January 18, 2022 • 21 mins
Social entrepreneur and family cook Roo Rogers had no ordinary childhood, but then his mother, Ruthie Rogers, was no ordinary mother.
In episode 18 of Ruthie's Table 4, Ruthie talks with her son about his memories of growing up in Paris, visiting food markets and the quest to find the perfect restaurant.
Together they discuss Roo’s memories of working summers in the River Cafe and what he has learnt there. Together, Ruthie and Roo recall their culinary travels around the world cooking at home and the politics of food equality.
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home.
On Ruthie's Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers.
Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks.
Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation.
For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to River Cafe, Table four, a production of iHeartRadio
and Adamis Studios.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, all right, let's go today. Okay, Today, as we
sit here in the River Cafe on a busy Monday lunch,
(00:26):
I'm joined by someone I know rather well, my son
Rue Rogers.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
You were born in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Paris, and so would you say your earliest memories are
of living in Paris?
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I think my earliest memories are eating food in Paris,
and my earliest memories are of walking into restaurants, and
I remember going into Benoir and sort of having stories
about how the Pompadou Center was designed there. From the
earliest stages, I think I learned quite quickly only a
passion and love for food, but that you booked the
restaurant first, and you found the restaurant first, and then
(01:05):
you figured out who you were going to invite and
what you were going to talk about.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
And so I always felt so growing.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Up that like it really was an exploration, not a
convenience or a necessity, but an exploration.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And so do you think more of your memories at
Paris are beating out rather than home cooking.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I think I still think to this day that like
really great French markets, you know. And I actually probably
remember better walking through the French market, you know, on
Boulevard a Spy with you and Dad, And I remember
riching dad buying a chicken, a roast chicken, and they
put it in those sort of silver foil bags and
(01:43):
there were no knives and forks, and he would just
literally kept his hand in there and we were just
the three of us were we were just eating chunks
of chicken as you pulled it off, and it was
the most delicious thing. And then when we needed dessert,
you bought some raspberries and we just took the raspberries
out of the cotton.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
That was love back then, and it was beautiful and
I remember it very well.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Do you still go to markets and shop and eat
that way?
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Everyone asked me how I know how to cook? And
I don't think I know how to cook. I know
how to shop, and I think it's two totally different things.
If you love food, you have to love the ingredients
and you never go out shopping for what you want
to make. You let the shopping define what you're going
to make. And that was the biggest lesson I ever
got growing up about food was It's all about the
(02:27):
quality of the ingredient. I think having a plate of
amazingly right tomatoes is as hard to cook as a
real shit, because you have to know whether those tomatoes
are going to be good, and you have to know
how to let those flavors come out. And so it's
not about the complexity of the recipe. It's about understanding ingredients.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, well, so that is very to do with seasonal food.
You say hello to a vegetable that has just arrived,
and at the same time you're saying goodbye. You know too,
I remember in Paris you might too. Ellen's came in.
We always knew that they were going to come, and
then you know, Fennel would go.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Do you remember.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I remember living in London and how you would come
back from Paris if I hadn't been able to join
you on your visit with tons of food from the market.
I mean asparagus. I remember white asparagus coming to London.
I don't think we'd ever seen it in the UK,
Like you couldn't get white expers. You'd come back with
white spagus or chev that was just seasonal and just
(03:26):
being completed.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
But I just have this image of.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
You coming back on a plane back then, right, No,
no trains, no boats, like you would fly back with
bags fold but you'd brought back just from the market.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
It's not very popular on the plane with smelly cheese Rose.
And you know, the story about Rose Gray was that
she once reserved a seat for you know, pumpkin and
put it in club and she sat in the economy.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
You know.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Actually, as I'm just mentioning Rose, do you have memories
of Rose cooking with Rose?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Well, I worked at the River Cafe when I was
I think seven teen and eighteen, and so working for
your mother and her partner and her best friend is
an interesting experience for your first job, somewhat terrifying and
fast learning. And what's interesting was, you know, Rose was
very exacting and very demanding in what we had to
(04:18):
do and how we made it and how we delivered it,
but very very charming as well, and someone wanted you
to live up to being the best best eater you
could be. She was curious about food.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And if Rose was an influence, going back to Richard
taking the chicken out of the bag with his fingers
in the market, do you think Richard was an influence
in your food life, your father.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yeah, I mean I think in a way we all
love food because Richard was a great eater. And I
do really think that being a great eater is a
really fundamental skill. It can be very frustrating great because
everything is being analyzed all the time, but it is
a very beautiful thing because you're constantly searching for that
(05:04):
new taste and that new experience and anything else is
not exciting for that. I mean, I remember the Michelin
Guide with yellow post it notes and written notes, and
I mean like obsession and then like going into bookstores
and saying, we found this restaurant, but we haven't been
do you recommend it? Like the amount of diligence we
(05:26):
did just to have lunch because Dad wanted a great
meal and you wanted to make that possible.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
But you you know, and we did it.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
And so I think a lot of that of you know,
curiosity and food cooking and food quality comes to Dad's
real keenness and passion for eating.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Actually, it's interested to say that, because I do remember
that we used to He had this theory. I don't
know where it came from, that if you wanted to
find a good restaurant. You always asked a bookstore that
there was a people who loved books would probably know
where to eat.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Do you remember when Richard went skiing with Bo, my brother,
and they bought asparagus and they had to figure out
how to cook it right? And Dad looked at it
from an engineering architectural point of view, and he decided
at the top of the sparagus were narrower and the
bottom of the asparagus were wider, So he cut them
(06:17):
up into pieces because the bottom, the wider pieces would
need more time in the water than the top pieces.
And sort of right, you know, what's the sparagus standing up?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
That's right? So that was that.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Dad took a very sort of like you know, pragmatic
point of view on cooking.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
This is probably a question like I only can ask
you on the series, but tell me about cooking with
your brothers.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Cooking with them?
Speaker 5 (06:42):
Are you trying to preserve our relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
About Ben?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Zad and Ape are all amazing cooks and very very different.
Ben is very precise and very responsible in terms of
the planet and what he's cooking and how much of
it he's cooking.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
But it always tastes perfect.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
My only like my standing image probably of like not
just this person, but my entire lifetime of food was
going to stay at Zad's house and him hanging over
a duck with a hair dryer and drying duck for Christmas.
An Abe is an explorer and you never quite know
(07:32):
what he's going to eat. I do not like surf
and turf and meat and fish together seem wrong to me.
But when I go to Abe's house, not only am
I going to have scallops with blood sausage, but it's
going to be delicious. So he is always the king
of surprise. And so my brothers are all very different
in the way.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
That they cook. For all a wonderful experience as well.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
What about American influence, because you know, I'm American and
every summer, I think your first flight to the United
States was when you were four, So you know what
were those summers, like, what did you eat? What? What
was the American influence as a child, and then we
can talk about later about as an adult.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Well, I think that in general, there were four things
that I can remember that we really loved eating in America.
It went hot pastriami, sandwich, corn in a cob steak,
and lobster, and I think there were muscles that we
used to pick off the beach, but unfortunately, with global warming,
those muscles have gone smaller and that's not possible. But
(08:38):
we used to love those things again because there's such
strong taste, Like the lovester would come out of the
sea and you would just boil it and you would
eat it.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
And the steak, I mean, it was just you didn't
have anything like it.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
And then you know, going to the Carnegie Deli and
having a hot pastriarami sandwich with strong mustard was delicious.
I think that, you know, the real American influence was
not in food though. I think the real influence was
in you, mum, and bringing over the idea that food
could be used in a sort of to make you
feel at home, right that like, if food comes to
(09:11):
the table, you will instinctly want to serve it to
other people, even if it's not your house, Ruthy, you
will want to help and serve others. And this notion
that food could come with such incredible generosity and warmth
was something that definitely came from your business and what
I think makes the River Cafe and what you do
(09:31):
so extraory is that you only say yes and yes.
It's such a nice word. It's a beautiful word, even
when you might not be able to carry through it. Yes,
it's still a nice place to start.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
It's a beautiful answer.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So, Rue, you went to university in New York, you
went to Columbia. What was it like being a student
in terms of food?
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Well, I think the most important thing I learned as
a student at university was the value of a slice
of pizza, because we lived on pizza, and it's delicious.
New York pizza is delicious. It's a very different thing.
It can be a snack, can me. Meal has to
be eaten the right way. The first time I ate
slice of pizza, I didn't fold it and I kept
it angled down and it dripped grease all over my clothes.
(10:15):
So I remember very much culturally having to get used
to the notion of fast food but also good food.
And I would cook for people all the time, and
I love that. And again I learned about New York
ingredients and I learned about where to buy what, and
it was, you know, it was really exciting.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Do you remember what you would cook for those genners
with your friends?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So the thing that I.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
The way I made friends as a child was that
we would have parties and then when everybody got a
little bit too drunk, I would make pussa with tomato sauce, right,
And so that was a very useful thing that I
learned very early on was that it was very good
to have something that you could make quickly and easily
and would probably help soak up some of the alcohol
and everybody's system. That has continued to with me ever since.
(10:58):
Now I seve it to my kids. It is always
something that you can get going very very quickly. But
I would cook when I was in in college, whatever
was fresh. My favorite meal was muscles and spicy tomato sauce.
So I'd buy muscles and I'd combine that with a
tomato sauce. And the other thing I really love about
New York, which I experienced a lot of when I
went to college, is you never self conscious of eating
(11:20):
on your own right. People are always stopping and eating
and eating by themselves. And that's something very very nice.
You know, you see people with a book in a
diner reading. That's that's a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Today. Do you take your children to restaurants do you
work in restaurants? How do you feel about going into
a restaurant? What do you look for? That's a multiple
question to ask a multiple question. Ever since Jeff Goldblum
told you I could ask a multiple.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Questions, I have always used restaurants as public space, and
I like to move. I need to be around other
people when I think, and there's nowhere better to be
around other people and surprise by people then restaurants. It's
about a certain level of discomfort because what you're really
(12:07):
doing is you're putting yourself in somebody else's hands in
a restaurant that you don't know whether they're going to
cook something the way you want it cooked, or whether
it should be good, with people that you've never met before,
seen before, and not knowing what conversations you might have,
and you're taking a risk, right, and in that risk
comes really beautiful things when it really pays off, when
you've really had a meal that surprises you. Right, that's
(12:30):
sort of like unexpected serendipity, right, which you could never
get from delivery.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
You're never going to get.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Serendipity when something is delivered to your hop. Right.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
You get serendipity when you take a walk down an
alley and you find a restaurant and you just walk in,
and one time out of ten it will just turn
out to be amazing.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And when you discover.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
That, in that risk, you found something that's truly creative
and truly rewarding.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
And that's what I'm always looking for.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Do you have a memory of food in terms of
relationship or impressing someone?
Speaker 4 (13:02):
I fell in love with my wife ever a dover Soul.
We were at Sha George restaurant and we had only
just met properly, and I ordered a dover Sole and
as it came fully on the bone, she and I
were talking and without taking a.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Break, I fillaid the fish and.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Ate it, and little to my knowledge that somehow really
impressed her. And she found that sort of creative skill
with my knife and fork and devowing that she George
dover Sol extremely sexy and allurin and a year later
we were married.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
You've actually lived in many places and right now you're
living in Africa. How does that influence your food?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Yeah? Travels, I mean every where I travel, I obsessively
look out for the most local restaurant.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
So we don't have mechlin guides anymore.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
But we have the web, and we also have friends
and ways to make friends, and I look for the
most authentic food there is. When I went to Ethiopia
a couple of years ago, you know, my add taxi
driver who picked me up in the airport, stayed with
me for three days, and the best meals I had
were in his family home, and they were extraordinary.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
I'll them forget what were they like.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
My favorite actually was when he took me to the
market and it's the meat market in Addie Adaba, and
there are just enormous carcasses of meat hanging from the
top and people shooting flies away from them, and you
walk in and he says, we're going to eat here.
So I said, okay, just choose your meat. And so
(14:51):
I choose a couple of cuts of meat. I even
choose some sweetbreads to be adventurous, and I go terrific
and they cut it off and they take it away.
We go sit down on the back and it comes
back in literally ninety seconds later, and they go, God,
they cook it quick here and it was raw. And
they serve all those meats raw with a spicy chili
(15:12):
sauce or nut sauce and a really amazing Ethiopian coffee
and I was there with everyone.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
And we ate it and it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
You're working in South Africa, what is the food like
in Johannesburg.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
The food that I've had in South Africa is the
truly South African food is delicious. They have extraordinary meat
in South Africa. The steak is exceptional. A lot of
stews and so a lot of meats cooked in tomato
sauce which is amazing, and some basic grains like the
equivalent of polento as well.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
So you talk about being very dventurous with your food,
eating raw sweetbreads and Ethiopia and traveling to you know,
all over the world in Nepal and eating this food,
But do cook that at home?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
I don't know the ingredients well enough and I don't
know where to go shopping for them, and therefore I
would rather eat out and have somebody who does know
them and knows how to cook them. So at home
we eat pretty western soule food. My wife, Bernie, though,
who is Chinese American, makes the most amazing Chinese and
Asian food as well as Indian food as well.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
What does she make She.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Makes incredible dumplings and wantons, which we all love and cherish.
I mean, what's interesting is that there is very few
things in Western food that is completely original, right, and
so we all get influenced by everyone else. So an
amazing wanton is actually like an amazing ravioli, or she
would correct me and say, an amazing ravioli is like
(16:46):
an amazing wanton. Since China has existed and been cooking
this food for quite a long a lot longer, which
is to say, it's really based about the quality of
the pasta or the wrapper, as they say, and how
light that is and how thin that is, and how
light can you get it, and keeping the fitting as
simple as possible, and if the chibes are good, it
makes the one time. And so again you're very dependent
(17:08):
on fresh quality ingredients.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
You've worked in NGOs, You've written a book, What's Mine
Is Yours, about sustainability and sharing and consumers society. You've
traveled to Afghanistan and Nepal, working with people of different cultures.
Do you feel that the politics of food is something
(17:32):
that interests you.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
I'm less interested in the politics of food at the
micro level, which is not to say I don't think
it's important, but like the idea of the organic movement
and such, is less important to me. At the macro level,
which is around food security.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I'm very interested in it.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
We talk a lot about overpopulation, but what we, in
my opinion, should really be talking about is food security.
There is more than enough resources in the world to
feed more people on this planet, but we choose politically
not to feed those people. We choose to not send
grain to places that it's needed. We choose to have
(18:12):
cows and dairy where we don't need more milk.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Right.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
We choose not to provide loans to small holder farmers
in Africa and India, And so we make choices every
day around food security and providing food security to billions
of people, right that have nothing to do with whether
we actually have the ability as a planet to sustain
those resources we could And I passionately believe this feed
everybody in a healthy, equitable way that is good for
(18:38):
the planet.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Should we choose to it's a choice.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Is we the worst as we developed nations? Who is
when you say we could feed the planet? Who is
the we?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
I mean? Food security is really an issue that's defined
by Western powers and Western governments, and if we wanted
to again and remove subsidies and read this stribute food,
we could solve food security forever.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Right.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I think looking at innovation to solve this problem is
a really interesting question. And I think if you look
at things like impossible meats, it's very exciting. I mean,
the transformation to our ecosystem by removing hamburger meat or
beef from McDonald's would be huge, right, I mean, that
would just just change the world. But again, while as
(19:30):
much as I like the idea of innovation and I
believe in it, it is people, not technology that need
to make changes, and those people are leaders and governments,
and it starts at you know, as much as I
believe in, you know, becoming a vegetarian, you know, talk
to talk, walk to walk, I really believe that if
political leaders came together and made hard choices and decisions
(19:53):
in a collective way, we could solve most of problems
as well as innovation.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
So rue, you've talked about comfort and food, the comfort
of food at home, the discomfort of experienced food often
in the restaurant, the comfort of food of cooking for
your children. You use that word very often in describing
what you love about food and what you look for
in food. And I was wondering, as I've asked everyone,
(20:23):
if you needed comfort from food, not the taste or
the excitement or the adventure, what would be your comfort food.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Well, I am very, very privileged because it's not a
question of what do I eat, it's a question of
where do I go. And I go home to see
my mom and anything she cooks.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
You're so happy.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
It's really nice.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
You remember remember the mission of book.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
To visit the online shop of the River Cafe. Go
to Shoptharrivercafe dot co dot uk.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
River Cafe Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and
Adamized Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to River Cafe, Table four, a production of iHeartRadio
and Adamis Studios.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, all right, let's go today. Okay, Today, as we
sit here in the River Cafe on a busy Monday lunch,
(00:26):
I'm joined by someone I know rather well, my son
Rue Rogers.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
You were born in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Paris, and so would you say your earliest memories are
of living in Paris?
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I think my earliest memories are eating food in Paris,
and my earliest memories are of walking into restaurants, and
I remember going into Benoir and sort of having stories
about how the Pompadou Center was designed there. From the
earliest stages, I think I learned quite quickly only a
passion and love for food, but that you booked the
restaurant first, and you found the restaurant first, and then
(01:05):
you figured out who you were going to invite and
what you were going to talk about.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
And so I always felt so growing.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Up that like it really was an exploration, not a
convenience or a necessity, but an exploration.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And so do you think more of your memories at
Paris are beating out rather than home cooking.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I think I still think to this day that like
really great French markets, you know. And I actually probably
remember better walking through the French market, you know, on
Boulevard a Spy with you and Dad, And I remember
riching dad buying a chicken, a roast chicken, and they
put it in those sort of silver foil bags and
(01:43):
there were no knives and forks, and he would just
literally kept his hand in there and we were just
the three of us were we were just eating chunks
of chicken as you pulled it off, and it was
the most delicious thing. And then when we needed dessert,
you bought some raspberries and we just took the raspberries
out of the cotton.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
That was love back then, and it was beautiful and
I remember it very well.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Do you still go to markets and shop and eat
that way?
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Everyone asked me how I know how to cook? And
I don't think I know how to cook. I know
how to shop, and I think it's two totally different things.
If you love food, you have to love the ingredients
and you never go out shopping for what you want
to make. You let the shopping define what you're going
to make. And that was the biggest lesson I ever
got growing up about food was It's all about the
(02:27):
quality of the ingredient. I think having a plate of
amazingly right tomatoes is as hard to cook as a
real shit, because you have to know whether those tomatoes
are going to be good, and you have to know
how to let those flavors come out. And so it's
not about the complexity of the recipe. It's about understanding ingredients.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, well, so that is very to do with seasonal food.
You say hello to a vegetable that has just arrived,
and at the same time you're saying goodbye. You know too,
I remember in Paris you might too. Ellen's came in.
We always knew that they were going to come, and
then you know, Fennel would go.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Do you remember.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I remember living in London and how you would come
back from Paris if I hadn't been able to join
you on your visit with tons of food from the market.
I mean asparagus. I remember white asparagus coming to London.
I don't think we'd ever seen it in the UK,
Like you couldn't get white expers. You'd come back with
white spagus or chev that was just seasonal and just
(03:26):
being completed.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
But I just have this image of.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
You coming back on a plane back then, right, No,
no trains, no boats, like you would fly back with
bags fold but you'd brought back just from the market.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
It's not very popular on the plane with smelly cheese Rose.
And you know, the story about Rose Gray was that
she once reserved a seat for you know, pumpkin and
put it in club and she sat in the economy.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
You know.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Actually, as I'm just mentioning Rose, do you have memories
of Rose cooking with Rose?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Well, I worked at the River Cafe when I was
I think seven teen and eighteen, and so working for
your mother and her partner and her best friend is
an interesting experience for your first job, somewhat terrifying and
fast learning. And what's interesting was, you know, Rose was
very exacting and very demanding in what we had to
(04:18):
do and how we made it and how we delivered it,
but very very charming as well, and someone wanted you
to live up to being the best best eater you
could be. She was curious about food.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And if Rose was an influence, going back to Richard
taking the chicken out of the bag with his fingers
in the market, do you think Richard was an influence
in your food life, your father.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yeah, I mean I think in a way we all
love food because Richard was a great eater. And I
do really think that being a great eater is a
really fundamental skill. It can be very frustrating great because
everything is being analyzed all the time, but it is
a very beautiful thing because you're constantly searching for that
(05:04):
new taste and that new experience and anything else is
not exciting for that. I mean, I remember the Michelin
Guide with yellow post it notes and written notes, and
I mean like obsession and then like going into bookstores
and saying, we found this restaurant, but we haven't been
do you recommend it? Like the amount of diligence we
(05:26):
did just to have lunch because Dad wanted a great
meal and you wanted to make that possible.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
But you you know, and we did it.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
And so I think a lot of that of you know,
curiosity and food cooking and food quality comes to Dad's
real keenness and passion for eating.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Actually, it's interested to say that, because I do remember
that we used to He had this theory. I don't
know where it came from, that if you wanted to
find a good restaurant. You always asked a bookstore that
there was a people who loved books would probably know
where to eat.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Do you remember when Richard went skiing with Bo, my brother,
and they bought asparagus and they had to figure out
how to cook it right? And Dad looked at it
from an engineering architectural point of view, and he decided
at the top of the sparagus were narrower and the
bottom of the asparagus were wider, So he cut them
(06:17):
up into pieces because the bottom, the wider pieces would
need more time in the water than the top pieces.
And sort of right, you know, what's the sparagus standing up?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
That's right? So that was that.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Dad took a very sort of like you know, pragmatic
point of view on cooking.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
This is probably a question like I only can ask
you on the series, but tell me about cooking with
your brothers.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Cooking with them?
Speaker 5 (06:42):
Are you trying to preserve our relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
About Ben?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Zad and Ape are all amazing cooks and very very different.
Ben is very precise and very responsible in terms of
the planet and what he's cooking and how much of
it he's cooking.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
But it always tastes perfect.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
My only like my standing image probably of like not
just this person, but my entire lifetime of food was
going to stay at Zad's house and him hanging over
a duck with a hair dryer and drying duck for Christmas.
An Abe is an explorer and you never quite know
(07:32):
what he's going to eat. I do not like surf
and turf and meat and fish together seem wrong to me.
But when I go to Abe's house, not only am
I going to have scallops with blood sausage, but it's
going to be delicious. So he is always the king
of surprise. And so my brothers are all very different
in the way.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
That they cook. For all a wonderful experience as well.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
What about American influence, because you know, I'm American and
every summer, I think your first flight to the United
States was when you were four, So you know what
were those summers, like, what did you eat? What? What
was the American influence as a child, and then we
can talk about later about as an adult.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Well, I think that in general, there were four things
that I can remember that we really loved eating in America.
It went hot pastriami, sandwich, corn in a cob steak,
and lobster, and I think there were muscles that we
used to pick off the beach, but unfortunately, with global warming,
those muscles have gone smaller and that's not possible. But
(08:38):
we used to love those things again because there's such
strong taste, Like the lovester would come out of the
sea and you would just boil it and you would
eat it.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
And the steak, I mean, it was just you didn't
have anything like it.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
And then you know, going to the Carnegie Deli and
having a hot pastriarami sandwich with strong mustard was delicious.
I think that, you know, the real American influence was
not in food though. I think the real influence was
in you, mum, and bringing over the idea that food
could be used in a sort of to make you
feel at home, right that like, if food comes to
(09:11):
the table, you will instinctly want to serve it to
other people, even if it's not your house, Ruthy, you
will want to help and serve others. And this notion
that food could come with such incredible generosity and warmth
was something that definitely came from your business and what
I think makes the River Cafe and what you do
(09:31):
so extraory is that you only say yes and yes.
It's such a nice word. It's a beautiful word, even
when you might not be able to carry through it. Yes,
it's still a nice place to start.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
It's a beautiful answer.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So, Rue, you went to university in New York, you
went to Columbia. What was it like being a student
in terms of food?
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Well, I think the most important thing I learned as
a student at university was the value of a slice
of pizza, because we lived on pizza, and it's delicious.
New York pizza is delicious. It's a very different thing.
It can be a snack, can me. Meal has to
be eaten the right way. The first time I ate
slice of pizza, I didn't fold it and I kept
it angled down and it dripped grease all over my clothes.
(10:15):
So I remember very much culturally having to get used
to the notion of fast food but also good food.
And I would cook for people all the time, and
I love that. And again I learned about New York
ingredients and I learned about where to buy what, and
it was, you know, it was really exciting.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Do you remember what you would cook for those genners
with your friends?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So the thing that I.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
The way I made friends as a child was that
we would have parties and then when everybody got a
little bit too drunk, I would make pussa with tomato sauce, right,
And so that was a very useful thing that I
learned very early on was that it was very good
to have something that you could make quickly and easily
and would probably help soak up some of the alcohol
and everybody's system. That has continued to with me ever since.
(10:58):
Now I seve it to my kids. It is always
something that you can get going very very quickly. But
I would cook when I was in in college, whatever
was fresh. My favorite meal was muscles and spicy tomato sauce.
So I'd buy muscles and I'd combine that with a
tomato sauce. And the other thing I really love about
New York, which I experienced a lot of when I
went to college, is you never self conscious of eating
(11:20):
on your own right. People are always stopping and eating
and eating by themselves. And that's something very very nice.
You know, you see people with a book in a
diner reading. That's that's a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Today. Do you take your children to restaurants do you
work in restaurants? How do you feel about going into
a restaurant? What do you look for? That's a multiple
question to ask a multiple question. Ever since Jeff Goldblum
told you I could ask a multiple.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Questions, I have always used restaurants as public space, and
I like to move. I need to be around other
people when I think, and there's nowhere better to be
around other people and surprise by people then restaurants. It's
about a certain level of discomfort because what you're really
(12:07):
doing is you're putting yourself in somebody else's hands in
a restaurant that you don't know whether they're going to
cook something the way you want it cooked, or whether
it should be good, with people that you've never met before,
seen before, and not knowing what conversations you might have,
and you're taking a risk, right, and in that risk
comes really beautiful things when it really pays off, when
you've really had a meal that surprises you. Right, that's
(12:30):
sort of like unexpected serendipity, right, which you could never
get from delivery.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
You're never going to get.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Serendipity when something is delivered to your hop. Right.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
You get serendipity when you take a walk down an
alley and you find a restaurant and you just walk in,
and one time out of ten it will just turn
out to be amazing.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And when you discover.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
That, in that risk, you found something that's truly creative
and truly rewarding.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
And that's what I'm always looking for.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Do you have a memory of food in terms of
relationship or impressing someone?
Speaker 4 (13:02):
I fell in love with my wife ever a dover Soul.
We were at Sha George restaurant and we had only
just met properly, and I ordered a dover Sole and
as it came fully on the bone, she and I
were talking and without taking a.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Break, I fillaid the fish and.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Ate it, and little to my knowledge that somehow really
impressed her. And she found that sort of creative skill
with my knife and fork and devowing that she George
dover Sol extremely sexy and allurin and a year later
we were married.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
You've actually lived in many places and right now you're
living in Africa. How does that influence your food?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Yeah? Travels, I mean every where I travel, I obsessively
look out for the most local restaurant.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
So we don't have mechlin guides anymore.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
But we have the web, and we also have friends
and ways to make friends, and I look for the
most authentic food there is. When I went to Ethiopia
a couple of years ago, you know, my add taxi
driver who picked me up in the airport, stayed with
me for three days, and the best meals I had
were in his family home, and they were extraordinary.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
I'll them forget what were they like.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
My favorite actually was when he took me to the
market and it's the meat market in Addie Adaba, and
there are just enormous carcasses of meat hanging from the
top and people shooting flies away from them, and you
walk in and he says, we're going to eat here.
So I said, okay, just choose your meat. And so
(14:51):
I choose a couple of cuts of meat. I even
choose some sweetbreads to be adventurous, and I go terrific
and they cut it off and they take it away.
We go sit down on the back and it comes
back in literally ninety seconds later, and they go, God,
they cook it quick here and it was raw. And
they serve all those meats raw with a spicy chili
(15:12):
sauce or nut sauce and a really amazing Ethiopian coffee
and I was there with everyone.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
And we ate it and it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
You're working in South Africa, what is the food like
in Johannesburg.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
The food that I've had in South Africa is the
truly South African food is delicious. They have extraordinary meat
in South Africa. The steak is exceptional. A lot of
stews and so a lot of meats cooked in tomato
sauce which is amazing, and some basic grains like the
equivalent of polento as well.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
So you talk about being very dventurous with your food,
eating raw sweetbreads and Ethiopia and traveling to you know,
all over the world in Nepal and eating this food,
But do cook that at home?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
I don't know the ingredients well enough and I don't
know where to go shopping for them, and therefore I
would rather eat out and have somebody who does know
them and knows how to cook them. So at home
we eat pretty western soule food. My wife, Bernie, though,
who is Chinese American, makes the most amazing Chinese and
Asian food as well as Indian food as well.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
What does she make She.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Makes incredible dumplings and wantons, which we all love and cherish.
I mean, what's interesting is that there is very few
things in Western food that is completely original, right, and
so we all get influenced by everyone else. So an
amazing wanton is actually like an amazing ravioli, or she
would correct me and say, an amazing ravioli is like
(16:46):
an amazing wanton. Since China has existed and been cooking
this food for quite a long a lot longer, which
is to say, it's really based about the quality of
the pasta or the wrapper, as they say, and how
light that is and how thin that is, and how
light can you get it, and keeping the fitting as
simple as possible, and if the chibes are good, it
makes the one time. And so again you're very dependent
(17:08):
on fresh quality ingredients.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
You've worked in NGOs, You've written a book, What's Mine
Is Yours, about sustainability and sharing and consumers society. You've
traveled to Afghanistan and Nepal, working with people of different cultures.
Do you feel that the politics of food is something
(17:32):
that interests you.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
I'm less interested in the politics of food at the
micro level, which is not to say I don't think
it's important, but like the idea of the organic movement
and such, is less important to me. At the macro level,
which is around food security.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I'm very interested in it.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
We talk a lot about overpopulation, but what we, in
my opinion, should really be talking about is food security.
There is more than enough resources in the world to
feed more people on this planet, but we choose politically
not to feed those people. We choose to not send
grain to places that it's needed. We choose to have
(18:12):
cows and dairy where we don't need more milk.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Right.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
We choose not to provide loans to small holder farmers
in Africa and India, And so we make choices every
day around food security and providing food security to billions
of people, right that have nothing to do with whether
we actually have the ability as a planet to sustain
those resources we could And I passionately believe this feed
everybody in a healthy, equitable way that is good for
(18:38):
the planet.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Should we choose to it's a choice.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Is we the worst as we developed nations? Who is
when you say we could feed the planet? Who is
the we?
Speaker 4 (18:48):
I mean? Food security is really an issue that's defined
by Western powers and Western governments, and if we wanted
to again and remove subsidies and read this stribute food,
we could solve food security forever.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Right.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I think looking at innovation to solve this problem is
a really interesting question. And I think if you look
at things like impossible meats, it's very exciting. I mean,
the transformation to our ecosystem by removing hamburger meat or
beef from McDonald's would be huge, right, I mean, that
would just just change the world. But again, while as
(19:30):
much as I like the idea of innovation and I
believe in it, it is people, not technology that need
to make changes, and those people are leaders and governments,
and it starts at you know, as much as I
believe in, you know, becoming a vegetarian, you know, talk
to talk, walk to walk, I really believe that if
political leaders came together and made hard choices and decisions
(19:53):
in a collective way, we could solve most of problems
as well as innovation.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
So rue, you've talked about comfort and food, the comfort
of food at home, the discomfort of experienced food often
in the restaurant, the comfort of food of cooking for
your children. You use that word very often in describing
what you love about food and what you look for
in food. And I was wondering, as I've asked everyone,
(20:23):
if you needed comfort from food, not the taste or
the excitement or the adventure, what would be your comfort food.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Well, I am very, very privileged because it's not a
question of what do I eat, it's a question of
where do I go. And I go home to see
my mom and anything she cooks.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
You're so happy.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
It's really nice.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
You remember remember the mission of book.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
To visit the online shop of the River Cafe. Go
to Shoptharrivercafe dot co dot uk.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
River Cafe Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and
Adamized Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Ruth Rogers
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