October 19, 2021 • 24 mins
In this episode of Ruthie's Table 4, the artist and director Steve McQueen talks beautifully about the heritage, ethical values and social impact of food in his life, and ours.
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home.
On Ruthie's Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers.
Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks.
Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation.
For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to River Cafe Table for a production of I
Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. Sitting here in the
River Cafe on a Sunday Monday morning, with chefs in
the kitchen making ravioli with your rolls, and waiters laying
(00:20):
tables in the garden, the uncertain world we live in
feels miles away. The artist and filmmaker Steve McQueen does
not separate the world of beauty and the world of
suffering in any of his work political oppression, slavery, sexual inequality.
(00:40):
Steve and I met when he won the Turner Prize
for his radical video art, and we once had dinner
together with President Obama. It was clear that the only
person President Obama was interested in talking to was Steve McQueen,
and he didn't want to share him with anyone. Now,
(01:01):
a few years later, I finally have Steve McQueen all
to myself, and being a generous person, will share him
with you. Steve and I share a hero in Paul Robeson.
We share the same concerns for equality and justice and food,
(01:22):
and today we're going to talk all about that and more.
Thank you, Steve, Thank you for inviting me. Tell me
about growing up in London. You lived with your parents
in West London and what did you eat? Yeah, we
grew up. I grew up in a firstly shoveled bush,
West London. My relationship with food really starts with the market.
(01:44):
I was the kid who was carrying the bags behind
their mother because basically I would have to go with
her because you know, I was a sort of extra
pair of hands to carry the shopping back home. Food
was a way of actually getting to go London because
if someone said to my mother there's you know, you
could get so and so sea beast in this market
for this amount of money, she will be there. So
(02:06):
people you should talk about where can they get particularly
kind of food and fresh produce. Now, where was your
mother born? My mother was born in Trinidad, but she
grew up in in Grenada, and my father was born
in Ingrenada. How old were they when they came to London?
But my mother was about fourteen fifteen and throughout fifteen
when she came to London, I think in the early sixties,
(02:27):
and my father was a little bit older. I think
maybe he was about twenty one. I don't know when.
I think he came early succeeds too, but not not
at the same time. And so do you think her
mother had taken her to the market. As you say,
the market does introduce us to a culture, it introduces
us to a city. It's the first place I always
go when I go to any town in any city
(02:47):
in any country. But tell me more about the smells
of the market and what it looked like for you
and and your mother's experience of the market. Well, in fact,
what happened was that a lot of rajoity of people
for coming from West India Headland, and they grew their
own food, you know, and look after you know, the
animals and so forth and whatnot. And fishing was a
big part of the culture too, because obviously my mother
(03:10):
lived on on the coast inlat a place course it
tiers and a very big fishing spot there, you know,
it's kind of fishing village. Food was very much directly
sort of to do who with who they were. So
when they came to London, of course looking for good
food was very important. And you know we used to
go to all kinds of bloody markets all over London.
I so, I said, I beat up with it, I said,
(03:31):
missed me football, focus on the satellite because that to
go to the market of my mom. It was something
which I remember. There was all different cultures, you know
it was, didn't you You had the sort of you know,
the Londoners and the white Londoners that the Indian, you have,
the Jewish, you had all kinds of people. Was fabulous.
It was really kind of cool. Tone. My knew would
come home from the market. What would you eat? What
(03:52):
would they cook from the market? Oh so if you
get dash in you know, spinage, you know again you
know you cook. I mean my my my favorite was
like a nice stew chicken and that special thing. I'm
roty just you know, my gods, what was it? A
beautiful It's like a nice stewfish and I just love
(04:14):
what was this? There's one thing I used to not
very much. It was it was a vegetable? What was it?
It was? Ok? I love, ok, I love. Yeah. It
was all kinds of exotic stuff. I mean, I say,
he's on it because it was familiar to me. But
my friends, my white friendt or what was that was? This?
Was this? Yeah? Cooked in the house. My mother cooked,
my father cooked. My father was a good cooked too.
(04:35):
He took pride in the Christmas ham. That was his job.
There was a particular way of cooking came from because
he's uncle with a butcher in the West Indes, so
there was a particular way of cooking the ham. I
can't even prescribe it now, but it's close all into
indented in all everywhere. It was almost like sort of
it's never are a movie. Um gorgeous was his marvelous? Yeah?
(04:58):
Great cooks, great cooks. Did you cook with them? Was
it a family affair? Would you all cook together? I mean,
I love being with my mother in the kitchen because
somehow I love to help out. I love to sort
of be I don't know, I love to love that.
So I can't say that I'm a great cook, but
I was a very good shoes chef, a bit of
an eat and tidy person. What they entertained when friends
(05:20):
come over? Was there that feeling when people did come over,
it was it was a lot of family and friend
and well, I think most of the things I used
to do when the people come up for them would
just listen because there was always always that would come
out that my parents will never talk to us about,
of course, but always because adults will talk to adults,
so that if we find out about sort of how
what was going on on when you left this very
(05:43):
comforting family meals where you were cooked for and you
ate together. What was that like when you left home?
Where did you live? I was actually near you, guys,
Actually I was. I was in Fulham. I was just
around the corner from me. I was with his girlfriend
and she was great. It was a very put important
girlfriend of mine and her name was a Nuke. She
was a Swiss. And then she had discovered this restaurant,
(06:07):
this place called Malati, the Indonesian place and so, which
was delicious, It was gorgeous, and that was my first restaurant,
and she that was your first restaurant. That was one
of my first restaurants. Yeah, I was. I was thinking
was about nineteen years old. And after that the restaurant
has become part of your social life. Did you love restaurants? Absolutely?
I mean, what's great about I mean now, I suppose
(06:28):
in London it wasn't so when when I was growing up,
we didn't have that was the world, I think. And
to be introduced to the world through food and of
course good company, that's always the main ingredient for for
going to a restaurant. So that was wonderful. And then
we got to know, so we've got a lot of restaurants,
and so we got to know. I remember during that time,
it's early nineties, early early nineties. Yeah, and also in
(06:51):
the East End to Yeah, what about an arts school?
Was that revelation? Yeah? I mean, you know, cannon bitter
cheese ladio and that gets I mean that was that
was kind of like interesting because again there wasn't an
addition to Westing this cheese. I mean those cheese. I
it was crappy cheese. You know, you can imagine a
sort of a big block of something which they called cheese.
(07:13):
But getting to them cheese was interesting during my time
foundation at Chelsea. I mean, it's a kind of interesting
life change, isn't it between this going to the market
with your mother and carrying the bag and coming home
and cooking and then sitting and down and eating and
then having independence and having to fend for yourself and
discover life out there. Did you go home? Would you
(07:36):
return home for the home cooked meal? Yes? I used
to love going home for food. My goodness, I said,
oh well, my goodness, I still love it. It's just
it's just a sort of Yeah. It was difficult because
I went first. It was how do I cook? What
do I cook? I was on the phone with my mom.
How do I do this? My moth, I do this,
(07:56):
it's my moth, I do that. So a lot of
calls about me can sort of soups and things like that,
and how do I season? And because I can't. For granted,
I said to be the shoe ship, but I wasn't
really looking, it wasn't really studying. Yeah, so yeah, a
lot of phone calls. Basically back onund Welcome Back to
(08:21):
River Cafe, Table four. In each episode, my guest reads
a recipe they have chosen from one of our cookbooks.
We chose spinach and peas. So would you like to
go for it and tell the world how to make it?
One ram fresh peas in their pods, extra virgin olive oil,
(08:45):
one garlic clothes peel and diced, one dried red chili crumbled,
one kilogram of spinach, washed, tough storks, removed how had
the piece and blanched them in plenty of boiling water.
In Italy, no one ever cooks vegetables out. The only
(09:07):
past it. So rather than blanching these peas, boil them
so that they almost melt together with spinach and the
olive oil gorgeous. So now, Steve, here we are and
we're going to talk about the series that has just
been on television that we've all watched and been so
(09:29):
moved by. Small acts. You tell the story of a
local restaurant constantly harassed by the police. Is that a memory?
Is that story? Can you tell me about the restaurant,
the politics and the series. Sure? Well, the Mangrove Restaurant
was a restaurant run by Frank Krislow in Lambert Grove
(09:49):
on All Saints Row, and he opened a restaurant in
and it was a sort of home away from home restaurant.
You can imagine, as I said before, all the people
on English sort of the taste of home, and that
had a vibrancy of having sort of like many people
wanted to sort of come to a place to eat
and the sort of commune with each other. So it
(10:10):
was a place of refuge in it in a way.
You know, the vibe that the vibe that came out
of there, and it was just one of those places
which became very infectious if people wanted to go it
was it was it was some English was which was
which was on the scene, and unfortunately the police and
the authorities that be obviously didn't like what was happening
at this place because again it was you know, it
(10:33):
was people from the west Inndiers, it was working class people,
it was the thinkers, it was sort of activists were
coming there. And also the why ploy so all these
people coming to this spot and talking over food, having
ideas and obviously that was something which the authorities didn't like,
and therefore they tried to disrupt disruptive as much as
(10:54):
they could. You know, it was a case of the
people not wanting certain ideas having a foothold in UK,
and they thought that the Mangrove was a place where
those ideas could sort of take root. There's something about
doing that kind of discussion as well over food, and
one of the things that I see in the restaurant
as that somehow being out of your house, being away
(11:15):
from your domestic life, being looked after, gives you the
chance to really focus on a conversation. Do you find
that in a restaurant, Absolutely absolutely, And there's a sense
of I don't know what is it purpose, you're there,
you're pregnant, there's another person there and present. But also
actually just to listen. It's just a case of being
(11:39):
in an environment where you are you know, you feel
comfortable in order to say things and and and listen.
And also I've talked to various people in business and
in film and creating movies or making deals. I mean
when I always quote is Michael Caine who said that
he never did a deal for a movie in America
(11:59):
that and take place in a restaurant, And he said
that was very Hollywood. Do you work in restaurants? Do
you'd like to meet people that you're going to work
with in a restaurant? First, I love it, but that
doesn't happen often. I mean, I think it's sort of
it's a classy way to do anything, isn't it. And
also I love it because growing up in the art world.
(12:20):
What was wonderful about growing up in the art world
is that artists never paid for dinners, never because you're
the artist. And it was amazing. In fact, I think
that's how I grew up in food and in in
an interesting way, it was through the art world. It's
completely different to the film world. I mean, you know
the fact that you you know, you might get a
crappy sandwich, you're you're you're lucky. But in the art world,
(12:43):
it was always the best wines. It was always the
best food. You know, if it was an opening or
even a meeting, it was always the best restaurant. And
that was a huge education. Absolutely. I was thinking about
making movies and the movies you've made, and of course
here we are talking about food and eat king and
the joy of being taken care of through food. And
(13:04):
then I think of the movie that you know, it
was so earth shattering, which was Hunger. And so we're
talking about a movie called Hunger and the state of
hunger and somebody put their principles and politics above comfort
and as a political act actually starved themselves. So what
was it like making a movie that was the absence
(13:26):
of food as a political statement? Um, I mean for me,
it was again it's too is interesting thing, you know.
I related to that in a way, that of being
a child, in the way that you know, often the
only power a child has is refraining to eat his
(13:46):
or her mother saying you're not leaving the table until
you finished that plate and the child sort of refusing
to eat, and then you're sent off to bed, you know.
And it's interesting because you know what the clothes you
wear that as as a said, as a child of
a certain nature, what time you go to bed, what
food you eat is chosen by your parents. And the
(14:08):
whole idea that this child power this child has is
to refrain to eat. That was my relationship in some
ways to Bobby Sands and hunger strike, that the power
that person had was to refrain to eat. Ever since
the it was a child. I remember asking my mom
when I saw this image of Bobby's hands on on
television with a number inath his image, and asking my
mother what, what's what's what is the how old this
person is? Because now that so many days this person
(14:30):
has been on hunger strike. So there was an immediate
relationship with the story. And it was, yeah, it was
it was difficult, but Michael Fan has been the you
know right class is what we said. It was tremendous
and that was a bond of you know we have
to this day. It was a real kind of a
labor of love in a way. What are the food
scenes in your movies? In twelve Years of Slave. There's
(14:50):
a scene, isn't there at the dinner table to remember
there there's lots of I think there's lots of food
in my films. I mean you could see after that
his shame of the two characters Brandon and he sort
of possible girlfriend or at this dinner table, and there's
way to annoying way to comes in every five seconds
to interrupt them. I remember that from having a lots
of dinners in New York and like every five seconds
one becomes in the middle of something was getting bigger.
(15:13):
You know how conversations are. They had to get to
that point. You know, it's always it was commercial buddy
breaks every five seconds. You have to start from the
scratch every five minutes. So it didn't make for re
good eating experience. So I put that in the movie
What do you eat on a film? To do you
hate stopping for lunch when you're filming? No, I think
it's fantastic. I mean, what was so wonderful when I
(15:33):
started filmmaking and they were hunger and shame and to
obvious it's like all the actors on all the crew
will eat together. We did the people in their boody
trailers and in that crap, everyone lead together. There's something
about communal eating and it's about we It's such a
unifying thing to see, you know, the hair and makeup
(15:56):
and the camera department and duwing up the sid and
sitting at the table together and talking about the film
or talking about things, and there's a camaraderie. It's many
time often when you're sort of on set together that
you had that sort of times, you know, is when
you when you're still get the eating and it's fun.
It's it's fun. I love it. Year three is an
(16:25):
exhibition that was at the Tate and I went to
see it three times because every time I went back
I saw something something different in the expression of a
child of a teacher. It really told the story of
the world we live in through these photographs. And one
of the issues that I think is very important is
(16:46):
that when we had the lockdown a year ago, one
of the things we learned that when children were denied school,
they were also denied food, and they were denied food
at lunchtime, which might have been their only meal of
the day. And the idea that we have a society
that children depend on having their food away from the
(17:07):
home because of the poverty in the home is appalling
and shocking and distressing everything else. Yes, absolutely, I mean
I had school, did us, which I paid for by
my mother. That's why even today I like hot meals
and hot lunches. I mean, and they were vital. They
were vital they were children. I know for a fact
(17:28):
that that was the main meal of the day, if
not the only meal of the day. And this is
with our bottle of milk in the morning before Mrs
Thatcher took it away from us. Yeah, I love school
meals in that way. Also, just because we're such a
good laugh in the canteen, you know, I associate food
in school with good times and I can't remember the
(17:49):
smell of it, the canteen and the noise and the
cutlery banging together, and it's so important. You know. Also,
people have to look really tip. They had to markus
Rashford and what he did in the sense of, you know,
getting the government to sort of stand out twice about
the school meals, because you know, again this is you know,
if you can't look after people we can't afford to either,
(18:12):
then I don't know who we are as human beings
that it took a footballer to do. That is kind
of a bit you know. There you go. Everyone has
got a step up in your own way. I suppose
if people aren't doing their job properly, that meaning the government.
And also don't forget this again, it's it's one of
those things I feel that, you know, everyone is unfortunately
not brought into this world equally. But if you just
give someone the possibility a little bit of a shaft
(18:33):
of light, one doesn't know where that might lead them to. So, yeah,
the fact that people actually have a middle in the stomach,
you know in Britain. Yeah, it's it's it's more than important.
One thing I was very shocked by when I was
shooting in Chicago, shooting widows was how I didn't see
a grocery store and a black neighborhood. I didn't see
(18:54):
any greens in a black neighborhood. You know, there wasn't
a green grocers, but there was always some sort of
fast food place where people eat. So people are losing
the sort of heritage of food. People are not aware
of food and nourishment and possibilities within food and food
is politics in a way. It reverts back to what
(19:15):
we were talking about right at the beginning of of
our conversation. It starts with like, in a way markets
because markets, a lot of markets are on the threat,
a lot of markets are closed. So the sense of community,
sense of comaraderie, sense of sort of love of food
and love of each other is being sort of erased
(19:35):
in the sort of you know, working classed areas. I mean,
you get these markets, but there's so they're kind of
like posh markets, aren't they The sort of farmers markets
they call them. And you know, the food is so expensive,
so and and I can I feel that they're becoming
kind of food deserts in a way where kids are
growing up on fast food and not being introduced to
(19:56):
sort of love food in a way. So that's the
which I'm a bit sort of concerned about. Yeah, food
is a connection, and food is a memory, and food
is giving and sharing, and food is political and social
and and it's also comfort. It's something that we go
to and we need comfort. And so I suppose Steve McQueen,
(20:20):
what would you say is the food you would go
to if you needed comfort? For me? The comfort food
that I I very much love and I appreciate. Is
often a cold day, you know, and you come in
and it's my mom's chicken soups, wasting your chicken soup,
which has the bones in it and stuff, you know,
you suck on the bones, and it's the sort of
(20:40):
you know, it's the time, it's the garlic. It's all
kinds of stuff, you know, the secret ingredients she wanted
to want stomach, the dumplings, tatoes, a bit of peas.
It's wonderful. So those are the kind of things I
really love. Yeah, And I could hear my dad's sucking
the bones all right now in my head. It was
a wonderful, you know, having those dinners together on those
(21:04):
cold days. I remember it was. It was beautiful. It
was beautiful. And that's of great memories. My dad's not anymore.
So when I don't often do think about him, I
do think about him. And that's what I do think
about him. Christmas in the ham, oh, of course, and
Christmas Christmas breakfast was a big thing. Hot poco. My
dad would make a bake. A bake is a kind
(21:24):
of a flat bread west in your flat bread in
the morning, and oh my god, how can I how
can I not say this, um um fish cakes. My
mother's fishcakes. Oh my god, my mother's fish cakes on
the Christmas morning and she's making these little bakes which
was sort of like a like a bread but you'll
fry in oil. Oh my god. And even my daughter
(21:47):
is se When my mom comes out, Shelays asked, Cranny,
please make fishcakes for me, because it's a westing in fishcakes.
It's gorgeous. And of course you know that there's never
anything left for me when I can have. But you know,
it's just a think with you. What you've done actually
is actually given me. I mean fact. That's what love
is rock, not even love is rock. That's what the
whole of Small Acts was based on. The foundation of
(22:11):
all of that was based on food and memory, because
it's what's so fascinating. I'm rambling on it again myself.
But the smell is the most in taste, is the
most hopent sources of memory, not the photographs, photographs that
only tell you so much, because you know, it cuts
out what's beyond the frame is not present, it's not visible,
(22:33):
going on, wrapping on. I'll stop myself, no doubt, it's beautiful,
but it is what it does there are people who say,
I never remembered that until we started talking about the food,
and that brought back the memory. I had somebody whose
father had left home and he would when he saw
his children on the weekends, he would suddenly start cooking
(22:54):
for them. And he said, oh, I don't know. I
don't think I've ever told anybody that story, But now
I remember. My father actually is a way of his
guilt or his love just started cooking, you know. And
I think, what you just when you choose your comfort food,
you start thinking about your father and your mother, and
you think about the memories and that It's so potent,
(23:16):
isn't it. I had I thought it would be interesting.
But what it really brings home over and over again,
it's a connection that food has for us, for memories.
Forget about this. I'm telling it. It's done. You've done it, mate,
smell until you've done it. Well, thank you, you've done it.
It's it's all to do with you. To visit the
(23:40):
online shop of The River Cafe, go to shop the
River Cafe dot co dot uk. River Cafe Table four
is a production of I Heart Radio and Adam I Studios.
For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(24:02):
your favorite shows.
Welcome to River Cafe Table for a production of I
Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. Sitting here in the
River Cafe on a Sunday Monday morning, with chefs in
the kitchen making ravioli with your rolls, and waiters laying
(00:20):
tables in the garden, the uncertain world we live in
feels miles away. The artist and filmmaker Steve McQueen does
not separate the world of beauty and the world of
suffering in any of his work political oppression, slavery, sexual inequality.
(00:40):
Steve and I met when he won the Turner Prize
for his radical video art, and we once had dinner
together with President Obama. It was clear that the only
person President Obama was interested in talking to was Steve McQueen,
and he didn't want to share him with anyone. Now,
(01:01):
a few years later, I finally have Steve McQueen all
to myself, and being a generous person, will share him
with you. Steve and I share a hero in Paul Robeson.
We share the same concerns for equality and justice and food,
(01:22):
and today we're going to talk all about that and more.
Thank you, Steve, Thank you for inviting me. Tell me
about growing up in London. You lived with your parents
in West London and what did you eat? Yeah, we
grew up. I grew up in a firstly shoveled bush,
West London. My relationship with food really starts with the market.
(01:44):
I was the kid who was carrying the bags behind
their mother because basically I would have to go with
her because you know, I was a sort of extra
pair of hands to carry the shopping back home. Food
was a way of actually getting to go London because
if someone said to my mother there's you know, you
could get so and so sea beast in this market
for this amount of money, she will be there. So
(02:06):
people you should talk about where can they get particularly
kind of food and fresh produce. Now, where was your
mother born? My mother was born in Trinidad, but she
grew up in in Grenada, and my father was born
in Ingrenada. How old were they when they came to London?
But my mother was about fourteen fifteen and throughout fifteen
when she came to London, I think in the early sixties,
(02:27):
and my father was a little bit older. I think
maybe he was about twenty one. I don't know when.
I think he came early succeeds too, but not not
at the same time. And so do you think her
mother had taken her to the market. As you say,
the market does introduce us to a culture, it introduces
us to a city. It's the first place I always
go when I go to any town in any city
(02:47):
in any country. But tell me more about the smells
of the market and what it looked like for you
and and your mother's experience of the market. Well, in fact,
what happened was that a lot of rajoity of people
for coming from West India Headland, and they grew their
own food, you know, and look after you know, the
animals and so forth and whatnot. And fishing was a
big part of the culture too, because obviously my mother
(03:10):
lived on on the coast inlat a place course it
tiers and a very big fishing spot there, you know,
it's kind of fishing village. Food was very much directly
sort of to do who with who they were. So
when they came to London, of course looking for good
food was very important. And you know we used to
go to all kinds of bloody markets all over London.
I so, I said, I beat up with it, I said,
(03:31):
missed me football, focus on the satellite because that to
go to the market of my mom. It was something
which I remember. There was all different cultures, you know
it was, didn't you You had the sort of you know,
the Londoners and the white Londoners that the Indian, you have,
the Jewish, you had all kinds of people. Was fabulous.
It was really kind of cool. Tone. My knew would
come home from the market. What would you eat? What
(03:52):
would they cook from the market? Oh so if you
get dash in you know, spinage, you know again you
know you cook. I mean my my my favorite was
like a nice stew chicken and that special thing. I'm
roty just you know, my gods, what was it? A
beautiful It's like a nice stewfish and I just love
(04:14):
what was this? There's one thing I used to not
very much. It was it was a vegetable? What was it?
It was? Ok? I love, ok, I love. Yeah. It
was all kinds of exotic stuff. I mean, I say,
he's on it because it was familiar to me. But
my friends, my white friendt or what was that was? This?
Was this? Yeah? Cooked in the house. My mother cooked,
my father cooked. My father was a good cooked too.
(04:35):
He took pride in the Christmas ham. That was his job.
There was a particular way of cooking came from because
he's uncle with a butcher in the West Indes, so
there was a particular way of cooking the ham. I
can't even prescribe it now, but it's close all into
indented in all everywhere. It was almost like sort of
it's never are a movie. Um gorgeous was his marvelous? Yeah?
(04:58):
Great cooks, great cooks. Did you cook with them? Was
it a family affair? Would you all cook together? I mean,
I love being with my mother in the kitchen because
somehow I love to help out. I love to sort
of be I don't know, I love to love that.
So I can't say that I'm a great cook, but
I was a very good shoes chef, a bit of
an eat and tidy person. What they entertained when friends
(05:20):
come over? Was there that feeling when people did come over,
it was it was a lot of family and friend
and well, I think most of the things I used
to do when the people come up for them would
just listen because there was always always that would come
out that my parents will never talk to us about,
of course, but always because adults will talk to adults,
so that if we find out about sort of how
what was going on on when you left this very
(05:43):
comforting family meals where you were cooked for and you
ate together. What was that like when you left home?
Where did you live? I was actually near you, guys,
Actually I was. I was in Fulham. I was just
around the corner from me. I was with his girlfriend
and she was great. It was a very put important
girlfriend of mine and her name was a Nuke. She
was a Swiss. And then she had discovered this restaurant,
(06:07):
this place called Malati, the Indonesian place and so, which
was delicious, It was gorgeous, and that was my first restaurant,
and she that was your first restaurant. That was one
of my first restaurants. Yeah, I was. I was thinking
was about nineteen years old. And after that the restaurant
has become part of your social life. Did you love restaurants? Absolutely?
I mean, what's great about I mean now, I suppose
(06:28):
in London it wasn't so when when I was growing up,
we didn't have that was the world, I think. And
to be introduced to the world through food and of
course good company, that's always the main ingredient for for
going to a restaurant. So that was wonderful. And then
we got to know, so we've got a lot of restaurants,
and so we got to know. I remember during that time,
it's early nineties, early early nineties. Yeah, and also in
(06:51):
the East End to Yeah, what about an arts school?
Was that revelation? Yeah? I mean, you know, cannon bitter
cheese ladio and that gets I mean that was that
was kind of like interesting because again there wasn't an
addition to Westing this cheese. I mean those cheese. I
it was crappy cheese. You know, you can imagine a
sort of a big block of something which they called cheese.
(07:13):
But getting to them cheese was interesting during my time
foundation at Chelsea. I mean, it's a kind of interesting
life change, isn't it between this going to the market
with your mother and carrying the bag and coming home
and cooking and then sitting and down and eating and
then having independence and having to fend for yourself and
discover life out there. Did you go home? Would you
(07:36):
return home for the home cooked meal? Yes? I used
to love going home for food. My goodness, I said,
oh well, my goodness, I still love it. It's just
it's just a sort of Yeah. It was difficult because
I went first. It was how do I cook? What
do I cook? I was on the phone with my mom.
How do I do this? My moth, I do this,
(07:56):
it's my moth, I do that. So a lot of
calls about me can sort of soups and things like that,
and how do I season? And because I can't. For granted,
I said to be the shoe ship, but I wasn't
really looking, it wasn't really studying. Yeah, so yeah, a
lot of phone calls. Basically back onund Welcome Back to
(08:21):
River Cafe, Table four. In each episode, my guest reads
a recipe they have chosen from one of our cookbooks.
We chose spinach and peas. So would you like to
go for it and tell the world how to make it?
One ram fresh peas in their pods, extra virgin olive oil,
(08:45):
one garlic clothes peel and diced, one dried red chili crumbled,
one kilogram of spinach, washed, tough storks, removed how had
the piece and blanched them in plenty of boiling water.
In Italy, no one ever cooks vegetables out. The only
(09:07):
past it. So rather than blanching these peas, boil them
so that they almost melt together with spinach and the
olive oil gorgeous. So now, Steve, here we are and
we're going to talk about the series that has just
been on television that we've all watched and been so
(09:29):
moved by. Small acts. You tell the story of a
local restaurant constantly harassed by the police. Is that a memory?
Is that story? Can you tell me about the restaurant,
the politics and the series. Sure? Well, the Mangrove Restaurant
was a restaurant run by Frank Krislow in Lambert Grove
(09:49):
on All Saints Row, and he opened a restaurant in
and it was a sort of home away from home restaurant.
You can imagine, as I said before, all the people
on English sort of the taste of home, and that
had a vibrancy of having sort of like many people
wanted to sort of come to a place to eat
and the sort of commune with each other. So it
(10:10):
was a place of refuge in it in a way.
You know, the vibe that the vibe that came out
of there, and it was just one of those places
which became very infectious if people wanted to go it
was it was it was some English was which was
which was on the scene, and unfortunately the police and
the authorities that be obviously didn't like what was happening
at this place because again it was you know, it
(10:33):
was people from the west Inndiers, it was working class people,
it was the thinkers, it was sort of activists were
coming there. And also the why ploy so all these
people coming to this spot and talking over food, having
ideas and obviously that was something which the authorities didn't like,
and therefore they tried to disrupt disruptive as much as
(10:54):
they could. You know, it was a case of the
people not wanting certain ideas having a foothold in UK,
and they thought that the Mangrove was a place where
those ideas could sort of take root. There's something about
doing that kind of discussion as well over food, and
one of the things that I see in the restaurant
as that somehow being out of your house, being away
(11:15):
from your domestic life, being looked after, gives you the
chance to really focus on a conversation. Do you find
that in a restaurant, Absolutely absolutely, And there's a sense
of I don't know what is it purpose, you're there,
you're pregnant, there's another person there and present. But also
actually just to listen. It's just a case of being
(11:39):
in an environment where you are you know, you feel
comfortable in order to say things and and and listen.
And also I've talked to various people in business and
in film and creating movies or making deals. I mean
when I always quote is Michael Caine who said that
he never did a deal for a movie in America
(11:59):
that and take place in a restaurant, And he said
that was very Hollywood. Do you work in restaurants? Do
you'd like to meet people that you're going to work
with in a restaurant? First, I love it, but that
doesn't happen often. I mean, I think it's sort of
it's a classy way to do anything, isn't it. And
also I love it because growing up in the art world.
(12:20):
What was wonderful about growing up in the art world
is that artists never paid for dinners, never because you're
the artist. And it was amazing. In fact, I think
that's how I grew up in food and in in
an interesting way, it was through the art world. It's
completely different to the film world. I mean, you know
the fact that you you know, you might get a
crappy sandwich, you're you're you're lucky. But in the art world,
(12:43):
it was always the best wines. It was always the
best food. You know, if it was an opening or
even a meeting, it was always the best restaurant. And
that was a huge education. Absolutely. I was thinking about
making movies and the movies you've made, and of course
here we are talking about food and eat king and
the joy of being taken care of through food. And
(13:04):
then I think of the movie that you know, it
was so earth shattering, which was Hunger. And so we're
talking about a movie called Hunger and the state of
hunger and somebody put their principles and politics above comfort
and as a political act actually starved themselves. So what
was it like making a movie that was the absence
(13:26):
of food as a political statement? Um, I mean for me,
it was again it's too is interesting thing, you know.
I related to that in a way, that of being
a child, in the way that you know, often the
only power a child has is refraining to eat his
(13:46):
or her mother saying you're not leaving the table until
you finished that plate and the child sort of refusing
to eat, and then you're sent off to bed, you know.
And it's interesting because you know what the clothes you
wear that as as a said, as a child of
a certain nature, what time you go to bed, what
food you eat is chosen by your parents. And the
(14:08):
whole idea that this child power this child has is
to refrain to eat. That was my relationship in some
ways to Bobby Sands and hunger strike, that the power
that person had was to refrain to eat. Ever since
the it was a child. I remember asking my mom
when I saw this image of Bobby's hands on on
television with a number inath his image, and asking my
mother what, what's what's what is the how old this
person is? Because now that so many days this person
(14:30):
has been on hunger strike. So there was an immediate
relationship with the story. And it was, yeah, it was
it was difficult, but Michael Fan has been the you
know right class is what we said. It was tremendous
and that was a bond of you know we have
to this day. It was a real kind of a
labor of love in a way. What are the food
scenes in your movies? In twelve Years of Slave. There's
(14:50):
a scene, isn't there at the dinner table to remember
there there's lots of I think there's lots of food
in my films. I mean you could see after that
his shame of the two characters Brandon and he sort
of possible girlfriend or at this dinner table, and there's
way to annoying way to comes in every five seconds
to interrupt them. I remember that from having a lots
of dinners in New York and like every five seconds
one becomes in the middle of something was getting bigger.
(15:13):
You know how conversations are. They had to get to
that point. You know, it's always it was commercial buddy
breaks every five seconds. You have to start from the
scratch every five minutes. So it didn't make for re
good eating experience. So I put that in the movie
What do you eat on a film? To do you
hate stopping for lunch when you're filming? No, I think
it's fantastic. I mean, what was so wonderful when I
(15:33):
started filmmaking and they were hunger and shame and to
obvious it's like all the actors on all the crew
will eat together. We did the people in their boody
trailers and in that crap, everyone lead together. There's something
about communal eating and it's about we It's such a
unifying thing to see, you know, the hair and makeup
(15:56):
and the camera department and duwing up the sid and
sitting at the table together and talking about the film
or talking about things, and there's a camaraderie. It's many
time often when you're sort of on set together that
you had that sort of times, you know, is when
you when you're still get the eating and it's fun.
It's it's fun. I love it. Year three is an
(16:25):
exhibition that was at the Tate and I went to
see it three times because every time I went back
I saw something something different in the expression of a
child of a teacher. It really told the story of
the world we live in through these photographs. And one
of the issues that I think is very important is
(16:46):
that when we had the lockdown a year ago, one
of the things we learned that when children were denied school,
they were also denied food, and they were denied food
at lunchtime, which might have been their only meal of
the day. And the idea that we have a society
that children depend on having their food away from the
(17:07):
home because of the poverty in the home is appalling
and shocking and distressing everything else. Yes, absolutely, I mean
I had school, did us, which I paid for by
my mother. That's why even today I like hot meals
and hot lunches. I mean, and they were vital. They
were vital they were children. I know for a fact
(17:28):
that that was the main meal of the day, if
not the only meal of the day. And this is
with our bottle of milk in the morning before Mrs
Thatcher took it away from us. Yeah, I love school
meals in that way. Also, just because we're such a
good laugh in the canteen, you know, I associate food
in school with good times and I can't remember the
(17:49):
smell of it, the canteen and the noise and the
cutlery banging together, and it's so important. You know. Also,
people have to look really tip. They had to markus
Rashford and what he did in the sense of, you know,
getting the government to sort of stand out twice about
the school meals, because you know, again this is you know,
if you can't look after people we can't afford to either,
(18:12):
then I don't know who we are as human beings
that it took a footballer to do. That is kind
of a bit you know. There you go. Everyone has
got a step up in your own way. I suppose
if people aren't doing their job properly, that meaning the government.
And also don't forget this again, it's it's one of
those things I feel that, you know, everyone is unfortunately
not brought into this world equally. But if you just
give someone the possibility a little bit of a shaft
(18:33):
of light, one doesn't know where that might lead them to. So, yeah,
the fact that people actually have a middle in the stomach,
you know in Britain. Yeah, it's it's it's more than important.
One thing I was very shocked by when I was
shooting in Chicago, shooting widows was how I didn't see
a grocery store and a black neighborhood. I didn't see
(18:54):
any greens in a black neighborhood. You know, there wasn't
a green grocers, but there was always some sort of
fast food place where people eat. So people are losing
the sort of heritage of food. People are not aware
of food and nourishment and possibilities within food and food
is politics in a way. It reverts back to what
(19:15):
we were talking about right at the beginning of of
our conversation. It starts with like, in a way markets
because markets, a lot of markets are on the threat,
a lot of markets are closed. So the sense of community,
sense of comaraderie, sense of sort of love of food
and love of each other is being sort of erased
(19:35):
in the sort of you know, working classed areas. I mean,
you get these markets, but there's so they're kind of
like posh markets, aren't they The sort of farmers markets
they call them. And you know, the food is so expensive,
so and and I can I feel that they're becoming
kind of food deserts in a way where kids are
growing up on fast food and not being introduced to
(19:56):
sort of love food in a way. So that's the
which I'm a bit sort of concerned about. Yeah, food
is a connection, and food is a memory, and food
is giving and sharing, and food is political and social
and and it's also comfort. It's something that we go
to and we need comfort. And so I suppose Steve McQueen,
(20:20):
what would you say is the food you would go
to if you needed comfort? For me? The comfort food
that I I very much love and I appreciate. Is
often a cold day, you know, and you come in
and it's my mom's chicken soups, wasting your chicken soup,
which has the bones in it and stuff, you know,
you suck on the bones, and it's the sort of
(20:40):
you know, it's the time, it's the garlic. It's all
kinds of stuff, you know, the secret ingredients she wanted
to want stomach, the dumplings, tatoes, a bit of peas.
It's wonderful. So those are the kind of things I
really love. Yeah, And I could hear my dad's sucking
the bones all right now in my head. It was
a wonderful, you know, having those dinners together on those
(21:04):
cold days. I remember it was. It was beautiful. It
was beautiful. And that's of great memories. My dad's not anymore.
So when I don't often do think about him, I
do think about him. And that's what I do think
about him. Christmas in the ham, oh, of course, and
Christmas Christmas breakfast was a big thing. Hot poco. My
dad would make a bake. A bake is a kind
(21:24):
of a flat bread west in your flat bread in
the morning, and oh my god, how can I how
can I not say this, um um fish cakes. My
mother's fishcakes. Oh my god, my mother's fish cakes on
the Christmas morning and she's making these little bakes which
was sort of like a like a bread but you'll
fry in oil. Oh my god. And even my daughter
(21:47):
is se When my mom comes out, Shelays asked, Cranny,
please make fishcakes for me, because it's a westing in fishcakes.
It's gorgeous. And of course you know that there's never
anything left for me when I can have. But you know,
it's just a think with you. What you've done actually
is actually given me. I mean fact. That's what love
is rock, not even love is rock. That's what the
whole of Small Acts was based on. The foundation of
(22:11):
all of that was based on food and memory, because
it's what's so fascinating. I'm rambling on it again myself.
But the smell is the most in taste, is the
most hopent sources of memory, not the photographs, photographs that
only tell you so much, because you know, it cuts
out what's beyond the frame is not present, it's not visible,
(22:33):
going on, wrapping on. I'll stop myself, no doubt, it's beautiful,
but it is what it does there are people who say,
I never remembered that until we started talking about the food,
and that brought back the memory. I had somebody whose
father had left home and he would when he saw
his children on the weekends, he would suddenly start cooking
(22:54):
for them. And he said, oh, I don't know. I
don't think I've ever told anybody that story, But now
I remember. My father actually is a way of his
guilt or his love just started cooking, you know. And
I think, what you just when you choose your comfort food,
you start thinking about your father and your mother, and
you think about the memories and that It's so potent,
(23:16):
isn't it. I had I thought it would be interesting.
But what it really brings home over and over again,
it's a connection that food has for us, for memories.
Forget about this. I'm telling it. It's done. You've done it, mate,
smell until you've done it. Well, thank you, you've done it.
It's it's all to do with you. To visit the
(23:40):
online shop of The River Cafe, go to shop the
River Cafe dot co dot uk. River Cafe Table four
is a production of I Heart Radio and Adam I Studios.
For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(24:02):
your favorite shows.
Host
Ruth Rogers
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