October 14, 2020 • 31 mins
In episode 6 of our special, six-part series, Getting to Equal, advertising executive Madonna Badger, founder of #WomenNotObjects and founder and chief creative officer of Badger & Winters, talks to Carolyn Tastad, Group President, North America and Deanna Bass, Vice President, Global Diversity, Equality and Inclusion—both of P&G. Their conversation focuses on how each of us can use our individual voice, platform or influence to accelerate equality.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, This is Milan Vervier and this is Kim Azzarelli.
We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose, and you're listening to
Seneca's conversations on power and Purpose. Welcome to this special edition.
(00:25):
This new six part series called Getting to Equal will
change the way you think about women and leadership, and
it comes at a time when women's leadership has never
been more crucial. We have two amazing leaders who are
guest hosting these six episodes, Carol and Tastad, Group President
North America and Deiana Bass, vice President Global Diversity, Equality
(00:45):
and Inclusion, both from PNG, one of the largest consumer
goods companies in the world. Together, Caroline and Deiana have
created an impressive gender equality strategy for PNG, and it's
a strategy that's really breaking new ground on these issues
in the private sector. In today's episode of Getting to Equal,
Caroline Indianna discuss how each of us can use our
own unique voice, really our own superpower to make progress
(01:09):
towards equality. Their guest today is the incredible Madonna Badger,
the legendary advertising executive. Carolin and Diana, thanks so much
for joining us again today. I am really looking forward
to the conversation with Madonna. Thank you, Kim. So today
we're going to talk about finding your superpower, and we're
going to talk to someone who has certainly found hers.
(01:32):
So what do we mean by finding your superpower? Well,
it's finding that place where each of us, as individuals,
as companies or organizations of any kind can have the
greatest impact and then take action to accelerate progress for
all people in the workplace and frankly, in the world.
You know that's so right, Diana. We all have superpowers,
(01:52):
large and small, and we know that we make the
most progress for equality when we all decided to get
in the game. We started thinking about this really in
the very beginning when we were defining our overall strategy
for gender equality at p AND. We knew we had
to be very choiceful in defining the work that we
would do. We knew we had to be intentional to
(02:12):
have the greatest impact, and we chose three areas to
focus on. One was using our voice in advertising to
tackle bias and speak up. Two was using our influence
to ensure access to education and economic opportunities for girls
and women. And finally, ensuring that at p AND we
built a workplace that would enable women to thrive, to
(02:36):
bring to life our aspiration for representation at all levels
with multicultural representation in the US, and we know that
when we access our superpowers, we can raise the bar
and we can build a better world for all women
and all men, equality for all individuals in however they
(02:59):
define themselves. Joining us for this conversation is a woman
dubbed the Lioness Who Roared. Thirty year advertising veteran and
founder of hashtag Women Not Objects, Madonna Badger is founder
and chief creative officer of Badger and Winters. After a
pivotal announcement that the agency would no longer create work
(03:21):
that objectified women, Badger and Winters took home Advertising Ages
coveted Small Agency of the Year award in two thousand sixteen. Recently,
add Week named Madonna a disruptor for spearheading a revolution
in the advertising industry, and the four A's recognized her
as one of the one hundred people who make advertising great.
(03:46):
I am so thrilled and happy to introduce you to
our friend, a creative partner of ours, Madonna Badger. It's
so great to be here. Thank you. It's such a
nice introduction. It is so great to have you hear
mad on it. I can think of no one better
to talk about using their own superpower to eradicate bias
(04:07):
and advance equality. During these podcasts, we've been speaking with
extraordinary individuals who have amazing platforms, all using their voices
and their influence to accelerate progress for women. And you
know we love Badger and Winters. But for those who
are listening and who don't know your agency, tell us
a little bit about it well at Badgroom Winters UM
(04:29):
and Jim Winters is my business partner and has been
for the last sixteen years. Our idea is to build
a brave agency culture that helps others create brave brands,
and that this focus on brave and purposeful work has
really attracted a group of talented, passionate, and very diverse
(04:53):
people That makes us incredibly proud. These individuals are inspired
by the way our open, supportive and collaborative culture helps
them to thrive. This also helps us to attract the
kind of clients that we want to have. Clients like
Ola who is with Rocktern Gamble of course UM, clients
(05:16):
like Rice is where we did hashtag no Kids in
cages UM and also doing our own work like hashtag
women not Objects. I love that you brought up women
uh not objects, so I want to start there. That
was UM in two thousand and sixteen. I believe that
you launched that campaign importantly. It put a spotlight on
(05:37):
widespread objectification of women in advertising and frankly helped open
a multi year dialogue and the advertising industry about its
responsibility to ethically represent women in all forms of advertising.
Hashtag women not Objects has had over thirty one million
views on YouTube and Facebook in over a hundred and
(05:58):
seventy five countries. That's just amazing. So tell us a
little bit about women not objects. Well, women not Objects
was created to really help people see the way that
women were objectified and add all around them an outdoor
on television, uh, in print, in fashion, in alcohol and liquor,
(06:21):
in UM, in every industry, in every way, in every medium, UM,
women were being objectified. And what do I mean by that?
I mean that they were treated as a prop a
body part, so super sensual used to sell you know,
a ball of the CARDI or I've even seen it
(06:42):
for a grocery store, UM with a cattoop and then
the other is plastic, so really retouched beyond human recognition.
I've got a great example of women not objects. It
was Christmas, um and fifth Avenue, and on this billboard
were three young women. Um. They were completely naked. Um.
(07:05):
They all had the exact same pair of shoes on.
They were like retouched so that their bodies all looked
the same, their skin all looked the same, basically, And
it was such an incredible way to objectify um, these
three very powerful supermodels. UM. And I just couldn't believe
how many people were walking by with their children and
(07:27):
sort of not even thinking about it. That has huge
impact on young girls when they see stuff like that.
You've also done films about that as well. Yeah, it does.
In our In our second film we did, it was
all about the harm and there were teenage girls, um
taking cellophane and wrapping around their thighs as many times
(07:47):
as they could, um, so that you know they had
they would get a thigh gap. UM. And you know,
I couldn't help but put those sort of two things together,
These three women on if Avenue in every magazine and
you know, these young girls trying to get a flag up.
You know, the other thing that Um that you did
(08:09):
that I thought was amazing is that you showed children advertisements. Yeah. Well,
I mean they were only outdoor ads, so they were
ads that children could presumably see anyway. So we showed
them those outdoor ads. And you know, one girl said,
(08:30):
it makes me feel bad about my body when seeing like,
you know, a half naked lady Gaga ad or. Um.
You know, one little boy said, it's private. You know
that's private. You're not supposed to show that part. And
you know, it made them feel less than and it
made them feel like it was a secret, private world
(08:52):
that little children aren't supposed to be a part of. Yeah,
there's the one little boy that said, I'm uncomfortable with this.
I don't want to look at it anymore. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
This was a real labor of love for you, wasn't it.
So I had just come back from my hiatus um
where you know, as you all well know, my um
(09:15):
children Lily, Sarah and Grace and my parents all died
in a fire on Christmas Day. So I came back
to my agency and I knew I wanted to do something.
I wanted to do something with purpose. Um. I didn't
want to just sell stuff anymore. You know. I wanted
(09:37):
to find something to say um because on my hiatus
I had tried uh selling antique sofas with my friend Kate.
It was told disaster. So I knew that I was
really good at advertising. So I wanted to do something
that was good for the world. We made a move,
(09:57):
a little film, and it went viral really quickly. But
the place I really wanted to go and the place
I really wanted everybody to see it was it Can
just for the audience here because and not everybody will
know why is CAN so important. CAM was important to
me because this is where all of the international creative
(10:19):
directors come, and so do clients, and so do you know,
brand managers and strategists. But it was really the creative
directors that I wanted to get in front of because
I felt like if they could see this film, if
they could understand the harm that they were causing young women,
you know, little girls one in four who had you
(10:42):
know at this point, who had been on a diet
um by the age of eleven in the US. You know,
just horrific stuff that um that happens, especially to children,
that if they could see what what I what I
was talking about, if they could hear or if they
could understand that, they wouldn't want to cause any harm
(11:03):
to anybody. And so that's why it was, you know,
I mean, it was so important to us that Jim
and I faked a business trip to London so we
could meet with the can Lion people. Like, we're here
for a client, so we're just worrying. Could we like
come over and talk to you a little bit more
about this hashtag women do objects things? Can you tell
(11:25):
people what can Lions are. Can Lions are the international
oscars of advertising. They are the be all end all,
They create the most coveted prize and um. And so
my number one goal was for them to see it.
(11:46):
And then the number two goal was to get the
jury rules changed. UM, so as you know it can
juries make decisions about what pieces of war will be awarded. Now,
the rules are that if you objectify a woman or man,
or you know, anybody in an ad, you are automatically disqualified.
(12:11):
Your piece of work is automatically thrown out. And that's
a huge, huge intervention that was made, and that was
made honestly a very short time ago. We talked about
system changes to help us get to where we accurately
and authentically portray people in advertising. Absolutely. Yeah, Madonna, I
want to echo what Caroline is saying. It is really
(12:34):
incredible what you're doing. It can and the fact that
you're impacting an entire industry that is really hard. I
mean that is a superpower. And the fact that you
are leading a change that makes sure there are little
girls out there seeing things that are unattainable to them
and thinking that they're supposed to be something that they
can never be. That is amazing. Madonna. Yeah, Madonna, so
(12:57):
so true. It's it's just incredible. Thank you. It felt
really good. We'll be back after this break, Madonna. When
we saw your Women Not Objects campaign, we knew that
you were the person and the creative agency that we
(13:18):
wanted to work with on our global gender equality campaign,
someone who would help us tell a story in a
really compelling way. And your idea for the campaign was
we See Equal, and we loved it from the first
time we saw it, so tell us about we See Equal. Basically,
it came from the idea that gender is a human
(13:40):
construct and that um, everything that we portrayed together and
we See Equal has no gender, So the and why
is that important? Because that's where stereotypes are born. Diapers,
you know, equal women, uh, supposedly, households yours, equal women,
(14:01):
supposedly men equal head of household, women equals love, and
so all of those um constructs. We turned on the
ted and we said love doesn't care who gives it,
households don't care who run them, diapers don't care who
changed them. And we did the whole thing with YouTube
(14:21):
or found footage UM to show real people living their
real lives um doing the sort of things that we
all do in our lives. But we flipped the script
on every single person that we showed. Anyway, it was
really the beginning of a great journey for for all
of for me for sure, I'll say for us as well,
(14:43):
and a journey that continues. So you know that film
that we see equal film is just as relevant today
as it was three years ago. And I love the
way you say it's about flipping the script because one
of the things that we keep encountering is these myths,
these false narratives that are still alive in the world,
and they still get perpetuated, and we have to be
(15:05):
very overt in helping people see that that's not the
reality of our world. But we have to stop giving
them air. And you know, we talk a lot about
the impact that advertising can have in our world. As
you know, Madonna P ANDNG is the world's largest advertiser,
and we know that we can have a really big
impact with our voice and that's why we call it
(15:27):
our superpower. And we've committed to use our voice in
advertising and all other media to really tackle bias and
to speak out on issues that are important to us,
important to our employees, and important to all the people
that buy our products. And we know that advertising can
spark conversations, it can create dialogue that really changes mindset.
(15:50):
You know, are Always Like a Girl campaign is a
great example of that. Right when we started that campaign,
only nineteen percent of those that we herbeyed thought that
the expression like a girl stood for something positive. It
was really seen as a derogatory comment, Oh you do
this like a girl today? And this is really only
(16:12):
five years after that. For Super Bowl ad more than
people associate the phrase like a girl with something positive,
with something empowering. So from over eight in five years,
that's changing mindsets. And you know, Madonna, you and I.
We've talked a lot about how advertising has changed, right,
(16:34):
how consumers expectation of advertising has changed, making it really
important for brands and companies to speak out or have
a voice on these kind of issues, on what's happening
in a world today. Why is this so important? Well,
I mean you know, this year, UM, you guys won
(16:54):
Marketer of the Decade at can Lion, and I think
you know it's beak because you have been the world's
leader of understanding the need for transparency, for change, for
ending gender bias, for using your voice to be a
force of good in this world. And you know I
(17:16):
watch you guys, and you have been such a driving
force for gender equity, UM, from not only we see equal,
but to all of the different initiatives that you've put
through at P and G. So nobody really knows more
than you guys of the power of connection, UM, the
power of connection based on empathy and love. So I
(17:40):
think that you guys truly understand that six of the
United States believes that companies are where the power for
change will come from, not governments. UM. And so you know,
as the world's largest advertiser, where you have taken the
world with the advertising that you support and taking the
(18:04):
risks has made all advertisers have to rise with that tide.
And I think that's, you know, a miracle. I really
really do. I think it's a miracle. Um. I never
dreamt that I would see anything like that in my lifetime. Um,
from when I was, you know, fifteen years old watching
(18:24):
Melrose Place want to move to New York City. So uh, anyway,
it's it's a joy and it and you and obviously
it's what every generation needs is for brands to be brave,
you know. Um. One of the things that we kind
of hold as a mission of ours is to drive
the accurate and authentic portrayal of all people in our advertising.
(18:47):
So that means, you know, multicultural people represented authentically. It
means showing dad's changing diapers because that's what they do.
It means showing men doing dishes and cleaning the floors.
It means showcasing like multigenerational and blended family, same sex couples,
single parents, single parent households, people with disabilities. Um. And
(19:11):
it means showing women who look like real women. So
authenticity is very important to us, and you have been
an important partner in that mission with us. So why
is authenticity today so important in your mind? UM? Well,
I can say for the brand UM, which I've worked
(19:31):
on for about three years now. UM, you know, just
recently we made it a no retouching brand, so nothing
on the face gets retouched, which is an extraordinary move.
You know, everybody gets zits if you have it on
our set on that day, it's going to be shown
(19:51):
because it's real and it's authentic. And I think that
people are so awareness now of because the world is
so transparent um in many many ways, people are so
aware of false messages and false hope. Young women especially
(20:16):
want to be authentic, want to be want to be
accepted as their authentic selves. That's why we see body
positivity is such a huge part of the world. It's
why you know, we see diversity as being absolutely must
have because we are all equal. I think the future,
(20:37):
I think coming out of COVID, coming out of a
very painful real time, will make us want to be
even more real with one another, tell the truth to
one another. I think. I think that's so well said.
And I think authenticity is um as you say, what
people aspire to. And I think when when you don't
(20:58):
have it. You know, the flip side is of the
words and the pictures don't match, whether it's in the
issue that you're standing up for or how you're portraying
people in the advertising. Um. In today's world, you get
called on that as we should, right because consumers, uh,
society communities today are holding us to a hired standard.
And I think that's so good for all of us.
(21:19):
So yes, that's that's what authenticity can provide. You know.
One of the other things we talked about system changes
and the need for system changes to really advance progress.
And another change that's really important in advertising is equal
representation in the creative supply chain. So so not only
(21:41):
in front of the camera, who are we filming and
what are we developing in the content of our campaigns,
but behind the camera and making sure that uh, in
our in our company, in the agencies that we work
with on the creative with the directors and producers behind
the camera, were really aspiring for a quality and full
intersectional equality. Uh. Now, as you said at p and
(22:04):
you know, we've we've made some great progress there. We've
got a fifty fifty brand team across our company. We've
got fifty fifty representation at the major agencies, the creative
agencies that we work with and in North America behind
the camera, more than half of our ads are directed
by women. So progress, uh, progress, But we're not done
and we have a little bit more to do. But
(22:25):
that's certainly been an important driver for us. I think
that's absolutely right. So much of our focus was the
front of what happened, but now it is more the
focuses on who's behind the camera well, and and we
know in many cases it delivers such a better result, right, yes, yes,
that's part of It's the end to end, it delivers
such a great result and free the BID I think
(22:47):
has been a huge part of that. Um. There are
other organizations that have been a big part of it.
Are super Bowl ad this year, UM for l A UM,
which I can't believe I had a Super Bowl this year.
But UM, anyway, we isn't that amazing? Yeah, it just
feels like what and but we had more than fift
(23:11):
behind the camera. UM. Our editor was female, our our
executive producer was female. Director obviously was female. UM. On
my side of the table, everybody was female except for
one man. And it felt incredible. To have so many
women create such a big, big ad. So, Madonna, you
(23:36):
know that the advertising industry is still one of the
industries that is largely seen as a man's industry still today. Um.
In fact, there's a study done by the Gina Davis
Institute that found across some two thousand advertisements that they
looked at, only one third of the roles in any
advertisement went to women. They also found that women had
(23:59):
signal efficantly lass screen time um, and that they spoke
about less than men did in terms of the dialogue
and commercials. The other conclusion that they found, which I
thought was really interesting and it's obvious but still interesting,
is that just putting more women in commercials and giving
them more speaking parts is not going to solve the
(24:21):
problem in the industry. That it was the teams behind
the advertising that had to change. So what that means
is more creative officers, more women writing scripts, and more
women directing them. That's another example of a real system
change that needs to happen. Well, you know what does
this mean for women of color, for multicultural women, because
(24:43):
that that also becomes that's even harder. It's such a
problem for how things work because it just doesn't get
us the best product, It doesn't give us the best outcome,
the best messaging, the best creative, the best advertising, because
we're just under utilizing all the talent that's of eliable
to us. You know, we just did an led job
(25:03):
and we hired a young black woman as our photographer
and a young Latina director. We knew that we wanted
women of color to do this job for us, and
we were not going to take no for an answer.
I don't know any other way than to try and
support these young up and coming multicultural women. Speaking of that, Madonna,
(25:28):
developing up and coming multicultural women in advertising. Tell us
about see it be It, So see it be It is.
Um the can Lions mentoring program for young women creatives,
and um, they come from all over the world, and um,
(25:50):
I'm the ambassador right now. So oh no, I'm the chairperson.
I don't know they have all these titles. You're important
in this very important. I am very I'm like an
uber mentee mentor at this point. But anyway, the point
is is that mentorship is really, in so many ways
the answer to breaking down systems, because that one on
(26:13):
one relationship teaches me so much about the young What
these young women need, UM, how who I am and
how I can give it, UM, what I know and
what I can say, and then what I don't know,
and and they can answer for me. You know. It's
such a two way street, and I think my benefit
(26:36):
is way greater than their's. That's a great program, and
they are some of the luckiest women in advertising to
be coached and mentored by you, and they worked hard
to get there, I mean really hard. There you go. Well, Madonna,
it's been great, and you're such a good friend and
such an extraordinary visionary and you're such a good role
model for using your platform for good. So I have
(27:00):
a final question for you, and it's a two part question.
What do we need to tackle next for gender equality
and within the advertising industry? What's the next frontier? I
I really think that in order for our country and
our economy to grow, we have to take on childcare
(27:24):
and what that means to working women UM in this country.
Once that is solved and universal childcare actually happens, that
is when we will have true equality. You're exactly right.
I'm so glad that you said that. We have talked
about this many times in this podcast. We will not
(27:45):
have equality in the workplace until we have equality at home.
And given that women take a disproportionate responsibility for home
and family, universal childcare would be a huge accelerator for equality. Yes,
it trans sends everything. It's universal in the industry. I
think what's next is that? UM, I don't know. I
(28:09):
think it's it's such a hard time. UM. I think
that really what's next. And when I've been really lucky
to work on is brand relevancy and brand reputation. UM.
I think that is you know, what people truly want
(28:32):
and is what really does make it really does make
a huge difference. UM within you know, whatever industry that
you're working in. I think that's exactly right. And uh, Madonna,
I just want to say thank you for using your
superpower to change the world through your platform, whether it's advertising, creative,
(28:55):
your ideas. Um and and frankly you're mentoring, you know,
helping to bring other people into this field and let
their voices be heard as well. So it's been a pleasure.
Thanks for spending time with us, Thanks for having me.
What a great and powerful conversation. We all owe a
(29:16):
huge thanks to Madonna Badger for working to change an
entire industry, and for ensuring that commercials and ads portray
women truthfully and authentically. Here are some of the key
points that I got out of a conversation. First, media,
as we know it is one of the most powerful
influences in our lives, which is why we need to
hold advertisers and producers accountable for what they show. If
(29:39):
we want to get to equal, we need to make
sure that advertising depicts women as they truly are, as leaders,
as contributors, powerful and three dimensional. And as Madonna reminds us,
we all have the ability to advance progress, each of
us in our own way. For Madonna, that meant using
her experience in advertising to change the way women are
portrayed no longer as objects, but it's actual human beings.
(30:03):
You can see Madonna's groundbreaking video at Women Not Objects
dot com and you can check out We See Equal
on YouTube. Now. This is the final episode in our
special six part series Getting to Equal, and I want
to thanks Caroline Taskdat and Deianna Bass for guest hosting
and for showing how we can all help to make
progress towards equality. You can listen to all six episodes
(30:25):
of Getting to Equal on Seneca's Conversations on power and purpose.
Have a great day. You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations
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(30:48):
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and other opportunities to get involved. Four
Hi, This is Milan Vervier and this is Kim Azzarelli.
We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose, and you're listening to
Seneca's conversations on power and Purpose. Welcome to this special edition.
(00:25):
This new six part series called Getting to Equal will
change the way you think about women and leadership, and
it comes at a time when women's leadership has never
been more crucial. We have two amazing leaders who are
guest hosting these six episodes, Carol and Tastad, Group President
North America and Deiana Bass, vice President Global Diversity, Equality
(00:45):
and Inclusion, both from PNG, one of the largest consumer
goods companies in the world. Together, Caroline and Deiana have
created an impressive gender equality strategy for PNG, and it's
a strategy that's really breaking new ground on these issues
in the private sector. In today's episode of Getting to Equal,
Caroline Indianna discuss how each of us can use our
own unique voice, really our own superpower to make progress
(01:09):
towards equality. Their guest today is the incredible Madonna Badger,
the legendary advertising executive. Carolin and Diana, thanks so much
for joining us again today. I am really looking forward
to the conversation with Madonna. Thank you, Kim. So today
we're going to talk about finding your superpower, and we're
going to talk to someone who has certainly found hers.
(01:32):
So what do we mean by finding your superpower? Well,
it's finding that place where each of us, as individuals,
as companies or organizations of any kind can have the
greatest impact and then take action to accelerate progress for
all people in the workplace and frankly, in the world.
You know that's so right, Diana. We all have superpowers,
(01:52):
large and small, and we know that we make the
most progress for equality when we all decided to get
in the game. We started thinking about this really in
the very beginning when we were defining our overall strategy
for gender equality at p AND. We knew we had
to be very choiceful in defining the work that we
would do. We knew we had to be intentional to
(02:12):
have the greatest impact, and we chose three areas to
focus on. One was using our voice in advertising to
tackle bias and speak up. Two was using our influence
to ensure access to education and economic opportunities for girls
and women. And finally, ensuring that at p AND we
built a workplace that would enable women to thrive, to
(02:36):
bring to life our aspiration for representation at all levels
with multicultural representation in the US, and we know that
when we access our superpowers, we can raise the bar
and we can build a better world for all women
and all men, equality for all individuals in however they
(02:59):
define themselves. Joining us for this conversation is a woman
dubbed the Lioness Who Roared. Thirty year advertising veteran and
founder of hashtag Women Not Objects, Madonna Badger is founder
and chief creative officer of Badger and Winters. After a
pivotal announcement that the agency would no longer create work
(03:21):
that objectified women, Badger and Winters took home Advertising Ages
coveted Small Agency of the Year award in two thousand sixteen. Recently,
add Week named Madonna a disruptor for spearheading a revolution
in the advertising industry, and the four A's recognized her
as one of the one hundred people who make advertising great.
(03:46):
I am so thrilled and happy to introduce you to
our friend, a creative partner of ours, Madonna Badger. It's
so great to be here. Thank you. It's such a
nice introduction. It is so great to have you hear
mad on it. I can think of no one better
to talk about using their own superpower to eradicate bias
(04:07):
and advance equality. During these podcasts, we've been speaking with
extraordinary individuals who have amazing platforms, all using their voices
and their influence to accelerate progress for women. And you
know we love Badger and Winters. But for those who
are listening and who don't know your agency, tell us
a little bit about it well at Badgroom Winters UM
(04:29):
and Jim Winters is my business partner and has been
for the last sixteen years. Our idea is to build
a brave agency culture that helps others create brave brands,
and that this focus on brave and purposeful work has
really attracted a group of talented, passionate, and very diverse
(04:53):
people That makes us incredibly proud. These individuals are inspired
by the way our open, supportive and collaborative culture helps
them to thrive. This also helps us to attract the
kind of clients that we want to have. Clients like
Ola who is with Rocktern Gamble of course UM, clients
(05:16):
like Rice is where we did hashtag no Kids in
cages UM and also doing our own work like hashtag
women not Objects. I love that you brought up women
uh not objects, so I want to start there. That
was UM in two thousand and sixteen. I believe that
you launched that campaign importantly. It put a spotlight on
(05:37):
widespread objectification of women in advertising and frankly helped open
a multi year dialogue and the advertising industry about its
responsibility to ethically represent women in all forms of advertising.
Hashtag women not Objects has had over thirty one million
views on YouTube and Facebook in over a hundred and
(05:58):
seventy five countries. That's just amazing. So tell us a
little bit about women not objects. Well, women not Objects
was created to really help people see the way that
women were objectified and add all around them an outdoor
on television, uh, in print, in fashion, in alcohol and liquor,
(06:21):
in UM, in every industry, in every way, in every medium, UM,
women were being objectified. And what do I mean by that?
I mean that they were treated as a prop a
body part, so super sensual used to sell you know,
a ball of the CARDI or I've even seen it
(06:42):
for a grocery store, UM with a cattoop and then
the other is plastic, so really retouched beyond human recognition.
I've got a great example of women not objects. It
was Christmas, um and fifth Avenue, and on this billboard
were three young women. Um. They were completely naked. Um.
(07:05):
They all had the exact same pair of shoes on.
They were like retouched so that their bodies all looked
the same, their skin all looked the same, basically, And
it was such an incredible way to objectify um, these
three very powerful supermodels. UM. And I just couldn't believe
how many people were walking by with their children and
(07:27):
sort of not even thinking about it. That has huge
impact on young girls when they see stuff like that.
You've also done films about that as well. Yeah, it does.
In our In our second film we did, it was
all about the harm and there were teenage girls, um
taking cellophane and wrapping around their thighs as many times
(07:47):
as they could, um, so that you know they had
they would get a thigh gap. UM. And you know,
I couldn't help but put those sort of two things together,
These three women on if Avenue in every magazine and
you know, these young girls trying to get a flag up.
You know, the other thing that Um that you did
(08:09):
that I thought was amazing is that you showed children advertisements. Yeah. Well,
I mean they were only outdoor ads, so they were
ads that children could presumably see anyway. So we showed
them those outdoor ads. And you know, one girl said,
(08:30):
it makes me feel bad about my body when seeing like,
you know, a half naked lady Gaga ad or. Um.
You know, one little boy said, it's private. You know
that's private. You're not supposed to show that part. And
you know, it made them feel less than and it
made them feel like it was a secret, private world
(08:52):
that little children aren't supposed to be a part of. Yeah,
there's the one little boy that said, I'm uncomfortable with this.
I don't want to look at it anymore. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
This was a real labor of love for you, wasn't it.
So I had just come back from my hiatus um
where you know, as you all well know, my um
(09:15):
children Lily, Sarah and Grace and my parents all died
in a fire on Christmas Day. So I came back
to my agency and I knew I wanted to do something.
I wanted to do something with purpose. Um. I didn't
want to just sell stuff anymore. You know. I wanted
(09:37):
to find something to say um because on my hiatus
I had tried uh selling antique sofas with my friend Kate.
It was told disaster. So I knew that I was
really good at advertising. So I wanted to do something
that was good for the world. We made a move,
(09:57):
a little film, and it went viral really quickly. But
the place I really wanted to go and the place
I really wanted everybody to see it was it Can
just for the audience here because and not everybody will
know why is CAN so important. CAM was important to
me because this is where all of the international creative
(10:19):
directors come, and so do clients, and so do you know,
brand managers and strategists. But it was really the creative
directors that I wanted to get in front of because
I felt like if they could see this film, if
they could understand the harm that they were causing young women,
you know, little girls one in four who had you
(10:42):
know at this point, who had been on a diet
um by the age of eleven in the US. You know,
just horrific stuff that um that happens, especially to children,
that if they could see what what I what I
was talking about, if they could hear or if they
could understand that, they wouldn't want to cause any harm
(11:03):
to anybody. And so that's why it was, you know,
I mean, it was so important to us that Jim
and I faked a business trip to London so we
could meet with the can Lion people. Like, we're here
for a client, so we're just worrying. Could we like
come over and talk to you a little bit more
about this hashtag women do objects things? Can you tell
(11:25):
people what can Lions are. Can Lions are the international
oscars of advertising. They are the be all end all,
They create the most coveted prize and um. And so
my number one goal was for them to see it.
(11:46):
And then the number two goal was to get the
jury rules changed. UM, so as you know it can
juries make decisions about what pieces of war will be awarded. Now,
the rules are that if you objectify a woman or man,
or you know, anybody in an ad, you are automatically disqualified.
(12:11):
Your piece of work is automatically thrown out. And that's
a huge, huge intervention that was made, and that was
made honestly a very short time ago. We talked about
system changes to help us get to where we accurately
and authentically portray people in advertising. Absolutely. Yeah, Madonna, I
want to echo what Caroline is saying. It is really
(12:34):
incredible what you're doing. It can and the fact that
you're impacting an entire industry that is really hard. I
mean that is a superpower. And the fact that you
are leading a change that makes sure there are little
girls out there seeing things that are unattainable to them
and thinking that they're supposed to be something that they
can never be. That is amazing. Madonna. Yeah, Madonna, so
(12:57):
so true. It's it's just incredible. Thank you. It felt
really good. We'll be back after this break, Madonna. When
we saw your Women Not Objects campaign, we knew that
you were the person and the creative agency that we
(13:18):
wanted to work with on our global gender equality campaign,
someone who would help us tell a story in a
really compelling way. And your idea for the campaign was
we See Equal, and we loved it from the first
time we saw it, so tell us about we See Equal. Basically,
it came from the idea that gender is a human
(13:40):
construct and that um, everything that we portrayed together and
we See Equal has no gender, So the and why
is that important? Because that's where stereotypes are born. Diapers,
you know, equal women, uh, supposedly, households yours, equal women,
(14:01):
supposedly men equal head of household, women equals love, and
so all of those um constructs. We turned on the
ted and we said love doesn't care who gives it,
households don't care who run them, diapers don't care who
changed them. And we did the whole thing with YouTube
(14:21):
or found footage UM to show real people living their
real lives um doing the sort of things that we
all do in our lives. But we flipped the script
on every single person that we showed. Anyway, it was
really the beginning of a great journey for for all
of for me for sure, I'll say for us as well,
(14:43):
and a journey that continues. So you know that film
that we see equal film is just as relevant today
as it was three years ago. And I love the
way you say it's about flipping the script because one
of the things that we keep encountering is these myths,
these false narratives that are still alive in the world,
and they still get perpetuated, and we have to be
(15:05):
very overt in helping people see that that's not the
reality of our world. But we have to stop giving
them air. And you know, we talk a lot about
the impact that advertising can have in our world. As
you know, Madonna P ANDNG is the world's largest advertiser,
and we know that we can have a really big
impact with our voice and that's why we call it
(15:27):
our superpower. And we've committed to use our voice in
advertising and all other media to really tackle bias and
to speak out on issues that are important to us,
important to our employees, and important to all the people
that buy our products. And we know that advertising can
spark conversations, it can create dialogue that really changes mindset.
(15:50):
You know, are Always Like a Girl campaign is a
great example of that. Right when we started that campaign,
only nineteen percent of those that we herbeyed thought that
the expression like a girl stood for something positive. It
was really seen as a derogatory comment, Oh you do
this like a girl today? And this is really only
(16:12):
five years after that. For Super Bowl ad more than
people associate the phrase like a girl with something positive,
with something empowering. So from over eight in five years,
that's changing mindsets. And you know, Madonna, you and I.
We've talked a lot about how advertising has changed, right,
(16:34):
how consumers expectation of advertising has changed, making it really
important for brands and companies to speak out or have
a voice on these kind of issues, on what's happening
in a world today. Why is this so important? Well,
I mean you know, this year, UM, you guys won
(16:54):
Marketer of the Decade at can Lion, and I think
you know it's beak because you have been the world's
leader of understanding the need for transparency, for change, for
ending gender bias, for using your voice to be a
force of good in this world. And you know I
(17:16):
watch you guys, and you have been such a driving
force for gender equity, UM, from not only we see equal,
but to all of the different initiatives that you've put
through at P and G. So nobody really knows more
than you guys of the power of connection, UM, the
power of connection based on empathy and love. So I
(17:40):
think that you guys truly understand that six of the
United States believes that companies are where the power for
change will come from, not governments. UM. And so you know,
as the world's largest advertiser, where you have taken the
world with the advertising that you support and taking the
(18:04):
risks has made all advertisers have to rise with that tide.
And I think that's, you know, a miracle. I really
really do. I think it's a miracle. Um. I never
dreamt that I would see anything like that in my lifetime. Um,
from when I was, you know, fifteen years old watching
(18:24):
Melrose Place want to move to New York City. So uh, anyway,
it's it's a joy and it and you and obviously
it's what every generation needs is for brands to be brave,
you know. Um. One of the things that we kind
of hold as a mission of ours is to drive
the accurate and authentic portrayal of all people in our advertising.
(18:47):
So that means, you know, multicultural people represented authentically. It
means showing dad's changing diapers because that's what they do.
It means showing men doing dishes and cleaning the floors.
It means showcasing like multigenerational and blended family, same sex couples,
single parents, single parent households, people with disabilities. Um. And
(19:11):
it means showing women who look like real women. So
authenticity is very important to us, and you have been
an important partner in that mission with us. So why
is authenticity today so important in your mind? UM? Well,
I can say for the brand UM, which I've worked
(19:31):
on for about three years now. UM, you know, just
recently we made it a no retouching brand, so nothing
on the face gets retouched, which is an extraordinary move.
You know, everybody gets zits if you have it on
our set on that day, it's going to be shown
(19:51):
because it's real and it's authentic. And I think that
people are so awareness now of because the world is
so transparent um in many many ways, people are so
aware of false messages and false hope. Young women especially
(20:16):
want to be authentic, want to be want to be
accepted as their authentic selves. That's why we see body
positivity is such a huge part of the world. It's
why you know, we see diversity as being absolutely must
have because we are all equal. I think the future,
(20:37):
I think coming out of COVID, coming out of a
very painful real time, will make us want to be
even more real with one another, tell the truth to
one another. I think. I think that's so well said.
And I think authenticity is um as you say, what
people aspire to. And I think when when you don't
(20:58):
have it. You know, the flip side is of the
words and the pictures don't match, whether it's in the
issue that you're standing up for or how you're portraying
people in the advertising. Um. In today's world, you get
called on that as we should, right because consumers, uh,
society communities today are holding us to a hired standard.
And I think that's so good for all of us.
(21:19):
So yes, that's that's what authenticity can provide. You know.
One of the other things we talked about system changes
and the need for system changes to really advance progress.
And another change that's really important in advertising is equal
representation in the creative supply chain. So so not only
(21:41):
in front of the camera, who are we filming and
what are we developing in the content of our campaigns,
but behind the camera and making sure that uh, in
our in our company, in the agencies that we work
with on the creative with the directors and producers behind
the camera, were really aspiring for a quality and full
intersectional equality. Uh. Now, as you said at p and
(22:04):
you know, we've we've made some great progress there. We've
got a fifty fifty brand team across our company. We've
got fifty fifty representation at the major agencies, the creative
agencies that we work with and in North America behind
the camera, more than half of our ads are directed
by women. So progress, uh, progress, But we're not done
and we have a little bit more to do. But
(22:25):
that's certainly been an important driver for us. I think
that's absolutely right. So much of our focus was the
front of what happened, but now it is more the
focuses on who's behind the camera well, and and we
know in many cases it delivers such a better result, right, yes, yes,
that's part of It's the end to end, it delivers
such a great result and free the BID I think
(22:47):
has been a huge part of that. Um. There are
other organizations that have been a big part of it.
Are super Bowl ad this year, UM for l A UM,
which I can't believe I had a Super Bowl this year.
But UM, anyway, we isn't that amazing? Yeah, it just
feels like what and but we had more than fift
(23:11):
behind the camera. UM. Our editor was female, our our
executive producer was female. Director obviously was female. UM. On
my side of the table, everybody was female except for
one man. And it felt incredible. To have so many
women create such a big, big ad. So, Madonna, you
(23:36):
know that the advertising industry is still one of the
industries that is largely seen as a man's industry still today. Um.
In fact, there's a study done by the Gina Davis
Institute that found across some two thousand advertisements that they
looked at, only one third of the roles in any
advertisement went to women. They also found that women had
(23:59):
signal efficantly lass screen time um, and that they spoke
about less than men did in terms of the dialogue
and commercials. The other conclusion that they found, which I
thought was really interesting and it's obvious but still interesting,
is that just putting more women in commercials and giving
them more speaking parts is not going to solve the
(24:21):
problem in the industry. That it was the teams behind
the advertising that had to change. So what that means
is more creative officers, more women writing scripts, and more
women directing them. That's another example of a real system
change that needs to happen. Well, you know what does
this mean for women of color, for multicultural women, because
(24:43):
that that also becomes that's even harder. It's such a
problem for how things work because it just doesn't get
us the best product, It doesn't give us the best outcome,
the best messaging, the best creative, the best advertising, because
we're just under utilizing all the talent that's of eliable
to us. You know, we just did an led job
(25:03):
and we hired a young black woman as our photographer
and a young Latina director. We knew that we wanted
women of color to do this job for us, and
we were not going to take no for an answer.
I don't know any other way than to try and
support these young up and coming multicultural women. Speaking of that, Madonna,
(25:28):
developing up and coming multicultural women in advertising. Tell us
about see it be It, So see it be It is.
Um the can Lions mentoring program for young women creatives,
and um, they come from all over the world, and um,
(25:50):
I'm the ambassador right now. So oh no, I'm the chairperson.
I don't know they have all these titles. You're important
in this very important. I am very I'm like an
uber mentee mentor at this point. But anyway, the point
is is that mentorship is really, in so many ways
the answer to breaking down systems, because that one on
(26:13):
one relationship teaches me so much about the young What
these young women need, UM, how who I am and
how I can give it, UM, what I know and
what I can say, and then what I don't know,
and and they can answer for me. You know. It's
such a two way street, and I think my benefit
(26:36):
is way greater than their's. That's a great program, and
they are some of the luckiest women in advertising to
be coached and mentored by you, and they worked hard
to get there, I mean really hard. There you go. Well, Madonna,
it's been great, and you're such a good friend and
such an extraordinary visionary and you're such a good role
model for using your platform for good. So I have
(27:00):
a final question for you, and it's a two part question.
What do we need to tackle next for gender equality
and within the advertising industry? What's the next frontier? I
I really think that in order for our country and
our economy to grow, we have to take on childcare
(27:24):
and what that means to working women UM in this country.
Once that is solved and universal childcare actually happens, that
is when we will have true equality. You're exactly right.
I'm so glad that you said that. We have talked
about this many times in this podcast. We will not
(27:45):
have equality in the workplace until we have equality at home.
And given that women take a disproportionate responsibility for home
and family, universal childcare would be a huge accelerator for equality. Yes,
it trans sends everything. It's universal in the industry. I
think what's next is that? UM, I don't know. I
(28:09):
think it's it's such a hard time. UM. I think
that really what's next. And when I've been really lucky
to work on is brand relevancy and brand reputation. UM.
I think that is you know, what people truly want
(28:32):
and is what really does make it really does make
a huge difference. UM within you know, whatever industry that
you're working in. I think that's exactly right. And uh, Madonna,
I just want to say thank you for using your
superpower to change the world through your platform, whether it's advertising, creative,
(28:55):
your ideas. Um and and frankly you're mentoring, you know,
helping to bring other people into this field and let
their voices be heard as well. So it's been a pleasure.
Thanks for spending time with us, Thanks for having me.
What a great and powerful conversation. We all owe a
(29:16):
huge thanks to Madonna Badger for working to change an
entire industry, and for ensuring that commercials and ads portray
women truthfully and authentically. Here are some of the key
points that I got out of a conversation. First, media,
as we know it is one of the most powerful
influences in our lives, which is why we need to
hold advertisers and producers accountable for what they show. If
(29:39):
we want to get to equal, we need to make
sure that advertising depicts women as they truly are, as leaders,
as contributors, powerful and three dimensional. And as Madonna reminds us,
we all have the ability to advance progress, each of
us in our own way. For Madonna, that meant using
her experience in advertising to change the way women are
portrayed no longer as objects, but it's actual human beings.
(30:03):
You can see Madonna's groundbreaking video at Women Not Objects
dot com and you can check out We See Equal
on YouTube. Now. This is the final episode in our
special six part series Getting to Equal, and I want
to thanks Caroline Taskdat and Deianna Bass for guest hosting
and for showing how we can all help to make
progress towards equality. You can listen to all six episodes
(30:25):
of Getting to Equal on Seneca's Conversations on power and purpose.
Have a great day. You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations
on power and purpose, brought to you by the Seneca
Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio with support from
founding partner. If you'd like to join the Seneca Women Network,
(30:48):
go to Seneca Women dot com. There you'll get access
to exclusive events and workshops, plus updates on new podcasts
and other opportunities to get involved. Four
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