September 30, 2020 • 38 mins
In episode 4 of our special, six-part series, Getting to Equal, Tina Tchen, President and CEO of Time’s Up, talks to Carolyn Tastad, Group President, North America and Deanna Bass, Vice President, Global Diversity, Equality and Inclusion—both of P&G —about sexual harassment, equal pay and creating a safe, fair, dignified workplace.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, This is Malan Vervier and this is Kim Azarelli.
We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose, and you're listening to
Seneca's conversations on power and Purpose. Welcome to this special edition.
(00:24):
This new six part series called Getting to Equal will
change the way you think about women and leadership, and
it comes at a time when women's leadership has never
been more crucial. We have two amazing leaders who are
guest hosting these six episodes, Carol and Tastad, Group President
North America and Deiana Bass, vice President Global Diversity, Equality
(00:45):
and Inclusion, both from PNG, one of the largest consumer
goods companies in the world. Together, Caroline and Diana have
created an impressive gender equality strategy for PNG, and it's
a strategy that's really breaking new ground on these issues
in the private sector. And they'll be joined by incredible
guests from all walks of life. In today's episode of
Getting to Equal, Caroline Indianna talk with Tina Chen, the
(01:08):
president and CEO of Times Up. They'll discuss the workplace obstacles,
including sexual harassment and unequal pay, that make it hard
for women to succeed, and they offer solutions and perspectives
to help address those issues. Caroline, Indiana, thanks so much
for joining us again today. I'm very much looking forward
to hearing your conversation with Tina Chen. Thank you, Kim.
For the last few years, there has been a sustained
(01:30):
and focused national conversation on the experiences of women in
the workplace, and no conversation about women in the workplace
would be complete without talking about the hard things. One
of those topics is sexual harassment and the entire ecosystem
of issues that can make the workplace uncomfortable, unproductive, disrespectful,
(01:51):
and even unsafe for women. These issues can hold women back,
keep them from advancing, and even motivate them to leave
the work force entirely. You know, Dianna, It's something that
every company has to confront and must be constantly alert to.
Companies have a mandate to construct a work environment where
(02:14):
everyone feels safe and where everyone every individual can thrive. Now,
all workplace sexual harassment has been around for as long
as women have been in the workplace. In lateen things
reached a tipping point with revelations about Harvey Weinstein, followed
by headlines about so many other once powerful leaders but
(02:34):
this is a broader issue than sexual harassment. It's related
to pay equality and the fair treatment of people in
the workplace. And what's important to remember is that when
these topics are not discussed, or when unfairness goes unspoken,
and when action is not taken, you get a culture
where entire groups of people are marginalized and undervalued. You're
(02:56):
so right, Caroline. I am very happy to welcome a
woman who has, throughout her career been at the forefront
of the fight for workplaces that work for everyone. Tina
Chen is president and CEO of Time's Up, which was
started at the moment when the sexual harassment became a
front burner issue. Formally, Tina was assistant to President Obama,
(03:19):
Executive director of the White House Council on Women and Girls,
and chief of staff of former First Lady Michelle Obama.
Tina has a long history of advocating for gender equality,
particularly for working women. Time's Up is dedicated to ensuring
workplaces that are safe, dignified, and fair for women of
(03:39):
all kinds. I'm so excited to welcome you to the
podcast with us to day, Tina. Thank you for being here. Oh,
it's a real pleasure. To be here. Thanks for having me, Tina.
Let's start with what Time's Up is and why it
was started. You know, you were there from the beginning,
as you co founded the Times Up Legal Defense Fund
back in tell us about all of that. Well, you know,
(04:01):
as you mentioned, there was this moment in October when,
thanks to the reporting of the New York Times and
the New York magazine, um, the stories about Harvey Weinstein
cracked wide open. And what happened was women all of
a sudden realized they weren't alone up until that point.
So many of these women who were survivors of sexual
(04:22):
harassment in the entertainment business thought they had suffered alone.
Because actually that's one of the part of what I
call the predators playbook, right, which was to keep people
silent and siloed from one another so that the full
dimensions of the problem were unknown. Um And spontaneously, these
women started gathering in l a in late October just
(04:42):
to come together to support one another, having realized they
weren't alone. But to their credit, they very quickly turned
their personal pain into action. They wanted to figure out
what could they do, Recognizing they were women of privilege
with platforms that would affect women in other industries and
help them, and I happened to be in Los Angeles.
A lot of my life is just being in the
right place at the right time. You just never know.
(05:03):
And one of the things that became clear that we
needed to do was to create some mechanism to get
lawyers to help defend these women because the other part
of the predators playbook was playing itself out. And that
was as women started speaking up using the hashtag me
too that Toronto Burke had launched several years earlier. Was
they were getting threatened with defamation lawsuits, because that's what
(05:24):
used to happen. If you spoke out, you were going
to get sued, you know, by the predator, and that
could have shut the whole thing down. It also became
clear to me something as a lawyer I did not know,
and that was although you can get attorney's fees in
Title seven cases for sexual harassment, you can't get it
if you're a low wage worker, right because your wages
are so low, so the recovery is so low. So
(05:44):
if you are a victim of sexual harassment as a
restaurant worker, as a farm worker, you can't get somebody
to take your case, and so we needed, you know,
that little defense fund for them. So I'm really proud
that the National Women's Loss Center took it on. But
the part of Times Up that I'm now, you know,
the as in CEO of is our advocacy you know,
and impact lab research arm of the movement to really
(06:07):
you know, expand to the work that we're doing. And
what we're doing is number one, continuing to focus on
survivor justice always right, subborting survivors when they speak up,
like the Harvey Weinstein survivors during the Weinstein trial. But
we also know we don't want to just keep dealing
with the aftermath, right, you know, we don't want to
just be in a world where we're picking up the
pieces right after sexual harassment occurs. You know, to really
(06:30):
keep sexual harassment from happening, you have to deal with
all the structural barriers that are keeping women from having safe,
fair and dignified work. You know, that are keeping us
from having fully inclusive workplaces where women and people of
color and lgbt QA and disabled workers can fully thrive.
As you said, you know in the intro, and move
up the scale. We know, if it work places are
(06:52):
more inclusive, they are safer, right, and um, you know
we need to then therefore address all those such structural barry.
So it is things like pay equity and paid leave
and fairer hiring and promotion practices and the whole panempally
of structural barriers in our workplaces. And so that's our
mission is to you know, also work force safere and
(07:15):
dignified work through changing you know, um, people, company and laws,
so you know, really you know, addressing you know, public policy,
addressing companies and private policy, and addressing you know, our
culture and what we can do broadly in our world
with people so important. That's so important, Tina, and I
really appreciate the fact that you talk about fixing the
(07:38):
structural issues. We talk about it in our language as
fixed the system, but it is about getting at much
more breadth of what happens in the workplace. And so
i'm you know, there's such a significant impact to the workplace,
particularly workplaces were harassment and um it is part of
the culture. Can you talk a little bit about that. No,
(08:00):
it's an important question. I mean, when you when sexual
harassment is happening, that's a symptom, it's a symptom of
a toxic workplace. Right, once you get to the point
you know of um, you know, actual sexual assaults happening
in the workplace, you've really got something very broken, you know,
within a workplace. And let's be clear, sexual harassment occurs
on a spectrum. You know, we talk, you know, there's
(08:22):
a lot of attention to the Harvey Weinstein or the
less Moon Vez you know, types of actual criminal sexual
assault that we're happening in those cases. But harassment isn't
just that. It's also you know, the more subtle verbal
you know, harassment that occurs, you know, based on someone's gender,
or based on someone's race or disability. You know, the
(08:43):
cutting jokes, right, the belittling that happens. You know that
then there's also sort of an escalation that looks like
it's favorable, the I like what you're wearing, and how
about some drinks, and then let's go on a business trip.
And you know, you know, if at each moment, none
of as a manager, you don't stop that, you don't
address those microaggressions and those lesser forms of harassment, you
(09:08):
wind up with a workplace that's escalated all the way
to a place that's unsafe, and that affects your entire workplace. Right,
it's not just the fact that the women have to
suffer it. They're not as productive, they're not able to
bring their full selves to the workplace. They will leave
your workplace, so you're gonna lose your talent, will have
high turnover rates. Um. You know, there's also the bullying
(09:29):
that's not even sexual at all, you know, toxic workplace culture,
and that's not even illegal. But the legal the bar
for let bad behavior is really low. When you lose,
you use the legal definitions because things like just the
equal opportunity bullying, the guy who yells at everyone and
throws telephones of people's heads, it's not illegal. And in fact,
the winning defense in sexual harassment cases is to say, oh,
(09:54):
I don't just harass women, I harass everybody. And if
you add rass everybody, you win, You win the sexual
harassment case. But I would so believable, right, I would submit.
If you're and you all round, cup, you know you're
running a company, right, as managers, that's probably not the
workplace you want, right. That is not the kind of thriving,
productive workplace that you want to have. Um, and and
(10:18):
so that's why you've got to address culture, workplace culture,
you know, broadly, because that's what we're trying to fix,
UM and all of these other ways in which you
make sure you have a diverse and inclusive culture. UM
is part of it how you bring people who are
diverse into the workplace, but then also how people treat
one another in the workplace. UM. And I'm sure you
all know this. UM is that tone of the top manners, right,
(10:42):
you know, it starts at the top of a company.
You know, and I've been saying to see ears that
I've talked with, Look, this is every bit is important
right now, how you fix your culture as your new
technology is right or the latest real estate investment you're
gonna make is a company because your forces your talent
and you know right now, you know, the other thing
(11:04):
that happens or the negative enforcement from the Harvey Weinstein moment,
was all of a sudden companies realized, oh there's risk here. Right.
It's not just something that's kind of like a nice
to do for my employees thing. If I don't pay
attention to culture, there's huge enterprise risk here. UM. And
I think that was a motivator for companies to start changing.
You know, it's interesting. One of the things that we
(11:25):
talk a lot about is that, you know, in this
work you have to really hold two realities. And one
reality is that most men don't harass women, and the
other reality is that most women do not lie about
their experience of harassment or hostile work environments. I mean,
both of those things are true. And so you know,
(11:45):
peeling back the layers of the complexity of this issue
in the workplace is really difficult. Research tells us that
you're absolutely right, that is a very small percentage you know,
you know, somewhere less than ten percent of and are
you know, you know the people who are committing of
the sexual solves. And the problem there is there were
(12:07):
pe defenders, like when you tend to do this once,
you tend to do it over and over again, which
is why it's so important as employers to catch that
right so that it doesn't happen over and over. And
that's why that this this sort of silence that grew
up around silencing survivors and not talking about it in
a company and not people you know, employment actions being
(12:28):
taken in secret, so you didn't know who was a
sexual harasser and they could move to another part of
the company, for example, because it wasn't identified. You know,
um creates the problem and perpetuates it. And you're absolutely right.
I get the question all the time about what about
false reporting? Right? And again, what we know from the
sexual soult field, And there's been study after study to
try to demonstrate, you know, false reporting, and nobody has
(12:51):
been ever able to document anything higher than a seven
rate of false reporting, right, because think about it, people,
what you have to go through as a survivor, why
would you just make that up and bring it forward? Right?
And and so the vast majority of women who raise
these claims, you know, aren't lying about it. And but
here's the system. We don't we believe at times, up,
(13:14):
it isn't believe all survivors. That's not our call, you know,
it is survivors need to be heard, and they're you know,
what they're saying needs to be taken seriously, and there
doesn't need to be due process. You know, we're not
saying don't investigate and don't come out with a conclusion
at the end. And at the conclusion at the end
is it didn't happen. Well, then okay, Joe, but we
(13:35):
need a fair process where the survivors you know, story
was taken seriously and investigated, not just simply dismissed or
swept under the rock, which is what typically happens. Have
you seen any impact during the pandemic of either increased
or decrease impact of harassment, hostile work environment experiences of women?
(13:59):
You know, remember hara sment doesn't require physical presence, right,
And I think the misnomer is harassment is only happening
when I get you in the hotel room. That's not
that's maybe the far end of the extreme. But harassment
can happen on zoom calls, right. You know what people
what what? What? People? You know are people who are
shut down when they speak people, whether they're called, you know,
belittling names, are treated like they don't have you know,
(14:20):
they aren't you know, a serious participant in the Zoom meetings.
We've heard stories of women who are getting you know,
harassed by their you know, um uh manager because they're
calling them at three o'clock in the morning, making all
sorts of demands on them, you know, over the phone
or again, belittling their work, work product and their conduct. Um. So, Yes,
(14:40):
harassment can happen remotely. It's harder for managers to spot.
It's one of the things that prompted us actually, in
this moment of crisis, to put out something called the
Times of Guide to Equity and Inclusion during crisis, which
folks can get. You know, you can text the word
leaders to three zero six four four to get open
source free be the guide downloaded. Don't forget that when
(15:02):
you're working remotely. Not everyone's home space is a safe space,
right So the domestic violence Hotline has seen increases in calls,
you know, with everyone can find in the home, it's
not always a safe space for everyone, and employers should
be thinking about that too. We'll be back after this break, Tina,
(15:35):
this is such a fascinating conversation. I want to pivot
a little bit and we want to shift a discussion
to the issue of pay equality. Can let's talk about
what you're seeing right now for women in the area
of pay equality. Well, we just did a survey actually
at times U um U in the summer, we did
a a national survey with Chestadham and Perry and hum Research,
(15:59):
you know, uh to find out what people are thinking
about pay equity during a pandemic, during an economic crisis.
I was heartened because it showed that over an overwhelming
majority of both men and women, So we're talking about overall.
In the survey of men even agreed that addressing pay
(16:19):
equity even during a crisis is a critical important UM
priority that we all need to address. UM. It's very
different because I lived through the last Great Recession in
the White House, right and working you know, on the
White House counsel on Women and Girls, And what we
found back then was people just thought they just wanted
a job. You know, in issues of pay equity and
(16:42):
paid leave, we're just personal issues for me to figure out,
not public policy issues for legislators or something for my
manager and my employer to figure out. And that has
shifted in the last decade where people now recognize that
these issues of the structural barriers for working families. Our
issue is that we all need to care about Employers
need to care about public policy makers need to care
(17:04):
about UM. And that really showed on in our in
our survey. But you know, the downside was, you know
the huge impact that pay in equalities having, especially on
black women and Latin X women. You know, a majority
of Latin X women in our survey don't have two
hundred dollars in their bank account right now. They're struggling
(17:26):
to just make ends meet. Um uh. And you know
that that goes for you know, like forty percent of
black women. Um. And meanwhile that that's twelve percent of
white men are experiencing that. And you know, we also asked,
you know, what what would it take right what do
you need to succeed in your job? And pay quality,
you know, was one. They also know that they're not
(17:47):
getting pay equity because of race discrimination and gender discrimination. UM.
You know, we've you know, got majorities of black and
brown women who are saying they had to leave jobs
because of race and gender discrimination that was occurring. Um.
And they also point the way to the things that
we need, and it's all of the system fixes that
we've been talking about. They need jobs that include paid
(18:08):
leave and paid sick leave, you know, and better promotion practices. Um.
And those are the things so you know, even in
a pandemic moment, even in an economic crisis, what we're
trying to say to companies is this is the opportunity
to build your company back better. You know, build our
economy back better. Um, make sure that we are more
(18:29):
resilient for the future, because if we are, you know,
this is a time when you've actually stripped your company down, right,
if you furload everybody, then re examine your pay policies
and start bringing people back into jobs where the pay
inequity has been fixed. You know. So there's an opportunity
in this horrible crisis, and that is I've been lining
you know what we're going through to like stripping our economy,
(18:52):
and it was a house down to the bare foundations. Right,
everything is out of the house because everything is broken.
When the opportunity now is to build our structures back better, right,
when build and incorporate in them the things that we need.
You know that think about paid sicklely. We've been talking
a lot about paisickly as an example of this. You know,
we are one of you know, just a handful of
(19:14):
countries around the world that does not have some form
of national paisickly policy. Well, what if we and then
we had to scramble right to put an emergency one
into the Cares Act. I think what it would have
been if we had had one, If we had a
national paisickly policy going into the pandemic, If businesses had
been able to already build that cost into their business plan,
(19:35):
if workers knew they had paid sickly to take so
they could stay home if they were sick without risking
their job or their paycheck or their family member was sick.
You know, think how much better we would have been
and we could be right now in managing this pandemic.
And I would suggest to all of the business leaders
who are listening, you do not have to wait for
(19:57):
Congress to act. If Congress is acting slow or you're
staying legislature, you can set the policies in your company
that are more forward leaning and forward looking. And I
would suggest if you do that right now, you are
the business that's going to come out of the pandemic quicker,
come out of the recovery quicker, and will be more
resilient and ready for the next crisis, because we know
(20:17):
another one will come eventually, and you will be able
to build your business back better and more, you know, stronger,
with more talent that is deeply invested in your business.
You're absolutely right, Tina, and I want to go back
to pay equality through that same lens it's so important
that pay equality also be seen as an issue by
(20:39):
both women and men. It has to become the minimum
standard for companies looking at gender, race, disability, and more.
And there's a related topic which sets an even higher standard,
and that is wealth equality, which is starting to be
a broader conversation around the world. Wealth equality is about
(21:00):
the amount of wealth that women and men accumulate over
their careers. It relies on having women get equal access
to higher paying fields and higher paying jobs, and it
requires all of us to look at our total talent
bull when we're making advancement decisions. Otherwise those disparities remain
at every level, and then the compounding impact of that
(21:23):
creates a significant wealth gap for women versus men. A
P and G. We've declared that we want to have
fifty fifty representation at all levels of our company and
representation of multicultural individuals in the US. We are working
hard to ensure that we have women equally represented in
(21:43):
the highest paying roles, whether that's leading a business unit,
leading a technical center, or a manufacturing plant. And I'm
really proud to share that today forty percent of our
managers are women. Over of our c suite executives or women,
and of our dependent directors on our board are women.
(22:03):
Well unfamiliar with the work of PNG, and you you
all have been doing a great job. I mean you've
been intentional about it and put the work in and
that's what it requires. That is what it requires. Intentionality
is word we use so often, and as we've also
said so many times, we know that women are highly effective,
proven leaders, and we need to ensure that we give
(22:26):
them that equal opportunity to lead. And in fact, on
that note, Tina, I'd love to hear about the campaign
you've started at Times Up, which is called we Have
Her Back. So we launched you know, we Have Her
Back in August, right as Vice President Biden was a
speculation about who would he pick as his EP nominee
was happening, and myself and several other of my you know,
(22:49):
women women leaders that I know, we feel like we've
been to this movie before. We knew what was coming,
right and we could see it even before our nominee
was picked. The kind of misogynistic and also a racial
slurs and suggestive language um that we're being used, and
you know, we kind of decided we weren't going to
sit quietly like anymore about that? UM, And so we
(23:12):
launched you know, we have her Back in August hashtag
we have her Back. Interestingly, we co wrote myself and
several other women leaders co wrote a memo to news
editors UM just the weekend before Senator Harris was picked
as a VP nominee, and we sent it out that
that Friday morning, the weekend before before there was a nominee, saying,
you know, we know he's going to pick a woman.
(23:34):
Here's the thing you should watch out for in your reporting.
Don't call her ambitious. Don't focus on her clothes or
what she looks like, or what her husband did you know,
or her personal pass and lo and behold twenty four
not twenty four hours later, The New York Times ran
a headline about risk corsages and comparing you know, like
the last general lead for our race too. You know,
(23:56):
did Walter Mondo want to bring a risk corsage to
early for hour when they first met? And even worse,
l A Times ran a story that compared you know,
the VP nominee selection process to The Bachelor and compared
you know, the White House to the Ultimate Fantasy Suite.
It's like horrific, and they proved the case of why
(24:17):
we needed we have her back. And there's been so
many examples since then. And here's the problem, though, and
here's how it relates to what's happening inside your company
and other companies, is when women leaders are talked about
like that, we then you know, there's a reason why
we haven't been able to crack that highest class ceiling
of the presidents of the United States, because that's how
we talk about women leaders in our political discourse, and
(24:40):
therefore we don't see women leaders as being able to
occupy the highest homs. But it's not just that, you know,
political discourse is so permanent. You know, it is the
reason why not only can you not see a woman
as president in the United States or vice president of
the United States, you don't see your s CEO of
your company or a director of your company. You don't
(25:00):
see her as a district manager at that level. You know,
the server and a restaurant who aspires to be the
manager of a restaurant. The restaurant owners don't see her
in that way. Because we are getting culturated to thinking
of women not as women leaders, but as contestants on
the Bachelor, and that's why we did this. And it's
(25:20):
so deep. I have to say, right, this is this
is so much the social norms, and that's why we
want we have our back. We're trying to call it out,
not to do cancel culture. It's not that is to
get people to recognize the coded terms, the language they're using,
and push back against it and don't let that be
part of your decision making process, whether it's voting or
(25:42):
trying to figure out who's gonna be the next manager
in your company. That's exactly right, Tina. You know, I
want to go back to the perception and language we
use about women. You're talking about this earlier, but it's
not just about the vice presidential race, and it's not
just about one woman. I mean, we're o numb to
the language that's used in the media and online and
(26:04):
in everyday conversations that we don't even hear it anymore.
I just had to pause on that for a moment,
you know. I I keep saying to Caroline, I'm just
so mad, and I don't know who I should be
mad at. You don't know why you're mad, because it's
just coming from all sorts of places and you can't
even identify where it's coming from. Right. I had an
activist one described that we're all living in a soup, right,
(26:25):
and when you're in the middle of the soup, you
sort of can't see it, right, and it can't taste it,
and you can you don't know where the flavors are
coming from, but they're surrounding you, right. You know, you
need to sort of pull back from the soup and
taste it and be able to understand what's going on.
And that's what we're trying to do with we have
our back is at least peel back that veil of
what's the subtle signals that are affecting our culture. You know,
(26:47):
culture is really important. It affects how we think about people.
It's affects how we treat one another. You know, it
does affect the issues around um tangible things like wealth
inequality that we started talking about, because it affects, you know,
how people advance, how they're viewed in their workplace, how
they're evaluated. You know, Tina. The other thing that I
(27:07):
want to just go back to for a moment is
your comments earlier about the importance of national sickly, the
importance of parental leave, the importance of flexibility in our
policies that applies equally and gets used and adopted equally
by men and women, because it also broadens that opportunity
for men to play a bigger role at home with family,
(27:29):
with childcare, with schooling, with homework, with dental appointments, whatever
the case might be. And and that's another big important
part of this, because the more that we can broaden
the role and the norm for men, it also has
a positive impact for women. You know, we have to
start seeing UM women UH women's leadership as as something
(27:53):
that is highly effective and something we should expect. We
have to begin to see that men washing dishes, or
diapering babies or taking kids to school in the morning
is also the norm that we should come to expect,
and these policies are an important part of that as well. Oh,
it's interesting you mentioned that when I was in the
(28:13):
White House, you know, we had a huge working Families
agenda that we did and we worked on and we
actually had the first ever White House some of them
Working Families UM. And in one of the lead up
events to that large summit we had, there were so
many events on specific issues and one of them was
on men on stay at home dad's you know, and
the support that they need. There was a Mets player
(28:34):
who actually took two days off and missed a game
or two because for the birth of his son, and
was roundly supported by the Mets, by the way in
wait j League Baseball, but roundly criticized on sports radio, right,
And we brought him in to talk about it, and
there was there's a whole group of men who just
were mazed and that they were at the White House
talking about this. But the other thing that was striking
is that we had some child psychologists, you know, a
(28:57):
guy from Yale who came in and talked about the
fact that it's demonstrated that if men are involved with
their children, you know, in the zero to three range
of their lives, that has lifelong effects you know, on
child development, on child achievement. Absolutely, and you're absolutely right.
These need to be policies that are parental leave, not
(29:19):
maternal leave, you know, and men need to take it right.
So the other thing about tone at the top is
we need leaders at the top of the business to
set the tone in the business to take the leave.
When we build safer and dignified work. We're building it
for everyone, for everyone to succeed. You know. We had
a conversation with Eve Rodsky, uh, the author of a
book called fair Play, and one of the things that
(29:39):
we talked about with her on paid paternity leave is
that not only is that really healthy for families, it's
healthy for men. Um their outlook is better. But we
also connected it back into the workplace that men who
take paid paternity leave, paid parental leave come back into
the workplace and have much greater empathy for women that
(30:00):
are in that cycle as well, like they understand now
what that all means. UM. And so I think in
the world of creating workplaces that work for everyone at
when when they come back in UM, that is also
helpful for the women that they're working with who are
going through childcare leave as well. Oh absolutely, And you know,
and it is an ongoing thing. So it's not just
dvery re leave moment. Right, We're not experiencing a moment
(30:23):
where schools are closed, So what what are we doing
during the day for kids if you've got school aged kids,
but it's also elder care, you know, if they're if
they're sick, UM and yourself self care. So caregiving really
needs to get broadened and defined. And I am terribly worried.
You know, that we are in a new caregiving crisis
with this pandemic where you know, women are now opting
(30:45):
out of the workforce because they have no choice, so
there's no access to free or affordable childcare, and we
I'm deeply concerned that we will lose all the progress
we've made on women's labor force participation, where we're now
in the labor force, that during the course of this pandemic,
we're going to lose that, you know, and want employers
to start thinking about if you've got a lot empty
(31:08):
space now because you're only bringing half your workforce back
to the office, maybe use that empty space so child
aged school age kids can come to their school work,
you know, one floor down from mom or dad, you know,
so that mom and dad can actually come into the office.
I mean, I think we need to start getting a
little disruptive and a little creative in how we deliver
caregiving in this country and how do we support the
(31:31):
wages of these essential workers who are our caregivers and
who are predominantly women. We're taking the house down to
the foundation and building it differently, building it in a
new way. Again. I'm moving to a slightly new topic here,
but another industry that can probably use a reset is tech. Right.
Tech drives everything we do, everything we touch, but it
also has this huge gender gap. You know, I have
(31:54):
a computer science degree, and I think there were more
women graduating from computer science when I graduated in the
eighties than they are today, which is a crazy stat right,
And we need women in tech. We need women helping
to design the products, the systems, and the world that
we live in. UM there's a fun fact. PNG has
the highest the nation's highest average rate of women credited
(32:17):
with inventions, as determined by the number of patents that
they've been assigned. Now, women inventors at PNG had a
filing rate I think it's about which is higher than
institutions and companies like M I, T, Microsoft, Amazon, UM,
you know, and we make we make Tied and Pampers
and Dodd you know. But one of the reasons our
(32:38):
female inventor rate is so high is that of our
employees working in research and development are women. And when
you have diversity and invention, you get these products and
applications that work for all people. So you know, these
reset moments are so important. Well, absolutely, they used to
complain it was a pipeline problem. I don't actually think
it's a pipeline problem anymore. With increasing numbers of women
(33:00):
with computer science backgrounds who are out there, they just
are leaving, you know, and they're leaving because of the culture, right,
the broa culture. And we've seen a lot of that
um that happens. And I've addressed startups and I said, look,
you're a startup, but you need to actually invest in
this right way, because what happens with these startup companies
is HR isn't invested in you know, by the by
(33:22):
your angel investor. You're just dealing with the product. And
then all of a sudden you are big and international
and you get thousands of employees and a terrible culture
that does not support women or anyone who is different,
and then it affects your your product because you know,
there's all the stories for example about face recognition, right,
and face recognition being sort of completely sort of you know,
not recognizing black people, not really fully recognizing women. But
(33:46):
tech folks like to think, oh, you know, technology is neutral, right,
It's just the algorithms, but the algorithms got written by people, right,
and with people's biases, you know, built into it. It's
the same thing with women's heart disease not being recognized,
right because everything's been built on the examples of male
heart disease. I mean, there's so many places that it's present,
(34:07):
and it's so important that we that we get women
represented so that our world can be a better place
for all of us. So, Tina, this has been such
a great conversation, and I want to go back to
one other thing that we talked earlier and just put
it into words. What's bothering me so much about the
corsage comment and then the bachelor comment is that it's
(34:30):
just such a microaggression against all women and it keeps happening. Well,
it is because, as you know, the three of us
are women who grew up in business, right and you know,
I was. I was a corporate litigator for twenty three
years before I went to the White House and loved it,
and yet there were all those micro aggressions every day
that she had to sort of deal with. The you know,
I remember I had I had jurors who would tell
(34:52):
me after a jury trial you know, we were so
surprised you spoke English, so or you know, being mistaken
for the court reporter, you know when the deposition and starts,
So we have all of those things. So yeah, So Tina,
we just have one final question for you, if you
could leave our listeners with one final thought to remember.
Tell us what you're hopeful about right now? What makes
(35:13):
you get up in the morning and do the important
work that you're doing. Well, let me acknowledge it's a
tough time, right I think it still remains a very
tough time for all of us, you know, during this
unprecedented pandemic moment. So it's it's tough. I've been experiencing
some of the toughness of of being isolated. You know
that many of us are experiencing. UM. But I will
tell you what gives me hope and keeps me up
(35:33):
is the enthusiasm and the activism that's out there. You know,
I think people are rising to the occasion, um, to
this moment. This is a transformational moment. And you know
it was thrust upon us, you know, um, by by
nature and and it's a global transformational moment, and it
as an opportunity for us to seize that moment and
(35:56):
you know, make a turn for the good, you know,
and not go back to an old stay as quote
that wasn't working for so many people. But to build
really a new future, and new economic future, a new
workplace future, um and and so that that I'm thrilled
by that opportunity that we have, and I'm thrilled by
the energy that I see in so many sectors to
(36:17):
do it. Tina, thank you so much. This has been
such a fun conversation. It's been a real joy. Gosh, Tina,
such fantastic work you're doing. Thank you. That was so powerful.
Tina Chen is a force to be reckoned with. Here
(36:37):
are a few points that I took away from today's conversation,
and they all ladder up to Tina's main message that
women deserve a safe, fair and dignified workplace. First, sexual
harassment is a symptom of a workplace that is broken,
one that keeps women out of positions of power. That's
why when dealing with the issue of sexual harassment, we
need to also fix the wider systemic issues that hold
(36:59):
women back. Second, as we've said before in this series,
now is the time to reframe our thinking about women.
We need to ask ourselves why do society often talk
about women only in terms of what they look like,
what they wear, or what their husbands do. That kind
of thinking undermines all of us. It keeps us from
envisioning women as managers, as directors, or as CEOs. Frankly,
(37:22):
it keeps us from envisioning women as the leaders they
actually are. Third, closing the wealth gap for women is imperative.
That means giving women not just equal pay, but access
to the jobs that come with higher pay. And it
means advocating for workplace policies like parentally and child care.
These kinds of interventions allow both women and men to
(37:43):
go for the higher paying jobs. And if you want
a free copy of the Time's Up Guide to Equity
and Inclusion during Crisis, text the word leaders to three
oh six dash four four and join us Next week
when Caroline and Dana talked a spoken word poet and
podcast uster Amina Brown and consultant and author Tara J.
(38:03):
Frank about the path to equality. Have a great week.
You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose,
brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
I Heart Radio with support from founding partner PNGNG. Listen
to Seneca Women conversations on power and purpose on the
(38:23):
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
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and check out the Seneca Women app free in the
app Store.
Hi, This is Malan Vervier and this is Kim Azarelli.
We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose, and you're listening to
Seneca's conversations on power and Purpose. Welcome to this special edition.
(00:24):
This new six part series called Getting to Equal will
change the way you think about women and leadership, and
it comes at a time when women's leadership has never
been more crucial. We have two amazing leaders who are
guest hosting these six episodes, Carol and Tastad, Group President
North America and Deiana Bass, vice President Global Diversity, Equality
(00:45):
and Inclusion, both from PNG, one of the largest consumer
goods companies in the world. Together, Caroline and Diana have
created an impressive gender equality strategy for PNG, and it's
a strategy that's really breaking new ground on these issues
in the private sector. And they'll be joined by incredible
guests from all walks of life. In today's episode of
Getting to Equal, Caroline Indianna talk with Tina Chen, the
(01:08):
president and CEO of Times Up. They'll discuss the workplace obstacles,
including sexual harassment and unequal pay, that make it hard
for women to succeed, and they offer solutions and perspectives
to help address those issues. Caroline, Indiana, thanks so much
for joining us again today. I'm very much looking forward
to hearing your conversation with Tina Chen. Thank you, Kim.
For the last few years, there has been a sustained
(01:30):
and focused national conversation on the experiences of women in
the workplace, and no conversation about women in the workplace
would be complete without talking about the hard things. One
of those topics is sexual harassment and the entire ecosystem
of issues that can make the workplace uncomfortable, unproductive, disrespectful,
(01:51):
and even unsafe for women. These issues can hold women back,
keep them from advancing, and even motivate them to leave
the work force entirely. You know, Dianna, It's something that
every company has to confront and must be constantly alert to.
Companies have a mandate to construct a work environment where
(02:14):
everyone feels safe and where everyone every individual can thrive. Now,
all workplace sexual harassment has been around for as long
as women have been in the workplace. In lateen things
reached a tipping point with revelations about Harvey Weinstein, followed
by headlines about so many other once powerful leaders but
(02:34):
this is a broader issue than sexual harassment. It's related
to pay equality and the fair treatment of people in
the workplace. And what's important to remember is that when
these topics are not discussed, or when unfairness goes unspoken,
and when action is not taken, you get a culture
where entire groups of people are marginalized and undervalued. You're
(02:56):
so right, Caroline. I am very happy to welcome a
woman who has, throughout her career been at the forefront
of the fight for workplaces that work for everyone. Tina
Chen is president and CEO of Time's Up, which was
started at the moment when the sexual harassment became a
front burner issue. Formally, Tina was assistant to President Obama,
(03:19):
Executive director of the White House Council on Women and Girls,
and chief of staff of former First Lady Michelle Obama.
Tina has a long history of advocating for gender equality,
particularly for working women. Time's Up is dedicated to ensuring
workplaces that are safe, dignified, and fair for women of
(03:39):
all kinds. I'm so excited to welcome you to the
podcast with us to day, Tina. Thank you for being here. Oh,
it's a real pleasure. To be here. Thanks for having me, Tina.
Let's start with what Time's Up is and why it
was started. You know, you were there from the beginning,
as you co founded the Times Up Legal Defense Fund
back in tell us about all of that. Well, you know,
(04:01):
as you mentioned, there was this moment in October when,
thanks to the reporting of the New York Times and
the New York magazine, um, the stories about Harvey Weinstein
cracked wide open. And what happened was women all of
a sudden realized they weren't alone up until that point.
So many of these women who were survivors of sexual
(04:22):
harassment in the entertainment business thought they had suffered alone.
Because actually that's one of the part of what I
call the predators playbook, right, which was to keep people
silent and siloed from one another so that the full
dimensions of the problem were unknown. Um And spontaneously, these
women started gathering in l a in late October just
(04:42):
to come together to support one another, having realized they
weren't alone. But to their credit, they very quickly turned
their personal pain into action. They wanted to figure out
what could they do, Recognizing they were women of privilege
with platforms that would affect women in other industries and
help them, and I happened to be in Los Angeles.
A lot of my life is just being in the
right place at the right time. You just never know.
(05:03):
And one of the things that became clear that we
needed to do was to create some mechanism to get
lawyers to help defend these women because the other part
of the predators playbook was playing itself out. And that
was as women started speaking up using the hashtag me
too that Toronto Burke had launched several years earlier. Was
they were getting threatened with defamation lawsuits, because that's what
(05:24):
used to happen. If you spoke out, you were going
to get sued, you know, by the predator, and that
could have shut the whole thing down. It also became
clear to me something as a lawyer I did not know,
and that was although you can get attorney's fees in
Title seven cases for sexual harassment, you can't get it
if you're a low wage worker, right because your wages
are so low, so the recovery is so low. So
(05:44):
if you are a victim of sexual harassment as a
restaurant worker, as a farm worker, you can't get somebody
to take your case, and so we needed, you know,
that little defense fund for them. So I'm really proud
that the National Women's Loss Center took it on. But
the part of Times Up that I'm now, you know,
the as in CEO of is our advocacy you know,
and impact lab research arm of the movement to really
(06:07):
you know, expand to the work that we're doing. And
what we're doing is number one, continuing to focus on
survivor justice always right, subborting survivors when they speak up,
like the Harvey Weinstein survivors during the Weinstein trial. But
we also know we don't want to just keep dealing
with the aftermath, right, you know, we don't want to
just be in a world where we're picking up the
pieces right after sexual harassment occurs. You know, to really
(06:30):
keep sexual harassment from happening, you have to deal with
all the structural barriers that are keeping women from having safe,
fair and dignified work. You know, that are keeping us
from having fully inclusive workplaces where women and people of
color and lgbt QA and disabled workers can fully thrive.
As you said, you know in the intro, and move
up the scale. We know, if it work places are
(06:52):
more inclusive, they are safer, right, and um, you know
we need to then therefore address all those such structural barry.
So it is things like pay equity and paid leave
and fairer hiring and promotion practices and the whole panempally
of structural barriers in our workplaces. And so that's our
mission is to you know, also work force safere and
(07:15):
dignified work through changing you know, um, people, company and laws,
so you know, really you know, addressing you know, public policy,
addressing companies and private policy, and addressing you know, our
culture and what we can do broadly in our world
with people so important. That's so important, Tina, and I
really appreciate the fact that you talk about fixing the
(07:38):
structural issues. We talk about it in our language as
fixed the system, but it is about getting at much
more breadth of what happens in the workplace. And so
i'm you know, there's such a significant impact to the workplace,
particularly workplaces were harassment and um it is part of
the culture. Can you talk a little bit about that. No,
(08:00):
it's an important question. I mean, when you when sexual
harassment is happening, that's a symptom, it's a symptom of
a toxic workplace. Right, once you get to the point
you know of um, you know, actual sexual assaults happening
in the workplace, you've really got something very broken, you know,
within a workplace. And let's be clear, sexual harassment occurs
on a spectrum. You know, we talk, you know, there's
(08:22):
a lot of attention to the Harvey Weinstein or the
less Moon Vez you know, types of actual criminal sexual
assault that we're happening in those cases. But harassment isn't
just that. It's also you know, the more subtle verbal
you know, harassment that occurs, you know, based on someone's gender,
or based on someone's race or disability. You know, the
(08:43):
cutting jokes, right, the belittling that happens. You know that
then there's also sort of an escalation that looks like
it's favorable, the I like what you're wearing, and how
about some drinks, and then let's go on a business trip.
And you know, you know, if at each moment, none
of as a manager, you don't stop that, you don't
address those microaggressions and those lesser forms of harassment, you
(09:08):
wind up with a workplace that's escalated all the way
to a place that's unsafe, and that affects your entire workplace. Right,
it's not just the fact that the women have to
suffer it. They're not as productive, they're not able to
bring their full selves to the workplace. They will leave
your workplace, so you're gonna lose your talent, will have
high turnover rates. Um. You know, there's also the bullying
(09:29):
that's not even sexual at all, you know, toxic workplace culture,
and that's not even illegal. But the legal the bar
for let bad behavior is really low. When you lose,
you use the legal definitions because things like just the
equal opportunity bullying, the guy who yells at everyone and
throws telephones of people's heads, it's not illegal. And in fact,
the winning defense in sexual harassment cases is to say, oh,
(09:54):
I don't just harass women, I harass everybody. And if
you add rass everybody, you win, You win the sexual
harassment case. But I would so believable, right, I would submit.
If you're and you all round, cup, you know you're
running a company, right, as managers, that's probably not the
workplace you want, right. That is not the kind of thriving,
productive workplace that you want to have. Um, and and
(10:18):
so that's why you've got to address culture, workplace culture,
you know, broadly, because that's what we're trying to fix,
UM and all of these other ways in which you
make sure you have a diverse and inclusive culture. UM
is part of it how you bring people who are
diverse into the workplace, but then also how people treat
one another in the workplace. UM. And I'm sure you
all know this. UM is that tone of the top manners, right,
(10:42):
you know, it starts at the top of a company.
You know, and I've been saying to see ears that
I've talked with, Look, this is every bit is important
right now, how you fix your culture as your new
technology is right or the latest real estate investment you're
gonna make is a company because your forces your talent
and you know right now, you know, the other thing
(11:04):
that happens or the negative enforcement from the Harvey Weinstein moment,
was all of a sudden companies realized, oh there's risk here. Right.
It's not just something that's kind of like a nice
to do for my employees thing. If I don't pay
attention to culture, there's huge enterprise risk here. UM. And
I think that was a motivator for companies to start changing.
You know, it's interesting. One of the things that we
(11:25):
talk a lot about is that, you know, in this
work you have to really hold two realities. And one
reality is that most men don't harass women, and the
other reality is that most women do not lie about
their experience of harassment or hostile work environments. I mean,
both of those things are true. And so you know,
(11:45):
peeling back the layers of the complexity of this issue
in the workplace is really difficult. Research tells us that
you're absolutely right, that is a very small percentage you know,
you know, somewhere less than ten percent of and are
you know, you know the people who are committing of
the sexual solves. And the problem there is there were
(12:07):
pe defenders, like when you tend to do this once,
you tend to do it over and over again, which
is why it's so important as employers to catch that
right so that it doesn't happen over and over. And
that's why that this this sort of silence that grew
up around silencing survivors and not talking about it in
a company and not people you know, employment actions being
(12:28):
taken in secret, so you didn't know who was a
sexual harasser and they could move to another part of
the company, for example, because it wasn't identified. You know,
um creates the problem and perpetuates it. And you're absolutely right.
I get the question all the time about what about
false reporting? Right? And again, what we know from the
sexual soult field, And there's been study after study to
try to demonstrate, you know, false reporting, and nobody has
(12:51):
been ever able to document anything higher than a seven
rate of false reporting, right, because think about it, people,
what you have to go through as a survivor, why
would you just make that up and bring it forward? Right?
And and so the vast majority of women who raise
these claims, you know, aren't lying about it. And but
here's the system. We don't we believe at times, up,
(13:14):
it isn't believe all survivors. That's not our call, you know,
it is survivors need to be heard, and they're you know,
what they're saying needs to be taken seriously, and there
doesn't need to be due process. You know, we're not
saying don't investigate and don't come out with a conclusion
at the end. And at the conclusion at the end
is it didn't happen. Well, then okay, Joe, but we
(13:35):
need a fair process where the survivors you know, story
was taken seriously and investigated, not just simply dismissed or
swept under the rock, which is what typically happens. Have
you seen any impact during the pandemic of either increased
or decrease impact of harassment, hostile work environment experiences of women?
(13:59):
You know, remember hara sment doesn't require physical presence, right,
And I think the misnomer is harassment is only happening
when I get you in the hotel room. That's not
that's maybe the far end of the extreme. But harassment
can happen on zoom calls, right. You know what people
what what? What? People? You know are people who are
shut down when they speak people, whether they're called, you know,
belittling names, are treated like they don't have you know,
(14:20):
they aren't you know, a serious participant in the Zoom meetings.
We've heard stories of women who are getting you know,
harassed by their you know, um uh manager because they're
calling them at three o'clock in the morning, making all
sorts of demands on them, you know, over the phone
or again, belittling their work, work product and their conduct. Um. So, Yes,
(14:40):
harassment can happen remotely. It's harder for managers to spot.
It's one of the things that prompted us actually, in
this moment of crisis, to put out something called the
Times of Guide to Equity and Inclusion during crisis, which
folks can get. You know, you can text the word
leaders to three zero six four four to get open
source free be the guide downloaded. Don't forget that when
(15:02):
you're working remotely. Not everyone's home space is a safe space,
right So the domestic violence Hotline has seen increases in calls,
you know, with everyone can find in the home, it's
not always a safe space for everyone, and employers should
be thinking about that too. We'll be back after this break, Tina,
(15:35):
this is such a fascinating conversation. I want to pivot
a little bit and we want to shift a discussion
to the issue of pay equality. Can let's talk about
what you're seeing right now for women in the area
of pay equality. Well, we just did a survey actually
at times U um U in the summer, we did
a a national survey with Chestadham and Perry and hum Research,
(15:59):
you know, uh to find out what people are thinking
about pay equity during a pandemic, during an economic crisis.
I was heartened because it showed that over an overwhelming
majority of both men and women, So we're talking about overall.
In the survey of men even agreed that addressing pay
(16:19):
equity even during a crisis is a critical important UM
priority that we all need to address. UM. It's very
different because I lived through the last Great Recession in
the White House, right and working you know, on the
White House counsel on Women and Girls, And what we
found back then was people just thought they just wanted
a job. You know, in issues of pay equity and
(16:42):
paid leave, we're just personal issues for me to figure out,
not public policy issues for legislators or something for my
manager and my employer to figure out. And that has
shifted in the last decade where people now recognize that
these issues of the structural barriers for working families. Our
issue is that we all need to care about Employers
need to care about public policy makers need to care
(17:04):
about UM. And that really showed on in our in
our survey. But you know, the downside was, you know
the huge impact that pay in equalities having, especially on
black women and Latin X women. You know, a majority
of Latin X women in our survey don't have two
hundred dollars in their bank account right now. They're struggling
(17:26):
to just make ends meet. Um uh. And you know
that that goes for you know, like forty percent of
black women. Um. And meanwhile that that's twelve percent of
white men are experiencing that. And you know, we also asked,
you know, what what would it take right what do
you need to succeed in your job? And pay quality,
you know, was one. They also know that they're not
(17:47):
getting pay equity because of race discrimination and gender discrimination. UM.
You know, we've you know, got majorities of black and
brown women who are saying they had to leave jobs
because of race and gender discrimination that was occurring. Um.
And they also point the way to the things that
we need, and it's all of the system fixes that
we've been talking about. They need jobs that include paid
(18:08):
leave and paid sick leave, you know, and better promotion practices. Um.
And those are the things so you know, even in
a pandemic moment, even in an economic crisis, what we're
trying to say to companies is this is the opportunity
to build your company back better. You know, build our
economy back better. Um, make sure that we are more
(18:29):
resilient for the future, because if we are, you know,
this is a time when you've actually stripped your company down, right,
if you furload everybody, then re examine your pay policies
and start bringing people back into jobs where the pay
inequity has been fixed. You know. So there's an opportunity
in this horrible crisis, and that is I've been lining
you know what we're going through to like stripping our economy,
(18:52):
and it was a house down to the bare foundations. Right,
everything is out of the house because everything is broken.
When the opportunity now is to build our structures back better, right,
when build and incorporate in them the things that we need.
You know that think about paid sicklely. We've been talking
a lot about paisickly as an example of this. You know,
we are one of you know, just a handful of
(19:14):
countries around the world that does not have some form
of national paisickly policy. Well, what if we and then
we had to scramble right to put an emergency one
into the Cares Act. I think what it would have
been if we had had one, If we had a
national paisickly policy going into the pandemic, If businesses had
been able to already build that cost into their business plan,
(19:35):
if workers knew they had paid sickly to take so
they could stay home if they were sick without risking
their job or their paycheck or their family member was sick.
You know, think how much better we would have been
and we could be right now in managing this pandemic.
And I would suggest to all of the business leaders
who are listening, you do not have to wait for
(19:57):
Congress to act. If Congress is acting slow or you're
staying legislature, you can set the policies in your company
that are more forward leaning and forward looking. And I
would suggest if you do that right now, you are
the business that's going to come out of the pandemic quicker,
come out of the recovery quicker, and will be more
resilient and ready for the next crisis, because we know
(20:17):
another one will come eventually, and you will be able
to build your business back better and more, you know, stronger,
with more talent that is deeply invested in your business.
You're absolutely right, Tina, and I want to go back
to pay equality through that same lens it's so important
that pay equality also be seen as an issue by
(20:39):
both women and men. It has to become the minimum
standard for companies looking at gender, race, disability, and more.
And there's a related topic which sets an even higher standard,
and that is wealth equality, which is starting to be
a broader conversation around the world. Wealth equality is about
(21:00):
the amount of wealth that women and men accumulate over
their careers. It relies on having women get equal access
to higher paying fields and higher paying jobs, and it
requires all of us to look at our total talent
bull when we're making advancement decisions. Otherwise those disparities remain
at every level, and then the compounding impact of that
(21:23):
creates a significant wealth gap for women versus men. A
P and G. We've declared that we want to have
fifty fifty representation at all levels of our company and
representation of multicultural individuals in the US. We are working
hard to ensure that we have women equally represented in
(21:43):
the highest paying roles, whether that's leading a business unit,
leading a technical center, or a manufacturing plant. And I'm
really proud to share that today forty percent of our
managers are women. Over of our c suite executives or women,
and of our dependent directors on our board are women.
(22:03):
Well unfamiliar with the work of PNG, and you you
all have been doing a great job. I mean you've
been intentional about it and put the work in and
that's what it requires. That is what it requires. Intentionality
is word we use so often, and as we've also
said so many times, we know that women are highly effective,
proven leaders, and we need to ensure that we give
(22:26):
them that equal opportunity to lead. And in fact, on
that note, Tina, I'd love to hear about the campaign
you've started at Times Up, which is called we Have
Her Back. So we launched you know, we Have Her
Back in August, right as Vice President Biden was a
speculation about who would he pick as his EP nominee
was happening, and myself and several other of my you know,
(22:49):
women women leaders that I know, we feel like we've
been to this movie before. We knew what was coming,
right and we could see it even before our nominee
was picked. The kind of misogynistic and also a racial
slurs and suggestive language um that we're being used, and
you know, we kind of decided we weren't going to
sit quietly like anymore about that? UM, And so we
(23:12):
launched you know, we have her Back in August hashtag
we have her Back. Interestingly, we co wrote myself and
several other women leaders co wrote a memo to news
editors UM just the weekend before Senator Harris was picked
as a VP nominee, and we sent it out that
that Friday morning, the weekend before before there was a nominee, saying,
you know, we know he's going to pick a woman.
(23:34):
Here's the thing you should watch out for in your reporting.
Don't call her ambitious. Don't focus on her clothes or
what she looks like, or what her husband did you know,
or her personal pass and lo and behold twenty four
not twenty four hours later, The New York Times ran
a headline about risk corsages and comparing you know, like
the last general lead for our race too. You know,
(23:56):
did Walter Mondo want to bring a risk corsage to
early for hour when they first met? And even worse,
l A Times ran a story that compared you know,
the VP nominee selection process to The Bachelor and compared
you know, the White House to the Ultimate Fantasy Suite.
It's like horrific, and they proved the case of why
(24:17):
we needed we have her back. And there's been so
many examples since then. And here's the problem, though, and
here's how it relates to what's happening inside your company
and other companies, is when women leaders are talked about
like that, we then you know, there's a reason why
we haven't been able to crack that highest class ceiling
of the presidents of the United States, because that's how
we talk about women leaders in our political discourse, and
(24:40):
therefore we don't see women leaders as being able to
occupy the highest homs. But it's not just that, you know,
political discourse is so permanent. You know, it is the
reason why not only can you not see a woman
as president in the United States or vice president of
the United States, you don't see your s CEO of
your company or a director of your company. You don't
(25:00):
see her as a district manager at that level. You know,
the server and a restaurant who aspires to be the
manager of a restaurant. The restaurant owners don't see her
in that way. Because we are getting culturated to thinking
of women not as women leaders, but as contestants on
the Bachelor, and that's why we did this. And it's
(25:20):
so deep. I have to say, right, this is this
is so much the social norms, and that's why we
want we have our back. We're trying to call it out,
not to do cancel culture. It's not that is to
get people to recognize the coded terms, the language they're using,
and push back against it and don't let that be
part of your decision making process, whether it's voting or
(25:42):
trying to figure out who's gonna be the next manager
in your company. That's exactly right, Tina. You know, I
want to go back to the perception and language we
use about women. You're talking about this earlier, but it's
not just about the vice presidential race, and it's not
just about one woman. I mean, we're o numb to
the language that's used in the media and online and
(26:04):
in everyday conversations that we don't even hear it anymore.
I just had to pause on that for a moment,
you know. I I keep saying to Caroline, I'm just
so mad, and I don't know who I should be
mad at. You don't know why you're mad, because it's
just coming from all sorts of places and you can't
even identify where it's coming from. Right. I had an
activist one described that we're all living in a soup, right,
(26:25):
and when you're in the middle of the soup, you
sort of can't see it, right, and it can't taste it,
and you can you don't know where the flavors are
coming from, but they're surrounding you, right. You know, you
need to sort of pull back from the soup and
taste it and be able to understand what's going on.
And that's what we're trying to do with we have
our back is at least peel back that veil of
what's the subtle signals that are affecting our culture. You know,
(26:47):
culture is really important. It affects how we think about people.
It's affects how we treat one another. You know, it
does affect the issues around um tangible things like wealth
inequality that we started talking about, because it affects, you know,
how people advance, how they're viewed in their workplace, how
they're evaluated. You know, Tina. The other thing that I
(27:07):
want to just go back to for a moment is
your comments earlier about the importance of national sickly, the
importance of parental leave, the importance of flexibility in our
policies that applies equally and gets used and adopted equally
by men and women, because it also broadens that opportunity
for men to play a bigger role at home with family,
(27:29):
with childcare, with schooling, with homework, with dental appointments, whatever
the case might be. And and that's another big important
part of this, because the more that we can broaden
the role and the norm for men, it also has
a positive impact for women. You know, we have to
start seeing UM women UH women's leadership as as something
(27:53):
that is highly effective and something we should expect. We
have to begin to see that men washing dishes, or
diapering babies or taking kids to school in the morning
is also the norm that we should come to expect,
and these policies are an important part of that as well. Oh,
it's interesting you mentioned that when I was in the
(28:13):
White House, you know, we had a huge working Families
agenda that we did and we worked on and we
actually had the first ever White House some of them
Working Families UM. And in one of the lead up
events to that large summit we had, there were so
many events on specific issues and one of them was
on men on stay at home dad's you know, and
the support that they need. There was a Mets player
(28:34):
who actually took two days off and missed a game
or two because for the birth of his son, and
was roundly supported by the Mets, by the way in
wait j League Baseball, but roundly criticized on sports radio, right,
And we brought him in to talk about it, and
there was there's a whole group of men who just
were mazed and that they were at the White House
talking about this. But the other thing that was striking
is that we had some child psychologists, you know, a
(28:57):
guy from Yale who came in and talked about the
fact that it's demonstrated that if men are involved with
their children, you know, in the zero to three range
of their lives, that has lifelong effects you know, on
child development, on child achievement. Absolutely, and you're absolutely right.
These need to be policies that are parental leave, not
(29:19):
maternal leave, you know, and men need to take it right.
So the other thing about tone at the top is
we need leaders at the top of the business to
set the tone in the business to take the leave.
When we build safer and dignified work. We're building it
for everyone, for everyone to succeed. You know. We had
a conversation with Eve Rodsky, uh, the author of a
book called fair Play, and one of the things that
(29:39):
we talked about with her on paid paternity leave is
that not only is that really healthy for families, it's
healthy for men. Um their outlook is better. But we
also connected it back into the workplace that men who
take paid paternity leave, paid parental leave come back into
the workplace and have much greater empathy for women that
(30:00):
are in that cycle as well, like they understand now
what that all means. UM. And so I think in
the world of creating workplaces that work for everyone at
when when they come back in UM, that is also
helpful for the women that they're working with who are
going through childcare leave as well. Oh absolutely, And you know,
and it is an ongoing thing. So it's not just
dvery re leave moment. Right, We're not experiencing a moment
(30:23):
where schools are closed, So what what are we doing
during the day for kids if you've got school aged kids,
but it's also elder care, you know, if they're if
they're sick, UM and yourself self care. So caregiving really
needs to get broadened and defined. And I am terribly worried.
You know, that we are in a new caregiving crisis
with this pandemic where you know, women are now opting
(30:45):
out of the workforce because they have no choice, so
there's no access to free or affordable childcare, and we
I'm deeply concerned that we will lose all the progress
we've made on women's labor force participation, where we're now
in the labor force, that during the course of this pandemic,
we're going to lose that, you know, and want employers
to start thinking about if you've got a lot empty
(31:08):
space now because you're only bringing half your workforce back
to the office, maybe use that empty space so child
aged school age kids can come to their school work,
you know, one floor down from mom or dad, you know,
so that mom and dad can actually come into the office.
I mean, I think we need to start getting a
little disruptive and a little creative in how we deliver
caregiving in this country and how do we support the
(31:31):
wages of these essential workers who are our caregivers and
who are predominantly women. We're taking the house down to
the foundation and building it differently, building it in a
new way. Again. I'm moving to a slightly new topic here,
but another industry that can probably use a reset is tech. Right.
Tech drives everything we do, everything we touch, but it
also has this huge gender gap. You know, I have
(31:54):
a computer science degree, and I think there were more
women graduating from computer science when I graduated in the
eighties than they are today, which is a crazy stat right,
And we need women in tech. We need women helping
to design the products, the systems, and the world that
we live in. UM there's a fun fact. PNG has
the highest the nation's highest average rate of women credited
(32:17):
with inventions, as determined by the number of patents that
they've been assigned. Now, women inventors at PNG had a
filing rate I think it's about which is higher than
institutions and companies like M I, T, Microsoft, Amazon, UM,
you know, and we make we make Tied and Pampers
and Dodd you know. But one of the reasons our
(32:38):
female inventor rate is so high is that of our
employees working in research and development are women. And when
you have diversity and invention, you get these products and
applications that work for all people. So you know, these
reset moments are so important. Well, absolutely, they used to
complain it was a pipeline problem. I don't actually think
it's a pipeline problem anymore. With increasing numbers of women
(33:00):
with computer science backgrounds who are out there, they just
are leaving, you know, and they're leaving because of the culture, right,
the broa culture. And we've seen a lot of that
um that happens. And I've addressed startups and I said, look,
you're a startup, but you need to actually invest in
this right way, because what happens with these startup companies
is HR isn't invested in you know, by the by
(33:22):
your angel investor. You're just dealing with the product. And
then all of a sudden you are big and international
and you get thousands of employees and a terrible culture
that does not support women or anyone who is different,
and then it affects your your product because you know,
there's all the stories for example about face recognition, right,
and face recognition being sort of completely sort of you know,
not recognizing black people, not really fully recognizing women. But
(33:46):
tech folks like to think, oh, you know, technology is neutral, right,
It's just the algorithms, but the algorithms got written by people, right,
and with people's biases, you know, built into it. It's
the same thing with women's heart disease not being recognized,
right because everything's been built on the examples of male
heart disease. I mean, there's so many places that it's present,
(34:07):
and it's so important that we that we get women
represented so that our world can be a better place
for all of us. So, Tina, this has been such
a great conversation, and I want to go back to
one other thing that we talked earlier and just put
it into words. What's bothering me so much about the
corsage comment and then the bachelor comment is that it's
(34:30):
just such a microaggression against all women and it keeps happening. Well,
it is because, as you know, the three of us
are women who grew up in business, right and you know,
I was. I was a corporate litigator for twenty three
years before I went to the White House and loved it,
and yet there were all those micro aggressions every day
that she had to sort of deal with. The you know,
I remember I had I had jurors who would tell
(34:52):
me after a jury trial you know, we were so
surprised you spoke English, so or you know, being mistaken
for the court reporter, you know when the deposition and starts,
So we have all of those things. So yeah, So Tina,
we just have one final question for you, if you
could leave our listeners with one final thought to remember.
Tell us what you're hopeful about right now? What makes
(35:13):
you get up in the morning and do the important
work that you're doing. Well, let me acknowledge it's a
tough time, right I think it still remains a very
tough time for all of us, you know, during this
unprecedented pandemic moment. So it's it's tough. I've been experiencing
some of the toughness of of being isolated. You know
that many of us are experiencing. UM. But I will
tell you what gives me hope and keeps me up
(35:33):
is the enthusiasm and the activism that's out there. You know,
I think people are rising to the occasion, um, to
this moment. This is a transformational moment. And you know
it was thrust upon us, you know, um, by by
nature and and it's a global transformational moment, and it
as an opportunity for us to seize that moment and
(35:56):
you know, make a turn for the good, you know,
and not go back to an old stay as quote
that wasn't working for so many people. But to build
really a new future, and new economic future, a new
workplace future, um and and so that that I'm thrilled
by that opportunity that we have, and I'm thrilled by
the energy that I see in so many sectors to
(36:17):
do it. Tina, thank you so much. This has been
such a fun conversation. It's been a real joy. Gosh, Tina,
such fantastic work you're doing. Thank you. That was so powerful.
Tina Chen is a force to be reckoned with. Here
(36:37):
are a few points that I took away from today's conversation,
and they all ladder up to Tina's main message that
women deserve a safe, fair and dignified workplace. First, sexual
harassment is a symptom of a workplace that is broken,
one that keeps women out of positions of power. That's
why when dealing with the issue of sexual harassment, we
need to also fix the wider systemic issues that hold
(36:59):
women back. Second, as we've said before in this series,
now is the time to reframe our thinking about women.
We need to ask ourselves why do society often talk
about women only in terms of what they look like,
what they wear, or what their husbands do. That kind
of thinking undermines all of us. It keeps us from
envisioning women as managers, as directors, or as CEOs. Frankly,
(37:22):
it keeps us from envisioning women as the leaders they
actually are. Third, closing the wealth gap for women is imperative.
That means giving women not just equal pay, but access
to the jobs that come with higher pay. And it
means advocating for workplace policies like parentally and child care.
These kinds of interventions allow both women and men to
(37:43):
go for the higher paying jobs. And if you want
a free copy of the Time's Up Guide to Equity
and Inclusion during Crisis, text the word leaders to three
oh six dash four four and join us Next week
when Caroline and Dana talked a spoken word poet and
podcast uster Amina Brown and consultant and author Tara J.
(38:03):
Frank about the path to equality. Have a great week.
You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose,
brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
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to Seneca Women conversations on power and purpose on the
(38:23):
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