October 7, 2020 • 40 mins
In episode 5 of our special, six-part series, Getting to Equal, Amena Brown, spoken-word poet, author and creator of the podcast HER with Amena Brown, and Tara Jaye Frank, consultant, speaker, author, and CEO of TJF Career Modeling, talk to Carolyn Tastad, Group President, North America and Deanna Bass, Vice President, Global Diversity, Equality and Inclusion—both of P&G. Their discussion focuses on how companies and individuals can create workplaces where all people can thrive to their full potential.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, This is Malan vervare and this is Kim Azarelli.
We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose, and you're listening to
Seneca's conversations on power and Purpose. Welcome to this special edition.
(00:24):
This new six part series called Getting to Equal will
change the way you think about women and leadership, and
it comes at a time when women's leadership has never
been more crucial. We have two amazing leaders who are
guest hosting these six episodes, Carol and Tastad, Group President
North America and Diana Bass, Vice President Global Diversity, Equality
(00:45):
and Inclusion, both from PNG, one of the largest consumer
goods companies in the world. Together, Caroline and Diana have
created an impressive gender equality strategy for PNG, and it's
a strategy that's really breaking new ground on these issues
in the private sector. And they'll be joined by incredible
guests from all walks of life. In today's episode of
Getting to Equal, Caroline and Diana talk about racial equality
(01:08):
and the path to getting there in the workplace and
in the world, and they have two amazing guests, spoken
word poet, author and podcaster Amina Brown and author, consultant
and speaker Tara J. Frank Caroline, Indiana. I'm so glad
you could join us again today and I'm really looking
forward to this conversation. Thank you, Kim, and hello everyone,
(01:29):
Welcome to this episode of Getting to Equal. We have
such a special conversation today with two incredible women. Amina
Brown is a spoken word poet, author, and performing artist
whose work inter weaves keep It Real, storytelling, rhyme, and humor.
(01:50):
Through her weekly podcast, Her with Amina Brown, Amina centers
and elevates the voices, stories and experiences of Black, Indigenous,
Asian and Latin X women. Tara J. Frank is a
sought after consultant, speaker and author. Through her company t
(02:11):
j F Career Modeling, she helps leaders and organizations define
a vision and develop strategies to advance their culture and
leadership goals. Tara is also the visionary behind hashtag more
Than a Movement and not for profit to facilitate deeper
understanding between disconnected people. Amina and Tara, I'm so happy
(02:36):
to have you here, Welcome to our podcast. Thanks for
having me, happy to be here. Thank you so much
for joining us today. You know, Tara PNGNG, we've been
working with you on a couple of fronts, including the
Open Doors program, which is all about accelerating progress for
multicultural women within the workplace. And through that work, you
shared with us a really interesting analogy that gives us
(02:58):
a framework for how to think about this. Can you
share that analogy with us? Absolutely? And you know, one
of the things we often talk about when we just
have the discussion around women and work is how do
we need to better equip them to succeed? But the
way I think about this is there's there's the vine right,
which might be the individual woman or employee, But there's
(03:20):
also the vineyard, which to me is the micro culture, right,
the company culture, the systems, etcetera. Um. And thirdly, there's
the climate, the macro climate, which is really society, you know,
and what's going on outside of our workplaces, in our
lives are daily lives. Chara, Let's go a little deeper
(03:41):
on that, because I think the analogy is a great one,
But that whole notion of the individual, the workplace and
society and the community around let's just take that a
little deeper. Yeah, for sure. Now is honestly such an
interesting time to be having a conversation like this because
you know, I've been in women's leadership work for quite
a few years now, um, and the one thing I've
(04:02):
been saying for a while is, you know, this is
not this is not about just developing women. It's not
about um, teaching them how to you know, develop executive presence.
You know, it's not just about helping them to devise
their personal development plan. That's that's one thing, um and
(04:26):
certainly necessary, but it can't do much to break through
a system or a culture that is so fibrous that
it's essentially preventing them from breaking through to higher levels
of leadership. And so that you know, the vineyard is
really to me, is the soil fertile right? Is the
soil fertile for those women to pride and to grow
(04:47):
and to continue to succeed or is it essentially kind
of choking out that potential right unconsciously sometimes? And then
to your point, you think about the climate around that,
in the conditions that we're all seeing around us today
in terms of social justice, and that puts even more
pressure on the individual in terms of everything that they're
coping with, we're dealing with, and uh, it makes it
(05:09):
even more difficult. Yeah, it's an added burden, you know.
For sure. I always say that we walk into work.
Well these days, of course, we don't walk into work.
We call into work. But you know, we show up
at work as human beings first, you know, and employees
and leaders second. UM. And so the the human piece
(05:30):
of this is that none of us can detach ourselves
from what's going on in our everyday lives, from what's
happening with our families, from what's happening you know, on
the television and politics in the world in general, and
so we all kind of carry that weight with us
wherever we go. You know, they always say wherever you go,
(05:51):
there you are. UM. And these days, especially as we
kind of talk about race in America for multicultural women,
for black women specifically, UM, all of that comes with
us everywhere we go. So that climate is really I
think changing what what the responsibility of companies and company cultures,
UM is kind of involving to be right now, that's
(06:15):
such great work, Tara. You know, it's been really important
to us at PNG as you've come in and spread
your magic around the walls of PNG. It's been amazing.
I wanna, UM, I want to introduce Amina now, and Amina,
you are spoken word poet, an author, a podcaster, and
(06:38):
we had the chance to host you in Cincinnati at
an International Women's Day event this year, and I have
to tell you, you you closed out this event that we
had with one of your spoken word poems and we
got to the end of what you said, and the
there were three fifty of us in the audience, and
(06:59):
there was this active Do I jump up in uproarious
applause or do I sit in silent awe at what
just came out of you? And I think we collectively
all had the pause and then the eruption. It was
one of the most beautiful things I have ever witnessed.
So I am so happy to have you here. That's
(07:20):
my little love letter to you today. I received that.
So tell us a little bit about your work about
you know, the work that you do is really centered
on elevating the voices of women of color. Yeah, someone
asked me. I get this question all the time, people say,
you know, how do you find hope right now? And
I always say, I find hope in the work of
(07:42):
women of color, because if we're looking in our workspaces
and our communal spaces, anywhere we look where there's good
being done, so much of that work is being led
by women of color. So I wanted to sort of
have a platform of my own where I could say,
here's a place where I can elevate the stories of
women who get to tell their own stories in their
(08:05):
own voices, who are the experts, who are the people
who know and instead of them being sort of pushed
back to the side or being on the outskirts of
a situation and sort of yelling in the back. You know.
I mean, I've been in a lot of rooms where
I looked around and when where are the women of color?
And it's not the women of color are hard to find.
It's not that the women of color aren't leading, it's
(08:26):
that they are not getting the microphone as much as
they should. So for me, that's very central in my
writing as well as obviously very central to my podcast.
I was like, you know, i'd have to wait for
anybody to give me a microphone. I'm gonna grab a
mic and give it to the women that I want
to have the microphone. And that is podcasting as book
word poetry in essence. I you know, it's um in Uh.
(08:49):
First of all, after I saw you back in March
and then just in preparation of having this conversation, I
U have been, you know, a student of her with
Amina Brown. It's just really amazing work and beautiful stories
that you're allowing to come forward and allowing, you know,
people to sit in and listen and learn. Um in
(09:12):
these really crazy times that were in Yeah, I think
it's been really important to me too to make sure
that women of color and marginalized women are not tokenized
in the process. UM. So sure, I could have just
brought a black woman on and say, here, tell me
what it's like to be a black woman, but she's
also an entrepreneur, or she's also a business owner, or
(09:35):
she's also in the C suite. You know, there's so
many experiences that women of color have and I want
to hear from them as as the experts, as the
people with knowledge, and that gives us an opportunity to
sit in front of them and learn. And I think
that is a beautiful thing. I think that is also justice.
You know, when we were um talking about doing this
(09:57):
podcast together, the four of us, um uh, kind of
working through what where did we want the center of
this podcast to be? And you both talked about the
amazing experience of being a black woman leader in this
moment in time. UM. I mean I think the words
that you used were UM, rooted in community, uh, challenging, hopeful. UM.
(10:24):
I'd love to talk a little bit more about that,
because I think there's something for all of us to
learn in what the two of you are experiencing right now.
I think one of the things I think about is,
you know, Tara and I were first meeting. Even though
I knew of her work, I didn't know her until
that day we were meeting there in Cincinnati, and it
was beautiful to me just to see her as a
(10:46):
black woman thriving and to learn from her and to
watch her lead. And then after that when she said
she and I both graduated from Spellman College, I just
could have jumped out of all of my skin. I
was so happy about that, you know. And I think
when I think about my time at Spellman and even
before going to Spellman, thinking about the black women who
were leading in my community, the black women who lead
(11:08):
in my family, you know, it is it is those
women that came before me. It is the heritage and
the legacy of the women who come before me that
give me the confidence, the hope, the courage to be
myself in the spaces that I am in now. So
that was this beautiful, serendipitous moment for me to see
(11:29):
my sister as a fellow black woman, to see my
sister as a spellman sister. And I think that's a
part of what thriving right now is to me. It's
it's women being in community together. It's deciding we do
this together. We build each other up, we encourage each other,
you know, Yeah, I love that. One of my one
of the things I've been thinking about lately is the
(11:50):
fact that we've been talking for a long time, right,
We've been sharing stories and sharing ideas and are in
content right trying to inform and inspire, um certainly educate
for years. But people are listening in new ways right now,
you know, which for me makes it all the more
(12:13):
important that what we're saying count um. And so in
my opinion, you know, I've been the most bold, honestly
with my language, right, with my calls to action, um,
with my accountability conversation. I've been more bold over these
last few months than I think I've ever been. And
(12:33):
I never considered myself shy, right or I never thought
of myself as kind of holding back, but it's one
of those things where where the light when the light
is on you for that period of time, because I mean,
let's be honest, we don't know how long this particular
light is going to last. Right where I think all
of us are kind of sitting back like hopefully this
is a movement and not a moment, but hard to note. Um,
(12:57):
So while we're in this space together, there are some
things that need to be said right and a lot
of people who need to hear them. So that's that's
kind of part of the stepping into this moment, I think,
as well, and doing so as as courageously as humanly possible.
So Tara, I love this notion of listening in new
ways and listening right now and taking advantage of the
(13:18):
moment that is now. And from a P and G side,
we want equality for all women and we see this
as the responsibility of all leaders to deliver that. Uh.
And when we talk about all women we want to
make we we think about that from a multicultural standpoint
in LGBTQ, people with disabilities in any way and in
(13:38):
any spirit, in how somebody would identify themselves and define themselves.
And this notion of having a really courageous conversation right
now and really addressing um, I'll go back to the
vineyard analogy, but addressing the culture, addressing conditions in the
environment that exists in order to make the those conditions
(14:01):
UM conducive to change into advancement and development of multicultural
women within the workplace. How do we drive that accountability?
You know, what are the conversations in your mind that
we need to be having more overtly today now, taking
advantage of this moment and driving that, driving that sense
(14:22):
of accountability to make real and meaningful progress. Such a
good question, Caroline, And honestly, I'm trying to tease apart,
you know, the bugs that are popping into my head
right now and in response to that frame, because there
are so many important ideas there. I think one critical
idea is this whole um concept of kind of the
fence that are right. Any time we're in the midst
(14:45):
of some kind of major change, there are always people
who are on the front end of that change, you know,
let's go, I'm ready. There are always people on the
other end of that change, digging their heels in right
kind of more of a preservation mental city, really trying
to protect themselves, their power, their position. And then there
are usually a bunch of people in the middle, quite honestly,
(15:07):
who I think historically have have sat there and observed
what's going on in the world right maybe relative to
the lack of equal opportunity, and potentially, you know, felt
empathetic toward folks who were who were being marginalized, but
not necessarily that they were responsible for being part of
that transformation. And so for me, one of the encouraging
(15:30):
things is there are a lot more people who have
been sitting on the fence, and again I'm not suggesting
it's malicious, but sitting on the fence as a bystander,
who are realizing now that standing by is not a
strategy for change um and that they have to be
as responsible for this evolution as women are right, as
(15:50):
as black women have been, as women of color have been.
The other piece of this is we have got to
change our leadership definition right, how we define leadership and
how we hold people accountable. Because the work ahead of us,
in my mind, is not simply diversity work. It's not
simply inclusion work or equity work. It's leadership work and
(16:14):
and the fact that many companies have had for years,
and I know you know this to be true. It's
it's true in most companies I work with back in
the day, right, they have two or three people who
make up their diversity team who were supposed to write
create somehow magically equal opportunity for the thousands on thousands
(16:34):
of people in the organization. That's not their job alone
to do. I mean, that's ridiculous when you think about it. Right,
So this is leadership responsibility. Then we wonder why we
don't make progress exactly because it is the role of
all leaders. It has to be the work of all leaders. Yes,
And it's really you know, we all talk about building
(16:57):
the very best team using all of the available talent,
not part of the talent available. And it's so important
because we know time and time and time again, when
we do that, everything gets better. Everything gets better, the
culture gets better, the workplace gets better, the relationships build,
the business gets better. Everything gets better. Absolutely, And I
(17:19):
mean give us your perspective on that. I mean, I
I just agree with Tara On on the idea that
this is going to require some work, especially for the
people who are in the most empowered and the most
privileged of positions. It's going to require some strategy. I
(17:40):
think it's really important. That's how I used that word.
I think in sentiment, you know, especially when you know
I joke with a lot of my friends when you
know we were starting to see this you know, global uprising,
this national uprising of justice happening, uh in America. You know,
it's like, oh man, some people just woke up today
and we're like, America, wait, things, things that are racist
(18:02):
are happening here, Like we are just waking Oh my gosh,
I can't believe this place is racist. So then some
people felt like, oh, I get in my feelings. I
don't want to be racist. I don't want to be
a part of things that are racist. And those are
good feelings to start with, but it's not the place
to end there with how our feelings are and that
(18:25):
we want to cry. There are things going on that
do make us cry, But if we don't have strategy
for how we are actually going to affect change, then
all we've done is cry, and we've just wiped our
eyes and we've moved on, and the people whose voices
should be heard are still not being heard. The people
who have been railing against things and wanting things to
(18:47):
change long before it was in vogue to say so,
have been yelling in the back. We haven't been listening
to them. So it is a question of if we
are in leadership, what is our strategy? And I would
say uh to white leaders as well, to think about
this in a business sense, what is the business strategy?
If you're truly saying well, we better put up our
(19:08):
anti racist statement on social media, well what's the strategy
behind that? And then will you do that personally? Also,
because if you go into work and you say, well,
I want to have a strategy that I want this
to be a more equitable place, but you don't find
yourself being equitable in the other areas of your life,
then that will also come to bear. You know. We
(19:30):
need to do both of them, Yeah, for sure. And
I do know too, you know, because I I work
with mostly white people. Honestly, you know, day in and
day out, who are I think trying to get educated
quite frankly right about what's going on in America, the
history of race in America, the impact of racism in
(19:52):
America through the centuries, And I can appreciate that. But
one of the one of the things I say to
them is, you know, this is to your point. I mean,
and this is about what's now what do we do now? Right?
This is about your role in our shared evolution, and
you have to have a role and it has to
(20:13):
be active. So one of the things that I took
people all the time is your good intent is not enough.
Like I can't tell you how many lovely, warm, sweet
folks I've talked to over the years who say, well,
we don't really feel like we need to set targets
to achieve representation or that you know, that's not really
on brand for us. Um, we believe we know what
(20:34):
we need to do. We need to make progress and
change and we're going to do that. Everyone's heart is
in the right place, And I said, this has nothing
to do with your heart, like it's you know, it's
great to have a good heart, But a business imperative
has teeth. We we all know this, right where businesswomen,
you've never set a customer goal for instance, right, or
(20:57):
an r OI goal and just said, we all want
to increase that r o I as high as we
possibly can, and because we care about doing it, we're
just going to care our way to that goal in
a year from now, we're gonna feel great about our outcomes.
That's not how that works. We all know it right now.
You're you're so right, Tara, You're so right. I mean,
(21:20):
I love what you just said. We can't care our
way to a new reality. We have to be intentional.
We say that all the time. Intentionality is so important.
We have to provide opportunities, experiences, development for our total
talent pool. And then we have to hold ourselves accountable
to the goals that we set, just as we would
(21:42):
with any business strategy. And we know that when we
do that, good things happen. And that's leadership it is.
You know, we have very talented leaders in our company, Black, Hispanic, Asian, American,
many others with huge responsibilities running big businesses, having in
no mist impact. And importantly, we've declared our aspiration to
(22:04):
have multicultural representation at every level of our company in
the US. I was there. I was there. It was
a beautiful day to hear you say it out loud
in front of everybody. You were there, and it was
a great day. And we know it's important. We have
the most diverse leadership in our company history and our
business has never been stronger. As we've increased the diversity
(22:24):
of our leadership, our culture stronger, we're more inclusive. Do
we have more to do, for sure, but we're making
great progress. You have proof points. I mean you as
an organization have proof points. This is not a guessing
game for you, right This is not a wing and
a prayer, absolutely not proven strategy. We'll be back after
(22:48):
this break. So I want to I want to shift
gears just ever so slightly here and I wanted to
this again is coming back to some of the conversations
that we were having in preparation for this conversation. And
(23:10):
you know, after the deaths of George Floyd and Brianna
Taylor and so many other black men and women really
this past spring, Tar you said earlier, suddenly white people
were paying attention that there's a there's a spotlight right now.
And I would agree with you, and there's probably a
lot of reasons why the spotlight is so bright right now,
(23:32):
but you all you two also talked about the impact
of of the white population reaching out to you personally,
to the black community with questions like what what can
I do? What should I do UM? And you had
really I think meaningful responses to that, I'd love for
(23:53):
you to share. UM. It's a it's a lot of
lawyers when I think about this question, because A is
in the moment of the murders of George Floyd and
Brianna Taylor. It was a lot of multitasking. It's a
lot of anger and grief in my own body and
my own fears and thoughts about what it means for
(24:16):
me to be asleep in my home or what it
means for me to be out doing what is a
normal thing, and that I could be murdered in the
same way that so many black people have been murdered.
So it's carrying that. It's that layer. It's the other
black people who are in community with me, who are
also grieving and angry and some numb and not even
(24:39):
knowing how to process all of it. It's getting those calls, right.
So then on top of that, to be getting texts
or calls from white people asking what can I do
UM that may seem like a very simple question to
them can be additional burden for me. So what I've
had to learn, first of all, is that there are
(25:00):
some white people in my life that I have that
I've earned the trust with me. But I'll have to say,
even after we talked about this, I thought about it,
and I said, all of the white people in my
life who I trust, who earned the trust with me,
their texts and calls said, can I help you? How
can I support you? Right now? Tell me what you need?
(25:20):
Is it? Is it food I can send to your house.
I wish the world weren't like this. Can I can
I send you something in your cash app? I literally
had those kind of texts. So actually, the white people
in my life who have earned trust with me didn't
ask me to do anything for them. Now, there were
white people in my life who may have been work
colleagues or we had more tangential type relationship, and I
(25:43):
did get some of those messages, and for me, I
had to say, I cannot answer that question for you
right now because I am too full of grief. Yeah,
and so I here, I might have a couple of
things here, maybe start with this organization here, may be
look through these things, but I just have to sit
(26:04):
in this grief right now. So I cannot be the
teacher and I cannot be the educator and I cannot
build a bridge with you right now because I'm just
doing what I can to get out of bed. You know.
So I think it's important for for white people who
are coming to a moment of going okay. I realized
there are some things I didn't grow up understanding. There
(26:25):
are some things I'm still needing to learn. I think
that can be an important place to go. I think
as much as you can, unless you have been given
an invitation by a black person in your life, try
to begin that work on your own. Even when you
enter a conversation with a black person wanting to ask
them their thoughts about what you can do, enter the
(26:46):
conversation having done some work so that you don't put
undue burden on them while they are trying to literally
survive in America. You know. So that's sort of how
I think about that question, and what what are your thoughts, Tara?
I love that right when all of this was going
(27:06):
on in the beginning, I kind of wrote this little
piece on LinkedIn and I said, you know, you'll have
to forgive us. We've spent years, uh compartmentalizing all of
the part you know, the aspects of our lives and
kind of tying it up with a bow, putting it
in a box, putting the lid on, sign it up,
putting it up on a shelf, so that we can
go into the workplace and be successful. And when this happened,
(27:31):
it kind of it's the equivalent of, you know, someone
unceremoniously knocking that box off the shelf. The bow comes undone,
and all of the contents went flying into the air,
um and got in our eyes right and and we
were honestly trying to see our way through it as
they were trying to figure out what it meant to them. Um.
(27:52):
And so all of that was real, you know, the
grief was real, The weight of it was real. I think,
for me, what's different, um, you know, But I like
to be very practical and pointed about this. What's different
is this is the work I've chosen to do. My
my professional life, right is rooted in building these kinds
(28:13):
of bridges and helping white people understand black people, in helping,
you know, sometimes black people quite frankly understand white people,
you know, and in identifying in whatever meaningful ways I
can the common ground from which we can move forward together.
But I'll tell you the the the infractions against people
(28:34):
like me who are in this work is that some
people would reach out and basically say, hey, can you
join us for this conversation? Can you come to our company,
come and webinar um and and spend an hour with
us and just talk about this. And someone actually sent
me a note and said, can you come do this
for us for an hour? We don't really have any budget,
(28:57):
but we're happy to donate to a cause that me
something to you. No, no right that those were the
insults for me that look, this is my work. This
is how I make a living, you know, this is
how I add value to the world. And I have
a lot of experience and I'm damn good at it
if I do say so myself. And so the biggest insult,
(29:19):
right anyone could I think put on one of us
right now is to ask us to bring our pain
and our grief and our reality along with our insight
about how other people can get better to them for free.
And that was happening a lot. It feels it's very
um gosh, it's almost manipulative because it's um I can't
(29:45):
think of another word for it, but it's it's in
the midst of grief, saying, well, because this is a
whole moment of emotion, then it's not business. Yeah, it's violating,
honestly is what it is. It's it's violating. Oh my goodness,
very I mean, Atar, I remember the op ed that
you wrote and we distributed that broadly in our organization
(30:08):
because your op ed was dear white people do something,
and I thought it was fabulous. So for anybody listening,
look it up, tar J Frank, dear white people do something.
I think the other thing that UM I was thinking
about UM as I was listening to the two of
you talk, I mean this. You know, I don't mean
to be naive to say, oh, it just happened in
(30:29):
the spring, And it didn't just happen to the spring.
We're in a wave after wave after wave, and this
is the most recent wave. But I think there's some
reflection that white people need to do. And you know,
if I'm honest with myself, I've been both of the people.
I've been the person with the relationship with the call
(30:49):
that says what do you need for me? Right there?
I am by your side because it was coming from
a place of love, of mutual respect, of relationship and
I also was the person that called and said, what
what without the relationship? I mean, I mean, it's really
you have reframed something for me in this conversation that
I didn't really take in. UM, and I think we've
(31:13):
all done that. UM. I think I think we all
have to find ourselves on this continuum. You know, the
same conversation we were having the other day. This whole
notion of people who UM and I don't know which
probably put probably put them in the middle bucket. People
who say, I want to be a good person, so
I don't want to make the situation worse. But you know,
(31:34):
this notion of I want to be a good person
and I don't want to make it worse, but I'm
still gonna sit by the sidelines. And you know, Tara,
you have said that's not enough, that's not enough, be
a better person. That was Dolly Chugs um c h
u g her book The People We Mean to Be
UM and the premise of that, which I absolutely loved,
just just you know, we we spend so much time
(31:57):
trying to be good people that we neglect to be
better people by engaging in the learning process and being
vulnerable as we do so I've heard you say this before,
and I love this point and that that opportunity for
each of us to be a better person, not just
a good person, but to be a better person by
investing our time to to learn and being open to
(32:18):
that learning. Yeah, that's great. And one of the things
we talked about when we chatted about this last time
is just you know, we're not a monolith, right, I
mean you use that word black people, black women are
not a monolith. And because one person doesn't want to
help somebody through it today, um, doesn't mean that that
same person won't be willing to tomorrow, or that a
(32:40):
different person might not be willing to today. Right. It's
just we're all kind of in different phases of this journey. Um,
We're all being shaped by this reality continually in different ways,
and and we kind of sometimes have to pop our
heads up and then pop them back down right and
and regenerate. It's a process. Yeah, I agree, and I
(33:04):
loved I love hearing that first line of your op ed, Tara,
Dear white people, it's fabulous, It is fabulous do something
because I do think a part of it is when
we when we find ourselves being the person of privilege
or the people of privilege in a conversation. I think
(33:27):
we want to look to the marginalized people to be
like tell me, tell me, you know. And first of all,
whether we're talking about race or not, people of color
are fantastic leaders. You should be learning from them, period.
Whether we are talking about race or not, you should
be thinking about that when you think about the books
you read about leadership, when you think about the books
(33:48):
you read about business, you should be when you think
about who your doctor is and who your dentist is.
I mean, there are so many different things to consider there,
you know, like this overall, people of color are brilliant,
you know, so you should should be learning from them period.
But on top of that, I think it's a good
time for the people of privilege to talk to the
people of privilege also. And I think it's a good
(34:09):
time for white people to also talk to other white people.
You know. Um, I can't remember the name of it now,
but there's like a Twitter account where like if you
have like racist trolls, you know, come into your into
your tweets, you could like act this account of white
people and they'll come in and go, uhh, no, we're
not going to have that, you know, and we need
that too, you know, Like if you are a person
(34:30):
who has privileged, then you should be talking to the
other people that you're in the room with them. You know,
there are rooms of white people. Man, I want to
go to May I'd ever go to, you know, but
there should be other white people in that room telling
those people stop being racist. Like that should also happen.
That would make a lot of black people, and people
(34:51):
call it way less tired. Let me tell you, I
have to tell you something so practical, really quickly, because
I love this and you are so right. So sometimes
on LinkedIn, I'll post something pretty provocative, and inevitably, if
it starts to get enough views, somebody who's like a
third connection who doesn't know me from Adam will come
(35:13):
into the comments and say something absolutely foul. Well, I've
developed enough of a network now that I don't say
anything anymore. I sit back, I put my hands up,
and I wait for one of my white friends to
defend me. And they do almost every single time, and
(35:33):
it is the most inspiring little moment for me to
realize I don't have to get in this knock down
drag out with you. Full. Somebody is willing to do
it on my behalf and we need that. We do
need that. Well, Amina and Tara, and it's been just
an extraordinary conversation with the two of you. And I
have a special request, um I Meana, would you share
(35:55):
some of your poetry with us before we close? Yeah,
I'd love to do that. Uh. This poem for the
Women is one of my favorite poems to do right now.
And I wrote this poem because I wanted women of
color to be celebrated, and I wanted to try to
incorporate as much of our our different culture and background.
(36:17):
I mean, you know, I would have needed a poem
that was a thousand minutes I wanted to cover all
of that, but I wanted to try and tell this
story and I think this will be fitting for our conversation.
So this is just a portion of the poem for
the Women. We gather our words together like so many
sticks until they ignite. We build fire, and around that
(36:38):
fire we sing. We sing because the song reminds us
that we are always home in this body, in this skin,
and around that fire we dance. We dance to the
tune of liberation. We dance for the women who are
no longer here, but the women who cannot speak. We
will dance and fight for justice until every woman is free.
(37:00):
Here the drums in the rhythm. We walk as we
speak in albur mother tongue, as we say prayer as
an alba mother's tongues. We find our language and banana
leaves and avocado, when rice and yams and seaweed. We
tell our stories while braiding the hair of our daughters,
or building a business, or leading the way in protest,
or performing surgery or frying chicken, because nobody needs to
(37:22):
tell our stories for us, because our stories belong to us,
because we belong to each other. We raise our hands,
we raise our voices. We raise the next generation. We create,
we invent. We look ahead and see no path, so
we use our feet to build one for the ones
who will come after us. We leave a legacy in
the sound of our laughter. Every day we build a world.
(37:45):
Thank God for women. Silent again, Amen, Antara, Thank you
so much, Thank you all, thank you, thank you. There
is so much to learn from that conversation, and so
(38:08):
much to act upon. This series has been about reframing
the way we see the world and today's conversation with
Amina Brown and tar J Frank certainly helps us do that.
Here are some of the valuable lessons I took away. First,
diversity doesn't just happen for companies. It requires a smart
strategy and intentionality. Just think about it. As Tara said,
(38:30):
no business leader would ever try to hit her profit
goals by saying, quote, We're just going to care our
weight of the goal. Diversity requires intentionality and accountability. Second,
this is a moment of real opportunity for those who
want to help make progress towards true equality. This is
the time to leave the sidelines to drive real change.
And this discussion reminds us that being a good person
(38:53):
is not enough. We need not just to be good people,
but we need to be better people. This requires learning
and staying open in vulnerable. It won't always be easy,
but it's some of the most important work we can do.
To learn more about tar J Frank's work, go to
Tara J. Frank dot com and check out our podcast
hashtag more Than and to hear Amina Brown's podcast, download
(39:16):
Her with Amina Brown on the I Heart Radio app
or wherever you get your podcasts. Join us next week
for the conclusion of this special series when Caroline and
Dianna talk to advertising legend Madonna Badger about using your
own unique superpower to help us all get to equal.
You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose,
(39:38):
brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
I Heart Radio with support from founding partner PNG. Listen
to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts, and please support this podcast by telling your friends, subscribing,
and rating us. For more information on Seneca Women, follow
(40:00):
us on social media, visit our website Seneca Women dot com,
and check out the Seneca Women app free in the
app store m
Hi, This is Malan vervare and this is Kim Azarelli.
We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose, and you're listening to
Seneca's conversations on power and Purpose. Welcome to this special edition.
(00:24):
This new six part series called Getting to Equal will
change the way you think about women and leadership, and
it comes at a time when women's leadership has never
been more crucial. We have two amazing leaders who are
guest hosting these six episodes, Carol and Tastad, Group President
North America and Diana Bass, Vice President Global Diversity, Equality
(00:45):
and Inclusion, both from PNG, one of the largest consumer
goods companies in the world. Together, Caroline and Diana have
created an impressive gender equality strategy for PNG, and it's
a strategy that's really breaking new ground on these issues
in the private sector. And they'll be joined by incredible
guests from all walks of life. In today's episode of
Getting to Equal, Caroline and Diana talk about racial equality
(01:08):
and the path to getting there in the workplace and
in the world, and they have two amazing guests, spoken
word poet, author and podcaster Amina Brown and author, consultant
and speaker Tara J. Frank Caroline, Indiana. I'm so glad
you could join us again today and I'm really looking
forward to this conversation. Thank you, Kim, and hello everyone,
(01:29):
Welcome to this episode of Getting to Equal. We have
such a special conversation today with two incredible women. Amina
Brown is a spoken word poet, author, and performing artist
whose work inter weaves keep It Real, storytelling, rhyme, and humor.
(01:50):
Through her weekly podcast, Her with Amina Brown, Amina centers
and elevates the voices, stories and experiences of Black, Indigenous,
Asian and Latin X women. Tara J. Frank is a
sought after consultant, speaker and author. Through her company t
(02:11):
j F Career Modeling, she helps leaders and organizations define
a vision and develop strategies to advance their culture and
leadership goals. Tara is also the visionary behind hashtag more
Than a Movement and not for profit to facilitate deeper
understanding between disconnected people. Amina and Tara, I'm so happy
(02:36):
to have you here, Welcome to our podcast. Thanks for
having me, happy to be here. Thank you so much
for joining us today. You know, Tara PNGNG, we've been
working with you on a couple of fronts, including the
Open Doors program, which is all about accelerating progress for
multicultural women within the workplace. And through that work, you
shared with us a really interesting analogy that gives us
(02:58):
a framework for how to think about this. Can you
share that analogy with us? Absolutely? And you know, one
of the things we often talk about when we just
have the discussion around women and work is how do
we need to better equip them to succeed? But the
way I think about this is there's there's the vine right,
which might be the individual woman or employee, But there's
(03:20):
also the vineyard, which to me is the micro culture, right,
the company culture, the systems, etcetera. Um. And thirdly, there's
the climate, the macro climate, which is really society, you know,
and what's going on outside of our workplaces, in our
lives are daily lives. Chara, Let's go a little deeper
(03:41):
on that, because I think the analogy is a great one,
But that whole notion of the individual, the workplace and
society and the community around let's just take that a
little deeper. Yeah, for sure. Now is honestly such an
interesting time to be having a conversation like this because
you know, I've been in women's leadership work for quite
a few years now, um, and the one thing I've
(04:02):
been saying for a while is, you know, this is
not this is not about just developing women. It's not
about um, teaching them how to you know, develop executive presence.
You know, it's not just about helping them to devise
their personal development plan. That's that's one thing, um and
(04:26):
certainly necessary, but it can't do much to break through
a system or a culture that is so fibrous that
it's essentially preventing them from breaking through to higher levels
of leadership. And so that you know, the vineyard is
really to me, is the soil fertile right? Is the
soil fertile for those women to pride and to grow
(04:47):
and to continue to succeed or is it essentially kind
of choking out that potential right unconsciously sometimes? And then
to your point, you think about the climate around that,
in the conditions that we're all seeing around us today
in terms of social justice, and that puts even more
pressure on the individual in terms of everything that they're
coping with, we're dealing with, and uh, it makes it
(05:09):
even more difficult. Yeah, it's an added burden, you know.
For sure. I always say that we walk into work.
Well these days, of course, we don't walk into work.
We call into work. But you know, we show up
at work as human beings first, you know, and employees
and leaders second. UM. And so the the human piece
(05:30):
of this is that none of us can detach ourselves
from what's going on in our everyday lives, from what's
happening with our families, from what's happening you know, on
the television and politics in the world in general, and
so we all kind of carry that weight with us
wherever we go. You know, they always say wherever you go,
(05:51):
there you are. UM. And these days, especially as we
kind of talk about race in America for multicultural women,
for black women specifically, UM, all of that comes with
us everywhere we go. So that climate is really I
think changing what what the responsibility of companies and company cultures,
UM is kind of involving to be right now, that's
(06:15):
such great work, Tara. You know, it's been really important
to us at PNG as you've come in and spread
your magic around the walls of PNG. It's been amazing.
I wanna, UM, I want to introduce Amina now, and Amina,
you are spoken word poet, an author, a podcaster, and
(06:38):
we had the chance to host you in Cincinnati at
an International Women's Day event this year, and I have
to tell you, you you closed out this event that we
had with one of your spoken word poems and we
got to the end of what you said, and the
there were three fifty of us in the audience, and
(06:59):
there was this active Do I jump up in uproarious
applause or do I sit in silent awe at what
just came out of you? And I think we collectively
all had the pause and then the eruption. It was
one of the most beautiful things I have ever witnessed.
So I am so happy to have you here. That's
(07:20):
my little love letter to you today. I received that.
So tell us a little bit about your work about
you know, the work that you do is really centered
on elevating the voices of women of color. Yeah, someone
asked me. I get this question all the time, people say,
you know, how do you find hope right now? And
I always say, I find hope in the work of
(07:42):
women of color, because if we're looking in our workspaces
and our communal spaces, anywhere we look where there's good
being done, so much of that work is being led
by women of color. So I wanted to sort of
have a platform of my own where I could say,
here's a place where I can elevate the stories of
women who get to tell their own stories in their
(08:05):
own voices, who are the experts, who are the people
who know and instead of them being sort of pushed
back to the side or being on the outskirts of
a situation and sort of yelling in the back. You know.
I mean, I've been in a lot of rooms where
I looked around and when where are the women of color?
And it's not the women of color are hard to find.
It's not that the women of color aren't leading, it's
(08:26):
that they are not getting the microphone as much as
they should. So for me, that's very central in my
writing as well as obviously very central to my podcast.
I was like, you know, i'd have to wait for
anybody to give me a microphone. I'm gonna grab a
mic and give it to the women that I want
to have the microphone. And that is podcasting as book
word poetry in essence. I you know, it's um in Uh.
(08:49):
First of all, after I saw you back in March
and then just in preparation of having this conversation, I
U have been, you know, a student of her with
Amina Brown. It's just really amazing work and beautiful stories
that you're allowing to come forward and allowing, you know,
people to sit in and listen and learn. Um in
(09:12):
these really crazy times that were in Yeah, I think
it's been really important to me too to make sure
that women of color and marginalized women are not tokenized
in the process. UM. So sure, I could have just
brought a black woman on and say, here, tell me
what it's like to be a black woman, but she's
also an entrepreneur, or she's also a business owner, or
(09:35):
she's also in the C suite. You know, there's so
many experiences that women of color have and I want
to hear from them as as the experts, as the
people with knowledge, and that gives us an opportunity to
sit in front of them and learn. And I think
that is a beautiful thing. I think that is also justice.
You know, when we were um talking about doing this
(09:57):
podcast together, the four of us, um uh, kind of
working through what where did we want the center of
this podcast to be? And you both talked about the
amazing experience of being a black woman leader in this
moment in time. UM. I mean I think the words
that you used were UM, rooted in community, uh, challenging, hopeful. UM.
(10:24):
I'd love to talk a little bit more about that,
because I think there's something for all of us to
learn in what the two of you are experiencing right now.
I think one of the things I think about is,
you know, Tara and I were first meeting. Even though
I knew of her work, I didn't know her until
that day we were meeting there in Cincinnati, and it
was beautiful to me just to see her as a
(10:46):
black woman thriving and to learn from her and to
watch her lead. And then after that when she said
she and I both graduated from Spellman College, I just
could have jumped out of all of my skin. I
was so happy about that, you know. And I think
when I think about my time at Spellman and even
before going to Spellman, thinking about the black women who
were leading in my community, the black women who lead
(11:08):
in my family, you know, it is it is those
women that came before me. It is the heritage and
the legacy of the women who come before me that
give me the confidence, the hope, the courage to be
myself in the spaces that I am in now. So
that was this beautiful, serendipitous moment for me to see
(11:29):
my sister as a fellow black woman, to see my
sister as a spellman sister. And I think that's a
part of what thriving right now is to me. It's
it's women being in community together. It's deciding we do
this together. We build each other up, we encourage each other,
you know, Yeah, I love that. One of my one
of the things I've been thinking about lately is the
(11:50):
fact that we've been talking for a long time, right,
We've been sharing stories and sharing ideas and are in
content right trying to inform and inspire, um certainly educate
for years. But people are listening in new ways right now,
you know, which for me makes it all the more
(12:13):
important that what we're saying count um. And so in
my opinion, you know, I've been the most bold, honestly
with my language, right, with my calls to action, um,
with my accountability conversation. I've been more bold over these
last few months than I think I've ever been. And
(12:33):
I never considered myself shy, right or I never thought
of myself as kind of holding back, but it's one
of those things where where the light when the light
is on you for that period of time, because I mean,
let's be honest, we don't know how long this particular
light is going to last. Right where I think all
of us are kind of sitting back like hopefully this
is a movement and not a moment, but hard to note. Um,
(12:57):
So while we're in this space together, there are some
things that need to be said right and a lot
of people who need to hear them. So that's that's
kind of part of the stepping into this moment, I think,
as well, and doing so as as courageously as humanly possible.
So Tara, I love this notion of listening in new
ways and listening right now and taking advantage of the
(13:18):
moment that is now. And from a P and G side,
we want equality for all women and we see this
as the responsibility of all leaders to deliver that. Uh.
And when we talk about all women we want to
make we we think about that from a multicultural standpoint
in LGBTQ, people with disabilities in any way and in
(13:38):
any spirit, in how somebody would identify themselves and define themselves.
And this notion of having a really courageous conversation right
now and really addressing um, I'll go back to the
vineyard analogy, but addressing the culture, addressing conditions in the
environment that exists in order to make the those conditions
(14:01):
UM conducive to change into advancement and development of multicultural
women within the workplace. How do we drive that accountability?
You know, what are the conversations in your mind that
we need to be having more overtly today now, taking
advantage of this moment and driving that, driving that sense
(14:22):
of accountability to make real and meaningful progress. Such a
good question, Caroline, And honestly, I'm trying to tease apart,
you know, the bugs that are popping into my head
right now and in response to that frame, because there
are so many important ideas there. I think one critical
idea is this whole um concept of kind of the
fence that are right. Any time we're in the midst
(14:45):
of some kind of major change, there are always people
who are on the front end of that change, you know,
let's go, I'm ready. There are always people on the
other end of that change, digging their heels in right
kind of more of a preservation mental city, really trying
to protect themselves, their power, their position. And then there
are usually a bunch of people in the middle, quite honestly,
(15:07):
who I think historically have have sat there and observed
what's going on in the world right maybe relative to
the lack of equal opportunity, and potentially, you know, felt
empathetic toward folks who were who were being marginalized, but
not necessarily that they were responsible for being part of
that transformation. And so for me, one of the encouraging
(15:30):
things is there are a lot more people who have
been sitting on the fence, and again I'm not suggesting
it's malicious, but sitting on the fence as a bystander,
who are realizing now that standing by is not a
strategy for change um and that they have to be
as responsible for this evolution as women are right, as
(15:50):
as black women have been, as women of color have been.
The other piece of this is we have got to
change our leadership definition right, how we define leadership and
how we hold people accountable. Because the work ahead of us,
in my mind, is not simply diversity work. It's not
simply inclusion work or equity work. It's leadership work and
(16:14):
and the fact that many companies have had for years,
and I know you know this to be true. It's
it's true in most companies I work with back in
the day, right, they have two or three people who
make up their diversity team who were supposed to write
create somehow magically equal opportunity for the thousands on thousands
(16:34):
of people in the organization. That's not their job alone
to do. I mean, that's ridiculous when you think about it. Right,
So this is leadership responsibility. Then we wonder why we
don't make progress exactly because it is the role of
all leaders. It has to be the work of all leaders. Yes,
And it's really you know, we all talk about building
(16:57):
the very best team using all of the available talent,
not part of the talent available. And it's so important
because we know time and time and time again, when
we do that, everything gets better. Everything gets better, the
culture gets better, the workplace gets better, the relationships build,
the business gets better. Everything gets better. Absolutely, And I
(17:19):
mean give us your perspective on that. I mean, I
I just agree with Tara On on the idea that
this is going to require some work, especially for the
people who are in the most empowered and the most
privileged of positions. It's going to require some strategy. I
(17:40):
think it's really important. That's how I used that word.
I think in sentiment, you know, especially when you know
I joke with a lot of my friends when you
know we were starting to see this you know, global uprising,
this national uprising of justice happening, uh in America. You know,
it's like, oh man, some people just woke up today
and we're like, America, wait, things, things that are racist
(18:02):
are happening here, Like we are just waking Oh my gosh,
I can't believe this place is racist. So then some
people felt like, oh, I get in my feelings. I
don't want to be racist. I don't want to be
a part of things that are racist. And those are
good feelings to start with, but it's not the place
to end there with how our feelings are and that
(18:25):
we want to cry. There are things going on that
do make us cry, But if we don't have strategy
for how we are actually going to affect change, then
all we've done is cry, and we've just wiped our
eyes and we've moved on, and the people whose voices
should be heard are still not being heard. The people
who have been railing against things and wanting things to
(18:47):
change long before it was in vogue to say so,
have been yelling in the back. We haven't been listening
to them. So it is a question of if we
are in leadership, what is our strategy? And I would
say uh to white leaders as well, to think about
this in a business sense, what is the business strategy?
If you're truly saying well, we better put up our
(19:08):
anti racist statement on social media, well what's the strategy
behind that? And then will you do that personally? Also,
because if you go into work and you say, well,
I want to have a strategy that I want this
to be a more equitable place, but you don't find
yourself being equitable in the other areas of your life,
then that will also come to bear. You know. We
(19:30):
need to do both of them, Yeah, for sure. And
I do know too, you know, because I I work
with mostly white people. Honestly, you know, day in and
day out, who are I think trying to get educated
quite frankly right about what's going on in America, the
history of race in America, the impact of racism in
(19:52):
America through the centuries, And I can appreciate that. But
one of the one of the things I say to
them is, you know, this is to your point. I mean,
and this is about what's now what do we do now? Right?
This is about your role in our shared evolution, and
you have to have a role and it has to
(20:13):
be active. So one of the things that I took
people all the time is your good intent is not enough.
Like I can't tell you how many lovely, warm, sweet
folks I've talked to over the years who say, well,
we don't really feel like we need to set targets
to achieve representation or that you know, that's not really
on brand for us. Um, we believe we know what
(20:34):
we need to do. We need to make progress and
change and we're going to do that. Everyone's heart is
in the right place, And I said, this has nothing
to do with your heart, like it's you know, it's
great to have a good heart, But a business imperative
has teeth. We we all know this, right where businesswomen,
you've never set a customer goal for instance, right, or
(20:57):
an r OI goal and just said, we all want
to increase that r o I as high as we
possibly can, and because we care about doing it, we're
just going to care our way to that goal in
a year from now, we're gonna feel great about our outcomes.
That's not how that works. We all know it right now.
You're you're so right, Tara, You're so right. I mean,
(21:20):
I love what you just said. We can't care our
way to a new reality. We have to be intentional.
We say that all the time. Intentionality is so important.
We have to provide opportunities, experiences, development for our total
talent pool. And then we have to hold ourselves accountable
to the goals that we set, just as we would
(21:42):
with any business strategy. And we know that when we
do that, good things happen. And that's leadership it is.
You know, we have very talented leaders in our company, Black, Hispanic, Asian, American,
many others with huge responsibilities running big businesses, having in
no mist impact. And importantly, we've declared our aspiration to
(22:04):
have multicultural representation at every level of our company in
the US. I was there. I was there. It was
a beautiful day to hear you say it out loud
in front of everybody. You were there, and it was
a great day. And we know it's important. We have
the most diverse leadership in our company history and our
business has never been stronger. As we've increased the diversity
(22:24):
of our leadership, our culture stronger, we're more inclusive. Do
we have more to do, for sure, but we're making
great progress. You have proof points. I mean you as
an organization have proof points. This is not a guessing
game for you, right This is not a wing and
a prayer, absolutely not proven strategy. We'll be back after
(22:48):
this break. So I want to I want to shift
gears just ever so slightly here and I wanted to
this again is coming back to some of the conversations
that we were having in preparation for this conversation. And
(23:10):
you know, after the deaths of George Floyd and Brianna
Taylor and so many other black men and women really
this past spring, Tar you said earlier, suddenly white people
were paying attention that there's a there's a spotlight right now.
And I would agree with you, and there's probably a
lot of reasons why the spotlight is so bright right now,
(23:32):
but you all you two also talked about the impact
of of the white population reaching out to you personally,
to the black community with questions like what what can
I do? What should I do UM? And you had
really I think meaningful responses to that, I'd love for
(23:53):
you to share. UM. It's a it's a lot of
lawyers when I think about this question, because A is
in the moment of the murders of George Floyd and
Brianna Taylor. It was a lot of multitasking. It's a
lot of anger and grief in my own body and
my own fears and thoughts about what it means for
(24:16):
me to be asleep in my home or what it
means for me to be out doing what is a
normal thing, and that I could be murdered in the
same way that so many black people have been murdered.
So it's carrying that. It's that layer. It's the other
black people who are in community with me, who are
also grieving and angry and some numb and not even
(24:39):
knowing how to process all of it. It's getting those calls, right.
So then on top of that, to be getting texts
or calls from white people asking what can I do
UM that may seem like a very simple question to
them can be additional burden for me. So what I've
had to learn, first of all, is that there are
(25:00):
some white people in my life that I have that
I've earned the trust with me. But I'll have to say,
even after we talked about this, I thought about it,
and I said, all of the white people in my
life who I trust, who earned the trust with me,
their texts and calls said, can I help you? How
can I support you? Right now? Tell me what you need?
(25:20):
Is it? Is it food I can send to your house.
I wish the world weren't like this. Can I can
I send you something in your cash app? I literally
had those kind of texts. So actually, the white people
in my life who have earned trust with me didn't
ask me to do anything for them. Now, there were
white people in my life who may have been work
colleagues or we had more tangential type relationship, and I
(25:43):
did get some of those messages, and for me, I
had to say, I cannot answer that question for you
right now because I am too full of grief. Yeah,
and so I here, I might have a couple of
things here, maybe start with this organization here, may be
look through these things, but I just have to sit
(26:04):
in this grief right now. So I cannot be the
teacher and I cannot be the educator and I cannot
build a bridge with you right now because I'm just
doing what I can to get out of bed. You know.
So I think it's important for for white people who
are coming to a moment of going okay. I realized
there are some things I didn't grow up understanding. There
(26:25):
are some things I'm still needing to learn. I think
that can be an important place to go. I think
as much as you can, unless you have been given
an invitation by a black person in your life, try
to begin that work on your own. Even when you
enter a conversation with a black person wanting to ask
them their thoughts about what you can do, enter the
(26:46):
conversation having done some work so that you don't put
undue burden on them while they are trying to literally
survive in America. You know. So that's sort of how
I think about that question, and what what are your thoughts, Tara?
I love that right when all of this was going
(27:06):
on in the beginning, I kind of wrote this little
piece on LinkedIn and I said, you know, you'll have
to forgive us. We've spent years, uh compartmentalizing all of
the part you know, the aspects of our lives and
kind of tying it up with a bow, putting it
in a box, putting the lid on, sign it up,
putting it up on a shelf, so that we can
go into the workplace and be successful. And when this happened,
(27:31):
it kind of it's the equivalent of, you know, someone
unceremoniously knocking that box off the shelf. The bow comes undone,
and all of the contents went flying into the air,
um and got in our eyes right and and we
were honestly trying to see our way through it as
they were trying to figure out what it meant to them. Um.
(27:52):
And so all of that was real, you know, the
grief was real, The weight of it was real. I think,
for me, what's different, um, you know, But I like
to be very practical and pointed about this. What's different
is this is the work I've chosen to do. My
my professional life, right is rooted in building these kinds
(28:13):
of bridges and helping white people understand black people, in helping,
you know, sometimes black people quite frankly understand white people,
you know, and in identifying in whatever meaningful ways I
can the common ground from which we can move forward together.
But I'll tell you the the the infractions against people
(28:34):
like me who are in this work is that some
people would reach out and basically say, hey, can you
join us for this conversation? Can you come to our company,
come and webinar um and and spend an hour with
us and just talk about this. And someone actually sent
me a note and said, can you come do this
for us for an hour? We don't really have any budget,
(28:57):
but we're happy to donate to a cause that me
something to you. No, no right that those were the
insults for me that look, this is my work. This
is how I make a living, you know, this is
how I add value to the world. And I have
a lot of experience and I'm damn good at it
if I do say so myself. And so the biggest insult,
(29:19):
right anyone could I think put on one of us
right now is to ask us to bring our pain
and our grief and our reality along with our insight
about how other people can get better to them for free.
And that was happening a lot. It feels it's very
um gosh, it's almost manipulative because it's um I can't
(29:45):
think of another word for it, but it's it's in
the midst of grief, saying, well, because this is a
whole moment of emotion, then it's not business. Yeah, it's violating,
honestly is what it is. It's it's violating. Oh my goodness,
very I mean, Atar, I remember the op ed that
you wrote and we distributed that broadly in our organization
(30:08):
because your op ed was dear white people do something,
and I thought it was fabulous. So for anybody listening,
look it up, tar J Frank, dear white people do something.
I think the other thing that UM I was thinking
about UM as I was listening to the two of
you talk, I mean this. You know, I don't mean
to be naive to say, oh, it just happened in
(30:29):
the spring, And it didn't just happen to the spring.
We're in a wave after wave after wave, and this
is the most recent wave. But I think there's some
reflection that white people need to do. And you know,
if I'm honest with myself, I've been both of the people.
I've been the person with the relationship with the call
(30:49):
that says what do you need for me? Right there?
I am by your side because it was coming from
a place of love, of mutual respect, of relationship and
I also was the person that called and said, what
what without the relationship? I mean, I mean, it's really
you have reframed something for me in this conversation that
I didn't really take in. UM, and I think we've
(31:13):
all done that. UM. I think I think we all
have to find ourselves on this continuum. You know, the
same conversation we were having the other day. This whole
notion of people who UM and I don't know which
probably put probably put them in the middle bucket. People
who say, I want to be a good person, so
I don't want to make the situation worse. But you know,
(31:34):
this notion of I want to be a good person
and I don't want to make it worse, but I'm
still gonna sit by the sidelines. And you know, Tara,
you have said that's not enough, that's not enough, be
a better person. That was Dolly Chugs um c h
u g her book The People We Mean to Be
UM and the premise of that, which I absolutely loved,
just just you know, we we spend so much time
(31:57):
trying to be good people that we neglect to be
better people by engaging in the learning process and being
vulnerable as we do so I've heard you say this before,
and I love this point and that that opportunity for
each of us to be a better person, not just
a good person, but to be a better person by
investing our time to to learn and being open to
(32:18):
that learning. Yeah, that's great. And one of the things
we talked about when we chatted about this last time
is just you know, we're not a monolith, right, I
mean you use that word black people, black women are
not a monolith. And because one person doesn't want to
help somebody through it today, um, doesn't mean that that
same person won't be willing to tomorrow, or that a
(32:40):
different person might not be willing to today. Right. It's
just we're all kind of in different phases of this journey. Um,
We're all being shaped by this reality continually in different ways,
and and we kind of sometimes have to pop our
heads up and then pop them back down right and
and regenerate. It's a process. Yeah, I agree, and I
(33:04):
loved I love hearing that first line of your op ed, Tara,
Dear white people, it's fabulous, It is fabulous do something
because I do think a part of it is when
we when we find ourselves being the person of privilege
or the people of privilege in a conversation. I think
(33:27):
we want to look to the marginalized people to be
like tell me, tell me, you know. And first of all,
whether we're talking about race or not, people of color
are fantastic leaders. You should be learning from them, period.
Whether we are talking about race or not, you should
be thinking about that when you think about the books
you read about leadership, when you think about the books
(33:48):
you read about business, you should be when you think
about who your doctor is and who your dentist is.
I mean, there are so many different things to consider there,
you know, like this overall, people of color are brilliant,
you know, so you should should be learning from them period.
But on top of that, I think it's a good
time for the people of privilege to talk to the
people of privilege also. And I think it's a good
(34:09):
time for white people to also talk to other white people.
You know. Um, I can't remember the name of it now,
but there's like a Twitter account where like if you
have like racist trolls, you know, come into your into
your tweets, you could like act this account of white
people and they'll come in and go, uhh, no, we're
not going to have that, you know, and we need
that too, you know, Like if you are a person
(34:30):
who has privileged, then you should be talking to the
other people that you're in the room with them. You know,
there are rooms of white people. Man, I want to
go to May I'd ever go to, you know, but
there should be other white people in that room telling
those people stop being racist. Like that should also happen.
That would make a lot of black people, and people
(34:51):
call it way less tired. Let me tell you, I
have to tell you something so practical, really quickly, because
I love this and you are so right. So sometimes
on LinkedIn, I'll post something pretty provocative, and inevitably, if
it starts to get enough views, somebody who's like a
third connection who doesn't know me from Adam will come
(35:13):
into the comments and say something absolutely foul. Well, I've
developed enough of a network now that I don't say
anything anymore. I sit back, I put my hands up,
and I wait for one of my white friends to
defend me. And they do almost every single time, and
(35:33):
it is the most inspiring little moment for me to
realize I don't have to get in this knock down
drag out with you. Full. Somebody is willing to do
it on my behalf and we need that. We do
need that. Well, Amina and Tara, and it's been just
an extraordinary conversation with the two of you. And I
have a special request, um I Meana, would you share
(35:55):
some of your poetry with us before we close? Yeah,
I'd love to do that. Uh. This poem for the
Women is one of my favorite poems to do right now.
And I wrote this poem because I wanted women of
color to be celebrated, and I wanted to try to
incorporate as much of our our different culture and background.
(36:17):
I mean, you know, I would have needed a poem
that was a thousand minutes I wanted to cover all
of that, but I wanted to try and tell this
story and I think this will be fitting for our conversation.
So this is just a portion of the poem for
the Women. We gather our words together like so many
sticks until they ignite. We build fire, and around that
(36:38):
fire we sing. We sing because the song reminds us
that we are always home in this body, in this skin,
and around that fire we dance. We dance to the
tune of liberation. We dance for the women who are
no longer here, but the women who cannot speak. We
will dance and fight for justice until every woman is free.
(37:00):
Here the drums in the rhythm. We walk as we
speak in albur mother tongue, as we say prayer as
an alba mother's tongues. We find our language and banana
leaves and avocado, when rice and yams and seaweed. We
tell our stories while braiding the hair of our daughters,
or building a business, or leading the way in protest,
or performing surgery or frying chicken, because nobody needs to
(37:22):
tell our stories for us, because our stories belong to us,
because we belong to each other. We raise our hands,
we raise our voices. We raise the next generation. We create,
we invent. We look ahead and see no path, so
we use our feet to build one for the ones
who will come after us. We leave a legacy in
the sound of our laughter. Every day we build a world.
(37:45):
Thank God for women. Silent again, Amen, Antara, Thank you
so much, Thank you all, thank you, thank you. There
is so much to learn from that conversation, and so
(38:08):
much to act upon. This series has been about reframing
the way we see the world and today's conversation with
Amina Brown and tar J Frank certainly helps us do that.
Here are some of the valuable lessons I took away. First,
diversity doesn't just happen for companies. It requires a smart
strategy and intentionality. Just think about it. As Tara said,
(38:30):
no business leader would ever try to hit her profit
goals by saying, quote, We're just going to care our
weight of the goal. Diversity requires intentionality and accountability. Second,
this is a moment of real opportunity for those who
want to help make progress towards true equality. This is
the time to leave the sidelines to drive real change.
And this discussion reminds us that being a good person
(38:53):
is not enough. We need not just to be good people,
but we need to be better people. This requires learning
and staying open in vulnerable. It won't always be easy,
but it's some of the most important work we can do.
To learn more about tar J Frank's work, go to
Tara J. Frank dot com and check out our podcast
hashtag more Than and to hear Amina Brown's podcast, download
(39:16):
Her with Amina Brown on the I Heart Radio app
or wherever you get your podcasts. Join us next week
for the conclusion of this special series when Caroline and
Dianna talk to advertising legend Madonna Badger about using your
own unique superpower to help us all get to equal.
You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose,
(39:38):
brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
I Heart Radio with support from founding partner PNG. Listen
to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts, and please support this podcast by telling your friends, subscribing,
and rating us. For more information on Seneca Women, follow
(40:00):
us on social media, visit our website Seneca Women dot com,
and check out the Seneca Women app free in the
app store m
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