the show that day
to talk about baseball. I was all about some other stuff. Yeah,
I wasn't even trying to prove no point though, Like
that's the thing about it that was so interesting to
me because I've had that shirt for a long time,
Like I've worn it in public. Like it wasn't like
I have a shirt this very occasion, right, I was like, Oh,
this shirt's funny. The point to me was obvious, Like

(11:59):
I didn't think I was because people have been saying
these things so long. I didn't think I was offering
anything deep or profound, right, Like I wasn't hitting anybody
with anything that they hadn't heard before. To me, it
was just a funny shirt. That was all it is.
Like I am absolutely not a hero on this because
I did not do the math and realized what it
might turn into when people saw it. And so as

(12:21):
much as we talk about people being mad about it,
kind of right, like I didn't have any problems at work.
Nobody gave The only talk they had with me was like, look,
it's it's the shirt is dominating the show and that's
a problem. So if you could zip your hoodie up
around it, which I thought was a reason, but I
thought that was a reasonable thing to say, Like, if
you're producing a television show and one thing is taken

(12:42):
away from the actual television show, then okay, I've done
this for an hour, right, Like, I get it. I'm
not gonna fight you about it. And so I went
ahead and did that. But it was a lot of people,
rather than saying they were mad, a lot of I'm
not mad. You're not owning me. You thought you were
going to make me mad, but no, no, no, no,
I'm not here man. I'm like, bro, I wouldn't even
think about you. So, like maybe they were mad. But

(13:04):
one thing I felt like I learned in that is
we give too much country to the loudest, angriest people.
Because overwhelmingly what I got in response to that will support,
Like the significant majority the people that I heard back
from like WHOA, this is so cool, WHOA, this is
so cool, WHOA, so thanks for standing like all that

(13:24):
kind of stuff. I think the negative stuff was actually
a minority and probably a small part of it. Like
I think there was actually a bit more popular support
behind this because in the end, people just don't really
care like that that was the problem, is that having
a native mascot, they didn't even give that any thought,
Like to them, it's not an overt oppressive act. It's
just like, oh, we want to make this the name

(13:44):
of our team, and if they didn't do that, they
name it after an animal, And yeah, it's really problematic
that they see those two things as being the same.
But I don't think that Americans have a real passionate
about it, Like this is much more about the kind
of passive racism that exists and that people just left
slide because it's what they've always done. Like football team
in Washington depart that nobody talks about it is they
are historically sorry. Like if you're my age, you remember

(14:06):
when they won those three Super Bowls. But that's basically
the only time they've been good. And they were the
longest segregated franchise in the NFL and subsequently one of
the worst franchise in the NFL for basically up until
like nineteen seventy they had two good coaches. So my
point being, this name is actually attached to far more
losing than it was ever attached to winning. They were

(14:28):
just holding all because they got a bid. They let
anybody else tell them what to do. I wonder what
it would be like, though, if you put that Caucasians
T shirt on right now again because it is next
level now from when the first one you did that
first time to now and where people that guy who
makes those shirts has a picture of me up in
his house, Um, because that show I was on. Yeah,

(14:48):
because that showed that that was on aired it from
six to ten Eastern and so he wakes up at
like seven o'clock or seven thirty and he's like, huh,
let me go see if we got any orders in
over and whoa, and it just completely like and I promised,
I really didn't think that this was going to happen

(15:09):
like that. I was just sitting there blissfully unaware. And
then it was like, oh, this is a thing. So
Crystal Tour Money's point of just how conversations grow and
the ground swell starts. It may have the German nation
may have been one thing, but it blows up into
something else. Talk to us a little bit about illuminative
and what you all do, because this is a much

(15:29):
bigger discussion than sports. When we're talking about discrimination and
the perpetuation of stereotypes against the natives. What does your
company do to fight some of those stereotypes. Just talk
a little bit about Illuminative for yeah, definitely. I mean,
you know, Illuminative is founded on research, right, And I
think it was just you know, I've been an organizer,
activist my whole life, you know, working in Indian Country,

(15:52):
and I think just throughout life and talking to so
many different Native people, like we constantly feel like invisible, right,
We're not showing up anywhere. People aren't taken us seriously,
and if we you know, when we come out on anything,
it's like we're reduced to a character caricature. So we
did this research to really look at, you know, what
are the dominant perceptions and narratives that Americans have about
Native people. Why do they have these perceptions, and how

(16:14):
do they affect the way that Native peoples are treated?
And so what we found is that nearly eight percent
of Americans don't know anything about us, right, And depending
on where you live in the country, there are pockets
of this country that aren't even sure if we exist anymore.
Because if you're not in proximity to a reservation, right,
then you're just in Then we're not representative media. Our
representation and media is less than point four percent. Right

(16:37):
in nine of schools in this country up until very recently,
you know, don't teach about in the Americans past nineteen hundred.
So you literally Americans are almost conditioned right coming out
of K through twelve. And then when if you don't
see us in the media, you don't see us in
TV and film, that we don't we cease to exist
certainly as a contemporary people, right, we exist in the past,

(16:57):
and what little representation that kind of eats it was
typically pre nineteen hundred if it's TV and film, you know,
and people can literally have a very hard time conceiving
of Native people's in a contemporary context. So as we
began to learn that and really unpack that, we realized,
you know, working with a lot of social psychologists and
people looking at certain things, that it affects the way

(17:18):
that we're treated. It really perpetuates discrimination and racism against
Native people to think that we don't exist, we're out
of sight, out of mind, and in the few things
that kind of conditioned to you know, inform the way
people think about us are things like racist sports mascots
like Nielsen did a poll last year of the fans
polled said that the only time they see anything related
to Native people's is if they're watching, you know, one

(17:40):
of these teams with their mascots, right, and that's people
in red face turkey feathers act in a fool that
has nothing to do with really Native cultures and Native people. So,
you know, we realized, you know, with this research that
we have representation truly matters. That is not just a
catch phrase, right, because the way that we show up
and presented, you know, in the world really conditions the

(18:01):
way that we're treated and not just in day to
day life, the way the courts treatis, Congress treats us,
you know, and the way there our children are treated
in school. So really illuminative fights to you know, fights
against systemic racism and fights against the erasure. Right. We
fight against these toxic stereotypes and false narratives, and we
really work to amplify who Native people's are today and

(18:21):
our issues, our points of view and in key spaces
like pop culture and media and also politics. Yeah, like
I'm trying to think bo you know, and granted, this
is an Alabama school System pre CRT Native representation in history,
US Thanksgiving and Cowboys and Indians. And I think after that,

(18:44):
it's just a mystery. What happens to natives after that,
Like there's not much. And then in TV it was
always you're the sidekick or you're the magical Yoda type,
go here and here's some wisdom. Now go forward and
go do the thing you need to do. Yeah, like
the Native homie and the crew. It just doesn't come
up on a lot of television shows, you know what

(19:06):
I mean, like like like and that and that. But
that's the thing that you know, when you talk about
the representation, like you really get to a point on
this stuff. For somebody's just there and that part of
them is not a plot device, you know. It's not
like something we're gonna go to for a joke all
the time. And I think it's one of those things
that's easy for people to not think of. And I
think the point you made, especially depending upon what part

(19:28):
of the country that you live in where you're just
not going to encounter Native people, um, and it could
be what part of like a county that you live in,
Like I think of a place like Paul Beach County
in Florida, for example, that as you're getting towards the beach,
you have no idea that the west side of that
county is a lot more Native than you would have
thought of, right, And the world's kind of don't meet
and don't come together. And that's a significant part I

(19:48):
think of the problem that you have is that it
is very easy to think of Native Americans or Native
people excuse me as just like history because like you
talked about in school, I know, it came up in
our Texas history class and seventh grade, you know, because
they had somebody was here, right like they they ain't
gotten past the point act. Like they showed up and
it was like, wow, look at it, pick it whatever

(20:09):
whatever desk you want, right Like it wasn't one of
those situations, right Like they at least acknowledged that part.
And then you get to trailer of tears, and they're
like done with that. Like when you I willing to
bet that if you ask most people about what they
learned in history, it is the trail of tears is
where it stops. But think about, like metaphorically what that means.
We are saying we got them up out of here,
and there's nothing left to discuss exactly after the break,

(20:34):
I want to talk a little bit more about the
Washington football team and the Cleveland Guardians and what they
got right and wrong in their transitions, and also Christal,
I want to talk to you about some of these
other teams that are still holding it down Dan Snyder
style and saying we ain't never changing racism today, racism tomorrow,
racism forever. I'm not sure if that's how they said it,

(20:57):
but that's basically so. You broke out a George Wallace quote,
bro I would love to see somebody like do a series,
because every Southern state has their George Wallace. It's like
it's a different person and everyone like the one standout racist,
strong right right right Georgia has less thematics. I mean,

(21:19):
hell of a competition in Mississippi. I don't know who
ultimately becomes the chappion in that battle. Royal Texas like
that to Texas, they got one, We got had a role,
rubble it. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back, Crystal.
I'll start with you. How do you feel about the
new name commanders the Army and we're in judge, you know,

(21:45):
the same army that told them Indians didn't get on
out of here. What did they get right? What did
they get wrong? During this supposed two year learning period
and reflection and studying and speaking with members your community. Well,
I have to say, I'm enjoying all the memes. I mean,
it's just been hilarious, like gut laughs, right, people's reactions

(22:08):
to the name. And you know, I'm kind of like
whatever I mean at this point. You know, I think
we were just so focused on the team not having
coming up with a name that had anything to do
with Native people's right. So, I mean, honestly, I could
care less. I mean, that's for the Washington Bands and
everyone else delitigate and laugh at you know, the commandoes.
I mean, everybody was enjoying all the things yesterday. What

(22:31):
did they get right? I mean, I think they definitely
did go talk to Native people, right, like dozens, you know,
a couple dozen Native peoples, And I think they did
focus groups. The team met with us last spring, right, um,
and you know I think that they I felt like
they heard us right, and just kind of people, you know,
and even knowing where some of the options they were
looking at around wolves and different things. I mean, they

(22:52):
really did have some conversations and I felt like they
listened right, just stay away from a bunch of things,
and like, you know, so whatever direction they ended up
with this military thing, I mean, that's the whole next
level discussion. Um, you know, right, I mean, but I
mean I think finally, you know, I can tell you,
up until the last minute, Native peoples were holding their

(23:12):
breasts because we just don't trust them, right, like what
are they going to pull? And um, so I think
we were relieved it had nothing to do with us.
But again, watching the rollout yesterday and seeing that video
I had a former reporter send it to me last night,
like fit to be tied. I mean, it just was
this dog whistle and it was kind of this wink wink,
nudge nudge to the fans around that name. And it's

(23:34):
just like really showed that that, you know, internally that organization,
they still don't get it. They still don't get that
this was like the most disgusting racist term ever in
the harm that they created. And so you know, they're
on my calls today to kind of like, you know,
on the one hand, you're telling Native People's List, But
here's your actions. Again, there's just clearly some things and
that inside that franchise that hid not change. And you know,

(23:57):
and I think that they got a lot more to do.
They haven't appall gize and if you actually look at
so much of the announcement and roll out, there's really
no recognition. Right. They sort of dance around why they
had to actually change the name. It's like, you know
now like oh, we wanted to do this almost right
and kind of embracing it. And I think you look
at all the Native leaders commenting yesterday saying this is

(24:20):
not enough. Where's our apology? Where's the apology to the
activists that they harassed and targeted like Susanne Hardjoe and
Amanda black Horse, Right, I mean disgusting, really vile, vicious
behavior that you know, they were like death threats against
some of these activists, you know, and what are they
going to do that ninety years of racism that they perpetuated,
like overnight everything's okay? No, And I think that's where

(24:42):
you know, Native People's Indian Country is like we're going
to still work to hold this team accountable. Well, I
think in line with that, I think that there's something
fundamental to like this team has historically believed. And this
goes back to the nineteen fifties and sixties with their segregation,
they have historically believed, eaved that their fans like a

(25:02):
little racism, right, Like the argument against integrating the team
for George Preston Marshall was that our fans don't want
black players on our team. Right. They have made this guess, right,
And I always wondered anybody who say they never watched
that team again, Uh, if they ever had black people,
then I think it's seventeen years later Doug Williams wins

(25:22):
the Super Bowl with them, and I bet they were
all sitting there watching. But they operate on this assumption
that people like this, like they believe that their fans
think this is all better with the little racism. Again,
it's short seems that whenever they change these things, the
world keeps on spinning and nobody does anything. And so
I've always wondered, like, when they decided they're gonna come
up with a new name of what they were going
to do, if they did, in part feel like they

(25:44):
had to give a little nudge to be like, don't
worry we're still We're still with you, right, Like fundamentally
the audience for them is white people, and I feel
like race so often in this country, as is discussed
by white people between white people, it's just kind of
something to talk about, Like, you know, you root for
this team. I root for this team, and in the
end we go home and we're all still friends. We
just root for different teams because it don't mean the

(26:05):
same thing to them, Like ultimately, when it comes down
to it, it's not it doesn't have the same gravity.
It's not as serious, you know, when it comes in.
And so that to me, I thought was a huge
part of the Washington story that gets lost is a
lot of this is on Snyder, as it was on
Cook before him, as it was on the Marshal's before them.
But at some point, as fans, you gotta stand up

(26:25):
and just kind of be like, yo, why do y'all
think we saw racist? Or just say that you are?
But they definitely think that you are. And if I
say somebody these people being racist, everybody want to call
March about it. These teams tell you that they think
you're racist, and you're like a little bit, maybe was
there the same feeling crystal of insincere sincerity from the
Cleveland Guardians when they changed their name, because they got

(26:47):
roasted too, because everybody's like gout and name the team
after two statues that look over the traffic kind of
smelt like they didn't have a play in either. Bo Um.
You know, I mean, I think they had a really
different process, right, you know, again, I think then to Washington,
I mean again, you know, it's a whole other thing.

(27:09):
I mean I think you know, for the for the
for Native people's, particularly people living in a Cleveland area.
I mean, it was just a long, hard fought battle
and they were just relieved again, you know, to finally
that the name was getting away from it. Um. But
it was a much more closed process. Um. You know.
But I mean I just think there's it's just not
the same level of vitriol, right and just I mean,

(27:29):
they were never as nasty as the Washington team and
their leadership, right, So I think it's just, you know,
it's kind of looked at in a different way. I
don't think with the same kind of distrust. And you know,
and I think today looking you know, reading through all
the social media around Indian country, people are pissed at
the team, you know, I mean, even though we're relieved,
it's just still like so evident that I don't think

(27:51):
that they've really learned. And why do you put it right?
I mean, it's that's their legacy. And if you watch
the video, their legacy is nothing but showing the R word,
and that is I mean, it was really like, wow,
it was a wink wink, you know, non to that,
and it's just it's, you know, the NFL outs we
know has a little bit of a racism problem. And

(28:12):
there's the understatement because I'm curious about this with Cleveland
because to me, you know, I'm speaking from obviously a
bit of a comfortable distance, and like when I hear Indian,
I hear Indian, like I hear colored right, like it's
an antiquity that's born in a bunch of stuff, but
not a slur in the same way as we talk
about these other things. The thing with me with them
was always wah Who, which, by the way, they had

(28:33):
If you don't know they have evolved, there's been various
forms of way Who. This form of wah Who that
the last one of Chief wa Who. The mascot they
had is actually progressively less offensive than like the two
or three InCAR nations that had come up previous, like
they had held onto that was always the one where
I'm like, you got this thing on the head, you
can't do that, like like that was always the most Yeah,

(28:56):
I was always the most indefensible part. And then that
last year when they looked like they might almost went
the World Series, they had one of the old timers
from the ninety eight World Series team come back and
he had one of the antiquated Cleveland chief wah who,
And I was floored. It was the mascot as much
as anything else that they held on people like, look,
can you move off from this? Look? Can you move
off from this? Can you move off from this? And

(29:16):
at points teams it seemed at points that there would
be times the leadership was like, Yeah, we can do this.
They gonna sell new stuff. They were just so afraid
of these angry fans and what in the world are
these fans gonna do? And I'm like, do you know
anything about Cleveland sports fans? Do you see the losers?
They have attached themselves too for decades and you think
they gonna quit you over this? Are you serious? But

(29:39):
they just refused to let go with that part, and
that to me was just it was just always so
striking that nothing was quite like that. Because I feel like,
and I could be wrong here, but I feel like
the best way to get people to not pay that
much attention to your native mascot is if your uniforms
are attractive. So the Chicago black Hawks managed to dodge

(30:01):
this in a bit of a unique way. They have
very striking jerseys. Like I'm not saying that they are
not problematic, I'm saying visually they are striking. The Braids
have had those uniforms that they've been wearing now since seven.
You can't think of very many teams that have had
uniforms the same without any fundamental change to them that long.
Like they found a design and they stuck with it.
The Chiefs same way somehow. I granted, their names are

(30:24):
a little different. It's not you know, it's not the
same as the R word and all of these things.
But those are the ones that get to skate. If
we don't think your gear is hot, we're telling you
that you've gotta get this stuff out of here, you know,
I think that's part of it, right, But I mean,
just one point I want to make, Like I think
a lot of times, what people don't understand, and I'm
glad you bring this up, is it's not always about
the name, right. I mean, like the R word, that's

(30:46):
like that was the next level. Right. People are like chiefs, braves,
like black hawks. Come on. What's Native people's problems here?
And it is it's about the imagery, right, But it's
also about the racist sports fan behavior that starts spending
out from it. The red face right, red faces the
equivalent to black face, right, the turkey feathers, the drum,
the tomahawk chop, all these things that mimic and mock

(31:09):
Native people that has nothing to do with anything related
to traditional Native culture. So it's really this ecosystem that
radiates out, even from a name that might not on
face value, look like it's offensive. It's it's every it's
everyone the culture that radiates out, or the way that
rival fans will use hate speech right when they're cheering
against those teams, that ends up being hate racist speech

(31:29):
against Native Americans. And Chris, I'll tell you something I
didn't know. I did not realize until very recently that
like sports teams that are the Warriors that that was
basically a euphemism for previous Native names, Like I was
on a literal league team when I was nine years
old that was called Warriors, and he hit me one
day it was navy blue with red letters across. We
were the Cleveland Indians. I had no idea the Golden

(31:50):
State Warriors in basketball. I had no idea this one.
They were selling the old gear on the website and
I looked at it and you would be shocked if
you looked what it was like. It was just terribly
savage Native imagery, um from like the nineteen fifties. I
had no idea that this that they ever had this
error because I did not think of Warriors in that way.
And what was so funny about it was my producer

(32:13):
on my podcast pointed it out to me, and I said, wow.
We talked about it on the podcast and sent a
link out. Right after you talk to me about it,
I sent a link out on Twitter that was like, wow,
I had no idea of this. Within I want to
say a half hour, it was down from the NBA store,
like nobody had noticed it was. It was just literally

(32:33):
nobody noticed it was there. And I was the one
person to being like, yo, this is bananas, and then
we the link was gone, like they might still sell
some of that stuff, but right fast that link was
gone because they had just been skating and I had
no clue that that was where all the st So
then that brings me to this last question before we
go to the break. Where does economics fit into this

(32:54):
resistance to change both because a lot of teams don't
want to change because they think that the fans are
gonna be angry. Like right now, the chiefs are starting
to get a little bit of pressure, and they said, like,
I think, like back we were meeting with members of
that community and we are trying to make sure and
figure out a way and we are not racist. Just
give us a little time to figure it out. But

(33:17):
they hadn't been anything since any of those conversations. How
much does the economic model of sports play into these
teams believing that if they change, the fans will leave
and we's gonna be broke. Yeah, I don't think it's economics.
I think it's just white supremacy, to be perfectly honest,
like all the things that the NFL expects us to
put up with at every turn, and they think that's

(33:39):
gonna be the one to make people suddenly stop coming
to watch these games. But I make no sense, right
Like they if they have told us over and over
again that they believe that no matter what we do,
don't you worry people gonna show up. As long as
you're saying the stars bank of Battle before the game
and shows a lood of the military, um, then people
are gonna come to the games. So they don't think
really that this is gonna stop. They might be mad
for a little while, but they got no problem. One

(34:00):
things that made people mad economically my thought, and this
is clear unless you are like the Green Bay Packers
or the Dallas Cowboys, and you have this brand that
is just immutable and so strong that if you change it,
it really like fundamentally alters the experience that people have
with Yeah, Like if you want of those otherwise, you've
just changed the name and sell most stuff and get

(34:22):
more bread and then bring the other stuff back into
the throatback if you want to, and figure out some
way to do that. Like I've always thought that the
economics would encourage a change in this, and now I
just think that they ain't about to let nobody tell
them what to do. And what I thought was the
most instructive thing about the period after George Floyd. Look

(34:43):
how much work we got done when we stopped caring
about mad people. Right, it was a month and change
where you didn't worry about if it made wife holes mad,
and we got a lot done. And they didn't even
actually get that mad. I mean that was January six,
but over the net didn't didn't get mad or right.

(35:05):
Maybe they was right and there wasn't no place else
for them to go, but they but they laid low
for for the summer of twit twity. We was body
and they was like, let let let them get it out.
Stoom Christ. Why do fans hold onto this? Why isn't
there something else that they could find us less racist?

(35:26):
That represents their town? What does it say about people
when they have an inability to just let go of
something like in Cleveland, they're still artists that sell chief
wa who stuff they I'm painting what I want to paint.
You ain't gonna tell me what to do? What does
that say about our society When people think that the
identity of the team belongs to them and not to

(35:46):
your people. I mean, it just goes to show how
like again going back into the psychology of this country
and like the deep like master meta narratives that are
around this. It's like there's something about playing Native. It's
just such like it feels like an entitlement and a right,
and it's like it's about anything goes. It doesn't matter
what Native people say we do. You can come take

(36:08):
our land, you can take our culture, you can take
our women, you can take everything. And that is like
a deeply embedded part of this nationalistic identity and white supremacy.
It is. I mean, so when you talk to any
activist Native activists that is working on these issues, at
some point you have received death threats, You've received threats
of violence, and it's just like, what this is a

(36:28):
damn sports team. This is like seriously, you're getting like
I got a threat this morning on Instagram and it's like,
what is it about this dude in Kansas that he's like,
you know, losing his mind about this name change? And
I think it really speaks to the heart of white supremacy,
this white nationalist identity that unfortunately it's just getting fed
and and really getting bigger and bigger and it's just um,

(36:50):
you know, it's it's stunning to me, right, but it is.
It's a deep psychology of white supremacy, of which has
a lot to do about conquering Native people's and taking um.
That is just you know, it's it's what we're fighting
against constantly. After the break, Crystal, I want to talk
with you more about your research and the things that
you all have planned for the future and around the

(37:12):
corner and bo money, Um, I want to talk with
you a little bit about the same thing, because you know,
you have for a long time, on a number of
various platforms, been trying to wield that sledge ham of justice,
and you already did. I didn't even know that story.
I didn't know you cut off somebody's money on the
NBA dot com merch store. So I know that there's

(37:34):
a lot that you have to do as a member
of the media and bringing these topics to light. And
I think that YouTube there is a synergy there, and
I want to talk about what that struggle is will
wrap up on the other side of the break, This
is beyond the scenes. We have had a very spirited
conversation about Native imagery and professional sports. Crystal is here,

(37:55):
and her company is illuminative, and your company that a
lot of you use. You do what people need not
because it's not enough to just go something racist. You
got to have data. You've got to have numbers, you've
got to have statistics, because then people go, Okay, now
you tell innutric See I didn't believe you before from
just being a member of that community. You got data.

(38:17):
Talk to us a little bit about the future of
your company and how you all are measuring. How do
you measure what's wrong and then how do you measure
when you think it's changing? You know, what's the future
look like for your company? Yeah? Well, I mean I
think when we think about the future of Eliminated, we're
just thinking about the future of our Native people's right.
It's about how we're building power through representations. So you know,
despite everything that we've talked about about Washington, right, that's

(38:40):
a victory for Native peoples at the end of the day,
right as we start knocking these things down. But at
the same time, like so much of the work that
we have done is really to advocate, for example, in
entertainment and media, right about the need for more Native
stories and TV and film more representation across all facets
of of media, and so that's a really big focal

(39:01):
point of our organizing our advocacy, both like very outward
facing UM, but also behind the scenes, right, doing a
lot of work inside the industry and really forging partnerships
with studios so that we can see, you know, last
year we had our first to ever Native American television shows.
It's crazy it took this long to kind of hit
that mark, um, but they and they were huge successes, right,

(39:23):
So really looking at how we get more of those
you know, stories made and working with studios in that way.
I mean, I think it's also a lot of advocacy
across all facets of media. Right, we still don't have
any Native American commentators on any of the major you know,
cable networks, you know, major media outlets. So it's really
again looking at that advocacy and creating opportunities, you know,

(39:43):
for Native people's Native voices, UM in Native stories, so
that more people can see us and hear us and
understand that Native people have a lot to say. We're
doing a lot, we are contributing a lot, UM and
it's really shifting that narrative so that you know, Americans
can really see who we are today and and the
ways that we're leading and innovating across this country. What

(40:05):
I what I love about shows like Rutherford Falls and
Reservation Dogs, which are I'm just those are the two
shows that we're talking about, is that it doesn't it's
just people existing and there's a plot and there's a story,
and it's within the world that you may or may
not know something about, but it doesn't come across this
This is our story and it's time that you know

(40:27):
exactly what and it's it's beautiful because it's an easier
entry point for people to absorb stuff that they might reject. Because,
let's be real, when you're trying to inform ignorant people,
you've got a high divide them into dog food, which bomani.
That's something that you are very often, very able to
do that. The Caucasian shirt is a perfect example of that. Like,

(40:48):
you didn't come on to take a stand. I'm just
I'm just wanting a shirt. I thought this was funny.
It's irony. But everybody knows about this, right, you know
what happened. Right, So, when you approach racial injustice in sports,
not in sports but as a sports as primarily a
sports journalist, though I think HBO gonforce you got that
box a little bit and let you start diving that.
I mean, I've been I've been out that thing for

(41:10):
like twenty but I feel you. How do you how
do you approach covering racial justice in sports? Let's just
keep in sports since that's with this episode is well,
I don't think I have a strategy as much as
the one thing I know is just don't make it personal.
You'd be amazed the wide birth that you receive if
you don't make it personal, right, Like that's once once

(41:33):
you start and and part of why I'm not inclined
to make it but so personal is you actually, in
many cases minimize the overall point when you make it personal.
Because there are individuals that exists who certainly are racist,
there's no question about that. Once you start focusing on
whether or not or calling that person races, the discussion
then becomes whether or not that person is racist, and

(41:54):
that term racist is used by different people in different ways.
There's like a very basic word that you can use.
But see, once you start talking about it as it
evolves individuals, then you start getting a standard that is
beyond even a reasonable doubt, right, Like people gonna require
you to prove that to the ninety nine percent of
confidence on that, and everything you say then ultimately winds

(42:14):
up being derailed. Our biggest problem is not individuals. Our
biggest problems systems. Our biggest problem are the things that
happened that you can't just point a finger at one
person and say, hey, he's the one who did this.
So for me talking about systems and the things there,
that isn't difficult, and it's not hard to get the room,
you know, for people to be willing to listen, Like
I find the people whore willing to listen to me
go kind of hard, which is a bit surprising, but

(42:37):
I think the reason is you just kind of got it.
Like for me, my brother told me something very early
on in my career that has guided me, and he
was like, a good argument is not one that a
genius cannot refute. It is one a fool cannot refute.
So I am going to talk to you right where
you are. I'm gonna come to directly where you are,
and as direct a fashion as possible, as polite a

(42:59):
fashion as possible also, but its direct fashion as possible,
and then dare you to tell me to show me?
Show me a lot? And by large, people have like
been willing. I have been surprised over the course of
the last twenty years how much listening to me people
are willing to do on these matters. Some of them
are lost causes, you know, but you can't worry about them.
And I think that's the biggest part of it. The
people you ain't never go win over the people you

(43:20):
can be concerned with. So as we wrap up here,
Crystal and we look ahead, there are a lot of
franchises that for the time being, seem inclined to keep
their problematic names. Are there things that the casual sports
fan what can we do to help bring light to this?

(43:41):
And I'm talking bigger than just black people and other
communities of color. I'm just talking about if I'm a
fan of the Braves or the Chicago black Hawks, what
can I do as a casual fan to try and
bring light to these types of injustices. I mean, one,
lean in and get educated, right because I think what
we find. You know, I'm going back to my original statistic,

(44:04):
eight percent of people know very little about Native Americans.
So one it's just we see that there's still a
lot of education and to understand why these things are harmful,
and it's not always just the name, it's all the
things associated with it. And then I think making our
voices heard. And I'll tell you this, you know, this
last you know, World Series, I was stunned by how
many sports reporters actually we're like, oh, we get this now,

(44:25):
and started really challenging the team and its ownership and
the MLB commissioner. Like it was a it was a
new dawn this last this last round in terms of
coverage and the level of conversation you know about the
history of Indian removal, you know, and in genocide and
and you know Georgia and all the things like it
really kind of brought it in. So I think people,
you know, social media is a powerful tool, and when

(44:47):
people start turning up the volume, move lean in and
start making your voices heard. The teams are tracking this stuff, right,
and to really be part and parcel of joining that movement,
because that's how we started getting it done with Washington
and these other ones, right, the felt the pressure. So
it's just really people getting educated, it's engaging in those
conversations with your friends and your family, and then really

(45:07):
being a part of turning up the volume and putting
the pressure on these teams to make the change. And
I think the World Series is a perfect storm too.
It helps that the commissioner of Major League Baseball Cornell
degree or not, does not appear to be the brightest
man in the world because they took that work, that
they took that All Star Game out of Atlanta because
of the voting rights stuff that was going on there.

(45:28):
And then when he got asked about that team name,
he basically pulled the States rights argument and said that
this is a local matter and not something for us
to discuss. And we all like, so was that voting
rights bill, Hollmey, But you packed up and moved because
Delta and all of them told you were not on
board with this, and then you left. The hypocrisy was
laid so Baar at that point that I think it

(45:50):
did bring on a whole new challenge and I hope
something that people learned from that one. Also, he is
never believe the natives that the team tells you speak
for every other native, like Dan Snyder had his on
call natives whenever something with popas just about to ask
television and the Braves got their on call natives and

(46:12):
they have a casino deal with them, right, because the
Braves are corporate, yeah right, and so like if they
are like, no, no, come listen to them. If they not, like,
go listen to all of them, they're like, no, listen
to these ones right here standing next to me. It's
probably a cod to have a black friend, and this
is my native friend. Yes, yes, exactly exactly. Speed from

(46:37):
Eastern man got put on the blast across Indian country
for what he pulled down there. I saw a man
the black horse once. I think I was on outside
of the love I don't. I don't know if I
was on, I was not on. I may have just
been watching. But she was always some whoever Daniel Snyder's
on call native was at that time and just flat
out asked him are you being paid for this? Which
I don't recall him answering, what's that conversation? Like internally,

(47:02):
I know black folks, we normally don't get into it
publicly because we call it family business. But what is
that internal strife? Is there a lot of that strife
within the native community of like hey could you shut
the hell up. We're trying to get the name changed
over here. Oh. I mean you know this time with
what happened at the series, and I mean he got
put on blast publicly, the tribe did, and I was

(47:25):
I mean, like I think there was a statement came
out of National Congress American Indians saying things like Natives
for higher I mean, the people gloves came off because
it was so crazy that a tribe in the neighboring
states said no, no, no, this is we're going to
sign off on this. It's not The tomahawk chop is
not traditional to Eastern band Cherokee or anybody else. This
is an invention of Hollywood, right, and people's fantasies of

(47:48):
playing native. So I think this is really people put
the tribe Eastern ben Cherokee and whatever the smattering of
natives that they found in the Atlanta area that you
do not get to make that decision are all of
us and for our kids. Um and so people are
people are over it. And I can tell you like
more and more, especially if these younger generations of Natives

(48:08):
are coming up, they're done. They're done with these mascots
and stuff. It's very generational. The older generationals where you know,
my my dad, and my grandparents and everybody above were
cool with it. These younger generations they're done, and so
that's that's the shift. Well. I wish that we had
more time to really dig into this, but I feel
like we've got a lot accomplished today. I cannot thank

(48:30):
you all enough for going beyond the scenes with me,
but Money Jones the show is Game Theory and that's
premiering on HBO later this spring, maybe early summer. I
do not know your production schedule, but I do know
it is coming very very soon. And Krista Eco Hawk,
thank you so much. Thank you for all the work
that you're doing with Illuminative as well to bring about

(48:52):
change in this country and the elimination of the tomahawk
chop as well. Thank you all for going beyond the
scenes with you. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the
Scenes on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or
wherever you get your podcasts.