November 25, 2019 • 25 mins
Lt. Colonel George Hardy wanted to be an engineer. Not a cook. But at the start of World War 2, African Americans were only given mess attendant positions in the Navy – the branch he wanted to join. And so, George joined the U.S. Army Air Corps’ prestigious Tuskegee Airmen fighter group instead. Facing segregation at home and abroad, his food stories are weighted with uncomfortable silences and tough self-love. Follow as George travels from Philly to the southern states, over to Italy and back home again, fighting a Double Victory campaign that would change the course of American history forever.
Find archival newspaper articles, photos of George, an episode transcript, and more at www.ServicePodcast.org and on our Instagram and Facebook, where you can also share your stories and leave messages for all of the veterans you hear on Service.
Thank you to Joe Faust of Tuskegee Airmen Inc. for connecting us with George for this episode. We encourage you to learn more at www.TuskegeeAirmen.org, and on Facebook and Instagram. And thank you to Stephen Satterfield of iHeartRadio’s Point of Origin podcast for lending his voice to this episode - subscribe to Point of Origin on Apple podcasts, the iHeartRadio app and
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
What are we fighting for? The best soldiers in the
world are the ones who know what they're fighting for
and to make our soldiers the best and farmed in
the world, the water Fartment has been presenting talks by
a well known person experts in that various fields of
knowledge before our troops and army into stuck. During an
overnight train layover in Rootwi Gi Hospital, Corporal Rupert Trimmingham
(00:26):
awoke hungary and so went out with a few other
soldiers for a bite at the station cafe. The corporal
was told they would only be served if they ate
in the kitchen. They were in Louisiana and these American
soldiers were black. They had black failers underloading ammunition and
(00:47):
loading ammunition and it blew well and killed over a
hundred of them. The black they were just given almost
many of jobs. I get in sense before we get
to camp, show me we see white person walk and
a black person was walking there. The black person and
jump off the curb were Dumfountain. Welcome to Service, Stories
(01:10):
of Hunger and War, a production from I Heart Radio
and Me your host Jacquelin Reposo. So what are we
fighting for? Call to serve in World War two for
those with specific racial and ethnic identities contained huge levels
of hypocrisy. We should be rightly appalled by the Nazi
concentration camps, but as well here in detail in our
(01:33):
episode with laws in Ichirosakai, Japanese American citizens were being
interred here and Jim Crow's segregation laws didn't evaporate when
African Americans entered the armed forces. For most of the war,
troops were entirely segregated, with most black units led by
white officers and many barriers delaying their advancement, but victory
(01:55):
was still the word during this time. We heard Frank
DaVita referred to victory al in his episode in East Jackson, Mississippi.
The Food for Victory Association set up a fair in
August of to educate civilians about how, as the local
Jackson Advocate newspaper put it, without the proper food, we
cannot win the war. And a few months later, a
(02:18):
letter from a reader published in another African American newspaper,
the Pittsburgh Courier, inspired citizens to fight a double V campaign,
a promise to actively support war efforts and encourage not
only victory over fascism abroad, but also victory over racism
at home, those servant were to push and prevail, and
(02:39):
those state side were to keep pressure on politicians and
to keep publishing. George Hardy, a retired lieutenant colonel who
started his career as one of the prestigious Duskegee Airmen
the All African American Fighter Pilot Group, leads us into
this double V world today. Of the one million African
American men who served during World War To, George is
(03:01):
somewhat of an outlier as well. Hear most African American
troops were put into support positions like supply and those
requiring manual labor, but George was a combat pilot. He
doesn't mince words when it comes to some of the
hardships he faced in his pursuit of higher rank. But
like many of his greatest generation, he does brush off
(03:23):
some of this history too, and you'll hear heavy silences
as he reflects. And so. Now, from his quiet home
aside a pond in Sarasota, Florida, let's slow and sit
and spend some time with George Hardy. My name is
(03:45):
George Hardy, and I'm a retired lieutenant colonel, United States
Air Force. However, in World War Two. I was in
the Army because it wasn't a separate air force at
that time, part of the United States Army Air Corps
and then United States Army Air Forces. I was born
in n phil If he was divided in many areas,
(04:06):
you had areas of Africa Americans live, Italians live, Irish
and whatnot. And growing up on Red Street in South Philly,
I went to all the George Smith Elementary School. Now
that school wasn't all Africa American school teachers principles everybody
who goes right on the edge of a black area.
Then I went to Junior High school predominantly white, mainly Italians.
(04:29):
Then I went to Celphodofia High School to ins and
eighty one of my graduating class, only four were Africa American.
So you see how the race was divided into the city.
There was racial tension, but I didn't feel it too much.
I made several friends down there. One of my best
friends was a Jewish kid, and then a couple of
Italian kids, but the only contact A with them was
(04:50):
at school. Two separate lives, two separate friends. Those friends
at school and then those friends at home. And that's
the way life was, but you get used to that
after a while. There were seven of us in my family.
I was next to the oldest. My older brother was
born three. My mother always always at home. She did
(05:11):
the cooking, she did the ironing, she did everything. My
father he had worked and he had come home, and
my father was a disablinaria. But my mother wasn't. What
she would do most is wait until your father comes home.
We got along very well, and I love my father.
I used to tink it with everything around the house,
and I would take things apart. And I remember I
got to the nice clock off the mantelpiece and got
(05:34):
it behind a chair, and my mother caught me. Oh, George,
come here, well, I'll put it back together. No, no, no,
leave it alone, and wait till your father gets home.
And I sweated the rest of the day because he
got home. Eddie, come on and show you what George did.
He looked at me and he shook his head and
he said, you know, Alma, I think he's going to
be an engineer. And he picked up the pieces and
(05:56):
took him to the table, sat down, and while they
put them together that he was talking to me, who
was such wonderful sitting with him. We were just good friends,
and at that moment I decided I wanted to be
an engineer. But when you talk to kids, you've got
to be careful what you say and how you say,
because it may affect them. One little moment can make
the difference in the child's life. They'll tell him which
will be the important point, And that changed my life.
(06:19):
Rather I did anctually get to graduate engineering degrees. Who
my father was from Philadelphia. My father now and then
would fix a special dish that I love, kidney Stu
beef kidneys. When he fixed that, I love to eat
a delicious My mother's from the Bahamas. She's English, from
Spanish and some Indian. But she drank tea, so in
(06:42):
our house we didn't have coffee with at tea. When
I went in the service. For years, I never drank
coffee before I went on a mission. I just drink
a glass of water or glass of milk and fly
my mission. My brother and two of his friends joined
the Navy. My father was upset because of Afro American background.
(07:02):
The Navy own accept them as mess attendants and they
made my brother cook on a small destroyer. I remember
December seventh, Sunday, I was upstairs doing my homework and
I had the radio one to the Eagles football game.
Didn't want my mother to hear it. They interrupted to
mention that Pearl Harbor had been attacked. I didn't tell
(07:27):
any boy about it because I won't ful be listening
to radio in the first place. So my brother been
three in the air few years out over the North
Atlantic in that tin can. A lot of my classmates,
some of them over eight team, so they joined the service.
Remember Pearl Harbor, Remember Pearl Harbor. I couldn't join because
still too young to go into service, but I wanted
to beggest my brother. I got that slip the parents
(07:48):
signed for you, the Navy would take you at seventeen.
Talked to my father. He shook his head and said, no,
I'm not going to sign it, but let's talk about it.
And we talked about it. That is he did to talking.
All I wanted was being engineer. Took science courses, I
made it in math, and now to go around preparing food.
They said, that's real come down, And by time he finished,
I had no desire to go into the Navy as
Miss Attendant. I realized he made sense. I love listening
(08:11):
to him. This country, it all came down from slavery.
After the Civil War, the South, when they got their
rights back, put in play segregation laws and a lot
of those people in the South were in the military,
and so the military was segregated. And that's the way
the country was at that time. You travel through the
South Afri American, you couldn't stay at hotels with whites
(08:34):
or eating any restaurants that separate entrances for Afro Americans
and movie theaters. But it all boiled by the fact
that the slavery was the basis of it, slaves, and
then now people in the South didn't want to mix
with them. That's the way the country was at that time.
No matter what it is, it still our country. We
were not Hitler over here or Jesus. Thing would be
even worse. The Japanese, the way they treated the Chinese,
(08:56):
it was awful. You know that they came here. They
would be after you too because you're different. And so
the thing is you wanted to fight for what you
know rather than what you don't know. You're ready to
fight for your country through all wars we had Afro
Americans fighting for this country just the way life is.
I guess President Roosevelt talking to the military about Afro
(09:20):
American pilots, nay share what we can't have are for
American pilots because the services segregated and all the flying
squadrons of white President of why can't we have a
black flying squadron. So they prepared for a black flying
squadron ninety nine and they've selected Tuskegee because TuS Key
had been involved in the civilian pilot training program to
(09:41):
prepare pilots because of what was happening in Europe and
someone decided to do this. They felt that Tuskey had
the best program and good flying weather. And Tuskey you
had to hire civilian instructors, black instructors to train them
to fly. And now I wanted to fly an airplane.
The Battle of Britain, the fighter planes save Britain, and
Germany is going to invade Britain, but they're going to
soften it up with the Luffwaffe. The English were first
(10:03):
people who use radar. They were able to keep their
fighter planes on the ground until the German planes got
close enough than the fighter planes took off and they
had full fuel tanks. Germans flying from France. They have
to go back before too long. The fighter pilots beat
them back, and so the Battle of Britain was wanted
the fighters. In June forty two, the Japanese is going
to take the island of Midway and came with these
(10:24):
four carriers. We ended up sinking all four of those carriers.
So the air, hey, that's that's great center. As Churchill said,
never in the field of human country for so much
owed by so many to show too. And so I
decided in forty three I wanted to fly watching forty
(10:50):
three the Army and the Navy said, if you are
seventeen and a high school graduate, you can take the example.
He averred that, and what did I do? I'm still
think Navy past exam and they realized who I was
from my birth certificate, and they failed me on my
physical because some problem with my wisdom teeth. I went
to the dynasty. He said, there's nothing wrong to your teeth.
(11:12):
He said, they just don't want you. Then said, well,
I'll go to the Army. They sent me home until
I turned eighteen to report of July active duty orders
to go to Keyston Army Airfield and Bloxy, Mississippi, for
basic training. They put us on the train, three of
us from Philadelphia. We're all going to Tuskegee after the break.
(11:35):
And then the captain turned to the driver and said,
where can he eat, pointing to me. Stay with us. MHM.
(12:02):
Welcome back to service stories of hunger and war from
my Heart Radio. I'm Jacqueline Roposo and we're here with
retired Lieutenant Colonel George Hardy. He's on a train leaving
Philadelphia and route to becoming a fighter pilot in the U. S.
Army Air Corps. There's actually more to Corporal Trimmingham's train
station story. Back at that cafe, two dozen guarded German
(12:24):
POWs then sat in the dining room, eating, talking, smoking,
having what appeared to be a swell time. What is
the Negro soldier fighting for? He then questioned, in a
letter to Yank Military Magazine. Are we not American soldiers
sworn to fight and die if need be for this
(12:45):
our country? Then why are they treated better than we are?
Rather than the specifics of what was in his k
rations or base camp food, George is more apt to
similarly recall the circumstances around which he was able to
eat were not to eat, And as Trimmingham noted, whether
or not you're included really matters when you're putting your
(13:06):
life on the line for all of your fellow citizens
and being asked to trust those around you with it.
Let's continue with George's journey. Now, this isn't the first
time we've boarded a train with a serviceman. Check out
our first episode with Pat d Ambrosio and you might
hear a difference in how they recount their experiences. They
(13:33):
gave us Pullman tickets, which surprised us. Three privates from
Philophia Vienno Railroad to Cincinnati, and that was really great.
We're in a Pullman car at the two berths on
each side, so we had that section and the other
people were in the rest of the car, most of
them are white. But then when we got to Cincinnati,
they switched to the L and N Railroad and we
(13:53):
still had Pullman tickets and we were the only Afro
Americans in this car. So everything was fine, except when
we went to eat to the dining car. Leaving Cincinnati
go to the South and the laudess I'll say white
and colored must be separated as far as eating. So
they had a heavy curtain across with a few tables
behind it. For Afro American we had to go through
to the dining car and then sit behind the curtain.
(14:16):
And the curtain was waited so that someone went through
it with blows on the bottom. And that's where we
had to eat. When we went through the South do
we got to be LuxI, Mississippi. But that's okay. Well
we got the Keyston and then things got worse because
once they got the keys the ups face we were
absolutely segregator. We're on em barracks. We trained separately. We
(14:37):
had a separate mess hall. We'd go to the firing range.
Whenever we were there, we were the only ones there.
Other time whites would use it. And then went to
Tuskegee in September called his Training Attachment. We had some
good instructors of for American guys. They taught us in
the pt nineteen and that's what I flew in. It
was just a lot of fun. I was still eighteen
(14:58):
when I learned to fly a received my wings as
a pilot and my commission as a second lieutenant, and
you know, the racial problems keep coming in here. I
was selected to go to a gunnery mate out in Texas.
They have a competition with the top gunners. Somehow they
picked me to go, and that was the experience I
(15:19):
I didn't like to go to the gun remat. We
went out in two T six is. A captain flew
one and I rode in a back seat with him
and a lieutenant, both of them a white instructors. I'm
the one in the contest. So the first thing we
do is went to a naval basset La puncher train
just outside of New Orleans. Well, I knew the navy
was segregated, but captain went ahead and I got out
(15:41):
to him and said, well, he can sleep around there.
I went and washed up and got dressed, put my
uniform on, and went to the captain's door to find
out what we're gonna do about eating, because he's in charge.
He wasn't there. I went down, I said, you know
where the captains? Oh, he and the lieutenant they went
into New Orleans. They left me. Didn't you tell me
where they're going? So I caught the bus win in
(16:01):
New Orleans and got something to eat and came back
the next day. Of the meat went off and I
didn't win anything. It was just not the nicest affair.
They wanted to go to Houston before they went back
to Tuskegee, so we went to Ellington Field and landed there.
I guess they realized what happened, and the captain said,
I have a vehicle that's gonna pick us up and
(16:22):
take us into town. You can ride with us, and
after we dropped off, you can go to where you
want to go. And we got in this vehicle and
the driver, the captain and lieutenant and meet and they
asked where's the best stakes in town? And he said, well,
you go to ship ahoydu. Most people go there, So
he took him there and then he pulled up in
front of the ship Ahoy and a lot of officers
(16:42):
standing around. And then the captain turned to the driver
and said, where can he eat? Winning to me and
the drivers looked at me and said right in there,
And the captain looked at the lieutenant and they said,
come on, let's go, So the three of us would
in there. So I eat in that restaurant with them,
and that night a lot of dancing in an egg
and as glad lights were dark, but they had a
(17:05):
good steak. I went over in February a fighter Squadron
three second Fighter Group station in a base called Rama Telly.
I just ate in the miss hole. Everything they had
where they had, I ate it. You had to have
(17:25):
a good meal first thing, breakfast and breakfast. I would
fill up on breakfast and I just ate anything I
could get, except that the military had powdered eggs, and
I hated those powdered eggs. I got a cigarette ration.
I didn't smoke cigarettes, so I would take my cigarettes
and trade them to the Italians for eggs. I forget
how my eggs you can get for a pack of cigarettes,
(17:46):
and I would take my eggs to the cook and
ask them to fix my eggs sunnyside up. And that's
what I did for breakfast over there. I hate everything
else they had, but I didn't like booth powdered eggs.
If you look at the map of it Le, there's
a spur out on the eastern side. We're just right
(18:07):
at that point. That's where Ramatelli was. We talked to
the east. By time gear came up, you out over
the Adriatic. I flew a fight airplane fight. Airplane is
a plane that has guns on it. The D models
we have six machine guns on it. Only one person
in the airplane, and so it's a fast airplane. When
you're flying airplane, if you look straight ahead, you're looking
through your gun sight and you aim your airplane and
(18:29):
you have your gun sight up there. You just put
the thing on the target and the triggers on your
stick that you use a control airplane. Every time you
pull the trigger, the six guns would fly through anose plane. Now,
the bomber airplanes they carry bombs to bomb over Germany.
We had those scoops in Italy. They would take off,
get in formation and fly at high altitude to drop
(18:50):
bombs on factories and things not in Germany, and the
Germans would send up fighters to shoot them down. We
would escort the bombers to fight the German airplanes in
the air. That was our job to protect the bombers.
So that was what I did. By the time I
got over there, there weren't many German airplanes left. The
only time I fired my guns was on strafeing missions.
(19:12):
Sometimes on a short mission. After the bombers are safe,
you'd go back over Germany and look at targets of opportunity, trains,
barges or trucks on the highway. You want to make
sure the Germans can't move equipment and stuff around. Or
I love to shoot an engine because they tend to
blow up. But sometimes the targets fired back at you.
So there you could see the shells coming back. You
(19:34):
can't see the MAXI. But yeah, I tell you that
something is happening. It pumps up the Germans and that's
the reason they want to get younger people to do that.
A guy forty some years old, so are you crazy.
I'm not gonna go down there. There's guns down there.
But a guy eighteen, nineteen years old, he's going down.
The captain says, do this. You're going to turn in
and go down and space people because the guy head
(19:55):
you said, listen, and you follow him down. And that's
the way you learn. You don't have the fear of
I can't do that. When you go to pilot training,
I can do anything. I went over in February nine
and I flew twenty one missions in March and April,
and then the war ended in maya forty five. I
got up to Milan and places like that, but the
(20:17):
Italians didn't have the restaurants and things like that that
they had today, so you didn't enjoy that much. Most
of the people they had very little, and a lot
of them would come around to try to work to
do things for you. That's how I got my eggs,
people coming to bar the things they wanted to get cigarettes. Remember,
they fought a lot in Italy up the East coast
and was tough fighting. The Germans have destroyed a lot
(20:39):
of stuff before they would give it up. The Italians
had a real rebuilding job to recover from that. In
World War One, the other Germans didn't think they were
really beaten. They felt they were betrayed by their leaders
because they still had a full army and they surrendered.
But in World War Two they were completely devastated and
so no more of that. And the Japanese we weren't
sure about invading a pan We estimate and we would
(21:01):
lose at least half a million man because the Japanese
wouldn't surrender on these islands. But once they were completely beaten,
now it's a different world. They've got to survive. I survive,
and good Lord boldly through so I survive. I can
survive anything. We're leaving George mid story. He returned home
(21:27):
from Italy and moved to New York to continue his
education and be closer to his future wife, Beatrice, and
they started what would be their family of four children.
But then there was many moving parts of the Double
V campaign started coming together. Trimmingham and Yank Magazine received
hundreds of letters in response supporting Trimmingham's questioning of democracy,
(21:49):
and it was later considered a milestone for moving the
cause forward. Then there were the accomplishments of African American
troops abroad. As a group, the Tuskege Airmen flew fifteen
thousand sorties over two years. Sorties are short attack missions.
They captured or destroyed two hundred and seventy five German planes,
(22:10):
one thousand trains or trucks, and a German destroyer, and
the Germans only downed twenty five of the group's bombers.
The next successful squadron had an equivalent average of forty
six downed planes. Then the Army conducted a classified survey
of two hundred and fifty white officers who had served
with black soldiers. Sixty four percent admitted to initial skepticism
(22:33):
about integration, but after having served together, seventy seven percent
had a more favorable view, and while sixty nine percent
said they performed the same as white troops, seventeen percents
said they performed even better than them. Yet, from all
branches of service, no African American World War Two veterans
were given the Medal of Honor until when seven were,
(22:58):
with only one, Vernon Baker, still alive to receive it. Still,
the double V campaign triumphed when President Truman finally signed
Executive Order one into effect in desegregating the armed forces entirely,
and George was recruited to return and help fortify the
now independent Air Force. He joined back up soon, flying
(23:22):
combat missions on bombers in the Korean War, and as
a forty five year old lieutenant colonel, he then flew
in Vietnam. So we're going to hear more from George
incoming seasons. There is so much about the landscape behind
George's story that was omitted from our classroom history books.
You can find some links to archival newspapers, photos, and
(23:42):
more on our Instagram and Facebook. We are at Service
Podcast and at George's page at Service podcast dot org
and You can hear more of George in our for
the Mechanically Minded episode, a short primer on military production.
In our next episode, we board a ship with William
walk Her, Chief Petty Officer first Class of the Navy.
(24:03):
As William travels the Pacific, will incidentally hear more about
the double V campaign from his ship's food holds back
to the diner counter. I want to share one more clip.
George was married to Beatrice for twenty five years and
then to his second wife, Bonnie for almost the same
before she passed, and he's close with his children and
(24:24):
two stepchildren too. Considering how our first six veterans this
season are all widowers, I asked George how he keeps
going after so much time fighting it ends up. While
the mess hall life wasn't for him all those years ago,
it is food service now that helps to keep him
in the light. I work in the food pamtry two
(24:46):
days a week, serve up the nineties some people and
do what I can. I will help anybody who someone
needs help. Someone's got to do. It just won't be
me Service. As a production from I Heart Radio and Me.
Coln Riposo, our supervising producer, is Gabrielle Collins. Our executive producer,
Christopher hasiotis Steven Satterfield voice Corporal Trimmingham for us, and
(25:08):
I urge you to check out steven show Point of
Origin right now on the I Heart Radio app or
wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you to Joe Faust
of Tuskegee Airman, Inc. For connecting us with George for
this episode. I highly recommend you explore more at Tuskegee
Airman dot org. And thank you to Mike at the
Sarasota Airport Hurts rental desk. He told me that when
veterans come through, everyone in rentals comes out to stand
(25:31):
in their appreciation. And I think these gestures of respect matter.
Let's keep doing them and talking about them. Thank you
for listening, and thank you those who are serving and
those who have served
What are we fighting for? The best soldiers in the
world are the ones who know what they're fighting for
and to make our soldiers the best and farmed in
the world, the water Fartment has been presenting talks by
a well known person experts in that various fields of
knowledge before our troops and army into stuck. During an
overnight train layover in Rootwi Gi Hospital, Corporal Rupert Trimmingham
(00:26):
awoke hungary and so went out with a few other
soldiers for a bite at the station cafe. The corporal
was told they would only be served if they ate
in the kitchen. They were in Louisiana and these American
soldiers were black. They had black failers underloading ammunition and
(00:47):
loading ammunition and it blew well and killed over a
hundred of them. The black they were just given almost
many of jobs. I get in sense before we get
to camp, show me we see white person walk and
a black person was walking there. The black person and
jump off the curb were Dumfountain. Welcome to Service, Stories
(01:10):
of Hunger and War, a production from I Heart Radio
and Me your host Jacquelin Reposo. So what are we
fighting for? Call to serve in World War two for
those with specific racial and ethnic identities contained huge levels
of hypocrisy. We should be rightly appalled by the Nazi
concentration camps, but as well here in detail in our
(01:33):
episode with laws in Ichirosakai, Japanese American citizens were being
interred here and Jim Crow's segregation laws didn't evaporate when
African Americans entered the armed forces. For most of the war,
troops were entirely segregated, with most black units led by
white officers and many barriers delaying their advancement, but victory
(01:55):
was still the word during this time. We heard Frank
DaVita referred to victory al in his episode in East Jackson, Mississippi.
The Food for Victory Association set up a fair in
August of to educate civilians about how, as the local
Jackson Advocate newspaper put it, without the proper food, we
cannot win the war. And a few months later, a
(02:18):
letter from a reader published in another African American newspaper,
the Pittsburgh Courier, inspired citizens to fight a double V campaign,
a promise to actively support war efforts and encourage not
only victory over fascism abroad, but also victory over racism
at home, those servant were to push and prevail, and
(02:39):
those state side were to keep pressure on politicians and
to keep publishing. George Hardy, a retired lieutenant colonel who
started his career as one of the prestigious Duskegee Airmen
the All African American Fighter Pilot Group, leads us into
this double V world today. Of the one million African
American men who served during World War To, George is
(03:01):
somewhat of an outlier as well. Hear most African American
troops were put into support positions like supply and those
requiring manual labor, but George was a combat pilot. He
doesn't mince words when it comes to some of the
hardships he faced in his pursuit of higher rank. But
like many of his greatest generation, he does brush off
(03:23):
some of this history too, and you'll hear heavy silences
as he reflects. And so. Now, from his quiet home
aside a pond in Sarasota, Florida, let's slow and sit
and spend some time with George Hardy. My name is
(03:45):
George Hardy, and I'm a retired lieutenant colonel, United States
Air Force. However, in World War Two. I was in
the Army because it wasn't a separate air force at
that time, part of the United States Army Air Corps
and then United States Army Air Forces. I was born
in n phil If he was divided in many areas,
(04:06):
you had areas of Africa Americans live, Italians live, Irish
and whatnot. And growing up on Red Street in South Philly,
I went to all the George Smith Elementary School. Now
that school wasn't all Africa American school teachers principles everybody
who goes right on the edge of a black area.
Then I went to Junior High school predominantly white, mainly Italians.
(04:29):
Then I went to Celphodofia High School to ins and
eighty one of my graduating class, only four were Africa American.
So you see how the race was divided into the city.
There was racial tension, but I didn't feel it too much.
I made several friends down there. One of my best
friends was a Jewish kid, and then a couple of
Italian kids, but the only contact A with them was
(04:50):
at school. Two separate lives, two separate friends. Those friends
at school and then those friends at home. And that's
the way life was, but you get used to that
after a while. There were seven of us in my family.
I was next to the oldest. My older brother was
born three. My mother always always at home. She did
(05:11):
the cooking, she did the ironing, she did everything. My
father he had worked and he had come home, and
my father was a disablinaria. But my mother wasn't. What
she would do most is wait until your father comes home.
We got along very well, and I love my father.
I used to tink it with everything around the house,
and I would take things apart. And I remember I
got to the nice clock off the mantelpiece and got
(05:34):
it behind a chair, and my mother caught me. Oh, George,
come here, well, I'll put it back together. No, no, no,
leave it alone, and wait till your father gets home.
And I sweated the rest of the day because he
got home. Eddie, come on and show you what George did.
He looked at me and he shook his head and
he said, you know, Alma, I think he's going to
be an engineer. And he picked up the pieces and
(05:56):
took him to the table, sat down, and while they
put them together that he was talking to me, who
was such wonderful sitting with him. We were just good friends,
and at that moment I decided I wanted to be
an engineer. But when you talk to kids, you've got
to be careful what you say and how you say,
because it may affect them. One little moment can make
the difference in the child's life. They'll tell him which
will be the important point, And that changed my life.
(06:19):
Rather I did anctually get to graduate engineering degrees. Who
my father was from Philadelphia. My father now and then
would fix a special dish that I love, kidney Stu
beef kidneys. When he fixed that, I love to eat
a delicious My mother's from the Bahamas. She's English, from
Spanish and some Indian. But she drank tea, so in
(06:42):
our house we didn't have coffee with at tea. When
I went in the service. For years, I never drank
coffee before I went on a mission. I just drink
a glass of water or glass of milk and fly
my mission. My brother and two of his friends joined
the Navy. My father was upset because of Afro American background.
(07:02):
The Navy own accept them as mess attendants and they
made my brother cook on a small destroyer. I remember
December seventh, Sunday, I was upstairs doing my homework and
I had the radio one to the Eagles football game.
Didn't want my mother to hear it. They interrupted to
mention that Pearl Harbor had been attacked. I didn't tell
(07:27):
any boy about it because I won't ful be listening
to radio in the first place. So my brother been
three in the air few years out over the North
Atlantic in that tin can. A lot of my classmates,
some of them over eight team, so they joined the service.
Remember Pearl Harbor, Remember Pearl Harbor. I couldn't join because
still too young to go into service, but I wanted
to beggest my brother. I got that slip the parents
(07:48):
signed for you, the Navy would take you at seventeen.
Talked to my father. He shook his head and said, no,
I'm not going to sign it, but let's talk about it.
And we talked about it. That is he did to talking.
All I wanted was being engineer. Took science courses, I
made it in math, and now to go around preparing food.
They said, that's real come down, And by time he finished,
I had no desire to go into the Navy as
Miss Attendant. I realized he made sense. I love listening
(08:11):
to him. This country, it all came down from slavery.
After the Civil War, the South, when they got their
rights back, put in play segregation laws and a lot
of those people in the South were in the military,
and so the military was segregated. And that's the way
the country was at that time. You travel through the
South Afri American, you couldn't stay at hotels with whites
(08:34):
or eating any restaurants that separate entrances for Afro Americans
and movie theaters. But it all boiled by the fact
that the slavery was the basis of it, slaves, and
then now people in the South didn't want to mix
with them. That's the way the country was at that time.
No matter what it is, it still our country. We
were not Hitler over here or Jesus. Thing would be
even worse. The Japanese, the way they treated the Chinese,
(08:56):
it was awful. You know that they came here. They
would be after you too because you're different. And so
the thing is you wanted to fight for what you
know rather than what you don't know. You're ready to
fight for your country through all wars we had Afro
Americans fighting for this country just the way life is.
I guess President Roosevelt talking to the military about Afro
(09:20):
American pilots, nay share what we can't have are for
American pilots because the services segregated and all the flying
squadrons of white President of why can't we have a
black flying squadron. So they prepared for a black flying
squadron ninety nine and they've selected Tuskegee because TuS Key
had been involved in the civilian pilot training program to
(09:41):
prepare pilots because of what was happening in Europe and
someone decided to do this. They felt that Tuskey had
the best program and good flying weather. And Tuskey you
had to hire civilian instructors, black instructors to train them
to fly. And now I wanted to fly an airplane.
The Battle of Britain, the fighter planes save Britain, and
Germany is going to invade Britain, but they're going to
soften it up with the Luffwaffe. The English were first
(10:03):
people who use radar. They were able to keep their
fighter planes on the ground until the German planes got
close enough than the fighter planes took off and they
had full fuel tanks. Germans flying from France. They have
to go back before too long. The fighter pilots beat
them back, and so the Battle of Britain was wanted
the fighters. In June forty two, the Japanese is going
to take the island of Midway and came with these
(10:24):
four carriers. We ended up sinking all four of those carriers.
So the air, hey, that's that's great center. As Churchill said,
never in the field of human country for so much
owed by so many to show too. And so I
decided in forty three I wanted to fly watching forty
(10:50):
three the Army and the Navy said, if you are
seventeen and a high school graduate, you can take the example.
He averred that, and what did I do? I'm still
think Navy past exam and they realized who I was
from my birth certificate, and they failed me on my
physical because some problem with my wisdom teeth. I went
to the dynasty. He said, there's nothing wrong to your teeth.
(11:12):
He said, they just don't want you. Then said, well,
I'll go to the Army. They sent me home until
I turned eighteen to report of July active duty orders
to go to Keyston Army Airfield and Bloxy, Mississippi, for
basic training. They put us on the train, three of
us from Philadelphia. We're all going to Tuskegee after the break.
(11:35):
And then the captain turned to the driver and said,
where can he eat, pointing to me. Stay with us. MHM.
(12:02):
Welcome back to service stories of hunger and war from
my Heart Radio. I'm Jacqueline Roposo and we're here with
retired Lieutenant Colonel George Hardy. He's on a train leaving
Philadelphia and route to becoming a fighter pilot in the U. S.
Army Air Corps. There's actually more to Corporal Trimmingham's train
station story. Back at that cafe, two dozen guarded German
(12:24):
POWs then sat in the dining room, eating, talking, smoking,
having what appeared to be a swell time. What is
the Negro soldier fighting for? He then questioned, in a
letter to Yank Military Magazine. Are we not American soldiers
sworn to fight and die if need be for this
(12:45):
our country? Then why are they treated better than we are?
Rather than the specifics of what was in his k
rations or base camp food, George is more apt to
similarly recall the circumstances around which he was able to
eat were not to eat, And as Trimmingham noted, whether
or not you're included really matters when you're putting your
(13:06):
life on the line for all of your fellow citizens
and being asked to trust those around you with it.
Let's continue with George's journey. Now, this isn't the first
time we've boarded a train with a serviceman. Check out
our first episode with Pat d Ambrosio and you might
hear a difference in how they recount their experiences. They
(13:33):
gave us Pullman tickets, which surprised us. Three privates from
Philophia Vienno Railroad to Cincinnati, and that was really great.
We're in a Pullman car at the two berths on
each side, so we had that section and the other
people were in the rest of the car, most of
them are white. But then when we got to Cincinnati,
they switched to the L and N Railroad and we
(13:53):
still had Pullman tickets and we were the only Afro
Americans in this car. So everything was fine, except when
we went to eat to the dining car. Leaving Cincinnati
go to the South and the laudess I'll say white
and colored must be separated as far as eating. So
they had a heavy curtain across with a few tables
behind it. For Afro American we had to go through
to the dining car and then sit behind the curtain.
(14:16):
And the curtain was waited so that someone went through
it with blows on the bottom. And that's where we
had to eat. When we went through the South do
we got to be LuxI, Mississippi. But that's okay. Well
we got the Keyston and then things got worse because
once they got the keys the ups face we were
absolutely segregator. We're on em barracks. We trained separately. We
(14:37):
had a separate mess hall. We'd go to the firing range.
Whenever we were there, we were the only ones there.
Other time whites would use it. And then went to
Tuskegee in September called his Training Attachment. We had some
good instructors of for American guys. They taught us in
the pt nineteen and that's what I flew in. It
was just a lot of fun. I was still eighteen
(14:58):
when I learned to fly a received my wings as
a pilot and my commission as a second lieutenant, and
you know, the racial problems keep coming in here. I
was selected to go to a gunnery mate out in Texas.
They have a competition with the top gunners. Somehow they
picked me to go, and that was the experience I
(15:19):
I didn't like to go to the gun remat. We
went out in two T six is. A captain flew
one and I rode in a back seat with him
and a lieutenant, both of them a white instructors. I'm
the one in the contest. So the first thing we
do is went to a naval basset La puncher train
just outside of New Orleans. Well, I knew the navy
was segregated, but captain went ahead and I got out
(15:41):
to him and said, well, he can sleep around there.
I went and washed up and got dressed, put my
uniform on, and went to the captain's door to find
out what we're gonna do about eating, because he's in charge.
He wasn't there. I went down, I said, you know
where the captains? Oh, he and the lieutenant they went
into New Orleans. They left me. Didn't you tell me
where they're going? So I caught the bus win in
(16:01):
New Orleans and got something to eat and came back
the next day. Of the meat went off and I
didn't win anything. It was just not the nicest affair.
They wanted to go to Houston before they went back
to Tuskegee, so we went to Ellington Field and landed there.
I guess they realized what happened, and the captain said,
I have a vehicle that's gonna pick us up and
(16:22):
take us into town. You can ride with us, and
after we dropped off, you can go to where you
want to go. And we got in this vehicle and
the driver, the captain and lieutenant and meet and they
asked where's the best stakes in town? And he said, well,
you go to ship ahoydu. Most people go there, So
he took him there and then he pulled up in
front of the ship Ahoy and a lot of officers
(16:42):
standing around. And then the captain turned to the driver
and said, where can he eat? Winning to me and
the drivers looked at me and said right in there,
And the captain looked at the lieutenant and they said,
come on, let's go, So the three of us would
in there. So I eat in that restaurant with them,
and that night a lot of dancing in an egg
and as glad lights were dark, but they had a
(17:05):
good steak. I went over in February a fighter Squadron
three second Fighter Group station in a base called Rama Telly.
I just ate in the miss hole. Everything they had
where they had, I ate it. You had to have
(17:25):
a good meal first thing, breakfast and breakfast. I would
fill up on breakfast and I just ate anything I
could get, except that the military had powdered eggs, and
I hated those powdered eggs. I got a cigarette ration.
I didn't smoke cigarettes, so I would take my cigarettes
and trade them to the Italians for eggs. I forget
how my eggs you can get for a pack of cigarettes,
(17:46):
and I would take my eggs to the cook and
ask them to fix my eggs sunnyside up. And that's
what I did for breakfast over there. I hate everything
else they had, but I didn't like booth powdered eggs.
If you look at the map of it Le, there's
a spur out on the eastern side. We're just right
(18:07):
at that point. That's where Ramatelli was. We talked to
the east. By time gear came up, you out over
the Adriatic. I flew a fight airplane fight. Airplane is
a plane that has guns on it. The D models
we have six machine guns on it. Only one person
in the airplane, and so it's a fast airplane. When
you're flying airplane, if you look straight ahead, you're looking
through your gun sight and you aim your airplane and
(18:29):
you have your gun sight up there. You just put
the thing on the target and the triggers on your
stick that you use a control airplane. Every time you
pull the trigger, the six guns would fly through anose plane. Now,
the bomber airplanes they carry bombs to bomb over Germany.
We had those scoops in Italy. They would take off,
get in formation and fly at high altitude to drop
(18:50):
bombs on factories and things not in Germany, and the
Germans would send up fighters to shoot them down. We
would escort the bombers to fight the German airplanes in
the air. That was our job to protect the bombers.
So that was what I did. By the time I
got over there, there weren't many German airplanes left. The
only time I fired my guns was on strafeing missions.
(19:12):
Sometimes on a short mission. After the bombers are safe,
you'd go back over Germany and look at targets of opportunity, trains,
barges or trucks on the highway. You want to make
sure the Germans can't move equipment and stuff around. Or
I love to shoot an engine because they tend to
blow up. But sometimes the targets fired back at you.
So there you could see the shells coming back. You
(19:34):
can't see the MAXI. But yeah, I tell you that
something is happening. It pumps up the Germans and that's
the reason they want to get younger people to do that.
A guy forty some years old, so are you crazy.
I'm not gonna go down there. There's guns down there.
But a guy eighteen, nineteen years old, he's going down.
The captain says, do this. You're going to turn in
and go down and space people because the guy head
(19:55):
you said, listen, and you follow him down. And that's
the way you learn. You don't have the fear of
I can't do that. When you go to pilot training,
I can do anything. I went over in February nine
and I flew twenty one missions in March and April,
and then the war ended in maya forty five. I
got up to Milan and places like that, but the
(20:17):
Italians didn't have the restaurants and things like that that
they had today, so you didn't enjoy that much. Most
of the people they had very little, and a lot
of them would come around to try to work to
do things for you. That's how I got my eggs,
people coming to bar the things they wanted to get cigarettes. Remember,
they fought a lot in Italy up the East coast
and was tough fighting. The Germans have destroyed a lot
(20:39):
of stuff before they would give it up. The Italians
had a real rebuilding job to recover from that. In
World War One, the other Germans didn't think they were
really beaten. They felt they were betrayed by their leaders
because they still had a full army and they surrendered.
But in World War Two they were completely devastated and
so no more of that. And the Japanese we weren't
sure about invading a pan We estimate and we would
(21:01):
lose at least half a million man because the Japanese
wouldn't surrender on these islands. But once they were completely beaten,
now it's a different world. They've got to survive. I survive,
and good Lord boldly through so I survive. I can
survive anything. We're leaving George mid story. He returned home
(21:27):
from Italy and moved to New York to continue his
education and be closer to his future wife, Beatrice, and
they started what would be their family of four children.
But then there was many moving parts of the Double
V campaign started coming together. Trimmingham and Yank Magazine received
hundreds of letters in response supporting Trimmingham's questioning of democracy,
(21:49):
and it was later considered a milestone for moving the
cause forward. Then there were the accomplishments of African American
troops abroad. As a group, the Tuskege Airmen flew fifteen
thousand sorties over two years. Sorties are short attack missions.
They captured or destroyed two hundred and seventy five German planes,
(22:10):
one thousand trains or trucks, and a German destroyer, and
the Germans only downed twenty five of the group's bombers.
The next successful squadron had an equivalent average of forty
six downed planes. Then the Army conducted a classified survey
of two hundred and fifty white officers who had served
with black soldiers. Sixty four percent admitted to initial skepticism
(22:33):
about integration, but after having served together, seventy seven percent
had a more favorable view, and while sixty nine percent
said they performed the same as white troops, seventeen percents
said they performed even better than them. Yet, from all
branches of service, no African American World War Two veterans
were given the Medal of Honor until when seven were,
(22:58):
with only one, Vernon Baker, still alive to receive it. Still,
the double V campaign triumphed when President Truman finally signed
Executive Order one into effect in desegregating the armed forces entirely,
and George was recruited to return and help fortify the
now independent Air Force. He joined back up soon, flying
(23:22):
combat missions on bombers in the Korean War, and as
a forty five year old lieutenant colonel, he then flew
in Vietnam. So we're going to hear more from George
incoming seasons. There is so much about the landscape behind
George's story that was omitted from our classroom history books.
You can find some links to archival newspapers, photos, and
(23:42):
more on our Instagram and Facebook. We are at Service
Podcast and at George's page at Service podcast dot org
and You can hear more of George in our for
the Mechanically Minded episode, a short primer on military production.
In our next episode, we board a ship with William
walk Her, Chief Petty Officer first Class of the Navy.
(24:03):
As William travels the Pacific, will incidentally hear more about
the double V campaign from his ship's food holds back
to the diner counter. I want to share one more clip.
George was married to Beatrice for twenty five years and
then to his second wife, Bonnie for almost the same
before she passed, and he's close with his children and
(24:24):
two stepchildren too. Considering how our first six veterans this
season are all widowers, I asked George how he keeps
going after so much time fighting it ends up. While
the mess hall life wasn't for him all those years ago,
it is food service now that helps to keep him
in the light. I work in the food pamtry two
(24:46):
days a week, serve up the nineties some people and
do what I can. I will help anybody who someone
needs help. Someone's got to do. It just won't be
me Service. As a production from I Heart Radio and Me.
Coln Riposo, our supervising producer, is Gabrielle Collins. Our executive producer,
Christopher hasiotis Steven Satterfield voice Corporal Trimmingham for us, and
(25:08):
I urge you to check out steven show Point of
Origin right now on the I Heart Radio app or
wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you to Joe Faust
of Tuskegee Airman, Inc. For connecting us with George for
this episode. I highly recommend you explore more at Tuskegee
Airman dot org. And thank you to Mike at the
Sarasota Airport Hurts rental desk. He told me that when
veterans come through, everyone in rentals comes out to stand
(25:31):
in their appreciation. And I think these gestures of respect matter.
Let's keep doing them and talking about them. Thank you
for listening, and thank you those who are serving and
those who have served
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