May 5, 2021 • 15 mins
This special, six-part series, done in collaboration with MAKERS, features conversations about fostering diversity, equality and inclusion in the workplace. Guest hosted by Amena Brown—poet, author and host of the podcast HER with Amena Brown—today's episode features best-selling author Luvvie Ajayi Jones, Netflix CMO Bozoma Saint John, and Daisy Auger-Dominguez, Chief People Officer at Vice Media Group.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm Kim Azzarelli and you're listening to Seneca's conversations on
power and purpose. I am so delighted to partner with
Makers on the special six part series called Keep Going.
In this series, we listen to incredible conversations from Makers
Conferences with a special focus on d e I. The
goal is to use these podcasts as a jumping off
(00:30):
point for conversations about d e I in your own organization.
I want to give a special thanks to the Makers
Conference sponsors, PNG, Price Waterhouse Coopers an official wellness sponsor
Lulu Lemon. Now. We launched the Seneca Women podcast Network
about a year ago with founding partner PNG and I
(00:50):
Heart Radio with the goal of amplifying the voices of
women around the world. You probably know that podcasting is
a fast growing industry, with over fifty cent of podcast
audience being women. But what you may not know is
that only twenty of top podcasts are hosted by women.
We want to change that, so we are launching dozens
(01:11):
of women focused and women led podcasts. So if you
have a show where you want to collaborate on a show,
reach out to us at info at Seneca Women dot com.
Now it gives me great pleasure to introduce our guest
host for the Keep Going series, Amina Brown. Amina is
a spoken word poet, author and host of the podcast
Her with Amina Brown on the Seneca Women Podcast Network. Amina,
(01:36):
thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Kim so
excited to be the guest host of this special series
and collaboration with Makers. And I have special feelings about
Makers because it was one of the events that I
got a chance to attend in the before times in
the beginning of it was so inspiring to be in
(01:56):
that space and that is the place where Kim and
I met. And now under Senecal Woman Podcast Network, we
are making podcasts like these, so that's really exciting. And
today we're going to listen to an excerpt from an
incredible conversation between Love and Gi E. Jones, New York
Times best selling author, speaker and podcast host, and Bozama St. John,
(02:18):
Chief marketing Officer at Netflix. This conversation took place at
the Maker's Conference back in February, and before we get
into the conversation, I have to tell you my first
time listening to Bozama and Love you talk about this,
it just reminded me of all the times that I've
entered certain workplaces, certain meetings, certain business opportunities and felt
(02:38):
that feeling that maybe I needed to put on some
type of armor or try to be anything but myself
to to fit in or do whatever it seemed necessary
to do to be in that environment. And in this conversation,
I hope that you'll be encouraged as I was, to
remember to be your full self, to bring who you
are to the table. Right and following this conversation sation,
(03:00):
I'll be joined by Daisy oj Domingus, chief people Officer
at Vice Media Group, and Daisy and I are going
to talk about what we just heard and she'll give
us her takeaways and how we can bring back these
lessons from Lovey and Bosama into our own workplaces. So
let's take a listen to what Bosama and Lovey have
to say. What is the armor that you put on
(03:22):
to face the date? The scary day? I am dressed
to kill? Okay, Okay, I am going to say the
things that sometimes are scary to say in rooms in
which sometimes it feels like my voice is not supposed
to be as loud as it is, and I do
that in my way that I appear, and I do
(03:43):
that in my spirit because that's what allows this is
what allows for me to fully show through, you know,
for me to fully be in. And by the way,
I'm not afraid of my difference. I'm not afraid of
looking different. And so one it gives me the freedom
to even lean into that, to get even further into that.
Because said, I'm not gonna be a white man. It's
not happening. This is not happening. You know. I'm I'm
(04:05):
tired of the shrinking. I'm not shrinking. I don't want
any to shrink in these spaces. You know. It's like, listen,
if if we're not supposed to be here and I
am here, oh, then you're gonna see all of this.
It was like, yes, I will wear the red head
to toe with my big afro, and I will show
up a few minutes later that you're forced to look
at me as I walk in, and you have to
deal because I'm excellent at what I do. The red
(04:25):
outfit is backed up by some red hot heat that
I have in my brain and on the page. So
let's not get that twisted. It's not just out here
shining for no reason. There's also a lot of steel
behind the shine. I have learned over time that it's
not just about the look, right. I learned that very
(04:46):
early on, because what happened to me, and what happens
to a lot of women who are in the corporate spaces,
is that you are told to look a certain way, right,
and maybe even not directly, but certainly indirectly. You know
what a look is, you know what you're supposed to
be when you're in these spaces. And I recognize that
being that superficially did not help me in those places.
(05:13):
You know, it just it didn't. It didn't matter, like
my ideas were the same, the inside of the same.
The ex was trying to fit into and trying to
assimilate into a culture that was not mine, and the
image that was built was not did not, was not
created with me in mind, and so I had to
focus on what was inside. And I know that sounds
(05:34):
like duh, well, of course you had to focus on
what's inside, But no, that's not what happens to us.
We're so distracted by trying to fit in superficially right,
by trying to split down the hair so it doesn't
stick up, trying to sit on our hands so that
we don't gesture, trying to control of our voice so
that it doesn't go too high and you sound angry
(05:56):
or you sound too assionate. We do that so much
that it is to acts us from actually the real work,
because how can you do both? You know, how how
can you be expected to be excellent if you're concentrating
on all these other things. That's where your energy goes.
And so as soon as I let go of that stuff,
as soon as I let go of those expectations and
trying to be this thing that other people wanted to be,
(06:18):
I was actually able to then let the work shine,
you know, put all the energy into my work so
that I could actually come up with the best goddamn ideas. Oh,
I am already riveted. What a great conversation, and I
am delighted to be joined by Daisy of J Dominguez.
(06:39):
Daisy is Chief people Officer at Vice Media Group, and
she has a book coming out next year called Inclusion Revolution,
based on a popular TEDx talk she gave in Welcome Daisy,
Thank you, Amina. I'm so glad to be here. So Daisy,
can you start off and give me we're hearing in
this conversation between Lovey and Bozima, this idea of how
(07:02):
we can bring our full authentic self into the workplace.
Can you talk about how did you even begin that
process and what does that look like now at this
point in your career. You know, well, let's be clear,
for years we've been asking people to bring their authentic
selves to the workplace, but we don't talk about the
risks and the dangers of doing that for so many
(07:22):
of us, and the early part of my career, it
wasn't lost on me that people that looked like me
were often sidelined, marginalized, and drawn out to invisibility. You
quickly learned that you have to spend your energy, as
as Bosama said, you're trying to fit in into white
professional norms, and that can be suffocating. You know, for me,
(07:43):
that meant ensuring that there was not a trace of
an accent to be heard or anything that could be
called out in my appearance that seemed too ethnic or
overly sexualized. And it took me time to stop doubting
my abilities and not feel like an impostor in organizations
that are not designed for people like me. And you know,
(08:04):
as I heard Bosama speak. You know, I remember that
along the way, there were many times that I gave
up small parts of myself. I let my courage, strength,
I let my voice diminish. Even as I was fighting
to bring more seats to the table, I had to
desperately fight to earn and keep my own while watching
others face far less hurdles. And so that that authenticity,
(08:27):
that courage that I showed today, that's been slowly revealing
to me over the years. And it's been about no
longer letting toxic managers set up roadblocks for my success
or having peers questioned my value. It's about building deep
and lasting friendships and communities in our workplaces of support
(08:48):
and of of of encouragement. And it's also been about
recognizing that my vulnerability doesn't diminish my capacity to lead,
it enhances it. And that's what I bring to the workplace.
Come on, Daisy, I just I appreciate you bringing nuance
into that. This is a process, because sometimes we enter
(09:09):
the workplace and we feel like I have to have
all of this together now in my in my first moment,
in my first meeting, or I'm starting this new job.
I gotta have it all together and it's a process.
It's a process for everybody. I think sometimes we see
other people in our workplaces and think, man, look at
that person, how confident they seem when they walk in
a room and you're not knowing behind the scenes, that's
(09:30):
been a process in their professional experience. I really appreciate
you adding that today. Also, can you give us some
takeaways here, because when we are talking about things like
what it really looks like to do the work of inclusion,
to do the work of diversity, to do the work
of equity right in some of our workplaces, we're starting
(09:53):
to enter an ethereal conversation. We're starting to have sort
of a pie in the sky kind of thoughts about this,
but we actually need practical steps of what do we
do based on what we're hearing? Lovy and those of
my bring into this conversation. Tell me what are your
takeaways you would give for people, for people who are
leading in their workplaces. What's the stuff to do? Now?
(10:18):
There's so much stuff, but I like to frame it
in threes um and I think every manager, every leader,
needs to do three things to nurture workplaces that work
for everyone. First, reflect and listen. Everyone wants to immediately
jump to solutions, but you can't solve a complex structural
problem that you don't understand. So take responsibility for your
(10:40):
own learning by asking better questions and really listening. What
are the biases that hold back women, non binary people,
by POC, l g B, t Q, and other coworkers
from marginalized communities at my workplace? What am I overlooking
or tolerating that goes on said for for years and years?
(11:02):
What are the assumptions, habits, or practices that hold me
back from creating an inclusive and equitable work environment. Ask
yourself that question and take time to really reflect and listen. Now,
the second is show that you care. There's a lot
of pressure for leaders to have all the answers, and
the truth is you do. You do not have to
(11:23):
know all the answers, but you have to show evidence
of care, that you really care and that you're willing
to put the effort. Sometimes people just want to acknowledgement
that you see them the difficulty they're facing, and that
you care about them. That means engaging and navigating difficult conversations,
not shrinking away from them, not just simply calling yourself
(11:45):
an ally, but doing the work of an ally and
that takes us to number three, which is to own
this work, create and support fresh organizational practices, programs, and policies. Fresh,
not the old school way of it, but the new
world of work. This. This means looking at processes that
do not disadvantage any race or gender group before they
(12:07):
even get a chance to succeed. Take a close look
at everything, what's there, what meets updating, what are you missing?
And then address the weaknesses and striped bias and discriminatory
practices that are either formal or informal out of your hiring,
your compensation, your performance, and your advancement practices. I mean,
I engage in this work because I believe change is possible,
(12:30):
and I'm trying to make work safe, equitable, and inclusive
for all people because it is possible, worthy and important.
And in order to do that, I'm counting on you
and everyone who's watching this to help realize this vision,
because it's up to all of us to drive this
change forward. Yeah, oh Daisy, thank you for sharing with us.
(12:51):
First of all, for sharing with us some challenges that
we all can do in our workplaces that we we have.
We all have some places we can step up to
this work. And thank you for bringing your expertise to
this table today, Daisy. Thank you so much, so great
my pleasure. Thank you Amina, Daisy. Yes, every time I
(13:13):
hear Daisy, I not only want to listen to what
she says, but I also want to take action and
do something about the things that she says. And speaking
of do something, let's ask ourselves three questions. I want
you to think about this. What are the habits or
practices that are currently holding you back from creating a
more inclusive work environment. What are the ways that you
(13:37):
can bring care and thoughtfulness to your leadership, to your
ally ship, to how you do the work that diversity,
equity and inclusion requires in your own workplace? And how
can you create fresh policies, fresh programs, fresh practices that
would better support your team and support the war of diversity,
(14:00):
equity and inclusion on your team? And think this is
just a little of west to come. What an incredible conversation.
I hope you found it as valuable as I did,
so tune in next Wednesday for another amazing maker's conversation
about how we can all contribute to making progress in
the workplace. You're listening to Seneca's conversations on power and purpose.
(14:24):
Brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
I Heart Radio with support from founding partner PNG. Listen
to Seneca's conversations on power and purpose on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
For more information on Seneca Women, follow us on social
media or visit our website at Seneca Women dot com
I'm Kim Azzarelli and you're listening to Seneca's conversations on
power and purpose. I am so delighted to partner with
Makers on the special six part series called Keep Going.
In this series, we listen to incredible conversations from Makers
Conferences with a special focus on d e I. The
goal is to use these podcasts as a jumping off
(00:30):
point for conversations about d e I in your own organization.
I want to give a special thanks to the Makers
Conference sponsors, PNG, Price Waterhouse Coopers an official wellness sponsor
Lulu Lemon. Now. We launched the Seneca Women podcast Network
about a year ago with founding partner PNG and I
(00:50):
Heart Radio with the goal of amplifying the voices of
women around the world. You probably know that podcasting is
a fast growing industry, with over fifty cent of podcast
audience being women. But what you may not know is
that only twenty of top podcasts are hosted by women.
We want to change that, so we are launching dozens
(01:11):
of women focused and women led podcasts. So if you
have a show where you want to collaborate on a show,
reach out to us at info at Seneca Women dot com.
Now it gives me great pleasure to introduce our guest
host for the Keep Going series, Amina Brown. Amina is
a spoken word poet, author and host of the podcast
Her with Amina Brown on the Seneca Women Podcast Network. Amina,
(01:36):
thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Kim so
excited to be the guest host of this special series
and collaboration with Makers. And I have special feelings about
Makers because it was one of the events that I
got a chance to attend in the before times in
the beginning of it was so inspiring to be in
(01:56):
that space and that is the place where Kim and
I met. And now under Senecal Woman Podcast Network, we
are making podcasts like these, so that's really exciting. And
today we're going to listen to an excerpt from an
incredible conversation between Love and Gi E. Jones, New York
Times best selling author, speaker and podcast host, and Bozama St. John,
(02:18):
Chief marketing Officer at Netflix. This conversation took place at
the Maker's Conference back in February, and before we get
into the conversation, I have to tell you my first
time listening to Bozama and Love you talk about this,
it just reminded me of all the times that I've
entered certain workplaces, certain meetings, certain business opportunities and felt
(02:38):
that feeling that maybe I needed to put on some
type of armor or try to be anything but myself
to to fit in or do whatever it seemed necessary
to do to be in that environment. And in this conversation,
I hope that you'll be encouraged as I was, to
remember to be your full self, to bring who you
are to the table. Right and following this conversation sation,
(03:00):
I'll be joined by Daisy oj Domingus, chief people Officer
at Vice Media Group, and Daisy and I are going
to talk about what we just heard and she'll give
us her takeaways and how we can bring back these
lessons from Lovey and Bosama into our own workplaces. So
let's take a listen to what Bosama and Lovey have
to say. What is the armor that you put on
(03:22):
to face the date? The scary day? I am dressed
to kill? Okay, Okay, I am going to say the
things that sometimes are scary to say in rooms in
which sometimes it feels like my voice is not supposed
to be as loud as it is, and I do
that in my way that I appear, and I do
(03:43):
that in my spirit because that's what allows this is
what allows for me to fully show through, you know,
for me to fully be in. And by the way,
I'm not afraid of my difference. I'm not afraid of
looking different. And so one it gives me the freedom
to even lean into that, to get even further into that.
Because said, I'm not gonna be a white man. It's
not happening. This is not happening. You know. I'm I'm
(04:05):
tired of the shrinking. I'm not shrinking. I don't want
any to shrink in these spaces. You know. It's like, listen,
if if we're not supposed to be here and I
am here, oh, then you're gonna see all of this.
It was like, yes, I will wear the red head
to toe with my big afro, and I will show
up a few minutes later that you're forced to look
at me as I walk in, and you have to
deal because I'm excellent at what I do. The red
(04:25):
outfit is backed up by some red hot heat that
I have in my brain and on the page. So
let's not get that twisted. It's not just out here
shining for no reason. There's also a lot of steel
behind the shine. I have learned over time that it's
not just about the look, right. I learned that very
(04:46):
early on, because what happened to me, and what happens
to a lot of women who are in the corporate spaces,
is that you are told to look a certain way, right,
and maybe even not directly, but certainly indirectly. You know
what a look is, you know what you're supposed to
be when you're in these spaces. And I recognize that
being that superficially did not help me in those places.
(05:13):
You know, it just it didn't. It didn't matter, like
my ideas were the same, the inside of the same.
The ex was trying to fit into and trying to
assimilate into a culture that was not mine, and the
image that was built was not did not, was not
created with me in mind, and so I had to
focus on what was inside. And I know that sounds
(05:34):
like duh, well, of course you had to focus on
what's inside, But no, that's not what happens to us.
We're so distracted by trying to fit in superficially right,
by trying to split down the hair so it doesn't
stick up, trying to sit on our hands so that
we don't gesture, trying to control of our voice so
that it doesn't go too high and you sound angry
(05:56):
or you sound too assionate. We do that so much
that it is to acts us from actually the real work,
because how can you do both? You know, how how
can you be expected to be excellent if you're concentrating
on all these other things. That's where your energy goes.
And so as soon as I let go of that stuff,
as soon as I let go of those expectations and
trying to be this thing that other people wanted to be,
(06:18):
I was actually able to then let the work shine,
you know, put all the energy into my work so
that I could actually come up with the best goddamn ideas. Oh,
I am already riveted. What a great conversation, and I
am delighted to be joined by Daisy of J Dominguez.
(06:39):
Daisy is Chief people Officer at Vice Media Group, and
she has a book coming out next year called Inclusion Revolution,
based on a popular TEDx talk she gave in Welcome Daisy,
Thank you, Amina. I'm so glad to be here. So Daisy,
can you start off and give me we're hearing in
this conversation between Lovey and Bozima, this idea of how
(07:02):
we can bring our full authentic self into the workplace.
Can you talk about how did you even begin that
process and what does that look like now at this
point in your career. You know, well, let's be clear,
for years we've been asking people to bring their authentic
selves to the workplace, but we don't talk about the
risks and the dangers of doing that for so many
(07:22):
of us, and the early part of my career, it
wasn't lost on me that people that looked like me
were often sidelined, marginalized, and drawn out to invisibility. You
quickly learned that you have to spend your energy, as
as Bosama said, you're trying to fit in into white
professional norms, and that can be suffocating. You know, for me,
(07:43):
that meant ensuring that there was not a trace of
an accent to be heard or anything that could be
called out in my appearance that seemed too ethnic or
overly sexualized. And it took me time to stop doubting
my abilities and not feel like an impostor in organizations
that are not designed for people like me. And you know,
(08:04):
as I heard Bosama speak. You know, I remember that
along the way, there were many times that I gave
up small parts of myself. I let my courage, strength,
I let my voice diminish. Even as I was fighting
to bring more seats to the table, I had to
desperately fight to earn and keep my own while watching
others face far less hurdles. And so that that authenticity,
(08:27):
that courage that I showed today, that's been slowly revealing
to me over the years. And it's been about no
longer letting toxic managers set up roadblocks for my success
or having peers questioned my value. It's about building deep
and lasting friendships and communities in our workplaces of support
(08:48):
and of of of encouragement. And it's also been about
recognizing that my vulnerability doesn't diminish my capacity to lead,
it enhances it. And that's what I bring to the workplace.
Come on, Daisy, I just I appreciate you bringing nuance
into that. This is a process, because sometimes we enter
(09:09):
the workplace and we feel like I have to have
all of this together now in my in my first moment,
in my first meeting, or I'm starting this new job.
I gotta have it all together and it's a process.
It's a process for everybody. I think sometimes we see
other people in our workplaces and think, man, look at
that person, how confident they seem when they walk in
a room and you're not knowing behind the scenes, that's
(09:30):
been a process in their professional experience. I really appreciate
you adding that today. Also, can you give us some
takeaways here, because when we are talking about things like
what it really looks like to do the work of inclusion,
to do the work of diversity, to do the work
of equity right in some of our workplaces, we're starting
(09:53):
to enter an ethereal conversation. We're starting to have sort
of a pie in the sky kind of thoughts about this,
but we actually need practical steps of what do we
do based on what we're hearing? Lovy and those of
my bring into this conversation. Tell me what are your
takeaways you would give for people, for people who are
leading in their workplaces. What's the stuff to do? Now?
(10:18):
There's so much stuff, but I like to frame it
in threes um and I think every manager, every leader,
needs to do three things to nurture workplaces that work
for everyone. First, reflect and listen. Everyone wants to immediately
jump to solutions, but you can't solve a complex structural
problem that you don't understand. So take responsibility for your
(10:40):
own learning by asking better questions and really listening. What
are the biases that hold back women, non binary people,
by POC, l g B, t Q, and other coworkers
from marginalized communities at my workplace? What am I overlooking
or tolerating that goes on said for for years and years?
(11:02):
What are the assumptions, habits, or practices that hold me
back from creating an inclusive and equitable work environment. Ask
yourself that question and take time to really reflect and listen. Now,
the second is show that you care. There's a lot
of pressure for leaders to have all the answers, and
the truth is you do. You do not have to
(11:23):
know all the answers, but you have to show evidence
of care, that you really care and that you're willing
to put the effort. Sometimes people just want to acknowledgement
that you see them the difficulty they're facing, and that
you care about them. That means engaging and navigating difficult conversations,
not shrinking away from them, not just simply calling yourself
(11:45):
an ally, but doing the work of an ally and
that takes us to number three, which is to own
this work, create and support fresh organizational practices, programs, and policies. Fresh,
not the old school way of it, but the new
world of work. This. This means looking at processes that
do not disadvantage any race or gender group before they
(12:07):
even get a chance to succeed. Take a close look
at everything, what's there, what meets updating, what are you missing?
And then address the weaknesses and striped bias and discriminatory
practices that are either formal or informal out of your hiring,
your compensation, your performance, and your advancement practices. I mean,
I engage in this work because I believe change is possible,
(12:30):
and I'm trying to make work safe, equitable, and inclusive
for all people because it is possible, worthy and important.
And in order to do that, I'm counting on you
and everyone who's watching this to help realize this vision,
because it's up to all of us to drive this
change forward. Yeah, oh Daisy, thank you for sharing with us.
(12:51):
First of all, for sharing with us some challenges that
we all can do in our workplaces that we we have.
We all have some places we can step up to
this work. And thank you for bringing your expertise to
this table today, Daisy. Thank you so much, so great
my pleasure. Thank you Amina, Daisy. Yes, every time I
(13:13):
hear Daisy, I not only want to listen to what
she says, but I also want to take action and
do something about the things that she says. And speaking
of do something, let's ask ourselves three questions. I want
you to think about this. What are the habits or
practices that are currently holding you back from creating a
more inclusive work environment. What are the ways that you
(13:37):
can bring care and thoughtfulness to your leadership, to your
ally ship, to how you do the work that diversity,
equity and inclusion requires in your own workplace? And how
can you create fresh policies, fresh programs, fresh practices that
would better support your team and support the war of diversity,
(14:00):
equity and inclusion on your team? And think this is
just a little of west to come. What an incredible conversation.
I hope you found it as valuable as I did,
so tune in next Wednesday for another amazing maker's conversation
about how we can all contribute to making progress in
the workplace. You're listening to Seneca's conversations on power and purpose.
(14:24):
Brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
I Heart Radio with support from founding partner PNG. Listen
to Seneca's conversations on power and purpose on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
For more information on Seneca Women, follow us on social
media or visit our website at Seneca Women dot com
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