Episode 7: The Mohawk Civil War

Derek’s constitutional challenge becomes a controversial issue in the Mohawk Nation. The tobacco trade has always been a hot button issue, and in the 1980s, it led to a full fledged civil war in one Mohawk territory. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Campsite media. How's it going, How are you right? Very
nice to meet. I don't usually get black jeeves with
men I just met, but I'm not gay. But ten
bucks is ten bucks right. Looks like we're off to
a good start already, so you want to see my reservation.

(00:23):
Earlier this year, I drove up to upstate New York
to meet a man we're calling Danny. He's a retired
New York State Police officer who agreed to show me
around the aguasas Name Mohawk Territory. He has to be
anonymous because he still investigates and testifies on cases in
the area. Should we get rolled? Absolutely sounds good. Danny's

(00:43):
a longtime trooper who spent twelve years working in this
part of New York, just by the Canadian border, and
back in the day, a big part of Danny's job
was patrolling the Aguasasna Territory. They called it res duty.
What was the reaction of most Brickey cops that had
their first year on resduded uh deer in the headlights

(01:06):
when we first take them take them down there, They
just they couldn't believe. They go, well, can they do that?
And we'd go. Yeah, yeah, there is For those cops.
Res duty felt like frat house hazy, but Daddy loved it.
Early eighties to late eighties, it was It was the

(01:28):
wild West. It was nothing back then to have yes
pursuits in a night and you're doing a D D
and ten and the car you're pursuing is throwing beer
bottles at you. And it wasn't their first rodeo. They

(01:49):
don't throw them straight back, no, no, no, they throw
them up in the air so they land in front
of you. But yeah, lost a few windshields. But it
was just a crazy time, crazy time. Someone nicknamed him
res Rockets because their cars went fucking fly. Aside from

(02:17):
car chases and beer bottles, this was a turbulent time
in Agrasasna. Angry residents who believed that the Native police
were siding with the federal government demanded that the police
disband and leave the reservation, and in the years that followed,
that security void was filled by folks who had money
and more importantly, had weapons. What would this entrance have

(02:38):
looked like thirty years ago, blocked with tires stack five
or six deep, ten high. At night, they'd have bonfires
and they're all standing around it, the natives with their
faces covered with masks, carrying assault weapons, shotguns, and they

(02:59):
had actual shifts that people were assigned to roadblocks, and
they had roving patrols. Danny isn't native and he's a
law enforcement officer, so he doesn't really provide the definitive
perspective of agassn but the picture he paints to the
place is compelling themtheless and shows just how tense things
were back then. He was forced to work undercover because

(03:21):
of the hostility that state police faced. I mean, we
didn't have, you know, the fancy lighting the spoiled punks
have today. He had fucking burn barrels, and it was
he was medieval here. You go up to the burn
barrels and you got guys standing there with cowboy hats
and shotguns and spoken big cigars, And do you feel

(03:41):
like you're in a movie? Back then? It could have been.
It apps to fucking lutly could have been if that
movie ever got made. There's no doubt what the opening
shots would be. A gigantic warehouse looking building on the
corner of the main road here in Aguasas. Today it's
totally abandoned and boarded up. But thirty years ago this

(04:02):
was a casino and in the summer it was the
scene of one of the most dramatic events of Aguasas's history.
The casino was full of gamblers and security guards, the
parking lot was full of protesters who wanted to shut
it all down, and a cavalry of police cars were
on their way. It was a classic Mexican standoff. And

(04:24):
when we got to the casino, there's probably troop cars,
probably troopers, officers, investigators. We were met with two Maudus
fifty caliber machine guns on the roof of that casino.

(04:49):
From Campside Media and Dan Patrick Productions, this is running smoke.
Yeah right, I'm rogi Gola and this is episode seven

(05:16):
Civil War. When Derek turned himself into the police, he
knew then and there that he was going to fight
this case all the way to the end. Whether it
was bankruptcy, jail time, or victory. Derek was all in
and now he was appealing his case on a constitutional basis.
This was the first time a tobacco case had come
this far. In every other instance, the case would languish

(05:37):
and appeals for years before being dismissed by a judge.
It seemed like Canada wasn't interested in addressing the issue
head on, But this time was different. The judge had
agreed to hear the case and the stage was set
for a landmark decision. But it's exactly because the stakes
were so high that the Mohawk Nation had asked Derek
and Hunter to drop their case. The risk of losing

(05:58):
was too great and they'd ready seen what could happen
when things went wrong. They were concerned that we're using
these agreements that were made as a defense, which is
true Hunter Montur Derek's co accused, and they were worried
that if we lose that it's going to affect the
Mohawk Nation. I said, well, what the hell's the point

(06:19):
of having these tools if we can't use them, when
are you going to use them? Well, there's another time
for this, when this is the time. Right now is
the time. So don't be dumbass. Oh well, we know
we shouldn't do this right now. You should just roll
over and take it. Not me. I have every right

(06:42):
to use these laws or whatever you want to however
you want to phrase it, agreements that were made that
are binding. So why can't I use this to defend myself.
If I can't use it, what the hell good is it?
And are you going to use it? I don't see
any of you fighting for land or or or pushing

(07:06):
for more rights. I don't see it. I've dedicated myself
to whatever I could to help our nation, and I
should be able to use my what I'm fighting for
to help myself to get out of whatever. It is.
Stupid ass predicament I'm in. That's what we do this

(07:29):
for them and c C is basically stating that I'm
using my rights because of a criminal activity. What is
not criminal in activity? In the eyes of the government,
it's criminal activity. But for us here, it's just our
our how do you put it, It's what we've grown

(07:51):
up to to do. I mean there's not much left.
I mean they stole all our land. Um, they have
highways coming truer reserve at all ends. I mean we
have to benefit from it somehow. I mean we have
the gas stations and we have secrets. So that's what

(08:14):
they get for stealing our land. The question at the
heart of Derek's case boiled down to this, the rights
belong to an individual or do they belong to a community.
Derek argued that the rights belonged to individuals. Mohawk's had
a right to trade tax free, and he had just
as much claim to that right as any other Mohawk.

(08:34):
But the Council of Chiefs, well, they believed that right
belonged to the community and community institutions. The way they
saw it, Derek had done his business without the permission
of the Mohawk government, so it wasn't appropriate for him
to claim Mohawk rights now that he was in trouble.
It's a debate over what sovereignty actually means, and it's
one that nearly tore apart one Mohawk territory decades ago.

(08:57):
To understand why it's such a difficult question, we have
to go back to the nineteen seventies, to the birth
of the modern Native rights movement. We'll get into all
that right after the break. This was the era when
groups like a I AM, the American Indian Movement but

(09:19):
Native rights on the map and staged radical protests like
reclaiming Wounded need from corrupt leaders. Either we forced the
federal government to kill us all, or else they come
out and they negotiate and meet our demands. They occupied
Alcatraz and demanded its return to Native people. They d
a learning in peaceful Their sub fishermen's wre was shattered

(09:42):
suddenly by the ridic mean of Indian timetowns, and they
even took over the Bureau of Indian Affairs in d C.
After a cross country march they called the Trail of
Broken Treaties. The Indians came from everywhere, and they came
with a purpose. By the time we start doing something,
I think this is a test to see how the
government can uphold the law. Native Americans were developing a

(10:03):
radical political consciousness, and sovereignty became the political project of
the moment. Sovereignty meant writing your own rules, standing on
your own two feet, and not letting anyone else tell
you otherwise. An important part of that fight for self
determination was economic, but not everyone agreed on exactly how
to build up that economy. It became an especially contentious

(10:23):
issue once some Native community started experimenting with gambling and
tax free tobacco. It was a sort of legal gray
area that would soon become a battleground. Doug George Canendio
is a prominent Mohawk journalist and advocate who lives outside
of Agua Sas. Back in the day, he reported on
how these new ideas were changing his community. I was
involved with this issue when it first came to our

(10:45):
attention in n when individuals from our sister community of
Gonawaga approached us and ask they could secure a license
to transport tobacco products across the international border. And they
wanted to do this in order to form a new economy, UM,

(11:05):
to introduce wealth and to our our communities. Tobacco was
risk free, had high profit margins and a constant demand.
It seemed like a golden ticket. But Doug George and
the Traditional Leadership Council he sat on weren't fully convinced
that council was concerned at tobacco, Uh, something that's extremely

(11:29):
sacred to the Mohawk people should become a commodity. Uh.
And they knew that there would be serious ramifications. You know.
Our elders told us, they warned us, don't do this,
and we thought we could control it. We were wrong.
Pretty quickly, the tobacco industry swept through the Mohawk territories.

(11:51):
Before the Nation Council could make a decision. The handful
of the Native entrepreneurs who got into the cigarette game
early on, became massively wealthy in a short amount of time,
and Doug George was afraid of the implications of that
sort of wealth gap. Unless we had firm control of this,
these individuals, we're going to grow very powerful. They were
going to do something that was fairly alien to our

(12:13):
Mohawk way of life, in that they were going to
create a handful of very rich people who are then
going to turn around and use their wealth to manipulate
the community, Uh, towards our own ends. Ours is not
a community that is given to capitalism. You know. We
were a people who develop a system by which all

(12:34):
of us could prosper, and we were adamantly opposed to
the rise of a wealthy elite who would then dictate
how that society would be to the rest of us.
That that's something that is so alien to to Mohawk tradition.
Tobacco money started pouring into other lucrative gray markets like

(12:54):
casinos and Bengo halls, even though gambling was illegal elsewhere
in Canada and the West. The smugglers and casino owners
claimed that the reserves were sovereign territory. Federal laws didn't apply.
Tobacco and gambling were controversial issues within the territory, but
they were symbols for an even bigger set of questions.

(13:14):
These people are using that and saying, I am sovereign,
therefore I got a right to do what every what
I want on my sovereign territory. While it's not your territory.
You aren't sovereign, You're not Sovereignty belongs to the collective.
And we fought great battles, as as Mohawks and as
natives to in order to secure a certain level of

(13:39):
self control and self determination. But these guys are undermining that.
They espoused all of this rhetoric about helping the nation
and the people and you know, upholding traditional values, but
they were destroying the very thing that they were claiming
to try to strengthen. You know, they were destroying the

(14:02):
idea of of a stable central government. They were undermining
the authority of traditional law. They were violating um our
customs and our culture. This was the battleground on which
the Mohawks Civil War would play out. Anti tobacco and
anti gambling advocates on one side trying to preserve their

(14:25):
traditions against an influx of money earned off of vice
and exploitation. These were known as the antis. On the
other side were the casino and tobacco supporters, tired of
playing by the old rules. Gambling and cigarettes offered a
way out, offered a way to build an economy. Why
should they sit out while everyone else moves ahead? How

(14:49):
did the antis see rights differently than you see rights?
They don't mind being in the arm pit up the
United States government. Lauren Thompson was a traditional leader in
Agrasas back in the nineteen eighties. He had a reputation
as a fierce and wily defender who would take radical
action to protect the community. Once, when laggers tried to

(15:10):
cut down trees to establish a border around agass Lauren
confiscated their machinery and kicked off a month's long standoff
with government officials. Lauren believed that tobacco and gambling offered
massive potential for Mohawks to lift themselves up. Sure it
wasn't exactly clean or noble money, but he felt that
was a reasonable cost to achieve true economic independence. He

(15:33):
clashed with others in the community and ultimately lost his
leadership position for trying to bring a casino to the reserve.
He felt that the antis were holding the community back.
They don't mind their treaties being secondary Trudeau United States
law and court decisions. They do mind that. In other words,

(15:57):
they accept being American citizens. Okay, where's the the hardcore
traditional people will stand up and fight for the rights
in their own land, just as the settlers was stand up,
grab a gun and fight for their freedom. Say that's

(16:20):
how we fight. We we stand as equals to the
government of the United States, the people of the United States.
But it created a problem because there was so much
money being made that a lot of the community wanted
a part of it because they were starting to say,

(16:41):
you're using my rights to do this right. So so
there was all kinds of conversations going on at that time,
and that were created a different of opinion all over
the place and from there and it just kept growing.
And then all of a sudden was um uh protests

(17:03):
from the Longhouse people. People we thought we were on
that were on our side. So they did the protests
and then they came to the point where they shut
off they closed off the toll gate where the buses
were coming through, so that put a halt tool the
major part of the casino going on when they were

(17:33):
right back, you're listening to running smoke left. By the
late nineties, tensions between the antis and the tobacco gambling
crowd were growing intense. Cigarettes were coming in by the
semi truck load, and streets were backed up with tour
buses full of Americans and Canadians coming into gamble at

(17:56):
the casinos. Money was flowing into the reserve like never before.
Buildings were going up, roads were being paved, and smoke
shacks were popping up like mushrooms after a rain. And
just as Doug George had predicted, a new class of
wealthy elites was turning the old way of life in
Aguas upside down. The casinos had become incredibly contentious on
the reservation, and Tony's Vegas International was at the center

(18:19):
of the debate. There was a federal ban on gambling,
but the owner of the casino, Tony Laughing, said that
didn't apply in aguasas it was his right as a
Mohawks citizen. State police beg to differ. What ignited really
the issue in ninety was Tony was running an illegal

(18:40):
casino out of there. At the time in New York State.
It was illegal run I illegal casino, go figure. So
we had undercover officers go into the casino and he
had I don't know, a hundred D slot machines. Well

(19:01):
that was illegal. So state police put a detail together
to raid the casino and somehow the Natives were apprized
of the oncoming rate armed mohawks and casino security were
standing by ready to defend the casino. We were met

(19:23):
with two Maudus fifty caliber machine guns on the roof
of that casino. That's an impressive site when you're sitting
there with a magnum and at twelve game jack. So
discretion being the better part of valor, we left and
as soon as we left, that's when the roadblocks went

(19:47):
up and the fun really started. Once the police left
the scene, anti gambling protesters realized that they were on
their own, and in the spring of they decided to
fight this battled themselves. A group of people said enough
and they decided that they were going to stop a
lot of these uh large buses that were coming onto

(20:08):
reservation every day and to patronize at casinos. And so
they formed a roadblock and they said, holy cal that
they had actually done this in the people had their roadblocks.
We were well aware that they did this at high risk.
That risk came from the fact that at the time
there were no state or Mohawk cops operating on the reserve.

(20:29):
They'd been kicked out years earlier in a different set
of protests. The only policing force in Agusas now was
the Mohawks Sovereignty Security Force, otherwise known as the Mohawk Warriors.
The Warrior Society had been around for decades, and in
the early days it was simply a revival of older customs.
It was a society for young men who wanted to

(20:50):
fulfill traditional roles. Their symbol was the flag of a
Mohawk Warrior head on a red background. It was the
same flag that Derek had painted on the hood of
his Race car Warrior handbook. Who was really about the
role of the men and it channeled that energy and
it put it in to me in a good way
that it gave the men direction and what to do.

(21:13):
Kenneth Dear was a spokesperson for the Mohawk Nation during
these years, and he saw how the Warriors in August
Sassy were getting drawn into a political battle. It wasn't
a criminal organization. Wasn't supposed to be a criminal organization,
you know. It was supposed to be a way to
teach the men are responsibilities and within tradition, you know.
And uh, some unfortunately, some people used it like a gang.

(21:36):
And and I can't support that. When anti gambling protesters
set up roadblocks in the spring of they knew that
they'd be up against the Mohawk Warriors and there was
going to be a reaction in the Mohawk Sovereignty Security Force,
which was supposed to provide a protection for the community,
showed where they're real allegiance slide, and that they became

(21:58):
deeply involved with the casino group and trying to break
the roadblocks in order to resume the smuggling and resume
the casino gambling. And these guys were lazy, They weren't trained,
they didn't have the discipline, they didn't have the psychological background,
the spiritual background. Uh, they didn't know how to control

(22:19):
their weapons. They would ride around in and the souped
up cars and trucks and r vs, not RVs but SUVs,
and and with with these weapons whose only purpose was
to kill other human beings and They were fueled by
alcohol and drugs, and they were employed as goon squads
by the cigarette smugglers who had now become the casino owners.

(22:43):
They had nothing of the virtues of a real mohawk
if you want to call a warrior. The roadblocks were
an escalation in the war between antis and casino owners.
Each side was dug in, accusing the other of collaborating
with the World government of corrupting the community. Mohawk warriors

(23:04):
would drive around the reservation and pickup trucks with automatic
weapons and military fatigues. They manned checkpoints at the border
of the reserve and became a vigilante force. They had
become a flashpoint in this conflict. Their supporters saw them
as defenders of the community, but to the anties they
were a marauding gang serving the smugglers. Tensions rose every

(23:24):
day and violence was becoming a regular part of life
in agrasas arson, vandalism, beatings and shootings, even a grenade attack.
It was, you know, automatic gunfire, all sorts of things
going on there, and that people across the river in
Ontario would come out in their porch and listen to
and say what no world has gone on over there,
but it was it was, it was, it was. It

(23:46):
was a combat situation. Eventually two people were killed in
the crossfire. Other Mohawk nations, which had done their best
to stay out of Agrasasne, now had little option but
to intervene. Kenneth Dear, the traditional leader in Gonawage, was
sent to aguas Sasine to see what could be done
about bringing both sides back together. You know, we we

(24:08):
tried our best to stay out of the the casino
war over there. We were trying to be pulled into that.
And our guys went there and and looked at what's
going on, and they came back and said, stay out
of there. He says, there's no there's no middle ground
over there. Either you're four or against. The situation was

(24:30):
so bad that if you weren't for them, you're against them.
If you want to build an economy, that's fine, and
it should be also be a collective, you know, but
when the collective didn't agree with what was going on,
and then it became uh an individual issue. It's hard
to to make peace when there's no middle ground and UH,

(24:53):
and that's why you know, it ended up with two
people being dead. You know, it's it's It was unfortunate.
But then came the Oka crisis. Hear firing. I'm not
sure if the weapons bard that we had the day
that they're firing at it good evening. It was a
bloody day at the Mohawk Indian community and Oca Quebec
near Montreal. Provincial police in riot gears stormed the barricades

(25:16):
the Mohawks had set up. There's an out of weapons
fire and now is this police firing or Mohawk firing
here to be coming from the police find the Combet
Police Force swap team moved in. It done and if
ever a police operation was to go tragically wrong, it
was this one. What kind of people are you? There's
children here and you're shooting tear gas at us. We're
unarmed and you're aiming your weapons at us. What kind

(25:36):
of people are you? Police use gas, then bullets, but
they weren't prepared for what met them. Dozens of heavily
armed Mohawk men determined to hold what they say is
their sacred ground behind a tree. There were clouds of
tear gas, a hail of bullets, and in the midst
of the battle of policemen was killed. All this because
of a dispute over a piece of forest. The Indians

(25:58):
claim is there's a forest owned council wants to bulldoze
to expand the local golf course. Back in, the mayor
of a small village near Montreal called Oka was pushing
a plan to develop a condominium complex and expanded golf
course on the outskirts of town, but that land belonged

(26:18):
to the Ghanesstaga Mohawk Territory and served as a cemetery
for the community. The protests that followed made international headlines
and turned into a three month long standoff between armed
Mohawk warriors and the Canadian military. That's what's killing our people.
These people here who don't give a ship about anybody's
rights under mown Indian has a right on this under

(26:40):
this land, Well, let's got to tink. It's Mohawk land,
it's our land. After the police retreated, the warriors celebrated,
but it didn't last long. Tonight, the barricade is completely
surrounded by the Canadian armies. The soldiers have dug themselves
in After a day of high tension and drama. The
images from the front lines were icon overturned cars barricades

(27:02):
made out of burning tires and trees. Men dressed in
camouflage fatigues with bandanas over their faces and a K
forty seven's on their backs, all standing against Canadian soldiers
in tanks and humbies. Again. Today, Native leaders in Ottawa
demanded the federal government do something about the confrontation. In Oka,
warriors were nearing hysteria the site of soldiers near their

(27:25):
tribal cemetery. The Indians at Oka have said they won't
abandoned their barricades until they get what they want. After
such a sudden, violent beginning, this could turn out to
be a long standoff. And there's also trouble on the
Conawaga Reserve south of Montreal, a sympathy blockade. Indigenous territories
across the continent took part in the protests. Leaders in
Gnawaga made the decision to shut down the Mercy A Bridge,

(27:48):
one of the major highways that links Montreal with towns
across the St. Lawrence River. In the end, the protests
were successful and the golf course was never expanded. Nevertin
calmed down after ninety because that was one, you know,
we went into the court system and all of that stuff,
But but it was one are people were known all

(28:11):
over the place for defending and so on and so forth.
Maybe we didn't win in court, or maybe some people
lost in court, but overall we won, we wont, and
then gambling and cigarettes it didn't seem like the biggest issue,
and the more the victory at Oka was hard one,
and months of protests had changed the perspective of many

(28:31):
people in Mohawk territories. Of course it was a traumatic issue,
but also it was an enlightenment to a lot of people.
They realized those people a lot of people who were
against cigarettes. Uh, all of a sudden, we're surrounded by
the by the s Q and the army, and there's
more important things that the series. And so when the

(28:54):
crisis was over, I thought cigarettes would be dead. And
then it was struggled for a little while, but then
it just owned and you saw a whole lot of
people who were against cigarettes who were now bright in
there because they felt that why be against cigarettes? They
felt that they didn't matter anymore. You know, if the
government also treat us that way, then that then I
have no problem with getting involved, no serious. There was

(29:16):
a change the attitude towards cigarettes. It was like night
and day. From was like night and day. Aguas's internal
conflict had cooled down completely, but it left the debate
over individual and collective rights unresolved. Danny the Company met
at the top of the episode, saw the entire evolution

(29:37):
of the conflict and how radically the smoke shops and
casinos changed again over the following decades. I think the
biggest lesson in my mind at the people down here
learned from ninety was blockade cuts their own throat as well.
Nothing was moving, Um, you couldn't smuggle anything out be

(30:00):
because the state police had patrols at every exit. Just
I mean, it was kind of like a stare down
with the mohawks, and so the smuggling went downhill. There
was no civilian traffic. And back then they depended tremendously
on sales from non natives for cigarettes, tobacco, gasoline, and

(30:26):
that was just just like somebody through a switch, and
so economically it was a disaster for the people down here.
I think that comes into play at why it's been
so calm for so many years. So interesting to hear
you say that those things like the casinos, the gas
station and uh, tobacco is what improved life because in

(30:49):
a lot of the books that get written about the
Mohawks Civil War and stuff, it's always the cops and
the anti is standing together against the warriors. And the
antis didn't like any of what they were seeing with
the new new businesses. Right, So I guess I just
didn't expect law enforcement to take the side that cigarettes, gambling,

(31:11):
gas stations were actually helping the community. Yeah, I agree, Um,
I wouldn't. I don't know if it's fair to classify
as taking sides, but possibly just being realistic. I don't
think the gambling has been detrimental to the reservation in

(31:32):
the way the antis thought it was gonna be. Um.
I know they pictured, you know, crack on the corner,
hookers every five ft, um, you know, Tony Sopranos sitting
in the lobby. But I don't think that has come
to fruition at all. And since the gas stations came in,

(31:58):
and the tobacco and then a casino, Um, the quality
of life really has improved tremendously down there on the reserve.
I mean, it provides opportunity. I mean it's not all bad.
It's not all bad. Which brings us back to the

(32:19):
present day, and so the case that Derek is fighting
against the Canadian government, well, to be more precise, the
conflict between Derek and the Mohawk Nation Council of Chiefs,
which is trying to get him to drop his case.
Derek is claiming that as a Mohawk, he has the
right to conduct his business tax free, but the Council

(32:40):
of Chiefs is claiming that Derek was not acting with
the permission or authority of the Mohawk Nation, so therefore
he can't claim native rights. It's the same question that
was at the heart of the Aguasasni conflict. Two rights
belong to the individual or do they belong to the community.
Kenneth Dear believes that those rights are best in the

(33:01):
community and that Derek's case could do more harm than good.
What is the risk of presenting a case of collective
france as in the majority, because they judges could decide
that a very bad judgment against them could affect all
of Lolla Mohawks. You know, the judgment could say that
the Mohawks do not have the collective right to transport

(33:23):
of cigarettes over the border, and that would be you know, disastrous.
You know if if a judgment said that, and particularly
since the collective didn't make the argument. So if an
individual uh makes the argument and loses, we all lose.
If they if they think they phoned me guilty, well,
you know what, the whole nation is going to suffer

(33:46):
from this. I shouldn't be fighting this. It's it's the
whole nation. It's the whole community of everywhere, every community
in Canada and the United States. Basically, it's their fight.
It's not mine. But I'm the only one that is
bringing it to Supreme Court and fighting this. It was

(34:10):
plain to see that Derek was not going to drop
his case. He was going to fight it all the
way to the end, come hell or high water. The
Council of Chiefs had no choice but to take things further.
They were going to do something that they've never done before.
They demanded that the court allow them to intervene in
the case against Derek. The judge agreed. Coming up next

(34:35):
time on running smoke, I have to say the Nation
Council's involvement in the case right from the start was
damage control. It was how do we minimize the potential
damage to this This court could do not our court,
not our judge, not our law. Running Smokes a production

(35:04):
of Campsite Media, Dan Patrick Productions and Workhouse Media. The
series was written and reported by me Roger Golan. Our
producers are Leah Papes, Lane Gerbig and Julie Denachet. Our
editors are Michelle Lands and Emily Martinez. Sound designed and
original music by Mark McAdam. Additional sound and mixing by
Ewen Lyon from Ewan. Additional reporting by Susie McCarthy. Our

(35:26):
executive producers are Dan Patrick, Josh Dean of Campsie Media,
Paul Anderson, Nick Vanella and Andrew Greenwood for Workhouse Media.
Fact checking by Mary Matthis and Angelie Mercado, artwork by
Polly Adams, and additional thanks to Greg Horne, Johnny Kaufman,
Sierra Franco, Elizabeth van Brocklin and Sean Flynn