November 10, 2022 • 40 mins
The first woman to win a Pulitzer Prize, Edith Wharton wrote novels like “The Age of Innocence” and “The House of Mirth” that remain popular today. We revisit this interview with Susan Wissler, executive director of Wharton’s estate, The Mount, to get fascinating insights into this multifaceted writer and designer of homes and gardens.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
She was a born storyteller. At the age of three
or four, um she would be observed holding a book
in her hands, off and upside down, and she would
walk back and forth and make up and create a
story that her mother arranged for a play date with
young friends. He would actually refuse them and insist that
her mother played with him so that she could she
(00:25):
could continue on making up. That was Susan Whistler talking
about young Edith Wharton, the first woman to win the
Pulitzer Prize for Literature. Wharton is the author of classics
like The Age of Innocence and The House of Mirth.
She created an unforgettable portrait of nineteenth century America and
(00:48):
women's role in it. I'm a land Ververe and this
is Seneca's one Women to Hear. We are bringing you
one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making
women you need to hear. Edith Wharton's books continue to
sell widely, even a hundred years after their publication, and
(01:11):
they've been the source for many movies starring everyone from
Betty Davis to Michelle Peiffer. But Wharton was more than
a novelist. She was also a forward looking designer, of
homes and gardens, and for her relief work during World
War One, she was a hero to the French people.
(01:33):
We got a fascinating insight into Wharton's life from Susan Whistler,
the executive director of the Mount, the beautiful estate Wharton
built in the Berkshire Mountains of Massachusetts. Listen and learn
from Susan Whistler why Edith Wharton is one of Seneca's
on women to hear. I'm speaking today to Susan Whistler,
(01:59):
the executive director of the Mount the Estate of Edith Wharton,
and we're going to be speaking about Edith Wharton and
her place in America's literary history and so much more. Susan,
it is a wonderful pleasure to have you with us today. Well, Malan,
thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Edith Wharton wrote
(02:20):
about the world of the wealthy during the Gilded Age
the late eighteen hundreds. She gave us memorable novels, including
The Age of Innocence in the House of Mirth. She
was the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize for
Literature for the Age of Innocence. She was also a
designer and a decorator, and her passion for houses and
(02:41):
gardens obviously comes out at the Mount when one visits.
What do you think she should be remembered for? How
do you see her legacy? You have an intimate engagement
with her almost every day as you're there at the Mount.
Well Edith Wharton, I would say, is and should probably
best known for her enduring classics of the House of
(03:03):
Mirth Ethan Frome, and also the Age of Innocence, which
is probably her best known work. It's the one that
one of the Pulitzer Prize when it was published in
nineteen twenty, and it hit number one on the bestseller
lists again in nine following Martin Scorsese's release of his
film starring Michelle Peifer and Daniel day Lewis, which is
based on the novel. But Um, I would say, even
(03:27):
though she's mostly known as a novelist, her literary legacy
is actually so much bigger. Um. She wrote across many genres,
including short stories to it, travel books, um, literary essays,
and poetry. And her first well known and sort of
I would say hit, was a book that was actually
about interior design, called The Decoration of Houses. It was
(03:49):
published in eight and it's still taught in design schools today. Um.
I think she also should be remembered for taking on
subject matter that I would say, even today might seem audacious.
She her books and her novels addressed issues ranging from
euthanasia to war, um to female sexual desire, especially that
(04:12):
of older women. And I would say that she and
her works, uh, defy any easy categorization, I would say.
And then of course there is um what I think
she considered her most important creation, or one of her
most important creations, and that is the estate that she
gotad and build from the Berkshires, the Mount Um. And
she was as proud of that as any of the
(04:35):
literary work which she produced. Just an exceptional legacy for sure.
Now you're the executive director of the Mount. Her long
time of state is you just mentioned in the Beautiful
Berkshires And you used to practice law in New York?
What got you interested in Edith warn and how did
you come to head the Mount? Well, I thank serendipity
(04:59):
for for my journey. Um. My last legal job was
actually with a firm here in the Berkshires, and um,
the partner that I was closest with Unfortunately, died of
cancer while I was there, and it was it was
a big moment in my life, and I took that
opportunity to step away from the law and decided i'd
(05:19):
really actually rather spend more time outdoors. And I spent
the next couple of years as a sort of itinerant tradesperson.
I was a carpenter, I did landscaping, I did painting, UM,
just sort of odd jobs here and there and UM.
But I was growing tired of the It was getting
a little tiring, and I certainly wasn't making a lot
(05:39):
of money. And a friend notified me that there was
an opening here at the Mount, involved with operations, and
I applied on the labor day and two I think
I applied on a Friday in two thousand one, in
September and started the following Monday. And I fell in
love with the property. And I have never look back.
(06:00):
And it's hard to believe that that was nearly twenty
years ago. It's an exceptional story serendipity, though it might
be in terms of how you got engaged. But I
think the Mount is very fortunate too to have such
an exceptional lawyer and committed leader of that beautiful place.
You mentioned at the outset some of Edith's great literary achievements,
(06:24):
And she wrote so many years ago, and yet her
books remained so popular today. What do you think that's
the case and and what does she tell us about
the wider culture in terms of her time and our time. Well,
when Wharton was at the peak of her career, women's
(06:45):
rights were arguably expanding. The divorce was becoming more common,
more women were entering the workforce and um, and then
of course the Nineteenth Amendment was ratified in nineteen nineteen.
And despite all of this scene progress, a major theme
in Wharton's work is how women's options remain constrictive. Marriage
(07:05):
was often unsatisfactory, and of course women continue to be
treated unequally. And I would say that there is one
thing that runs throughout her work that continues to resonate today.
And another big theme was I would say, the huge
divide between the enormously wealthy, the one percentags perhaps and
the working class. So I don't think it's hard to
(07:26):
draw parallels between her time and ours. And I think
the themes that she addresses in her works continue to
be themes that we as individuals and as a society
continue to struggle with. But I think perhaps the principal
reason she remains popular is because she's just a wonderful writer,
and she's got memorable characters, engaging plots, beautiful language, and
(07:49):
I would say a clean, even muscular writing style. And
so her work is as has stood the test of time,
and I think a century from now we will still
be talking about her. It's it's so interesting and those
two themes that you mentioned are certainly very much with
us today. Um she lived between eighteen sixty two and
(08:11):
nineteen thirty seven. What was happening then that had a
great deal to say about shaping her and what she
eventually would write about. Ah, that's a great question on um. Well,
Wharton was born into the old money New York society
uh or. By way of example, on the US Census,
(08:34):
her father listed his occupation as a gentleman of leisure.
So this was the world into which she was born.
Her family belonged to a class of people who loved
art but distrusted artists, and it was also a class
that felt themselves under siege, particularly by the new money class.
And because she was a bona fide member of this class,
(08:55):
she knew it. She understood it warts and all. She
knew it intimately, and it provided her with terrific material
for her writing. UM. She was also heavily influenced by
European culture as a child. Edith had spent much of
her life in Europe, mainly in France, Germany and Italy,
and it was there that she developed both her gifts
(09:15):
for languages, but also a deep appreciation for beauty. UH.
She loved art, architecture, and literature, and this is where
all of those passions were ignited. UM. I would also
say that she had an incredible intellectual curiosity and that
drove her to read just an extraordinary range of books,
(09:35):
not just literature, but she also was fascinated by science
and philosophy and religion, and her library here can Mount
actually includes multiple copies of books by Darwin, whose works
and theories were of course notly debated in the day. UM.
So those were some of the forces in terms of
events that shaped your life. I would say World War
(09:57):
One was perhaps the most influential. UM. From nineteen fourteen
to nineteen eighteen, she wasn't was in France, in Paris,
and she devoted herself to creating a complex, really extensive
network with charitable and humanitarian organizations that included work rooms
for the unemployed, convalescent homes for people with buerrtulosis. UM,
(10:21):
she created hospitals for refugees and schools for children and UM.
She also wrote extensively about the war. She was one
of a handful journalists that was actually allowed to h
report from the front lines. And her work was so
extensive that UM in nineteen sixteen she was actually awarded
the French lesion of loner UM. And I would say
(10:44):
mentioned one last thing that I would say was a
big force on her life. UM. During her lifetime there
were incredible social, economic, and needed technological changes. UM. So
she went from a horse and buggy era to air travel.
And I would say this progress affected her deeply and
(11:04):
can be seen in her writing. And by the time
she's in the nineteen twenties, she was actually quite dismayed
at what she saw as the commercialization of popular culture UM.
And she wrote about this in in her novels. So
in the Children, for example, she makes fun of Hollywood
in the movie industry. In Hudson Riverbracted, she she goes
(11:25):
after the publishing industry and and specifically The Pulitz Surprise.
And then in Twilight Sleep, which is one of her
last novels, she turns her pen Scuba modern medicine and
the wonder Pills that were on the rage of the day.
She was such an interesting and complicated personality, obviously, I
(11:45):
wonder listening to your description of her and what shaped her.
It sounds like she could have done any number of things.
Why did she become a writer? Oh? Um, Well, as
she was born a writer. I think she she had
no choice but to be. I'm a writer. She was
a born storyteller, So even before she could read. She
writes in her memoir that she would engage in an
(12:07):
exercise or an activity that she called making up. And
so you know, at the age of three or four,
um she would be observed holding a book in her
hands off an upside down and she would walk back
and forth and make up and create a story. Um
with her mother arranged for a play date with um
(12:29):
uh young friends, she would actually refuse them and insist
that her mother play with him so that she could
she could continue on making up. So the storytelling piece
came to her naturally, and I think she was driven
right um, which is not to say that it was easy. UM.
Her family I believe was a little bit in awe
(12:52):
of the sort of a natural and sort of driven
nature of Edith to too right, and they ordered her
as a young girl. In fact, UM Wharton's first book,
first published book, was the book of poems that she
wrote at the age of sixteen, and her mother actually
undertook the private publication of that. So I think they
(13:15):
were quite proud of her. But once she was a
woman of a certain age, where the expectations were that
she was to marry and settle down, UM, I would say,
the tables turned for her, and Um, at the age
of twenty one, she is engaged to a young man.
The engagement was broken for very complicated reasons, and the
(13:37):
newspapers actually report that the engagement was called off because
Wharton was quote an ambitious authoress and too intellectual, and
that was a huge humiliation for her. UM. And as
she even as she became you know, critically and a
critical and popular success, UM, she was often not taken
(14:00):
seriously as a writer. She was frequently dismissed as either
just a pale imitation of Henry James, who was a
good friend or as someone who's worked with trivial because
they weren't concerned with the rich. And this was despite
her having often written stories with working class protagonists. UM.
I would say at least a third of her works
deal with people who are not of the wealthy class.
(14:25):
Sounds like some of the criticisms that were lobbed against
her continue in varying ways today against women. That criticism
of being just too intellectual strikes me as one for sure. UM.
And I just love that image that you painted of
her as a child holding a book upside down, uh
(14:47):
and storytelling as as she's pacing around. So I think
you're so right. It does sound so much like she
was born to be a writer. Speaking of her work,
The Age of Innocence celebrated its hundredth anniversary last year.
What's the story behind that book? For listeners who are
(15:09):
not familiar with it, The Age of Innocence was written
in nineteen twenty, after World War One, and um after
the death of many of Warton's closest friends, including Henry
James and Teddy Roosevelt. UM. And it is set uh,
not in the twenties, but in the eighteen seventies and
(15:29):
it is I would say, both um homage too and
a critique of the society that you grew up in.
Um And it was a book that she didn't want
to write. Her previous book was a war, a war novel,
and it had the misfortune of coming out just as
the war was ending and the public was basically sick
of war stories and um And but she wanted to
(15:54):
write another one, and her publishers said, no, we need
another sort of House of Mirth, like uh, the novel
of matters. And so she needed money she by that
time and purchased a couple of houses in France and
um and so she actually penn The House of Mirth
in I think a little less than a year and um.
(16:16):
In many ways, I would say it is the most
autobiographical novel. And it involves three major characters. It's kind
of a love triangle story. There's a gentleman now and Archer,
and then there is the very mysterious and somewhat socially
disgraced because she's divorced, Countess Elena Lenska. And then there's
(16:37):
Maywell and the sort of perfect um product of New
York society woman who new and is expected to wed
and UM. Anyway, it's a it's it's basically a love
story and it but again it is in many ways autobiographical. UM.
(16:58):
And I'll just draw maybe attention to a couple of
the reasons why I say this. Um. Ellen Olenska is
probably the most obvious person based on Edith Wharton's character.
Ellen and Edith were both very comfortable and felt at
home in Europe Um, not just because they grew up there,
but also because they were both very sophisticated women. They
(17:20):
were equally at home with fashion and as well as
part um. Both Ellen Olenska and Edith Wharton had a
husband who seized their fortune and spent it on the
mistresses um. In the novel, one of the reasons the
Lenska has returned to New York is because her husband
um uh Is has embezzled her money and was also
(17:41):
neporiously unfaithful. That fits that description also fits edith husband
Peddy to a te um, he behaved very badly. He
embezzled about over fifty thou dollars of the money, which
would be about one and a half million dollars today,
and speculated poorly in the stock market, and also purchased
the house in Boston, the House of Mistress Um, and
(18:05):
both in the novel and Warton in real life, ultimately
they leave their husbands and live alone in Paris and
apartments where um the pastas that a believe, and they
both entertained a steay stream of Frenchise society. So there
are very many similarities between Wharton and eleanor Leinster. But
there are also similarities between Wharton and Newland Archer, and
(18:27):
Newland represents who Warton might have been had she remained
in New York and not escaped all of the bonds
and shackles of the expectations that her class put upon her.
Um the young Newland Archer and Edith are both undeniably similar.
They both are very much a part of society. They
(18:48):
attend the opera, they go to dinners and balls, they
participate in all the activities of old New York um Um.
And despite these useful represemblances, their adult lives take very
different has. By the end of the novel, knew in
this fifty seven and that's the same age Wharton was
when she was writing it. And this new one is
very different from from Wharton. The office Uh he is
(19:12):
no longer friends with writers. He no longer is dreaming
of making art and intellectual conversation central to his life. Uh. Instead,
just like everyone else in his social circle, he is
governed by convention in the following tradition, and in the
last pages of the novel, as he reflects back on
his life, he realizes that he is sunk deep into
(19:33):
a rut. And Wharton, on the other hand, avoided all
of these ruts because her insatiable curiosity never left her
and um and chief at the end of her life
is in Paris and in the South of France, where
artists and literature and clever conversation are just a steady
diet in their life. And this is probably more information
(19:56):
than you want, but I did want to spend a
little moment on May Uh the betrothed to Newland. And
May is the woman that high society included including Wharton's husband,
probably expected and wanted wanted Warton to be. And while
for many years he was able to pull off the
dual role dual role of dutiful wife and vestselling author,
(20:18):
eventually it became too much for her and she abandons
her wifely duties and leaves Teddy and ultimately divorces him.
So The Age of Innocence, I think, is a novel
that can be read many times, and each time you
read it you'll get something different. And one of the
I think most brilliant aspects of the novel is that
it is written from the perspective of the male Newland archer.
(20:42):
And as you read the novel, perhaps the first time
you read it you don't realize it, but certainly on
the second and third reading, you realize that he is
a completely unreliable narrator and um and you can't at
one he he he is misinterpreting signs and clues that
that come before him as the platform folds, and in
(21:03):
many ways is completely clueless. And the women in the
story who are portrayed on the first breath is perhaps
lesser characters are actually the brilliant ones. Well, speaking of brilliant, Susan,
I feel like you're brilliant, professor of literature with that
extraordinary answer, and it is enough, I think uh listeners
(21:25):
will agree to have us all go out and pick
up The Age of Innocence and read it, either for
the first time or for the second or third time.
As you pointed out Seneca has one hundred women to hear.
Will be back after the short break. Let's talk about
(21:52):
the mount a little bit, where you spend so much
of your time. Warton designed and built it in nineteen
o two for people who haven't been there, and I
have recently been there for the second time, and it
is just a beautiful and remarkable place. Tell us how
she made it happen, how it reflects who she is, because,
(22:16):
just speaking for myself, when you walk through that front door,
you walk into a world onto itself in terms of
its beauty and everything it represents about her. She came
to the Virture's Um. This is probably one good thing
that her husband Teddy did, is Teddy's family actually summered
in the Berkshire's and that is how she came to
(22:38):
to know to know the Virture's Um. Wharton's family watering
their their their summer place was in Newport. And while
Wharton loved Newport as a child when she was free
to play tennis or swim, or sale or ride, once
she was a young married woman, uh the again, the
expectations of entertainment either being entertained or to entertained proved
(23:03):
too great for her and UM, and she was all
of her time that she had hoped to devote to
writing was taken up with societal duties. And so in
nineteen o one she and Teddy decide to leave Newport
and Wharton comes to the Berkshire's Uh they find a
beautiful one acre property which had been previously farmland, and
(23:28):
they purchase it. We've got a wonderful photograph, the historic
photograph of Petty and Edith, and they were both huge
dog lovers, and they're like three little dogs and they're
all standing on this rocky mound pointing as if this
is they're they're they're telling the person who's taking the photograph,
this is the place, this is what where we are
going to build our home and UM. Wharton had a
(23:50):
huge interest in both architecture and landscape design, and so
she was involved heavily in every aspect of the construction
of the State and Um. She intended that it would
be a home that would meet all of her needs,
both as a designer, as a gardener, as a hostess,
and most importantly as a writer. So one of the
(24:12):
most distinguishing features of the mount there are there are
a few. One is that it is built far far
away from the roads. It's not even visible from any
of the main highways or arteries. And that's because she
really wanted it to be a retreat. It was not
built to be a symbol of her wealth, though at
that point she was a very successful writer and her
(24:32):
wealth was considerable. It was meant to be a place
where she could retire from society, should she choose. It
was also it's also a very it's a very beautiful
and elegant house, but in terms of the number of
people that it will accommodate, it's actually quite small. The
dining room is designed to seat six, and there are
(24:53):
only two guest bedrooms. And so it was again it's
primary purpose was to entertain at most your most intimate friends,
and then also to give her a place where she
could create. Um. She was very proud of the mount Um.
She there's a nineteen o five nineteen o six letter
(25:13):
that she writes to her lover Morton Fullerton, where she
actually says, and I know this line my heart, but
quote decidedly, I'm a better landscape gardener than novelist. And
this place, every line of which is my own work.
Far surpasses the House of Mirth. And just to put
that in context, the House of Mirth was the runaway
(25:36):
bestseller of nineteen o five. It was published I think
in October, and in the remaining months of the year
it out sold by enormous amounts every other novel that
had been published that that in that in that year.
So um. The Wharton's unfortunately only lived at the Mount
for ten years, but it was a transformational decade for
(26:00):
for Edith. Um. She had many professional triumphs and much
emotional turmoil. Um Uh. It was during her period of
the Amount that Um Teddy's mental instability really began to
take hold. I think um it was probably not easy
for Teddy to be Edith Wharton's husband. He was not
(26:21):
her intellectual peer and um and he had really not
a lot to bring to the table. And as she
grew more and more financially successful and independent, I think
he um, he began to resent it and uh, and
that resentment began to manifests itself in ways that we're
(26:42):
not not healthy or good for either either of them. Well,
she clearly thought seriously, and that description that you you posed,
that comparative with the House of mirth to her own house.
She cared about interior design, clearly, she cared about gardens,
she cared about decorations. She wrote about it. How would
(27:03):
you describe her design philosophy if she had one. Oh,
she certainly had a design philosophy. And Um, what she
was advocating for, and it is the basic premise of
her book, The decoration of Houses is a return to
what she termed as the classical style that you would
find in Europe, characterized by symmetry, balance and proportion. Those
(27:27):
were the three the three main tenets of any good design.
And um, you had to pay close attention to how
houses and gardens were to be used. Um. She grew
up in the Victorian era. Uh. And then the I
would say that Victorian era was characterized by houses that
were over upholstered, over draper, read full of bric a
(27:49):
brac and um. And they also gave rise to what
we're sort of very ostentatious properties of the newly rich
who built their houses to basically show and flaunt their wealth. Um.
And they the big houses of the guild of there
of the Berkshire cottages, I would say many of them,
(28:10):
uh put a greater value in how showy they were
versus how functional they were. And for Wharton, UM, she
was always very cumily attuned to the fact that houses
are in fact, first and foremost meant to be lived in. UM.
She also felt that the house, the gardens, and the
landscape should all be in harmony, and that the transition
(28:33):
between one and the other should be gradual. But the
harmonious component was not unlike a great work of art,
and that is how she viewed house and landscape design.
Beautifully said, Now, you've had a major impact on the
mountain in many ways, but one was certainly to retire
its debt, which was no small feat UM in two
(28:56):
thousand and fifteen. That was really extraordinary. UM. And you
have managed to get some of Wharton's books returned to
the library where they have their special place. Now tell
us about that and why those books are so important. Oh,
another wonderful question, long, Thank you, UM. The books. Yes,
we have all that what we believed to be UM,
(29:19):
perhaps not all, but the majority of what remains of
Wharton's own original library. It's about volumes. UM. We know
that her her full library was actually far more extensive
than that. UM. She bequeathed it to Godsons. Half of
it ended up being destroyed in the war as it
was waiting on the docks of London to be shipped
(29:41):
to America for safety. But the other half um was
bequeathed to the son of Sir Kenneth Clark, the great historian,
and they sort of languished and were protected throughout the
war in Saltwood Castle, which was out in the English countryside.
And and thanks they ended up in the hands of
(30:01):
a bookseller who became so fascinated with Edith Wharton that
he spent probably thirty years of his life trying to
continue to collect what I would call the orphans and
the the strays that had been perhaps loaned by the
Clarks out to other people. And he tried. He was
very keen on making sure that the collection remained together
(30:22):
as a whole. And the reason why he was so
keen on that is because Wharton was a very active reader,
and she she annotated her books, She wrote notes in
the fly leaves, she underscored, she used exclamations. When you
look at all of these markings, it's like you are
reading the book with her alongside her, and it just
(30:44):
tells you so much. UM. She also the books. Many
of the books are gifts from some of her closest friends, UH,
for example Teddy Roosevelt and Henry James, and their infamite
inscriptions as they gifted books to her UH tells us
a lot of insights into the nature of their relationship.
(31:05):
For example, how much humor UH there was in the
kind of repartee that Wharton had, particularly with Henry James,
but also also with Teddy Roosevelt. UM and uh. And
so we really consider the books as um as the
heart and soul of the property. And they also attest
(31:26):
to the incredible breadth of Wharton's curiosity. UM. In addition
to literature, gardening, travel, UM, there are numerous volumes on history, philosophy, religion,
and science UM and it and the breadth of the books,
I mean, we have books that she was given as
a child, that were given to her by her brothers
(31:48):
um uh you know, for Christmas. And then we also
have the books that she was reading, you know, within
months of her death. And we know that because the
publication date of the book was, you know, just two
months prior to her prior to her dying. And UM,
so it's been just an incredible tool in in deepening
our understanding of what um I would say, her personality
(32:09):
practically springs from the pages and uh and so it's
just a wealth of information for the next generation of
scholars and and storytellers. And we actually are regularly welcoming
scholars who come to peer through the pages to see
what what little timbits of information they might be able
to bleam. It's really a very very special part of
(32:31):
the house. To see those annotated books and to read
the inscriptions, you do feel like you're learning something that
nobody else knows. It's really an insight into her. So
congratulations on being able to get those books returned so
that they could be at the mount today. We are
(32:52):
closely running out of time, and I wanted to just
ask about one of the aspects of her life that's
really less well known. You alluded several times to her
years in France. She lived there before World War One,
she worked with the Red Cross during the war. She
was even awarded the French Legion of Honor. Um what
(33:15):
was it about her devotion to France and what it
meant to her? Well, Um, I think the love of
France probably was seated deeply in Edith when she was
a child. So from the age of four to ten,
the Whartons spent most of their time traveling around Europe. Uh.
And she spent a great deal of time living in
(33:37):
France as well as Germany and Italy. And she was
fluent in French, and she was deeply engrossed in and
I would say influenced by French literature. So her library
includes all the French greats from the balls Act of
Voltaire um and so huge impact there. UM. But I
(34:00):
think it actually was probably um World War One that
really cemented her love for France and the French people.
When the war breaks out, she's actually in England looking
at a property to possibly purchase, and um, there's some
just really beautiful letters that talks about the anguish that
(34:22):
she feels because she's unable to return because the borders
have closed and uh. And it takes her several weeks
or maybe even several months before she's actually admitted back
into the country, and she's just absolutely horrified by the
by the carnage and the and the devastation and um.
(34:43):
And then of course nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen, she
throws herself into humanitarian work on the part of France
and the French, and I think UM, I think that's
where her her love and her loyalties shifted. And I
also think she never was that comfortable in the United States.
She she hated Um, she hated New York, she thought
(35:05):
it was deplorably. She did not feel accepted in Boston,
where she was being too fashionable. And she just loved
the layout and the architecture and the sensibilities of the
European cities, at particularly Paris. And so I think that's
why UM. And then of course towards the I would say,
in the latter third of her life after the war,
(35:26):
Um she is continuing to write prolifically, but I would
say her first passion at that point becomes gardening. And
she purchases this amazing ancient wreck of the chateau on
the Riviera, and Um purchases an entire hillside that goes
with it, and then throws herself into into gardening, and
(35:48):
is um credited in part with actually creating the Mediterranean garden.
The English were starting to settle on the south of France.
The French had no particular or interested in gardens, but
the English had a passion for it, and so she
developed a small group of very close friends and they
took the Mediterranean Garden to tell They really put it
(36:11):
on the map as a as a as a as
a genre of gardening. UM. So that that that also,
I think was important. And I believe she felt that
France um where women and men engaged in society and
conversation together. Uh, that France had more respect for women
and educated them actually better than America did. And so
(36:33):
I think she felt in some ways that the French
were in were superior to to the Americans in terms
of how they organized and structured their lives. Well, I
regret that we can't keep talking about Edith for hours more,
because she is both a fascinating figure and you are
wonderfully descriptive in giving us insights into who she was
(36:58):
and what she did. Before we let you go, Susan,
how can listeners visit them out? Um? Do you have
ongoing events and programs? And if you do, how can
we learn about them? There are numerous ways you can
experience the site. You can take a guided tour with
a person, you can take a self guided tour, or
you can um or you can take an audio tour UM.
(37:22):
We have a beautiful cafe on our terrace which you
can enjoy sort of good food and incredible views. And
then we also have just UM an ongoing roster of
programs UH that include a sculpture exhibit across about fifty
acres thirty large scaled contemporary pieces. We have concerts regularly. UM.
(37:47):
We often have theatrical performances. But again, the best way
to UM to figure out and plan your trip is
to visit our website and to sign up for our
e newsletter, and you could also follow us on social media.
We have a hashtag at the Mount Lennox. Well, thank
you so much, Susan Whistler for this just wonderful conversation,
(38:08):
your great ability to enable us to come to know
and be much smarter about that great literary giant Edith Wharton.
And thank you too for what you've been doing over
the last many years to make the Mount come alive
and be that very special place that it is. It's
so great to have had you with us today. Thank you, Milan,
(38:31):
Thank you. This has been lots of fun and I
hope I haven't talked too much now it's been terrific.
Thank you so much. I learned so much about Edith
Wharton and talking to the remarkable Susan Whistler. Here are
three things I took from that conversation. First, Edith Wharton
(38:52):
remains popular today, more than a hundred years after publication
of her most famous novels and No Wonder. She writes
about women trying to find their way in a culture
that wants to constrain them, and about the expectations are
friends and family place on all of us. Her novels
(39:13):
are compelling and timeless. Second, it's also worth looking at
the other side of Edith Wharton, the house and garden designer.
Check out a copy of her eight seven design Manual,
The Decoration of Houses, for guidelines that never go out
of style. Finally, if you're on the East Coast, try
(39:38):
to visit The Mount, the magnificent estate that Edith Wharton
built in Lenox, Massachusetts. Besides touring the house and grounds,
you can enjoy nature walks, lectures, sculpture, exhibits, music, and
even lunch on the beautiful Terrorists. To learn more, visit
(40:00):
Edith Wharton dot org. Tune in next time to hear
about our next featured woman and discover why she's one
of Seneca's one Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women
to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast
Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner
(40:21):
PNG Have a Great Day.
She was a born storyteller. At the age of three
or four, um she would be observed holding a book
in her hands, off and upside down, and she would
walk back and forth and make up and create a
story that her mother arranged for a play date with
young friends. He would actually refuse them and insist that
her mother played with him so that she could she
(00:25):
could continue on making up. That was Susan Whistler talking
about young Edith Wharton, the first woman to win the
Pulitzer Prize for Literature. Wharton is the author of classics
like The Age of Innocence and The House of Mirth.
She created an unforgettable portrait of nineteenth century America and
(00:48):
women's role in it. I'm a land Ververe and this
is Seneca's one Women to Hear. We are bringing you
one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making
women you need to hear. Edith Wharton's books continue to
sell widely, even a hundred years after their publication, and
(01:11):
they've been the source for many movies starring everyone from
Betty Davis to Michelle Peiffer. But Wharton was more than
a novelist. She was also a forward looking designer, of
homes and gardens, and for her relief work during World
War One, she was a hero to the French people.
(01:33):
We got a fascinating insight into Wharton's life from Susan Whistler,
the executive director of the Mount, the beautiful estate Wharton
built in the Berkshire Mountains of Massachusetts. Listen and learn
from Susan Whistler why Edith Wharton is one of Seneca's
on women to hear. I'm speaking today to Susan Whistler,
(01:59):
the executive director of the Mount the Estate of Edith Wharton,
and we're going to be speaking about Edith Wharton and
her place in America's literary history and so much more. Susan,
it is a wonderful pleasure to have you with us today. Well, Malan,
thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Edith Wharton wrote
(02:20):
about the world of the wealthy during the Gilded Age
the late eighteen hundreds. She gave us memorable novels, including
The Age of Innocence in the House of Mirth. She
was the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize for
Literature for the Age of Innocence. She was also a
designer and a decorator, and her passion for houses and
(02:41):
gardens obviously comes out at the Mount when one visits.
What do you think she should be remembered for? How
do you see her legacy? You have an intimate engagement
with her almost every day as you're there at the Mount.
Well Edith Wharton, I would say, is and should probably
best known for her enduring classics of the House of
(03:03):
Mirth Ethan Frome, and also the Age of Innocence, which
is probably her best known work. It's the one that
one of the Pulitzer Prize when it was published in
nineteen twenty, and it hit number one on the bestseller
lists again in nine following Martin Scorsese's release of his
film starring Michelle Peifer and Daniel day Lewis, which is
based on the novel. But Um, I would say, even
(03:27):
though she's mostly known as a novelist, her literary legacy
is actually so much bigger. Um. She wrote across many genres,
including short stories to it, travel books, um, literary essays,
and poetry. And her first well known and sort of
I would say hit, was a book that was actually
about interior design, called The Decoration of Houses. It was
(03:49):
published in eight and it's still taught in design schools today. Um.
I think she also should be remembered for taking on
subject matter that I would say, even today might seem audacious.
She her books and her novels addressed issues ranging from
euthanasia to war, um to female sexual desire, especially that
(04:12):
of older women. And I would say that she and
her works, uh, defy any easy categorization, I would say.
And then of course there is um what I think
she considered her most important creation, or one of her
most important creations, and that is the estate that she
gotad and build from the Berkshires, the Mount Um. And
she was as proud of that as any of the
(04:35):
literary work which she produced. Just an exceptional legacy for sure.
Now you're the executive director of the Mount. Her long
time of state is you just mentioned in the Beautiful
Berkshires And you used to practice law in New York?
What got you interested in Edith warn and how did
you come to head the Mount? Well, I thank serendipity
(04:59):
for for my journey. Um. My last legal job was
actually with a firm here in the Berkshires, and um,
the partner that I was closest with Unfortunately, died of
cancer while I was there, and it was it was
a big moment in my life, and I took that
opportunity to step away from the law and decided i'd
(05:19):
really actually rather spend more time outdoors. And I spent
the next couple of years as a sort of itinerant tradesperson.
I was a carpenter, I did landscaping, I did painting, UM,
just sort of odd jobs here and there and UM.
But I was growing tired of the It was getting
a little tiring, and I certainly wasn't making a lot
(05:39):
of money. And a friend notified me that there was
an opening here at the Mount, involved with operations, and
I applied on the labor day and two I think
I applied on a Friday in two thousand one, in
September and started the following Monday. And I fell in
love with the property. And I have never look back.
(06:00):
And it's hard to believe that that was nearly twenty
years ago. It's an exceptional story serendipity, though it might
be in terms of how you got engaged. But I
think the Mount is very fortunate too to have such
an exceptional lawyer and committed leader of that beautiful place.
You mentioned at the outset some of Edith's great literary achievements,
(06:24):
And she wrote so many years ago, and yet her
books remained so popular today. What do you think that's
the case and and what does she tell us about
the wider culture in terms of her time and our time. Well,
when Wharton was at the peak of her career, women's
(06:45):
rights were arguably expanding. The divorce was becoming more common,
more women were entering the workforce and um, and then
of course the Nineteenth Amendment was ratified in nineteen nineteen.
And despite all of this scene progress, a major theme
in Wharton's work is how women's options remain constrictive. Marriage
(07:05):
was often unsatisfactory, and of course women continue to be
treated unequally. And I would say that there is one
thing that runs throughout her work that continues to resonate today.
And another big theme was I would say, the huge
divide between the enormously wealthy, the one percentags perhaps and
the working class. So I don't think it's hard to
(07:26):
draw parallels between her time and ours. And I think
the themes that she addresses in her works continue to
be themes that we as individuals and as a society
continue to struggle with. But I think perhaps the principal
reason she remains popular is because she's just a wonderful writer,
and she's got memorable characters, engaging plots, beautiful language, and
(07:49):
I would say a clean, even muscular writing style. And
so her work is as has stood the test of time,
and I think a century from now we will still
be talking about her. It's it's so interesting and those
two themes that you mentioned are certainly very much with
us today. Um she lived between eighteen sixty two and
(08:11):
nineteen thirty seven. What was happening then that had a
great deal to say about shaping her and what she
eventually would write about. Ah, that's a great question on um. Well,
Wharton was born into the old money New York society
uh or. By way of example, on the US Census,
(08:34):
her father listed his occupation as a gentleman of leisure.
So this was the world into which she was born.
Her family belonged to a class of people who loved
art but distrusted artists, and it was also a class
that felt themselves under siege, particularly by the new money class.
And because she was a bona fide member of this class,
(08:55):
she knew it. She understood it warts and all. She
knew it intimately, and it provided her with terrific material
for her writing. UM. She was also heavily influenced by
European culture as a child. Edith had spent much of
her life in Europe, mainly in France, Germany and Italy,
and it was there that she developed both her gifts
(09:15):
for languages, but also a deep appreciation for beauty. UH.
She loved art, architecture, and literature, and this is where
all of those passions were ignited. UM. I would also
say that she had an incredible intellectual curiosity and that
drove her to read just an extraordinary range of books,
(09:35):
not just literature, but she also was fascinated by science
and philosophy and religion, and her library here can Mount
actually includes multiple copies of books by Darwin, whose works
and theories were of course notly debated in the day. UM.
So those were some of the forces in terms of
events that shaped your life. I would say World War
(09:57):
One was perhaps the most influential. UM. From nineteen fourteen
to nineteen eighteen, she wasn't was in France, in Paris,
and she devoted herself to creating a complex, really extensive
network with charitable and humanitarian organizations that included work rooms
for the unemployed, convalescent homes for people with buerrtulosis. UM,
(10:21):
she created hospitals for refugees and schools for children and UM.
She also wrote extensively about the war. She was one
of a handful journalists that was actually allowed to h
report from the front lines. And her work was so
extensive that UM in nineteen sixteen she was actually awarded
the French lesion of loner UM. And I would say
(10:44):
mentioned one last thing that I would say was a
big force on her life. UM. During her lifetime there
were incredible social, economic, and needed technological changes. UM. So
she went from a horse and buggy era to air travel.
And I would say this progress affected her deeply and
(11:04):
can be seen in her writing. And by the time
she's in the nineteen twenties, she was actually quite dismayed
at what she saw as the commercialization of popular culture UM.
And she wrote about this in in her novels. So
in the Children, for example, she makes fun of Hollywood
in the movie industry. In Hudson Riverbracted, she she goes
(11:25):
after the publishing industry and and specifically The Pulitz Surprise.
And then in Twilight Sleep, which is one of her
last novels, she turns her pen Scuba modern medicine and
the wonder Pills that were on the rage of the day.
She was such an interesting and complicated personality, obviously, I
(11:45):
wonder listening to your description of her and what shaped her.
It sounds like she could have done any number of things.
Why did she become a writer? Oh? Um, Well, as
she was born a writer. I think she she had
no choice but to be. I'm a writer. She was
a born storyteller, So even before she could read. She
writes in her memoir that she would engage in an
(12:07):
exercise or an activity that she called making up. And
so you know, at the age of three or four,
um she would be observed holding a book in her
hands off an upside down and she would walk back
and forth and make up and create a story. Um
with her mother arranged for a play date with um
(12:29):
uh young friends, she would actually refuse them and insist
that her mother play with him so that she could
she could continue on making up. So the storytelling piece
came to her naturally, and I think she was driven
right um, which is not to say that it was easy. UM.
Her family I believe was a little bit in awe
(12:52):
of the sort of a natural and sort of driven
nature of Edith to too right, and they ordered her
as a young girl. In fact, UM Wharton's first book,
first published book, was the book of poems that she
wrote at the age of sixteen, and her mother actually
undertook the private publication of that. So I think they
(13:15):
were quite proud of her. But once she was a
woman of a certain age, where the expectations were that
she was to marry and settle down, UM, I would say,
the tables turned for her, and Um, at the age
of twenty one, she is engaged to a young man.
The engagement was broken for very complicated reasons, and the
(13:37):
newspapers actually report that the engagement was called off because
Wharton was quote an ambitious authoress and too intellectual, and
that was a huge humiliation for her. UM. And as
she even as she became you know, critically and a
critical and popular success, UM, she was often not taken
(14:00):
seriously as a writer. She was frequently dismissed as either
just a pale imitation of Henry James, who was a
good friend or as someone who's worked with trivial because
they weren't concerned with the rich. And this was despite
her having often written stories with working class protagonists. UM.
I would say at least a third of her works
deal with people who are not of the wealthy class.
(14:25):
Sounds like some of the criticisms that were lobbed against
her continue in varying ways today against women. That criticism
of being just too intellectual strikes me as one for sure. UM.
And I just love that image that you painted of
her as a child holding a book upside down, uh
(14:47):
and storytelling as as she's pacing around. So I think
you're so right. It does sound so much like she
was born to be a writer. Speaking of her work,
The Age of Innocence celebrated its hundredth anniversary last year.
What's the story behind that book? For listeners who are
(15:09):
not familiar with it, The Age of Innocence was written
in nineteen twenty, after World War One, and um after
the death of many of Warton's closest friends, including Henry
James and Teddy Roosevelt. UM. And it is set uh,
not in the twenties, but in the eighteen seventies and
(15:29):
it is I would say, both um homage too and
a critique of the society that you grew up in.
Um And it was a book that she didn't want
to write. Her previous book was a war, a war novel,
and it had the misfortune of coming out just as
the war was ending and the public was basically sick
of war stories and um And but she wanted to
(15:54):
write another one, and her publishers said, no, we need
another sort of House of Mirth, like uh, the novel
of matters. And so she needed money she by that
time and purchased a couple of houses in France and
um and so she actually penn The House of Mirth
in I think a little less than a year and um.
(16:16):
In many ways, I would say it is the most
autobiographical novel. And it involves three major characters. It's kind
of a love triangle story. There's a gentleman now and Archer,
and then there is the very mysterious and somewhat socially
disgraced because she's divorced, Countess Elena Lenska. And then there's
(16:37):
Maywell and the sort of perfect um product of New
York society woman who new and is expected to wed
and UM. Anyway, it's a it's it's basically a love
story and it but again it is in many ways autobiographical. UM.
(16:58):
And I'll just draw maybe attention to a couple of
the reasons why I say this. Um. Ellen Olenska is
probably the most obvious person based on Edith Wharton's character.
Ellen and Edith were both very comfortable and felt at
home in Europe Um, not just because they grew up there,
but also because they were both very sophisticated women. They
(17:20):
were equally at home with fashion and as well as
part um. Both Ellen Olenska and Edith Wharton had a
husband who seized their fortune and spent it on the
mistresses um. In the novel, one of the reasons the
Lenska has returned to New York is because her husband
um uh Is has embezzled her money and was also
(17:41):
neporiously unfaithful. That fits that description also fits edith husband
Peddy to a te um, he behaved very badly. He
embezzled about over fifty thou dollars of the money, which
would be about one and a half million dollars today,
and speculated poorly in the stock market, and also purchased
the house in Boston, the House of Mistress Um, and
(18:05):
both in the novel and Warton in real life, ultimately
they leave their husbands and live alone in Paris and
apartments where um the pastas that a believe, and they
both entertained a steay stream of Frenchise society. So there
are very many similarities between Wharton and eleanor Leinster. But
there are also similarities between Wharton and Newland Archer, and
(18:27):
Newland represents who Warton might have been had she remained
in New York and not escaped all of the bonds
and shackles of the expectations that her class put upon her.
Um the young Newland Archer and Edith are both undeniably similar.
They both are very much a part of society. They
(18:48):
attend the opera, they go to dinners and balls, they
participate in all the activities of old New York um Um.
And despite these useful represemblances, their adult lives take very
different has. By the end of the novel, knew in
this fifty seven and that's the same age Wharton was
when she was writing it. And this new one is
very different from from Wharton. The office Uh he is
(19:12):
no longer friends with writers. He no longer is dreaming
of making art and intellectual conversation central to his life. Uh. Instead,
just like everyone else in his social circle, he is
governed by convention in the following tradition, and in the
last pages of the novel, as he reflects back on
his life, he realizes that he is sunk deep into
(19:33):
a rut. And Wharton, on the other hand, avoided all
of these ruts because her insatiable curiosity never left her
and um and chief at the end of her life
is in Paris and in the South of France, where
artists and literature and clever conversation are just a steady
diet in their life. And this is probably more information
(19:56):
than you want, but I did want to spend a
little moment on May Uh the betrothed to Newland. And
May is the woman that high society included including Wharton's husband,
probably expected and wanted wanted Warton to be. And while
for many years he was able to pull off the
dual role dual role of dutiful wife and vestselling author,
(20:18):
eventually it became too much for her and she abandons
her wifely duties and leaves Teddy and ultimately divorces him.
So The Age of Innocence, I think, is a novel
that can be read many times, and each time you
read it you'll get something different. And one of the
I think most brilliant aspects of the novel is that
it is written from the perspective of the male Newland archer.
(20:42):
And as you read the novel, perhaps the first time
you read it you don't realize it, but certainly on
the second and third reading, you realize that he is
a completely unreliable narrator and um and you can't at
one he he he is misinterpreting signs and clues that
that come before him as the platform folds, and in
(21:03):
many ways is completely clueless. And the women in the
story who are portrayed on the first breath is perhaps
lesser characters are actually the brilliant ones. Well, speaking of brilliant, Susan,
I feel like you're brilliant, professor of literature with that
extraordinary answer, and it is enough, I think uh listeners
(21:25):
will agree to have us all go out and pick
up The Age of Innocence and read it, either for
the first time or for the second or third time.
As you pointed out Seneca has one hundred women to hear.
Will be back after the short break. Let's talk about
(21:52):
the mount a little bit, where you spend so much
of your time. Warton designed and built it in nineteen
o two for people who haven't been there, and I
have recently been there for the second time, and it
is just a beautiful and remarkable place. Tell us how
she made it happen, how it reflects who she is, because,
(22:16):
just speaking for myself, when you walk through that front door,
you walk into a world onto itself in terms of
its beauty and everything it represents about her. She came
to the Virture's Um. This is probably one good thing
that her husband Teddy did, is Teddy's family actually summered
in the Berkshire's and that is how she came to
(22:38):
to know to know the Virture's Um. Wharton's family watering
their their their summer place was in Newport. And while
Wharton loved Newport as a child when she was free
to play tennis or swim, or sale or ride, once
she was a young married woman, uh the again, the
expectations of entertainment either being entertained or to entertained proved
(23:03):
too great for her and UM, and she was all
of her time that she had hoped to devote to
writing was taken up with societal duties. And so in
nineteen o one she and Teddy decide to leave Newport
and Wharton comes to the Berkshire's Uh they find a
beautiful one acre property which had been previously farmland, and
(23:28):
they purchase it. We've got a wonderful photograph, the historic
photograph of Petty and Edith, and they were both huge
dog lovers, and they're like three little dogs and they're
all standing on this rocky mound pointing as if this
is they're they're they're telling the person who's taking the photograph,
this is the place, this is what where we are
going to build our home and UM. Wharton had a
(23:50):
huge interest in both architecture and landscape design, and so
she was involved heavily in every aspect of the construction
of the State and Um. She intended that it would
be a home that would meet all of her needs,
both as a designer, as a gardener, as a hostess,
and most importantly as a writer. So one of the
(24:12):
most distinguishing features of the mount there are there are
a few. One is that it is built far far
away from the roads. It's not even visible from any
of the main highways or arteries. And that's because she
really wanted it to be a retreat. It was not
built to be a symbol of her wealth, though at
that point she was a very successful writer and her
(24:32):
wealth was considerable. It was meant to be a place
where she could retire from society, should she choose. It
was also it's also a very it's a very beautiful
and elegant house, but in terms of the number of
people that it will accommodate, it's actually quite small. The
dining room is designed to seat six, and there are
(24:53):
only two guest bedrooms. And so it was again it's
primary purpose was to entertain at most your most intimate friends,
and then also to give her a place where she
could create. Um. She was very proud of the mount Um.
She there's a nineteen o five nineteen o six letter
(25:13):
that she writes to her lover Morton Fullerton, where she
actually says, and I know this line my heart, but
quote decidedly, I'm a better landscape gardener than novelist. And
this place, every line of which is my own work.
Far surpasses the House of Mirth. And just to put
that in context, the House of Mirth was the runaway
(25:36):
bestseller of nineteen o five. It was published I think
in October, and in the remaining months of the year
it out sold by enormous amounts every other novel that
had been published that that in that in that year.
So um. The Wharton's unfortunately only lived at the Mount
for ten years, but it was a transformational decade for
(26:00):
for Edith. Um. She had many professional triumphs and much
emotional turmoil. Um Uh. It was during her period of
the Amount that Um Teddy's mental instability really began to
take hold. I think um it was probably not easy
for Teddy to be Edith Wharton's husband. He was not
(26:21):
her intellectual peer and um and he had really not
a lot to bring to the table. And as she
grew more and more financially successful and independent, I think
he um, he began to resent it and uh, and
that resentment began to manifests itself in ways that we're
(26:42):
not not healthy or good for either either of them. Well,
she clearly thought seriously, and that description that you you posed,
that comparative with the House of mirth to her own house.
She cared about interior design, clearly, she cared about gardens,
she cared about decorations. She wrote about it. How would
(27:03):
you describe her design philosophy if she had one. Oh,
she certainly had a design philosophy. And Um, what she
was advocating for, and it is the basic premise of
her book, The decoration of Houses is a return to
what she termed as the classical style that you would
find in Europe, characterized by symmetry, balance and proportion. Those
(27:27):
were the three the three main tenets of any good design.
And um, you had to pay close attention to how
houses and gardens were to be used. Um. She grew
up in the Victorian era. Uh. And then the I
would say that Victorian era was characterized by houses that
were over upholstered, over draper, read full of bric a
(27:49):
brac and um. And they also gave rise to what
we're sort of very ostentatious properties of the newly rich
who built their houses to basically show and flaunt their wealth. Um.
And they the big houses of the guild of there
of the Berkshire cottages, I would say many of them,
(28:10):
uh put a greater value in how showy they were
versus how functional they were. And for Wharton, UM, she
was always very cumily attuned to the fact that houses
are in fact, first and foremost meant to be lived in. UM.
She also felt that the house, the gardens, and the
landscape should all be in harmony, and that the transition
(28:33):
between one and the other should be gradual. But the
harmonious component was not unlike a great work of art,
and that is how she viewed house and landscape design.
Beautifully said, Now, you've had a major impact on the
mountain in many ways, but one was certainly to retire
its debt, which was no small feat UM in two
(28:56):
thousand and fifteen. That was really extraordinary. UM. And you
have managed to get some of Wharton's books returned to
the library where they have their special place. Now tell
us about that and why those books are so important. Oh,
another wonderful question, long, Thank you, UM. The books. Yes,
we have all that what we believed to be UM,
(29:19):
perhaps not all, but the majority of what remains of
Wharton's own original library. It's about volumes. UM. We know
that her her full library was actually far more extensive
than that. UM. She bequeathed it to Godsons. Half of
it ended up being destroyed in the war as it
was waiting on the docks of London to be shipped
(29:41):
to America for safety. But the other half um was
bequeathed to the son of Sir Kenneth Clark, the great historian,
and they sort of languished and were protected throughout the
war in Saltwood Castle, which was out in the English countryside.
And and thanks they ended up in the hands of
(30:01):
a bookseller who became so fascinated with Edith Wharton that
he spent probably thirty years of his life trying to
continue to collect what I would call the orphans and
the the strays that had been perhaps loaned by the
Clarks out to other people. And he tried. He was
very keen on making sure that the collection remained together
(30:22):
as a whole. And the reason why he was so
keen on that is because Wharton was a very active reader,
and she she annotated her books, She wrote notes in
the fly leaves, she underscored, she used exclamations. When you
look at all of these markings, it's like you are
reading the book with her alongside her, and it just
(30:44):
tells you so much. UM. She also the books. Many
of the books are gifts from some of her closest friends, UH,
for example Teddy Roosevelt and Henry James, and their infamite
inscriptions as they gifted books to her UH tells us
a lot of insights into the nature of their relationship.
(31:05):
For example, how much humor UH there was in the
kind of repartee that Wharton had, particularly with Henry James,
but also also with Teddy Roosevelt. UM and uh. And
so we really consider the books as um as the
heart and soul of the property. And they also attest
(31:26):
to the incredible breadth of Wharton's curiosity. UM. In addition
to literature, gardening, travel, UM, there are numerous volumes on history, philosophy, religion,
and science UM and it and the breadth of the books,
I mean, we have books that she was given as
a child, that were given to her by her brothers
(31:48):
um uh you know, for Christmas. And then we also
have the books that she was reading, you know, within
months of her death. And we know that because the
publication date of the book was, you know, just two
months prior to her prior to her dying. And UM,
so it's been just an incredible tool in in deepening
our understanding of what um I would say, her personality
(32:09):
practically springs from the pages and uh and so it's
just a wealth of information for the next generation of
scholars and and storytellers. And we actually are regularly welcoming
scholars who come to peer through the pages to see
what what little timbits of information they might be able
to bleam. It's really a very very special part of
(32:31):
the house. To see those annotated books and to read
the inscriptions, you do feel like you're learning something that
nobody else knows. It's really an insight into her. So
congratulations on being able to get those books returned so
that they could be at the mount today. We are
(32:52):
closely running out of time, and I wanted to just
ask about one of the aspects of her life that's
really less well known. You alluded several times to her
years in France. She lived there before World War One,
she worked with the Red Cross during the war. She
was even awarded the French Legion of Honor. Um what
(33:15):
was it about her devotion to France and what it
meant to her? Well, Um, I think the love of
France probably was seated deeply in Edith when she was
a child. So from the age of four to ten,
the Whartons spent most of their time traveling around Europe. Uh.
And she spent a great deal of time living in
(33:37):
France as well as Germany and Italy. And she was
fluent in French, and she was deeply engrossed in and
I would say influenced by French literature. So her library
includes all the French greats from the balls Act of
Voltaire um and so huge impact there. UM. But I
(34:00):
think it actually was probably um World War One that
really cemented her love for France and the French people.
When the war breaks out, she's actually in England looking
at a property to possibly purchase, and um, there's some
just really beautiful letters that talks about the anguish that
(34:22):
she feels because she's unable to return because the borders
have closed and uh. And it takes her several weeks
or maybe even several months before she's actually admitted back
into the country, and she's just absolutely horrified by the
by the carnage and the and the devastation and um.
(34:43):
And then of course nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen, she
throws herself into humanitarian work on the part of France
and the French, and I think UM, I think that's
where her her love and her loyalties shifted. And I
also think she never was that comfortable in the United States.
She she hated Um, she hated New York, she thought
(35:05):
it was deplorably. She did not feel accepted in Boston,
where she was being too fashionable. And she just loved
the layout and the architecture and the sensibilities of the
European cities, at particularly Paris. And so I think that's
why UM. And then of course towards the I would say,
in the latter third of her life after the war,
(35:26):
Um she is continuing to write prolifically, but I would
say her first passion at that point becomes gardening. And
she purchases this amazing ancient wreck of the chateau on
the Riviera, and Um purchases an entire hillside that goes
with it, and then throws herself into into gardening, and
(35:48):
is um credited in part with actually creating the Mediterranean garden.
The English were starting to settle on the south of France.
The French had no particular or interested in gardens, but
the English had a passion for it, and so she
developed a small group of very close friends and they
took the Mediterranean Garden to tell They really put it
(36:11):
on the map as a as a as a as
a genre of gardening. UM. So that that that also,
I think was important. And I believe she felt that
France um where women and men engaged in society and
conversation together. Uh, that France had more respect for women
and educated them actually better than America did. And so
(36:33):
I think she felt in some ways that the French
were in were superior to to the Americans in terms
of how they organized and structured their lives. Well, I
regret that we can't keep talking about Edith for hours more,
because she is both a fascinating figure and you are
wonderfully descriptive in giving us insights into who she was
(36:58):
and what she did. Before we let you go, Susan,
how can listeners visit them out? Um? Do you have
ongoing events and programs? And if you do, how can
we learn about them? There are numerous ways you can
experience the site. You can take a guided tour with
a person, you can take a self guided tour, or
you can um or you can take an audio tour UM.
(37:22):
We have a beautiful cafe on our terrace which you
can enjoy sort of good food and incredible views. And
then we also have just UM an ongoing roster of
programs UH that include a sculpture exhibit across about fifty
acres thirty large scaled contemporary pieces. We have concerts regularly. UM.
(37:47):
We often have theatrical performances. But again, the best way
to UM to figure out and plan your trip is
to visit our website and to sign up for our
e newsletter, and you could also follow us on social media.
We have a hashtag at the Mount Lennox. Well, thank
you so much, Susan Whistler for this just wonderful conversation,
(38:08):
your great ability to enable us to come to know
and be much smarter about that great literary giant Edith Wharton.
And thank you too for what you've been doing over
the last many years to make the Mount come alive
and be that very special place that it is. It's
so great to have had you with us today. Thank you, Milan,
(38:31):
Thank you. This has been lots of fun and I
hope I haven't talked too much now it's been terrific.
Thank you so much. I learned so much about Edith
Wharton and talking to the remarkable Susan Whistler. Here are
three things I took from that conversation. First, Edith Wharton
(38:52):
remains popular today, more than a hundred years after publication
of her most famous novels and No Wonder. She writes
about women trying to find their way in a culture
that wants to constrain them, and about the expectations are
friends and family place on all of us. Her novels
(39:13):
are compelling and timeless. Second, it's also worth looking at
the other side of Edith Wharton, the house and garden designer.
Check out a copy of her eight seven design Manual,
The Decoration of Houses, for guidelines that never go out
of style. Finally, if you're on the East Coast, try
(39:38):
to visit The Mount, the magnificent estate that Edith Wharton
built in Lenox, Massachusetts. Besides touring the house and grounds,
you can enjoy nature walks, lectures, sculpture, exhibits, music, and
even lunch on the beautiful Terrorists. To learn more, visit
(40:00):
Edith Wharton dot org. Tune in next time to hear
about our next featured woman and discover why she's one
of Seneca's one Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women
to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast
Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner
(40:21):
PNG Have a Great Day.
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